prejudice for men with long hair [Archive] - The Long Hair Community Discussion Boards

flapjack

July 3rd, 2008, 07:04 PM

I don't have a preference for short or long hair on men. Whatever looks best with the shape of their face and if it's long, they should try to refrain from letting it look like a bird's nest (some guys just don't care at all but with long hair, you do have to care a little bit or you don't look presentable in public, imo).

So to me, it just doesn't matter. But I will admit that if there is a good-looking guy with long, nice hair walking by, I'll take extra notice over an equally good-looking guy next to him with short hair because I'm a nerd about hair, anyway. I'd be willing to date either one, sure... but the guy with the long hair will get extra glances, hahahaha.

As far as prejudice in public, yes, a lot of men with long hair around the world still deal with negative stereotypes and attitudes towards their hair. Many of the men in my family have long hair and they could tell you all kinds of stories. The men I know just ignore it or say something to embarrass the person. My dad straight up tells people "My hair is better than most women's... now, don't be jealous" and it's pretty hilarious. As with anything else in life that people feel the need to make an issue when it's silly... if you just make them feel like an idiot, they'll usually be quiet about it.

EdG

July 3rd, 2008, 07:07 PM

This is a regular topic on the men's long hair hyperboard. The best advice is to ignore negative comments.

I received negative comments only a few times when I was much younger and starting to grow my hair. I haven't received any negative comments in recent years. I suspect this is because people tend not to question the wisdom of an older man, especially one who obviously has had long hair for a very long time. :)
Ed

Gumball

July 3rd, 2008, 07:22 PM

I think it depends on the locale and the individuals therein on how reactions are. Sometimes nobody says anything. I'd have to say that happens more often than not. I get the occasional "How long have you been growing?" and "Are you going to cut it?" First answer is "A while" and second is "Yes." When I hear the "How short?" I usually say "A half inch shorter."

If I get snark, depending on the situation, sometimes I give a little snark back. I had a teenage boy walk up and say "You know girls have long hair." I looked at him and said "You know women wear pants." and he shut his mouth. Showed him the absurdity of his remark.

Really I tend to brush things off. People are well enough entitled to their own opinion and unless they really push it to the point where it's just too much then why not just walk away? Wherever I've worked I've never really had any hassle from people either, but that could also be luck, too.

I like my hair, luckily my SO likes my hair. I think I'm good to go!

ETA: Also like Gylfi said usually if I ended up getting comments they'd align more to the positive than anything else.

Naluin

July 3rd, 2008, 07:44 PM

I had a teenage boy walk up and say "You know girls have long hair." I looked at him and said "You know women wear pants." and he shut his mouth. Showed him the absurdity of his remark.

:rollin: That was a great comeback.

bruteforcegrl

July 3rd, 2008, 07:45 PM

What is wrong with people that they feel the need to share unsolicited criticism? I think "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything." would be a fine rule for everyone to live by. I am so fond of long hair on men; I don't want other people creating any obstacles to their growing it. Beards, either. :heartbeat
bfg

galen

July 3rd, 2008, 07:52 PM

The only reactions/comments that I have received so far are from 4-5 year old boys who seem to be "freaked-out" about my long hair.

It's therapy time, kiddies.

nowxisxforever

July 3rd, 2008, 07:55 PM

We don't seem to have much here. My boyfriend has BSL length hair and I have tons of male coworkers with hair between shoulderblades and Classic.

Siava

July 3rd, 2008, 08:22 PM

I've barely ever been razzed for growing my hair. The overwhelming majority of comments that I receive are positive. It's likely that he's getting more comments because nobody has adjusted to seeing him with longer hair? I don't have many other theories.

Quoted for truth! I work with mainly men. There are a couple that have long hair, longer than mine! Nobody has ever said anything (and believe me, guys can gossip just as much as women). However, there have been times when some of the guys prolong their usual haircuts and get razzed about getting shaggy, girly, pretty, or whatever. I think if your husband sticks to his guns and maybe gets a little ... erm ... snarky about it, these comments will stop, especially when some time has passed.

purplebubba

July 3rd, 2008, 09:18 PM

I have had long hair past my shoulders since 1995. This was after I got out of High School so I no longer had to deal with the comments I would have had there.

There were some occasional teases when I worked at my gear making machine shop job. And a few at the bowling alley bar next to work where I had lunch everyday.

But none of them were from anyone that I would even consider mattering. I had already grown it out even though my mom and grandma didn't like it.

There's really no way around it. There are people out there who feel the need to comment on something. And if you change what they comment on they will just find the next thing to say.

As far as public no one has made any negative comments that I can remember.

I had one long haired guy jokingly call me a hippy.
I had an elderly lady ask me how long I've been growing and said she wished she had my hair.
And another long haired guy asked me how long I've been growing.

Maybe I've been lucky. Or maybe I just don't leave the house enough.
But I've had 13 years to decide that I'm keeping the hair. And that I don't care who doesn't like it. This life is mine and I want long hair in it as long as nature lets me have it. Unless I change my mind.

It's an individual thing. If the comments are there you just have to ignore them or not let them be the decision maker.

Darkhorse1

July 3rd, 2008, 09:37 PM

I think it's about that stero-type that long hair =femeninity for women, so that would transfer that a man's long hair = femeninity which will equate to homophobia. And that sucks. I mean, I have a few friends who prefer very short, short hair, and when they've had a bad cut, they refer to it as '****' hair. So, is this to say that women with short hair are all lesbians?

Isn't it weird how our society seems to have pre-conceved notions about our appearance equating us with our preferences? I know long hair on men can also mean a hippie in some people's eyes.

Question--are any men here of a native american background? Do you find that men, if there is a cultural/religious reason for long hair, that it is accepted more than just a guy saying 'I like long hair'?

Siava

July 3rd, 2008, 09:40 PM

Shadow Walker

July 3rd, 2008, 09:41 PM

The only issues I experience is at work, where my co-workers have progressively been picking on me more and more about my hair. I regularly get called a [insert derogatory reference to a gay man here] as well as a girl, and some have started refering to me as the female equivelant to my name (which is Chris, so I get called Kristin and Christine a lot). They find the latter especially funny since I did an application on the lawn of a co-workers neighbor, and that particular co-worker's mother remarked to him when he got home that she "didn't know they had a girl doing lawncare", because she mistook my gender from a distance (which is absurd since I have plenty of facial hair). Needless to say I'm reminded of this often at work.

They still yank my hair when it's tied back and talk about chopping it off, and it's getting to be too much. The one time I tried making my case to superiors the ridicule got worse, so I'm not sure what else to do besides look for another job. It sucks that my job is the only place people give me grief about my hair, my friends and family seem to either like it or simply don't remark about it.

trolleypup

July 3rd, 2008, 09:44 PM

As with EdG, I get few negative comments about my hair, amusingly, the two I do get (paraphrased) "long hair makes you look gay" "I can't tell if you are a man or woman" almost exclusively come from older balding/short haired straight white males...and my response is "Well, gosh! I'm glad women don't have your recognition problem!"

Hello! Target audience!

:misskim:

Siava

July 3rd, 2008, 09:55 PM

Shadow Walker, that really stinks. Big time. I'm sorry.

getoffmyskittle

July 3rd, 2008, 10:03 PM

trolleypup

July 3rd, 2008, 10:15 PM

Wait, this is supposed to be an insult?
So much depends on where you live and the culture there, and how hazardous it is to challenge local society norms.

Me, in San Francisco, I can say things like "That is is bad thing, how?" and "I'd get more dates then!" or "No, my drag name is Amy, not Roberta". Or the ever favorite "And when was the last time some beautiful young thing ran her hands through YOUR hair?"

getoffmyskittle

July 3rd, 2008, 10:21 PM

So much depends on where you live and the culture there, and how hazardous it is to challenge local society norms.

Me, in San Francisco, I can say things like "That is is bad thing, how?" and "I'd get more dates then!" or "No, my drag name is Amy, not Roberta". Or the ever favorite "And when was the last time some beautiful young thing ran her hands through YOUR hair?"

I understand what you're saying; I just find it unsettling when people act like being called a girl/woman is a huge insult. Guess what, I AM a girl, and somehow I'm surviving the horror! I mean, when you carry something like that to its logical conclusion, it's worse to be a girl than it is to be a feminine guy, because if masculinity = good and femininity = bad, then feminine men are still more masculine than women, and therefore better and more deserving of respect.

ETA: Saying "well, it's okay to be feminine if you ARE a girl" is pretty illogical because then there's nothing *wrong* with femininity except when it's donned by males, and then you enter this huge mind-Iwanttosayabadwordhere where you try to figure out what exactly IS wrong, but you can't because there's nothing inherently wrong about masculinity or femininity.

Alun

July 3rd, 2008, 10:31 PM

I have got less and less negative comments over the years, and more and more positive ones. I even had someone say "don't ever cut it", just the other day. Mind you, nearly all the positive comments are from black women who are total strangers, for whatever reason. The negative ones come, for example, from my parents, bless them, and from teenagers shouting from moving vehicles. The latter are probably of the same mindset as the ones who hit my mailbox with a baseball bat from a moving vehicle, so I don't value their opinion, and I can't really hear what the're saying anyway!

One incident sticks out where, many years ago, I got on a train (in London, this was) in a fairly drunken state after an office Xmas party and decided to wish everyone in that carriage Merry Xmas. One elderly man responded to my Xmas wishes by saying "get a hair cut", apparently channeling Ebenezer Scrooge!

I think that growing out the hair through the awkward phase elicits more negative comments than when the hair has grown past that. It's probably also true that older guys get less flak on any subject, whether it's hair or anything else, and younger ones have to put up with more.

Going back to the OP, I have also observed throughout the fashion changes over many years that flips at the back continue to be thought cute on females and stupid-looking on males, by just about everybody, including those whose head they are on. When my hair was at that length I spent many hours using a comb trying to curl my hair under to prevent in flipping up. If you have regular trims you can just about train it to curl the right way in time for the next trim, which then undoes all the good work simply because the length is now slightly different, and then you start again!

The only thing you can say is that eventually it grows past that stage, provided you don't trim all the growth off each time. The smart move is probably to avoid all trims at that stage, as that is the quickest way to get past it. Getting the back cut because it's curling is probably the worst thing you can do, as it prolongs the agony.

Some never make it past that stage. Not only that, but some who have never had hair down to their collar find it uncomfortable and maybe even itchy when their ends reach the gap between their hairline and the back of their shirt collar. Of course, we all know that once it grows past the collar that particular problem is gone, but some imagine it will always feel like that if they stick with growing their hair out.

As for comments at work, there's no good way of putting this, but I'm sure it's worse in lawn care than say if you are a nuclear physicist or a computer programmer. I work in a law firm and nobody ever mentions my hair. If you have qualifications it goes a long way to combat dumb comments based on appearance. It all boils down to whether people think you can easily be replaced. Plus, if the comments are not from anyone who can control your livelihood, then you can safely just ignore them.

As for negative comments from bald men, that's certainly something I've experienced, and the reason for it is so obvious that it hardly needs any comment. However, I will say that most bald men are not dumb enough to open themselves up to appearing to be jealous, just because it is so obvious an explanation. Of course, it is possible for men who have MPB to grow long hair on the rest of their head, and I'm all for it. We have at least one person here like that.

julya

July 3rd, 2008, 10:39 PM

My son gets some negative comments about his hair. Mainly, about how much he looks like a girl and he should cut it so people can tell he's a boy, which doesn't seem to bother him. He's at that stage where he likes to play make believe games all the time and he'll frequently pretend he's a female character. I don't really have any good comebacks, I just usually say something like "Oh, that's interesting."

Shadow Walker, your work situation sounds horrible!

Alun

July 3rd, 2008, 10:42 PM

I understand what you're saying; I just find it unsettling when people act like being called a girl/woman is a huge insult. Guess what, I AM a girl, and somehow I'm surviving the horror! I mean, when you carry something like that to its logical conclusion, it's worse to be a girl than it is to be a feminine guy, because if masculinity = good and femininity = bad, then feminine men are still more masculine than women, and therefore better and more deserving of respect.

ETA: Saying "well, it's okay to be feminine if you ARE a girl" is pretty illogical because then there's nothing *wrong* with femininity except when it's donned by males, and then you enter this huge mind-Iwanttosayabadwordhere where you try to figure out what exactly IS wrong, but you can't because there's nothing inherently wrong about masculinity or femininity.

Well, when we get called girls or women it's clearly intended as an insult, but I no longer react negatively, as that is what they want. You are right, though, it does imply that being female is inferior, which is chauvinist. The whole mindset is that a man adopting any stereotypically feminine characteristic, such as long hair, is lowering their social status. These people don't live in the 21st century, or even the 20th, which is another good reason to ignore what they say.

getoffmyskittle

July 3rd, 2008, 10:45 PM

Well, when we get called girls or women it's clearly intended as an insult, but I no longer react negatively, as that is what they want. You are right, though, it does imply that being female is inferior, which is chauvinist. The whole mindset is that a man adopting any stereotypically feminine characteristic, such as long hair, is lowering their social status. These people don't live in the 21st century, or even the 20th, which is another good reason to ignore what they say.

Exactly!! I know it's intended as an insult, but you don't have to take it as one. :wink: You know, like if someone said to me "ewww, BOYS wear pants!" I'd just be like "o... kayyy...?"

jojo

July 3rd, 2008, 10:47 PM

jojo

July 3rd, 2008, 10:50 PM

jojo

July 3rd, 2008, 10:52 PM

Some excellent replies, thank you.

getoffmyskittle

July 3rd, 2008, 11:01 PM

its a bit like calling a woman Bernard because she has facial hair. I would be insulted as I would feel it an insult to my identity but i do understand what your saying.

Not really :\ most women don't have facial hair, don't grow it period, so it's seen as an aberration. Most men do grow head hair, and they have to keep cutting it to maintain it short. "Men don't have long hair" is a social construction, whereas "women don't have facial hair" is a biological one.

But, I agree with you that it's just as crappy to make fun of a woman for having facial hair!

TheSpottedCow

July 3rd, 2008, 11:08 PM

My boyfriend has long hair (reminds me of ShadowWalker for some reason... His hair is also the same length but layered, since he's growing from a buzz cut without trims)

Some of his close friends joke but it doesn't offend him. His co-workers call him fabio sometimes, but that also doesn't bother him when they're kidding.

What does irriate him is whenever he sees someone he hasn't seen in a long time they say "HOW LONG HAS IT BEEN SINCE YOU CUT IT!?" and then "MANnn get a haircut you look like a woman". The first 50 times it was normal small talk, but like any person, even if they mean to be joking, the 5 millionth time you hear someone say that, it's going to be irritating. They all think they're super original.

In terms of truely negative stuff, someone screamed "F@g" at him out a car window, and my brothers friends told him once that they were going to sneak in his room and cut his hair off while he slept. They're 15, and they weren't kidding. Theyre young though, and also immature for their age, so I don't think they understand why that is a severe thing to say. They didn't seem to understand why he didn't talk to them for a long time.

He also get's pulled over all the time and the cops always demand to see the drugs. He never has any on him. They also call for backup every time, even though he just stands there. It's almost funny.

He worries about finding a job after college. Hopefully as time goes on workplaces will become more open (as many have) to men with long hair, because I'd hate to see it go, and so would he.

sowhat

July 4th, 2008, 12:42 AM

A friend of a friend once hassled me saying I looked like a girl from behind; I of course took the high road and told him to stop staring at my ass. As well, my friend chimed in and screamed "OWNED."

Riot Crrl

July 4th, 2008, 12:54 AM

As for comments at work, there's no good way of putting this, but I'm sure it's worse in lawn care than say if you are a nuclear physicist or a computer programmer.

Hee! My husband owns a lawn care and maintenance company. He maintains between shoulder and APL, which isn't super long, but he's the owner. Most dudes who work for him have longer, in some cases much longer. No knee or calf yet, but waist happens. Maybe it's our location but I think people here are more willing to accept that on men from their lawn dude than their accountant.

To the OP: no one really usually intentionally messed with my husband, at least for that reason. (And he used to be at waist when I met him.) Once in a while someone accidentally calls him "ma'am" though. I think a sense of humor is the main thing. If I was your SO I'd probably carry some pink ribbon in my pocket so I could say, "No thanks, already got one" and tie it in my hair.

Nightshade

July 4th, 2008, 01:28 AM

morgwn

July 4th, 2008, 02:21 AM

I can't help saying that it's sad that so much of society still has these prejudices. It's just silly. :eyeroll:

However, with regard to responding to people being harassing, I'd say having a comeback handy to make them feel like the idiot is the best response. Some of the ones listed here already sounded pretty good. :)

DavidN

July 4th, 2008, 03:23 AM

For the most part, negative comments about my long hair are not that common, and limited mostly good natured teasing, which I take in stride as part of the "side effects" of having something which is still not that common in today's society, especially on older men. I also occasionally get a nice comment too.

When I was growing out my hair (awkward phase), I seemed to get more nasty comments than I do now. One of the worst was at the golf course where I play, when another member threw a pink golf ball at me. Fortunately, those episodes are in the past, and another member of my golfing foursome, who is only one year younger than me, also has long hair, similar in length to mine. We both wear our hair on ponytails on the golf course.

Chrissy

July 4th, 2008, 05:24 AM

I think the kind of people who make these comments are the kind that would find something else negative to say if it wasn't about long hair. I think comments like these make them feel superior. I think they have insecurity issues if they have to do this to make themselves feel better. It's harder of course to be on the receiving end of such stupid comments. I love all the great responses though! All you great guys keep growing!!!

FrannyG

July 4th, 2008, 05:29 AM

My son had a typical boy's haircut (buzzcut) until he was 14. He decided to grow it out. I think the comments, as others have said, were more prevalent during the growing-out phase, but he stuck it out. It didn't seem to bother him. He's now 17 and his length varies these days between just above the shoulder to a few inches below shoulder, depending on the season.

Long hair is not the norm in high school where we live, and he did get and does get comments from time to time. If someone makes a comment, he'll say, "I wore a little boy's haircut for a long time. I'm over it."

Poppy Seed

July 4th, 2008, 05:53 AM

My SO generally gets the positive scale of comments on his waistlength or so hair - except from his granny who (until we moved to Aus) would grab his plait or ponytail, tug a little, and say 'when are you going to get it cut?' whenver he saw her. I suspect that the majority of negative comments come during the growing out phase because it's so difficult to do anything neat with the hair. My SO has had long hair since before I knew him, so I don't know what kind of stick he had while it was shorter.

lapushka

July 4th, 2008, 05:53 AM

I do prefer men with short hair esp. in a relationship and would feel odd if my SO would suddenly start growing his hair. It would be something I would have to get used to. I don't object to long hair on men, but have to admit that I don't like it as much as short hair. I would never publically criticise someone as I'd feel it's not my place. Nevertheless, that's how I feel about it. I think there's a nice way to say this, and there's a wrong way. All those derogatory comments are insecurities, fears because someone's outside what's considered "the norm". All very well, but as a man growing your hair, you're kind of stuck with it, I think. Not that I think it's right... Can't people (society in general) be more open about this without offending others?

FrannyG

July 4th, 2008, 06:54 AM

toodramatik

July 4th, 2008, 07:45 AM

I knew a 14 year old guy with tailbone. He cut it last month. I cried.

Lady Verity

July 4th, 2008, 07:48 AM

My boyfriend has wonderful long hair, past his shoulders, dyed with red henna. It's in excellent condition. He gets 'poof' a lot from old people, and 'get a hair cut' from children, who are then congratulated by their chavvy parents. 'Get run over' is his usual comeback to the latter.

Lamb

July 4th, 2008, 08:33 AM

I understand what you're saying; I just find it unsettling when people act like being called a girl/woman is a huge insult. Guess what, I AM a girl, and somehow I'm surviving the horror! .

Skitts, how would you like being called a man just out of spite? It is the same thing. For most people, myself included, gender identity (read: I am a girl and I don't want to be taken for a boy) is a deep-rooted part of their identity. And they tend to take it to heart when they are teased/challenged about it. Think how many members we have here who resent having been mistaken for a boy when they were small and were forced to wear their hair short. It sucks, big time, to be taken for a boy/girl when you belong to the other gender.

WaimeaWahine

July 4th, 2008, 08:37 AM

:)

Just posted in another thread how I used to date a guy who had hair down past his rear.

