"Invisible damage" and protein

[HintOfMint]

Hi everyone,

I was browsing through the forum and found that many of you attribute velcro ends to too much protein. Right now, I think I am experiencing something like that. The ends of my hair feel really rough, although there is no visible damage. A few weeks ago, I started to use mane 'n tail shampoo and conditioner which has protein in it. I have clarified and conditioned using that shampoo (it has no silicone in it) and oiled the ends and they still feel rough. I haven't had a trim since the end of December, so it could be that I'm due for a trim. I would like to delay that trim until my August appointment if at all possible.

My questions are:
To get rid of the roughness, should I trim or change shampoo/conditioner? How do I test my hair to see what I should do?
If I need to switch S&C then does anybody have any suggestions? I prefer something inexpensive, without silicone but WITH SLS (my scalp needs SLS), and obviously without protein.

Thanks in advance!

[Jenn of Pence]

This is a good question....I feel that protein does this to my ends, too. I 'pooed my ends and switched to some products without proteins, and it seemed to work (actually, my ends seemed really nice :) ). I'd suggest clarifying the ends once and moisturizing well. If it's still velcro-y, try again. If it doesn't work after that it could be something else. Hopefully that can stave off a trim!
I've been using Tresemme Naturals shampoo and conditioner; no cones, low sulfates in the shampoo, and not horribly expensive. I'm sure others can suggest some others, too.

[Kaijah]

If you think it's just from too much protein, I wouldn't trim the ends until you've clarified and spent a bit of time using protein free conditioners AND protein free shampoos. It can take a while for hair to soften up again if you've had a lot of protein - before I figured out ingredients labels I had a hard time with accidentally protein bombing my hair and ending up miserable for ages. :silly:

I really like the Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition line (it's in dark emerald green bottles, can find it anywhere practically for $4-5 for 32 oz), they're protein and 'cone free, and the shampoo does have SLS. The Tresemme Naturals stuff Jenn recommended is pretty good, too, but it felt a bit lighter on my hair in comparison to the Garnier.

Suave Naturals or V05 might work for you as well - they're SUPER cheap (.75 cents to $1.25 usually), the shampoos all have sulfates, the conditioners are cone free but some do have protein, you'd have to check the labels. Those conditioners are all extremely light IMO though, so they might not work well for balancing a protein shock.

[Anje]

Clarifying and moisturizing the ends is definitely a good route to go if you think you've got roughness due to too much protein. I'm a fan of the cheap Suave conditioners myself, but like Kaijah said, they're quite light (good for CO, perhaps not as good if you need more moisture unless you amend them with something like honey). Do check out the SMT, over in the Recipes section. It's not ideal for everyone, but a lot of us swear by it.

Mind, you don't necessarily need to switch both your shampoo and conditioner. If you like a given shampoo, feel free to stick with it. The only real reason to switch both is if you're using a more buildup-causing conditioner (such as one with lots of silicones) and a very gentle shampoo with few or no sulfates that isn't capable of getting the conditioner buildup out. An occasional clarifying wash is often sufficient to counterbalance that, though.

[FrannyG]

I agree with the others. If I were you I would definitely change shampoo and conditioner to ones that are protein-free, no question. Protein is great once in a while if you need it, but if you don't, it can make you think that you need a trim.

I suggest clarifying once again, and following with a deep moisture treatment like an SMT for at least an hour. VO5 and Suave are very good and inexpensive for SMTs. Just make sure that you look at the ingredients list to make sure that you aren't choosing one with protein.

The shampoos and conditioners recommended above are all good suggestions.

I would make sure to do another SMT within the week. If, after a month without protein, you still find that you have velcro ends, you just may be in need of a trim. I suspect that another clarifying and lots of deep moisturizing will do the trick though.

[Speckla]

My ends tend to feel like velcro right around the times they need to be trimmed. I hold up a length of hair and look at the ends. Are they broken, split, or just feel rough? even a microdusting can help....that is after you make sure it's not the products.

[seethruugirl]

How do you tell what is a protein in conditioners? How are they listed in the ingredient list? Thanks!

