Moisture = looser curls? (pics)

[DarkCurls]

Hi!

I have a question. :D
I've been printing out photos to make a scrapbook for the past year or two years, and naturally I spend a lot of time looking at my hair (...). I noticed that my hair is getting gradually less curly and more wavy. I used to have frizzy but tight spirally curls that I could literally push a finger into, around 3a/b I'd say (correct me if I'm wrong). Like here (Christmas 2011):
http://i47.tinypic.com/2a8rx3p.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/iedkqw.jpg
Back then I was using sulfates and no conditioner and had been for years. When I found this site, I went WO for a few weeks (while I waited to have the time to buy a bottle of conditoner), then started CO-ing in May or June.
I love the way my hair feels soft now and has practically no frizz, but my curls are looser and I almost never get spirals now. :confused: It's not heavy, it's very light, and I really don't think I have build-up because I haven't been CO-ing for long.
I've down-typed my hair twice since joining, and I'm not sure I'm right -- I clung on to 2c/3a because I still wanted to call myself a curly, and I don't think I'm a wavy at all, but I miss the spirals. That is definitely not what I was going for. I loved my curls, and this feels like a drastic change. I didn't notice it at first because I've been wearing my hair up for a month, but yesterday I let it air-dry completely before putting it up and I was shocked.
Here are a few pics taken over the weeks.
http://i46.tinypic.com/win3nr.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/2eb8vnl.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/343gol5.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/j0y3o5.jpg

I don't think my hair is over-moisturized, but I guess it's a possiiblity since back when I had curlier hair it hardly ever got any moisture! So I'm going to try a protein treatment this week (I did one last month, I think). I was wondering whether any curlies/wavies out there have experienced curl-loosening with CO/adding more moisture to their routine? Because to be honest, I was hoping my curls would become bouncier, since curlies are supposed to need moisture. :p I love the way CO makes my hair feel, but if there's one thing that could make me go back to sulfates, it's this. :( I guess dry hair was the way to go. I think I'm going to shampoo later in the week... it's been weeks since I last used shampoo.
Thoughts?

[goldloli]

I'd def say you're 3a/b now. I've been experiencing the same thing, I'm 2b/c 3/a mix hair and my hair is uber moistured but the curls are mostly just 2bs now. In my case it's using heavy conditioning stuff like really rich masques which i think weighs it down, but it's not flat or anything, just avoids the need for styling cremes and frizz treatment. Also I don't plop and I brush my curls looser after I shower, so I probs break up my curl pattern religiously.

Oh and other factors that may ring true, I have really long grown out layers that loosen the curl and I had a shed.

[DarkCurls]

Thank you.
I have layers too, actually, but I've had them for years so I'm pretty sure it's not that. The shortest layers curl up the most, anyway (obviously). The moisture + wearing hear up is really the only thing that has changed. I don't plop either, but then I never did. ^^ I've tried it four times and it's never done anything for me, so I gave up.

The annoying thing is that the first two pictures were taken at a time where I wore my hair down every single day (literally), never used conditioner, watched it four times a week with sulfate shampoo, and ripped a brush with those terribly plastic ball points through it when it was wet. And I still like the way it looked more. :D

[Kiwiwi]

I'd say you are a 3a/3b now. Your curls are beautiful!!

I do suggest reading this article:
http://pittsburghcurly.wordpress.com/tag/moistureprotein-balance/

It shows very nicely how the different curls look (over protein, good balance, over moisture). You might indeed need a good protein treatment.
First clarify, though. Then a protein treatment. And finish with a moisture treatment.

Good luck!

[DarkCurls]

Thanks for the link Kiwiwi! I think it's going to be helpful.
Eck. Clarifying. I think I'll just use regular shampoo. :p I still have to empty that bottle.
(You have gorgeous hair by the way.)