He got no teasing although we did make an odd pair as my head was shaved to like 1/2 then and
while I'm petite he was too and I could pick him up
and carry him around. lol

People on the street thought it was odd but funny. Diverse area here.

I don't care how long a guy's hair is or if he even has hair.

getoffmyskittle

July 4th, 2008, 10:51 AM

Skitts, how would you like being called a man just out of spite? It is the same thing. For most people, myself included, gender identity (read: I am a girl and I don't want to be taken for a boy) is a deep-rooted part of their identity. And they tend to take it to heart when they are teased/challenged about it. Think how many members we have here who resent having been mistaken for a boy when they were small and were forced to wear their hair short. It sucks, big time, to be taken for a boy/girl when you belong to the other gender.

I've never been outright called a man, since compared to the general population I'm rather small and dainty and longhaired and doe-eyed and pretty much the physical epitome of everything girly, but I've been accused of trying to be a man and acting like a man and told that I need to stop saying/doing something because "girls don't do that, only men can get away with acting like that." It's whatever. I know I'm not trying to be a man and I know that a lot of the qualities about masculinity that are considered admirable (honesty, forthrightness, articulateness - hey, is that even a word?) make a good person, not just a good man.

Anyway, it's totally different to be mistaken for something you're not than it is to be called it as an insult. Being called feminine/masculine as an insult implies that there's something wrong with either femininity or masculinity, and there isn't. The people doing the insulting obviously don't realize this, but if we do, suddenly the sting is gone. That's really all I'm saying. It's like when people mistake me for Hispanic (disclaimer: I realize that Hispanic people come in all skin tones blah blah, but the reality is that a lot of people see "brown person" and think "Hispanic"). I'm not and I get annoyed when someone walks up to me and starts speaking Spanish, because they're making an incorrect assumption about my identity, so then I correct them, but at the same time I realize that there's nothing wrong with being Hispanic, so it doesn't offend me or insult me in any way.

ETA: It's also different when we're little, because I and most of the girls I know were like EWWWWW, boys have COOTIES!!, you know? And you don't want to be THAT. But as we get older, we realize that these things are silly. :lol: Little kids are androgynous, and the only way to tell between boys and girls when they're young is to force them into their gender roles. But if there was a deep necessity for them to be so different, they WOULD be. So would they even be so upset about being perceived as the other gender if we didn't beat into them that they have to play these parts? :hmm: It's a really interesting question, honestly, and I can't decide the answer. I mean, nobody ever told me that boys have cooties, but I still wouldn't have wanted to be one! I may not want to be one now either, but I like being a girl and just because I'm not/don't want to be something doesn't mean that I have to think it's bad or be insulted when I get compared to/called it.

ETA2: I prefer long hair on men. :p

Lady Godiva

July 4th, 2008, 12:33 PM

I saw this comment in this fark thread (http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2727810) about stay at home dads, which also talked about social norms and gender roles. I thought this quote was classic and wanted to share:

You know what's really manly? Blindly living your life in accordance with arbitrary social norms because at the end of the day ... how strangers see you is so much more important than living life your way. Your post, Ricardo_Farktardo reminds me of something I heard in a bar this weekend.

"Dude! What's up with your hair? Long hair is girly."

"So is starting a conversation about another dude's hair. I guess we're even."One time my husband was DJing, and a young, longhaired man approached him rather sheepishly, saying, "Umm, don't want you to mistake me here, but what do you use for shampoo and stuff, 'cuz your hair is great!?" Then they shared a good laugh at the usual, stupid mis-perceptions of society and proceeded to talk hair stuff. :lol:

For the most part, negative comments about my long hair are not that common, and limited mostly good natured teasing, which I take in stride as part of the "side effects" of having something which is still not that common in today's society, especially on older men. I also occasionally get a nice comment too.True. My husband expects his unusual self-presentation to garner comments of all sorts, including the negative with the positive. It's part of the deal in this society, he thinks. He's not looking for it, but it happens so regularly. Hence, he's never surprised when folks presume he does drugs, although usually the stereotype is on the part of those trying to sell to him or who think he has connections for them, as the police aren't in the situations.

Long hair is not the norm in high school where we live, and he did get and does get comments from time to time. If someone makes a comment, he'll say, "I wore a little boy's haircut for a long time. I'm over it."Bwahaha!! :cool:

Think how many members we have here who resent having been mistaken for a boy when they were small and were forced to wear their hair short. It sucks, big time, to be taken for a boy/girl when you belong to the other gender.This happened to me, and I hated it to the point of tears. I understand the difference between knowing a comment is intended to insult v. knowing it's an honest mis-perception/mistake, but on the flip side, because it was a genuine mis-taking of my sex, that was a horror for a seven year-old, wanna-be girly-girl. You then *know* that yet others are thinking the same thing, you can't avoid it, and you're very angry and powerless to change it, because the grown-ups are going to force you to cut your hair short again. When the insult is intended, at least you know that the other person is simply a jerk, and you might know s/he's lying just to hurt you, too. Of course at seven, it's not easy to distinguish; you simply know that you're being viewed as something other than you are, and it's hard and hurtful either way. With the honest mis-perception, it's societal stereotypes causing the grief, and with intended insult, it's a person being deliberately mean. :undecided

lapushka

July 4th, 2008, 01:08 PM

I really don't think that men have to be stuck with it, any more than women over 40 have to be stuck with "mom haircuts:. We can be the change we want to see in society. One person at a time.

I agree with that, totally. Change happens one person at a time. And as hard as getting used to something is... which sooner or later we all get confronted with, doesn't have to be hair but can be something more general, more lifechanging even... *why* --and that I don't understand-- take it out on someone, when all it is is just a little more thinking, and maybe effort on your part to just adapt to a new situation, a visual change you might not particularly like in your SO, friend, ...? I mean if my SO, or friends like(s) long hair, love(s) it on me, and I were to butcher it all off without warning, I reckon that would have the same effect on him, them. Change isn't that hard, but we can make it hard, or a big deal. There's no need for treating people like crap for hair issues... please.

And the reverse is also true... take short hair on girls. I had short hair as a young child, and part of me is used to it. I had to plead with my mother so I could grow it long. She didn't think I'd persist, kept taking me to the hairdresser at age 6, 7 until I realized it actually wasn't growing. I flat out refused to go to the hairdresser and went from a page style to classic in 3, 4 years. At which point, I wanted it cut and my mother refused... yeah, there is humor in that... sometimes.

Indigo Girl

July 4th, 2008, 01:33 PM

I think it depends on the locale and the individuals therein on how reactions are.

So much depends on where you live and the culture there, and how hazardous it is to challenge local society norms.

I agree, certain places are more accepting than others when the "norm" is challenged. Unfortunate, but true. :rolleyes: This really applies to anything that happens to be in the minority.

The only issues I experience is at work, where my co-workers have progressively been picking on me more and more about my hair.

I'm sorry to hear you're still going through this, Shadow Walker. :grouphug: I do hope you are able to find a solution soon.

I think long hair on men is beautiful. :bluesmile

rosieposie

July 4th, 2008, 01:57 PM

I really think it is up to the individual man; but unfortunately some people seem to think it is their business. My husband shaves his head every few weeks and sometimes people look at him strangely. However, we have friends who have longer hair which I think looks great, but they do report having received some nasty comments.
So long as the man is comfortable with his length, whatever it may be from bald to floor, then that should be all that matters. Live and let live, I say!

Morag

July 4th, 2008, 03:11 PM

On a more general level about cultural "norms" and expectations:

Years ago I saw a television interview with a leader of the women's movement (can't for the life of me remember which one) and she said on the subject of masculinity vs. femininity (and I paraphase):

I am a woman. Thus, everything I do is inherently feminine. If I am playing football, that becomes a feminine activity because I, a woman, am doing it.

That solved the problem for me.

Applying that logic to this thread: if a man chooses to grow his hair long, then growing long hair is (in his case) an inherently masculine activity.

Lots of people cling to stereotypes because it relieves them of the effort of actually paying attention to, thinking about, and getting to know anyone (including themselves).

I think there may be some useful comebacks hidden in there somewhere. :shrug:

purplebubba

July 4th, 2008, 03:19 PM

Those stereotypers are so stereotypical :silly:

Naluin

July 4th, 2008, 03:38 PM

To add a slightly less useless comment to the thread, my BF went through a phase of growing out his hair about 4 years ago. He got a little bit of friendly teasing from my uncles the first time they met him, but he got a lot of flack from his coworkers about getting a haircut and looking like a girl, etc. He also got called Napoleon Dynamite a lot, which I never understood because I don't think that he and John Heder look anything alike and their hair was not similar at all. I honestly don't know if he ever got called "f@g" or anything similar because of his hair. If he did, he never told me, which is just as well, because I would have been livid. :hatchet:

I think the last straw for DBF was when he came to visit me and we were at the mall and we were addressed as "ladies" several times in one day, despite the fact that my BF was sporting facial hair. Shortly thereafter, he announced that he was finally getting a haircut. I was sad to see his hair go. I love his hair and more of it was definitely better, IMO.

Oh well, maybe one day he'll be ready to try again. I think he'd have a better shot at success this time. He's a lot less... impressionable? than he used to be. Nowadays, I think he'd have no trouble telling anyone that told him to get a haircut to shove it.

Sadly, I have no advice for dealing with this kind of crap from others, except for trying to stay positive. Occasionally, BF would relate some instance of someone criticizing his hair and ask me "do you think i should get a haircut?" I usually responded "I like your hair the way it is, but it is your hair. Do what will you make you happy." Perhaps if I had been less mild and pouted and whined every time he asked me if he should get it cut, he would be at tailbone by now. :p

Beatnik Guy

July 4th, 2008, 03:41 PM

Anyway, it's totally different to be mistaken for something you're not than it is to be called it as an insult. Being called feminine/masculine as an insult implies that there's something wrong with either femininity or masculinity, and there isn't. The people doing the insulting obviously don't realize this, but if we do, suddenly the sting is gone.

Skitts, I think it is intended a homophobic insult -- by someone who is presumably so insecure in his sexuality that he needs to proclaim it by what he sees as external markers in his behaviour and appearance. I remember some years ago at TLHS we had a pet troll who used to think it was really insulting to call me "gay"; of course, I was busy ROFLMAO. :rolleyes:

Otherwise, I think men growing their hair out are more likely to get comments than those who are deemed lost causes, beyond hope of shorthair salvation. The only negative commentary I get now really is the occasional teenagers-in-moving-vehicle variety which Alan mentioned (and who usually get a one finger salute in response). :cool:

DaveDecker

July 4th, 2008, 06:41 PM

What's crazier is most men have a preconceived notion that long hair is feminine while many of the female population are maintaining and trying to convert longhairs into short hairstyles! That's mind boggling.

The preferences of many men may not necessarily align with what many women chose to have. Long hair on women is likely perceived by many men as feminine, notwithstanding the conversion efforts you mention.

The only issues I experience is at work, where my co-workers have progressively been picking on me more and more about my hair. I regularly get called a [insert derogatory reference to a gay man here] as well as a girl, and some have started refering to me as the female equivelant to my name (which is Chris, so I get called Kristin and Christine a lot). They find the latter especially funny since I did an application on the lawn of a co-workers neighbor, and that particular co-worker's mother remarked to him when he got home that she "didn't know they had a girl doing lawncare", because she mistook my gender from a distance (which is absurd since I have plenty of facial hair). Needless to say I'm reminded of this often at work.

They still yank my hair when it's tied back and talk about chopping it off, and it's getting to be too much. The one time I tried making my case to superiors the ridicule got worse, so I'm not sure what else to do besides look for another job. It sucks that my job is the only place people give me grief about my hair, my friends and family seem to either like it or simply don't remark about it.

Shadow Walker -- Assuming you have one at your workplace, this sounds like a matter for your Human Resources Department. If so, document everything that has happened in as much detail as you can remember, and go see your H.R. representative ASAP.

Shadow Walker

July 4th, 2008, 10:45 PM

We don't have a HR department. The one time I tried going up the ladder with it, I ended up catching more flak from my co-workers. I'm past the point of even caring.

Darkhorse1

July 4th, 2008, 11:45 PM

Shadow Walker---something like this happened to me in high school, when I could sit on my hair. A 'friend', who was rather loud/obnoxious (she wasn't a mean person, but...well...just different) and I were in art class, and we were being silly (I think we had to draw our boots or something and I sucked at drawing, so I was making a smilie face on it). I went to toss my hair back and I know we had scissors because she said 'what would you do if I cut your hair right here.." and before I could answer, my teacher, who was the nicest woman in the world, said in the sternest voice "Her parents would sue your parents for everything you have"

In my area, if anyone cut your hair, and I'm pretty sure in the US, it's against the law/deemed as an assault. Mention that to these people and they might think twice about grabbing your ponytail. I've never seen someone turn to red in my entire life!

May I ask a question for the men here with long hair---was your modivation to grow your hair long for the reason I like it long? I don't want to ruffle feathers here and imply anything, so bear with me, but I think someone said they liked feeling femenine---does that mean some men here with long hair are gay, or do straight men like to feel femenine, just like women like to feel masculine (asserting strength in a physical way, etc).

I mean no malice by this question--I'm just honestly curious.

In regards to hair, and everything else, it comes down to that good old society steriotype:
Long hair is for young girls. When you are an grown up, you cut your hair, and after forty, it's supposed to be short. Young men can have hair to their collarbone, but then once you are an adult, you must keep it short.

So, who are these people making up the rules??? Can we just smack them?

trolleypup

July 4th, 2008, 11:47 PM

bte

July 4th, 2008, 11:56 PM

its a bit like calling a woman Bernard because she has facial hair. I would be insulted as I would feel it an insult to my identity but i do understand what your saying.

There was an Australian girl serving behind the bar at a pub we used to visit regularly who was very unfeminine, in a conventional sense, in appearance. Her real name was Sheila, but everyone called her Bruce...

I am sure that a lot of calling long haired men 'girls' etc is as insulting to women in general as it is to the men who are being targeted specifically.

Alun

July 4th, 2008, 11:57 PM

Hee! My husband owns a lawn care and maintenance company. He maintains between shoulder and APL, which isn't super long, but he's the owner. Most dudes who work for him have longer, in some cases much longer. No knee or calf yet, but waist happens. Maybe it's our location but I think people here are more willing to accept that on men from their lawn dude than their accountant.

To the OP: no one really usually intentionally messed with my husband, at least for that reason. (And he used to be at waist when I met him.) Once in a while someone accidentally calls him "ma'am" though. I think a sense of humor is the main thing. If I was your SO I'd probably carry some pink ribbon in my pocket so I could say, "No thanks, already got one" and tie it in my hair.

Maybe there is something to the idea that the customer expects their accountant to look a certain way but doesn't care how their lawn care guy looks. OTOH, my ooint was that the guy who is an accountant has far more leverage in the workplace than the guy who works in the lawn care job. So I guess it cuts both ways. Mind you, IMHO most accountants are too boring to grow their hair long (ducks and waits for flames!).

nessthing

July 5th, 2008, 12:19 AM

I think the growing out stage is the worst for men. Once you've actually "gotten somewhere" and have a significant amount of hair it becomes much less easier for people to suggest "just going and getting a haircut".

I got a lot of bad feedback when I first started growing my hair out in 8th grade. Not only was it in the mullety stage from being naturally layered by the shape of my skull, but everyone was 14.

I'm incredibly lucky that I can count on one hand the bad comments I've received past BSL.

Ndnlady

July 5th, 2008, 12:42 AM

I don't understand that whole thing with men having to have short hair to be respected. I have to say it stems from society and it's "standards." I found a good video for you of some famous men with long hair.

(very cool video but it has been removed because of our policy of not showing nips ~ harpgal)

Tell your dh not to be discouraged by small minded people.:);)

bte

July 5th, 2008, 03:27 AM

Great thread!

I have had almost exclusively positive comments, although someone did shout "You're having a laugh, mate!" out of a car. Some accidental compliments, such as being described a few years ago when I was 48 as "the young man with the ponytail" have been the most welcome.
And in answer to why I want long hair, all I can say is that I always wanted it because it feels right for me.

AerisDawn

July 5th, 2008, 05:09 AM

My boyfriend has shoulder length blond hair and he gets mistaken for a girl all the time. He works at a gas station and some of the male customers try to give him a hard time about it. I can't understand the prejudice for men with long hair. My brother used to have long hair until people aggravated him and talked him into cutting it.

Chrissy

July 5th, 2008, 05:25 AM

I don't understand that whole thing with men having to have short hair to be respected. I have to say it stems from society and it's "standards." I found a good video for you of some famous men with long hair.

Tell your dh not to be discouraged by small minded people.:);)

Wow Ndnlady. What a georgeous bunch of long hair guys! Not unlike our own here! :) I do hope that all of you continue to grow and don't let idiot people stop you. You guys are wonderful. Yes I'm being sappy but hey...just do your thing and don't let anyone change your mind if that's what you want. This is one thing I've always told my kids as the've grown up...I don't care what you do to your hair. Where it how you want. If it's pink with purple polka dots I don't care. I find it confusing when parents make such a big deal about how there kids (esp teenagers) where there hair. Who cares? To me that's not something to make a big deal out of. I just tell them as long as you take care of it it's fine with me. This has been a great thread!!

Oh and by the way I have two sons.

sipnsun

July 5th, 2008, 05:59 AM

I love long hair on men and when my 9 year old asked to let his hair grow a year ago, I was all for it. It still amazes me that strangers we don't even know in public commented that he needs a haircut. Not to mention the negativity that came from family. He finally asked me to cut it because at his age, he couldn'd stand up to the criticism he was receiving. After just trimming it a few times (I just couldn't bare to cut off those cute curls) he talked my mom into taking him to a barber without my knowledge. I think he's still cute of course, but it's sad that already at such a young age he's been pressured to do something he didn't really want to do!

vidgrl007

July 5th, 2008, 08:29 AM

shadow walker hun, tell the ppl who are giving you such a hard time to"go take a flying fu** off a rolling donut and hang there".
I hate generalizations of ppl, its just silly.

thankyousir74

July 5th, 2008, 08:32 AM

Yep my boyfriend has longer hair than me (and has had) and back when my hair was at about a 2 inches long all over, my friends teased us saying that from the back, it seems we have reversed roles. It was all in a good-natured tease, and I don't think my boyfriend has been ragged on in any other occassion, for he has beautiful black perfectly curled BSL hair.

Oh except when my brother first saw him. When my BF got out of the car my brother said "When is that guy getting a hair cut?" I just scoffed at him and my BF and I had a nice chortle afterwards. :poot:

All in all he gets lots of compliments and lots of girls like to touch his hair. :disgust:

Of corce, I'm not shore if the positive vibes towards his hair will ensue as we go to college/get jobs. I hope they do, it's beautiful hair. I've been bugging him to join LHC and maybe he will :D

thankyousir74

July 5th, 2008, 09:15 AM

Not really :\ most women don't have facial hair, don't grow it period, so it's seen as an aberration. Most men do grow head hair, and they have to keep cutting it to maintain it short. "Men don't have long hair" is a social construction, whereas "women don't have facial hair" is a biological one.

But, I agree with you that it's just as crappy to make fun of a woman for having facial hair!

Well on this issue we could level it off as a woman getting deprecating remarks for not shaving her legs. I will admit as not being fond of the leg shaving ritual so I have abandoned it for umm I honestly can't even remember the last time I shaved. I assure you I get lots of odd comments, being in high school, more so than my DBF does for his long hair. Shore I have some supporters that appreciate my leg hair and some male friends that say they really wouldn't mind if women had hairy legs, but its odd some of my best female friends comment on how "man-like" my legs are looking.

I find it as a goofy kind of compliment, considering it would mean i have strong legs able to hunt the largest bison :D (and she is not too pleased that i have not been swayed to follow her wishes)

But I digress.

Being one who appreciates and is fond of many types of androgyny, I find those who cannot appreciate masculinity or femininity in their taken stereotypical ways of expression just... I don't think I can find a way to finish that sentence.