[Speckla]

How do you tell what is a protein in conditioners? How are they listed in the ingredient list? Thanks!

Some will say protein, keratin, silk protein, wheat protein, amino acids, soy protein, or something like that.

[Kaijah]

Some will say protein, keratin, silk protein, wheat protein, amino acids, soy protein, or something like that.

All these, and look out for anything that has "hydrolized" in front of it (ie hydrolized soy, hydrolized wheat).

[Fairlight63]

This is interesting! I was looking all through my shamp. & Cond. for protein in them & found out that a LOT of them that I have has protein in them. May explain why my hair is so velcoury. You can NOT run your hands through my hair, the strands just stick together like glue or something. I never noticed it when I had short hair it acting like this but as it gets longer it is getting worse. It is really hard to braid my hair as the strands sticks together & pull when I try to separate them. I think that it would be easier to rope braid it.
I also have hard water, that may have something to do with it also, don't know. But my hair is so tempermental that I wouldn't doubt that it affects it.
I was wondering what are some of your shamp. & cond. that you are using that are protein free? also where did you buy them at? seems like they all have SLS, cones or protein in them, it is so HARD to find some that are free of those items!
I think that I will try clarifying it with VO5 tea-tree shamp. clarifying shamp. (is that a good one to use ?) then try moisturizing it real good.

Thank you everyone!

[HintOfMint]

Thanks so much for all your help!

I guess I have a few follow-up questions.

I have SO much of my shampoo left, it is not even funny. Does a shampoo with protein used mainly at the scalp have the same effect as a conditioner with protein, in terms of the rough ends? I don't exactly marinate my hair in the shampoo the way I do with conditioner. With that in mind, do you think I could just get away with switching out the conditioner (which I use up more quickly) and not the shampoo? I hate to waste.

Also, does protein overload cause damage such as breakage and brittleness? Or does it just make ends rougher, thus prone to tangle, thus more damaged when untangled? I'm asking because I'm wondering if I can postpone switching out the conditioner until after I finish it (again, I hate to waste). If it's just a little roughness, I can deal with it by wearing my hair up. But if it will really wreak havoc on my ends and cause true damage, then I need to get to a drugstore ASAP.

Sorry I have so many questions. I've never given this much thought to my hair or the ingredients in my products.

[Anje]

Personally, I don't think protein in the shampoo makes as much difference as protein in the conditioner. I'd opt for switching the condish first, and if your hair doesn't improve, maybe switch the shampoo or alternate between it and a protein-free shampoo until it's used up.

I do think excessive protein causes damage to my hair, but a lot of that has to do with the instantly-tangly ends I get. It makes hair a bit more brittle, but I think that combing tangles too quickly is a major source for damage, and is often not completely avoidable. (I need to repeat my "slow down" mantra, but the hair retangles itself in that condition...)

As stated above, the Suave Naturals line is protein-free (except for the coconut variety), and it's cheap. Lots of VO5 is protein-free, but you need to read the labels. I think White Rain is also often a good bet, but I haven't had any around to look at. There are a fair number of products a notch up the quality list that are also protein-free, though they seem more likely to have silicones in them. The Garnier Fructis line comes to mind -- I don't see proteins in the "Length and strength" or "triple nutrition" conditioners when I look at the ingredients lists, and the "triple nutrition" also lacks silicones.

[HintOfMint]

I bought the Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition conditioner this afternoon, and not a moment too soon! This morning, I CWCed with Mane 'n Tail (the protein overload culprits), and you can SEE how dry my hair is. It is really tangling even though I had it up all day. At first I thought I could deal with a few dry ends, but no, enough is enough. It's pretty bad.

I'll borrow my mom's shampoo to clarify in a few days. Even though, as Anje pointed out, a protein shampoo shouldn't be as bad as a protein conditioner, I feel that it wouldn't really work to clarify protein build up.

Thanks again for the recommendation!

[Elenna]

.... Lots of VO5 is protein-free, but you need to read the labels. ... There are a fair number of products a notch up the quality list that are also protein-free, though they seem more likely to have silicones in them.

