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Bunnysaur
August 14th, 2012, 05:50 PM
As some of you know, I've figured out that the culprit of my major shedding is conditioner. This apparently includes any conditioner, whether it be cone free or not, whether I get it on my scalp or not. :justy:
Since I can't use conditioner, I leave the shower with my hair mostly detangled, but still kind of a mess. I have to wait until it's completely air dried before detangling it and oiling it a little. This is majorly frustrating, because my hair takes upwards of an hour and a half to air dry to a point where I can detangle without pulling out any extra hairs.
ACV doesn't work very well for me as a conditioner. I don't know what it is, but it just doesn't seem to condition very well for me. My deep conditioning treatment doesn't make me shed, but it's too expensive to use with every wash.
I've been doing a deep oiling before every wash, but that's not very convenient either, although I wouldn't be adverse to doing it daily if I must.

What other conditioner alternatives are there? Every time I searched, I just got ACV, but that doesn't work. I can't stretch washes more than every other day, and even that doesn't make a noticeable difference.
Would squeezing the excess water out of my hair, slathering my hands in oil, and then detangling with my fingers be a viable alternative?

misspurdy06
August 14th, 2012, 05:59 PM
If you use shampoo..Stop.

Let your natural oils be your conditioner.

Check out the water only threads.

I had a similar problem because I am so sensitive to chemicals. So I went WO and my hair has never been thicker and longer.

There is an awkward 6 months but you would be undoing years of sulfates and detergents.

Tisiloves
August 14th, 2012, 06:00 PM
Bummer :grouphug:

I think the oily hands fingercombing plan might be an idea, it's alost what I did/do when cone free (I oil my TT and run it through).

Bunnysaur
August 14th, 2012, 06:23 PM
If you use shampoo..Stop.

Let your natural oils be your conditioner.

Check out the water only threads.

I had a similar problem because I am so sensitive to chemicals. So I went WO and my hair has never been thicker and longer.

There is an awkward 6 months but you would be undoing years of sulfates and detergents.

I use shampoo bars. I don't know if I could go WO, I've thought about it, But I'm just not sure yet.


Bummer :grouphug:

I think the oily hands fingercombing plan might be an idea, it's alost what I did/do when cone free (I oil my TT and run it through).

I thought I had it under control! *wails* I'm going to start doing that tomorrow, probably. Fingers crossed that it works!

OrganicJewel
August 14th, 2012, 06:33 PM
Oh, that's a shame, Bunnysaur. I can't imagine how hard to deal with my hair would be if I couldn't use conditioner.

What about catnip rinses?

It's sort of time consuming in that you need to remember to steep your tea, but the couple of times I've used it, it made my hair really soft.

ratgirldjh
August 14th, 2012, 06:36 PM
Have you tried a few drops of baby oil?

lilliemer
August 14th, 2012, 06:41 PM
Have you tried shea butter or shea butter containing products? I have been using it, in the form of nightblooming panacea, for the last couple weeks in place of conditioner and a leave in for regular washing. I still use conditioner for deep treatments though. So far I am very happy with the results. (although I seem to have a curse, every time I post about something it stops working as well) The panacea smoothes out the hair nicely, and I can detangle wet with it in. The person who makes it is a member here I believe. She has an etsy shop and makes several versions with different herbs plus or minus protein.

I have also recently switched to a sulfate free coconut oil based shampoo which seems to play really well with the panacea. This combination might be a little heavy for some though.

Bunnysaur
August 14th, 2012, 06:42 PM
Oh, that's a shame, Bunnysaur. I can't imagine how hard to deal with my hair would be if I couldn't use conditioner.

What about catnip rinses?

It's sort of time consuming in that you need to remember to steep your tea, but the couple of times I've used it, it made my hair really soft.

I'll look into catnip rinses, I have a super hard time remembering to bring things with me to the shower or to prepare things for my shower, but it's worth a shot!


Have you tried a few drops of baby oil?

I have not. Would that be applied when my hair is still a soaking wet tangly rats nest (lol) or would I have to wait until it's just damp?

