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View Full Version : SO annoyed. Hate the 'good hair/bad hair' mentality..



CurlyCurves
June 27th, 2012, 12:43 PM
May I have a little rant? It may be cathartic, and I can hear your views also.

Okay, so my Auntie just seriously peed me off. We were watching the news, me somewhat absent mindedly :p, and this black athlete was talking. I mentioned, in passing, that she was really pretty, but I'd much prefer if she was natural. Fake hair just ruins the look for me.

Anyway, so my Auntie said;

"But you don't know what her hair's like. It's easy for you, you've got nice hair. Some people don't have nice hair".

Then she went on to mention her friend who has 'pepper grains' (her words, not mine) and lots of shrinkage, saying "how is she meant to brush her hair every day?". (*facepalm*)

:steam:steam

For. Pete's. Sake.

I love my Auntie to bits, but that was a hell of an ignorant thing to say. It's basically 'good hair vs bad hair'.

I don't give a damn - healthy hair is good hair. Some people have preferences for certain textures, curl patterns (or lack of one), colour, etc. THAT'S FINE. But there is NO one hair type that is universally ugly, or 'bad', or 'not nice', or whatever.

It just makes me angry and sad. So many black ladies are afraid to go natural, or are told they can't 'cos 'they don't have nice hair', and that's not fair. So, they should suffocate their hair under ugly weaves or apply freakin' lye to it to make it straight, just because their hair is 'not nice'? BULLCRAP.

/rant.

Tisiloves
June 27th, 2012, 12:51 PM
I never understood that, round my way there are a lot of Barbie doll weaves and bad relaxer damage, their own hair has to be better than that.

caadam
June 27th, 2012, 12:54 PM
Sorry...

"...seriously peed me off." lawl e we I've never heard that said, or written before. Awesome.

Anyway... yeah, I know how that is, and I can see where it can be really annoying. My thing is to vent and then let it roll off my shoulders. I'm one of those people who will dwell a lot on something that bothers me (and I'm not saying that's what you're doing! I'm just saying this about me, is all ♥), so I really had to teach myself to let things go after they work me up.

I do agree, though, that a lot of black women don't tend to favor their own hair, which I think is sad. I love their hair! It's so shiny and textured in all kinds of different ways. It's very beautiful to me when I see a black woman take care of the hair they have, let it grow, and show off how awesome it is. But I guess to each his own; I can also understand if someone wants to alter their hair one way or another, but because they think their hair is ugly? Not so. I think it's better to learn how to have confidence in what nature already gave you before trying to supplement what you think you don't have. That way you're already comfortable with yourself, you've accepted all the imperfections and wonders of your own body. :D Just my take on it.

CurlyCap
June 27th, 2012, 12:56 PM
Sigh.

I think as a woman with brown skin and ANY hair type not in the 4s, you're going to hear this all your life. I have. It never goes away.

I've tried to have open and honest conversations with my black friends about why so many hate the gorgeous hair they have, and I just can't break through the huge cultural stigmatism they have against their own hair. I don't get it. They love their skin, they love their curves...but they hate their hair even though it's as strong a racial trait as any of the above.

There is no such thing as good or bad hair. There's sick and healthy hair. Beautiful styles and unfortunate styling choices.

If you know this and teach it to anyone impressionable that you meet, maybe things will change with time.

But yeah. It's very VERY frustrating.

spidermom
June 27th, 2012, 01:02 PM
I don't give it much thought to tell you the truth. If anybody says anything about "bad" hair, I immediately chalk it up to personal preference. I have my personal preferences, too.

luxepiggy
June 27th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Okay, so my Auntie just seriously peed me off. We were watching the news, me somewhat absent mindedly :p, and this black athlete was talking. I mentioned, in passing, that she was really pretty, but I'd much prefer if she was natural. Fake hair just ruins the look for me.

With all due respect, I find this statement to be just as judgmental as what your aunt said. :(

Bene
June 27th, 2012, 01:29 PM
It's a matter of personal preference. Some people look at hair on that sort of gradient, others don't. Don't let it bother you because, in the end, you can only control what YOU do and say. Life is too short to get all hacked off over this.

LaFlor
June 27th, 2012, 01:35 PM
I don't think it is wrong for a black women to want to change her hair if she really wants to.

But I do think it is horrible that black women are made to feel that their natural hair texture is somehow bad or wrong and that they MUST change it to be accepted. I would love to see more women who are comfortable with their natural hair and that appreciate what they have. I do agree that people need to stop saying that certain hair is bad or good because that only puts people down and makes them insecure :blossom:

Shiranshoku
June 27th, 2012, 01:41 PM
I don't think relaxing your hair is any worse than dying it, straightening it, ...
It's not good for it, but a lot of people do it because they like the results. I really like naturally curlies, though. But I think relaxed hair can be very pretty too. It's nothing more than a personal preference.

ohmygackt
June 27th, 2012, 01:46 PM
If they don't have straight hair naturally, and it would make them happy if they had it, they should get it. Its their hair, their appearance. If they want to kill their hair, if it makes them happy, let them. If they want to baby their hair and take really good care of it because it makes them happy, let them.
But saying her fake hair 'ruined' it for you, is kinda just as bad as do what your aunt did. In the end it doesn't matter what you or your aunt or what anyone thinks. If you like it and you're happy, why do you need someone elses approval.
But I do agree with you on the note that 'good hair' vs 'bad hair' isn't fair.

LaFlor
June 27th, 2012, 01:49 PM
I think it would be good to bring up whether or not their preferences are influenced by what they are told and what they see when they are growing up and what they see in the media. If you grow up hearing your hair is bad/ugly and see that the other women in your life all change/cover their hair texture, and on top of that all of the black women you look up to on television and in music are changing/covering their hair texture, it would be pretty hard to have a preference for other things. Especially if you started relaxing your hair as a child... you wouldn't even know what your natural hair is really like.

dollyfish
June 27th, 2012, 01:59 PM
Ever see Chris Rock's movie "Good Hair"? It's all about this.

I think the whole "good hair/bad hair" thing goes FAR beyond personal preference. This is internalized racism at its finest. The worst part is, women of color perpetuate this just as much as anyone else. It's like women who perpetuate sexism. For many women of color, not relaxing hair is equal to not shaving one's legs. It's a "choice," yes, but it's not *really* a choice everyone is free to make. The idea that hair can be "too black" is just awful (yes, I have heard people use this wording). Not only are white skin and features the ideal, but white people hair that flows in the wind is somehow "better" than type 4 halo or mane hair. I think the extremes are all beautiful in their own ways!

So yeah, to the people who say it's nothing more than personal preference, there are actually entire fields of sociology dedicated to studying how racism presents itself in this way. The idea that women of color have to chemically treat themselves to be "good" or even remotely acceptable is far more complex than individual preference :(

And OP, I'm sorry that somehow your aunt acted like your opinion on natural hair is lessened by having "good" hair. That's just not fair.

pink.sara
June 27th, 2012, 02:01 PM
I don't really think my cousin relaxing her 4b curls to be any different to me bleaching and dying mine. It's preference. :shrug:

I do think society is a little harsh on women with natural afro type hair. I read an awesome article recently with Thandie Newton saying how she had always straightened and styled her "nappy" hair to be more Hollywood, but was starting to wear her natural texture to encourage her daughters to as well. It also featured Solange Knowles who refuses to do the Beyonce thing and wear a weave/wig. And they both looked stunning.

LaFlor
June 27th, 2012, 02:31 PM
I don't really think my cousin relaxing her 4b curls to be any different to me bleaching and dying mine. It's preference. :shrug:


I think it depends on where the preference comes from. If she was made to believe her natural hair was okay and she decided out of her own will to relax her hair... then yes, it is a preference.

If she was brainwashed to believe her hair was horrible and ugly unless she relaxed it, then it's not entirely a preference.

HazyMoon
June 27th, 2012, 02:38 PM
I think it would be good to bring up whether or not their preferences are influenced by what they are told and what they see when they are growing up and what they see in the media. If you grow up hearing your hair is bad/ugly and see that the other women in your life all change/cover their hair texture, and on top of that all of the black women you look up to on television and in music are changing/covering their hair texture, it would be pretty hard to have a preference for other things. Especially if you started relaxing your hair as a child... you wouldn't even know what your natural hair is really like.

THIS.... I completely agree. I don't like how there are some many negative messages about this hair texture.

I was in a store recently and saw a advertisement for a product that relaxed young girls' hair. I was shocked. The girl knows barely anything about styling her hair at 7, and her guardians are going to relax it. Perhaps it would be for convenience, I don't know.

Personally, I think that it is easier to work with your body/genetics than against it. I do think that natural kinky, curly hair is very pretty. My dad told me something when I was a teenager, "what you were born with looks best on you." I'm sure that could be up for debate; it's a matter of taste. For me, it has proven true. And for many cases, fake hair does look fake to me.

Rufflebutt
June 27th, 2012, 02:41 PM
I have a close friend who is half black and is convinced that her natural hair is ugly. She flat irons it almost daily and her hair is extremely damaged from all of the harsh chemicals that she puts on it. She insists that her hair isn't damaged but you can see so many split ends and breakage.
I remember one time she let it go natural one summer and it almost got to BSL. It was so pretty. But she insists that her natural hair is ugly and she would rather get it relaxed and have it flat ironed.

Le sigh.

Arden
June 27th, 2012, 02:50 PM
I agree. I think it's horrible. Not just for the sake of hair but generally where appearance is concerned. I think our socioty is beginning to move in the direction of "natural" / "healthy" is beautiful.. but it's a long way off and there are still so many ingrained stigma's ...be it curly hair, gray hair, light skin, dark skin... people are going to find way's to be hateful.... And alot of the time people dont even REALIZE they're being hateful...

I can understand your anger.. but maybe you could try to use this as an oppertunity to talk to your aunt and maybe help her find a new perspective...

It may work.. It may not work....

just my own little story....

My whole life I was treated as if I have stright hair... my whole life I have struggeled to keep my hair from sticking up in random palces, frizzing up on top... wondering why it turns into a poof ball when i blow dry it.... etc etc....

Then I joined LHC and learned about hair typing... my hair is not truely "stright" ...I personally was excited to learn this because I always wanted wavy / curly hair.... Maybe somewhere in my heart deep down I just instintively new I wasnt really stright...

So here I am just litterally days into my new knowledge and this woman who works at Ulta is all but rolling her eyes at me because I want to ENCURAGE the curl... She says to me, "You dont need this stuff. What you need is some moose and a round brush."

I thought to myself, Lady I've been round brushing my hair for decades just to MAKE IT behave. I'm tired of trying to put my hair into a shape it wasnt ment to have because socioty thinks i'm "prettier" that way....

I'm probably abit strong minded about this because I'm like a "born again" on hair. I want to learn to care for MY hair properly.. not the way I'm told I should be but in such a way that benifits and makes beautiful my hair as it should be naturally

riceball
June 27th, 2012, 03:43 PM
I don't mean to offend but what do you think of braids and dreadlocks? Do you think people adopt those styles because they dislike their natural texture? I think these are beautiful and healthy hair styles.

I feel that no one should be criticized for their hair choices, whether they go along with societal norms or not. But I get where you're coming from, it is infuriating to be told that your hair is not "okay" because it's too big/textured/whatever. I just don't bother arguing with anyone anymore about my personal decision to leave my hair natural. It's so hard to get ignorant people to see any other way.

DaniVerde
June 27th, 2012, 04:00 PM
Even women who are not black, but with curly hair, experience this....Since I quit the relaxers, I've had people ask me "Have you forgotten to brush your hair today?" and also gotten this lovely comment (from a lady with 1a/1b hair): "I've always felt sorry for people with curly hair...they always look so messy!"

Yes, I look like a lion with my curly roots and straight ends...but I love the way my hair stands up!

My hair is nowhere near a 4 texture...but the prejudice against curl is still there.

DarkCurls
June 27th, 2012, 04:19 PM
"Have you forgotten to brush your hair today?" and also gotten this lovely comment (from a lady with 1a/1b hair): "I've always felt sorry for people with curly hair...they always look so messy!"

Geez, that's so mean. And stupid. :confused: I love my hair; if anything, I'd want it to be curlier! Why should curly have to mean messy? Just because it's not sleek and straight doesn't mean it's messy. Straight, wavy, and curly hair are all gorgeous if they're healthy... *sigh* Yeah, I don't get the good hair/bad hair mentality either.

MoonLover
June 27th, 2012, 04:21 PM
OP, I agree with you that natural hair is much more beautiful but that is just an opinion too. Some women may like the look of relaxed hair or weaves. Though some women like it because they really like it and some women prefer to keep their hair that way because they are more likely to get a job or it's better for them in certain social interactions (which I think is terrible and wrong but if they feel that's what they need to do to put food on the table, how can I blame them?)

As for no one believing brown girls who don't have 4 hair: it is kind of true that you will never really understand the stigma of 4 hair. I feel it's like when a beautiful Pakistani friend of mine wrote a long rant/blog post about skin lightening creams in Asia and encouraged/admonished brown Asians to love their skin color. It's a noble thought but with her creamy white skin she will never understand what it's like to be a dark woman in a culture that despises darkness in women. Know what I mean?

lm119
June 27th, 2012, 04:29 PM
I don't mean to offend but what do you think of braids and dreadlocks? Do you think people adopt those styles because they dislike their natural texture? I think these are beautiful and healthy hair styles.

I feel that no one should be criticized for their hair choices, whether they go along with societal norms or not. But I get where you're coming from, it is infuriating to be told that your hair is not "okay" because it's too big/textured/whatever. I just don't bother arguing with anyone anymore about my personal decision to leave my hair natural. It's so hard to get ignorant people to see any other way.

Before hhj I wore braids as a hairstyle. I now use braids (without added hair) more of a function to grow my hair because braids help with my retention. For example I can wash and condition in braids as much as I want and not be stressed out because braids keeps my hair from getting tangles. My hair never reached my shoulder until I learned how to gently manage it.

swearnsue
June 27th, 2012, 04:37 PM
It's getting hard to tell what hair is natural anymore. I thought Jennifer Lopez's hair was beautiful until someone said it was all extensions and photoshop. In movies so much of the hair is really wigs. I don't think I've seen natural Black hair in years, and then yesterday there was a clip of Maya Anjelou and there was natural hair! It was really beautiful to see really, salt and pepper small/medium afro. It's hard enough to accept and love ourselves and its just about impossible when society is against you too.

BlazingHeart
June 27th, 2012, 04:40 PM
My aide, who is black, relaxes her hair. I sometimes want to say something, but I know that as I am not a woman of color, it's problematic for me to say anything. I kind of wish I could, because I think she could rock natural hair. But it's her hair, and in a way me saying anything is reinforcing the racial issues, because it'd be a white woman telling a black woman what she should do with her hair.

LaFlor
June 27th, 2012, 04:48 PM
As for no one believing brown girls who don't have 4 hair: it is kind of true that you will never really understand the stigma of 4 hair. I feel it's like when a beautiful Pakistani friend of mine wrote a long rant/blog post about skin lightening creams in Asia and encouraged/admonished brown Asians to love their skin color. It's a noble thought but with her creamy white skin she will never understand what it's like to be a dark woman in a culture that despises darkness in women. Know what I mean?

Very True. It is hard to believe someone who doesn't understand your particular issue. But I do believe that a lot of people have suffered being looked down upon for something in their lives, whether it be weight, body type, acne, skin color, hair texture, etc. So most people can relate to the feeling of not being accepted for something about themselves. So atleast the feeling is something other people can relate to!

annah
June 27th, 2012, 05:35 PM
I don't think it is wrong for a black women to want to change her hair if she really wants to.

But I do think it is horrible that black women are made to feel that their natural hair texture is somehow bad or wrong and that they MUST change it to be accepted. I would love to see more women who are comfortable with their natural hair and that appreciate what they have. I do agree that people need to stop saying that certain hair is bad or good because that only puts people down and makes them insecure :blossom:

This exactly. I'm not good with saying things tactfully, but she said it perfectly.

I would love to see more black women wearing their hair naturally. I haven't felt enough black hair to make generalizations, but every black person I have met with natural hair (men I have dated, or female friends) had incredible hair. I would prefer more people would embrace what they have, than be pressured to fit into a social norm.

jacqueline101
June 27th, 2012, 05:49 PM
I agree its a personal preference as to what we consider good hair. I think in general healthy hair is good.

riceball
June 27th, 2012, 05:50 PM
Before hhj I wore braids as a hairstyle. I now use braids (without added hair) more of a function to grow my hair because braids help with my retention. For example I can wash and condition in braids as much as I want and not be stressed out because braids keeps my hair from getting tangles. My hair never reached my shoulder until I learned how to gently manage it.

Cool, I'm glad you reached shoulder!

HintOfMint
June 27th, 2012, 06:06 PM
Perhaps this is a bit simplistic but, I see it the way I see makeup.

If you like to relax/straighten your hair because you want a particular style and you just happen to like it, great. I like wearing winged black eye-liner because I like the retro look.

If you think that you're ugly/unprofessional/any combination of horrible things if you don't have straight or relaxed hair, then that's problematic. If I can't even go to work as a woman without makeup (and it's not a looks-based job) then Houston we have a problem.

There's a difference in approaching grooming with joy and approaching grooming with fear.

Then there is a disquieting racial aspect to it all that makes it different. I guarantee no one would give some sort of blase excuse of "it's just preference" when regarding skin bleaching within darker skinned cultures.

MinderMutsig
June 27th, 2012, 06:13 PM
My aide, who is black, relaxes her hair. I sometimes want to say something, but I know that as I am not a woman of color, it's problematic for me to say anything. I kind of wish I could, because I think she could rock natural hair. But it's her hair, and in a way me saying anything is reinforcing the racial issues, because it'd be a white woman telling a black woman what she should do with her hair. I think criticizing her relaxed hair is similar to people telling us to cut/dye/perm/straighten/blowdry our hair. Everyone has their own preferences and their own reasons for wearing their hair the way they do and that is their business and no one else's no matter what their reasons are.

I do agree the death of the good hair / bad hair thing is long overdue but all we can really do about that is accept people for who they are and how they prefer to present themselves.

torrilin
June 27th, 2012, 06:26 PM
My aide, who is black, relaxes her hair. I sometimes want to say something, but I know that as I am not a woman of color, it's problematic for me to say anything. I kind of wish I could, because I think she could rock natural hair. But it's her hair, and in a way me saying anything is reinforcing the racial issues, because it'd be a white woman telling a black woman what she should do with her hair.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying you think curly hair is pretty. There's a big difference between telling someone "you should wear your hair this way" and being appreciative of their natural qualities.

I happen to live in a part of town where the black parents tend to put in a lot of effort into their little girls' natural hair. Even if the mom's hair is relaxed, chances are her two year old is natural and gorgeous, with carefully done up puffs or tiny braids. So I try to make a point to tell the mom that her little girl is pretty. And if I meet a grown woman who wears her hair natural, I do try to tell her I think her hair looks great. And honestly some weaves and very "done" looks can be good too. One of my coworkers a few years back would wear braids in a huge BSL+ cascade and she always looked like a princess to me. (and I did tell her so, because I know that must have been HOURS at the salon to do)

I have a lot harder time appreciating the aesthetics of relaxed hair. I know there is an aesthetic that women who relax are trying to work with. But to me it seems like all of the long hours in a salon, without any of the sparkles or extra full or long hair as a payoff. I tend to feel like this is a fairly serious personal failing. There's clearly an allure there, or no one would ever do it. I can usually manage to at least see the point in art, even if it's not my thing. But for relaxed hair, I haven't really managed it.

luxepiggy
June 27th, 2012, 06:30 PM
There's a difference in approaching grooming with joy and approaching grooming with fear.
Well said!