I have six bottles of VO5, and they all have protein. I can't find any protein free VO5 conditioners anymore. I think that these are ok to conditioner wash with though. It's the "marinating" hair in conditioners with protein that causes the problems IMHO.

I'm having quite a hard time trying to find products that are protein free, and silicon free.

[Lunami]

I use protein in my hair but not all the time. I CO and switch between several conditioners so i never really use protein two washes in a row. It's a good way to use protein for me :) Though i have noticed a lot of conditioners do contain protein, it is hard finding ones without. I also use Fructis tripe nutrition and it's a good conditioner.

[May]

Mane & Tail is for horses so perhaps that's the culprit? Horses have very different "hair" than people so I wouldn't think it's such a great idea to use shampoo & conditioner designed for equestrian use.

For an intense moisture I would try a SLS/cone/protein free 'poo & 'dish followed by a honey & deep conditioner mask (about 5-10min soak). This has always worked for me. For me personally the only thing that provides that moisture burst I need sometimes is a cone free 'dish & honey.

Best of luck and let us know how it all turns out. :pegasus:

[HintOfMint]

Hi May,

The ingredients for both the shampoo and conditioner for Mane 'n Tail are the same as many human shampoos and conditioners. The only issue is the protein level, but many shampoos and conditioners for humans have high levels of protein as well.

Keep in mind, we are the species that developed soap and for the most part we decided to clean the animals under our purview with the same methods we use to clean ourselves. There isn't a whole lot of difference between the soaps we use for ourselves and the ones we use on animals, save for marketing. Animals are often given the same medications as humans, just with different doses.

Thanks for the recommendation though! I had forgotten how awesome honey is.

[HintOfMint]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all of your advice. I guess I have a couple more questions, sorry guys. If I am just going to wash off protein buildup, will an SLS free shampoo work? I have some leftover Trader Joe Tea Tree Tingle shampoo. Or should I shimmy on to the store to get a cheap SLS, cone-free, protein free shampoo? In that case, should I get the hardcore clarifying stuff or will a more gentle one do? AAAH too many options!

[Lunami]

From what i've read, protein buildup should wash of with protein-free conditioner. I'm sure that a SLS-free shampoo should work! :)

[HintOfMint]

UPDATE!

The Triple Nutrition conditioner worked! Wow, I can't believe that protein could really screw up my hair so much. I clarified with the Trader Joe's shampoo, then heaped on the conditioner. After a few days, I CWCed, and my hair is so much softer and smoother! There is still a bit of roughness but one of y'all said I should give it a month or so, it is not an instant and wholesale reversal. But, it is pretty close. :)

Again thank y'all so much!

[christine1989]

I had the same problem but I made it much better with a little bit of castor oil on the ends. Even when I wash it out it leaves the ends feeling like I just got a trim :).

[Elenna]

The problem is using up the current inventory of shampoos & conditions that have protein. So I'm using the shampoo with protein as a body wash (waste not, want not). But will continue to use the conditioners with protein until it is all gone. Once these products are all gone, that's the time to buy protein free hair products (if possible). Protein seems to be in every hair product practically.

[GRU]

My ends felt all crinkly, and I could not believe how Sweet Almond Oil transformed them! If your ends still feel rough after another couple of weeks of your new routine, give SA Oil a try. I was ready to chop off several inches, and all I needed was SA Oil!

[HintOfMint]

The problem is using up the current inventory of shampoos & conditions that have protein. So I'm using the shampoo with protein as a body wash (waste not, want not). But will continue to use the conditioners with protein until it is all gone. Once these products are all gone, that's the time to buy protein free hair products (if possible). Protein seems to be in every hair product practically.

I feel you on that. I'm still using the mane 'n tail shampoo on my scalp as I CWC with the triple nutrition (non protein cone free) conditioner. My hair is getting much better, so the protein shampoo isn't posing a problem. I'm using the protein conditioner as a shaving cream for my legs.

