I really need some advice from herbal washers

**ktani** · December 2nd, 2008, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by mira-chan

I haven't had residue problems fro hibiscus or methi when they were used on their own. I used them as a main washing herb but left them in longer, kind of like CO. I have done them after oiling too though not as heavily and that worked fine.

I haven't had more residue from them with or without oiling.

My hair is dry (any commercial shampoo makes it haystack dry without a lot of conditioner and leave in... and even then it's iffy), methi only washes are just right for me but I like mixing stuff too much to do just those.

That is what I am trying (not well) to say. Plant residue, from my own experience with herbal teas, takes time to accumulate enough to be a problem. But mixing it up as you do, you would not see the same kind of problems that you might if you used the methi/hibiscus washes exclusively.

**ktani** · December 2nd, 2008, 02:18 PM

I knew that I posted this. Soap nuts remove some oils better than others and pre oiling here is done with a number of vegetable oils. So aritha would dissolve hair oil easily IMO, but not the oils used for pre oiling (which is exactly what one would want by using them).

Research on how soap nut saponins dissolve oils.
“…. Solubilisation of two types of crude oils and a vegetable oil was studied …. At lower concentrations of the surfactant .... solubilisation of crude oils in saponin was better than synthetic surfactants …. solubilisation of vegetable oil was better in synthetic surfactants.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18303686

**ktani** · December 2nd, 2008, 02:30 PM

I forgot that I posted this. How much of the natural dye in soap nuts would show up would depend, IMO, on; the dilution, how dark the hair colour, how long it was left on the hair and/or the pre oil used. Not everyone would get staining.

Used in laundrey, there are reports on the net that soap nuts have not gotten whites "white" on their own. They did not stain the clothes but only 2-4 soap nuts were used per load of laundrey.

"soap nut has a lovely light brown natural dye." See "Mordant"
http://www.copperwiki.org/index.php/...ampaign=invite

**ktani** · December 2nd, 2008, 06:01 PM

I have heard that amla, shikakai and aritha, used together, 1/3 each to wash hair, does not darken it. IMO, even though amla also contains a light brown dye, the saponins of the 2 washing plants outweigh the dyes, by their amounts, no doubt their chemistry (as well as the chemistry of the other plant constituents), the dilution, the pre oil used, and the time that the recipe is left on the hair.

**mellie** · December 3rd, 2008, 05:23 AM

There are a lot of factors at play here:

1) the person's hair/scalp - is it naturally oily or dry?

2) when talking about aritha/soapnuts - the species of the soapnut is very important as well as the formulation that you are using as well. Lots of folks here are using aritha powder, which since it is a dried out powder, I can understand would be drying as compared to fresh, juicy soapnut liquid.

Also I've noticed vast differences in the species and quality of soapnuts. The big, juicy plump ones are much, much more cleansing for my oily hair and give me much better results (with no pre-oiling or conditioner needed). The smaller ones leave more natural oils in my hair (which in my case is bad, since my hair is so oily anyway, it ends up looking greasy).

Also the recipe/formulation when using whole soapnuts; some folks just use a few soapnuts soaked in water (this wasn't cleansing enough for my oily hair); I use quite a lot of soapnuts soaked in water with lemon juice added as well. So the recipe ends up being fairly important.

**ktani** · December 3rd, 2008, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by mellie

There are a lot of factors at play here:

1) the person's hair/scalp - is it naturally oily or dry?

2) when talking about aritha/soapnuts - the species of the soapnut is very important as well as the formulation that you are using as well. Lots of folks here are using aritha powder, which since it is a dried out powder, I can understand would be drying as compared to fresh, juicy soapnut liquid.

Also I've noticed vast differences in the species and quality of soapnuts. The big, juicy plump ones are much, much more cleansing for my oily hair and give me much better results (with no pre-oiling or conditioner needed). The smaller ones leave more natural oils in my hair (which in my case is bad, since my hair is so oily anyway, it ends up looking greasy).

Also the recipe/formulation when using whole soapnuts; some folks just use a few soapnuts soaked in water (this wasn't cleansing enough for my oily hair); I use quite a lot of soapnuts soaked in water with lemon juice added as well. So the recipe ends up being fairly important.

Yes, the research does say that in lower concentrations, saponins do not dissolve vegetable oil as well as synthethic detergent. They are referring to sapindus mukorossi not the other species.

Soapnuts are dried, as is the powder. It is the type of oil, that is mentioned, in this case vegetable oil vs crude oil and in your case human scalp oil.

Lemon juice added to your recipe would lower the pH, but you do not use enough lemon juice to significantly alter the recipe in other ways, IMO.

I think that you may be able to just alternate the soap nuts with Dairy Whip, to help your problem with the indigo.

**brok3nwings** · December 3rd, 2008, 06:25 AM

Is it possible that the colour in aritha only stains fabric and not hair??? I´ve tried to search some reports about it on the internet but i cant find it. Ktani they say its light brown but that is really relative...
Shell has blonde hair and she never reported any colour change. Unlike hibiscus for example i put the boiling water over the aritha and the colour that comes out isnt "colour" it looks like dirty water instead. The hibiscus and chamomille does stain a lot. Did you know that i had to use lye (?) to take out the yellow (chamomille) from my bath? The hibiscus did stain my wood spoon so i didnt even try it in my hair (as it was a pink colour not a copper one as i was expecting)...
aritha has never done anything simillar to my hair, bath, or kitchen but if it does stain i wish i knew how and what we need to do with soapnuts to see that happen

**ktani** · December 3rd, 2008, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by brok3nwings

Is it possible that the colour in aritha only stains fabric and not hair??? I´ve tried to search some reports about it on the internet but i cant find it. Ktani they say its light brown but that is really relative...
Shell has blonde hair and she never reported any colour change. Unlike hibiscus for example i put the boiling water over the aritha and the colour that comes out isnt "colour" it looks like dirty water instead. The hibiscus and chamomille does stain a lot. Did you know that i had to use lye (?) to take out the yellow (chamomille) from my bath? The hibiscus did stain my wood spoon so i didnt even try it in my hair (as it was a pink colour not a copper one as i was expecting)...
aritha has never done anything simillar to my hair, bath, or kitchen but if it does stain i wish i knew how and what we need to do with soapnuts to see that happen

It would depend on the amount used, the dilution, the oil used to pre oil etc. Like I said, not everyone will get staining. But it is possible. I know someone to whom it happened. I did not see reports of soap nuts staining clothes but for laundrey, only 2 - 4 soap nuts are used per load. I did see reports that the soap nuts stained the bag that they were in, a light brown.

I had both chamomile and linden tea stain my bathtub but over time and mostly on areas that were more porous (my bathtub is old and the finish worn in some areas, so it is also a porosity issue).