I didn't think I was anywhere near 3b anymore, though. :confused:

[CurlyMopTop]

I'd definitely say you're still 3a/3b. Remember that it's about the diameter of the curl, not how loose or tight they are. ;D I've found that I can't strictly CO. I get build-up way to quickly, so I use a non-sulfate shampoo still once or twice a week and CO when I wash in between. I've lost a lot of my curl to Henna now, but my hair still has the same requirements for care that it did before I started Henna. Your hair is gorgeous by the way! :D

[DarkCurls]

I've heard about using the diameter of the curl to type, but... I hardly feel like I have curls anymore. How can you have a diameter when you don't have a circle? :p (Or a cylinder, as I used to.) I've also seen many hairtyping guides in which it was said "3a's typically loose so many inches between stretched and curly" and I hardly loose any length at all now.

Mm... I only wash my hair once or twice a week, so... I don't know... Maybe I will go back to shampoo.

[Kiwiwi]

Thanks for the link Kiwiwi! I think it's going to be helpful.
Eck. Clarifying. I think I'll just use regular shampoo. :p I still have to empty that bottle.
(You have gorgeous hair by the way.)

I didn't think I was anywhere near 3b anymore, though. :confused:

You're welcome!
Do you mean a sulfate shampoo with regular shampoo? Cos I use that too for clarifying. Just a harsh, regular shampoo. But clarifying is really good for ones hair every once in while! I know it's scary but hair needs it when it needs it :)

Thank you for the compliment! :)

I do think you have some 3b going on. It's indeed not about how loose or tight your curls are. I see some 3b's on girls that seem to look more curly than mine but it's indeed all 3b.

Just figure out what works for you. You might want to use shampoo once every 2 weeks and the washes in between just CO. Or use less conditioner. Or a less heavy conditioner. Or maybe your hair does like a bit more protein every once in a while. It's all trail and error and grow ^_^

[DarkCurls]

Yeah, I guess! :D And yes I do mean sulfate shampoo -- the one I was using before I went CO. Ah well. I just washed yesterday so it'll be a couple more days before my next wash, but I'll be sure to shampoo and protein and I guess I'll see.

[Phalaenopsis]

You're so not a 2c, definitely supercurly ^^
Your curls have improved so much! So pretty! :D

[DarkCurls]

Well at least someone thinks so, Phalaenopsis. :p Actually, my mother says the same thing. I guess I'm the only one not happy about it.

Thanks everyone.

[Idjit]

Do you manipulate your hair more than you used to? Like add gel, or brush or anything else while it's drying that could be separating the curls? Your curls look more defined and separated than they used to.
To me your old pictures just look like your curls are stuck together in a few clumps and that's why they look so cylinder-y.

But I do think your hair looks very pretty now!

[afu]

I have actually found that since being CO for about 5 months my hair is getting much tighter curls, moisture definitly gives my hair alot more spring! I thought I was just a wavy when I used shampoo, now I'm mostly spirals with some S waves.

Like Idjit says, have you changed your hair manipulation at all? Or maybe the conditioner/leave in you are using is just too heavy?

[DarkCurls]

I don't. I finger-comb while in the shower on conditioned hair and don't touch my hair at all after that -- no scrunching, no brushing (definitely not), no product. I don't use leave-in, either. I add mineral oil to the ends to soften them, but that's it. And thanks for the compliment idjit. :)

afu, I thought I would get "springier" hair, too. That's part of the reason why I tried CO. :p

[bunzfan]

I noticed the same waves are looser with co washing, your before curls are gorgeous :thud: your is lovely now but i love the really tight curls.

[Zesty]

I don't think your hair looks less curly, just more separated perhaps (so to my eye it's forming more curls instead of just a few "cylinders"), and definitely healthier. Maybe it'll just take you some time to get used to the new look?

[DarkCurls]

I suppose that could be it, Zesty. ^^ I'm not happy about it, though. I think it looks weird now. Maybe it is a matter of time.

Thanks for the info, bunzfan. :) I like the before curls better, too... Oh, well. :p I'll see if there's any way I can go back to that, and if not, well, I'll live.