Bunnysaur
August 14th, 2012, 06:43 PM
Have you tried shea butter or shea butter containing products? I have been using it, in the form of nightblooming panacea, for the last couple weeks in place of conditioner and a leave in for regular washing. I still use conditioner for deep treatments though. So far I am very happy with the results. (although I seem to have a curse, every time I post about something it stops working as well) The panacea smoothes out the hair nicely, and I can detangle wet with it in. The person who makes it is a member here I believe. She has an etsy shop and makes several versions with different herbs plus or minus protein.

I have also recently switched to a sulfate free coconut oil based shampoo which seems to play really well with the panacea. This combination might be a little heavy for some though.

I've wanted to try that FOREVER but it's just so expensive! :(

Lissandria
August 14th, 2012, 07:00 PM
Another alternative to ACV is to use WV. I find personally that white vinegar really gives my hair that conditioner smooth feeling.

If I cannot use conditioner I will slather a generous amount of coconut oil or nightblooming panacea on my hair, followed by a drop or two of mineral oil which seals the moisture in. My hair feels as good as when I have used conditioner. And yes, you can do this on wet hair, it doesn't have to be damp. We curlies do this on wet hair all the time ;)

Good luck and I hope that you find something that works for you. There is alot of good advice here so far! :)

battles
August 14th, 2012, 07:02 PM
I use plain white vinegar, also. Lemon juice or citric acid are options as well.

Wildcat Diva
August 14th, 2012, 07:04 PM
Brighteyes has some Panacea on sale on swap right now. I swear by it for my defrizzer. I have used mineral oil on damp hair successfully too, and that's cheaper.

For what it's worth I don't detangle until it's dry. For faster drying, have you tried plopping for a few minutes to speed up the process? I have done it, but get ready for curls.

I also use the catnip soaks for conditioner. It's worth a shot! Head on down to the pet store for some, and then read the article on it in the articles section.

Bunnysaur
August 14th, 2012, 07:10 PM
I need to go to the store later, so I'll pick up some white vinegar. I remember now that I've tried it before, and I liked the result better than ACV. Thanks for the reminder!

I can't spend any money at all until the 31st. Brighteyes has already been kind enough to reserve a Grah-Toe for me until then :)

lol, pet store. The nearest one is an hour away... Although, I do have to go into town tonight anyway to pick up DF... I could leave like, now... You are such an enabler!

Wildcat Diva
August 14th, 2012, 07:14 PM
You have me pegged right, ma'am!

battles
August 14th, 2012, 07:16 PM
I need to go to the store later, so I'll pick up some white vinegar. I remember now that I've tried it before, and I liked the result better than ACV. Thanks for the reminder!


If it doesn't work well for your hair, use it on french fries with salt. :agree:

Lissandria
August 14th, 2012, 07:20 PM
If it doesn't work well for your hair, use it on french fries with salt. :agree:

Mmmm.. YUM! I love chips with vinegar! :yumm:

Crazycatlady
August 14th, 2012, 07:21 PM
What about mixing a little coconut oil with your shampoo? I've tried this with Herbal Essence Drama Clean and about a teaspoon of coconut oil...just mixed them together in my palm and then slathered them on my wet hair, massaged in, then rinsed well. No conditioner afterwards and my hair felt great. There's lots of information about "oil shampoo" on here.

Wildcat Diva
August 14th, 2012, 07:22 PM
All this food talk reminds me to go eat dinner and get off LHC!

jennyjukes
August 14th, 2012, 07:34 PM
i don't use conditioner after every wash so when i don't i use Aloe Vera Gel mixed with coconut oil to wet/very damp hair, have you tried that? either alone or with other oils :)

jextxadore
August 14th, 2012, 08:41 PM
I do black tea rinses every time I wash (2 black tea bags, 2 Earl Grey — Earl Grey for the flavour and the black tea to make the tea stronger). Not sure how effective it would be combined with shampoo but it works really well with baking soda. I use 1 tea bag per cup of very hot water and steep until the bags are "exhausted"; by the time I get to using it it's cooled to a comfortable temperature.