POINT IS... I pity the fools who torment Shadow Walker and I hope masculinity and femininity can be appreciated and identified for the beautiful traits that make up the dual sword that is humanity.:heartbeat

End Rant

:twocents:
:gobblecheese:

Fyral

July 5th, 2008, 09:21 AM

to be honest i didn't read all of the responses but i read quite a few of them. it seems to me that reactions to men with long hair differ depending on where you are. when i lived in edmonton for example i got nothing but complements on having long hair or at the least didn't receive any negative criticism for it and had several of my friends threaten me with imminent violence and a nice resting place 5 feet under on the odd occasion i thought about cutting my hair.

since i moved to bc though, i've had so many people give me a hard time about my hair with only a handful of people complimenting me on it. although... it is here that i won what could be one of the greatest battles of my life for the sake of my hair. i got a job where the dress code called for all men to be clean shaven and have short hair. during my interview they asked if i would shave my beard, i said that for the sake of getting a job i would be willing too but when asked if i'd cut my hair i just gave them a look that said "If you try to force me to cut my hair then this interview is over" and they conceeded to let me have it long. heres to men with long hair slowly gaining more acceptance in the work place, lets hope it continues.

Shadow Walker

July 5th, 2008, 11:02 AM

Darkhorse1

July 5th, 2008, 12:01 PM

Thanks Shadow Walker! That's great input. I think it's sad that people in society feel that the sterotype of long hair is only for women. Guys, keep growing out your hair!!

As I said, I prefer short hair on men--that's my preferene, but if I met Mr Right, and he had long hair, I wouldn't tell him to cut it! Just like I wouldn't expect Mr Right to tell me to cut my hair. So, why would a stranger tell someone to do so?

Fyral

July 5th, 2008, 12:10 PM

i have to agree with shadow walker. i started to grow my hair long just because i wanted it long not because i wanted to be effeminete. then i "found religion" as it where and now i do it mostly because i love it but with a healthy dose of tradition too

Neoma

July 5th, 2008, 01:31 PM

Alun

July 5th, 2008, 01:54 PM

May I ask a question for the men here with long hair---was your modivation to grow your hair long for the reason I like it long? I don't want to ruffle feathers here and imply anything, so bear with me, but I think someone said they liked feeling femenine---does that mean some men here with long hair are gay, or do straight men like to feel femenine, just like women like to feel masculine (asserting strength in a physical way, etc).

I mean no malice by this question--I'm just honestly curious.

It was originally a combination of the fact that long hair on guys was actually fashionable in the '70s, and that it was associated with bikers and rock stars and hippies. OK, a couple of those categories may have been negative stereotypes to other people, but not to me. I became a biker, and also sang in a band, and admired the hippies for their views about peace and love and the environment and energy conservation. I think I would be loosely termed a freak rather than a hippie, but I freely accept the hippie tag because outsiders didn't and still don't know the difference.

As for wanting to be feminine, not really. I believe in equality and do not believe that people should be forced into stereotyped roles and forced to adopt a stereotyped appearance because they happen to be male or female. I am straight (married too) and have no interest in looking like a woman or becoming one. OTOH, I have long hair and have been known to wear kilts and sarongs, but with a beard and hairy legs I don't think anyone is likely to think I am female.

If other guys want to wear earrings or even makeup I think they should be able to do that too, and without people automatically assuming that they are gay, nothatthere'sanythingwrongwiththat, LOL! I don't choose to do these things myself, but I think nearly all these gender boundaries of that kind are artificial constructs created by society. Even if there is some relation to gender, we should realise that nobody is 100% masculine or feminine. When we find remote societies that have similar prohibitions of a ridiculous nature we call them taboos and think them funny, but we don't realise that we have taboos as well.

Is that a long enough rant for you? LOL!

DaveDecker

July 5th, 2008, 02:18 PM

May I ask a question for the men here with long hair---was your modivation to grow your hair long for the reason I like it long? I don't want to ruffle feathers here and imply anything, so bear with me, but I think someone said they liked feeling femenine---does that mean some men here with long hair are gay, or do straight men like to feel femenine, just like women like to feel masculine (asserting strength in a physical way, etc).

I mean no malice by this question--I'm just honestly curious.

In regards to hair, and everything else, it comes down to that good old society steriotype:
Long hair is for young girls. When you are an grown up, you cut your hair, and after forty, it's supposed to be short. Young men can have hair to their collarbone, but then once you are an adult, you must keep it short.

So, who are these people making up the rules??? Can we just smack them?

When I was a pre-teen, long hair on males was cool. One day I was hanging out with a friend, and one of his friends came by to visit. His hair was "long" (covered his ears) and I thought, "wow, his hair looks so cool!" Since then I have wanted long hair. Shortly thereafter, I was permitted by my parents to grow my hair somewhat long (quite a bit longer than my friend's friend had it). A few years later, stuff happened, and I went short (and stayed short until about 16 years ago, when I started on my current long-hair journey).

For me, growing and wearing my hair long had/has nothing to do with expressing femininity, although in my eyes long hair enhances the femininity of females.

Regarding those societal "rules," I think they are shaped by monied interests and the mainstream media that promote them. Earlier in my current long-hair journey, I became curious to know if long hair was as much a burden as was described by the mainstream media, and eventually realized that they are a pack of filthy liars.

Morag

July 5th, 2008, 02:18 PM

Thank you, Alun! I loved your rant, and wholeheartedly agree. :applause

Shadow Walker, I agree with Neoma. You do not look at all effeminate, and you do look darn good. Impressive, even. Ignore the idiocy. :rockerdud

Hypnotica

July 5th, 2008, 03:06 PM

The only reactions/comments that I have received so far are from 4-5 year old boys who seem to be "freaked-out" about my long hair.

It's therapy time, kiddies.

hijack:

Do you now that your nickname is a word in swedish?

/end hijack

Unofficial_Rose

July 5th, 2008, 03:27 PM

DS has hair down to his shoulderblades (he is 13) and gets called "gay" by the charmers at his boys school. Luckily he really couldn't care less. Some people cannot seem to stand it unless you're just like them, it seems.

When out together we have been called "girls" a few times, but only really by short-sighted old folk.

Jason

July 5th, 2008, 04:02 PM

I received some negative feedback from family in the beginning but then some of them actually apologized for their remarks. I have received very little, if any, negative remarks from the public in general and none at work. I have received quite a few positive remarks however.

I definitely didn't grow my hair to look feminine. I feel long hair beautifies the individual whether they be male or female.

I would take offense to someone intentionally calling me female because I have no desire to be perceived as anything other than male.

Riot Crrl

July 5th, 2008, 04:32 PM

I know I've been guilty of accidentally referring to male members here as female. :no: I'm sorry to anyone I've done this to, it is simply my inobservance combined with the sheer numbers of this particular population. And the fact that most people's avatars and sigs only show the back of them and if their hair is long it's covering their body.

I don't think I've done it to Jason because his handle is Jason and I can see part of his beard.

galen

July 5th, 2008, 05:01 PM

hijack:

Do you now that your nickname is a word in swedish?

/end hijack

Modern form of the Greek name Γαληνος (http://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe.php?type=GR&target=Galhnos) (Galenos), which meant "calm" from Greek γαληνη (http://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe.php?type=GR&target=galhnh) (galene). It was borne by a 2nd-century BC Graeco-Roman physician who contributed to anatomy and medicine. In modern times the name is occasionally given in his honour.

purplebubba

July 5th, 2008, 05:24 PM

Here's some Movie Quotes / Scenes that come to mind. They don't necessarily reference the hair issue but the message is there.

"Revenge of the Nerds"

Gibert: I just wanted to say that I'm a nerd, and I'm here tonight to stand up for the rights of other nerds. I mean uh, all our lives we've been laughed at and made to feel inferior. And tonight, those bastards, they trashed our house. Why? Cause we're smart? Cause we look different? Well, we're not. I'm a nerd, and uh, I'm pretty proud of it.

Lewis: Hi, Gilbert. I'm a nerd too. I just found that out tonight. We have news for the beautiful people. There's a lot more of us then there are of you. I know there's alumni here tonight. When you went to Adams you might've been called a spazz, or a dork, or a geek. Any of you that have ever felt stepped on, left out, picked on, put down, whether you think you're a nerd or not, why don't you just come down here and join us. Okay? Come on.

Gibert: Just join us cos uh, no-one's gonna really be free until nerd persecution ends.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The Breakfast Club"

Brian Johnson: Dear Mr. Vernon: We accept the fact that we had to sacrifice a whole Saturday in detention for whatever it is we did wrong, but we think you're crazy for making us write an essay telling you who we think we are. You see us as you want to see us: in the simplest terms, in the most convenient definitions. But what we found out is that each one of us is a brain, and an athlete, and a basket case, a princess, and a criminal. Does that answer your question? Sincerely yours, The Breakfast Club.

getoffmyskittle

July 5th, 2008, 07:56 PM

I would take offense to someone intentionally calling me female because I have no desire to be perceived as anything other than male.

Of course you don't. :rolleyes:

trolleypup

July 5th, 2008, 08:12 PM

I would take offense to someone intentionally calling me female because I have no desire to be perceived as anything other than male.
I would just laugh like hell, and help them look even more the fool!

Juli414

July 5th, 2008, 10:49 PM

I don't know any good ways to deal, but I can give my support to my hairy brothers because I have... I wouldn't call it a ******, but I like men with long hair, there's something about bucking establishment that appeals to me. I wouldn't reject a short-hair or bald suitor, but he'd have to accept that I will look at men with long hair, just as many men will look at women who have certain attributes that their SOs don't have as much of.

On a tangent: My cousin's son often goes a while between haircuts. My aunt-in-law gets on his case about it. Recently, he got it cut again, and she got all sicky-sweet (when addressing anyone under 18, she uses a kindergarten-teacher falsetto-y voice with the exaggerated beatific expressions of joy) about how wonderful he looked... I said, "Ah, yes, his slave cut." She said, "What?!?!" I replied that in historical times, the men with the power had long hair, slaves and prisoners were shaved as a form of emasculation.

She didn't like that, for some reason.

Jason

July 6th, 2008, 08:23 AM

Of course you don't. :rolleyes:

Exactly. :rolleyes:

Hypnotica

July 6th, 2008, 09:44 AM

Modern form of the Greek name Γαληνος (http://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe.php?type=GR&target=Galhnos) (Galenos), which meant "calm" from Greek γαληνη (http://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe.php?type=GR&target=galhnh) (galene). It was borne by a 2nd-century BC Graeco-Roman physician who contributed to anatomy and medicine. In modern times the name is occasionally given in his honour.

The Greek meaning of the word is better then the Swedish one: crazy.

:lol:

Lady Godiva

July 6th, 2008, 12:25 PM

If other guys want to wear earrings or even makeup I think they should be able to do that too, and without people automatically assuming that they are gay, nothatthere'sanythingwrongwiththat, LOL! I don't choose to do these things myself, but I think nearly all these gender boundaries of that kind are artificial constructs created by society. Even if there is some relation to gender, we should realise that nobody is 100% masculine or feminine. When we find remote societies that have similar prohibitions of a ridiculous nature we call them taboos and think them funny, but we don't realise that we have taboos as well.
So true. It's funny how some people bristle at the idea of feminine men, when half of a man's sex is determined by the X chromosome.

Long hair is no more feminine than it is masculine. Imagine thinking that women grow their hair long in order to be perceived as more masculine.

For that matter, flower prints, lace, ruffles, bows, buns/updos, face-framing curls, barrettes, make-up, nail polish, high heels, dresses/skirts, pantyhose, and shaved legs are no more feminine than they are masculine. Inherently, they have no gender. It's just that humans coming from their various societies have applied gender stereotypes to these things.

A quirk in history could have led to the tradition of labeling pants/trousers as feminine and skirts/dresses as masculine.

A similar quirk in history could have led to the tradition of labeling short hair as feminine and long hair as masculine. Then LHC might be dominated by men, with a much smaller percentage of its membership female. Many in the larger society would chuckle at the idea of long hair being feminine!

Polyhex

July 6th, 2008, 03:18 PM

One of the things that I find fun on this forum is that most of the participants have decided to go their own way. By bucking current cultural norms, most of us have shown an independent streak. When I read about members' real life in the blogs here, I seldom see people following someone else's rule book. This is not my experience with online communities in general. Even communities of cultural "rebels" tend to have a mold members are supposed to fit. But LHC is too diverse for groupthink.

I think this is particularly true of the men here, who not only have the temerity to grow their hair out, but also to participate in a community where the majority are women. Kudos to you, guys.

My husband has beautiful mid-back length hair. He has told me that he grew it out because it made him feel more in touch with his cultural identity as a Native American (Miami.)

ShanaMaidela

July 6th, 2008, 03:28 PM

My oldest brother has shoulder length hair and has always gotten a lot of heat for it. Now my youngest brother, who is 18, is growing his hair out and people make comments to him. Most of them though are from my father who doesn't like long hair on anyone, let alone men.

My hair is mid-back and I get negative comments from time to time. People offering to cut my hair for me, asking if I'm growing it to donate it, as if that is the only reason someone would grow out their hair, and people making a certain quizzical face and asking if I'm going to grow it any longer.

*Shrugs* I like my hair long and plan to grow it to at least my waist and maybe even longer. My brother likes his hair and ignores the negative feedback. Sometimes it's hard to follow your own path, but it is always worth it.

Jason

July 6th, 2008, 04:26 PM

I understand what you're saying; I just find it unsettling when people act like being called a girl/woman is a huge insult. Guess what, I AM a girl, and somehow I'm surviving the horror! I mean, when you carry something like that to its logical conclusion, it's worse to be a girl than it is to be a feminine guy, because if masculinity = good and femininity = bad, then feminine men are still more masculine than women, and therefore better and more deserving of respect.

ETA: Saying "well, it's okay to be feminine if you ARE a girl" is pretty illogical because then there's nothing *wrong* with femininity except when it's donned by males, and then you enter this huge mind-Iwanttosayabadwordhere where you try to figure out what exactly IS wrong, but you can't because there's nothing inherently wrong about masculinity or femininity.

Turn it around. A shorthaired woman is addressed with a clearly deleterious remark labeling her as male. Assuming she's content being female it's only natural that she would take offense to this remark. It has nothing to do with putting down the female sex or the male sex. It has everything to do with trying to insult the individual. Most men would feel just as offended as Shadow Walker would not because they have anything against the female gender or view it as any less than the male gender but rather because it's an intentional misrepresentation of what they obviously are. Most people don't take kindly to insults. Why must you make this a gender war issue when that was obviously never implied?

jojo

July 6th, 2008, 04:56 PM

getoffmyskittle

July 6th, 2008, 05:22 PM

Why must you make this a gender war issue when that was obviously never implied?

I think I have (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176978&postcount=24) already explained (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176988&postcount=28) myself completely (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=177382&postcount=44) clearly in this thread.

I find your choice of words ("gender war") rather amusing since I'm trying to reconcile the genders and you're clearly trying to stratify them.

RavennaNight

July 6th, 2008, 05:28 PM

Lack of understanding and knowledge leads to fear. Fear leads to prejudice, stereotypes, and hatred. I don't think most people who criticizemen for having long hair are educated in the historical facts about men and long hair. That coupled with a very homophobic society, at least in the US, is what has lead to this negativity. Conformity is also a very real pressure that everyone, men and women,experience. Some jobs try to beat men into submission to conformity by pressuring them to cut their hair because its a symbol of control, that on would sacrifice their identity for money. "If you want to make money, prove you belong to us." (a warrior would be the ultimate example of independence and is therefore not acceptable in a place where you must submit to a boss)
I guess in a sense, what you don't understand, you fear. You must be in control of what you fear. (whoa is that how slavery started?)

Jason

July 6th, 2008, 05:44 PM

I think I have (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176978&postcount=24) already explained (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176988&postcount=28) myself completely (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=177382&postcount=44) clearly in this thread.

I find your choice of words ("gender war") rather amusing since I'm trying to reconcile the genders and you're clearly trying to stratify them.

I found your 'explanation' inadequate at best. Your initial making something out of nothing is rather very typical of you. It would have been better to not stir trouble in the beginning thus obviating any further need of clarification. I *am* glad, however, that I provided some amusement for you.

nessthing

July 6th, 2008, 05:47 PM

fight, fight, fight, fight :slap:

orbiting

July 6th, 2008, 05:58 PM

fight, fight, fight, fight :slap:
*snort* That icon's too cute...

On topic: My significant other has long hair (mid-back). Its nice hair too. He also has a full beard. The only time his gender was questioned was when he came to visit me in the south (he lives in new england). A waitress who saw me and the back of his head asked us "ladies" what we would like to drink. When she saw his face she turned red and apologized. He's never made any comments about people picking on him for his hair... He works a very manual labor job, too..

My ex though? constantly mistaken from behind for a woman. He has waist length curly hair, but it's not just that, he has a feminine shape (his waist narrows and then flares out to his hips and a very rounded way), and wore clothes that occasionally accentuated this (low-rise boot cut jeans). He didn't really care. He only cares when he sees hypocrisy. Like Office Max wouldn't hire him with his hair long but one female cashier had classic length hair... he won't shop there now.

PS. The men on this board have beautiful hair. :)

toodramatik

July 6th, 2008, 06:03 PM

This whole thing just reminds me of how if a girl is called "one of the guys" it's seen as a compliment but if a guy is called a girl it's an insult.

getoffmyskittle

July 6th, 2008, 06:06 PM

I found your 'explanation' inadequate at best. Your initial making something out of nothing is rather very typical of you. It would have been better to not stir trouble in the beginning thus obviating any further need of clarification. I *am* glad, however, that I provided some amusement for you.

Jason, all I was trying to say is that we can choose what offends us.

If you would like to be offended all the time, enjoy yourself. :)

Beatnik Guy

July 6th, 2008, 06:09 PM

fight, fight, fight, fight :slap:
No. :rolleyes:

LongForLife

July 6th, 2008, 06:15 PM

A friend of a friend once hassled me saying I looked like a girl from behind; I of course took the high road and told him to stop staring at my ass. As well, my friend chimed in and screamed "OWNED."

LOL That is a great comment! :)

Jason

July 6th, 2008, 06:19 PM

Jason, all I was trying to say is that we can choose what offends us.

If you would like to be offended all the time, enjoy yourself. :)

and you didn't *choose* to be offended by Shadow Walker's innocent recitation of what disturbed him? Why did you pick on him? You sought offense when there was clearly none to be had.

LongForLife

July 6th, 2008, 06:20 PM

I grew mine long because I wanted to, and I'm a dyed in the wool metalhead so it suits me well. I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't do it for reasons of being more feminine. To me long hair isn't exclusively feminine, because if Vlad the Impaler, the Spartans, the Vikings and so on had long hair, then it's certainly masculine as well. :P

I actually prefer long hair on men. I love your hair shadow walker. I think you look even better with it long, than your very short hair picture. Quite frankly, when I am out in a large crowd, the first man I would notice would be any with longer hair. Not to mention... the Native American warriors all had long hair, and if I may say so myself, I think they looked great with it. :eyebrows:

Let's see... Samson in the bible had long hair and it was his source of "power". :)

Not to mention back in the days of knights, they had long hair. Oh, and Aragon and Legolas. Man, that hair of theirs really enhanced their looks wonderfully.

nutsenmai

July 6th, 2008, 07:28 PM

My boyfriend has BSL length hair and I have tons of male coworkers with hair between shoulderblades and Classic.

Hehe, a man having <i>Bra Strap</i> Length Hair is funny. :P

getoffmyskittle

July 6th, 2008, 07:32 PM

and you didn't *choose* to be offended by Shadow Walker's innocent recitation of what disturbed him? Why did you pick on him? You sought offense when there was clearly none to be had.

I wasn't picking on him, I was picking on the guys picking on him. :rolleyes:

Jason

July 6th, 2008, 07:54 PM

I wasn't picking on him, I was picking on the guys picking on him. :rolleyes:
Love this smiley too :rolleyes: the implications are so great, no? guess things are balanced in the end.....You're just SO smart....

nessthing

July 6th, 2008, 08:30 PM

:slap::slap::slap::slap::slap::slap::slap::slap: :slap::slap:

Juli414

July 6th, 2008, 09:15 PM

~the kitty comes in, bearing platters of cheese, crackers, veggies and dip~

ReddestDream

July 6th, 2008, 10:06 PM

getoffmyskittle, I think I understand what you are trying to say based on what you said here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176978&postcount=24) and here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=177382&postcount=44).

In a perfect world, it wouldn't be an insult for woman to be called a man or vis versa. No one would care if you are a man/boy, woman/girl, neither, both, or somewhere in between. Someone calling you something you aren't would just sound as ignorant and bigoted as it really is.