[KwaveT]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned it yet. Is your conditioner cone free. I have wavy hair and not curly. I noticed since I start using conditioner my 2a has turned into 2b and 2c. I am gaining spirals into my hair where I didn't use to have them. For my conditioner has made my hair more curly. From what understand from others on her is that cones take the curl out of your hair. If your conditioner has cones then try a cone free one. Cones help with slip and detangling but they also create buildup. That is tradeoff. I have never used cones and have never started. I notice that when I just shampoo my hair it looses all its spirals and waves even loosen.

[DarkCurls]

I'm pretty sure cones don't kill curls. Cones aren't the evil of all evils. :p But either way, I'm cone free. In fact, back when I had the spirally curls, I was using shampoo and cones. Now I'm just using cone-free conditioner.
Just goes to show every head of hair reacts differently to the same things. :(

[goldloli]

I'd say you are a 3a/3b now. Your curls are beautiful!!

I do suggest reading this article:
http://pittsburghcurly.wordpress.com/tag/moistureprotein-balance/

It shows very nicely how the different curls look (over protein, good balance, over moisture). You might indeed need a good protein treatment.
First clarify, though. Then a protein treatment. And finish with a moisture treatment.

Good luck!
oooo this! great linkage kiwiwi!

id agree with this article and say perhaps you're over moisturised? your hair looks very silky and shiney btw

[lapushka]

Your curls might have been tighter, but I see a lot more frizz in those early pics. The curls you have now look absolutely amazing and gorgeous, yes, loosened some, but gorgeous nonetheless. I much prefer them now. I do get that you liked your curls before, so maybe going back to your old routine for a while might help. Or combine routines, or something?

[DarkCurls]

Yes, lapushka, I think I'm going to try S&C for a while, to see if it coaxes some curls back.
I realise my hair is healthier now. :p And that there's way less frizz. I love my current routine and how my hair feels, but looking back at these photos, I miss the curls.

Thanks goldloli (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=48398). :)

[SoulOfTheSea]

I honestly don't think your hair has gotten any less curly! It looks like in your older pictures that perhaps your hair was tangly (due to lack of moisture) and so the curls were sticking together in clumps, making them look more spiraly. (Get what I'm saying?) Now that your hair is properly moisturized and detangled, each curl is coming out and doing it's own thing! I'd say that your transformation is nothing to be sad about, it looks fantastic! :)

[DarkCurls]

Gaah... a few more compliments and you may just convince me. :)

[SoulOfTheSea]

Gaah... a few more compliments and you may just convince me. :)

I hope it does! :D

[meishkamooshka]

:agape:

I've never been so envious of hair in my entire life. It's dark, thick, and curly. I'm having spasms about YOUR hair. It's fantastic either way....*enters curl-induced coma, with drool forming at corners of mouth*

[DarkCurls]

Ah, well, I think meishkamooshka takes the prize. I've never had anyone tell me that. *floating on a cloud*

[Thinthondiel]

I have waves rather than curls, but I've experienced the same thing... the drier my hair is, the wavier it is, and the more moisturised it is, the looser the waves get.

Back when I used only sulphate shampoos and coney conditioners, my hair was wavier (even a bit spirally... which it isn't anymore, so I guess I should retype it). However, it was also frizzy. Now it's more moisturised, but not as wavy. I miss the amount of wave I had, but not the frizz.

[DarkCurls]

That sounds exactly like what I've experienced Thinthondiel. Thank you for sharing, now I don't feel lonely. :p

[Puertoricangirl]

Thank you.
I have layers too, actually, but I've had them for years so I'm pretty sure it's not that. The shortest layers curl up the most, anyway (obviously). The moisture + wearing hear up is really the only thing that has changed. I don't plop either, but then I never did. ^^ I've tried it four times and it's never done anything for me, so I gave up.

