Re: Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ktani
I read the first article, and I was like this :scared:
Puts me in a tough spot, but I won't give up the pool for the hair.
Anyway, I ended up going to the pool. I did the tap water vs. club soda experiment, and the tap water got colored by the henna, just like the club soda. So the bottom line is - no, club soda doesn't make my henna bleed.
So right now, what left is to see is was there significant fading of the color or not. I have to note - I usually get 1 cm (about 0.4") of roots after a month. This month I've got twice as much roots. I was ecstatic at first, because I thought my growth rate doubled this month, but now I think that the chlorine might bleached the 1cm length that had been hennaed only once (last time, when it was the new growth). I wonder what has more lightening ability, chlorine or honey lightening...
/end of update
Re: Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heidi_234
I read the first article, and I was like this :scared:
Puts me in a tough spot, but I won't give up the pool for the hair.
Anyway, I ended up going to the pool. I did the tap water vs. club soda experiment, and the tap water got colored by the henna, just like the club soda. So the bottom line is - no, club soda doesn't make my henna bleed.
So right now, what left is to see is was there significant fading of the color or not. I have to note - I usually get 1 cm (about 0.4") of roots after a month. This month I've got twice as much roots. I was ecstatic at first, because I thought my growth rate doubled this month, but now I think that the chlorine might bleached the 1cm length that had been hennaed only once (last time, when it was the new growth). I wonder what has more lightening ability, chlorine or honey lightening...
/end of update
Thank you for doing the test. It helps to answer that question at least.
There is no simple answer to your question about honey lightening vs pool lightening, IMO. Depending on your honey, water and method, the pool chemicals may be more lightening. It depends on the percentages of the chemicals used in the pool. Some pools may have more of the chemicals used than recommended or necessary.
Re: Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage
Resistant (to conventional hair dye) grey hair
Here are reviews for Clairol Nice n Easy Gray Solution, only they are not all nice and it wasn't that easy for everyone who tried it. This hair colour is specifically aimed at grey coverage. It looks like the professional answers to grey hair that is resistant to conventional hair colour are still to come. I think, that there are easier (and possibly more cost effective), more hair friendly ways to deal with such hair to start with, before trying more aggressive methods. Clarify the hair in advance of chemically colouring it, and do not use conditioner afterward except coconut or coconut and argan oils. Do not use a conventional hair colour preconditioner at the time of colouring. Use more coconut oil, or coconut and argan oils as a pretreatment, and see if all of that, makes a difference. The fact that certain types of hair react differently to conventional hair colour and lightening chemicals, IMO, supports trying a different approach first, before trying the conventional methods suggested.
Re: Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heidi_234
Well, when you bleach hennaed hair, the henna doesn't become loose and wash out. Also other hennaheads did say to that they swim regularly and their color doesn't fade. I'm puzzled.
I'd have to seriously disagree with this. I just recently bleached henna from my hair, and though when I rinsed out the bleach itself there was no "bleed off" of red, the cholesterol treatment afterward, red leeched out like crazy when rinsing.
I am pretty sure bleach leeches out some henna, but because its bleach (or as in pools, chlorine), just like spilling it on black jeans it turns it white.
Re: Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirin
I'd have to seriously disagree with this. I just recently bleached henna from my hair, and though when I rinsed out the bleach itself there was no "bleed off" of red, the cholesterol treatment afterward, red leeched out like crazy when rinsing.
I am pretty sure bleach leeches out some henna, but because its bleach (or as in pools, chlorine), just like spilling it on black jeans it turns it white.
This is very helpful, Kirin, thank you.
Re: Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kirin
I'd have to seriously disagree with this. I just recently bleached henna from my hair, and though when I rinsed out the bleach itself there was no "bleed off" of red, the cholesterol treatment afterward, red leeched out like crazy when rinsing.
I am pretty sure bleach leeches out some henna, but because its bleach (or as in pools, chlorine), just like spilling it on black jeans it turns it white.
We are still quite in the dark when it comes to henna. Through years and decades and whole tradition based on henna, and more accurate personal experiments these days we know somewhat how to make it stain. We know nothing about how to unbind it, so you cannot be 100% sure what happened, and what assisted the bleeding/fading. Why wasn't the henna fading right after the bleaching? Why the cholesterol treatment made it wash out in masses? How it works? What it does? It could be anything. It could be something in the cholesterol treatment reacting with leftovers on the bleach, loosening henna. Could be anything really.
To say that henna bleeds when bleached based on one case, wouldn't be right, as it might be different on somebody else's hair. You said that after bleaching and treating your hair red was washing out. Does that mean that before the cholesterol treatment you hair was still red?
Re: Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage
Interpreting the reports
While damage to hair from bleaching (peroxide and/or bleach) can be minimized, the hair you start with has to be considered and some hair can withstand conventional lightening chemicals more than others.
From 23 reports so far, no apparent damage has been reported with the use of coconut and argan oils, used on hair on heads, and the hair has been reported to be in better condition, than it was when the oils were not used on prior occasions, for conventional colouring or lightening. These reports are aside from shed hairball (test strand) reports, in which hair was pushed with conventional chemicals to the limit and beyond. Any abuse of conventional lightening chemicals can result in hair disasters and is not advised.