To Christine1989 and GRU, those are great suggestions and very tempting. However, I have olive oil, jojoba, and coconut at the moment and I really don't want to buy anything more for my hair. My dresser is cluttered enough, and I'm actively learning how to be more frugal. "Lesson one: yes it feels good to get something new, but no, you don't NEED it. Put it down HintOfMint! Bad HintOfMint!"

[plainjanegirl]

The problem is using up the current inventory of shampoos & conditions that have protein. So I'm using the shampoo with protein as a body wash (waste not, want not). But will continue to use the conditioners with protein until it is all gone. Once these products are all gone, that's the time to buy protein free hair products (if possible). Protein seems to be in every hair product practically.


I know what you mean with protein being in a lot of stuff. Sad thing is if it is for dry hair then they are also pushing it for damaged hair which means that it normally has protein.

[HintOfMint]

Hi everyone!
So far, the Garnier Fructis conditioner has really worked with the CWC and my ends are, for the most part, no longer crispy.
However, I am in the process of the "use your stash up" challenge, and I have four bottles of V05 Vanilla Mint Tea conditioner. As with most/all V05 conditioners, it has biotin in it. In this conditioner, it is the very last ingredient. I am thinking of using it for the first leg of conditioning in my CWC routine, while continuing the Garnier conditioner for the last (longer and more intensive) leg of the routine. Do you think that reintroducing protein at the amount that is in the V05 will be bad for my hair. Or is the amount (coupled with the shorter period of time it will spend on my hair) negligible?

[Velouria]

Biotin is not any form of protein. I think it's what is called a B-vitamin co-factor, but I'm absolutely certain it's not a protein. Just went to look at my bottle of van. mint; no protein of any kind.

[Aurielle]

I've been noticing lately the my ends feel "velcro-y" and read through the ingredients on my shampoo and conditioner bottles just now. "Hydolyzed Soy Protein" is the fifth from last ingredient on the list of the conditioner ingredients so it may be that. Does anyone know if extracts of any kind are proteins? There are many extracts on the list closer to the top.

Also, my shampoo apparently has sodium chloride in it! Salt! Wouldn't that do the same damage to hair as salt sprays or ocean water? These shampoos and conditioners are supposed to be for damaged hair, not for damaging hair... :(

I think I may just need to shampoo the very ends instead of only using conditioner there, though, and maybe wash them between CWCs. They seem to get dirty faster than my scalp gets oily.

[HintOfMint]

I've been noticing lately the my ends feel "velcro-y" and read through the ingredients on my shampoo and conditioner bottles just now. "Hydolyzed Soy Protein" is the fifth from last ingredient on the list of the conditioner ingredients so it may be that. Does anyone know if extracts of any kind are proteins? There are many extracts on the list closer to the top.

Also, my shampoo apparently has sodium chloride in it! Salt! Wouldn't that do the same damage to hair as salt sprays or ocean water? These shampoos and conditioners are supposed to be for damaged hair, not for damaging hair... :(

I think I may just need to shampoo the very ends instead of only using conditioner there, though, and maybe wash them between CWCs. They seem to get dirty faster than my scalp gets oily.

The vast majority of shampoos and conditioners that I have seen have salt in them. It is to control viscosity and allow the shampoos and conditioners to be more easily rinsed off. From what I have read, salt only damages hair when it is allowed to remain and crystallize in hair. Don't worry, dear.

[pinklemonade]

I feel you on that. I'm still using the mane 'n tail shampoo on my scalp as I CWC with the triple nutrition (non protein cone free) conditioner. My hair is getting much better, so the protein shampoo isn't posing a problem. I'm using the protein conditioner as a shaving cream for my legs.


I never knew why my ends were so dry until I found LHC! Problem is that I recently bought a really large supply of SLS-FREE shampoo which contains hydrolyzed vegetable protein....sigh! What I do now is, I dilute it with water and focus mainly on my scalp and sort of tilt my head forward while washing it out (am I fooling myself that the shampoo won't get into the rest of my hair:p). I just really don't want to waste this shampoo coz I spent a lot of money on it.
Shouldn't it be ok if we use a shampoo with protein, FOLLOWED by a conditioner without protein?