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View Full Version : Utah Judge Orders Mother to Cut Her Daughter’s Ponytail as Part of ****ty Public Puni



MoonLover
June 25th, 2012, 08:07 PM
Really?! I don't even know what to say to this (http://jezebel.com/5920853/utah-judge-orders-mother-to-cut-her-daughters-ponytail-as-part-of-****ty-public-punishment)

Bene
June 25th, 2012, 08:10 PM
I agree with the judge.



Also, he didn't order it. He gave the mother a choice. Which is more than they gave the mother of the little girl they assaulted. Then again I heard about this case from a more objective source, without the outrage and expletives.

lapushka
June 25th, 2012, 08:13 PM
This topic isn't new, and was posted a while ago. I agree with the judge also. You know what they did to the toddler, right?

christine1989
June 25th, 2012, 08:20 PM
This seems insane to me. I don't agree at all and am not even sure why this had to be settled in court. The article didn't go into much detail about exactly what this girl did but it certainly does not sound serious enough to warrant a court case. In my view, hair is a part of your body. It would be wrong to order any other part of her body to be cut off and it's wrong to order her hair cut off.

Shiranshoku
June 25th, 2012, 08:25 PM
Errr... 13 year old kid and a toddler...and this goes to court? Seriously? What a waste of time and resources.

Bene
June 25th, 2012, 08:27 PM
This seems insane to me. I don't agree at all and am not even sure why this had to be settled in court. The article didn't go into much detail about exactly what this girl did but it certainly does not sound serious enough to warrant a court case. In my view, hair is a part of your body. It would be wrong to order any other part of her body to be cut off and it's wrong to order her hair cut off.



They led a 3 year old girl away and chopped her hair off. It was premeditaded, as they asked a McDonald's employee for scissors and when that didn't happen, they went out and bought a pair.


And they have a history of making harrassing (and disturbing) phonecalls. Apparently they don't know what's acceptable and what isn't. I think shaming them is a fair way to teach hem that their actions have consequences. I think the judge was too easy on them. I would have made them parade in front of McDonald's with a placard that states "I assaulted a small child" in addition to the hair cuts.


Honestly, 13 years old is old enough to know to keep your hands to yourself. That's a skill you're supposed to master in pre-k.

Mrsbaybeegurl
June 25th, 2012, 08:28 PM
This seems insane to me. I don't agree at all and am not even sure why this had to be settled in court. The article didn't go into much detail about exactly what this girl did but it certainly does not sound serious enough to warrant a court case. In my view, hair is a part of your body. It would be wrong to order any other part of her body to be cut off and it's wrong to order her hair cut off.

The girl hacked off a little child's hair as form of harassment and bullying...let the punishment fit the crime! It was to show her how devastating it is to have your hair hacked off without your consent, but the judge didn't force the mother, she was given a choice and SIGNIFICANTLY cut down the girl's community service hours by agreeing to do so. The mother could have said no...unfortunately the little girl who was assaulted didn't have the choice or anything to gain!

MoonLover
June 25th, 2012, 08:33 PM
Sorry, I didn't realize this was old news.

Well, since they gave the mother the option of cut for a cut I wonder if they would do it for other crimes?

MoonLover
June 25th, 2012, 08:34 PM
I also wish I could change the title of this thread. I didn't realize how bad it was:(

lapushka
June 25th, 2012, 08:34 PM
Exactly. Let's not forget they assaulted a toddler. In sharp contrast to that, the 13-year old had her hair voluntarily chopped off to reduce her community service. She had a *choice*!

christine1989
June 25th, 2012, 08:36 PM
It was absolutely wrong for them to cut a little kid's hair however I would still say that the fault was more with the parents. At 3 years old the parents should have been keeping an eye on her. Bad stuff happens when you leave kids unsupervised.

I also have an issue with the fact that it sounds like this 13 year old did not seem to have a choice in the matter of cutting her hair. From the article it sounds like it was the mom's choice to either cut her daughter's hair or not. Even at 13 the girl should have made her own choice in her punishment.

Thenolegirl
June 25th, 2012, 08:39 PM
The Judge is awesome! I totally agree with him. And she did have a choice.

People want to be irresponsible and not have consequences for their actions.

Mrsbaybeegurl
June 25th, 2012, 08:40 PM
It was absolutely wrong for them to cut a little kid's hair however I would still say that the fault was more with the parents. At 3 years old the parents should have been keeping an eye on her. Bad stuff happens when you leave kids unsupervised.

Parents are not allowed to climb inside of the playplace they can only be in the area...I'm pretty sure this was not stemming from neglect. Why do we continue to make victims even more victimized...if anyone wasn't watching their child it was the teenagers parents!

ladyfey
June 25th, 2012, 08:51 PM
I totally agree with the punishment, I would have buzzed my daughter's hair if my kid tortured a toddler like that. Taking a 3 years old's innocence and trust in people away for laughs? Uh-uh, the teenager got off easy in my book!

christine1989
June 25th, 2012, 08:56 PM
Parents are not allowed to climb inside of the playplace they can only be in the area...I'm pretty sure this was not stemming from neglect. Why do we continue to make victims even more victimized...if anyone wasn't watching their child it was the teenagers parents!

Definitely, I was referring to both children's parents. It also sounds like someone sold or gave this girl scissors... Either way, if at least one responsible adult had been supervising then this would not have occurred. We also have no idea if she did this out of malicious intent or not.

Macaroni
June 25th, 2012, 09:02 PM
Definitely, I was referring to both children's parents. It also sounds like someone sold or gave this girl scissors... Either way, if at least one responsible adult had been supervising then this would not have occurred. We also have no idea if she did this out of malicious intent or not.


What other intent could there be?

EvaSimone
June 25th, 2012, 09:04 PM
I agree with the judge. I am hoping that the 13 year old learns from this experience.

Vanille_
June 25th, 2012, 09:05 PM
I don't see anything wrong with it. I used to have a shoplifting problem as a kid. Even when I got caught and had to do community service and pay fines (mom paid fines), I didnt learn. It was not until my car and identity was stolen as a teenager that I realized theft is plain wrong.

leslissocool
June 25th, 2012, 09:06 PM
Definitely, I was referring to both children's parents. It also sounds like someone sold or gave this girl scissors... