Honey thread - from TBB and bits from old LHC

[ktani]

Okay, so i've been reading up for about 5 hours straight, and this seems promising! If i use this technique on jet black hair with reddish brown undertones from a previous semi-permanent dye (7 months ago, but still shows in the sun), what will be color be around? Hopefully a medium brown eventually? also, what is the best routine to do after lightening? regular 'poo and CO? and do you know if Fiji water (in the bottles sold at walmart) would be good to use for lightening? thank you so much for the answers!

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

I cannot predict exactly what colour you will get. Black hair, when lightented by any process, goes from black to brown to red to gold. Fiji water is a an artesian well water that contains minerals and I do not recommend it. http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...ticlekey=21160

I recommed distilled or deionized water, and distilled is preferable, IMO.

Here are examples of lightening dyed dark and natural black hair with old hi-lights (nayver). The number of treatments depends on how closely you follow the new recommendations and the honey you use. Some people started off with recipes that did not include distilled water and found later that they got better results with it and a different honey. Filtered, well, spring, mineral, and most tap waters and are all not recommended. They all contain minerals which can negatively affect a honey lighting recipe peroxide level.

I suggest using a recipe with cinnamon and/or cardamom added to it, after patch testing. Here is a link about choosing a honey and honey lightening boosters, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=2370. The new dilution measurements http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...ostcount=2442. More information on specifics can be found in the first post of this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...61&postcount=1.

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution and distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=2878

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=2868

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1495

gallows gallery - on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=2638

[ktani]

I use Arrowhead for the water, and that works just fine... so Fiji would probably work as well. The color you'll get - eventually - would probably be a lighter reddish brown. But its gonna take a good long while.

I tend to put a little conditioner in my hair to loosen it up, rinse really well.. then shampoo and condition as usual - I also keep my conditioner in my hair then entire time I'm in the shower and I use Suave Humectant, and my hair has never been softer!

Arrowhead is a spring water that also contains minerals and is not recommended for honey lightening. If you are using Arrowhead water, that is likely why your lightening is taking longer that it may otherwise. Minerals deplete a honey lightening recipe peroxide level.

[ktani]

From my signature post This information and that in the posts to follow, are all in the first post of this thread, in different links.

2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1173

[ktani]

Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/ext...qwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight...mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

[ktani]

Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hi...les/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

[ktani]

A basic honey lightening treatment is water and honey. Both are key to a honey lightening treatment being successful. Choosing the right honey and using distilled water are IMO, crucial to the best results, in the least amount of time, and reports, as well as the research, support this.

Honey will be diluted and produce peroxide with any liquid that contains water but the results will all be different. That is what the new recommendations are for, to help clarify that, and get a honey lightening treatment to yield the best results, in the shortest amount of time possible.

[ktani]

The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH 7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1767

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1596

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

[ktani]

People here have reported some of the internal use side effects of coumarins, from the topical use of henna and possibly indigo. I pulled this together from several previous posts of mine and new researched information, to make one complete post.

Coumarin

2008
"According to literature search, the side effects “nausea, vomits, headache and weakness” seem to refer to coumarin overdose"

Coumarin type drugs side effects, oral
Loss of appetite, nausea, diarrhea or blurred vision may occur at first as your body adjusts to the medication. Inform your doctor if you experience: unusual bleeding or bruising, blood in the urine or stools, severe headache. May cause urine to turn orange-red in color. This is not harmful and will disappear when the medication is stopped. .... unlikely event an allergic reaction to this drug, seek medical attention immediately. Symptoms of an allergic reaction include: rash, itching, swelling, dizziness, trouble breathing. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor or pharmacist."
http://www.medicinenet.com/coumarin-...al/article.htm


"Insomnia .... upset stomach, diarrhea, dizziness .... all been reported with taking large amounts of Coumarin."
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drugs/altme...&contentId=434



With coumarin, it is your total intake that needs to be considered. They can damage the liver but the good news is that the effect is reversible.
2007
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/freque...ther_foods.pdf



Cassia cinnamon
"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets in the United States ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... Coumarin .... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamo...mon_and_cassia

How to distinguish between cassia cinnamon, and true cinnamon (which has a neglible coumarin content)
http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm



2007
"Consumers may take in larger amounts of coumarin from cosmetics ....
.... Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake
natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. .... found in woodruff and sweet clover and .... higher levels in cassia cinnamon .... synthetically produced coumarin .... added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment .... has evaluated the analytical results .... to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. .... result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569



2008
"Coumarin ... found in several plants, including beans, lavender, liquorice, strawberries, apricots, cherries, cinnamon, and sweet clover. Coumarin .... responsible for the sweet smell of new mown hay."
http://www.food-info.net/uk/qa/qa-fi61.htm

Fenugreek
"Adverse Reactions
Common: .... flatulence, diarrhea, and other GI symptoms.
Reported: Bleeding, bruising, hypoglycemia. Repeated topical use can cause skin sensitization. Inhalation of the powder can cause asthma and allergic symptoms."
Anticoagulants: Fenugreek may potentiate effects due to coumarin content."
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69218.cfm

2007
Chamomile
".... Chamomile may increase anticoagulant effects and inhibit platelets due to coumarin content"
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69174.cfm

Coumarins can also be found in henna and indigo (a special thank you to ljkforu for alerting me to this last fact). HennaSooq was the first to have the information that henna contains coumarins so upfront on her website, http://www.hennasooq.com/whatishenna.shtml, as far as I know, but at the time, it was not noted or commented on, other than mellie finding and posting that here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...0&postcount=15 and it was not persued then because no one had reported the side effects mentioned yet, from either henna or indigo use.

2007
Indigo (indigo also contains saponins)
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gMwL...esult&resnum=1

2005
Henna
" .... natural constituents of Lawsonia inermis are essential oils, 1,4-naphthoquinone, tannins, gallic acid, flavonoids, lipids, sugars, triacontyl tridecanoate, mannitol, xanthones, coumarins (5-alkyloxy 7-hydroxycoumarin), 2-3% resins, 5-10% tannic ingredients and up to 2% Lawsone (2-hydroxy-1,4-naphthoquinone) ...."
http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/c...sccp_o_034.pdf

[ktani]

Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conve...surements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...ount=856itamin