Then there is a disquieting racial aspect to it all that makes it different. I guarantee no one would give some sort of blase excuse of "it's just preference" when regarding skin bleaching within darker skinned cultures.

I can see where you're coming from with this, but I also sometimes feel like people are too quick to see racial undertones where they don't necessarily exist. For example, many critics of Asian blepharoplasty often say that those who have undergone the procedure are trying to look more "Western," when this is almost never the case. Larger eyes were considered more beautiful in East Asia long before those cultures ever came into contact with the West. Similarly, the incredible popularity of skin-whitening cosmetics in East Asia is, if anything, a rejection of the current Western preference for tanned complexions.

Mesmerise
June 27th, 2012, 06:46 PM
I don't think it is wrong for a black women to want to change her hair if she really wants to.

But I do think it is horrible that black women are made to feel that their natural hair texture is somehow bad or wrong and that they MUST change it to be accepted. I would love to see more women who are comfortable with their natural hair and that appreciate what they have. I do agree that people need to stop saying that certain hair is bad or good because that only puts people down and makes them insecure :blossom:

This...


I don't think relaxing your hair is any worse than dying it, straightening it, ...
It's not good for it, but a lot of people do it because they like the results. I really like naturally curlies, though. But I think relaxed hair can be very pretty too. It's nothing more than a personal preference.

And this...

And yeah, a lot of other good points too!

I agree that it's unfortunate that many black women believe they have "bad hair" because the so-called ideal is straighter/sleeker/shinier hair. But it's no different to a woman with brown hair bleaching her hair blonde because she considers that ideal... or whatever else.

My hair is naturally graying, and while many are quite happy to let that process occur naturally (and kudos to them!) I don't want to be told that I should "accept my natural hair" and not colour it. I'm not going to STOP colouring it for many years, I don't think (for all that I use henna now instead of chemical dye).

Right now I am just NOT in a frame of mind to accept gray hair on myself, so I can't judge someone with what I would consider amazing 4a curls because she wants to relax it. I may think, "Oh, but your natural hair is GORGEOUS!!" but it's not what I think that counts. There may be those who would look at me and think, "Let your sparklies show wild and free, the way nature intended!!" but regardless of what they think, I will ignore it, because I don't WANT my sparklies to be wild and free!!!

So while I do understand and agree with your sentiment that there's no "bad hair" or "good hair", it's really up to the individual to do what makes them happy with their hair.

christyrose
June 27th, 2012, 07:10 PM
While I think pin straight hair is beautiful, super curly hair is so cool. I always see woman with super tight curly hair that almost sticks straight up it is so thick and think wow thats beautiful.... Whether they are black woman or super pale woman, it all looks so unique to me, and isnt something I see much, which I think makes it more special. I do think woman should feel comfortable in their own skin, but I dont feel like my hair looks amazing so I understand where those woman are coming from. Plus someone with that curly of hair I would imagine its a little more work to take care of it then someone with straight hair. Maybe people with curly hair straighten it because its just easier to manage, or they have never got taught how to style their hair growing up. I think our perception of beauty makes woman do a lot of things. We all fall into cultural pressures, people in other countries wear their hair completely different than we do, its because thats the norm there, or wear different kinds of makeup than we do, only wear skirts, etc.. We all dress and wear our hair how we feel is acceptable to those around us, the difference is that we have such a wider range of normal than other cultures. If a woman that has super curly hair is around a bunch of other curly haired woman who all straighten theirs it might be hard to not go with the crowd!

Sivan
June 27th, 2012, 08:27 PM
Ever see Chris Rock's movie "Good Hair"? It's all about this.

I think the whole "good hair/bad hair" thing goes FAR beyond personal preference. This is internalized racism at its finest. The worst part is, women of color perpetuate this just as much as anyone else. It's like women who perpetuate sexism. For many women of color, not relaxing hair is equal to not shaving one's legs. It's a "choice," yes, but it's not *really* a choice everyone is free to make. The idea that hair can be "too black" is just awful (yes, I have heard people use this wording). Not only are white skin and features the ideal, but white people hair that flows in the wind is somehow "better" than type 4 halo or mane hair. I think the extremes are all beautiful in their own ways!

So yeah, to the people who say it's nothing more than personal preference, there are actually entire fields of sociology dedicated to studying how racism presents itself in this way. The idea that women of color have to chemically treat themselves to be "good" or even remotely acceptable is far more complex than individual preference :(

And OP, I'm sorry that somehow your aunt acted like your opinion on natural hair is lessened by having "good" hair. That's just not fair.

^^^^^^ this!!

When I saw "Good Hair", I was sad that many of the women interviewed felt their natural hair was undesirable. Children are being taught this, too. There was a 4 year old girl who had her hair relaxed during the movie. She said something along the lines of doing it because "you have to".

Dovetail
June 27th, 2012, 08:44 PM
I think a person should do what they please, to please themselves. It isn't like relaxing, or not relaxing, or bleaching or dying or oiling or not is going to hurt anyone besides themselves.

I saw a girl with a legit Afro it was AWESOME and I told her so. She seemed kind of surprised and just said "really?" before kind of wandering off. I felt kind of bad that she thought her hair was that bad, or that people didn't like it. Maybe she thought she was having a bad hair day. I feel bad when girls are brought up to do things just because society says so.

Even wearing a bra, girls are trained to wear these because it's the right thing to do, and none of us really question it. Maybe some girls don't wear bras (such as in other cultures) and they could then have the option to start if they'd like. Lots of things in life are like this for boys and girls, but it doesn't make it "good" or "bad" or pretty or ugly or whatever.

My husband had long hair (like lower back long) and when he'd go to apply people would ask if he was going to cut his hair. He usually grew it out to donate, and had no qualms saying so. It usually got people off his back. It's short now, because he wants it that way, and that's ok too.

I guess I'm pretty "laissez faire" about life.

lacefrost
June 27th, 2012, 10:51 PM
It just makes me angry and sad. So many black ladies are afraid to go natural, or are told they can't 'cos 'they don't have nice hair', and that's not fair.

Yup. I live in Atlanta so I see a lot of this. For the women who don't want to go curly, that's fine. It just breaks my heart when women talk about wanting to but not being able to.

I have managed to encourage a lot of women to go natural. Simply because I have the hair their mother warned them about. My hair is the definition of "bad hair." It's coarse, incredibly thick, with curls the size of coffee stirrers. It does not clump. It does not lay down. It's natural shape is an afro. I have "bad hair". . .and everyone loves it. So I tell them that if I can have bad hair and they love it, no reason not to go natural. (shrugs)

I mean, don't get me wrong. Sometimes I'm a bit sad. I see all those youtube videos where girls put their hair in puffs and it lays down and explodes in girls in the back. . .I see the videos where girls do wash and gos and it's beautiful. . . And these are all 3c/4a types. My hair just doesn't do that.

I think part of the beauty of going natural, whether in curl type or hair color, is embracing your body totally.

Arya
June 27th, 2012, 11:35 PM
I love love love Black women's hair. Whether it's a natural afro or a beautiful braids or an electric pink weave, I'm always amazed at the versatility, creativity and variety. But, being a white girl, it's so hard to talk about it! Basically anything I say is going to have racial connotations, no one needs my approval. I don't want to seem 'othering' or exoticizing or something, so I usually don't say anything at all (even though I'm inwardly feeling like saying WOW!). I'm just so happy that natural textures are becoming common and acceptable in different spaces. It's awful when people say this look or that look is unprofessional, and expect women to change their natural hair texture to look closer to the Caucasian standard if they want to be considered beautiful or professional.

clarinette
June 28th, 2012, 12:15 AM
I grew up (as a white girl ) in the carribeans, and we had a big prevention thing going on at school about just this. The first year of high school , we were regularly shown movies about slavery and studied the cultural impact it had had on the way people judged their own skins and hair. The stories that really drove the point into our brains were the ones describing how, when a slave had a baby with some white guy, she would be desperate to have it come out as white looking as possible so that he/she might grow up to be free. It's not something that can disappear from a culture in just a few generations , it used to be a survival thing, it's deeply rooted ....
Being white , those movies and stories made me deeply self conscious about my own hair, and I wore it in corn row braids for a year after that , trying to pass for a very clear skinned metis I suppose ^^ But it was liberating for a lot of my friends. Fake hair and straightened hair were looked down upon and natural was embraced . We had good teachers :)

HintOfMint
June 28th, 2012, 12:23 AM
I can see where you're coming from with this, but I also sometimes feel like people are too quick to see racial undertones where they don't necessarily exist. For example, many critics of Asian blepharoplasty often say that those who have undergone the procedure are trying to look more "Western," when this is almost never the case. Larger eyes were considered more beautiful in East Asia long before those cultures ever came into contact with the West. Similarly, the incredible popularity of skin-whitening cosmetics in East Asia is, if anything, a rejection of the current Western preference for tanned complexions.

Of course, not everything is about aping Westerners, you're absolutely right about that.

I am speaking from the point of view of someone of South Asian descent. While India has some serious color problems that pre-date colonialism, British colonialism certainly exacerbated things.

Also, with the caste system there is a (really terrible) joke that when there is a light skinned person in a lower caste or a dark skinned person in an upper caste, someone's mother was getting frisky with someone who wasn't her husband. That pretty much indicates that the colorism isn't a matter of getting tan from manual labor and if we all huddled inside in luxury, we'd all be the same color. It indicates pretty clearly that is the idea that the caste system is broken along ethnic lines--even if that is completely false, the idea persists.

In that sense, skin lightening remains more of a racial/ethnic issue than not. The racial aspect is more pronounced in countries that had a strong colonial presence as can be seen in some Latin American and Caribbean countries.

Ambystoma
June 28th, 2012, 12:26 AM
I think wearing 4 type hair natural is gaining favour amongst african women in my area, I've seen a couple of beautifully cared for 4b ish manes around, as well as lots of pretty braided protective styles. I think it looks really stunning worn lose and big and natural, but I don't envy how much work it must be to keep it looking nice like that!

pink.sara
June 28th, 2012, 12:43 AM
I think it depends on where the preference comes from. If she was made to believe her natural hair was okay and she decided out of her own will to relax her hair... then yes, it is a preference.

If she was brainwashed to believe her hair was horrible and ugly unless she relaxed it, then it's not entirely a preference.

I asked. She's worm her hair natural or in twist most of her life but has been relaxing it for a few years now and said she "fancied a change" but then a have a very multicultural community here in the UK so natural hair is pretty common.

rena
June 28th, 2012, 02:25 AM
It is true that everyone should be allowed their own preference, just as long as those preferences don't involve some type of physical, emotional, or psychological harm to themselves or anyone else. But the reasons behind a given preference are not always founded upon simple "choice". That's when you can't be sure if its actually a preference anymore.

Imagine a woman with type 4 hair who would love to wear her hair natural, and would not even bother with relaxers and/or weaves if she had her way. But, also imagine this same woman always hearing from her girlfriends and family members whether through subtle hints or even blatant verbal disrespect (like OP's Auntie) why its more "acceptable", why she should NOT even consider nuturing what she has naturally. More reasons why she must cover it up with something else rather than proudly display it. No support.

People like Auntie: "Some people don't have nice hair..."
Person with hair she's referring to: "Like me..."

And psychological damage ensues from there. It doesn't help that the media keeps trying to cram messages that say women MUST be pretty down our throats, even if we ourselves don't feel that way.

I read all the time from other members about how their decisions to grow their hair long have been challenged by everyone from mothers to siblings to friends, and so on and so forth. Evidently, their resolve to grow their hair long anyway was stronger than what their family and friends had to say, but not everyone is as confident in their personal decisions and what they know they want to do. Some are lucky, and do enjoy the limited options presented to them by their family and peers, but some do not, and that's when it becomes a problem.

Now imagine a woman with a similar hairtype who is comfortable with her hair, and so are most of the people she knows. As far as she and everyone else is concerned, she could go anyway she wants, and it would be alright. Whatever she decides to do with her hair is based on her preference, and she is not being forcibly "nudged" into a specific direction. More than just one option is wide open to her. If she relaxes her texture or wears other hair, it really is her choice. If she wears braids, pretty cornrow designs, or and afro, that's still actually her choice too, uninfluenced by anyone or anything other than what would make her happiest. If she decides to relax a small section in front and wear it tied like a unicorn horn in the middle of a hat shaped afro, still her choice, and respected as her choice, even if the ones she know wouldn't do that themselves. This is a very special kind of flexibility that is not granted to everyone, and that is tragic.

Things good and bad are passed down through generations. In a world where both men and women of any background can be bosses, scientisists, and inventors, you would wonder how there can still be sexists/racists/descrimination against them, but there is. And it only continues when there are people like OP's aunt who perpetuate such poisonous ideas. I would not call what she said a mere matter of "preference". Do you think someone with the hairtype Auntie was discrediting would hear her words as just simple preference, or something more hurtful? What if that athlete on TV could hear their conversation? How do you think that would affect her feelings, hearing that her hair isn't nice. Imagine hearing that from your friends and loved ones everyday of your life. If your resolve were not strong, what do you think you would eventually do for accpetance, or for nothing else other than shutting them up?

It is a treasured ability to make your own decisions for your own body according to what you really want. The key phrase being what you really want. Is someone's preference based on what they really want? Not always, and it can be very hard to tell unless you know their personal history.

I realize I've said alot here about this matter, but hearing what OP said about her Aunt reminded me of what a close family member of mine said when we were out one day. A lady with long, full, 4 hair was standing on a corner a few feet from us. This family member said: "At least your hair blows in the wind, not like that $%#* over there" I sincerley hope that lady didn't hear her.

:'(.

Jing
June 28th, 2012, 03:00 AM
I think all my thoughts have been discussed already (basically genuine preference = awesomecake, social pressure = awfulcake), so I'll just add that to my personal taste, type 4 hair is awesome. That being said, I grew up in a town where we had a grand total of maybe one or two black families. I think there was one dark-skinned student at my high school. Where I live now, most black women are veil-wearing muslims. I've never come into contact with any type 4 stigma first hand because there's never been that many type 4 heads of hair around.

carolinaberry
June 28th, 2012, 04:01 AM
Another version of this bashing is that girls with thin hair or fine hair that is very straight are told their hair is "stringy" and they need to "get some texture". I heard several girls being made fun of throughout school for this. It is pretty much everyone falling for the media-pushed ideal of beauty-thick, voluminous bouncy hair that runs from slightly wavy-spiraly...but not super-straight/fine hair or anything curlier/kinkier than big spirals.

carolinaberry
June 28th, 2012, 04:17 AM
There's a difference in approaching grooming with joy and approaching grooming with fear.

Then there is a disquieting racial aspect to it all that makes it different. I guarantee no one would give some sort of blase excuse of "it's just preference" when regarding skin bleaching within darker skinned cultures.

Well...I totally agree that there should be no one vision of good hair/bad hair. BUT it isn't just against type 4's...it isn't so simple as racism.

And while almost everyone would agree that it is outrageous to tell brown-skinned people to bleach their skin to be beautiful, American culture tells pale-skinned gals like me that we'd better get a tan to be pretty otherwise we are "sickly" will "blind" people with our legs, etc...and girls will either risk skin cancer or turn themselves orange in an effort to get that perfect shade of tan.

It seems that in America the media's ideal-at least right now-is a one-look-fits-all beauty---a sort of non-specific racial look--tan skin (not too white or too brown), hair that is wavy or spirally (so no 1's or 4's), really thin but with big boobs and big butt, so you need a cream or surgery or certain bra or panties to get the look.

Pretty much the media's goal (which is picked up by the susceptible masses) is that almost no one should be satisfied with the way they look. It is sad and harmful.

Do you know what I find beautiful? Variety and self-acceptance.

carolinaberry
June 28th, 2012, 04:31 AM
May I have a little rant? It may be cathartic, and I can hear your views also.

Okay, so my Auntie just seriously peed me off. We were watching the news, me somewhat absent mindedly :p, and this black athlete was talking. I mentioned, in passing, that she was really pretty, but I'd much prefer if she was natural. Fake hair just ruins the look for me.

Anyway, so my Auntie said;

"But you don't know what her hair's like. It's easy for you, you've got nice hair. Some people don't have nice hair".

Then she went on to mention her friend who has 'pepper grains' (her words, not mine) and lots of shrinkage, saying "how is she meant to brush her hair every day?". (*facepalm*)

:steam:steam

For. Pete's. Sake.

I love my Auntie to bits, but that was a hell of an ignorant thing to say. It's basically 'good hair vs bad hair'.

I don't give a damn - healthy hair is good hair. Some people have preferences for certain textures, curl patterns (or lack of one), colour, etc. THAT'S FINE. But there is NO one hair type that is universally ugly, or 'bad', or 'not nice', or whatever.

It just makes me angry and sad. So many black ladies are afraid to go natural, or are told they can't 'cos 'they don't have nice hair', and that's not fair. So, they should suffocate their hair under ugly weaves or apply freakin' lye to it to make it straight, just because their hair is 'not nice'? BULLCRAP.

/rant.

I have 2 biracial children. My son has hair that looks pretty much like yours. My daughter has a mix of hair...some 3a-3b sections...some 3-c-4a? But her hair is not as silky in texture as her brother's. My ex-mother-in-law would not shut up about how it was a "crying shame" that the "good hair" was wasted on a boy and how my daughter's hair was nappy and would need to be relaxed. She also got really upset with me because I let my daughters hair do its thing and be happy and would always send her back to me after weekend visits with her hair slicked to her scalp with vaseline. I had to have a talk with her and let her know that she would NOT be ruining my daughter's self esteem with her hair hang-ups, and that my daughters hair is beautiful.

I think a prejudice against type 4 hair is deeply ingrained in the black community in the US. When I was in school, the only kids who made fun of other kids for having "nappy" hair, or who even talked about good hair/black hair were other black kids. These same kids made fun of other black kids for being dark-skinned. While I think most people are way too quick to discount everything as racism, I actually think this problem is a lingering legacy of institutionalized racism of days gone by...where parents wanted their children to look more Caucasian to be more accepted. I think these self-perpetuating ideas are very harmful.

The ideas being pushed today are a more homogenous look for everyone, so both ends of the spectrum are told they are too extreme to be considered beautiful.

pepperminttea
June 28th, 2012, 05:02 AM
I love love love Black women's hair. Whether it's a natural afro or a beautiful braids or an electric pink weave, I'm always amazed at the versatility, creativity and variety. But, being a white girl, it's so hard to talk about it! Basically anything I say is going to have racial connotations, no one needs my approval. I don't want to seem 'othering' or exoticizing or something, so I usually don't say anything at all (even though I'm inwardly feeling like saying WOW!). I'm just so happy that natural textures are becoming common and acceptable in different spaces. It's awful when people say this look or that look is unprofessional, and expect women to change their natural hair texture to look closer to the Caucasian standard if they want to be considered beautiful or professional.
[Emphasis added.]


Yes, this! I think type 4 hair is amazing but I never know how to compliment someone on it without overstepping the line as a white English girl. I love seeing more natural hair (and body acceptance as a whole), but I wish there was some way of saying "Your hair is amazing and you rock it!" without there being the risk of some negative connotation or something.

Unicorn
June 28th, 2012, 04:33 PM
^^^^^^ this!!