The annoying thing is that the first two pictures were taken at a time where I wore my hair down every single day (literally), never used conditioner, watched it four times a week with sulfate shampoo, and ripped a brush with those terribly plastic ball points through it when it was wet. And I still like the way it looked more. :D

That happened to me when I started really taking care of my hair, stopped straightening it occasionally, and stopped using sulfates. I was COing for a while but then my sister said I was making my own dreadlocks! lol so I went back to sulfates! I don't straighten my hair anymore and use coconut oil on occasion... but when I look back at old pictures I love how my hair looked back then more than now. My hair looks so much better with sulfates and I miss straightening my bangs since they curl up all short :(

When I shampoo and condition as usual...my hair looks really pretty and moisturized when I sleep with the conditioner. There are days where my hair goes limp and if I use too much oil or brush it lol! I used to wear my hair down every single day too and my hair still was in better shape. :confused: go figure :confused::confused:

[DarkCurls]

I wouldn't say my hair was in better shape... I just liked the way it looked more. :D
Ah well. I'm still going to be gentle with it, but in a few minutes I'm going to shampoo the heck out of it and then leave a protein treatment in for as long as I can stand. *shudder* That is going to feel horrible. I hate the way my hair feels after shampoo. :p

[Terra]

Hi DarkCurs,

I experienced the same as you do: with less treatment my hair is tighter, but also drier. And also your pictures really reminds me on my hair. I still get those tight curls, especially on 3rd or 4th hair day, when I don't add some moisture...
But I like my new soft and shiny curls. :cool:

[DarkCurls]

Ah, gorgeous hair Terra. You're a tightly curly! :D I feel barely curly at all when I look at your hair.

As predicted, my hair now feels awful. It was worse right after the shampoo (ALS and ALES). It became soft and smooth with the protein treatment (I really put it on thick), then straw-like again after I rinsed it out, then soft again with the conditioner, then straw-like again after I rinsed that out. Now I'm waiting for it to dry... which should happen in about five hours. :p

[Terra]

Ah, gorgeous hair Terra. You're a tightly curly! :D I feel barely curly at all when I look at your hair.

As predicted, my hair now feels awful. It was worse right after the shampoo (ALS and ALES). It became soft and smooth with the protein treatment (I really put it on thick), then straw-like again after I rinsed it out, then soft again with the conditioner, then straw-like again after I rinsed that out. Now I'm waiting for it to dry... which should happen in about five hours. :p
Thanks DarkCurls! :hollie: But you don't have to feel barely curly! I love your latest curls. They look really healthy and without any frizz.

Do you know Teri from http://www.tightlycurly.com/welcome ? She has really tight curls. But they are loose and also not cylinder-y.

I'm looking forward about news from your results as soon your hair is dry.:popcorn: (Mine takes about 4 hours to get dry.)

[DarkCurls]

Aah, she has incredible hair. :thud::thudpile:

I probably exaggerated a bit... my hair is mostly dry by 2-3 hours, but takes ages to go from slightly damp to fully dry.

[CurlyCurves]

((hugs))

I would say you're a 2c/3a now, like your profile says. But try clarifying and a protein treatment. You never know!

Edit; doh, you done it. Can't wait to see the results!

I'm off to do a protein treatment myself. As you can see in my sig pic, I have some heat damage and I am hoping to baby my curls back to reversion :(

[CurlyCurves]

http://pittsburghcurly.wordpress.com/tag/moistureprotein-balance/



HER.

HAIR.

IS.

AMAZING.

:thud::thud::agape::agape:

The colour. The curls. The shine. The health.

:thud:

[Tota]

My hair is just (not even that much) wavy but I agree with you - the more moisture my hair gets the looser the waves. So sometimes I intentionally deprive my hair of moisture just to get that "big hair" effect. I'm bad, I know. :(

[DarkCurls]

I have heat damage too, CurlyCurves, so I hope the babying goes well.