No hair damage (again, hair on heads) has been reported elsewhere here on the boards, without the use of any pretreatment, when some people have hi-lighted, used 10 volume peroxide, coloured with conventional products, and used products like Sun-In, on their hair. It comes down to degrees and interpretation of damage and what is visible or felt by people (felt as in literally felt their hair, not as in feelings or emotions). If someone reports no damage as in no; breakage, split ends, gummy hair, brittleness, weak hair, loss of shine etc., I consider that to be no damage too.
Hair can feel better following conventional lightening, with the use of conditioning but no conditioning can repair hair damage. To me, it makes more sense to help prevent hair damage, than to have to just help the hair feel better, once damage has occurred.
What is significant to me, with regard to conventional hair lightening, is this research, and the potential protective effects of flavonoids and phenolic acids on levels that cannot be seen or felt.
“Protection by the Flavonoids Myricetin, Quercetin, and Rutin Against Hydrogen Peroxide-Induced DNA Damage ….
Exposure to 50 μM H2O2 for 30 minutes .... 37°C resulted in significant DNA damage .... preincubation with the flavonoids before H2O2 exposure significantly .... protected .... cells against H2O2-induced DNA damage"
"In the Ames test, gallic acid esters showed protective effects against H2O2-induced cytotoxicity ….
…. similarity of the protective effects of gallic acid esters on the H2O2-induced damages to both bacterial and mammalian cells.”
Gallic acid, a phenolic acid, is found in coconut oil.
And this research, by P&G, on the chelation of copper and the fact that constituents in both coconut and especially argan oil, chelate copper. Coconut oil constituents also chelate free iron, which generates oxygen free radicals, during a hydrogen peroxide reaction with cells.
".... hair color scientists discovered a way to reduce damage from the HO* radical, blocking its formation with the use of chelants—molecules that can coordinate metals through multiple binding sites. They added EDDS (ethylenediaminedisuccinic acid), a chelant which is highly selective to copper, to home hair coloring kits. During the coloring process, EDDS binds to the copper, preventing access to the copper by hydrogen peroxide .... results in better color formation and less damage. .... preference of the EDDS for copper over calcium makes it superior to traditional chelants, such as EDTA or DTPA, and more efficient at preventing fiber damage. 5-cycle repeat test showed that EDDS prevents more than 95 percent of radical damage. .... By minimizing free radical damage, advances such as EDDS help hair remain resilient and retain a healthy, lustrous look. ...."
Re: Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage
Method of application for coconut and argan oils used as a pretreatment before conventional hair colouring or lightening
Prior to the pretreatment, the hair should not be conditioned with conventional conditioners, other oils, butters (jojoba oil and shea butter were reported to interfere with colour and lightening results), or have coatings, build-up, or residue on it. The idea is to have the preoiling absorb into the hair as much as possible.
A light oiling with coconut oil or coconut and argan oils, can be applied to freshly washed hair, to condition it, and more applied at least 1 hour in advance of when one is ready to colour or lighten. The full preoiling can be applied from the roots to the tips of the hair, it has been reported, without concern of it interfering with dye uptake, even on grey hair. Coconut oil has been reported to help conventional hair colour cover grey hair better, than not using it.
The hair colour/peroxide/bleach is applied directly over the preoil(s). The preoilng replaces any preconditioner, that comes with at home conventional hair colour and has been reported to be more effective, for both conditioning and colour results.
Letting the oil(s) sit on the hair for some time in advance of the colouring or lightening process is important, to saturate the hair and let the oil(s) be absorbed. 1 hour is the minimum time, up to overnight, (which IMO, is not necessary).
Heavier oilings have not been reported to interfere with conventional hair colour dye uptake or conventional lightening, as long as either coconut oil or coconut and argan oils are used. Other oils, or butters, can cause problems in both areas (they can leave a coating on the hair).
A heavy coconut oiling, has been reported to eliminate after conventional hair colouring dryness of the hair, while still not interfering with dye uptake.
Most importantly, both coconut and coconut and argan oils, used as a pretreatment, have been reported to help prevent hair damage. No damage has been reported after conventionl hair colouring or lightening, when these oils have been used. Coconut oil used as a pretreatment, has been reported to help protect already damaged hair, from any further damage, by conventional hair colouring. The purpose of using these oils, is to chelate the free iron and copper, that cause free radical damage during these processes. Conditioning benefits are a bonus. Both of these oils can deliver that too and have been reported to do so, without any other added oil, being necessary.
Re: Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage
Method of application details for coconut and argan oils (TAM)
Timing
The method of application post timing of at least an hour, is a general recommendation, based on reports of 10 and 15 minutes, resulting in after pretreatment and conventional hair colouring/lightening dryness. There was still no hair damage reported. Timing can vary with individual choice and what process is being done to the hair. The oil(s) need time to saturate the hair and be absorbed as much as possible. In the research on cells, the cells were preincubated with flavonoids for 24 hours, before being subjected to hydrogen peroxide. I do not think that 24 hours or overnight is necessary for the pretreatment but either is an option. So is less time, as in less than 1 hour.