When I saw "Good Hair", I was sad that many of the women interviewed felt their natural hair was undesirable. Children are being taught this, too. There was a 4 year old girl who had her hair relaxed during the movie. She said something along the lines of doing it because "you have to".
I just find this heartbreaking.


Of course, not everything is about aping Westerners, you're absolutely right about that.

I am speaking from the point of view of someone of South Asian descent. While India has some serious color problems that pre-date colonialism, British colonialism certainly exacerbated things.

Also, with the caste system there is a (really terrible) joke that when there is a light skinned person in a lower caste or a dark skinned person in an upper caste, someone's mother was getting frisky with someone who wasn't her husband. That pretty much indicates that the colorism isn't a matter of getting tan from manual labor and if we all huddled inside in luxury, we'd all be the same color. It indicates pretty clearly that is the idea that the caste system is broken along ethnic lines--even if that is completely false, the idea persists.

In that sense, skin lightening remains more of a racial/ethnic issue than not. The racial aspect is more pronounced in countries that had a strong colonial presence as can be seen in some Latin American and Caribbean countries.
My understanding of the the issue of lighter skin, in India/Pakistan, is that while the tanning gained by outdoor, manual labour is an issue that makes paler skin culturally desirable, paler skin being associated with higher caste, also has the implication of one's family being of 'higher' caste for generations, i.e. no 'lower' caste skeletons in the closet. The 'luxury' hue of paler skin has existed long enough for it to be a (rather loose) indicator of caste. Hence the 'jokes', so that aspect is about 'pedigree' rather than ethnicity.

As for the good/bad hair subject of the thread, I agree that unless you've lived it, you cannot really understand the impact. My hair is I assume 4 something or other, I've never cared enough to track down the definition. However, I didn't grow up with the belief that my hair was inherently ugly. I ache for anyone that has, but pretending to truly understand how they feel would be disingenuous. I


Unicorn

lacefrost
June 28th, 2012, 08:23 PM
Yes, this! I think type 4 hair is amazing but I never know how to compliment someone on it without overstepping the line as a white English girl. I love seeing more natural hair (and body acceptance as a whole), but I wish there was some way of saying "Your hair is amazing and you rock it!" without there being the risk of some negative connotation or something.

There is: You just say, "Your hair is amazing and you rock it!" There are no connotations in that. Everyone wants to hear that their hair is amazing and that they rock it, regardless of race, sex, country of origin, etc. Or you can just say, "I love your hair."

The only thing that drives hypercurlies crazy is when people say, "I love your hair, can I touch it?" and their hands are already in our hair as if we're animals in a petting zoo. And if I had a penny for everytime this happened. . .Rich I tell you, rich!

ETA: I do want to add that it also saddens me that people aren't giving other people compliments because of race. . .I know it's not something done out of racism. . . it just makes me sad. Basically a lot of black girls aren't getting compliments because they're black. That sucks. When I was first growing out my hair, I needed compliments cause I was getting a whole lot of flack from everyone for going curly. And to think that there were people not saying nice things to me when I needed them said, because I'm black and they were scared. . . I may be black and a woman but I'm a person first. . .To me this feels more othering than anything else. . .

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 09:44 AM
I never understood that, round my way there are a lot of Barbie doll weaves and bad relaxer damage, their own hair has to be better than that.

And you're right! Their own hair IS better than that.

I have never seen a bad or ugly head of hair that has been well cared for.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 09:47 AM
Sorry...

"...seriously peed me off." lawl e we I've never heard that said, or written before. Awesome.

Anyway... yeah, I know how that is, and I can see where it can be really annoying. My thing is to vent and then let it roll off my shoulders. I'm one of those people who will dwell a lot on something that bothers me (and I'm not saying that's what you're doing! I'm just saying this about me, is all ♥), so I really had to teach myself to let things go after they work me up.

I do agree, though, that a lot of black women don't tend to favor their own hair, which I think is sad. I love their hair! It's so shiny and textured in all kinds of different ways. It's very beautiful to me when I see a black woman take care of the hair they have, let it grow, and show off how awesome it is. But I guess to each his own; I can also understand if someone wants to alter their hair one way or another, but because they think their hair is ugly? Not so. I think it's better to learn how to have confidence in what nature already gave you before trying to supplement what you think you don't have. That way you're already comfortable with yourself, you've accepted all the imperfections and wonders of your own body. :D Just my take on it.

Haha, glad you like it :D

And, like you, I dwell on things. It's been a good few days since I posted this, and it's still been on my mind.

A lot of people think it's just about 'hair', but it's not. I am not black, but I am half, and believe me, in the black community, it's more than 'just hair'. When people will apply a chemical relaxer - something that can alter your hair for LIFE and give you chemical burns - to a child's hair, there's a problem.

Talk to any black woman, and a fair amount of them will tell you about the horrible things said to them about their hair by their own family members growing up. It's not talked about often, but it happens.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 09:49 AM
Sigh.

I think as a woman with brown skin and ANY hair type not in the 4s, you're going to hear this all your life. I have. It never goes away.

I've tried to have open and honest conversations with my black friends about why so many hate the gorgeous hair they have, and I just can't break through the huge cultural stigmatism they have against their own hair. I don't get it. They love their skin, they love their curves...but they hate their hair even though it's as strong a racial trait as any of the above.

There is no such thing as good or bad hair. There's sick and healthy hair. Beautiful styles and unfortunate styling choices.

If you know this and teach it to anyone impressionable that you meet, maybe things will change with time.

But yeah. It's very VERY frustrating.

I agree, and I am glad you commented, as I believe you can understand where I'm coming from. I have type 3 hair, but this is an issue that bothers me.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 09:51 AM
With all due respect, I find this statement to be just as judgmental as what your aunt said. :(

You're more than entitiled to feel that way, but I don't, and never have, favoured fake hair. It's just the way I feel. I was making a comment about the lady, not to her. My opinion does not affect her, seeing as she will not find out about it.

It's not her natural hair, so I don't see how making judgements about it is bad.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 09:53 AM
I don't give it much thought to tell you the truth. If anybody says anything about "bad" hair, I immediately chalk it up to personal preference. I have my personal preferences, too.

Saying a particular hair type is 'bad' is more than just a personal preference.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 09:57 AM
It's a matter of personal preference. Some people look at hair on that sort of gradient, others don't. Don't let it bother you because, in the end, you can only control what YOU do and say. Life is too short to get all hacked off over this.

It's all very well and good to say 'don't let it bother you' and other such platitudes, but it does bother me.

In society, and particularly in black society, it is more than just hair.

When children as young as 3 are getting chemical relaxer dumped on their head and getting told their hair is 'nappy', it is a problem!

And, the way I see it, when people think dry, broken, short (from breakage, not styling) and stiff relaxed hair, or fake weaves/wigs that don't even pretend to look authentic, looks better than natural hair, I think that is a problem. A self esteem one. I care about the self esteem of people. And I like to examine why women think unhealthy hair or fake-looking weave looks nicer, simply because it is straight/looser.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 09:58 AM
I don't think it is wrong for a black women to want to change her hair if she really wants to.

But I do think it is horrible that black women are made to feel that their natural hair texture is somehow bad or wrong and that they MUST change it to be accepted. I would love to see more women who are comfortable with their natural hair and that appreciate what they have. I do agree that people need to stop saying that certain hair is bad or good because that only puts people down and makes them insecure :blossom:

I don't single out black women. Personally, I don't really like dying or any other permanant altering of the hair, but that doesn't mean I think black women should not change their hair.

But like I said, there's an issue that runs deeper than appearence.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:04 AM
I don't think relaxing your hair is any worse than dying it, straightening it, ...
It's not good for it, but a lot of people do it because they like the results. I really like naturally curlies, though. But I think relaxed hair can be very pretty too. It's nothing more than a personal preference.

Relaxing and flat ironing are not in the same category. One is permanant and damaging, one is temporary, and is not nearly as damaging if done correctly and infrequently.

Relaxer and dying are in the same ball park in my eyes, in terms of damage. Hence why I'd never do either.

But relaxing is often done for a different reason than dying. In this instance, I would suggest doing some research on the issue. Talk to black women who went natural.

But you're not getting the point. In my OP, I mentioned the good hair - bad hair mindset. It's not about 'personal preference'. My own Auntie said to me that it's 'easier for me because I have nice hair'.

"It's nothing more than a personal preference." - No. It is more than personal preference. When people believe their hair is 'too nappy' to go natural, or they'll keep going back to relaxer after their scalp has been burnt and they have hair falling out, simply because they feel self conscious and 'messy' with natural hair, it is more than 'personal preference'.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:05 AM
If they don't have straight hair naturally, and it would make them happy if they had it, they should get it. Its their hair, their appearance. If they want to kill their hair, if it makes them happy, let them. If they want to baby their hair and take really good care of it because it makes them happy, let them.
But saying her fake hair 'ruined' it for you, is kinda just as bad as do what your aunt did. In the end it doesn't matter what you or your aunt or what anyone thinks. If you like it and you're happy, why do you need someone elses approval.
But I do agree with you on the note that 'good hair' vs 'bad hair' isn't fair.

People can do what they want. I can have an opinion. That is the beauty of the world.

In regards to me saying her fake her ruined it for me; see above.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:14 AM
Ever see Chris Rock's movie "Good Hair"? It's all about this.

I think the whole "good hair/bad hair" thing goes FAR beyond personal preference. This is internalized racism at its finest. The worst part is, women of color perpetuate this just as much as anyone else. It's like women who perpetuate sexism. For many women of color, not relaxing hair is equal to not shaving one's legs. It's a "choice," yes, but it's not *really* a choice everyone is free to make. The idea that hair can be "too black" is just awful (yes, I have heard people use this wording). Not only are white skin and features the ideal, but white people hair that flows in the wind is somehow "better" than type 4 halo or mane hair. I think the extremes are all beautiful in their own ways!

So yeah, to the people who say it's nothing more than personal preference, there are actually entire fields of sociology dedicated to studying how racism presents itself in this way. The idea that women of color have to chemically treat themselves to be "good" or even remotely acceptable is far more complex than individual preference :(

And OP, I'm sorry that somehow your aunt acted like your opinion on natural hair is lessened by having "good" hair. That's just not fair.

Yes, I've heard of it. Not seen it yet. I don't like Chris Rock very much. I find him offensive.

And thank you for your input! I was aware that posting on a topic like this on a predominately white board wasn't going to exactly earn me understanding, but you *get* it perfectly. There is an issue. I don't blame any particular group for the issue, but it's still there, and still important. It's all very well and good to say "it's their choice!" for fear of rocking the boat, but that does people of colour no good, nor does it help those little 3 year olds getting their hair relaxed and having no say in the matter.

And thank you. I was very annoyed about that too, but unfortunately, it isn't an attitude I'm not used to. I am often made to feel I can't speak on certain issues because I am not 'black enough', or in this instance, 'not curly enough'.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:17 AM
I don't really think my cousin relaxing her 4b curls to be any different to me bleaching and dying mine. It's preference. :shrug:

I do think society is a little harsh on women with natural afro type hair. I read an awesome article recently with Thandie Newton saying how she had always straightened and styled her "nappy" hair to be more Hollywood, but was starting to wear her natural texture to encourage her daughters to as well. It also featured Solange Knowles who refuses to do the Beyonce thing and wear a weave/wig. And they both looked stunning.

Do you bleach and dye your hair because you believe your natural hair is disgusting, not acceptable and you won't be taken seriously because of it?

Have you grown up being told that your natural hair colour is disgusting, messy and unprofessional?

Are you willing to get burnt by the chemicals you apply, have your hair breaking off in chunks and have short hair, even though you'd love long hair, simply because you could not stand to go natural?

If no, then, no, dying is not the same.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:18 AM
I think it depends on where the preference comes from. If she was made to believe her natural hair was okay and she decided out of her own will to relax her hair... then yes, it is a preference.

If she was brainwashed to believe her hair was horrible and ugly unless she relaxed it, then it's not entirely a preference.

^^^^ this.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:20 AM
THIS.... I completely agree. I don't like how there are some many negative messages about this hair texture.

I was in a store recently and saw a advertisement for a product that relaxed young girls' hair. I was shocked. The girl knows barely anything about styling her hair at 7, and her guardians are going to relax it. Perhaps it would be for convenience, I don't know.

Personally, I think that it is easier to work with your body/genetics than against it. I do think that natural kinky, curly hair is very pretty. My dad told me something when I was a teenager, "what you were born with looks best on you." I'm sure that could be up for debate; it's a matter of taste. For me, it has proven true. And for many cases, fake hair does look fake to me.

Sadly, yes, they do make 'kiddie perms', and just like 'no lye' relaxers, they're just as damaging :(

I can not EVER condone people who apply chemicals to their children's hair. I do not agree with flat ironing a child's hair either. Or doing anything damaging to it. If they choose to damage their hair when they're older, so be it, but until then, look after it for them.

And I believe this too. Hence why I don't wear make up, and keep my hair natural. I like the natural look, very much, and there's nothing wrong with that.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:22 AM
I have a close friend who is half black and is convinced that her natural hair is ugly. She flat irons it almost daily and her hair is extremely damaged from all of the harsh chemicals that she puts on it. She insists that her hair isn't damaged but you can see so many split ends and breakage.
I remember one time she let it go natural one summer and it almost got to BSL. It was so pretty. But she insists that her natural hair is ugly and she would rather get it relaxed and have it flat ironed.

Le sigh.

I'm sighing right along with you :(

It's like my Auntie, she has such beautiful 3a curls when she lets it air dry, but she won't do it without mousse, because she doesn't like the way it looks. Then she leaves the mousse in for days, and complains that her scalp itches. And she dyes her hair all the time, and it's all pourous and frazzled looking. Sigh, she used to have such beautiful hair.

I just wish people would understand that their hair looks gorgeous, in its natural state and HEALTHY.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:24 AM
I agree. I think it's horrible. Not just for the sake of hair but generally where appearance is concerned. I think our socioty is beginning to move in the direction of "natural" / "healthy" is beautiful.. but it's a long way off and there are still so many ingrained stigma's ...be it curly hair, gray hair, light skin, dark skin... people are going to find way's to be hateful.... And alot of the time people dont even REALIZE they're being hateful...

I can understand your anger.. but maybe you could try to use this as an oppertunity to talk to your aunt and maybe help her find a new perspective...

It may work.. It may not work....

just my own little story....

My whole life I was treated as if I have stright hair... my whole life I have struggeled to keep my hair from sticking up in random palces, frizzing up on top... wondering why it turns into a poof ball when i blow dry it.... etc etc....

Then I joined LHC and learned about hair typing... my hair is not truely "stright" ...I personally was excited to learn this because I always wanted wavy / curly hair.... Maybe somewhere in my heart deep down I just instintively new I wasnt really stright...

So here I am just litterally days into my new knowledge and this woman who works at Ulta is all but rolling her eyes at me because I want to ENCURAGE the curl... She says to me, "You dont need this stuff. What you need is some moose and a round brush."

I thought to myself, Lady I've been round brushing my hair for decades just to MAKE IT behave. I'm tired of trying to put my hair into a shape it wasnt ment to have because socioty thinks i'm "prettier" that way....

I'm probably abit strong minded about this because I'm like a "born again" on hair. I want to learn to care for MY hair properly.. not the way I'm told I should be but in such a way that benifits and makes beautiful my hair as it should be naturally

I really, really, really agree with you, hun. And I def think that it's an issue that extends beyond race and relaxer.

As a whole, in this soceity, we're encouraged to cover things up with fakery instead of embracing what we naturally have and making the best of it.

Almost everyone I know in real life, black, white or otherwise, doesn't look after their hair properly. It's ignorance. I was the same.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:27 AM
I don't mean to offend but what do you think of braids and dreadlocks? Do you think people adopt those styles because they dislike their natural texture? I think these are beautiful and healthy hair styles.

I feel that no one should be criticized for their hair choices, whether they go along with societal norms or not. But I get where you're coming from, it is infuriating to be told that your hair is not "okay" because it's too big/textured/whatever. I just don't bother arguing with anyone anymore about my personal decision to leave my hair natural. It's so hard to get ignorant people to see any other way.

Braids as in extenstions? Don't really care for them. I don't really like fake hair.

Dreads? Love them. It's ones natural hair, of course. It grew from their head.

But more so, the issue and where I'm coming from is not about the fake hair. That's a seperate issue - the issue is what my Auntie said to me.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:29 AM
Geez, that's so mean. And stupid. :confused: I love my hair; if anything, I'd want it to be curlier! Why should curly have to mean messy? Just because it's not sleek and straight doesn't mean it's messy. Straight, wavy, and curly hair are all gorgeous if they're healthy... *sigh* Yeah, I don't get the good hair/bad hair mentality either.

I know, right? But even with me, I love my curls, but if I'm at work and my hair is frizzy, I feel really self conscious. I feel like non-curlies are judging me and thinking 'that's why curly hair is horrible'. Irrational, I know :/

I do feel like I am treated better when my hair is straightened. It might be that I also look more racially ambiguous when straightened. But I do get lots of compliments on my curls, also.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:30 AM
Even women who are not black, but with curly hair, experience this....Since I quit the relaxers, I've had people ask me "Have you forgotten to brush your hair today?" and also gotten this lovely comment (from a lady with 1a/1b hair): "I've always felt sorry for people with curly hair...they always look so messy!"

Yes, I look like a lion with my curly roots and straight ends...but I love the way my hair stands up!

My hair is nowhere near a 4 texture...but the prejudice against curl is still there.

That's horrible :steam:

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:33 AM
OP, I agree with you that natural hair is much more beautiful but that is just an opinion too. Some women may like the look of relaxed hair or weaves. Though some women like it because they really like it and some women prefer to keep their hair that way because they are more likely to get a job or it's better for them in certain social interactions (which I think is terrible and wrong but if they feel that's what they need to do to put food on the table, how can I blame them?)

As for no one believing brown girls who don't have 4 hair: it is kind of true that you will never really understand the stigma of 4 hair. I feel it's like when a beautiful Pakistani friend of mine wrote a long rant/blog post about skin lightening creams in Asia and encouraged/admonished brown Asians to love their skin color. It's a noble thought but with her creamy white skin she will never understand what it's like to be a dark woman in a culture that despises darkness in women. Know what I mean?

I totally understand where you're coming from.

But in regards to my OP. My Auntie is white, not black. So it's not an issue of her having type 4 hair and feeling I don't 'get it'. It's just her regurgitating the same **** society has fed all of us.

And I was just so annoyed, because I talk to her about natural hair all the time. And I love my hair, and I know it's nice, but I don't need to be told that my hair is nicer than type 4 hair, or 'easier'.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:33 AM
Before hhj I wore braids as a hairstyle. I now use braids (without added hair) more of a function to grow my hair because braids help with my retention. For example I can wash and condition in braids as much as I want and not be stressed out because braids keeps my hair from getting tangles. My hair never reached my shoulder until I learned how to gently manage it.

Yeah, I love braids when they're done with ones own hair. I am thinking of doing mini twists on mine. I need to PS more :cheese:

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:35 AM
It's getting hard to tell what hair is natural anymore. I thought Jennifer Lopez's hair was beautiful until someone said it was all extensions and photoshop. In movies so much of the hair is really wigs. I don't think I've seen natural Black hair in years, and then yesterday there was a clip of Maya Anjelou and there was natural hair! It was really beautiful to see really, salt and pepper small/medium afro. It's hard enough to accept and love ourselves and its just about impossible when society is against you too.

I know, right?

It annoys me more than celebrities are rarely natural. Celebrities are role models for so many people, and they are people too, so they're not obligated, but it'd be nice if they were all natural.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:35 AM
My aide, who is black, relaxes her hair. I sometimes want to say something, but I know that as I am not a woman of color, it's problematic for me to say anything. I kind of wish I could, because I think she could rock natural hair. But it's her hair, and in a way me saying anything is reinforcing the racial issues, because it'd be a white woman telling a black woman what she should do with her hair.

I totally understand where you're coming from, and I do certainly agree that there is an issue there.

Look, even me, as someone who is half black, I feel like I 'can't tell a black woman what to do with her hair'.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:37 AM
I agree its a personal preference as to what we consider good hair. I think in general healthy hair is good.

In the black community - good hair/bad hair isn't preference.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:38 AM
Very True. It is hard to believe someone who doesn't understand your particular issue. But I do believe that a lot of people have suffered being looked down upon for something in their lives, whether it be weight, body type, acne, skin color, hair texture, etc. So most people can relate to the feeling of not being accepted for something about themselves. So atleast the feeling is something other people can relate to!

I agree :)

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 10:39 AM
Perhaps this is a bit simplistic but, I see it the way I see makeup.

If you like to relax/straighten your hair because you want a particular style and you just happen to like it, great. I like wearing winged black eye-liner because I like the retro look.

If you think that you're ugly/unprofessional/any combination of horrible things if you don't have straight or relaxed hair, then that's problematic. If I can't even go to work as a woman without makeup (and it's not a looks-based job) then Houston we have a problem.

There's a difference in approaching grooming with joy and approaching grooming with fear.

Then there is a disquieting racial aspect to it all that makes it different. I guarantee no one would give some sort of blase excuse of "it's just preference" when regarding skin bleaching within darker skinned cultures.


^^^!!!!!!!

Perfectly put.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:03 AM
While I think pin straight hair is beautiful, super curly hair is so cool. I always see woman with super tight curly hair that almost sticks straight up it is so thick and think wow thats beautiful.... Whether they are black woman or super pale woman, it all looks so unique to me, and isnt something I see much, which I think makes it more special. I do think woman should feel comfortable in their own skin, but I dont feel like my hair looks amazing so I understand where those woman are coming from. Plus someone with that curly of hair I would imagine its a little more work to take care of it then someone with straight hair. Maybe people with curly hair straighten it because its just easier to manage, or they have never got taught how to style their hair growing up. I think our perception of beauty makes woman do a lot of things. We all fall into cultural pressures, people in other countries wear their hair completely different than we do, its because thats the norm there, or wear different kinds of makeup than we do, only wear skirts, etc.. We all dress and wear our hair how we feel is acceptable to those around us, the difference is that we have such a wider range of normal than other cultures. If a woman that has super curly hair is around a bunch of other curly haired woman who all straighten theirs it might be hard to not go with the crowd!

"Maybe people with curly hair straighten it because its just easier to manage" - it's this sort of mentality that leads people with curly hair to feel bad about their hair. My hair is curly. Very curly. It's not hard to manage. Managability is subjective.

KittyPTY
July 3rd, 2012, 11:03 AM
I'ts so sad... i was at a job interview and the interviewer looked at me with rejection once he saw me... and keept looking at my hair with that expression... i knew they wouldn't ever call me ... Here i even saw on the newspaper (beauty section) that curly hair was seen as "informal", that shouldn't be like that.

Panama is a multiracial country, there is the people from the shires (natives) and they have hair type 1, and we have a lot of african descendants, we have asian communities... i think here you can see daily the whole hair types in a single building... or house for example mine.. my mom is type 1, my big sis is type 2a, my other sis is type 2b im type 3 my dad is type 4. lol!

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:05 AM
I think a person should do what they please, to please themselves. It isn't like relaxing, or not relaxing, or bleaching or dying or oiling or not is going to hurt anyone besides themselves.

I saw a girl with a legit Afro it was AWESOME and I told her so. She seemed kind of surprised and just said "really?" before kind of wandering off. I felt kind of bad that she thought her hair was that bad, or that people didn't like it. Maybe she thought she was having a bad hair day. I feel bad when girls are brought up to do things just because society says so.

Even wearing a bra, girls are trained to wear these because it's the right thing to do, and none of us really question it. Maybe some girls don't wear bras (such as in other cultures) and they could then have the option to start if they'd like. Lots of things in life are like this for boys and girls, but it doesn't make it "good" or "bad" or pretty or ugly or whatever.

My husband had long hair (like lower back long) and when he'd go to apply people would ask if he was going to cut his hair. He usually grew it out to donate, and had no qualms saying so. It usually got people off his back. It's short now, because he wants it that way, and that's ok too.

I guess I'm pretty "laissez faire" about life.

"It isn't like relaxing is going to hurt anyone besides themselves. "

It is going to hurt someone besides themselves when they believe that natural hair is disgusting and therefore, tell their child natural hair is ugly and relax their child's hair.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:06 AM
I'ts so sad... i was at a job interview and the interviewer looked at me with rejection once he saw me... and keept looking at my hair with that expression... i knew they wouldn't ever call me ... Here i even saw on the newspaper (beauty section) that curly hair was seen as "informal", that shouldn't be like that.


I'm really sorry to hear that :(

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:09 AM
I think wearing 4 type hair natural is gaining favour amongst african women in my area, I've seen a couple of beautifully cared for 4b ish manes around, as well as lots of pretty braided protective styles. I think it looks really stunning worn lose and big and natural, but I don't envy how much work it must be to keep it looking nice like that!

This is quite offensive. I wish people would stop referring to type 3 and 4 hair as 'work'.

tohavelongcurls
July 3rd, 2012, 11:10 AM
This is such an important post. I agree completely that it goes way beyond personal preference. If you are constantly told that your natural hair is bad, then you start to internalize that and it can easily turn to self loathing. This message is intensified when coupled with racism, like it is with the 'good hair/bad hair' mentality. And since hair is so personal, the harmful message is easily internalized and can be interpreted as a personal criticism, one that provides ammunition for self hatred, rather than a problem on a societal level.

Thankfully I don't have to deal with the racism aspect of hair hatred, but I experience enough people telling me to straighten my hair, etc..., and I'm a 3. I couldn't imagine how much more I would get if I were a 4. And with me, my mother has told me my entire life that my hair was beautiful, that curly hair was beautiful, and that acts as a cushion for me. It shields me from society's messages that my hair type is 'messy', that I'm somehow innocent and sheltered because I have curly hair. Many 4 girls don't have that, especially if their parents relax their hair when they're children. I know my friend M has received considerable flack for going natural. I think her mother even resisted at first, if I'm remembering correctly. But she wanted to be able to take care of her hair herself, to be able to wash, style and go. That was her motivation for going natural, and it looks beautiful on her.

Sorry for rambling, but I think this is such an important post.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:10 AM
I asked. She's worm her hair natural or in twist most of her life but has been relaxing it for a few years now and said she "fancied a change" but then a have a very multicultural community here in the UK so natural hair is pretty common.

I am from the UK. I don't see much natural hair here. It is a novelty when I see it.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:10 AM
It is true that everyone should be allowed their own preference, just as long as those preferences don't involve some type of physical, emotional, or psychological harm to themselves or anyone else. But the reasons behind a given preference are not always founded upon simple "choice". That's when you can't be sure if its actually a preference anymore.

Imagine a woman with type 4 hair who would love to wear her hair natural, and would not even bother with relaxers and/or weaves if she had her way. But, also imagine this same woman always hearing from her girlfriends and family members whether through subtle hints or even blatant verbal disrespect (like OP's Auntie) why its more "acceptable", why she should NOT even consider nuturing what she has naturally. More reasons why she must cover it up with something else rather than proudly display it. No support.

People like Auntie: "Some people don't have nice hair..."
Person with hair she's referring to: "Like me..."

And psychological damage ensues from there. It doesn't help that the media keeps trying to cram messages that say women MUST be pretty down our throats, even if we ourselves don't feel that way.

I read all the time from other members about how their decisions to grow their hair long have been challenged by everyone from mothers to siblings to friends, and so on and so forth. Evidently, their resolve to grow their hair long anyway was stronger than what their family and friends had to say, but not everyone is as confident in their personal decisions and what they know they want to do. Some are lucky, and do enjoy the limited options presented to them by their family and peers, but some do not, and that's when it becomes a problem.

Now imagine a woman with a similar hairtype who is comfortable with her hair, and so are most of the people she knows. As far as she and everyone else is concerned, she could go anyway she wants, and it would be alright. Whatever she decides to do with her hair is based on her preference, and she is not being forcibly "nudged" into a specific direction. More than just one option is wide open to her. If she relaxes her texture or wears other hair, it really is her choice. If she wears braids, pretty cornrow designs, or and afro, that's still actually her choice too, uninfluenced by anyone or anything other than what would make her happiest. If she decides to relax a small section in front and wear it tied like a unicorn horn in the middle of a hat shaped afro, still her choice, and respected as her choice, even if the ones she know wouldn't do that themselves. This is a very special kind of flexibility that is not granted to everyone, and that is tragic.

Things good and bad are passed down through generations. In a world where both men and women of any background can be bosses, scientisists, and inventors, you would wonder how there can still be sexists/racists/descrimination against them, but there is. And it only continues when there are people like OP's aunt who perpetuate such poisonous ideas. I would not call what she said a mere matter of "preference". Do you think someone with the hairtype Auntie was discrediting would hear her words as just simple preference, or something more hurtful? What if that athlete on TV could hear their conversation? How do you think that would affect her feelings, hearing that her hair isn't nice. Imagine hearing that from your friends and loved ones everyday of your life. If your resolve were not strong, what do you think you would eventually do for accpetance, or for nothing else other than shutting them up?

It is a treasured ability to make your own decisions for your own body according to what you really want. The key phrase being what you really want. Is someone's preference based on what they really want? Not always, and it can be very hard to tell unless you know their personal history.

I realize I've said alot here about this matter, but hearing what OP said about her Aunt reminded me of what a close family member of mine said when we were out one day. A lady with long, full, 4 hair was standing on a corner a few feet from us. This family member said: "At least your hair blows in the wind, not like that $%#* over there" I sincerley hope that lady didn't hear her.

:'(.

You, my dear, are my new favourite person. Thank you SO MUCH for your post.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:11 AM
Yup. I live in Atlanta so I see a lot of this. For the women who don't want to go curly, that's fine. It just breaks my heart when women talk about wanting to but not being able to.

I have managed to encourage a lot of women to go natural. Simply because I have the hair their mother warned them about. My hair is the definition of "bad hair." It's coarse, incredibly thick, with curls the size of coffee stirrers. It does not clump. It does not lay down. It's natural shape is an afro. I have "bad hair". . .and everyone loves it. So I tell them that if I can have bad hair and they love it, no reason not to go natural. (shrugs)

I mean, don't get me wrong. Sometimes I'm a bit sad. I see all those youtube videos where girls put their hair in puffs and it lays down and explodes in girls in the back. . .I see the videos where girls do wash and gos and it's beautiful. . . And these are all 3c/4a types. My hair just doesn't do that.

I think part of the beauty of going natural, whether in curl type or hair color, is embracing your body totally.

You, you, you are an inpiration. I showed my cousin's gf your hair the other day, simply because it's so amazing :)

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:13 AM
This is such an important post. I agree completely that it goes way beyond personal preference. If you are constantly told that your natural hair is bad, then you start to internalize that and it can easily turn to self loathing. This message is intensified when coupled with racism, like it is with the 'good hair/bad hair' mentality. And since hair is so personal, the harmful message is easily internalized and can be interpreted as a personal criticism, one that provides ammunition for self hatred, rather than a problem on a societal level.

Thankfully I don't have to deal with the racism aspect of hair hatred, but I experience enough people telling me to straighten my hair, etc..., and I'm a 3. I couldn't imagine how much more I would get if I were a 4. And with me, my mother has told me my entire life that my hair was beautiful, that curly hair was beautiful, and that acts as a cushion for me. It shields me from society's messages that my hair type is 'messy', that I'm somehow innocent and sheltered because I have curly hair. Many 4 girls don't have that, especially if their parents relax their hair when they're children. I know my friend M has received considerable flack for going natural. I think her mother even resisted at first, if I'm remembering correctly. But she wanted to be able to take care of her hair herself, to be able to wash, style and go. That was her motivation for going natural, and it looks beautiful on her.

Sorry for rambling, but I think this is such an important post.

Thank you so much for your input.

And we both have the same hair type :cheese:

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:14 AM
I love love love Black women's hair. Whether it's a natural afro or a beautiful braids or an electric pink weave, I'm always amazed at the versatility, creativity and variety. But, being a white girl, it's so hard to talk about it! Basically anything I say is going to have racial connotations, no one needs my approval. I don't want to seem 'othering' or exoticizing or something, so I usually don't say anything at all (even though I'm inwardly feeling like saying WOW!). I'm just so happy that natural textures are becoming common and acceptable in different spaces. It's awful when people say this look or that look is unprofessional, and expect women to change their natural hair texture to look closer to the Caucasian standard if they want to be considered beautiful or professional.


I totally agree.

I also feel that way sometimes.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:21 AM
I have 2 biracial children. My son has hair that looks pretty much like yours. My daughter has a mix of hair...some 3a-3b sections...some 3-c-4a? But her hair is not as silky in texture as her brother's. My ex-mother-in-law would not shut up about how it was a "crying shame" that the "good hair" was wasted on a boy and how my daughter's hair was nappy and would need to be relaxed. She also got really upset with me because I let my daughters hair do its thing and be happy and would always send her back to me after weekend visits with her hair slicked to her scalp with vaseline. I had to have a talk with her and let her know that she would NOT be ruining my daughter's self esteem with her hair hang-ups, and that my daughters hair is beautiful.

I think a prejudice against type 4 hair is deeply ingrained in the black community in the US. When I was in school, the only kids who made fun of other kids for having "nappy" hair, or who even talked about good hair/black hair were other black kids. These same kids made fun of other black kids for being dark-skinned. While I think most people are way too quick to discount everything as racism, I actually think this problem is a lingering legacy of institutionalized racism of days gone by...where parents wanted their children to look more Caucasian to be more accepted. I think these self-perpetuating ideas are very harmful.

The ideas being pushed today are a more homogenous look for everyone, so both ends of the spectrum are told they are too extreme to be considered beautiful.

This makes me angry.

But I am very glad you stood by your daughter and didn't let your ex's MIL get to you.

In regards to blacks pulling down other blacks, this has been my experience too. It's something that I believe is prevelant in the black community. Many naturals will tell you that they got more negativity from blacks than whites in regards to their hair.

CurlyCurves
July 3rd, 2012, 11:21 AM
I grew up (as a white girl ) in the carribeans, and we had a big prevention thing going on at school about just this. The first year of high school , we were regularly shown movies about slavery and studied the cultural impact it had had on the way people judged their own skins and hair. The stories that really drove the point into our brains were the ones describing how, when a slave had a baby with some white guy, she would be desperate to have it come out as white looking as possible so that he/she might grow up to be free. It's not something that can disappear from a culture in just a few generations , it used to be a survival thing, it's deeply rooted ....
Being white , those movies and stories made me deeply self conscious about my own hair, and I wore it in corn row braids for a year after that , trying to pass for a very clear skinned metis I suppose ^^ But it was liberating for a lot of my friends. Fake hair and straightened hair were looked down upon and natural was embraced . We had good teachers :)

Thank you for sharing your experience.

ratgirldjh
July 3rd, 2012, 11:27 AM
My family is sort of like this too.

All my brothers go bald in their 30's and my sisters have bleached, and fried their hair to the point where it is thin and lifeless. So they see my hair and tell me you are lucky you got the 'good' hair gene!!!

Weird, because we all started with pretty much the same hair! They have just killed theirs!!!

One of my sisters has finally succumbed to benign neglect and her hair looks better than it has in years! Same thing with my mom.

My other 2 sisters persist in coloring, bleaching, and using tons of products which makes their hair end up looking sort of like flat, lifeless, barbie doll hair!

They ask me what I do to keep my hair not looking so limp and when I tell them they just can't wrap their heads around it and just chalk it up to me being weird and having 'good' hair and go on with their hair killing ways.

Funny thing is I am way older than all of them and my hair looks way younger than theirs. Not to mention I look younger all over because I don't overeat, and put junk food into my body... grrr

Whatever. I have decided it is none of my business I ignore then now and I suggest you do the same with your aunt. You can never change another person and what they think is really their problem not yours. :D

I love natural black hair and I am fascinated by kinky, curly coils. I once had a friend with natural black hair and she would braid my hair for me and show me how she cared for her hair and that was one of the things that got me coming to this forum!!!

HappyHair87
July 3rd, 2012, 12:11 PM
Even women who are not black, but with curly hair, experience this....Since I quit the relaxers, I've had people ask me "Have you forgotten to brush your hair today?" and also gotten this lovely comment (from a lady with 1a/1b hair): "I've always felt sorry for people with curly hair...they always look so messy!"

Yes, I look like a lion with my curly roots and straight ends...but I love the way my hair stands up!

My hair is nowhere near a 4 texture...but the prejudice against curl is still there.

I'm glad you said this! I did not learn that statement until i joined both this forum and another forum geared towards curly hair. I always thought it was a "black thing"...but no...its really for whoever has a kink or curl anywhere in their hair.

I work with someone who has a child, she herself is white and the dad is black...the child has some BEAUTIFUL gorgeous 4a hair!!! And its that dirty blonde color that most black ppl with naturally blonde hair have...omg! :heartbeat

So the lady (she's my supervisor) asks me all the time about my hair and how do i care for it and how do i get it like this and like that...so i share. But to hear how she makes it seem like her daughter's hair is such a problem and she even said one time that her daughter has her father's "bad hair"...i just stared blankly at her when she said that. I chalk it up to sheer ignorance.

She thought her child's hair would come out looser in texture bc she herself has pin straight blonde hair. She even said to me the other day that other Black women ask me about my hair bc they are jealous....i told her..."no that's not the case...a LOT of Black women are going natural now and our race is really JUST LEARNING about how to take care of our hair in it's natural state. You may see a lot of weaves...but a lot of Black women are transitioning under their weaves to become natural. So they do come up and ask me questions."

She was even shocked to learn that all i use is Tresemme and gel on my hair everyday!

Since joining different forums i have come to find that hair is hair!!! So its even more dumb to me that there are "ethnic hair care" sections in stores:justy:

You either learn to care for it or you just don't. I wish i knew exactly where this thing about straight hair being the best hair came from because even on here...i don't see too many ppl with pin straight hair. Some ppl on here have 1a in their details and i can see a wave in it:D And why have Black ppl been made to assimilate to look more "white" by straightening our hair...when a majority of White ppl have curly hair themselves?!!

UGH!!! My brain!:laugh:

pepperminttea
July 3rd, 2012, 12:20 PM
CurlyCurves, you might find this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=43281) about the multi-quote button useful. :)


There is: You just say, "Your hair is amazing and you rock it!" There are no connotations in that. Everyone wants to hear that their hair is amazing and that they rock it, regardless of race, sex, country of origin, etc. Or you can just say, "I love your hair."

The only thing that drives hypercurlies crazy is when people say, "I love your hair, can I touch it?" and their hands are already in our hair as if we're animals in a petting zoo. And if I had a penny for everytime this happened. . .Rich I tell you, rich!