If you can't stretch washes more than every other day, I can think of 2 explanations:
1. It's just how you are (lifestyle, body)
2. Your shampoo's stripping so much sebum off your hair that you end up over-producing and the conditioner's just making it worse. I'm not sure how related this might be to shedding though.

patienceneeded
August 14th, 2012, 09:46 PM
Bunnysaur, I have the same issues with my hair! Any kind of conditioner has started causing massive shedding issues, as well as small pimple-like sores on my neck hairline. When I don't use conditioner (and also diluted my shampoo heavily/WO wash) all the problems go away. So, I have started WO washing 2-3 days a week and washing with heavily diluted shampoo once a week. My goal is eventually transition all the way to WO. It's been a very positive change. I do have tangle-issues so what I do is apply some coconut oil before washing to the ends ONLY, like the last 2-3 inches of my hair. It's been working really well to keep my hair soft and tangle-free. Don't overdo the oil though! Very lightly works.

Bunnysaur
August 15th, 2012, 01:22 PM
You have me pegged right, ma'am!

Haha. Sadly I didn't make it to the pet store, they would have closed before I got there :(

Battles, that sounds delicious! Now to find some potatoes to make fries with...


I do black tea rinses every time I wash (2 black tea bags, 2 Earl Grey — Earl Grey for the flavour and the black tea to make the tea stronger). Not sure how effective it would be combined with shampoo but it works really well with baking soda. I use 1 tea bag per cup of very hot water and steep until the bags are "exhausted"; by the time I get to using it it's cooled to a comfortable temperature.

If you can't stretch washes more than every other day, I can think of 2 explanations:
1. It's just how you are (lifestyle, body)
2. Your shampoo's stripping so much sebum off your hair that you end up over-producing and the conditioner's just making it worse. I'm not sure how related this might be to shedding though.

I'm just curious, if you're rinsing your hair with this mixture, why do you add Earl Grey for the flavour?!
I think it's just how I am. My shampoo bars are fairly gentle, and there's no way they're stripping the oils. My hair hasn't felt dry at all since using them.


Bunnysaur, I have the same issues with my hair! Any kind of conditioner has started causing massive shedding issues, as well as small pimple-like sores on my neck hairline. When I don't use conditioner (and also diluted my shampoo heavily/WO wash) all the problems go away. So, I have started WO washing 2-3 days a week and washing with heavily diluted shampoo once a week. My goal is eventually transition all the way to WO. It's been a very positive change. I do have tangle-issues so what I do is apply some coconut oil before washing to the ends ONLY, like the last 2-3 inches of my hair. It's been working really well to keep my hair soft and tangle-free. Don't overdo the oil though! Very lightly works.

I'd like to try WO, but I just don't know if it would be very feasible for me. I live in a very hot area, and that combined with going to the gym is just... No. I need something a littler stronger than WO :(


I'm switching to a more moisturizing shampoo bar tonight, hopefully that'll make at least some difference.

einna
August 15th, 2012, 03:11 PM
How about mixing some of your DT with distilled water, and maybe some oils? Then use it as a leave in after your shower. Then it would last you much longer, and help you detangle.

lilliemer
August 15th, 2012, 07:15 PM
I've wanted to try that FOREVER but it's just so expensive! :(
I wonder if you could just try plain shea butter? I believe that is the main ingredient in panacea. Not sure how much that costs though, I am just guessing that it might be cheaper as it is a raw ingredient. She also sells small sample sizes for like $4 so next time you decide to spend on hair products you can try a bit without breaking the bank hopefully. Sorry if i am being an enabler.

Bunnysaur
August 15th, 2012, 10:33 PM
How about mixing some of your DT with distilled water, and maybe some oils? Then use it as a leave in after your shower. Then it would last you much longer, and help you detangle.

That's a really good idea!


I wonder if you could just try plain shea butter? I believe that is the main ingredient in panacea. Not sure how much that costs though, I am just guessing that it might be cheaper as it is a raw ingredient. She also sells small sample sizes for like $4 so next time you decide to spend on hair products you can try a bit without breaking the bank hopefully. Sorry if i am being an enabler.

I have some, but it's not great for detangling I've noticed. :(

Wildcat Diva
August 15th, 2012, 10:38 PM
You could also try citric acid rinses to see if that makes any difference. I am sorry that you are having trouble. It sounds like the catnip thing is worth your try.

I wonder if a little preshampoo oiling your ends with coconut oil would make any difference. The oil shampoo idea by another poster was interesting, but I am using shampoo bars like you, and so I understand that you couldn't exactly add oil to your shampoo then, could you?

Kyla
August 15th, 2012, 10:43 PM
/snip/


I'm just curious, if you're rinsing your hair with this mixture, why do you add Earl Grey for the flavour?!

/snip/



I can't speak for jextxadore, but I usually sneak a few gulps sips when doing a tea rinse. But then, I've also brought tea in the shower solely to drink...Don't judge.

Bunnysaur
August 15th, 2012, 10:45 PM
I can't speak for jextxadore, but I usually sneak a few gulps sips when doing a tea rinse. But then, I've also brought tea in the shower solely to drink...Don't judge.

Hahaha. That actually sounds like something I would do :p Makes sense!

MissCoco
August 16th, 2012, 03:41 AM
Hi, I don't use conditioners either (they make my hair lank, greasy, and shed a lot as well), but what works is to heavily oil and soak with coconut milk a few days before wash day, leave the oils/milk in for that time and practice WO, and then use a herbal paste/rinse on wash day (with or without shampoo). Hibiscus powder is especially conditioning, and amla is pretty good. To clean out the herbs well, I finish with a cold or cool ACV rinse, but I'm sure WV could work just as well.

Hope you find the right alternative soon! :)

Bunnysaur
August 16th, 2012, 10:32 AM
Hi, I don't use conditioners either (they make my hair lank, greasy, and shed a lot as well), but what works is to heavily oil and soak with coconut milk a few days before wash day, leave the oils/milk in for that time and practice WO, and then use a herbal paste/rinse on wash day (with or without shampoo). Hibiscus powder is especially conditioning, and amla is pretty good. To clean out the herbs well, I finish with a cold or cool ACV rinse, but I'm sure WV could work just as well.

Hope you find the right alternative soon! :)

How do you think this would work if I can't stretch washes?


Might my hair be so tangly and need conditioner so badly in the shower because it needs protein?

Wildcat Diva
August 16th, 2012, 10:57 AM
I am not sure about that. When was the last time you clarified and then a deep moisture treatment? I do an SMT..... But you can't use conditioner.

~BoHemiAngel~
August 16th, 2012, 11:11 AM
Hi, I don't use conditioners either (they make my hair lank, greasy, and shed a lot as well), but what works is to heavily oil and soak with coconut milk a few days before wash day, leave the oils/milk in for that time and practice WO, and then use a herbal paste/rinse on wash day (with or without shampoo). Hibiscus powder is especially conditioning, and amla is pretty good. To clean out the herbs well, I finish with a cold or cool ACV rinse, but I'm sure WV could work just as well.

Hope you find the right alternative soon! :)

I was going to suggest Indian (or Ayurvedic) herbs, as well. I would also add to try a conditioning paste of "methi" or fenugreek seed powder. It adds a feeling of 'slip' to the hair, which would make detangling easier.

Bunnysaur
August 16th, 2012, 12:26 PM
I am not sure about that. When was the last time you clarified and then a deep moisture treatment? I do an SMT..... But you can't use conditioner.

I actually just clarified this morning, but didn't have time for a DT. I'm planning to later, though.


I was going to suggest Indian (or Ayurvedic) herbs, as well. I would also add to try a conditioning paste of "methi" or fenugreek seed powder. It adds a feeling of 'slip' to the hair, which would make detangling easier.

I'm planning to get this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001T7APMG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_7?ie=UTF8&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER) pretty soon. I think I'd either use it in a mask or infuse it into coconut oil, which I would then use as a pre-wash.
Getting fenugreek on its own and making a conditioning paste also sounds like it might help.