Access to the hair
Any coating on the hair can negatively affect conventional hair colour and lightening results and has been reported to do so. The pretreatment oil(s) should help with porosity issues and uneven colouring results and both dye uptake and colour results have been reported to be excellent, when these oils have been used.
Amount of oils used
Initially there were concerns, that a heavy pretreatment oiling, would interfere with conventional hair colouring and lightening results. The opposite has been reported to be the case. More of the oil(s), has been reported to resolve after process dryness issues, and both colour and lightening results have been reported to be excellent, when coconut oil/coconut oil & argan oil have been used.
The method of application post is designed to help the pretreatment yield optimal results, and is based on the reports to date, and research.
Re: Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage
Coconut and argan oils, club soda, swimming and hair
My niece does a lot of swimming in pools as a lifeguard, both in swim classes and assisting swimmers. Swimming pool chemicals (chlorine) bleach hair, "The calcium hypochlorite or sodium dichloroisocyanurate used to disinfect swimming pools also bleaches hair ...." Online, applying product to hair before swimming is advised to help reduce chlorine and salt water damage to hair.
Finoriel made a valid argument againt that IMO, and I have to agree, that if the hair gets wet with any unabsorbed oil or product on it, a less than desireable swimming pool water is going to be the result.
Alternatives to the pre-treatment of hair with leave-in products, before swimming.
1. A proper swim cap, the right size, properly worn. This can be tricky because of sizes and long hair but it can be done and the hair kept dry.
2. Rinsing hair immediately after swimming, to neutralize chlorine and salt water. This one is the trickiest and the solution I found (See #'s 4 & 5), is the easiest of all the ideas I have seen.
While asorbic acid can neutralize chlorine, there is some question about the "cure" being worse than the problem. Chlorinated swimming pool water usually contains both copper and iron.
"… it appears both hydrogen peroxide and ascorbic acid are capable of forming .... free radicals in the presence of copper salts."
"Vitamin C may also act as a pro-oxidant in the presence of transitional metal ions, such as iron."
"We have previously shown that Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) can trigger hydroxyl radical formation in copper contaminated household drinking water."
3. Where does that leave the problem? Fresh water to rinse the hair or a citric acid rinse. However, I am not happy with these as answers either.
".... never use vinegar or any other acid in an attempt to neutralize .... chlorine bleach. It will destroy the hypochlorite that is the active ingredient of chlorine bleach, but only by turning it into much more caustic and dangerous chemicals, including .... chlorine gas. .... amount of chlorine gas produced by a mild acid such as vinegar is small, but it won't do your fabric any good, and stronger acids can produce lethal amounts."
4. What did I find?
The safest, cheapest, easiest thing to buy and use to rinse the hair with just after swimming in a pool or salt water, that requires no mixing, guessing, or experimenting with for the best dilution, and is available pretty much everywhere, club soda.
“Club Soda ….distinguished from seltzer, sparkling water, or carbonated water by the addition of a small amount of mineral salt, such as sodium citrate, sodium bicarbonate, disodium phosphate, or similar.”
".... if you don't want to wear a cap, once you get out of the pool, rinse your hair with club soda."
"This hair care tip is from Garland Drake International, a company that manufactures hair extensions supplies .... They say that if you rinse your hair in club soda you will neutralize .... effects of chlorine and salt water on your hair."
See "Sun Savers" (click to enlarge text)
5. I suggest using club soda to rinse the hair, apply coconut and argan oils as a chelator/conditioning treatment for an hour or so, and then wash and condition the hair afterward.
Damage to the hair is going to be done in the pool or salt water, if the hair gets wet. Pre-treated hair can only stand up to so much salt water or chlorine. However, with the right after swim rinse and chelating out the mineral salts, further damage to the hair from swimming in chlorine pools or salt water, can be prevented.
This was not mentioned anywhere online but it is logical to me that if club soda removes chorine from hair, rubbing some on the skin after swimming, should remove the chorine smell that showering alone, may not.
Some thoughts in conclusion
Oils do not really seal the hair. They are not the best things to have on your hair for pool swimming (contamination of pool water), or the ocean in any significant amounts.
An alternative may be soaking your hair with club soda under a swim cap to help neutralize sea water minerals and chlorine and rinsing the hair with it afterward.
The amount of damage minimizing of coconut oil or coconut and argan oils used as a pretreatment before swimming or club soda, would depend on how wet the hair would get and for how long the hair would be exposed to both sea water and chlorine. Both the club soda and coconut or coconut and argan oils can be used as follow-up treatments. The club soda is a rinse (you can leave it on the hair for a few minutes) and the oils for about an hour or less before rinsing/washing and conditioning.
Effect of chorine on hair
How Ultraswim removes chlorine from hair
"Salt is hygroscopic .... it absorbs water from the air. This water dissolves the salt .... the resulting salt water combines with the remaining salt, cementing the grains together into a solid mass."
".... unrefined sea salt contains many minerals that regular iodized table salt does not contain, such as magnesium, sulfate, calcium, and potassium."