ETA: I do want to add that it also saddens me that people aren't giving other people compliments because of race. . .I know it's not something done out of racism. . . it just makes me sad. Basically a lot of black girls aren't getting compliments because they're black. That sucks. When I was first growing out my hair, I needed compliments cause I was getting a whole lot of flack from everyone for going curly. And to think that there were people not saying nice things to me when I needed them said, because I'm black and they were scared. . . I may be black and a woman but I'm a person first. . .To me this feels more othering than anything else. . .

I'm sorry Lacefrost, I didn't mean to make you feel 'other'. :( I just want to do the right thing but it's not as straight-forward as it seems. I'm not a touchy-feely person with people I don't know though, so suffice to say I won't be putting my hands uninvited into a stranger's hair, whatever their hairtype; but I will make an effort to compliment the curly girls I know in real life more. :)

For what it's worth, your hair truly is amazing. I admire it in your sig and avatar every time I see you post. :flower:

Katze
July 3rd, 2012, 12:28 PM
from the other end of the 'bad hair spectrum' ( All my life I have been told my hair won't grow long because it's 'thin' - 3 inch pony circumference isn't thin! And, 'oh, but it was so pretty when you were a kid,' pretty meaning naturally blonde) I think it is good to talk about this stuff.

I had a black roommate who I am still friends with and she had just gone natural, had had dreads started, then cared for them herself. Lovely lovely hair, definitely 4 type, and I was so interested in her haircare routine. She descibed for me what she did (vinegar rinses, shea butter, I forget what else) and let me watch her twist her dreads. :D It was really enlightening, especially since I was only starting to learn at the time about MY hair and how it also doesn't fit what hair is supposed to do, how it's supposed to fall, hang, etc.

This friend, C., had started to look for work again with her hair natural and got put down by other black women! Outrageous! I was shocked and amazed when she told me this, also how her mom had always favored her lighter-skinned, wavier-haired brother who sounded like a real loser, over her because she was 'dark and nappy.'

It is totally about racism, as are many beauty standards. To me this one is particularly unfair because it is so often women against women, which is really sad.

HappyHair87
July 3rd, 2012, 01:01 PM
You know what...im actually glad this thread was started because:

Being black...when you have looser curls like me...there are women out there (esp Black..sad but true) that say things that make you feel uncomfortable. (Like with OP's aunt) The majority of my hair really is mostly 3b/3c. My 4a is my nape and right above my ears.

Online...i feel sometimes i have to make sure i have to add in that i have some 4a hair. There is this attitude that if you're a light skinned black woman with loose curls that you must think you are all of that and a Starbucks cup! Or that you think you're White. Because all you have to do is put some gel in and go...and that is waaaaaaaaay far from the truth!

Sometimes i feel like i'm not being "Black" enough and both of my parents are Black AND i am currently living in the hood i grew up in! When i was transitioning i was hoping that i would have tight curls all around my head...but that didn't happen -____-. So yeah...being a Type 4 is notoriously hard to be...but being a type 3 in a predominantly Type 4 world can be just as exhausting...

Its like you're being put on a pedestal you don't wanna be on just because you have these freakin ringlets. And ppl will say things that just make you feel like O____o??!

I found a poem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGoFmCTLtog) on Youtube the other day and i was like WOW somebody feels like me!!! I have days where i just want to shake and swing my hair in the wind because i do love my hair! But i feel like i can't in my environment bc it would be taken as "She thinks she's cute". But a woman with 4a/4b hair in a fierce style is considered "edgy" and she's just fine with flaunting it. *sigh* I told my friend the other day i wish i had "real Black folks hair"...bc i get tired of all the questions about my race...everyday it never ends! Some people INSIST that i am half White! My response is now simply "if that helps you sleep at nite...then so be it" I wish i could do the fierce 4a/4b styles and wear a microphone afro...but my hair doesn't do that. I can barely get my hair to stay in twists. My hair requires water pretty much everyday to be happy and i have to make sure its frequently detangled.

Sometimes i just go against what i'm feeling and will at least just sit there and twirl a curl around my finger. I am just learning that this is my natural texture after being relaxed for almost all my life! And it is amusing to me...i just wish i could fully enjoy it. Ppl STARE at me everytime i get on the bus (in a Black neighborhood)...sometimes i wanna scream: "What?!! Have you never seen a Black woman with curly hair???!!!"

It just brings back the bad memories of 5th grade when i went to my first all black school and the kids made fun of me bc i was light skinned and i had "long" hair. That kind of thing sticks with a person for life.

Unicorn
July 3rd, 2012, 03:21 PM
I am from the UK. I don't see much natural hair here. It is a novelty when I see it.
I'm surprised to learn that you're from the UK. The things you're saying I've generally heard from AAs rather than Black Brits. I was astonished when I learned only a few years ago (around the time I joined LHC) that so many AAs had such big issues with their hair\

I grew up in the UK and have had a very different experience. While aware of good/bad hair comments, it was in line with tall/short, fat/thin quiet/loud comments. But I really didn't come across the it to the level of seriousness you've stated.

When I did relax my hair, it was simply something new to try, "coming of age" experiments that also took in colouring and different cuts along the way. I didn't experience the burns and trauma that I've read about on the net. Only once did I have damaged hair that broke off. (an apprentice hair dresser) But the slightest stinging, for me, meant something had gone wrong and the whole lot was washed off.

I don't think you can assume that all black women have this traumatic relationship with their hair. I never have. As for assuming it was ugly :shrug: only when I misjudged my styling choices, :) (I think most of us have had those at some point) but not when I matched my skills to the style.

Unicorn

Helix
July 3rd, 2012, 03:39 PM
Welp...It's a good thing I no longer give two poops what anyone thinks about my appearance or how I choose to wear my hair. My coworkers/family already know they can't change my mind and gave up trying to convince me to relax ages ago. When it was shorter they just couldn't see my vision :D Now that they see it growing and thriving the comments and jokes have completely stopped, (Seems to be a misconception that my kind of hair doesn't grow, but they're learning slowly :)).

When it comes to my hair or my body, I do what I want, end of story. If someone doesn't like it that is their concern not mine. My name is not Captain save-a-heaux and I know I cannot change everybody's opinion about my hair. Likewise, they will not change my opinion about mine. Do you and KIM.

ETA: Is 'good hair' an American or British term? I never heard the phrase used to describe anyones hair when I lived in southern Africa.

HappyHair87
July 3rd, 2012, 03:49 PM
I really think its a Southern Black term. (In the South of the USA) I thought EVERYBODY knew what it meant until i started doing hair care research. I'm finding a lot of Black Americans from other parts of the country have no idea what it means and why its such a big deal.

I'm from/live in the South and the racism AND the scars of the hardcore racism from a few blue moons ago is still here. So there is a lot to overcome when one decides to go natural in areas like mine.

Unicorn
July 3rd, 2012, 05:06 PM
ETA: Is 'good hair' an American or British term? I never heard the phrase used to describe anyones hair when I lived in southern Africa.
It's also a Caribbean term that's been bought over to the UK.

Unicorn

CurlyCap
July 3rd, 2012, 07:31 PM
I agree, and I am glad you commented, as I believe you can understand where I'm coming from. I have type 3 hair, but this is an issue that bothers me.

It's bothersome because, through no action of your own, you're treated as if you've accomplished something miraculous. You have "good hair". It can be easily combed. When it's straightened, it's perfectly straight. The curl is easily pulled out to reveal length.

It's bothersome because you did nothing special beyond what any person who takes care of their hair does, and yet you are constantly compared to and used as ammunition against people who didn't do anything wrong.

At least, that's my take on it. I don't like being used as an example to hurt people just by existing.

I love this topic because I think it just needs to be out there in the open. I really believe that when prejudices are talked about openly, they lose their power. However, it is such a sensitive issue for so many people, so many people have been truly hurt by comments about their hair, that discussions about hair, and how curlies choose to wear their hair, always hurt someone's feelings. Even though I want to have the conversations, it makes me tired.

I think I have a unique perspective. Like you, I'm mixed. However, while my dad's friends (black) would say I have lovely hair because it is less tightly curled, my mother's family (Filipino) would curse my hair because it doesn't lie perfectly flat. The same features one group celebrated the other group truly hated. It taught me at an early age that you can't please everyone. That there is no such thing as a "perfect" feature. That all you can do is try to be healthy and happy and try to not hurt the people around you.

CurlyCap
July 3rd, 2012, 07:41 PM
I do feel like I am treated better when my hair is straightened. It might be that I also look more racially ambiguous when straightened. But I do get lots of compliments on my curls, also.

This is when it really hit home for me that hair is a problem for brown-skinned women. I grew up in a non-black community and thankfully sheltered from a lot of comments, except random one's that I was able to brush off.

However, when I went to college and then to medical school, I was constantly reminding that I looked more professional if my hair was straighter or at least more contained. My hair is not as loud as curly hair can get. My hair has some downward vertical aspect to it that allows people to read it as "normal".

I caved to social pressure once, for my med school application pictures. I didn't want people to focus on my big hair and so I had it straightened for all of my headshots because I knew that it made me more racially ambiguous. And it did. I marked "other/mixed" on my applications, and when I interviewed was instantly asked by faculty "what I was" rather than being lumped with black or under-represented students. It wasn't fair. It shouldn't matter. Why were they looking at my hair in the first place when I was there for an education?

Anyway, that experience gave me pause and was when I really started try to learn how to wear my hair curly. I was 20yo, had no clue how to prevent frizz in curly hair, but really wanted to celebrate how I was made. I knew that if I was under that kind of social pressure, then it had to be the same or worse other females with tightly curly hair.

I didn't know about hair boards at the time. I learned by trial and error and LOTS of horrible hair days. But it's a huge part of why I love giving feedback and welcoming new curlies. It's really hard to have curly hair in the U.S., even more so if you're black because it's hard to find role-models to ask "How did you do that?". So now I take the approach that if there's anything I can do to help you feel more comfortable in your skin and hair... I'm willing to try to help. I went through it myself and I'd be happy to help you up the learning curve.

MandyBeth
July 3rd, 2012, 08:01 PM
Do you bleach and dye your hair because you believe your natural hair is disgusting, not acceptable and you won't be taken seriously because of it?

Have you grown up being told that your natural hair colour is disgusting, messy and unprofessional?

Are you willing to get burnt by the chemicals you apply, have your hair breaking off in chunks and have short hair, even though you'd love long hair, simply because you could not stand to go natural?

If no, then, no, dying is not the same.

Yes. I've got the dark dirty blonde color naturally. I darken my hair, I'm treated more professionally. Even black and teal is better. I used PPD dyes for years, causing a reaction that burned my scalp so I had no hair.

I also have hair that can just be blah and if I had a dime for every "Just texturize it." or variation, I could have retired at 22.

No side is ideal. The number of insults directed towards my white blonde husband for wearing his 4b/c hair in locs runs towards 10 daily. Most are that white people shouldn't have locs, most of those are not from those appearing to be Caucasian.

kowlrea
July 3rd, 2012, 08:06 PM
Caribbean people use the term "pretty hair"

I believe until you have that "4b,4c,4z" type hair then you cannot judge anyone for how they choose to wear/style it. And it's a mother's choice to do what she wants with her child's hair , may not be the best choice but it isn't my child and she didn't ask my opinion, so I really could care less.

CurlyCap
July 3rd, 2012, 08:29 PM
Ambystoma Wrote:
I think wearing 4 type hair natural is gaining favour amongst african women in my area, I've seen a couple of beautifully cared for 4b ish manes around, as well as lots of pretty braided protective styles. I think it looks really stunning worn lose and big and natural, but I don't envy how much work it must be to keep it looking nice like that!

CurlyCurves Wrote:
This is quite offensive. I wish people would stop referring to type 3 and 4 hair as 'work'.

I think this type of conversation relates to a HUGE cultural and experiential rift.

For example:

When I first joined LHC, I didn't understand the hype about all the buns, updos, and hairtoy use. I've been tying my hair in buns and knots all my life. It's easy. Curly hair sticks to itself and so getting hair "up" takes very little effort. And since things like to get lost in my hair, my first hair toys were accidental. (Sticking things in my hair and watching them hang their for hours was pretty much my party trick as a kid.) So, for a long time, I just put the buns and updos into the category of a cultural thing I didn't get. Like blonde hair. There must be some cultural/regional/ethnic importance that I just still don't understand.

Then last fall, I started babysitting for my friend's daughter. She's elementary school age and has 1a/f/i-ii type hair. She adores Ms. CurlyCaps fancy hairdos and big flowers and wanted to know if I would do her hair just like mine.

I figured: Easy. Updos are easy.

It wasn't until I had all that slippery mess in my hands that I realized that there is an art to working with straight hair. I realized that just as there were a million "tricks" to making my hair behave, there are a million tricks to getting straighter hair to behave. However, whereas curly-heads tend to refer to our hair-care needs as "extra necessary steps", straight-haired folk just do what their hair needs. Maybe it doesn't seem as strange because they are taught by their friends and family around them. Maybe that makes the extra steps seem routine.

But there IS work in straight hair. Incredible, mind-boggling work. Holding on to a thousand slippery or straight strands that don't want to stand up but won't quite lie down. Heads of hair where any escapees stand out like a sore thumb. Hair that oils itself for no good reason and leaves the top stringy but the bottom dry. Ends you can see and hair straight enough that a 1" difference from left to right is not only visible but considered highly unsightly. I don't deal with these problems. They are mysterious to me.

Working with my friends daughter made me realize that everyone with healthy hair WORKS HARD for their hair. It's just that the tools and approaches are different..and maybe we get anesthetized to the work we do all the time because it's routine.

(Sorry if that was ramble and my point got lost. I just wanted to speak about how I can understand how people see curly hair as work even though to me it seems so simple....and yet it can be irritating when people think I go to amazing lengths to have healthy curls.)

Unicorn
July 3rd, 2012, 08:35 PM
Caribbean people use the term "pretty hair"

I believe until you have that "4b,4c,4z" type hair then you cannot judge anyone for how they choose to wear/style it. And it's a mother's choice to do what she wants with her child's hair , may not be the best choice but it isn't my child and she didn't ask my opinion, so I really could care less.
My Caribbean parents and extended family used both terms, though good/bad hair is the one I heard most.

Unicorn

kowlrea
July 3rd, 2012, 08:41 PM
Which island are your parents from ?

Tisiloves
July 3rd, 2012, 08:42 PM
Ambystoma Wrote:
I think wearing 4 type hair natural is gaining favour amongst african women in my area, I've seen a couple of beautifully cared for 4b ish manes around, as well as lots of pretty braided protective styles. I think it looks really stunning worn lose and big and natural, but I don't envy how much work it must be to keep it looking nice like that!

CurlyCurves Wrote:
This is quite offensive. I wish people would stop referring to type 3 and 4 hair as 'work'.

I think this type of conversation relates to a HUGE cultural and experiential rift.

For example:

When I first joined LHC, I didn't understand the hype about all the buns, updos, and hairtoy use. I've been tying my hair in buns and knots all my life. It's easy. Curly hair sticks to itself and so getting hair "up" takes very little effort. And since things like to get lost in my hair, my first hair toys were accidental. (Sticking things in my hair and watching them hang their for hours was pretty much my party trick as a kid.) So, for a long time, I just put the buns and updos into the category of a cultural thing I didn't get. Like blonde hair. There must be some cultural/regional/ethnic importance that I just still don't understand.


I had it going the other way, my poor friend had to deal with about ten minutes of :

"So your twists just stay like that?"
"Really? No wax or anything?"
"They don't just come undone?"
because getting my hair to stay practically requires superglue.

(She was pretty surprised I never blowdried tho, she didn't realise that I don't have any shrinkage.)

MandyBeth
July 3rd, 2012, 08:53 PM
As one with straight hair, it likes to slither and slide out of everything. It's a pain in the neck.

With a 3c haired minion, argh, I don't have a clue some days. It's just as difficult, but in other ways.

Rufflebutt
July 3rd, 2012, 09:06 PM
I remember when I was younger, one of my bestest friends in the whole world was half black. As far as black goes, she's extremely light. Think Latina skin. And her hair is probably more in the 3 range.
Even so, we live in an area that is 95% white and thus her hair did stand out. And since her mother is white and her father left her, she had never had any idea about how to take care of her hair. All her life she treated it as if it were straight. I'd watch her try to rip a brush through it dry and see it turn to frizz, I'd watch her constantly flat ironing her hair until it was pin straight and frying it in the process, ect.
Whenever she could afford it, it was always relaxed. And honestly, I love her natural texture and I feel she should grow to love it more. But she just scowls at me and tells me how much she hates it whenever I tell her that. "It's hard to manage, it's ugly, ect." She'd say things like,"I wish my hair grew like yours." or "I wish my skin was lighter like yours." I can understand that she felt really out of place being labeled as "the black girl" in our town. That a lot of people were really racist and didn't have a problem using the n-word around her. But it always made me really sad when she made those kinds of self-hating comments.
Unfortunately, as we grew older (around 14-15) we grew less close. For typical high school reasons, really. The popular kids finally took notice of her so she left her dorky awkward BFF behind. Le sigh. To this day when I see her in the hallway, her hair still looks really damaged and fried because of all the harsh chemicals and heat.

Ambystoma
July 4th, 2012, 12:39 AM
So sorry! I didn't mean to offend any one at all! I was coming more from the perspective that anyone with pretty healthy looking hair must put a lot of work into it to keep it that way, and for me as a wavy, it takes more effort to make the most of my natural texture rather than flatiron it. I was also making the assumption (I know, I shouldn't assume) that since curly hair is often drier and more delicate because of the structure of the hair shaft, that it must be even harder for people with hair curlier than mine to keep it moisturised and damage free. Again, I'm so sorry if I was inadvertently perpetuating negative ways of viewing natural curly hair, and I'm learning a lot from reading about people's experiences in this thread.:flower:

CurlyCurves
July 4th, 2012, 11:49 AM
My family is sort of like this too.

All my brothers go bald in their 30's and my sisters have bleached, and fried their hair to the point where it is thin and lifeless. So they see my hair and tell me you are lucky you got the 'good' hair gene!!!

Weird, because we all started with pretty much the same hair! They have just killed theirs!!!

One of my sisters has finally succumbed to benign neglect and her hair looks better than it has in years! Same thing with my mom.

My other 2 sisters persist in coloring, bleaching, and using tons of products which makes their hair end up looking sort of like flat, lifeless, barbie doll hair!

They ask me what I do to keep my hair not looking so limp and when I tell them they just can't wrap their heads around it and just chalk it up to me being weird and having 'good' hair and go on with their hair killing ways.

Funny thing is I am way older than all of them and my hair looks way younger than theirs. Not to mention I look younger all over because I don't overeat, and put junk food into my body... grrr

Whatever. I have decided it is none of my business I ignore then now and I suggest you do the same with your aunt. You can never change another person and what they think is really their problem not yours. :D

I love natural black hair and I am fascinated by kinky, curly coils. I once had a friend with natural black hair and she would braid my hair for me and show me how she cared for her hair and that was one of the things that got me coming to this forum!!!

Yeah, it's a common problem! People tell me I'm so lucky to have beautiful hair, and that they wish they had hair like mine. All the while I think, if you stopped blowfrying/constantly flat ironing/dying your hair, yours would be just as beautiful!


I'm glad you said this! I did not learn that statement until i joined both this forum and another forum geared towards curly hair. I always thought it was a "black thing"...but no...its really for whoever has a kink or curl anywhere in their hair.

I work with someone who has a child, she herself is white and the dad is black...the child has some BEAUTIFUL gorgeous 4a hair!!! And its that dirty blonde color that most black ppl with naturally blonde hair have...omg! :heartbeat

So the lady (she's my supervisor) asks me all the time about my hair and how do i care for it and how do i get it like this and like that...so i share. But to hear how she makes it seem like her daughter's hair is such a problem and she even said one time that her daughter has her father's "bad hair"...i just stared blankly at her when she said that. I chalk it up to sheer ignorance.

She thought her child's hair would come out looser in texture bc she herself has pin straight blonde hair. She even said to me the other day that other Black women ask me about my hair bc they are jealous....i told her..."no that's not the case...a LOT of Black women are going natural now and our race is really JUST LEARNING about how to take care of our hair in it's natural state. You may see a lot of weaves...but a lot of Black women are transitioning under their weaves to become natural. So they do come up and ask me questions."

She was even shocked to learn that all i use is Tresemme and gel on my hair everyday!

Since joining different forums i have come to find that hair is hair!!! So its even more dumb to me that there are "ethnic hair care" sections in stores:justy:

You either learn to care for it or you just don't. I wish i knew exactly where this thing about straight hair being the best hair came from because even on here...i don't see too many ppl with pin straight hair. Some ppl on here have 1a in their details and i can see a wave in it:D And why have Black ppl been made to assimilate to look more "white" by straightening our hair...when a majority of White ppl have curly hair themselves?!!

UGH!!! My brain!:laugh:

I totally agree.

And, wow. That is disgusting :/


CurlyCurves, you might find this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=43281) about the multi-quote button useful. :)


Thank you so much! As you can see, I'm making full use of my new skill :p

As for people touching your hair, I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I LOVE people touching my hair. I used to beg my cousins to play with it for hours :D


from the other end of the 'bad hair spectrum' ( All my life I have been told my hair won't grow long because it's 'thin' - 3 inch pony circumference isn't thin! And, 'oh, but it was so pretty when you were a kid,' pretty meaning naturally blonde) I think it is good to talk about this stuff.

I had a black roommate who I am still friends with and she had just gone natural, had had dreads started, then cared for them herself. Lovely lovely hair, definitely 4 type, and I was so interested in her haircare routine. She descibed for me what she did (vinegar rinses, shea butter, I forget what else) and let me watch her twist her dreads. :D It was really enlightening, especially since I was only starting to learn at the time about MY hair and how it also doesn't fit what hair is supposed to do, how it's supposed to fall, hang, etc.

This friend, C., had started to look for work again with her hair natural and got put down by other black women! Outrageous! I was shocked and amazed when she told me this, also how her mom had always favored her lighter-skinned, wavier-haired brother who sounded like a real loser, over her because she was 'dark and nappy.'

It is totally about racism, as are many beauty standards. To me this one is particularly unfair because it is so often women against women, which is really sad.

Yeah, that happens a lot :(

And sorry you were put down about your hair too.


You know what...im actually glad this thread was started because:

Being black...when you have looser curls like me...there are women out there (esp Black..sad but true) that say things that make you feel uncomfortable. (Like with OP's aunt) The majority of my hair really is mostly 3b/3c. My 4a is my nape and right above my ears.

Online...i feel sometimes i have to make sure i have to add in that i have some 4a hair. There is this attitude that if you're a light skinned black woman with loose curls that you must think you are all of that and a Starbucks cup! Or that you think you're White. Because all you have to do is put some gel in and go...and that is waaaaaaaaay far from the truth!

Sometimes i feel like i'm not being "Black" enough and both of my parents are Black AND i am currently living in the hood i grew up in! When i was transitioning i was hoping that i would have tight curls all around my head...but that didn't happen -____-. So yeah...being a Type 4 is notoriously hard to be...but being a type 3 in a predominantly Type 4 world can be just as exhausting...

Its like you're being put on a pedestal you don't wanna be on just because you have these freakin ringlets. And ppl will say things that just make you feel like O____o??!

I found a poem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGoFmCTLtog) on Youtube the other day and i was like WOW somebody feels like me!!! I have days where i just want to shake and swing my hair in the wind because i do love my hair! But i feel like i can't in my environment bc it would be taken as "She thinks she's cute". But a woman with 4a/4b hair in a fierce style is considered "edgy" and she's just fine with flaunting it. *sigh* I told my friend the other day i wish i had "real Black folks hair"...bc i get tired of all the questions about my race...everyday it never ends! Some people INSIST that i am half White! My response is now simply "if that helps you sleep at nite...then so be it" I wish i could do the fierce 4a/4b styles and wear a microphone afro...but my hair doesn't do that. I can barely get my hair to stay in twists. My hair requires water pretty much everyday to be happy and i have to make sure its frequently detangled.

Sometimes i just go against what i'm feeling and will at least just sit there and twirl a curl around my finger. I am just learning that this is my natural texture after being relaxed for almost all my life! And it is amusing to me...i just wish i could fully enjoy it. Ppl STARE at me everytime i get on the bus (in a Black neighborhood)...sometimes i wanna scream: "What?!! Have you never seen a Black woman with curly hair???!!!"

It just brings back the bad memories of 5th grade when i went to my first all black school and the kids made fun of me bc i was light skinned and i had "long" hair. That kind of thing sticks with a person for life.

Thank you for sharing.

CurlyCurves
July 4th, 2012, 11:50 AM
I'm surprised to learn that you're from the UK. The things you're saying I've generally heard from AAs rather than Black Brits. I was astonished when I learned only a few years ago (around the time I joined LHC) that so many AAs had such big issues with their hair\

I grew up in the UK and have had a very different experience. While aware of good/bad hair comments, it was in line with tall/short, fat/thin quiet/loud comments. But I really didn't come across the it to the level of seriousness you've stated.

When I did relax my hair, it was simply something new to try, "coming of age" experiments that also took in colouring and different cuts along the way. I didn't experience the burns and trauma that I've read about on the net. Only once did I have damaged hair that broke off. (an apprentice hair dresser) But the slightest stinging, for me, meant something had gone wrong and the whole lot was washed off.

I don't think you can assume that all black women have this traumatic relationship with their hair. I never have. As for assuming it was ugly only when I misjudged my styling choices, (I think most of us have had those at some point) but not when I matched my skills to the style.

Unicorn

While most of the worse experiences and ignorance I have observed and read about comes from AAs (online, it seems to be mostly Americans I come in contact with), I have seen this sort of attitude plenty in my day to day life.

Not every black woman has a traumatic relationship with their hair, but a lot do. Not only that, but I do believe that it's a big issue in the black community, either unconsciously or consciously, depending on the person.


Welp...It's a good thing I no longer give two poops what anyone thinks about my appearance or how I choose to wear my hair. My coworkers/family already know they can't change my mind and gave up trying to convince me to relax ages ago. When it was shorter they just couldn't see my vision Now that they see it growing and thriving the comments and jokes have completely stopped, (Seems to be a misconception that my kind of hair doesn't grow, but they're learning slowly ).

When it comes to my hair or my body, I do what I want, end of story. If someone doesn't like it that is their concern not mine. My name is not Captain save-a-heaux and I know I cannot change everybody's opinion about my hair. Likewise, they will not change my opinion about mine. Do you and KIM.



Exactly :)

CurlyCurves
July 4th, 2012, 11:57 AM
It's bothersome because, through no action of your own, you're treated as if you've accomplished something miraculous. You have "good hair". It can be easily combed. When it's straightened, it's perfectly straight. The curl is easily pulled out to reveal length.

It's bothersome because you did nothing special beyond what any person who takes care of their hair does, and yet you are constantly compared to and used as ammunition against people who didn't do anything wrong.

At least, that's my take on it. I don't like being used as an example to hurt people just by existing.

I love this topic because I think it just needs to be out there in the open. I really believe that when prejudices are talked about openly, they lose their power. However, it is such a sensitive issue for so many people, so many people have been truly hurt by comments about their hair, that discussions about hair, and how curlies choose to wear their hair, always hurt someone's feelings. Even though I want to have the conversations, it makes me tired.

I think I have a unique perspective. Like you, I'm mixed. However, while my dad's friends (black) would say I have lovely hair because it is less tightly curled, my mother's family (Filipino) would curse my hair because it doesn't lie perfectly flat. The same features one group celebrated the other group truly hated. It taught me at an early age that you can't please everyone. That there is no such thing as a "perfect" feature. That all you can do is try to be healthy and happy and try to not hurt the people around you.

I agree. Thank you for your comment.


This is when it really hit home for me that hair is a problem for brown-skinned women. I grew up in a non-black community and thankfully sheltered from a lot of comments, except random one's that I was able to brush off.

However, when I went to college and then to medical school, I was constantly reminding that I looked more professional if my hair was straighter or at least more contained. My hair is not as loud as curly hair can get. My hair has some downward vertical aspect to it that allows people to read it as "normal".

I caved to social pressure once, for my med school application pictures. I didn't want people to focus on my big hair and so I had it straightened for all of my headshots because I knew that it made me more racially ambiguous. And it did. I marked "other/mixed" on my applications, and when I interviewed was instantly asked by faculty "what I was" rather than being lumped with black or under-represented students. It wasn't fair. It shouldn't matter. Why were they looking at my hair in the first place when I was there for an education?

Anyway, that experience gave me pause and was when I really started try to learn how to wear my hair curly. I was 20yo, had no clue how to prevent frizz in curly hair, but really wanted to celebrate how I was made. I knew that if I was under that kind of social pressure, then it had to be the same or worse other females with tightly curly hair.

I didn't know about hair boards at the time. I learned by trial and error and LOTS of horrible hair days. But it's a huge part of why I love giving feedback and welcoming new curlies. It's really hard to have curly hair in the U.S., even more so if you're black because it's hard to find role-models to ask "How did you do that?". So now I take the approach that if there's anything I can do to help you feel more comfortable in your skin and hair... I'm willing to try to help. I went through it myself and I'd be happy to help you up the learning curve.

I especially agree with this last point. When I first went natural, I really struggled. I felt like there was no place for me. I couldn't find anyone with my hair type, and if I did find someone similar, they didn't do the same things to it that I done to mine. I can't (at least not now), do multi-day hair. I can't put oil in my hair.

When I post pictures of my hair, I sometimes get worried that people think I'm showing off, or gloating. I feel like people think 'why's she natural? She hasn't got a struggle. She never struggled with her hair'. I've recieved comments of this nature.

However, I am now more comfortable with my hair, and more independent in its care :)


Yes. I've got the dark dirty blonde color naturally. I darken my hair, I'm treated more professionally. Even black and teal is better. I used PPD dyes for years, causing a reaction that burned my scalp so I had no hair.

I also have hair that can just be blah and if I had a dime for every "Just texturize it." or variation, I could have retired at 22.

No side is ideal. The number of insults directed towards my white blonde husband for wearing his 4b/c hair in locs runs towards 10 daily. Most are that white people shouldn't have locs, most of those are not from those appearing to be Caucasian.

Then that is just as important an issue to me, sweetie, and is just as deserving of recognition of injustice.

CurlyCurves
July 4th, 2012, 12:04 PM
I believe until you have that "4b,4c,4z" type hair then you cannot judge anyone for how they choose to wear/style it. And it's a mother's choice to do what she wants with her child's hair , may not be the best choice but it isn't my child and she didn't ask my opinion, so I really could care less.

So I can't judge people with 1a hair who choose to abuse the crap out of their hair because I don't have 1a hair? :rolleyes:

As for the mother's choice, I'm sorry, but when it comes to another human being who, despite being a biological product of said Mother, is their own person, with their own rights, and their own body, I do care. So, no, I am not going to 'look the other way' because she decides she wants to apply chemicals to her child's head and she didn't ask my opinion. That's how children get hurt and people throw their hands up in the air and say 'we should have done something!'. People should stop 'minding their own business' when it comes to the welfare of children, vulnerable people and animals.


Ambystoma Wrote:
I think wearing 4 type hair natural is gaining favour amongst african women in my area, I've seen a couple of beautifully cared for 4b ish manes around, as well as lots of pretty braided protective styles. I think it looks really stunning worn lose and big and natural, but I don't envy how much work it must be to keep it looking nice like that!

CurlyCurves Wrote:
This is quite offensive. I wish people would stop referring to type 3 and 4 hair as 'work'.

I think this type of conversation relates to a HUGE cultural and experiential rift.

For example:

When I first joined LHC, I didn't understand the hype about all the buns, updos, and hairtoy use. I've been tying my hair in buns and knots all my life. It's easy. Curly hair sticks to itself and so getting hair "up" takes very little effort. And since things like to get lost in my hair, my first hair toys were accidental. (Sticking things in my hair and watching them hang their for hours was pretty much my party trick as a kid.) So, for a long time, I just put the buns and updos into the category of a cultural thing I didn't get. Like blonde hair. There must be some cultural/regional/ethnic importance that I just still don't understand.

Then last fall, I started babysitting for my friend's daughter. She's elementary school age and has 1a/f/i-ii type hair. She adores Ms. CurlyCaps fancy hairdos and big flowers and wanted to know if I would do her hair just like mine.

I figured: Easy. Updos are easy.

It wasn't until I had all that slippery mess in my hands that I realized that there is an art to working with straight hair. I realized that just as there were a million "tricks" to making my hair behave, there are a million tricks to getting straighter hair to behave. However, whereas curly-heads tend to refer to our hair-care needs as "extra necessary steps", straight-haired folk just do what their hair needs. Maybe it doesn't seem as strange because they are taught by their friends and family around them. Maybe that makes the extra steps seem routine.

But there IS work in straight hair. Incredible, mind-boggling work. Holding on to a thousand slippery or straight strands that don't want to stand up but won't quite lie down. Heads of hair where any escapees stand out like a sore thumb. Hair that oils itself for no good reason and leaves the top stringy but the bottom dry. Ends you can see and hair straight enough that a 1" difference from left to right is not only visible but considered highly unsightly. I don't deal with these problems. They are mysterious to me.

Working with my friends daughter made me realize that everyone with healthy hair WORKS HARD for their hair. It's just that the tools and approaches are different..and maybe we get anesthetized to the work we do all the time because it's routine.

(Sorry if that was ramble and my point got lost. I just wanted to speak about how I can understand how people see curly hair as work even though to me it seems so simple....and yet it can be irritating when people think I go to amazing lengths to have healthy curls.)

I agree!


I remember when I was younger, one of my bestest friends in the whole world was half black. As far as black goes, she's extremely light. Think Latina skin. And her hair is probably more in the 3 range.
Even so, we live in an area that is 95% white and thus her hair did stand out. And since her mother is white and her father left her, she had never had any idea about how to take care of her hair. All her life she treated it as if it were straight. I'd watch her try to rip a brush through it dry and see it turn to frizz, I'd watch her constantly flat ironing her hair until it was pin straight and frying it in the process, ect.
Whenever she could afford it, it was always relaxed. And honestly, I love her natural texture and I feel she should grow to love it more. But she just scowls at me and tells me how much she hates it whenever I tell her that. "It's hard to manage, it's ugly, ect." She'd say things like,"I wish my hair grew like yours." or "I wish my skin was lighter like yours." I can understand that she felt really out of place being labeled as "the black girl" in our town. That a lot of people were really racist and didn't have a problem using the n-word around her. But it always made me really sad when she made those kinds of self-hating comments.
Unfortunately, as we grew older (around 14-15) we grew less close. For typical high school reasons, really. The popular kids finally took notice of her so she left her dorky awkward BFF behind. Le sigh. To this day when I see her in the hallway, her hair still looks really damaged and fried because of all the harsh chemicals and heat.

Just makes me so sad :(:(


So sorry! I didn't mean to offend any one at all! I was coming more from the perspective that anyone with pretty healthy looking hair must put a lot of work into it to keep it that way, and for me as a wavy, it takes more effort to make the most of my natural texture rather than flatiron it. I was also making the assumption (I know, I shouldn't assume) that since curly hair is often drier and more delicate because of the structure of the hair shaft, that it must be even harder for people with hair curlier than mine to keep it moisturised and damage free. Again, I'm so sorry if I was inadvertently perpetuating negative ways of viewing natural curly hair, and I'm learning a lot from reading about people's experiences in this thread.:flower:

That's okay, I didn't think you were being intentionally offensive. It's just, sometimes I feel like a freak show because I have curly hair. I hate that curly hair has this stigma of being 'unmanagable/hard to manage', 'unruly' and ugly. I love my curly hair - I just wish society did too :flower:

kowlrea
July 4th, 2012, 08:29 PM
So I can't judge people with 1a hair who choose to abuse the crap out of their hair because I don't have 1a hair? :rolleyes:

As for the mother's choice, I'm sorry, but when it comes to another human being who, despite being a biological product of said Mother, is their own person, with their own rights, and their own body, I do care. So, no, I am not going to 'look the other way' because she decides she wants to apply chemicals to her child's head and she didn't ask my opinion. That's how children get hurt and people throw their hands up in the air and say 'we should have done something!'. People should stop 'minding their own business' when it comes to the welfare of children, vulnerable people and animals.

Who are you to judge anyone ?

Unicorn
July 4th, 2012, 08:44 PM
While most of the worse experiences and ignorance I have observed and read about comes from AAs (online, it seems to be mostly Americans I come in contact with), I have seen this sort of attitude plenty in my day to day life.

Not every black woman has a traumatic relationship with their hair, but a lot do. Not only that, but I do believe that it's a big issue in the black community, either unconsciously or consciously, depending on the person.
I agree with the bolded. People can and do have insecurities about any aspect of their bodies. I can only say that the extremes I've come across from AAs and what's being said on this thread isn't at all in line with my experience. Black girls/women I've known or met who have such an extreme negative view of their hair have, almost invariably, had negative views about other aspects of their physical appearance.

Unicorn

CurlyCurves
July 5th, 2012, 06:31 AM
Who are you to judge anyone ?

And who are you to tell me I can't judge someone who applies caustic chemicals to their child's head which, by the way, can affect their hair in later life. Permenantly.

My Mother cut all of my hair off when I was 7. It was traumatic for me, and still is. It was my hair, my body. She didn't have a right to do that just because she's my Mother.


I agree with the bolded. People can and do have insecurities about any aspect of their bodies. I can only say that the extremes I've come across from AAs and what's being said on this thread isn't at all in line with my experience. Black girls/women I've known or met who have such an extreme negative view of their hair have, almost invariably, had negative views about other aspects of their physical appearance.

Unicorn

Thank you for sharing :)

EtherealDoll
July 5th, 2012, 08:23 AM
Do you bleach and dye your hair because you believe your natural hair is disgusting, not acceptable and you won't be taken seriously because of it?

Have you grown up being told that your natural hair colour is disgusting, messy and unprofessional?

Are you willing to get burnt by the chemicals you apply, have your hair breaking off in chunks and have short hair, even though you'd love long hair, simply because you could not stand to go natural?

If no, then, no, dying is not the same


All my life I've been told that my hair used to be so pretty when I was a child(it was blond and then turned mousy brown), and I really hated it and still do, and would not go natural. When I was 16 I started dyeing it and was very happy with it. It didn't fall off in chunks and grew perfectly well, and still grows 2 cm a month.


All the while I think, if you stopped blowfrying/constantly flat ironing/dying your hair, yours would be just as beautiful!

This is also " bad hair/good hair" mentality in "dyed hair=bad", "natural hair=good". People who dye their hair can have beautiful hair when they take care of it, just like people with natural hair can have head full of split hairs when they don't take care of it.

Amber_Maiden
July 5th, 2012, 10:49 AM
I don't give it much thought to tell you the truth. If anybody says anything about "bad" hair, I immediately chalk it up to personal preference. I have my personal preferences, too.

Same here.

tohavelongcurls
July 5th, 2012, 01:48 PM
I believe until you have that "4b,4c,4z" type hair then you cannot judge anyone for how they choose to wear/style it. And it's a mother's choice to do what she wants with her child's hair , may not be the best choice but it isn't my child and she didn't ask my opinion, so I really could care less.

Of course you can't judge an adult about how they style their hair (I disagree with you about actively harming a child's hair.) But this isn't about judging. The good hair/bad hair mentality stems from racism. Critiquing the mentality is critiquing the racist beliefs underlying it, not individual women who make choices about their hair for any number of reasons. Personally, I would never judge a woman with type 4 hair who chose to relax it because she liked it, or it made life easier for her, or she was treated better at work, or she had to put up with less c**p, etc... That's her decision on how to survive in this world, and it's no one's business but her own. But I can and I will critique the structure underlying these beliefs, because it is harmful.

As other people have pointed out, negative stereotypes affect a number of different hair types, with various levels of harm. Blondes face the 'dumb blonde' stereotype, for instance, as well as the more positive belief that blonde is beautiful. Critiquing the underlying belief about why blonde hair is considered more beautiful than other colors, and questioning why so many women feel the need to bleach their hair, is a completely different matter from judging a woman who decides to bleach her hair for whatever reason.

OakTreeGirl
July 5th, 2012, 10:47 PM
I'm not black myself, but I do find natural type 4 hair beautiful, and it sure is sad that some people don't see the beauty in it. I remember the first time I saw Tyra Banks with her natural hair. I always knew she was pretty, but I never realized how gorgeous she really is until then. It's sad how she often hides it under wigs that really don't suit her. I don't say this in any way as an insult to her or other women who may choose wigs/weaves/extensions/etc. It's just that when somebody has a lot of natural beauty, it's sad when they don't see it in themselves.

Every hair type has its own unique advantages. When I see videos of type 4 women who can just put their hair in a particular shape and then secure it with one bobby pin, I'm pretty sure that's a super power!

From my perspective, I do try to focus on the positive, because there is a tremendous amount of influence in doing so. More and more women are going natural, and there is an immense power to influence people in each black woman who sees her natural self, not only as normal, but as a beautiful treasure. My contribution to this is that I do express admiration for natural hair when I see it. (I don't feel awkward about it because I wait for a time when the acquaintanceship is close enough to comment on one another's hair. I don't just comment to strangers about their personal appearance. And, secondly, I just say that I like the hair. I don't bring up race issues until/unless they want to bring it up.)

I do believe in the saying that you have to be the change you want to see in the world. I try to do the same thing with going makeup free. I'm not against makeup and I do wear it sometimes, but I do see it as an accessory and I see the beauty in my bare skin. I think the simple fact of me existing with this belief has helped influence the views of a couple of people I know.

MandyBeth
July 6th, 2012, 12:24 AM
My sister has 3b/c hair that she chemically relaxed then flat irons to 1a. She's the "ideal" blonde, people pay money for her natural color. She keeps her hair between shoulder and APL. Her hair makes her happy as it is. She doesn't like her hair curly, nor is she required to. It's her head, not mine. A stranger can't tell her hair isn't mostly straight because she cuts her hair monthly to not have damage.

I have wavy hair if I don't touch it while drying. It can reach "surly" even, slightly curly that then tends to have a mind of it's own. Yet I brush my hair while damp, I go to 1b.

If my daughter wants to have straight hair later, she'll have to use chemicals. She's just too curly, non heat methods get her to 2c.

Why should it be accepted that my blue eyed blonde white sister can do what she pleases with her hair and I can brush my hair straight , yet my deep brown eyed, black haired half Latina daughter must wear her hair curly no matter what she wants? That's just as racist - my daughter can't have straight hair because she's brown skinned. She must wear curls or she's trying to be white. What on earth makes that acceptable?

Unicorn
July 6th, 2012, 09:36 PM
My sister has 3b/c hair that she chemically relaxed then flat irons to 1a. She's the "ideal" blonde, people pay money for her natural color. She keeps her hair between shoulder and APL. Her hair makes her happy as it is. She doesn't like her hair curly, nor is she required to. It's her head, not mine. A stranger can't tell her hair isn't mostly straight because she cuts her hair monthly to not have damage.

I have wavy hair if I don't touch it while drying. It can reach "surly" even, slightly curly that then tends to have a mind of it's own. Yet I brush my hair while damp, I go to 1b.

If my daughter wants to have straight hair later, she'll have to use chemicals. She's just too curly, non heat methods get her to 2c.

Why should it be accepted that my blue eyed blonde white sister can do what she pleases with her hair and I can brush my hair straight , yet my deep brown eyed, black haired half Latina daughter must wear her hair curly no matter what she wants? That's just as racist - my daughter can't have straight hair because she's brown skinned. She must wear curls or she's trying to be white. What on earth makes that acceptable?
I've heard those comments too, I've never quite got that logic. Do you think anyone is fooled by the straight hair? :) I've had it said to me when I wore my hair straight, I asked them if if was working. They left alone after that. LOL

Unicorn

QueenAnne'sLace
July 6th, 2012, 09:52 PM
You are SO right on with this.

I've seen women prioritize their money for a weave or perm while they sink deeper in credit card debt or neglect other areas of their lives. There's too much pressure on black women to be white. They're gorgeous just being themselves.

Chris Rock had a good documentary about this.

lacefrost
July 8th, 2012, 09:09 PM
I'm sorry Lacefrost, I didn't mean to make you feel 'other'. :( I just want to do the right thing but it's not as straight-forward as it seems. I'm not a touchy-feely person with people I don't know though, so suffice to say I won't be putting my hands uninvited into a stranger's hair, whatever their hairtype; but I will make an effort to compliment the curly girls I know in real life more. :)

For what it's worth, your hair truly is amazing. I admire it in your sig and avatar every time I see you post. :flower:

Thank you, I appreciate it. And please don't misunderstand. I'm not mad or even really offended. It's just the sort of thing that makes me sad to hear. Especially cause everyone on here could talk hair for hours lol. Well maybe not hours but you know what I mean. At any rate, I think that your compliments will be well received.



It's bothersome because you did nothing special beyond what any person who takes care of their hair does, and yet you are constantly compared to and used as ammunition against people who didn't do anything wrong.

At least, that's my take on it. I don't like being used as an example to hurt people just by existing.

I totally see your perspective. That must be so hard for you. I honestly never really thought too much about hair types in the 3s. I just thought it was beautiful and moved on. I can't imagine how bad I would feel if someone used me to put someone else down. :grouphug:



But there IS work in straight hair. Incredible, mind-boggling work. Holding on to a thousand slippery or straight strands that don't want to stand up but won't quite lie down. Heads of hair where any escapees stand out like a sore thumb. Hair that oils itself for no good reason and leaves the top stringy but the bottom dry. Ends you can see and hair straight enough that a 1" difference from left to right is not only visible but considered highly unsightly. I don't deal with these problems. They are mysterious to me.



Also this! Totally this! I cannot do a straightie's hair to save my life. It is SO HARD. I'm used to being gentle with my hair cause it's so responsive but when I do straightie's hair, it just slips through my hands. I'm all, "waaaaaaah" the whole time. This is also why I don't straighten my hair often and why my hair looks kinda crazy when straight. I just don't know what to do. It just lays there and I don't know what it wants. (When my hair is curly, it's very vocal about what it wants)


Yes. I've got the dark dirty blonde color naturally. I darken my hair, I'm treated more professionally. Even black and teal is better. I used PPD dyes for years, causing a reaction that burned my scalp so I had no hair.
snip
No side is ideal. The number of insults directed towards my white blonde husband for wearing his 4b/c hair in locs runs towards 10 daily. Most are that white people shouldn't have locs, most of those are not from those appearing to be Caucasian.

That really sucks. For both you and your husband. For what it's worth, I love blonette hair. To me, it's sort of like a Coming of Age hair color. When you're a child, you have white blond hair. When you're an adult, you have dark blond hair. I dunno. I suppose people would find that weird. Also, I'm sure your husbands locs are lovely. I've seen a lot of people with 2-4 type hair that looks lovely with locs, regardless of race. I've never seen a 1 type head of hair with locs though. I'm not sure if I've ever seen 1a hair before either (in real life). I did once see a white girl with white blond 4b hair. It was super cool. Just goes to show that hair types are not limited by ethinicity.

MandyBeth
July 8th, 2012, 09:23 PM
My hair isn't a decent blondette color. It lightened from some pretty nasty drugs I take to control my immune system. Meh, I prefer my hair darker, curse my silly Goth tendencies.

If the woman had mid back hair that was loose, may have been my SIL. She's got amazing hair. We behave like two year olds and pet each others hair because it's so different from what we have. My hair will not loc, tried even twist and rip, blah my hair goes no thanks and falls out.

I just don't think ANY hair is magically easy to deal with. Each type has good points and random problems.

CurlyCurves
July 9th, 2012, 06:24 AM
Of course you can't judge an adult about how they style their hair (I disagree with you about actively harming a child's hair.) But this isn't about judging. The good hair/bad hair mentality stems from racism. Critiquing the mentality is critiquing the racist beliefs underlying it, not individual women who make choices about their hair for any number of reasons. Personally, I would never judge a woman with type 4 hair who chose to relax it because she liked it, or it made life easier for her, or she was treated better at work, or she had to put up with less c**p, etc... That's her decision on how to survive in this world, and it's no one's business but her own. But I can and I will critique the structure underlying these beliefs, because it is harmful.

As other people have pointed out, negative stereotypes affect a number of different hair types, with various levels of harm. Blondes face the 'dumb blonde' stereotype, for instance, as well as the more positive belief that blonde is beautiful. Critiquing the underlying belief about why blonde hair is considered more beautiful than other colors, and questioning why so many women feel the need to bleach their hair, is a completely different matter from judging a woman who decides to bleach her hair for whatever reason.

You put it perfectly.


My sister has 3b/c hair that she chemically relaxed then flat irons to 1a. She's the "ideal" blonde, people pay money for her natural color. She keeps her hair between shoulder and APL. Her hair makes her happy as it is. She doesn't like her hair curly, nor is she required to. It's her head, not mine. A stranger can't tell her hair isn't mostly straight because she cuts her hair monthly to not have damage.

I have wavy hair if I don't touch it while drying. It can reach "surly" even, slightly curly that then tends to have a mind of it's own. Yet I brush my hair while damp, I go to 1b.

If my daughter wants to have straight hair later, she'll have to use chemicals. She's just too curly, non heat methods get her to 2c.

Why should it be accepted that my blue eyed blonde white sister can do what she pleases with her hair and I can brush my hair straight , yet my deep brown eyed, black haired half Latina daughter must wear her hair curly no matter what she wants? That's just as racist - my daughter can't have straight hair because she's brown skinned. She must wear curls or she's trying to be white. What on earth makes that acceptable?

I, for one, never said that all black women who relax, relax to 'look white'. Hair doesn't make someone look white. HOWEVER, many do so to 'fit in'. They feel out of place with their natural hair. Hell, even I feel like I fit in more and get accepted more when my hair is straight. Good thing I love my curls and don't really care if some people are offended by them.

I don't know who said your daughter can't wear her hair straight because she's brownskinned, but it wasn't me.

My issue was women, in this case, black women, not wearing their natural hair. It is my opinion that I don't like chemically altered or fake hair. I am allowed to have that opinion. Just like someone is allowed to have the opinion that chemically altered or fake hair is fine. As long as I am not hurting anyone or bullying anyone over their hair, I am allowed to have my preferences.

Like I said before, there's a lot of history and struggle tied into hair when it comes to most black folks.

I mean, you do know where relaxer originated from? Have you seen the old adverts, insinuating that natural hair is 'bad' and needs to be 'relaxed'? What about the dangers ofsodium hydroxide?

I find it to be a problem that so many people in this world, regardless of race, can't accept their natural hair and will revert to dangerous or health damaging techniques to change it.


You are SO right on with this.

I've seen women prioritize their money for a weave or perm while they sink deeper in credit card debt or neglect other areas of their lives. There's too much pressure on black women to be white. They're gorgeous just being themselves.

Chris Rock had a good documentary about this.

Yeah, I watched 'Good Hair' last night. It just made me more angry. And those women irritated me;

"I don't know what I'd do without my weave!" - Ummm, you do know there's hair that grows out your head, right? And if you look after it, it'll be as long as that Indian hair on your head.

And the bit where they were talking about natural hair and being professional, and the girls were saying that they wouldn't hire someone with an afro (NB - an afro is not the only natural hair style out there. So are they just discriminating against afros or natural hair in general?) when the girl with an afro was sitting right there. She looked like she was gonna cry. If I was there, I would have said something, and then some. You can bet on that. I hope that girl didn't end up getting a perm or fake hair because of their ignorance.

And don't get me started on those pitiful excuses for Mothers relaxing their children's hair. And the stuff the children were saying? No-one even challenged it! Almost like they were proud that their 3 year old was saying that hair 'needs' to be permed.

In summary, I thought the film was poorly done. I don't like Chris Rock as it is, but I really felt like he didn't help the situation, and that he didn't touch on or challenge the issues. He just enabled them.

The good thing, however, is that Good Hair prompted a lot of black women to go natural, or so I've heard. So that's always good to me.

ravenheather
July 9th, 2012, 07:56 AM
Another version of this bashing is that girls with thin hair or fine hair that is very straight are told their hair is "stringy" and they need to "get some texture". I heard several girls being made fun of throughout school for this. It is pretty much everyone falling for the media-pushed ideal of beauty-thick, voluminous bouncy hair that runs from slightly wavy-spiraly...but not super-straight/fine hair or anything curlier/kinkier than big spirals.

This is true. I was always told that my hair was too fine, thin, and straight as a child. That it was too bad that I inherited my mom's hair and my sister got the "good" hair in the family with a little bit of body to it. I started perming my hair when I was 12. I had fried frizzy hair all through middle school and high school. Then it was short in my 20's and half my 30's. I didn't know that I have waves until a few months ago. I was also completely surprised to find that my hair is in the normal range even though on the thin side. Who knew?

I tell my daughter everyday that her curls are beautiful, as I will her sister who has straight hair so far. I want my girls to love and appreciate their natural hair.

Of the Fae
July 9th, 2012, 08:18 AM
People that have curls, want straight hair. People with straight hair want curls. I have slightly wavy straight hair, and I'd die for tight curls!
I think it's too bad many women with african hair wear weaves, because I like their natural wild curls, but so many people modify their hair, dye it, straighten it, perm it. People are prone to be unhappy with what they naturally have.

haibane
July 9th, 2012, 08:28 AM
Ambystoma Wrote:
I think wearing 4 type hair natural is gaining favour amongst african women in my area, I've seen a couple of beautifully cared for 4b ish manes around, as well as lots of pretty braided protective styles. I think it looks really stunning worn lose and big and natural, but I don't envy how much work it must be to keep it looking nice like that!

CurlyCurves Wrote:
This is quite offensive. I wish people would stop referring to type 3 and 4 hair as 'work'.

I think this type of conversation relates to a HUGE cultural and experiential rift.

For example:

When I first joined LHC, I didn't understand the hype about all the buns, updos, and hairtoy use. I've been tying my hair in buns and knots all my life. It's easy. Curly hair sticks to itself and so getting hair "up" takes very little effort. And since things like to get lost in my hair, my first hair toys were accidental. (Sticking things in my hair and watching them hang their for hours was pretty much my party trick as a kid.) So, for a long time, I just put the buns and updos into the category of a cultural thing I didn't get. Like blonde hair. There must be some cultural/regional/ethnic importance that I just still don't understand.

Then last fall, I started babysitting for my friend's daughter. She's elementary school age and has 1a/f/i-ii type hair. She adores Ms. CurlyCaps fancy hairdos and big flowers and wanted to know if I would do her hair just like mine.

I figured: Easy. Updos are easy.

It wasn't until I had all that slippery mess in my hands that I realized that there is an art to working with straight hair. I realized that just as there were a million "tricks" to making my hair behave, there are a million tricks to getting straighter hair to behave. However, whereas curly-heads tend to refer to our hair-care needs as "extra necessary steps", straight-haired folk just do what their hair needs. Maybe it doesn't seem as strange because they are taught by their friends and family around them. Maybe that makes the extra steps seem routine.

But there IS work in straight hair. Incredible, mind-boggling work. Holding on to a thousand slippery or straight strands that don't want to stand up but won't quite lie down. Heads of hair where any escapees stand out like a sore thumb. Hair that oils itself for no good reason and leaves the top stringy but the bottom dry. Ends you can see and hair straight enough that a 1" difference from left to right is not only visible but considered highly unsightly. I don't deal with these problems. They are mysterious to me.

Working with my friends daughter made me realize that everyone with healthy hair WORKS HARD for their hair. It's just that the tools and approaches are different..and maybe we get anesthetized to the work we do all the time because it's routine.

(Sorry if that was ramble and my point got lost. I just wanted to speak about how I can understand how people see curly hair as work even though to me it seems so simple....and yet it can be irritating when people think I go to amazing lengths to have healthy curls.)

Thank you for this post! I never even thought about straight hair like that. I used to wash my hair daily and brush it every hour to keep it from going tangly/stringy. But I never thought of that as any kind of work, just the bare minimum upkeep. Switching to curly inspired methods (heavy on moisture and no brushing/minimal touching between washes) seems low maintenance compared.

And I was always the one who wasn't stylish and not very interested in my looks. The things my stylish relatives with similar hair type would do... daily shampoo, blow dry, heat styling, back combing, gel/mousse, spray, and then the inevitable monthly trips to the salon to deal with the damage (barely get to shoulder with that routine and this hair type anyway) and then some highlights or dye or why not a perm while they're there anyway...

But I never heard any of them call their hair high maintenance, or complain about how much work they had to put into it. It's just what you do, to be stylish, or in some cases even to be professional... because flat mousey hair is seen as frumpy at best, unkempt at worst. I've had a LOT of comments to the tune of "oh, if you did something with your hair it would be pretty." lol.

And one of the reasons I never "did something" is well, updos, oh geez... When I found LHC I had not even tried to pony my hair in years and years. Stubborn slippery hair and an overly sensitive scalp is just.. gaah. Even with all the tricks I learned on LHC I can at best get it to stay up for a couple of hours if I mist it right before I put it up.

Once in my teens I let a hair obsessed scissor happy friend use me as her guinea pig to try to "do something." I think we both ended up learning the hard way the slogan of the thin and fine thread on here... short thin hair... is still thin. lol.

Elithia
July 9th, 2012, 09:32 AM
I've had a LOT of comments to the tune of "oh, if you did something with your hair it would be pretty." lol.

I think people with all different hair textures get this.

But it's true -- my medium-curly hair is vastly easier to take care of than my mother's 1b-ish hair.

One of my cousins is biracial with, I think, 3c/4a curls, and about five years ago she went through a year-long phase where she wore it natural. I lived with her at the time and know that she essentially left it alone. And now she's gone back to relaxing, straightening, dying, frying, extending, and spends four times as much time on it as she did before. She says she hates curly hair. And I can see that living as she does in a mostly-white family (albeit with half her female relatives curly and natural, even if less tightly so than she) she feels singled out by her hair.