IMHO, that is the way it should be. The compassionate, rational, correct way to live with other people. :)

But that is not the world most of us live in. A combination of historical circumstances (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=179425#post179425) and personal "insecurities" (for lack of a better word) on the part of the insultee and insulter (mostly the insulter :rolleyes:) make it difficult for people for to just ignore assaults on their identity.

They have to react someway, whether it is with offense, frustration, or just feeling hurt.

I really think that was all Jason was trying to say, correct me if I'm wrong, Jason.

You are right in a way, that we choose what offends us, but we can't choose the ways other people insult us.

The intent matters far more than the words. No one wants to be perceived as something they are not.

Hope this helps! :)

~Time for crackers and cheese! :eyebrows:~

Alun

July 7th, 2008, 12:34 AM

This whole thing just reminds me of how if a girl is called "one of the guys" it's seen as a compliment but if a guy is called a girl it's an insult.

There's definitely a problem in that it's still seen as a lower status to be female, and that should be history by now. I don't think it's always meant as a compliment for a girl to be called one of the guys, though.

dancingbarefoot

July 7th, 2008, 01:02 AM

No. :rolleyes:

:slap::slap::slap::slap::slap::slap::slap: :slap::slap:

Let me reiterate in case Beatnik Guy's message wasn't clear: NO!

If anyone wishes to pick a fight, kindly do it elsewhere.

toodramatik

July 7th, 2008, 01:16 AM

There's definitely a problem in that it's still seen as a lower status to be female, and that should be history by now. I don't think it's always meant as a compliment for a girl to be called one of the guys, though.

I think it is, I don't know many girls who don't grin when they're referred to as "one of the boys". It's usually synonymous with being cool. As bad as it is I'm one of those girls. But I know that even my gay guy friends hate to be referred to as "one of the girls".

Katze

July 7th, 2008, 03:35 AM

one of our acquantances was trying to explain socially-constructed gender roles to her three daughters. Coincidentally, they happened upon my boyfriend, and the mother shouted, 'SEE! Long hair is NOT automatically feminine! Just look at M---! Is HE feminine?'

The girls had to conclude that, despite having (their words) 'really pretty hair', my BF is not 'feminine' in any way. He said they were really cute.

On that note several of his (somewhat snotty) male students (ages 13-16) asked him 'why' he has long hair, and said they think it looks 'gay.' BF responded by saying that when HE was their age, gelled, bleached, styled hair on boys would have had the same effect - no straight boy would have ever done that. Since these guys are all rather homophobic, it shut them up fast.

morgwn

July 7th, 2008, 03:41 AM

On that note several of his (somewhat snotty) male students (ages 13-16) asked him 'why' he has long hair, and said they think it looks 'gay.' BF responded by saying that when HE was their age, gelled, bleached, styled hair on boys would have had the same effect - no straight boy would have ever done that. Since these guys are all rather homophobic, it shut them up fast.

I can't help considering his comeback quite hilarious. How right he is and boy, have times changed. :grin:

Delenn

July 7th, 2008, 07:28 AM

I can't help considering his comeback quite hilarious. How right he is and boy, have times changed. :grin:

I dunno, I know quite a few guys back in the day who were rockin' the "Flock of Seagulls" and "The Cure" hairstyles! :D

david

July 7th, 2008, 10:26 AM

I have experinced several classic cases of gender mistakes by numerous people due to my long hair. Obviously, I get the famous "are you ladies ready to order" all the time if im with my girlfriend in a restraunt etc. But perhaps the funniest one for me was when I was misken for a girl from the front while passing by one of those charity workers who insist on hassling you on the street to sign up to help out with the charity. I dont actually take any offense to being mistaken and it doesn't really annoy me in any way, I take it as a compliment more than anything else.

With regards to any prejudice, I have to say that I have never really experienced any form of negative reaction or people taking me any less seriously because of my long hair. Although I can see where some of societies hang ups about men with long hair come from. The stereotype people have of men with long hair is generally the rebel type or people who have greasy, unkept, messy hair. I take alot of care and pride over my hair so I suppose I get rid of the stereotypes straight away. I think alot of it also has to do with the field your in or the people you interact with. I work as a composer and in a band so I suppose it goes with the territory. I have also had jobs in various sales roles etc and I have had experienced no problem over my hair, in fact I got compliments from the customers rather that anything negative.

On the other hand, while my hair was growing out in the messy stage I got alot of comments, expecially when I wore an aliceband/hairband to get it out of the way during windy days, warm weather etc. So any comments will soon pass if not any friends etc that do make comments are maybe not that great of friends to begin with. If you get any comments in work there is always other jobs out tere.

Alun

July 7th, 2008, 11:37 AM

I think it is, I don't know many girls who don't grin when they're referred to as "one of the boys". It's usually synonymous with being cool. As bad as it is I'm one of those girls. But I know that even my gay guy friends hate to be referred to as "one of the girls".

A gay guy that I happen to know, actually a friend of my (female) cousin, was saying something the other day about being out with five girls, and then added "well...six, actually" meaning himself. So maybe he was quite happy to be one of the girls. Real progress will be when straight guys don't mind being one of the girls. Of course, though, he said this himself, whereas if someone else said it to annoy him it might be different.

Little_Bird

July 7th, 2008, 11:53 AM

I have dealt with negative comments all my life, and the trick is really just to ignore. I have built this wall between me and people's comments, and I just listen to what I want to hear. Constructive criticism is always a very good thing: it helps you improve in life. But usually the kind of comments to men's long hais is always in a negative way.

Still, recently, when I wear my hair loose in the street, there's always some lady who tells me how she's envious of my hair. That fills the wounds left by all the bad comments.

I think that you just have to let your husband know how much you like his hair and how sad it would be for him and for you to throw it away just because of pathetic people who just won't look in their own mirror for a second.

Good luck :flower:

Juli414

July 7th, 2008, 12:07 PM

I once had a "day with the girls" and I was the only genetic female. The three men were gay, and we were getting ready for two of them to participate in an amateur drag show. One was borrowing my dress, so I insisted on going to the show, they invited me to join them for some shopping and time at a spa for hair and makeup to get ready. "Day with the girls" was the term they used.

Now, I have a gay cousin, he and his husband (married in a UU church) would be offended to be called girls, they aren't into the dragshow thing.

Back even 30 years ago, when so many career areas were dominated by men, it was truly an honor for a woman in one of those fields to be treated as "one of the guys". It meant her opinions were considered with equal weight, and she was invited to any post-work winding down at a bar. On the other hand, in a group of college or high school students, if a girl is considered "one of the guys" she probably isn't seen as a potential dating partner by the guys in the group. I learned this myself, the hard way.

In the instances of a long-haired man being called "ma'am" by mistake, they should just laugh it off, and take it as an honored milestone, everyone makes mistakes. If the person continues the gender "confusion", especially in a negative tone, it's not the words themselves that are insulting/offensive, but the idea that the person has the INTENT to offend/insult.

It's a lot like political correctness when talking about various ethnic groups. Some people have no realization that certain old-time terms for different races and nationalities are considered offensive, especially older folks. The listener has to go by tone and context to decide if the term is meant as merely a description or in a derogatory manner.

Eboshi

July 7th, 2008, 12:33 PM

It's a lot like political correctness when talking about various ethnic groups. Some people have no realization that certain old-time terms for different races and nationalities are considered offensive, especially older folks. The listener has to go by tone and context to decide if the term is meant as merely a description or in a derogatory manner.
I wouldn't term it "political correctness" - it is just common courtesy :shrug:

peachy.pudding

July 7th, 2008, 01:01 PM

So true. It's funny how some people bristle at the idea of feminine men, when half of a man's sex is determined by the X chromosome.

Long hair is no more feminine than it is masculine. Imagine thinking that women grow their hair long in order to be perceived as more masculine.

For that matter, flower prints, lace, ruffles, bows, buns/updos, face-framing curls, barrettes, make-up, nail polish, high heels, dresses/skirts, pantyhose, and shaved legs are no more feminine than they are masculine. Inherently, they have no gender. It's just that humans coming from their various societies have applied gender stereotypes to these things.

A quirk in history could have led to the tradition of labeling pants/trousers as feminine and skirts/dresses as masculine.

A similar quirk in history could have led to the tradition of labeling short hair as feminine and long hair as masculine. Then LHC might be dominated by men, with a much smaller percentage of its membership female. Many in the larger society would chuckle at the idea of long hair being feminine!

I am not sure i agree, for instance if it is a mans intention is to deceive another into believing that he is a women then no. If i saw a man for example in drag and i could not tell he was a man then this is not good, which is why men wear certain things and women wear other things, so you can tell sexes apart. Men and women are not the same, they are very different and i dont think it would be right to treat them the same. It would not be fair to tell a woman to do the heavy lifting or to ask a man to have a baby, both are different and i am glad that there are different clothes makeup and all the things you mentioned that seperate us. Not to mention the fact that women like men not men trying to appear female. Plus men like to appear as a man and not have people think he is female. I would hate if someone treated me like a male. The reason pink is more for girls is because women like this colour not just because it swang that way, most guys like the colour blue also, not just because society says.

peachy.pudding

July 7th, 2008, 01:06 PM

On the topic of men with long hair, i have never mistaken a man for a women simply because he has long hair, it would be more the way he tied it than the fact that it was long, plus long hair on men is nothing new, or out of the norm in the UK, some men look amazing with long hair whilst others dont look quite right when they lose most of their hair with age, of course its different for everyone.

Juli414

July 7th, 2008, 01:35 PM

I wouldn't term it "political correctness" - it is just common courtesy :shrug:Well, the currently approved (by whom?) terms can be misleading. Example: I know a man who immigrated to the US from South Africa; on both sides of his family he can trace to the earliest Dutch settlers of SA. He loves messing with people because he IS an African-American.

Granted, there are terms that should be obvious as offensive, but there are others that were perfectly acceptable many years go, but are now unacceptable. That's what I was trying to get at.

Naluin

July 7th, 2008, 01:37 PM

I am not sure i agree, for instance if it is a mans intention is to deceive another into believing that he is a women then no. If i saw a man for example in drag and i could not tell he was a man then this is not good, which is why men wear certain things and women wear other things, so you can tell sexes apart. Men and women are not the same, they are very different and i dont think it would be right to treat them the same. It would not be fair to tell a woman to do the heavy lifting or to ask a man to have a baby, both are different and i am glad that there are different clothes makeup and all the things you mentioned that seperate us. Not to mention the fact that women like men not men trying to appear female. Plus men like to appear as a man and not have people think he is female. I would hate if someone treated me like a male. The reason pink is more for girls is because women like this colour not just because it swang that way, most guys like the colour blue also, not just because society says.

There is a big difference between asking a man to have a baby and wearing a dress because you're a girl and it's "the thing to do". One is a biological difference. The other is social conditioning. Women are not born wearing dresses or liking pink or ruffles or nail polish. That is a learned difference that exaggerates inherent biological tendencies and underlines culturally desirable traits.

Personally, I think if all people wore potato sacks, you should still be able tell who was male and who was female. There may be some individuals that make it harder to tell immediately, but it's very rare that you meet someone and can only tell their gender by their clothes, particularly in this age of tees and jeans and pink shirts for men being sold in a lot of stores.

As always, opinions served with a side of cheese. :cheese:

Eboshi

July 7th, 2008, 02:11 PM

Granted, there are terms that should be obvious as offensive, but there are others that were perfectly acceptable many years go, but are now unacceptable. That's what I was trying to get at.
Perfectly acceptable to whom though? Were these terms ever acceptable to the groups to whom they were initially applied? I'd bet my eyeteeth that in quite a few situations, the answer is "no."

That is the point that I am making. A lot of times I've heard people use the term "political correctness" to disparage/diminish what should simply be a matter of common courtesy and good manners.

Lady Godiva

July 7th, 2008, 02:45 PM

I am not sure i agree, for instance if it is a mans intention is to deceive another into believing that he is a women then no. If i saw a man for example in drag and i could not tell he was a man then this is not good, which is why men wear certain things and women wear other things, so you can tell sexes apart. Men and women are not the same, they are very different and i dont think it would be right to treat them the same. It would not be fair to tell a woman to do the heavy lifting or to ask a man to have a baby, both are different and i am glad that there are different clothes makeup and all the things you mentioned that seperate us. Not to mention the fact that women like men not men trying to appear female. Plus men like to appear as a man and not have people think he is female. I would hate if someone treated me like a male. The reason pink is more for girls is because women like this colour not just because it swang that way, most guys like the colour blue also, not just because society says.
There are several sweeping statements in the above text that far overgeneralize men and women as if surface clothing or self-decoration stereotypes are biologically supported, which they are not. The fact is that at various points down through history, or in different locations even today, men have indeed worn dresses/skirts, ribbons, bows, lace, curls, heels, hose, make-up, nail polish, buns, flowers, the color pink, and shaved themselves in manners that our modern, western culture interprets as feminine. That's all it is today, just a narrow interpretation, because somehow, in all sorts of various cultures and times through history, humans have managed to procreate successfully, obviously able to differentiate male from female despite not conforming to modern western stereotypical standards of dress.

No one can speak for all men or all women, not by a long shot. You are one person, and maybe folks whom you know in your life think like you, but I assure you that on other locations on plant Earth, and in other ages down through history, many, many people think or thought very differently from you.

Speaking for myself (and reflecting ideas of several people whom I know in real life and also here at LHC), I happen to enjoy it when I cannot tell a person's sex. It forces me to look beyond that limit, as I cannot rely on standard sex stereotypes, but I have to listen more closely, watch my own perceptions, and most importantly view the person as an individual. That is a wonderful challenge.

Yay for potato sacks! :cheese:

Bill

July 7th, 2008, 03:25 PM

The only issues I experience is at work...

It sounds to me like you're working with a real bunch of idiots. I would definately find a new job.

Guys with long hair are becoming more and more common. Below is a link to a recent Chicago Tribune article that I found on the Men's Long hair Hyperboard. My guess is that things are about to change when it comes to guys wearing their hair long. So don't give up.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/images/branding/masthead_subpages.gif

This boy's hair: From soccer fields to Disney stars, long hair on boys is all the rage (http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0629-long-hairjun29,0,1179945.story)
From soccer fields to Disney stars, long hair on boys is all the rage

Jason

July 7th, 2008, 04:29 PM

It sounds to me like you're working with a real bunch of idiots. I would definately find a new job.

Guys with long hair are becoming more and more common. Below is a link to a recent Chicago Tribune article that I found on the Men's Long hair Hyperboard. My guess is that things are about to change when it comes to guys wearing their hair long. So don't give up.

always check spelling for most impact....it definitely makes a difference!

LisaJaney

July 7th, 2008, 07:28 PM

In the article or the post?

wintersun99

July 7th, 2008, 08:36 PM

always check spelling for most impact....it definitely makes a difference!

Rude, dude - I think you missed the point

Bill

July 7th, 2008, 08:47 PM

always check spelling for most impact....it definitely makes a difference!

I definitely will in the future.

P.S. It took me a while to find that one even knowing that it was there.

Jason

July 7th, 2008, 08:58 PM

Rude, dude - I think you missed the point

Rude? LOL? I got the point very well thank you.

RavennaNight

July 7th, 2008, 09:22 PM

I am not sure i agree, for instance if it is a mans intention is to deceive another into believing that he is a women then no. If i saw a man for example in drag and i could not tell he was a man then this is not good, which is why men wear certain things and women wear other things, so you can tell sexes apart. Men and women are not the same, they are very different and i dont think it would be right to treat them the same. It would not be fair to tell a woman to do the heavy lifting or to ask a man to have a baby, both are different and i am glad that there are different clothes makeup and all the things you mentioned that seperate us. Not to mention the fact that women like men not men trying to appear female. Plus men like to appear as a man and not have people think he is female. I would hate if someone treated me like a male. The reason pink is more for girls is because women like this colour not just because it swang that way, most guys like the colour blue also, not just because society says.

Wow. I am asked to do heavy lifting on a day to day basis, and it makes me no less feminine than any other woman, and I dont take offense to it at all! I have had male customers at my work ask me to haul their barely heavy nonsense out while their prima donna wife stands there gawking. I dont care check out my pic. I have strong arms from that job that will never be looking like saggy poultry arms when I get older.And it pays my bills and my health insurance and it allows me, a strong woman, the ability to not have to rely on anyone.Pink is just for girls? Really? I know lots of straight men who wear pink polo shirts and its fashionable! And guess what? I rarely wear pink without black to balance it from being too--pink! People have a right to appear however they want. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I will agree its not right to fool anyone about your gender. But I would respectfully like to disagree with your generalizations about gender roles! Its generalizations like this which have lead to prejudice against men with long hair, by the way!

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn68/katinka1978/1215485373.jpg

getoffmyskittle

July 7th, 2008, 09:24 PM

I definitely will in the future.

P.S. It took me a while to find that one even knowing that it was there.

It's okay, Bill. It's a common mistake. :) That was an interesting article. I do think it's true that many personal styles that were considered "alternative" are becoming more popular and accepted. I see lots of people with facial piercings working at places other than Hot Topic. The nostril piercing is something that most employers don't even bat an eye at any more. :grin: I see men with long hair a lot more often than I used to, too.

Nina

July 7th, 2008, 09:25 PM

Jumping in late to share my two cents. I have a thing for long-haired guys. If I see a man with hair longer than collar length, I will give a second look. Long hair on a man is attractive to me because it means he is a non-conformist, and maybe artsy, traits that appeal to me. I also think it's very sexy, and primal in a way.

Am loving summer at festivals because there's always an abundance of long-haired men :)

I also read the Trib article on long-haired boys last week. There are 139 posts following the article, most of them by adults showing their prejudice against long hair on boys and citing gender stereotypes as to why long hair on boys is wrong, and how their boy will never be mistaken for a girl.

wintersun99

July 7th, 2008, 09:32 PM

Rude? LOL? I got the point very well thank you.

I don't envy you the need to correct all grammar and mis-spelling on this site, that's a rather large job..:rolleyes:

physicschick

July 7th, 2008, 10:05 PM

I haven't read most of this thread and don't particularly want to. However, as the umpteenth mod having to step in and respond to the umpteenth reported post, I request that you all be polite and think carefully before posting or this thread won't survive much longer. Off topic discussions about spelling should be taken elsewhere. Thank you. :flower:

Alun

July 8th, 2008, 12:05 AM

Well, the currently approved (by whom?) terms can be misleading. Example: I know a man who immigrated to the US from South Africa; on both sides of his family he can trace to the earliest Dutch settlers of SA. He loves messing with people because he IS an African-American.

Then there was the interviewer who left Nelson Mandela completely speechless by calling him an African American! Duh! Obviously he was so conditionned to saying African American as a weasel word for Black that it never crossed his mind that it only worked for Americans, LOL!

There are several sweeping statements in the above text that far overgeneralize men and women as if surface clothing or self-decoration stereotypes are biologically supported, which they are not. The fact is that at various points down through history, or in different locations even today, men have indeed worn dresses/skirts, ribbons, bows, lace, curls, heels, hose, make-up, nail polish, buns, flowers, the color pink, and shaved themselves in manners that our modern, western culture interprets as feminine. That's all it is today, just a narrow interpretation, because somehow, in all sorts of various cultures and times through history, humans have managed to procreate successfully, obviously able to differentiate male from female despite not conforming to modern western stereotypical standards of dress.

No one can speak for all men or all women, not by a long shot. You are one person, and maybe folks whom you know in your life think like you, but I assure you that on other locations on plant Earth, and in other ages down through history, many, many people think or thought very differently from you.

Yay for potato sacks! :cheese:

I couldn't have put it better myself.

i've known quite a few women who could lift heavy weights pretty well, too! The 'weaker sex' is only weaker on average, with plenty of women being stronger than a lot of men.

DD likes the colour blue, and I have a pink shirt, but that goes against nature, LOL!

As for potato sacks, aren't they dresses?:scared:

PseudoScot

July 8th, 2008, 12:15 AM

The whole problem with gender and gender perceptions is that aside from the biological certitude of being one or the other, gender constructs - whether they are valid or not - are also 'relative' to the perspective of each person. I am not saying that's a good thing but what I might perceive as masculine or feminine will differ in its finer points from someone else. Hence, the difficulty is multiplied in talking about such things.

"Prejudice" is a loaded word. Have I noticed different behaviors of people around long haired men? Sometimes. My personal experience is that any odd reactions I perceived were not what I would call 'prejudice' - but that's just me.