Tota, that's exactly what I'm thinking of doing... *cough*

[Terra]

As predicted, my hair now feels awful. It was worse right after the shampoo (ALS and ALES). It became soft and smooth with the protein treatment (I really put it on thick), then straw-like again after I rinsed it out, then soft again with the conditioner, then straw-like again after I rinsed that out. Now I'm waiting for it to dry... which should happen in about five hours. :p
And how did it go? :popcorn:

[DarkCurls]

Um... mixed feelings. I think the protein helped, and maybe I did have too much build-up. But I really, really don't like the way my hair feels -- all tangly and stuff. I'm just not used to it anymore! With CO the ends didn't go all velcro on me, which is what they're doing now.
Ah, well. I suppose I'll have to get used to the new look. :p

[Terra]

Um... mixed feelings. I think the protein helped, and maybe I did have too much build-up. But I really, really don't like the way my hair feels -- all tangly and stuff. I'm just not used to it anymore! With CO the ends didn't go all velcro on me, which is what they're doing now.
Ah, well. I suppose I'll have to get used to the new look. :p
That doesn't sound that successful. :hmm:
But at least you know it now. It could have been working...
Be happy about your new soft and silk hair. Not everybody has this luck. :-)

[DarkCurls]

I guess it wasn't really a success. ^^ Maybe if I repeatedly shampoo it with no conditioner... XD But, my poor hair.

Yeah, I'l learn to appreciate it, I suppose.

[CurlyCurves]

I have heat damage too, CurlyCurves, so I hope the babying goes well.



I have just realised something. If you have heat damage, that explains the looser curls. I saw in your other thread that you said you only stopped flat ironing constantly last year, and you haven't cut the damage, right?

Well, that makes sense. Heat damages protein bonds and breaks them down (someone correct me if I'm wrong). This causes your curl to loosen, or for some people, completely lose them.

In this pic, it defo looks like heat damage to me;

Your best bet is a big chop or gradually cutting damage, if you want your curls back. Of course, that's only if it is damage and not something fixable.

http://i47.tinypic.com/j0y3o5.jpg

[LaLaBella]

Have you tried putting conditioner on the length and just shampooing (is shampooing even a word?) the length. This is what I have to do because I still have litttle bit of residual damage.
You curls look much healthier but the top looks slightly weighed down so you may want to consider this as an option.

[brave]

I had the same experience actually. Back when I shampooed with no conditioner, or shampooed with crappy conditioner every day, I had much tighter curls. I've been trying to figure out how much of that was due to teenage hormone hair and how much of it was actually my hair. In your case obviously your hair type hasn't changed but the moisture has loosened it.

To be fair, I think both pictures are absolutely enviously beautiful, but the newer ones look much healthier.

[earthnut]

It's sad that you lost your curl! But your hair is also looking SO much healthier and I really prefer the "after". I wish my curls looked so good!

What's your hair porosity? What conditioner are you using? Are you using any other products?

naturallycurly.com is really the gold resource for CO information. The people over on that forum would probably be more helpful with troubleshooting than we are.

Which conditioners have you tried? I found different conditioners made a huge difference in how my hair curled with CO. Suave made my hair limp, like you're describing. Nature's Gate made my hair really curly, but stiff (probably because of the protein). Everyday Shea felt the best so I stuck with that. You may be using the wrong product for your hair.

There are also lots of ways to promote "clumping", depending on how you handle the hair during and after washing. A difference method might make a big difference for you. Here's a list:

Icequeen Method
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/69033-oh-clumps-icequeen-method.html

Super-Soaker Method
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/81176-super-soaker-method-promoting-clumps-updated-video-link.html

Spritz and Condish method
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/89299-spritz-condish-washing-porous-types-thirsty-curls-everywhere.html

Smasters method
http://naturallycurly.com/curltalk/showthread.php?t=92240

Tightlycurly method
www.tightlycurly.com/welcome

[DarkCurls]

LaLaBella: I CO, and use shampoo on my scalp once or twice a month because I get flakes or sores otherwise.
CurlyCurves: I suppose... I think all of my hair is damaged except the top six to ten inches (depending on how fast my hair grew ^^). But since I stopped before the "before" pictures were taken, I don't get why it would have changed so much. But, yeah, I do have a good deal of damage, I think. I've only had one trim since I stopped using heat. :p The big chop is not an option, and I'm not sure how I feel about cutting it out gradually, either. I think I'll get small trims until I reach hip, then stop there to get rid of the damage (which should take... two years). Thanks for the insight.
Thank you brave. :)