Then again, I have another (black) middle school-age cousin who has gorgeous 4c hair she has never cut. She went through a phase where she tried to wear it straightened (she never permanently relaxed it) but now she's on the curly bandwagon and she says she loves it because for the first time in her life she can wear it down and when it poofs -- as it does -- and not feel like it's 'ruining' her hair.

I'm a very much white girl so I can't really speak to the race issues involved -- although I do know white girls in the 4 range who feel the straightening pressure. But I will say that both my cousins felt pressure to straighten/relax not because curly hair is more work (for both of them it's much, much, much less work), but because they felt it singled them out.

And as an addendum: I live in a community mainly white, Hispanic, and American Indian, and straight hair is and has been The Thing for as long as I can remember. The most common comment I got on my hair in high school was: "Wow, your hair is awesome and curly! You should straighten it!"

I always laughed it off. But it's a weird kind of social pressure and I'm guessing it's only greater the curlier you get.

Changling
July 9th, 2012, 09:55 AM
May I have a little rant? It may be cathartic, and I can hear your views also.

Okay, so my Auntie just seriously peed me off. We were watching the news, me somewhat absent mindedly :p, and this black athlete was talking. I mentioned, in passing, that she was really pretty, but I'd much prefer if she was natural. Fake hair just ruins the look for me.

Anyway, so my Auntie said;

"But you don't know what her hair's like. It's easy for you, you've got nice hair. Some people don't have nice hair".

Then she went on to mention her friend who has 'pepper grains' (her words, not mine) and lots of shrinkage, saying "how is she meant to brush her hair every day?". (*facepalm*)

:steam:steam

For. Pete's. Sake.

I love my Auntie to bits, but that was a hell of an ignorant thing to say. It's basically 'good hair vs bad hair'.

I don't give a damn - healthy hair is good hair. Some people have preferences for certain textures, curl patterns (or lack of one), colour, etc. THAT'S FINE. But there is NO one hair type that is universally ugly, or 'bad', or 'not nice', or whatever.

It just makes me angry and sad. So many black ladies are afraid to go natural, or are told they can't 'cos 'they don't have nice hair', and that's not fair. So, they should suffocate their hair under ugly weaves or apply freakin' lye to it to make it straight, just because their hair is 'not nice'? BULLCRAP.

/rant.

I TOTALLY agree with what you are saying here. I would apply it to anything about a person's appearance, too, not just their hair. I don't have the genes for a flat belly - even when I was underweight I had a little bump under my belly button, like always. After years and years of hating it and hiding it and doing a TON of situps and biking and eating super healthy, now I know that 1) I should do all that regardless of my image, because it makes me feel awesome, and 2) I JUST DON'T HAVE A FLAT BELLY and that's ok. Since then, I can see my body for what it is - a very feminine, softly curving figure that is very beautiful in its own way. I also have a very defined, high nose bridge that rises from my face like the blade of a knife (my dad is part Cherokee), which I used to think was just plain bad, for a girl anyway, and could never be pretty. Now I think it looks wild and fey, especially with my cheekbones and pointed chin.

I think absolutely everyone is beautiful in their own way, yes physically, yes even those with big noses and ears that stick out, etc. All the things that are defined by our society as "ugly" can be beautiful. The ugliest face I've ever seen was a classically beautiful face wearing an ugly scowl.

CurlyCurves
July 13th, 2012, 07:02 PM
The most common comment I got on my hair in high school was: "Wow, your hair is awesome and curly! You should straighten it!"

I always laughed it off. But it's a weird kind of social pressure and I'm guessing it's only greater the curlier you get.

I totally relate to this. Everytime I straighten my hair, people are so shocked and surprised. They say stuff like "your hair is so beautiful straight!" etc.

It kinda hurts because, although my hair does look beautiful straight, and I do suit straight hair, I want my natural curls to get the attention they deserve too. They're not ugly. I've had a lot of people tell me I look nicer with my hair straight too. The other day I was feeling quite sad that my hair isn't 1a. I'd never straighten it excessively or chemically alter it to be that way, because I value healthy hair over all, but I still feel kinda sad about it. I hope that feeling goes once it's longer. Hip length curly hair will be awesome.

LoveAngelBeauty
July 14th, 2012, 03:25 PM
You put it perfectly.


And don't get me started on those pitiful excuses for Mothers relaxing their children's hair. And the stuff the children were saying? No-one even challenged it! Almost like they were proud that their 3 year old was saying that hair 'needs' to be permed.

In summary, I thought the film was poorly done. I don't like Chris Rock as it is, but I really felt like he didn't help the situation, and that he didn't touch on or challenge the issues. He just enabled them.

The good thing, however, is that Good Hair prompted a lot of black women to go natural, or so I've heard. So that's always good to me.

I wouldn't be so harsh about all the mothers out there who relax or relaxed their kids hair. My mother is a huge proponent of natural hair. However, she relaxed my hair as a child. Why? Because that's what she was taught to do. Because a lot of black women haven't been taught to care for natural black hair. Because it was normal and everyone did it. Because it was not considered to be an unhealthy thing. Because it made it easier to deal with my hair.

I'm natural now but even I often want to cry in frustration over my hair. Because it's thick and very tightly curled, because it does the exact opposite of what I would prefer most of the time.

If a mother is relaxing her child's hair, I am not going to demonize her. The most that I will do is point her toward the many resources on the web for caring for natural hair, but judge for her decision (that is a result of many complicated reasons), I will not. And I don't think you should either.

I have not seen Good Hair and am not sure I even want to because of all the bad things I've heard about it, but the Natural movement was going long and strong before it came about.

Micayla47
July 14th, 2012, 05:11 PM
i agree with the OP curlycurves. i'm just now at 47 going natural in many areas of my "beauty" regimen and i totally support anyone who chooses to go natural and put their health and well-being above "beauty." that being said, i don't judge women (or men) for what they do regarding hair, make-up, plastic surgery, etc. because i've been there and learned the hard way.

and one more thought about social pressure to have a particular hair type, color or whatever, it seems to me that it's incredibly arbitrary and therefore subject to change. so who decides? is it fashion magazines? celebrities? MTV? and curlycurves, your hair is gorgeous! don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Vani1902
July 14th, 2012, 05:45 PM
I totally relate to this. Everytime I straighten my hair, people are so shocked and surprised. They say stuff like "your hair is so beautiful straight!" etc.

It kinda hurts because, although my hair does look beautiful straight, and I do suit straight hair, I want my natural curls to get the attention they deserve too. They're not ugly. I've had a lot of people tell me I look nicer with my hair straight too. The other day I was feeling quite sad that my hair isn't 1a. I'd never straighten it excessively or chemically alter it to be that way, because I value healthy hair over all, but I still feel kinda sad about it. I hope that feeling goes once it's longer. Hip length curly hair will be awesome.
Well, your hair looks awesome. I love it!!!
I have gotten the "you should straighten your hair" comments all my life. I have learned to shrug it off. Where I am from, everyone wants to have straight hair. Eh...I don't want to fit it.Literally, every girl I know has straight hair.Only 1 or 2 of my friends are not afraid to embrace their curls. At a young age, I realized that this is the hair that I was meant to have. It's part of me. People's opinions should mean anything. As a result, I haven't straightened it in about 3 or 4 years.
When you feel sad about your hair, go to UrbanBushBabes.com .
That website is pure inspiration.

lacefrost
July 15th, 2012, 07:41 AM
I totally relate to this. Everytime I straighten my hair, people are so shocked and surprised. They say stuff like "your hair is so beautiful straight!" etc.

It kinda hurts because, although my hair does look beautiful straight, and I do suit straight hair, I want my natural curls to get the attention they deserve too. They're not ugly. I've had a lot of people tell me I look nicer with my hair straight too. The other day I was feeling quite sad that my hair isn't 1a. I'd never straighten it excessively or chemically alter it to be that way, because I value healthy hair over all, but I still feel kinda sad about it. I hope that feeling goes once it's longer. Hip length curly hair will be awesome.

It will go away once it gets longer. When my hair was your length, I always longed for swishy locks because my hair felt so short and plain and dumb. Now that it's grown, yeah when curly it looks APL, but I know it's longer. And when I straighten it, I think, "Oh yeah, I'm totally gonna leave it straight for a month," and I'm lucky if I can make it 2 weeks.

And while compliments from strangers are nice, I feel confident enough about my hair at this point to not need them. I know what my hair is and isn't. I know some people won't like my hair because it's coarse or because it's curly and that's fine. It's my hair and I wear it to suit me. I also prefer not to get too many compliments because it stars up a lot of discussion about my hair and, "oh how do you get it that curly?" and I end up in the Dumbest Comments thread.

PrincessBob
July 18th, 2012, 12:23 PM
I haven't read the whole thread. Apologies in advance if I repeat anything.

I admire all hair that is cared for. Heck, I also admire hair that is unkempt on some people. ^.~

I didn't know how to deal with thick hair when I was young and often ended up with mats. I wouldn't say I have "good hair," but I've certainly learned to work with what I've got.

Your aunt seems to expect some "universal ideal" that hair has to be smooth, whether curly or straight. My grandfather is Cherokee, and my mother takes after grandpa when it comes to her hair. It it coarse and thick, she perms the crap out of it, because she says it's easier to care for that way, because her wiry native locks won't lay or do as they are told. Personally, I think it looks a great deal better on her when she let's it relax back to natural, even if it is wiry, but I guess, what matters is what she wants from her hair. What is unfair in my opinion is that society expects any part of us to fit a universal mold of beauty.

I mean, my liver may never be perfectly shaped on it's own and perhaps the color is a tinge less bright than the one I saw on that transplant documentary, yet nobody seems to care. However, if everyone had a visible window into their abdomens, would we all be expected to have an ideal shape, tone of liver? You bet they would, if the media had any say in the matter.

You can have an ideal of beauty, even if you personally don't fit it. You can also alter your image to come closer to that ideal, if you'd like. But, you are not required to aspire to my ideal of beauty nor anybody else's. You should aspire to be as happy and healthy as you can be inside and out.

CurlyCurves
July 21st, 2012, 05:46 AM
I wouldn't be so harsh about all the mothers out there who relax or relaxed their kids hair. My mother is a huge proponent of natural hair. However, she relaxed my hair as a child. Why? Because that's what she was taught to do. Because a lot of black women haven't been taught to care for natural black hair. Because it was normal and everyone did it. Because it was not considered to be an unhealthy thing. Because it made it easier to deal with my hair.

I'm natural now but even I often want to cry in frustration over my hair. Because it's thick and very tightly curled, because it does the exact opposite of what I would prefer most of the time.

If a mother is relaxing her child's hair, I am not going to demonize her. The most that I will do is point her toward the many resources on the web for caring for natural hair, but judge for her decision (that is a result of many complicated reasons), I will not. And I don't think you should either.

I have not seen Good Hair and am not sure I even want to because of all the bad things I've heard about it, but the Natural movement was going long and strong before it came about.

I am glad you can be so graceful about it, but I can't. I believe it is abusive to apply chemicals to a child's head. I'd feel the same way if white Mothers were perming or dying their kid's hair.

I was never taught how to look after my hair either. I get frustrated with my hair also. It is a lot of work to look after a whole head of hair and your own.

But if it's not your hair, you don't have a right to ruin it or apply damaging substances to it.


i agree with the OP curlycurves. i'm just now at 47 going natural in many areas of my "beauty" regimen and i totally support anyone who chooses to go natural and put their health and well-being above "beauty." that being said, i don't judge women (or men) for what they do regarding hair, make-up, plastic surgery, etc. because i've been there and learned the hard way.

and one more thought about social pressure to have a particular hair type, color or whatever, it seems to me that it's incredibly arbitrary and therefore subject to change. so who decides? is it fashion magazines? celebrities? MTV? and curlycurves, your hair is gorgeous! don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

I believe it totally is too. The fashion is constantly changing, and it doesn't stick around for long. One thing that's stayed constant, though. The natural 'look' may be in, but natural hair isn't. Curly hair always seems to have some negative stereotype hidden away, somewhere.

Thank you :)


Well, your hair looks awesome. I love it!!!
I have gotten the "you should straighten your hair" comments all my life. I have learned to shrug it off. Where I am from, everyone wants to have straight hair. Eh...I don't want to fit it.Literally, every girl I know has straight hair.Only 1 or 2 of my friends are not afraid to embrace their curls. At a young age, I realized that this is the hair that I was meant to have. It's part of me. People's opinions should mean anything. As a result, I haven't straightened it in about 3 or 4 years.
When you feel sad about your hair, go to UrbanBushBabes.com .
That website is pure inspiration.

Thank you!

Well done for not straightening for 4 years! That's amazing.

I've just given up heat. Kinda sad about it, because I love having my hair straight, but I have experienced curl loosening from my last flat iron :(


It will go away once it gets longer. When my hair was your length, I always longed for swishy locks because my hair felt so short and plain and dumb. Now that it's grown, yeah when curly it looks APL, but I know it's longer. And when I straighten it, I think, "Oh yeah, I'm totally gonna leave it straight for a month," and I'm lucky if I can make it 2 weeks.

And while compliments from strangers are nice, I feel confident enough about my hair at this point to not need them. I know what my hair is and isn't. I know some people won't like my hair because it's coarse or because it's curly and that's fine. It's my hair and I wear it to suit me. I also prefer not to get too many compliments because it stars up a lot of discussion about my hair and, "oh how do you get it that curly?" and I end up in the Dumbest Comments thread.

Yeah, I think it will too. My hair, in the past week or so, has suddenly decided to look longer and fuller, and it makes me feel great! I know I'll feel even better when it's tumbling down my back :D

carolinaberry
July 24th, 2012, 12:22 AM
This is quite offensive. I wish people would stop referring to type 3 and 4 hair as 'work'.

I agree with this. My daughter went through a phase where she wanted to straighten her hair...so I would flat iron her hair for her once a month or so. (I refused to let her get a chemical relaxer, though we did get scammed into a keratin treatment) The effort to make her hair look good straight-the opposite of its natural state-was much more work than it is now that she's back to embracing her curls. And she gets the added benefit of knowing that her hair isn't being fried.

I think generally speaking, once someone knows the best routine to work with her own hair type, the care is much easier than whatever she was doing to make it look like some other ideal.

goldielocs
July 26th, 2012, 05:38 AM
I don't mean to offend but what do you think of braids and dreadlocks? Do you think people adopt those styles because they dislike their natural texture? I think these are beautiful and healthy hair styles.

I feel that no one should be criticized for their hair choices, whether they go along with societal norms or not. But I get where you're coming from, it is infuriating to be told that your hair is not "okay" because it's too big/textured/whatever. I just don't bother arguing with anyone anymore about my personal decision to leave my hair natural. It's so hard to get ignorant people to see any other way.

To your question about locks and braids...

I've been natural since 1997 and have had my current set of locs for 10 years. Locs and braids are protective styles for any hair type. I don't think they express any dislike for ones natural hair texture. I got more kickback for locing than I did for going natural.

I had to deal with the "bad hair/ good hair" thing, but that was before being natural was "in style" in my neck of the country. I'm glad the awareness is there now, but I wonder if people who are on the natural hair band wagon ever thought to apologize to those they bashed when they were the ones looking down on naturals. I put them in the same boat as those from an older generation who look down on "bad hair." They were/are afraid their hair and most people express fear by making hateful/negative statements about the thing they fear.

Pray for them all and keep it moving.

I say, each one teach one. Since family and friends have seen how healthy my hair is, I've had 4 cousins go natural, my sister is transitioning, my daughter has locs down her back, and 2 friends are now natural. I don't take all credit for it, but I like to think seeing me comfortable with my hair helped them be comfortable with theirs.

Springlets
July 27th, 2012, 12:10 PM
I know this may be a weak comparison, but a lot of white women experience this if they have naturally dark blonde hair. I'd swear it is considered the least desirable hair color in America. You can see it in the way the nicknames of the color- dirty blonde, dishwater blonde, colorless, mousy, street dog color (I heard this is what they call it in Denmark). I also heard once, "they have a hair dye for that color only for those women who need to dye back to their roots, because no one else would want it." Although it seems to be only undesirable if you are white and it is your natural color. Many black and hispanic celebrities are able to wear dark blonde colors and even white women with naturally darker hair can lighten it to dark blonde. But if you're a white woman who had light blonde hair and then it darkened, well you better get to a salon quick and put some highlights in, otherwise it is just unacceptable. I sometimes hear about mothers doing this to their young girls at night while their asleep and oh, how I hate that. I will never do that to my child and will encourage them to never bleach their hair.

Case in point, from this thread.

In response to the question: Do you dye your hair because you think it's ugly? [paraphrasing]


Yes. I've got the dark dirty blonde color naturally.

She simply says the color of her hair, with the connotation that everyone understands that this is an undesirable color, so naturally she should dye it.

I can also empathize since I have had curly hair and have had many employers ask me to "do something about it". :mad:

Angelistarr
September 26th, 2012, 05:49 PM
There is such a history behind the good hair vs bad hair argument it's just tiring.

Personally, I've gone to school with black and West Indian girls all my life and I've heard the argument too many times to even care any more but I do agree. The majority of girls who are natural have beautiful coils/kinks to be flaunting but instead are embarrassed or forced into using wigs or relaxing their hair because its what culturally accepted. Thankfully, this idea is slowly changing and I'm seeing A LOT more women taking care of their natural hair and no longer relaxing their hair or damaging it with glue on weaves and wigs, etc.
at the end of the day though, even if the comment was ignorant it is bout personal preference even if its poorly thought out or based on society's idea of who we should look like

gnome82
September 26th, 2012, 06:37 PM
I think it is sad that any person would believe that their natural hair is not beautiful. Some of my Aunties have taken up wearing long straight wigs. It makes them happy :). I miss seeing their fros :(.

Alun
September 26th, 2012, 11:33 PM
Of course, not everything is about aping Westerners, you're absolutely right about that.

I am speaking from the point of view of someone of South Asian descent. While India has some serious color problems that pre-date colonialism, British colonialism certainly exacerbated things.

Also, with the caste system there is a (really terrible) joke that when there is a light skinned person in a lower caste or a dark skinned person in an upper caste, someone's mother was getting frisky with someone who wasn't her husband. That pretty much indicates that the colorism isn't a matter of getting tan from manual labor and if we all huddled inside in luxury, we'd all be the same color. It indicates pretty clearly that is the idea that the caste system is broken along ethnic lines--even if that is completely false, the idea persists.

In that sense, skin lightening remains more of a racial/ethnic issue than not. The racial aspect is more pronounced in countries that had a strong colonial presence as can be seen in some Latin American and Caribbean countries.

As I understand it, the earlier wave of people who settled in India were the Dravidians, who are considered to be Australoids, i.e the same race of people as the Australian Aborigines, who are very dark skinned. The next group to settle the subcontinent from the North and West were Caucasoid, i.e. white, more or less, and used to be referred to as Aryans, but since the Nazis misused that label in their bizarre theories (I don't think they had blonde hair and blue eyes, for one thing!) are now referred to by scholars as Indo-Europeans. The two groups must have interbred a lot, because not that many Indians could be described as entirely white or black.

So, I had read that people were darker in the South of India than in the North, which makes sense given the above, but hadn't necessarily realised that those lower in the Hindu caste system tended to be darker. That makes sense too, though, because the later-arrived group would have tended to take over society. That's generally the way it goes. Each wave of invaders in Britain took control from those who were already there, for example. And I am a Brit, BTW. I apologise for our taking over India, and I can certainly see how it must have exacerbated existing prejudices over skin colour.

Human origins and anthropology interest me, and I read a lot of articles, but I have no qualifications in the subject.