People, when they have something different about them, often wait for people to react to that. So if you have something out of the societal 'norm' you're going to be sensitive to that, for the most part. When someone picks up on it, you can magnify the reaction [or reality] of the situation some. It's sort of the 'salt in the wounds concept'. But setting up little sociological traps by waiting for someone to comment on what is not the 'norm' about us, isn't really a fair appraisal of society's actual reaction. This is a point in itself and is not aimed at the OP.

OK, I went rather OT there and must admit I'm coming into this thread just now and haven't read from beginning to end, but I have tried to make it quasi relevant to the discussion above [and non confrontational too but I may have failed there]. :D

Elenna

July 8th, 2008, 12:56 AM

The only issues I experience is at work, where my co-workers have progressively been picking on me more and more about my hair.

Shadow Walker, your hair is wonderful. I think that they are jealous of you and your hair. Also any deviation from the norm will be remarked on. The norm for men is short hair, so it just shows how small minded and prejudiced they are.

I find it amazing that hair or furry faces, legs, etc evoke such reactions.

Katze

July 8th, 2008, 02:05 AM

I dunno, I know quite a few guys back in the day who were rockin' the "Flock of Seagulls" and "The Cure" hairstyles! :D

yeah, but that was MUCH different from the overly-styled, streaked, David-Beckham pointy fakehawk look. I can't describe it in detail, but, as a child of the 80s, it looks fruity to me in a bad way. I had a BF in the early 90s whose super-goth 'bob' did make him androgenous, but in a creepy, vampiric way - for me this is miles away from guys with plucked eyebrows, fake tans, manicured nails, and so on and so forth.

I guess it's a generational thing. My BF's long hair looks 'girly' to the immigrant teens at the school he teaches at; their overly 'styled' look looks feminine or at least less-than-masculine to us, products of the 80s and 90s. But to our parents, goth or punk guys wearing eyeliner, or big 'Cure' hair, was less-than-masculine.

On the bigger topic of percieved gender, I find those 'newsboy' or 'porkpie' or 'fedora' style hats on women super un-feminine, and feel like they are unattractive for this reason no matter who's wearing them (unless you're a butch ****, then they work). Other women like them and find them cute and feminine. When I was a bike racer, and about 25 pounds lighter than I am now, I was even curvier, and could often be seen in Spandex. I can't tell you the number of times I was called 'sir' or 'son' or 'bro' - despite a C-cup bust! My attitude on the bike back then - fearless, aggressive - was read as masculine, even though my very feminine figure was stuffed into skintight clothing. I did have short hair at the time, but still...

It just goes to show that gender really is all in the eye of the perceptor.

edited to add: one more thing. Here many boys have long (shoulder or longer) hair. My BF had this as a little boy; it's normal, and was even more so in the 1970s when he was small. As an American this often 'reads' feminine to me and I have trouble 'figuring out' what gender the kid is...but I realize this is again a matter of perception.

Those of you interested in questions of gender identity should see the new Spanish film 'XXY' - EXCELLENT treatment of an intersex teen.

Bill

July 8th, 2008, 02:39 AM

There are 139 posts following the article, most of them by adults showing their prejudice against long hair on boys and citing gender stereotypes as to why long hair on boys is wrong, and how their boy will never be mistaken for a girl.

An excellent observation!! That is why I posted the link to the story.

I wear mine long, not as long as a lot of the guys here, but still long by most peoples standards and I can assure you that the comments that I get about it are generally positive.

People, of whatever sex, have preferences about how they want their partners to look and that is their absolute right but the posts that you are refering to are written by a bunch of people that have a huge psycho-sexual problem. Why, would any hetrosexual male care how long another male wears his hair? I have never been able to quite figure this one out!

bte

July 8th, 2008, 04:05 AM

On the subject of gender equality, I spoke with a relative in her 80s today, who referred to me and my DW as the "ponytail and jeans generation". I took it as a compliment to the fact that this is the generation which has come closest to gender equality, but I'm not sure she meant it as a compliment at all.

Bill

July 8th, 2008, 12:43 PM

This is a regular topic on the men's long hair hyperboard. The best advice is to ignore negative comments.

One of the things that I like about long hair is the way that it feels when worn loose and it touches my shoulders (the point at which everyone starts yelling "get a haircut"; a demand that I usually give in to).

How do you usually wear your hair? Down and loose or in a ponytail or braid or something along those lines? I guess that what I'm really asking here is whether you have to wear it in certain ways in order to keep it out of the way. I know that several of the other guys here also wear theirs very long so I guess that this question is posed to all of you.

DavidN

July 8th, 2008, 01:34 PM

Elleyena

July 8th, 2008, 01:36 PM

I personally like guys who are willing to have long hair. Not to say I don't like short haired guys too. It's their decision. I've had several friends who grew their hair long and didn't care what people thought. Best wishes to the guys who do have long hair! :D

Bill

July 8th, 2008, 02:25 PM

Thank you for asking, Bill! I wear mine loose most of the time, but wear it in a ponytail when I need to have it restrained for physical activities, or sometimes, when going to more "formal" occasions. One day, I hope to learn how to do a braid.

Mine is not long enough to make a decent looking ponytail but when I'm out riding my bike I still wear one. While not long enough for a ponytail, I can make a pretty good halftail which I wear around the house but haven't worn outside. Just chicken I guess. It's interesting that you mentioned "formal occasions"; a ponytail does seem to be the required style when a guy is wearing a suit. I was at a wedding once where the groom and all the guys standing up were musicians and all had mid back to waist length hair. When it was time for the pictures the bride insisted that they all get rid of the ponytails and wear it down.

While I'm not a fan of ponytails I think it would be neat to have a braid.

peachy.pudding

July 8th, 2008, 02:32 PM

There is a big difference between asking a man to have a baby and wearing a dress because you're a girl and it's "the thing to do". One is a biological difference. The other is social conditioning. Women are not born wearing dresses or liking pink or ruffles or nail polish. That is a learned difference that exaggerates inherent biological tendencies and underlines culturally desirable traits.

Personally, I think if all people wore potato sacks, you should still be able tell who was male and who was female. There may be some individuals that make it harder to tell immediately, but it's very rare that you meet someone and can only tell their gender by their clothes, particularly in this age of tees and jeans and pink shirts for men being sold in a lot of stores.

As always, opinions served with a side of cheese. :cheese:

If i may just say, that on one of the most famous studies in America proved that people are not taught they are a man or a woman but they are born with it in them. For example one couple decided to raise thier little boy as a girl, he eventully said no i want to be a boy, even though he was not born with sex organs, he said this before puberty.

The main way you can tell someone is by the way the dress, some women can look like men, but if i see that person has earings in both ears a pink hairband etc then i know oh its a girl, i can also see that there are somethings which are conditioned for example what beauty is, but men and women the majority are quite opposite from one another and like the difference in clothes and other dressings we have.

Again no offence intended just my opinion

tomm

July 8th, 2008, 02:34 PM

Most of the time I wear my hair up in a bun, or pulled back in a ponytail. I am looking forward to having enough length for a good braid.

peachy.pudding

July 8th, 2008, 02:37 PM

There are several sweeping statements in the above text that far overgeneralize men and women as if surface clothing or self-decoration stereotypes are biologically supported, which they are not. The fact is that at various points down through history, or in different locations even today, men have indeed worn dresses/skirts, ribbons, bows, lace, curls, heels, hose, make-up, nail polish, buns, flowers, the color pink, and shaved themselves in manners that our modern, western culture interprets as feminine. That's all it is today, just a narrow interpretation, because somehow, in all sorts of various cultures and times through history, humans have managed to procreate successfully, obviously able to differentiate male from female despite not conforming to modern western stereotypical standards of dress.

No one can speak for all men or all women, not by a long shot. You are one person, and maybe folks whom you know in your life think like you, but I assure you that on other locations on plant Earth, and in other ages down through history, many, many people think or thought very differently from you.

Speaking for myself (and reflecting ideas of several people whom I know in real life and also here at LHC), I happen to enjoy it when I cannot tell a person's sex. It forces me to look beyond that limit, as I cannot rely on standard sex stereotypes, but I have to listen more closely, watch my own perceptions, and most importantly view the person as an individual. That is a wonderful challenge.

Yay for potato sacks! :cheese:
Ys i agree with what you have said but i would like to make two points,

1. No matter what way society swings men will always have a different look style to women, for example if it were the norm for men to have long hair then the opposite would be for women, men and women have never dressed exactly the same.

2. I think these boundaries are good, what women wants to be mistaken for a man or vise versa? Would you like it if people thought you husband was a girl until he spoke?

Again no offence intended just my opinion:o

peachy.pudding

July 8th, 2008, 02:41 PM

Wow. I am asked to do heavy lifting on a day to day basis, and it makes me no less feminine than any other woman, and I dont take offense to it at all! I have had male customers at my work ask me to haul their barely heavy nonsense out while their prima donna wife stands there gawking. I dont care check out my pic. I have strong arms from that job that will never be looking like saggy poultry arms when I get older.And it pays my bills and my health insurance and it allows me, a strong woman, the ability to not have to rely on anyone.Pink is just for girls? Really? I know lots of straight men who wear pink polo shirts and its fashionable! And guess what? I rarely wear pink without black to balance it from being too--pink! People have a right to appear however they want. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I will agree its not right to fool anyone about your gender. But I would respectfully like to disagree with your generalizations about gender roles! Its generalizations like this which have lead to prejudice against men with long hair, by the way!

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn68/katinka1978/1215485373.jpg

They will always be execptions, but i was generalising, i didnt say men didnt wear it but its not generally the most liked colour by males. I used poor examples but i just wanted to make clear, that many women would not feel comfortable being treated like or thought of as a man and vise versa, and also the point or trying to ass of as the opposite sex etc

again no offence intended.

Beatnik Guy

July 8th, 2008, 02:52 PM

Alun

July 8th, 2008, 02:52 PM

Bill, I wear my hair loose most of the time, but I prefer to put it in a braid (aka plait or pigtail) if I need it out of the way. If I'm in a major hurry, I'll put it in a ponytail instead. I think you usually need more hair to make a braid versus a ponytail, unless your hair is blunt cut, so the length affects your options.

In the manual for my chainsaw it has illustrations of someone with a ponytail and then someone with rather longer hair with a braid, and from a safety perspective when operating machinery they are not wrong. If they had seen some of the people on this board who have extremely long hair they might have added a third picture, because I'm sure beyond a certain length even a braid might not restrain it enough to keep you from sawing your own head off, LOL!

As for dressing up in a suit for special occasions, I always wear my hair loose, because I always wash it, and I think it looks best loose when it has just been washed. Hair needs to be just a bit greasy to hide flyaway hairs when you tie it back, IME, and I don't feel I look smart with flyaway hairs escaping, and nor do I feel I look my best if my hair is greasy enough to look best tied back. But then that's just me.

As for going to work, I wear my hair loose for work too. I sit at a desk most of the day, and my hair doesn't get in the way atall for that (lack of) activity. I also remember one other guy a long time ago being told by his boss "If you tie your hair back all the time, why don't you just cut it?", and I don't want to give anyone an excuse to say that to me.

purplebubba

July 8th, 2008, 02:59 PM

I personally do not care if someone thinks I look like a girl, if they are not saying it as an insult.

There's a big difference between sitting in a restaurant and having the watress ask "What would you ladies like?" and having someone from another table talking to their friends saying "Check out that hippy, etc with the long hair"

Neither have happened to me. But I know which I prefer.
In a perfect world neither would happen. But it would be nice to at least eliminate the insults and live with the awkward yet non insulting situations.

Beatnik Guy

July 8th, 2008, 03:06 PM

someone from another table talking to their friends saying "Check out that hippy, etc with the long hair"
Depends if it is "*naughty word* hippy", or ":agape: hippy".

Bill

July 8th, 2008, 03:24 PM

Ys i agree with what you have said but i would like to make two points,

1. No matter what way society swings men will always have a different look style to women, for example if it were the norm for men to have long hair then the opposite would be for women, men and women have never dressed exactly the same.

Suppose that it was the norm for both men and women to wear long hair? You don't have to go back too far in history to find exactly that. Take a look a a painting of Issac Newton (http://www.creationism.org/books/TaylorInMindsMen/TaylorIMMmaIsaacNewtonM.jpg) or Louis XIV (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/3/3a/250px-Louis_XIV_of_France.jpg) of France. Women most certainly did not wear their hair short back then.

As far as my personal preference goes I usually find women with long hair very attractive, the longer the better. At the same time I like to wear my own long. Hair style is another matter. I'm glad to see guys wearing their hair in halftails, braids, buns and almost any other way that they want to. In most cases, except possibly formal updos, unless a guy is trying to cross dress or something, style should not be a gender question either.

Alun

July 8th, 2008, 03:30 PM

People, when they have something different about them, often wait for people to react to that. So if you have something out of the societal 'norm' you're going to be sensitive to that, for the most part. When someone picks up on it, you can magnify the reaction [or reality] of the situation some. It's sort of the 'salt in the wounds concept'. But setting up little sociological traps by waiting for someone to comment on what is not the 'norm' about us, isn't really a fair appraisal of society's actual reaction. This is a point in itself and is not aimed at the OP.

It's true that if you want to be different, then you can't expect people not to react to it. I've never wanted to be conventional or to really conform, and I've learnt to live with the fact that some people won't like it.

OTOH, good manners have always been to say nothing atall if you can't say anything good about someone. For example, it would be rude to approach a punk and tell them that you really can't stand their green mohican hair (actually, I would feel that it was refreshing to see such a style, although I wouldn't want to adopt it, but we aren't really talking about me). So, if it is a sociological trap to deliberately look different, then what it is, is a trap that often successfully separates those with good manners from those with none! That can be valuable information that you might not have if you looked like a clone.

Of course, if someone says something neutral, like "you have long hair", they may not be able to prevent certain involuntary signs that say they really don't like it, but that's not really objectionable as such.

It's also true that our nearest and dearest often feel that they don't need to be polite because they are so close to us. Much has been written on this board about that topic already.

I think I'm beginning to sound like Miss Manners, LOL!

However, some highly conventional people tend to assume that people who look or act differently from them, or refuse to believe what they believe, do it just to p*ss them off! Or, to be more polite, they assume that we are actively trying to set a 'sociological trap'. Could it be, though, perhaps, that we happen to think that we have a right to think for ourselves and choose how we want to look, think and act (short of harming others or getting arrested) without reference to somebody else's norms that really have nothing to do with us!

peachy.pudding

July 8th, 2008, 03:39 PM

Suppose that it was the norm for both men and women to wear long hair? You don't have to go back too far in history to find exactly that. Take a look a a painting of Issac Newton (http://www.creationism.org/books/TaylorInMindsMen/TaylorIMMmaIsaacNewtonM.jpg) or Louis XIV (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/3/3a/250px-Louis_XIV_of_France.jpg) of France. Women most certainly did not wear their hair short back then.

As far as my personal preference goes I usually find women with long hair very attractive, the longer the better. At the same time I like to wear my own long. Hair style is another matter. I'm glad to see guys wearing their hair in halftails, braids, buns and almost any other way that they want to. In most cases, except possibly formal updos, unless a guy is trying to cross dress or something, style should not be a gender question either.

I agree, hair is not something i find girly on men, quite the opposite, it brings out their masculine features, i was just refering to other things that are out of the norn for example a man wearing hig heels and pink mini skirt and a bra, i find this strange and not of someone who is male but someone who is male but wants to be womanly etc, not the fact that it should be unisex, if that makes sence

Chrissy

July 8th, 2008, 03:47 PM

I think many times people put people in boxes by how they look. One example is a really good friend of mine. We are both Christians. She dresses very dark/goth like. Black hair, dark black makeup etc. She loves God just as much as the others there but she was tired of being perceived as a rebel or a heathen by those who juged her by only her looks. (How's that for a run on sentence?) Anyway people assumed because she looked like that she couldn't possibly be a Christian etc. She was a great person and a great friend.
I think many people try and assume they know what someone is about by there preconceived notions on how they look. If they look like that then they must be this....

I hope that made sence!! I try really hard not to judge someone that way. Although I am human and I am sure I have made that mistake.

purplebubba

July 8th, 2008, 03:49 PM

Depends if it is "*naughty word* hippy", or ":agape: hippy".

In the situation I mentioned you'd be able to tell that they meant it as an insult.

The word itself does not bother me. It's the intent of use.

I could be sitting in the restaurant and at one table someone could say "that guy must be a member of a long hair forum" and at another someone says the same thing. One could be insulting me and the other might not be.

ETA: Hopefully I'd have the courage to figure it out. I'd probably be inside my shell.

ETA: When the guy with the long hair called me a hippy I didn't know it was a joke until he called me a hippy the second time because I was so busy trying to ignore what I thought was an insult.

It's a shame that I even have to think that such things are insults but that's how I've been conditioned.

ETA: I know I'm contradicting myself.

Bill

July 8th, 2008, 03:52 PM

... i find this strange and not of someone who is male but someone who is male but wants to be womanly etc, not the fact that it should be unisex, if that makes sence

It makes perfect sense.

What do you think about the style issue? I see a lot of guys wearing halftails but have only seen one guy wear a bun. I thought that he had it in a high ponytail until he turned sideways. I don't think that it made him look feminine at all but it must have taken some real nerve to wear it in public like that the first time.

getoffmyskittle

July 8th, 2008, 04:02 PM

I agree, hair is not something i find girly on men, quite the opposite, it brings out their masculine features, i was just refering to other things that are out of the norn for example a man wearing hig heels and pink mini skirt and a bra, i find this strange and not of someone who is male but someone who is male but wants to be womanly etc, not the fact that it should be unisex, if that makes sence

You know, men have worn pink, skirts (some men still wear kilts), hose, ribbons in their hair, and high heels in the past. And it's been considered masculine by society.

She loves God just as much as the others there but she was tired of being perceived as a rebel or a heathen by those who juged her by only her looks.(How's that for a run on sentence?) Anyway people assumed because she looked like that she couldn't possibly be a Christian etc. She was a great person and a great friend.

My brain just broke. Not because people didn't think your friend was a Christian, but because the word "heathen" was just used in all seriousness. And because of the implication that not being Christian makes you less of a person and less of a friend.

LisaButz2001

July 8th, 2008, 04:17 PM

This is a hijack for Shadow Walker: I know what else you could do-file a lawsuit. I'm sure they're violating some civil rights. My sympathies, you hadn't updated your last co-worker thread, so I assumed the issue was dead, apparantly not.

Chrissy

July 8th, 2008, 04:31 PM

You know, men have worn pink, skirts (some men still wear kilts), hose, ribbons in their hair, and high heels in the past. And it's been considered masculine by society.

My brain just broke. Not because people didn't think your friend was a Christian, but because the word "heathen" was just used in all seriousness. And because of the implication that not being Christian makes you less of a person and less of a friend.

Oh sorry! I'm saying that that is what people thought, not the way I feel. I'm not trying to say that not being a Christian makes you less of a person. I'm really sorry! I was not trying to say any of that! I don't feel that way at all. Sorry again. I didn't mean to upset anyone. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything. I really did not mean to come off like that at all. That's not the kind of person I am. Did I say I'm sorry you perceived it that way.

PS: I have friends that aren't Christian and I don't think they are less than at all. I'm not that kind of judgemental person. Really!

Lady Godiva

July 8th, 2008, 04:32 PM

2. I think these boundaries are good, what women wants to be mistaken for a man or vise versa? Would you like it if people thought you husband was a girl until he spoke?As a child, I cared very deeply, but as an adult, I'm quite over it. My hair has taught me the value of being very different, and sometimes it just depends on my mood and preference for the moment how tough or docile I can be. :)

As for my husband, it's happened to him several times, as he has long, sleek hair and is very slim, so from the back view, he has been mistaken as a woman, especially if seated and they cannot see his arms. Then he's turned around, and everyone gets a good laugh. The joke isn't on my husband, but it's on the person making the mistake. That's the person who is embarrassed, and those who witness the moment realize it's because that person made a judgment based on standard sex stereotypes. It really doesn't affect me except I get to tell more such stories, which is fun! ;)

I'll also state that I'm not fond of the concept of "opposite" sexes. There's a continuum because biologically speaking, humans come in varying types, not just XX and XY, but there are more varieties, including some XXX females and XYY males. Now those might be genuinely "opposite." Still, there are a myriad more types, including people who display both sets of genitalia (hermaphroditism), or like the child you mentioned who had none (wow!), as well as some whose innate sensibilities rise in conflict with their chromosomes or outward display. Sure, it's easy to function as though there are just two, but I recall learning how in some ancient cultures (Mediterranean?), hermaphrodites were considered especially blessed and spiritually closer to God or the gods (my memory is foggy). Anyhow, we talk in terms of male and female, but they're probably somewhat limited terms.

getoffmyskittle

July 8th, 2008, 04:33 PM

Oh sorry! I'm saying that that is what people thought, not the way I feel. I'm not trying to say that not being a Christian makes you less of a person. I'm really sorry! I was not trying to say any of that! I don't feel that way at all. Sorry again. I didn't mean to upset anyone. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything. I really did not mean to come off like that at all. That's not the kind of person I am. Did I say I'm sorry you perceived it that way.

It's all good. :grin:

Chrissy

July 8th, 2008, 04:35 PM

It's all good. :grin:

Thanks!! :)

Riot Crrl

July 8th, 2008, 04:44 PM

I keep reading this thread title as "prejudice [in favor of] men with long hair" and thinking, "Yes, I have that."

FrannyG

July 8th, 2008, 04:49 PM

Naluin

July 8th, 2008, 05:29 PM

If i may just say, that on one of the most famous studies in America proved that people are not taught they are a man or a woman but they are born with it in them. For example one couple decided to raise thier little boy as a girl, he eventully said no i want to be a boy, even though he was not born with sex organs, he said this before puberty.

The main way you can tell someone is by the way the dress, some women can look like men, but if i see that person has earings in both ears a pink hairband etc then i know oh its a girl, i can also see that there are somethings which are conditioned for example what beauty is, but men and women the majority are quite opposite from one another and like the difference in clothes and other dressings we have.

Again no offence intended just my opinion

I didn't say that there was no such thing as gender at all. I was merely pointing out that a lot of "gendered" things are not innate, but learned. Such learned things include what kind of clothing we wear to signify or oversignify gender.

No offense taken. ;) Just trying to clarify my stance.

akurah

July 8th, 2008, 05:31 PM

If someone called me Canadian, I would not take offense. I'd think they're nuts, and if they were doing it derogatorily, I'd likely be annoyed--but being called Canadian in and of itself would not anger me. I'm an American.

Likewise, if someone called me a guy, I would not be offended in the least. I might think they're bonkers, and they might irritate me if they were trying to be offensive, but the fact someone called me a guy would not offend me.

Life is a lot less painful when one makes a conscious decision not to be offended by petty stuff such as being called a girl/boy regardless of your actual gender. If it was an honest mistake? Oops! If they were doing it out of spite, it's another story--let their spitefulness be the cause for offense, not the words.

purplebubba

July 8th, 2008, 05:44 PM

For example one couple decided to raise thier little boy as a girl, he eventully said no i want to be a boy, even though he was not born with sex organs, he said this before puberty.

What I see as a possibility in this case is that this child saw other boys dressing a certain way and girls dressing a different way and may have decided that he didn't like being different from the others. If this child were exposed to all sorts of children dressing all sorts of ways perhaps he may have not noticed being raised a certain way. Then again maybe he might have.

Nothing is going to change unless the things that are "not normal" are done enough to make them either "normal" or just another part of the mix.

It reminds me of trying to categorize a website. You start off with a few basic categories and think you have them all covered but then you start trying to put things in the categories and find that they fit more than one or need a different category. Even when something is clearly labeled the contents might not be as clearly defined.

To some I am an overweight male in my 30's with really long hair and facial hair. To others I may just be some guy. And then there are those who still ask for my ID. And some just call me Uncle Bubba.

Beatnik Guy

July 8th, 2008, 06:08 PM

Life is a lot less painful when one makes a conscious decision not to be offended by petty stuff
:agree:

890

RavennaNight

July 8th, 2008, 06:32 PM

They will always be execptions, but i was generalising, i didnt say men didnt wear it but its not generally the most liked colour by males. I used poor examples but i just wanted to make clear, that many women would not feel comfortable being treated like or thought of as a man and vise versa, and also the point or trying to ass of as the opposite sex etc

again no offence intended.

none taken :) this discussion has been lively. I wouldnt be comfortable being percieved as a man. I thought you meant its not okay for us ladies to do mens work or vice versa. DH gets hit on more when he wears his pink polo and I think its hillarious! :D

CountessDeJager

July 8th, 2008, 06:49 PM

The world needs more Tomm curls on those that wish to wear them! Jojo can convince her husband if anybody can. :)

The reason pink is more for girls is because women like this colour not just because it swang that way, most guys like the colour blue also, not just because society says.

Actually, color associations are made because society says. Blue has been for girls and pink for boys (http://iamtransgendered.com/PinkWasNotForGirls.aspx) far longer than the current flipped version has held sway if the results of a cursory search are to be believed.

The main way you can tell someone is by the way the dress, some women can look like men, but if i see that person has earings in both ears a pink hairband etc then i know oh its a girl, i can also see that there are somethings which are conditioned for example what beauty is, but men and women the majority are quite opposite from one another and like the difference in clothes and other dressings we have.

Like Lady Godiva I find that women and men are complementary rather than opposites given how many traits are shared rather than exclusive domains of one or the other. The societal cues to gender seem arbitrary, especially when so much of what is used to differentiate us can be found on the other gender in different places or times. I don't wear earrings, makeup, or pink headbands but in a ball cap, tee shirt, sneakers, and jeans I still reliably come across as the woman I am. It is because I know from my own experience that I am a girl with or without a dress that the same holds true for boys.

Men and women generally come with enough biological clues to their gender that the clothing and other styles are not necessary yet still those cues tend to be held as important. As has been mentioned earlier, both men and women wear skirts. One I am attracted to and the other I identify with. Never had a problem telling the difference between the skirted women and skirted men. Having spent time with men who are stifled by the limitations on what is considered clothing appropriate to their gender I can easily say the desire to limit clothes by gender is not universal. I have many friends that want to be able to wear skirts as men, not imitating females, but while completely presenting themselves as the men they are. Sure a male skirt makes it down the runway from time to time (http://www.metmuseum.org/Special/se_event.asp?OccurrenceId=%7B823731F9-6846-4D66-AFF5-AB57B724C97A%7D) but they aren't on the racks at Wal-Mart. The beauty of long hair has been that it is already accessible to men so can be popularized.

For some reason people feel that knowing the gender of people they see is important. It can nag at people when someone can not be surely categorized right away and long haired men certainly have caused that kind of confusion at times. I'm wondering if wanting the speediest identification of gender is a leftover trait for survival, are we trying to size people up to sort them into categories of 'mate with' or 'rival'? Women who are mistaken for men don't seem to have the same cultural impact as mistaken men though. Interesting stuff to ponder.

Why, would any hetrosexual male care how long another male wears his hair? I have never been able to quite figure this one out!

Interestingly, my Bill D. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=905) doesn't seem to get those reactions and I think the thinning hair on top is one factor. He isn't going to strike many guys as female while on the other hand someone like my near hairtwin Dave Decker (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=511) can cause a great deal of double takes. Some of the men who want to enforce the idea that long hair is for women only probably do have the expectation that the hair they see is for ogling and realizing they have checked out another man after the fact is disturbing. Dave and others who were there at the time (but before my time) will certainly remember the harsh reaction on The Long Hair Site (devoted to female hair) when Dave was pictured with Lady Godiva and another female friend. A small but regrettably vocal group of insecure men looked at the photo for their long hair fix and didn't like that they were "tricked" by a man being in the shot. While long haired, a balding man is not threatening in that way at all since the confusion is way less likely to occur.

Gumball

July 8th, 2008, 10:10 PM

I've got to say I've been mistaken for a woman from behind, but that's no real big deal. I know I'm not. Who am I to get riled at a person for just using their preconceived notion and having it not hit its mark? Heck, maybe I've altered the person's perception just a little bit by that small interaction. I'm not wholly afraid to style my hair either. I've worn buns, braids, pigtails, etc. out and usually I get more compliments than flak.

In this giant cauldron of life, this soup we wade in daily, some ingredients clash, some marry perfectly, and some just need some time to simmer before we achieve harmony.

Dulci

July 8th, 2008, 10:31 PM

...In this giant cauldron of life, this soup we wade in daily, some ingredients clash, some marry perfectly, and some just need some time to simmer before we achieve harmony.

I love this! :applause

Fyral

July 8th, 2008, 11:38 PM

on the topic of colour associations, i've also heard that the whole pink for girls blue for boys thing used to be reversed. not entirely sure why they switched but i did hear somewhere that there is a slight difference in the way males and females view colours, something where the warm colours register better to a guys eyes and cool colours to a womans. or something like that (might have them mixed up) and i've completely lost track of where i was going with this.

and now that the thread has been completely de-railed. back on topic, prejudice vs men with long hair sucks and should be shot with a cheese gun

RavennaNight

July 9th, 2008, 12:00 AM

Fyral

July 9th, 2008, 01:05 AM

or blue cheese, because that stuffs just strange

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 02:19 AM

It makes perfect sense.

What do you think about the style issue? I see a lot of guys wearing halftails but have only seen one guy wear a bun. I thought that he had it in a high ponytail until he turned sideways. I don't think that it made him look feminine at all but it must have taken some real nerve to wear it in public like that the first time.

This is a very deep question, and of course just my opinion, if a guy wore high pigtails, yes i may think he was gay (no offence to anyone just my first thought) now if another guy wore low pigtails with hairbands with a skull or something on them i would not think it was girly or feminine.

If a guy want to do something that a woman usually does but he makes it his own and not does it because he want to be feminine then thats different. However i know women love to shop and i cannot see a guy in the supermarket shopping for hours on end for makeup, clothes, and all the other things women get.

I guess my point is i find men attractive because they are MEN, if they were to look girly or appeare as a woman i would would be single for the rest off, i like a man to be opposite from a woman, thats not to say ha cannot wear pink or have a bun, but one thing at a time not altogether.

again no offence just my opinion

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 02:25 AM

As a child, I cared very deeply, but as an adult, I'm quite over it. My hair has taught me the value of being very different, and sometimes it just depends on my mood and preference for the moment how tough or docile I can be. :)

As for my husband, it's happened to him several times, as he has long, sleek hair and is very slim, so from the back view, he has been mistaken as a woman, especially if seated and they cannot see his arms. Then he's turned around, and everyone gets a good laugh. The joke isn't on my husband, but it's on the person making the mistake. That's the person who is embarrassed, and those who witness the moment realize it's because that person made a judgment based on standard sex stereotypes. It really doesn't affect me except I get to tell more such stories, which is fun! ;)

I'll also state that I'm not fond of the concept of "opposite" sexes. There's a continuum because biologically speaking, humans come in varying types, not just XX and XY, but there are more varieties, including some XXX females and XYY males. Now those might be genuinely "opposite." Still, there are a myriad more types, including people who display both sets of genitalia (hermaphroditism), or like the child you mentioned who had none (wow!), as well as some whose innate sensibilities rise in conflict with their chromosomes or outward display. Sure, it's easy to function as though there are just two, but I recall learning how in some ancient cultures (Mediterranean?), hermaphrodites were considered especially blessed and spiritually closer to God or the gods (my memory is foggy). Anyhow, we talk in terms of male and female, but they're probably somewhat limited terms.

Thank you that was very interesting, i guess like what i said to Bill, is that i believe men and women are different, i am not talking physically but also emotionally etc. Ask yourself would you still be attracted to men if they all looked like females? In my opinion i like the fact that men and women are different.

Lets say that tomo it would be acceptable in society for all men to dress in whatever women can wear etc, i am guessing not men many would ruch out and buy makeup, heels, ribbons etc etc, how many men do you know who even like to shop? or women who like to watch sky sports all day? Even if we look at occupations, its rare to see a female mechanic or a male nail artist, because men and woman generally like different things.

Again no offence intended, just my opinion

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 02:27 AM

I didn't say that there was no such thing as gender at all. I was merely pointing out that a lot of "gendered" things are not innate, but learned. Such learned things include what kind of clothing we wear to signify or oversignify gender.

No offense taken. ;) Just trying to clarify my stance.

Thanks for clarifying :o

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 02:29 AM

What I see as a possibility in this case is that this child saw other boys dressing a certain way and girls dressing a different way and may have decided that he didn't like being different from the others. If this child were exposed to all sorts of children dressing all sorts of ways perhaps he may have not noticed being raised a certain way. Then again maybe he might have.

Nothing is going to change unless the things that are "not normal" are done enough to make them either "normal" or just another part of the mix.

It reminds me of trying to categorize a website. You start off with a few basic categories and think you have them all covered but then you start trying to put things in the categories and find that they fit more than one or need a different category. Even when something is clearly labeled the contents might not be as clearly defined.

To some I am an overweight male in my 30's with really long hair and facial hair. To others I may just be some guy. And then there are those who still ask for my ID. And some just call me Uncle Bubba.

Sorry just to clarify, he had male organs inside just not outside, however the parents said they could teach him to be a girl, his childhood he felt different he wanted to play with cars but his parents gave him barbies, it was just a study to show that men are born knowing they are men and vise versa.

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 02:31 AM

none taken :) this discussion has been lively. I wouldnt be comfortable being percieved as a man. I thought you meant its not okay for us ladies to do mens work or vice versa. DH gets hit on more when he wears his pink polo and I think its hillarious! :D

lol its been interesting, women fought for their rights and thank goodness they did, i would hate to be a housewife, i love to wake up for work.

Riot Crrl

July 9th, 2008, 02:33 AM

Thank you that was very interesting, i guess like what i said to Bill, is that i believe men and women are different, i am not talking physically but also emotionally etc. Ask yourself would you still be attracted to men if they all looked like females? In my opinion i like the fact that men and women are different.

Well, probably some of us are already attracted to females.

But in what way do you mean? Having long hair? Wearing a dress?

Lets say that tomo it would be acceptable in society for all men to dress in whatever women can wear etc, i am guessing not men many would ruch out and buy makeup, heels, ribbons etc etc, how many men do you know who even like to shop? or women who like to watch sky sports all day? Even if we look at occupations, its rare to see a female mechanic or a male nail artist, because men and woman generally like different things.

Again no offence intended, just my opinion

I am a woman and I'm not going to rush out and buy heels and makeup and ribbons either. However I am acquainted with many female sports fans, athletes, mechanics, and many male nail artists.

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 02:44 AM

Like Lady Godiva I find that women and men are complementary rather than opposites given how many traits are shared rather than exclusive domains of one or the other. The societal cues to gender seem arbitrary, especially when so much of what is used to differentiate us can be found on the other gender in different places or times. I don't wear earrings, makeup, or pink headbands but in a ball cap, tee shirt, sneakers, and jeans I still reliably come across as the woman I am. It is because I know from my own experience that I am a girl with or without a dress that the same holds true for boys.

Men and women generally come with enough biological clues to their gender that the clothing and other styles are not necessary yet still those cues tend to be held as important. As has been mentioned earlier, both men and women wear skirts. One I am attracted to and the other I identify with. Never had a problem telling the difference between the skirted women and skirted men. Having spent time with men who are stifled by the limitations on what is considered clothing appropriate to their gender I can easily say the desire to limit clothes by gender is not universal. I have many friends that want to be able to wear skirts as men, not imitating females, but while completely presenting themselves as the men they are. Sure a male skirt makes it down the runway from time to time (http://www.metmuseum.org/Special/se_event.asp?OccurrenceId=%7B823731F9-6846-4D66-AFF5-AB57B724C97A%7D) but they aren't on the racks at Wal-Mart. The beauty of long hair has been that it is already accessible to men so can be popularized.

For some reason people feel that knowing the gender of people they see is important. It can nag at people when someone can not be surely categorized right away and long haired men certainly have caused that kind of confusion at times. I'm wondering if wanting the speediest identification of gender is a leftover trait for survival, are we trying to size people up to sort them into categories of 'mate with' or 'rival'? Women who are mistaken for men don't seem to have the same cultural impact as mistaken men though. Interesting stuff to ponder.

Interestingly, my Bill D. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=905) doesn't seem to get those reactions and I think the thinning hair on top is one factor. He isn't going to strike many guys as female while on the other hand someone like my near hairtwin Dave Decker (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=511) can cause a great deal of double takes. Some of the men who want to enforce the idea that long hair is for women only probably do have the expectation that the hair they see is for ogling and realizing they have checked out another man after the fact is disturbing. Dave and others who were there at the time (but before my time) will certainly remember the harsh reaction on The Long Hair Site (devoted to female hair) when Dave was pictured with Lady Godiva and another female friend. A small but regrettably vocal group of insecure men looked at the photo for their long hair fix and didn't like that they were "tricked" by a man being in the shot. While long haired, a balding man is not threatening in that way at all since the confusion is way less likely to occur.

[/QUOTE]

I think it is important to know a persons gender, because some cultures are only aloud to mix with their own sex until marriage etc.

It is also important because it can be thought of as decieving, why would someone want to hide their sex unless they were uncomfortable with it.

I would want others to know i am female, as i am quite a girly girl, and would not like to be wrestled etc

I also like knowing that males and females have seperate toilet facilities.

Plus i love being treated as a women, its great!

again just my opinion, no offence intended

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 02:49 AM

on the topic of colour associations, i've also heard that the whole pink for girls blue for boys thing used to be reversed. not entirely sure why they switched but i did hear somewhere that there is a slight difference in the way males and females view colours, something where the warm colours register better to a guys eyes and cool colours to a womans. or something like that (might have them mixed up) and i've completely lost track of where i was going with this.

This is a great point, thank you for contributing on this area of colours, my daughter is only 3 i never dress her in pink but that is the colour she wants everytime we go shopping, i never taught her pink was for girls, she also loves dresses and dolls.

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 02:52 AM

Well, probably some of us are already attracted to females.

But in what way do you mean? Having long hair? Wearing a dress?

I am a woman and I'm not going to rush out and buy heels and makeup and ribbons either. However I am acquainted with many female sports fans, athletes, mechanics, and many male nail artists.

Thank you for this, however you are not the minority, and this is the point i am getting at. Also i do not like females in that way, so it is important that i know that whoever is hitting on me is male.

purplebubba

July 9th, 2008, 03:11 AM

Long hair does not make me male nor female. It is simply a natural thing that my human body does. My hair grew and I did not cut it. It got long.

That should be the end of the story.

As I am not how I should be.
As I am not how they want me.

I am no one's makeover project. I shouldn't have to be.

If you don't know who I am or what I am by looking at me then you may be too busy searching for a category. I might fit Human. I hope that when others look at me they can at least see a human.

bte

July 9th, 2008, 03:24 AM

I think all of this shows that generalisations are just that. I know some women who do "men's jobs" and some men who do "women's jobs" and I know people at every extreme between very girly girls and very macho men, but what we have to remember is that everyone is an individual; what they feel their true self to be is based partly on genetics and partly on experience. Long hair is for some, and presumably for all of us in this community, an important part of that true self, and it is more important for us to be able to express our true selves than to put labels and reasons on it.

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 03:38 AM

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 03:39 AM

It seems as though long hair on men is accepted in some countrys and not in others, it would be interesting for those who feel excluded or included to name those states, countrys etc

purplebubba

July 9th, 2008, 03:49 AM

It seems as though long hair on men is accepted in some countrys and not in others, it would be interesting for those who feel excluded or included to name those states, countrys etc

Where are you?

I'm in a state labeled Michigan of a larger place currently labeled USA among others.

purplebubba

July 9th, 2008, 04:09 AM

Thats great but i hope people see a women when they look at me, just as you hope someone does not see a gender in you. :o

I don't think that's what I said. I said that the hair does not make me male or female.
And I said
"If you don't know who I am or what I am by looking at me then you may be too busy searching for a category. I might fit Human. I hope that when others look at me they can at least see a human."

If a person goes beyond that and assigns a category to me that's ok as long as they do not insult me when I turn out to not fit that category or fit it the way they see it.

Nat242

July 9th, 2008, 04:30 AM

<snip>

It is also important because it can be thought of as decieving, why would someone want to hide their sex unless they were uncomfortable with it.
<snip>

Some people wish to "hide" their gender, or rather, appear androgynous, because they may not identify themselves as belonging to either gender, or they may see themselves belong to both, or, they may wish that people view them apart from, separate from their gender, and the biases, gender roles, and preconceptions that accompany gender labels.