I need to update my statement about not being able to use it on the ends of my hair even. I can use it on the very very tippy ends, but my hair is at a length where I can hardly do that without getting it on my scalp, where most of the tanglies reside.

CurlyMopTop
August 17th, 2012, 05:55 AM
How do you think this would work if I can't stretch washes?


Might my hair be so tangly and need conditioner so badly in the shower because it needs protein?

In my experience yes. That's one of the signs for me to do a zap of protein in the shower on my next wash. My hair becomes over conditioned quite easily so I have to be careful with conditioners, but my hair also does not like oils, acv rinses or any other kind of citric rinses. Extra shedding, tangling, limp hair when dry, and stretchy hair in the shower tell me that my hair needs a shot of protein. I use Ion's reconstructor treatment or their effective hair care treatment. I just swap out my conditioner for the protein treatment that day. Sometimes I'll condition the ends after because I'm afraid that they'll get dry, but that hasn't happened yet.

Good Luck trying to figure it out. I hope you get it resolved soon, I know it can be frustrating. :D

Theobroma
August 17th, 2012, 07:48 AM
I agree that shea butter isn't the best thing for detangling, but have you tried extra virgin olive oil?

I'm slightly phobic about conditioners at the moment after giving up CO on account of increasingly heavy shedding. Currently I wash with African Black Soap, follow up with a white vinegar rinse, and finally distribute a few drops of EVOO all over my length. It's the best detangling aid I've ever tried, and this routine makes my hair just as soft as CO washing used to.

PetuniaBlossom
August 17th, 2012, 07:56 AM
I usually add a few drops of lavender EO to my white vinegar rinse, then while hair is still wet, smooth a few drops of baby/mineral oil over the last few inches. This really helps with detangling and seems to have the same overall effect as using a conditioner.

florenonite
August 17th, 2012, 09:33 AM
I've read about people using yoghurt in place of conditioner in things like SMTs and henna glosses. Maybe you could give that a shot?

MissCoco
August 19th, 2012, 01:33 PM
How do you think this would work if I can't stretch washes?


Might my hair be so tangly and need conditioner so badly in the shower because it needs protein?

I think it would be fine even if you wash your hair regularly. I don't always wash once per week, sometimes it's even thrice per week, and my hair is surviving so far! :p I think ACV rinses and heavy oilings/shea butter/coconut milk soaks really help to
detangle/smooth the hair.

As for protein, you could always try masks with yoghurt, eggs, or mayonnaise. It smells, but you can always use just a bit of nice smelling shampoo when you wash the mask off, and I think the ACV rinse can lessen the smell as well (I haven't done a protein mask in well over two years, so I'm not quite sure on this point).

Anyway, good luck and sorry the slow reply! :o


I was going to suggest Indian (or Ayurvedic) herbs, as well. I would also add to try a conditioning paste of "methi" or fenugreek seed powder. It adds a feeling of 'slip' to the hair, which would make detangling easier.

Oh yes, methi/fenugreek is definitely useful for coating the hair and making it more slippery. There are some south Indian herbal powder mixes that include it, so that's definitely worth checking out.

Bunnysaur
August 19th, 2012, 03:21 PM
Theobroma, I've tried that before, and most of the time the amount of oil that I have to use to get my hair satisfactorily detangled makes it so that I might as well not have just washed it. :(

After reading all the replies to this thread, I think I'm definitely going to do some sort of protein treatment, and then start using Indian herbs. I can get a 3.5oz packet that has a mix of amla, bhrami, bhringraj, fenugreek, and a few others for cheap off amazon, and I'm going to infuse those into coconut oil and either use that as a pre oil or mix some into my shampoo.
I'm going to give up the shampoo bars (I'm selling a bunch on the swap board!) and go back to regular shampoo, which isn't what i was hoping to do, but even after using regular shampoo last night, my hair feels... great.

I bought a cheap bottle of V05 shampoo with silk protein, and even after one use my hair feel much better, and didn't tangle as much as it usually does in the shower. :D When I have a little extra money, I'll probably get some of Toadstool's S&C, the ingredients don't seem like they would aggravate my shedding.

Thanks everyone for the advice!