I doubt that deception is always the motive for androgyny; more likely, it is a personal expression of who they are - like long hair is for so many of us.

-- Natalie

Nat242

July 9th, 2008, 04:35 AM

I should add that people have described me as being masculine my whole life - this is not so much due to any physical qualities, rather, it is due to personality traits that people identify as being "masculine".

I've never been offended at being called masculine - more disturbed by the fact that people were so ready to ascribe genders to personality traits.

-- Natalie

hair jim

July 9th, 2008, 04:50 AM

I'm the fist male in my family to keep their hair past age 30.. so i'm growing it till the people i work for tell me to cut it. i work in a motorcycle dealership so i kinda fit in. my wife kinda likes longer hair on me (not real long tho). the only thing she doesnt like is the time i spend on my hair.
haveA Happy Hair day!
~Jim

vidgrl007

July 9th, 2008, 05:08 AM

There is always going to be some a$$hat that is going to put you down wheather you are male or female, no matter what you do,if you dont conform to the way they think you should be.I just look at them and shake my head at there norrow minded generalizations.

Lady Verity

July 9th, 2008, 06:16 AM

Just adding my little thoughts:

I see myself as an androgynous being. I don't 'believe' in gender, really, beyond 'this one has dangly bits and that one hasn't'. I think these bodies we inhabit are cast off for a reason and, at the end of the day, we're all the same.

That doesn't mean no-one should be allowed to apply gender roles to themselves, but I choose not to. So does my boyfriend, which is why he has long hair, wears skirts and makeup and just experiments. Fortunately, we're both goths, and that sort of gender experimenting is well accepted within the subculture. :pumpkin:

lilalong

July 9th, 2008, 07:36 AM

Funny, half the guys in my physics class sported long hair.

physicschick

July 9th, 2008, 07:46 AM

Funny, half the guys in my physics class sported long hair.

In some schools, it seems to be extra common among physicists. A friend at my undergrad school used to distinguish the physicsists from the engineers, mathematicians, and such because the physicists were the ones with the long hair.

Alun

July 9th, 2008, 07:48 AM

Long hair is a default human trait - it grows unless you cut it. Anything else is learnt behaviour, but we humans have a lot of such baggage. A lot of the difference of opinion here is between the conservative view that embraces every behaviour that soceity has accumulated, and the view that most of it i superficial and meaningless.

I can easily prove that hair is not a primary sexual characteristic, and even that we can blame male short hair on the Romans, but it doesn't satisfy the person who says (metaphorically) "But I want you to wear a label so I can tell who you are". As we used to say back in the day "Hey, don't put a label on me, man!".

To put it another way, when unreconstructed hippie meets hair diva it can be a

:trainwreck:

Of course, there are some men who have long hair because they are trying to look female, but they are a tiny minority, and sadly few of them succeed, because it's usually obvious that they are men no matter what they do. If they feel that they should really be female, then it's shame that nature conspires to make it so hard for them.`

I expect that some aspects of male and female style may be inherent, but I have a hard time figuring out just what they are. Even things that people assume are inherent seldom are. Take frills and lace for example. In the time of Louis XIV all the guys who could afford to dressed that way. Perhaos it was only that the king was effeminate, and everyone copied him, but that would only prove that fashion can run completely counter to whatever might be inherent without breaking a sweat.

lilalong

July 9th, 2008, 08:03 AM

In some schools, it seems to be extra common among physicists. A friend at my undergrad school used to distinguish the physicsists from the engineers, mathematicians, and such because the physicists were the ones with the long hair.

I gave a party a couple of weeks ago and invited, among other people, some of my physics friends from Uni. I forgot what sparked the conversation, but after half an hour they started talking about their hair, hair care and other hair related things. I had to leave them to attend to some other guests and when I came back an hour later, they were still talking about their hair. It was almost a bit comical. That was a group of maybe 10 guys, long and short hairs, but each one of them had had long hair in the past few years.

I noticed, many of them tend to cut, now that they are grown up Phd students.
;)

Katze

July 9th, 2008, 08:26 AM

Take frills and lace for example. In the time of Louis XIV all the guys who could afford to dressed that way. Perhaos it was only that the king was effeminate, and everyone copied him, but that would only prove that fashion can run completely counter to whatever might be inherent without breaking a sweat.

Yep!

As far as I understand, short - above the collar - hair on men is, apart from a few exceptions (the Romans and those who copied them, the Normans and those who copied them, some others) a historical anomaly.

My dad's a painter in his spare time (oil portraits) and has been letting his hair grow a bit long in back. With his mellow personality and goatee, it really suits him, and gives him the look of an artist from the 1850s or so, which he thinks is cool. but he's still working at his profession, as a dentist, and my mom and his office manager think he looks "too hippie" with his long hair. His patients, however, have complimented him on it.

Looking at all kinds of old paintings or images, short (above the collar) hair for men is a very recent phenomenon, as in, WWI recent, from what I understand.

Personally my favorite style era for men is right around the American Revolution. Not the wigs (yuk) but the long hair, fitted coats, and tight, short pants. Yum! BF is thinking of doing Napoleon era reenactment at some time, so he'd hopefully also be running around like that.

getoffmyskittle

July 9th, 2008, 09:06 AM

burns_erin

July 9th, 2008, 09:34 AM

I love this topic multi faceted. Where I grew up it was very rural and conservative. My father had long hair and for quite some time got a lot of flack for it, but over the years as people got to know him and the quality of his work, they learned to respect him and not notice or care about his hair, admittedly there are even now after 25 years sitll people who have not met him or are not comfortable, but now it is more the exception than the rule. In any event, as i said my father always had long hair, and my mother had relativley shorter hair, like around shoulder length. And, my father was a general contractor, and as his oldest of four daughters, I often went to work with him. So, even though I had long hair like waist, hip, or even classic, since I was in the standard jeans and tank top or t-shirt with tennis shoes or work boots on, and with my relatively gender nuetral name, out with my father who is himself a long hair, most people at first glance thought I was a boy, even when I started developing a curvier physique.

In short people see what they expect to see, and what they are conditioned to see. I for one would be very pleased to see everyone raising their children with less of an emphasis on what they presume should be the "proper" gender accoutremonts(sp). I have seen too many children punissed or reprimanded for playing with the "wrong" toys. If we can let children be comfortable with all aspects of their natures, and they are varied, maybe by the time they are adults we can have less of the problems we have today.

Bill

July 9th, 2008, 10:14 AM

A friend at my undergrad school used to distinguish the physicsists from the engineers, mathematicians, and such because the physicists were the ones with the long hair.

I wonder if it could have anything to do with training? Whereas engineers and mathematicians would seem to have think inside the box, maybe physicists are required to think outside the box to a higher degree.

I'm posing this as a question not a statement.

Jen

July 9th, 2008, 10:15 AM

I love long hair.

I find long hair aesthetically appealing.

I find it looks [to me] masculine on men and feminine on women more or less in proportion to what else they do to dress/costume/present themselves.

Unfortunately my DH can not grow his hair long. He has tried several times...and if he could get over that middlin' hump he might be OK...but he has very curly red hair that get's "taller" for a long time before it gets "longer" and he doesn't like the "poof". The "poof" does look unprofessional and would cause him problems in his work [which is in a fairly conservative field].

PseudoScot

July 9th, 2008, 10:22 AM

In some schools, it seems to be extra common among physicists. A friend at my undergrad school used to distinguish the physicsists from the engineers, mathematicians, and such because the physicists were the ones with the long hair.

Now that you mention it, both the undergrad profs where I went, who taught physics, had long hair! None of the other science profs did. Huh, I'll be darned, just now realized that.:eek:

Bill

July 9th, 2008, 11:50 AM

Personally my favorite style era for men is right around the American Revolution. Not the wigs (yuk) but the long hair, fitted coats, and tight, short pants. Yum! .

It seems kind of ironic that many of those that are most opposed to guys wearing their hair long consider themselves to be "conservative". You would think that a conservative would be more likely to want to maintain the status quo which for most of history was men wearing their hair long.

I notice that not too many people addressed the main question in the Tribune article that I posted: Mothers who let their boys wear their hair long.

Some of the comments made at the Tribune site were unbelievable as this one:

If a pre-pubescent boy chooses to wear his hair long, he'd better be prepared to be perceived as a girl...AND *not* fault anyone for that perception.

That Rowan kid (as well as Celine Dion's son and Kate Hudson's son) absolutely looks like a girl. If he doesn't like being mistaken for a girl, he should either cut his hair now and grow it again when he's in high school...or accept the "isn't she cute" type comments. Simple as that.

Celine Dion's son, Rene Charles' (http://www.topnews.in/files/images/Rene_Charles_Angelil5.jpg) hair is rapidly approaching waist length. From the photo's published by the paparazzi press it would seem to me that no one should have a hard time recognizing him as a boy. The boy for his part does not seem to mind the long hair in the least either.

wintersun99

July 9th, 2008, 12:47 PM

...It seems kind of ironic that many of those that are most opposed to guys wearing their hair long consider themselves to be "conservative". You would think that a conservative would be more likely to want to maintain the status quo which for most of history was men wearing their hair long.

Forgive, if this has already been addressed, but why do you suppose the status quo has changed/evolved in what seems like, a very short period of time (historically)? I wonder if it has to do with military service? How much of a factor do you think joining the military and having one's head shaved, reflect on stereotypes going forward and what men's hair "should" be like?

Bill

July 9th, 2008, 01:37 PM

Forgive, if this has already been addressed, but why do you suppose the status quo has changed/evolved in what seems like, a very short period of time (historically)? I wonder if it has to do with military service? How much of a factor do you think joining the military and having one's head shaved, reflect on stereotypes going forward and what men's hair "should" be like?

Good point. George Armstrong Custer was the last high profile U.S. military officer that I can think of that wore his hair long. While the military was definitely the first to go short, outside their ranks guys still wore their hair long for quite a while, especially out West. Wild Bill Hickock and William F. Cody immediately come to mind, although Hickock only survived Custer by a couple of months (a terminal case of aces and eights I believe).

It is my feeling that it was the people that controlled the rapidly developing industrial base in America that are actually responsible. Forcing men to wear their hair short achieved two things: First it helped take away individual identity something that was not desirable in a factory setting and second it could have been viewed as a way to cut down on injuries and enhance productivity. This was particularly true out East and in other major urban areas. In my opinion it was the first of these two things that was most important to the Robber Barron's and those that followed them.

The conscription that began during WWI further enforced this prohibition but it is interesting to note that if you watch the movies made in the 1930's about the big city slums (the Dead End Kids in particular) many of the boys were portrayed with long hair. It was the conscription that began just before WWII and that did not end until the 1970's that really put the kibosh on guys wearing long hair.

Today this trend seems to be reversing itself quite dramatically. The Tribune article proves this. While many of the people that posted responses to Celine Dion having her son wear his hair long ripped into her, I think that she has done him a great favor. When he starts school he may get razzed about the long hair and decide to go short but my guess is that it will not last long. The fact that his mother approves of him wearing it long will act as a bar to society’s mandates.

peachy.pudding

July 9th, 2008, 01:43 PM

peachy.pudding, you have talked a lot about "knowing" what gender people are and having that knowledge be of ultimate importance. Do you REALLY get that confused over many people's gender if they are not wearing the "appropriate" gender clues, like pink and short hair, to help you out? :confused: I mean, aren't breasts or lack thereof usually pretty suggestive? Facial structure? Facial hair? Body structure? Walk? Voice?

I have walked around in jeans and a blue shirt, with my hair under a hat, no makeup, no jewelry... and nobody has ever thought I was a boy. :shrug: And if they did and were made uncomfortable by it, I see the discomfort as their problem, not mine. I would be uncomfortable if I were forced to go around in a pink skirt and heels with my hair down and flowing all the time, and I shouldn't have to do that because someone else has a problem with androgyny. (Not that I'm at all androgynous anyway, hardy har, but I mean, if someone WAS, and they chose to NOT use gender clues so their gender could be easily determined, it's their body...)

haha ok let me put it this way, some men have really femmine looking faces and vise versa, however to look around for breasts, is beyond rude especially if that person is an A cup and wearing a jumper. Plus breast dont make someone a woman, men can have man boobs too.

As for myself i would be offended that someone would think i was a male, and the discomfort would be all mine, i dont have to wear heals or pink skirts, just a plain fitted top and jeans are enough i dont find mens clothing nice at all in terms of wearing it myself ewwww i cannot think of anything worse, in yet i am not a fan of high heels or skirts.

just my opinion, no offence intended

Lady Godiva

July 9th, 2008, 01:52 PM

Ask yourself would you still be attracted to men if they all looked like females? In my opinion i like the fact that men and women are different.Like others, I’m not saying that the sexes aren’t different, but I am saying that the ways which we actually differ are slight and based on actual biology, not on culturally determined surface definitions, which is what all of hair styling, make-up, fashion, work and social activities boil down to. These things are trained into us starting from birth. The only real differences exist for means of procreation, and regardless of what any one of us might feel comfortable with and therefore prefer, we cannot say what works for everyone or even for the majority of men or women.

Some years ago, there was a study done on a group of women, who were placed in a large nursery setting. Each of them was presented with a baby to play with for a while. All the babies were dressed stereotypically as one sex at first, so they all appeared to be either boys or girls. After a short while, the babies were removed from the room, and a little while later, they were returned, except they were dressed as the other sex, again dressed stereotypically. The babies were the same children, but when they were dressed as boys, the women let them roam farther, build structures with blocks, make cars go “vroom” and even take physical risks, such as climbing a bit. When the same babies were dressed as girls, the women reverted to “protecting” them far more, did not let them roam much, kept them from building structures and playing with cars, did not let them climb, and instead handed them dolls to play with. The women also cuddled and stroked the "girl" babies more. They didn’t hand the “boys” dolls or cuddle them as much.

These were the same babies, and both times that they were brought into the room, they were a mixed group by sexes. All babies were presented with the same wide range of activities, so all were capable of all of the activities, but it was being trained into them, based solely on the surface clothing – not their actual sexes – what their roles should be, that boys should create, explore and be adventurous, and girls should be restricted, kept “safe,” do primarily nurturing tasks, and need reassurance from others in way that boys supposedly did not need. This is what we’re talking about here. All of this is applied, learned attitudes and behaviors, learned interests and preferences, and it goes back to conditioning that starts in infancy.

Lets say that tomo it would be acceptable in society for all men to dress in whatever women can wear etc, i am guessing not men many would ruch out and buy makeup, heels, ribbons etc etc, how many men do you know who even like to shop? or women who like to watch sky sports all day? Even if we look at occupations, its rare to see a female mechanic or a male nail artist, because men and woman generally like different things.It never happens overnight. It takes spans of time. When trousers/pants initially became an option for women last century, most women balked at the idea and few rushed out to own them. That was a long time ago. Look at what women wear today. In ancient times, men did wear skirts (called “robes”), not pants, right? 200 years ago, men wore ribbons in their hair. I happen to think that’s a great look, and if a ribbon is on a man, then it’s a masculine thing.

It is also important because it can be thought of as decieving, why would someone want to hide their sex unless they were uncomfortable with it.Why leap to conclude that a person’s intent would be to deceive? Couldn’t it be anything else? Natalie brought up one reason:

Some people wish to "hide" their gender, or rather, appear androgynous, because they may not identify themselves as belonging to either gender, or they may see themselves belong to both, or, they may wish that people view them apart from, separate from their gender, and the biases, gender roles, and preconceptions that accompany gender labels.
Here’s another reason. I know someone who prefers to be androgynous for reasons of privacy. This person prefers to go about life with other people knowing as little as possible about that person, including what sex this person is. This person also is a very conservative person in several ways. The point is that we never can presume to know what other people mean or intend without asking them about their motives, which behavior might be considered intrusive and rude. Hence, we should back off and just not presume we know to begin with. That’s the safest and wisest position to take without asking.

Peachy, I may seem to be picking on you. Nah, I just find the subject interesting! :wink:

lilalong

July 9th, 2008, 01:59 PM

haha ok let me put it this way, some men have really femmine looking faces and vise versa, however to look around for breasts, is beyond rude especially if that person is an A cup and wearing a jumper. Plus breast dont make someone a woman, men can have man boobs too.

Peachy.pudding, sorry for dragging this out longer, but your perspective is intriguing to me, mostly because it doesn't match my experience at all.

Do you know a lot of guys that are easily mistaken for girls? Because I just mentally counted among all my friends and I can't think about one single guy I would ever, even for a second, mistake for a girl, even if he was wearing a skirt an heals (Perhaps from the back if he has long hair). Same goes for short haired girls in jeans and men shirts.

So do you know an unusual amount of androgynous men? Or do you have troubles telling the sexes apart?
I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm just honestly baffled.

Lady Godiva

July 9th, 2008, 02:00 PM

I'm in a state labeled Michigan of a larger place currently labeled USA among others.I love this. Everything human-labeled might as well as be considered temporary. Nature can always wipe it out.

I can easily prove that hair is not a primary sexual characteristic, and even that we can blame male short hair on the Romans, but it doesn't satisfy the person who says (metaphorically) "But I want you to wear a label so I can tell who you are".I’m sure there are those here who can speak more authoritatively than I on biology, but when I think about primary gender identifiers, secondary gender identifiers, and so forth, hair seems like a tertiary gender identifier, and fashion would be quaternary/fourth. Anyone know?

Personally my favorite style era for men is right around the American Revolution. Not the wigs (yuk) but the long hair, fitted coats, and tight, short pants. Yum! BF is thinking of doing Napoleon era reenactment at some time, so he'd hopefully also be running around like that.So I’ve read, George Washington was considered very attractive to the women of his time partly because of the shape of his calves, which were enhanced by the hosiery that men wore in those days. Today, we don’t think of hiking a man’s pants up so we can see his calves and socks, do we? :lol:

I for one would be very pleased to see everyone raising their children with less of an emphasis on what they presume should be the "proper" gender accoutremonts(sp). I have seen too many children punissed or reprimanded for playing with the "wrong" toys.A boy whom I babysat when he was 5 and 6 years old loved playing with Barbies. I never forced them, but as they were around with the other toys, he always gravitated toward them. Thankfully his father didn’t see any problems with letting his son just be himself, either! :cool:

burns_erin

July 9th, 2008, 03:30 PM

A boy whom I babysat when he was 5 and 6 years old loved playing with Barbies. I never forced them, but as they were around with the other toys, he always gravitated toward them. Thankfully his father didn’t see any problems with letting his son just be himself, either! :cool:

I have a friend who has a son who loves carrying around a purse, playing with hair, and to some extent dolls. His father threw fits proclaining "no son of mine is going to grow up to be a fairy". It was right about the time he started doing this that the father shaved all his beautiful blonde curls off, against the mother's wishes I might add. I was rather fortunate to grow up rather andorgynous with GI Joes and Tonka Trucks to go along with my Barbies, but around here, most kids are not so fortunate.

CountessDeJager

July 9th, 2008, 04:17 PM

Today, we don’t think of hiking a man’s pants up so we can see his calves and socks, do we? :lol:

No, but I have developed an appreciation of the male body in revealing clothes, in my case form fitting skirts though for other women I know tight pants on a guy set their heart aflutter. I think I learned it from my mom, she is always very complimentary of the well developed calf muscles on bicyclists. :) Male boxers, bodybuilders, and swimmers also come to mind as culturally appropriate ways men may show off their physique. Consider the difference in formal wear for women who may bare much skin while to be dressed up men are expected to wear more than the usual amount of clothes hiding their body, perhaps similar to the attitude of dressy male long hair being tamed styles like a minimizing ponytail.

A boy whom I babysat when he was 5 and 6 years old loved playing with Barbies. I never forced them, but as they were around with the other toys, he always gravitated toward them. Thankfully his father didn’t see any problems with letting his son just be himself, either! :cool:

In short people see what they expect to see, and what they are conditioned to see. I for one would be very pleased to see everyone raising their children with less of an emphasis on what they presume should be the "proper" gender accoutremonts(sp). I have seen too many children punissed or reprimanded for playing with the "wrong" toys. If we can let children be comfortable with all aspects of their natures, and they are varied, maybe by the time they are adults we can have less of the problems we have today.

Both Lady Godiva and burns_erin remind me in their quotes of the many possibilities for boys when permitted to follow their interests and be happier and healthier for it. Marci Riseman wrote a heartening article for The San Francisco Chronicle about her son Liam titled "My Pink Boy (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/08/13/CMGDOIM9ME1.DTL&type=printable)" I wish every Liam out there, child or adult, male or female, had such a positive and accepting environment in their lives telling them that their personal choices don't have to conform to be acceptable.

aprilmay

July 9th, 2008, 05:55 PM

Funny to see these comments. My husband cuts his hair with clippers in the summer because it is cooler and older people are more respectful and polite towards him. Hs hair grows like crazy and he is not a fan of getting it cut. My choices are he will buzz it or I get a chance at it with the scissors. Good luck! People can be real jerks about things that are none of their business.

angelic

July 9th, 2008, 08:19 PM

:confused: I mean, aren't breasts or lack thereof usually pretty suggestive? Facial structure? Facial hair? Body structure? Walk? Voice?

Gender is not always that obvious skits :flowers:. For example, I have two clients where I work where the only way I knew what gender they were "assigned at birth" was after I saw their birth certificates. Both have short hair, both have facial hair, both have "breasts" and both have fairly feminine voices. One of those clients is male, the other is female.

Admittedly, before I saw their ID I assumed that the male client was female, and that the female client was male when I first met them. I saw the male client as female as his natural facial features were more effeminate, I assumed the female client was male as she wore her earrings in a masculine fashion (in one ear only)...my "bad".

Men can have breasts, women can have facial hair. There's always an exception to the rule. This is not even bringing into consideration that there are individuals out there that are born intersexed and may have internal sexual organs/hormones that don't necessary "match" the external ones, or were born with both physical sexual organs...etc.

Human beings aren't as black and white as society likes to try and paint them. I kind of like that though, as it makes my interactions with people an experience that I can learn and grow from as a person :).

getoffmyskittle

July 9th, 2008, 08:42 PM

Gender is not always that obvious skits :flowers:.

Yep, I understand this. :grin: I said "many" in my post - because, for most people, it is pretty obvious. But, there are some people who are naturally androgynous, and then for whatever reason choose not to emphasize their sex, and that is totally fine. :shrug: I don't find knowing the gender of everyone I encounter to be of terribly great importance.

WaimeaWahine

July 9th, 2008, 09:10 PM

Well I'm baffled.

It bothered me somewhat as a child to be mistaken for a boy sometimes. Who cares now?
Perhaps others here feel that their hair really defines them? :shrug:

I view people as gender neutral; a person is a person. What makes someone kind, compassionate, intelligent, or respectable has nothing at all to do with hair. Gender only becomes important when looking for a mate.

But a great deal of this subject has to do with experience and exposure. As a straight woman who grew up around a lot of gay men and in the gay community, I can tell you the majority of gay men do not have long hair.

It's not uncommon here (in a large city) to see some interesting people. I can't imagine someone being offended that a person mistook their gender based on social norms. Perhaps this is more difficult for men.

P.S. There's a gentleman here who wears a kilt and keeps his hair quite long. Embracing his ancestry no doubt. His choice is very admirable.

biggeorge

July 9th, 2008, 09:18 PM

I'm a little late coming to this thread, but I do have a couple of comments.

At 6'1" and 295 lbs. and resembling more of a defensive tackle than a ballet dancer the gender identity thing never has been much of a problem for me. But I still every so often get the comments.

Last time some guy commented on my "looking like a woman" I mentioned how he must run with some pretty awful looking women to confuse me as one of them. He didn't have much to say after that.

I get very few negative comments, but do get some "why are you doing that" questions from those who have known me for a while. My typical reply is along the lines of it being legal, has no negative health effects, hurts no one, and doesn't change who I am. If my "vice" is that benign then I am in good shape.

My having long hair tends to confuse people, especially here in the area in which I live. I am a conservative, a Republican, in business for myself, and fit almost none of the typical stereotypes of "men with long hair". I find it funny when people ask if I ride a motorcycle. I don't.

We all run across the jerks now and then. Not letting them get under your skin is the key. Accept them for what they are.

Bill

July 10th, 2008, 01:21 AM

He didn't have much to say after that

He obviously had a very high IQ...

Elenna

July 10th, 2008, 01:55 AM

I was at a meeting tonight. One of the ladies is androgynous. She is very slender, no make up, plainly dressed, and very short hair. I don't see her as trying to look like a guy. She just looks like she's comfortable and expresses her personality. She seems rather carefree.

I'm very "girly" so there is quite a constrast between us.

Katze

July 10th, 2008, 04:49 AM

on the subject of androgyny, it's very interesting how nervous people get when they "can't tell" "what" someone is. Anyone remember Saturday Night Live's "Pat?" I always thought of David Bowie and others who cultivated an androgynous look as super attractive, magical, otherworldly, not smarmy and gross like Pat. I never got the point of "Pat" and was always kind of offended.

As a kid I rode a boy's bike, had short hair, and hated dresses and girly stuff. I remember getting really offended when someone asked me "are you a boy or a girl" when I was about 4. My answer? "I'm a KITTY!!!" (in other words, neither/nor, or both)

When I was a bike racer and still very feminine in figure (even more so as I was leaner) I had a short, very masculine haircut and was really aggressive on the road. I got called "sir" on AND off the bike, WHILE WEARING SPANDEX, because people "read" my gender as "male" (self-confidence, assertiveness). Mind you, I was a C cup then and had wide hips...! But people would literally address me as "he" when I was standing in front of them in skintight clothing! Go figure.

As Big George's example illustrates, some people only see the most superficial outward appearance and automatically assume/assign gender, which I find so strange.

In former times many women passed as men, joined the military, all that kind of stuff, which was easier because their gender was "read" from their clothing, so they were able to live as men, often not detected for many years. Obviously a short person with a slight or rounded figure could more easily be seen as male than a six-footer with a deep voice could be "read" as female...

One thing I love about questioning gender identity is that when we look deep enough, all of us can find areas where we transgress, cross boundaries, or somehow are not "typical" for our society's current concept of "male" or "female". This makes us as a species richer and all the more interesting, especially when you factor in attraction and other kinds of interpersonal relations!

I'm really lucky that my BF prefers, as he told me last night "women with broad shoulders and strong legs." His personal preference - strong women - and mine - men who aren't afraid to show their feminine side, but are clearly MEN (and thus secure in their masculinity, not homophobic or macho) - fit nicely together. And I am proud that a man like him (badass, honorable, long haired, brilliant) is a school teacher in a "bad neighborhood" where he can be a good male role model for the boys he teaches.

heidi w.

July 10th, 2008, 09:08 AM

I have been in geographic zonages where long hair on a man is nothing, barely noticeable. I have been in other zonages in the country where it would be a HUGE issue since the status quo is that men aren't men if they have long hair.

I would say ignoring commentary is typically the best option, but sometimes you have to step up to your party poopers and let them know, well, that they're party poopers.

It also takes a certain type of personality to be willing to stick to their guns in the middle of such heat.

Here's what I mean:
I once had a student, a male, who played the flute extremely well and was clearly gifted musically and technically. However, at school he was seriously harassed about being, well, you can guess at the litany of mean commentary by fellow kids (high school age). At first, I thought it was just a little bit, and he was a pretty strong personality and could take it a little bit. But he kept telling me about things, and he told his parents. All of us told him to dismiss it. Then one day he shared some more stuff with me and additionally told me his parents just keep telling him to ignore it, but he was prepared to quit. I looked at him and after the lesson spoke to his father privately.

I spoke to the father and basically explained that this kid was being seriously harassed at school, on a daily basis, and it was beyond mere occasional commentary and teasing. Mostly, his son was VERY upset by all the flack he was receiving and that he needed to go to the principle of the school and request for the behavior to cease. I explained that his son managed to convince me he was going to quit, and I hated to see that happen because I figured he'd later regret it.

The father paid attention and did his thing, and all became better.

The point I'm getting at for this man is that what he needs to hear is not only support but recognition of the feeling he's experiencing. For him, in his view, the harassing is really harassing and beyond joking and teasing. For him, this idea of going long may be a new experience and he never really (yet) had to deal with going against the grain. That's a whole new thing to many people. How to deal with such naysayers isn't always easy because it could be friends and coworkers, the people he actually needs to get along with for various reasons, and it may be too threatening in its way what these people are saying.

So, maybe what this man needs is some brain storming on how to address these folks since ignoring isn't working, instead of him sabotaging his plans and goals to get the thems of this world off his back.

I hope this makes some sense and is helpful. I do believe this S.O. is doing her very best to be supportive and helpful, but viewing it a little more from his experience and perspective might be helpful for coming up with real solutions to the problem. I think it's very ok if this guy just walks up to these jerks and states his peace, "Look, man, I'm happy, this is what I want. I didn't ask for your approval and I expect you to respect me. I would appreciate it if we could go on being the friends that we really are." It may be a little too touchy-feely but something kinda along those lines might be more helpful if the commentary is beyond an occasional jab. Sometimes you just have to tell people what's true for you. In guy speak, it's my understanding that saying nothing tends to be a sign of weakness and kinda begs for more harassment in its way. This is what I've been told, anyway.

heidi w.

nutsenmai

July 10th, 2008, 10:30 AM

Wasn't it men who traditionally wore their hair long and down, while women usually wore it up? (Think LOTR.)

Bill

July 10th, 2008, 02:17 PM

Wasn't it men who traditionally wore their hair long and down, while women usually wore it up? (Think LOTR.)

That's the funny thing about this whole argument. For most of history men have worn their hair long, it is only recently that they have been forced to wear it short. Where this thing came from that says that long hair on men is feminine is completely beyond me.

While the "feminine" issue is clearly the most rediculous of the arguments against men with long hair, it is also the most effective. Go figure.

physicschick

July 10th, 2008, 08:43 PM

I gave a party a couple of weeks ago and invited, among other people, some of my physics friends from Uni. I forgot what sparked the conversation, but after half an hour they started talking about their hair, hair care and other hair related things. I had to leave them to attend to some other guests and when I came back an hour later, they were still talking about their hair.

Too funny! I don't recall any hair conversations amongst my physics friends, but the person I know in real life with the most gorgeous hair is a guy with a physics Ph.D. Sometimes I wish he would join LHC and share his hair care secrets with us. (I'm too shy to ask him about it. :) )

I wonder if it could have anything to do with training? Whereas engineers and mathematicians would seem to have think inside the box, maybe physicists are required to think outside the box to a higher degree.

I'm posing this as a question not a statement.

Hard to say. Engineers are more focused on finding jobs in the real world and are more likely to have to interact with clients. They are certainly more conventional in dress and hairstyle. However, it's a good question why there aren't more longhairs in math. The math majors who want to teach or get jobs in an insurance company might not be as likely to have long hair, but I can't think why the rest of them don't. Mathematicians aren't any more conventional in their dress than physicists are, anyway.

Now that you mention it, both the undergrad profs where I went, who taught physics, had long hair! None of the other science profs did. Huh, I'll be darned, just now realized that.:eek:

:) And did the field biologists all have beards? I think I know the reason for that, though: it's inconvenient to shave when you're out in the field for weeks on end.

trolleypup

July 10th, 2008, 09:03 PM

This whole thing just reminds me of how if a girl is called "one of the guys" it's seen as a compliment but if a guy is called a girl it's an insult.
I've been in situations where I've felt flattered/honored to be called "one of the girls." However, I think this and many similar contradictions have much to do with perceived status and power perception than sex...just change the phrase to, say, "one of the janitors" for a similar type of effect.

However, some highly conventional people tend to assume that people who look or act differently from them, or refuse to believe what they believe, do it just to p*ss them off! Or, to be more polite, they assume that we are actively trying to set a 'sociological trap'. Could it be, though, perhaps, that we happen to think that we have a right to think for ourselves and choose how we want to look, think and act (short of harming others or getting arrested) without reference to somebody else's norms that really have nothing to do with us!
Heh! In the science fiction fandom community, this is called Freaking the Mundanes!

As for my husband, it's happened to him several times, as he has long, sleek hair and is very slim, so from the back view, he has been mistaken as a woman, especially if seated and they cannot see his arms. Then he's turned around, and everyone gets a good laugh. The joke isn't on my husband, but it's on the person making the mistake. That's the person who is embarrassed, and those who witness the moment realize it's because that person made a judgment based on standard sex stereotypes. It really doesn't affect me except I get to tell more such stories, which is fun! ;)
Pretty much. I just don't get offended...either it is by accident, which is amusing, or it is on purpose, which is, honestly, amusing, and an opportunity for me to say something snarky...because it says far more about them, than about me. I guess, what it comes down to for me, is, I'm secure about who and what I am, so what someone else says, is simply irrelevant, if it is incorrect.

Likewise, if someone called me a guy, I would not be offended in the least. I might think they're bonkers, and they might irritate me if they were trying to be offensive, but the fact someone called me a guy would not offend me.

Life is a lot less painful when one makes a conscious decision not to be offended by petty stuff such as being called a girl/boy regardless of your actual gender. If it was an honest mistake? Oops! If they were doing it out of spite, it's another story--let their spitefulness be the cause for offense, not the words.
Pretty much!

Speaking of being mistaken...I just don't see needing to have standard markers to tell if someone is a boy or girl or purposefully androgynous. Maybe I've just had a lot of exposure to variant expressions, but it is so completely a non-issue in the vast majority of cases, the very few exceptions being usually purposefully androgynous. I'd hate it if there was an absolute standard code for all the variations...variety is the spice of life. *shrug*

Why, would any hetrosexual male care how long another male wears his hair? I have never been able to quite figure this one out!
Not only to some do, but they think I should care what they think.

*boggles*

galen

July 10th, 2008, 10:42 PM

Harassment on the job is not just a problem for men with long hair.

Cheesecake Factory sued by workers.
Restaurant managers failed to take action against male-on-male sexual harassment, the complaint claims.
(http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-cheesecake11-2008jul11,0,3177927.story)
"Recent sexual harassment cases show the problem is not uncommon, O'Neill said, noting that about 16% of the commission's sexual harassment charges involve male victims, a figure that has been steadily increasing."

"There's this expectation that this doesn't happen to men," she said. "It's almost this boys-will-be-boys attitude of, 'Oh, it's just hazing, it's just teasing, you can't take it seriously.' "

Bill

July 11th, 2008, 02:56 AM

...but they think I should care what they think.

*boggles*

You shouldn't!!

As I mentioned in an earlier post; there is a whole "psycho-sexual" nutbag thing about guys wearing long hair.

If you want to wear your hair long or your girlfriend finds you attractive with it long , why in hell would you ever even consider what some idiot says to the contrary?

The whole thing boggles my mind too.

Bill

July 12th, 2008, 02:13 AM

Just an FYI:

I posted the Tribune article on the Woman's Day magazine forum just to see what the reaction would be. It is much more positive than I ever would have expected. For anyone that would like to check it out, here is a link to the forum:

Chicago Tribune: More and more boys wearing long hair (http://forums.womansday.com/tips/board/message?board.id=2&thread.id=1594487)

Riot Crrl

July 12th, 2008, 03:33 AM

Bill

July 12th, 2008, 11:24 AM

LOL, I like how the examples they came up with were Yanni and Custer. :confused:

Being geektastic myself, I have trouble remembering the demographic of something like Women's Day, and was expecting LOTR and stuff. I finally get to Qui-Gon and it's posted by Bill, hahaha.

I thought for sure that I was going to get the Jesse Jackson cure for Obama for posting that one over there. I was quite surprised.

Eboshi

July 12th, 2008, 11:36 AM

I thought for sure that I was going to get the Jesse Jackson cure for Obama for posting that one over there. I was quite surprised.

What does THAT mean ? :suspect:

danacc

July 12th, 2008, 01:08 PM

LOL, I like how the examples they came up with were Yanni and Custer. :confused:

Being geektastic myself, I have trouble remembering the demographic of something like Women's Day, and was expecting LOTR and stuff. I finally get to Qui-Gon and it's posted by Bill, hahaha.

Hee! the Custer post was by Bill, too. It looks like Yanni was posted by a female, though. I'm waiting patiently for the Aragorn and Legolas references, too. I'm not sure they're going to happen, though...

Bill

July 12th, 2008, 02:11 PM

What does THAT mean ? :suspect:

You didn't hear about what part(s) of Obamas anatomy that Jesse threatened to cut off the other day?

Hee! the Custer post was by Bill, too.

That was in response to the one that would never let her boys wear long hair--too feminine. I was also worried that she might pull out a flag and start waving it (that's why the Custer pic)

Riot Crrl

July 12th, 2008, 02:39 PM

Hee! the Custer post was by Bill, too. It looks like Yanni was posted by a female, though. I'm waiting patiently for the Aragorn and Legolas references, too. I'm not sure they're going to happen, though...

Oh haha, I didn't notice. I think Yanni happened organically, though.

getoffmyskittle

July 12th, 2008, 04:31 PM

That was in response to the one that would never let her boys wear long hair--too feminine. I was also worried that she might pull out a flag and start waving it (that's why the Custer pic)

Wait... you're trolling their forum? :crazyq:

Bill

July 13th, 2008, 01:02 AM

Wait... you're trolling their forum? :crazyq:

Not intentionally. The only reason that I chose that forum was that I was positive that their attitudes had changed in recent years--and they did. But I did hit at her kind of kind of hard with the Custer and Wild Bill Hickock post (the references to the Founding Fathers all wearing long hair also anticipated that type of response).

Should I apologize? I most certainly will if I have crossed the line.

Bill

rockkcor

July 18th, 2008, 07:33 AM

I must admit that I fear dress code! One could loose his job, or could be taken to a haircut by police in rural community…
So long hair on man is never safe… Whenever the opportunity – they’ll cut it off…
Strange how much fuss long hair on man can cause
:)

InDarkestKnight

July 28th, 2008, 05:30 AM

Hatsumomo

July 28th, 2008, 05:33 AM

Meh, it's just jealousy because the guys with long hair are comfortable enough in their gender and sexuality to wear their hair how they want.

I personally kinda like my men with long hair to be honest.

aprilmay

July 28th, 2008, 09:28 PM

I think it looks on some men and not on others.

hair jim

October 20th, 2008, 05:47 PM

i'm the first male im my family to keep hair past mid 20's
i'm gonna let i grow the best i can

NeilTheFuzz

October 20th, 2008, 06:49 PM

Unfortunatley where I live, girls my age don't seem to like guys with long hair and guys hate it - so much so that earlier this year, a gang of youths decided to kick the crap out of me. :( I'm ok now, but it is hard to cope with it. I just keep smiling. Fortunatley if you smile at people, the sane ones (95% of people) will smile back at you. Generally, I've learned to spot the bone heads who are likely to cause trouble and I steer clear of them as much as possible.

sneakybea

October 20th, 2008, 10:10 PM

I'm so sorry you had to go through that, NeiltheFuzz. Horrible that people have so much hate inside them.
I'm not going to take a stand one way or the other on guys with long hair, because it really depends on the guy, if it compliments his features, how well he cares for it, etc (just like for women!). But even if I hated the way long hair looks on guys, I would never say they shouldn't have long hair, because that sounds like a moral judgment rather than a matter of personal taste.
This discussion reminds me of a quote from Plutarch's Life of Lycurgus, in which he says of the Spartans "In times of battles the officers relaxed harsh discipline and did not stop the men from beautifying their hair, armour and clothing. Glad to see them like horses prancing and neighing before races. Long hair makes the handsome better-looking and the ugly more frightening." And the Spartans were the most badass of anyone!
Of course, the Greeks also thought the Persians were effeminate for wearing trousers. The point is, these markers of gender frequently change.

Mr_Henna_Head

October 20th, 2008, 11:02 PM

I've had long hair off and on my whole life. I was even attacked for it once. I've recently whacked it to ear length having decided to regrow it...just for fun...but better this time...using henna from the start every three weeks, he right diet, and vitamins. I've always gotten some negative comments here and there....but it just spurred me on. It's MY choice how I wear my hair...NO brother or sister, however well meaning or not, will EVER make that decision for me, or make me feel bad about it...I'm a man dammit, and it's MY choice...Woof!( beating chest) ( forgive the testosterone surge my sisters...LOL)...no matter what the remarks.
Rock on my long haired brothers!

Here's what I'm currently missing right now.
BUT, at least I know it WILL get long...and so growing it out is fun.

Here it is at 4 years, right after my 3rd henna
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/hairball73/Shawnoutsideback.jpg

and here about two months before I cut it. All flat-ironed, henndigoed, and vampire looking
at six years....and now...it's gone...but...just for now!
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/hairball73/VampireHair.jpg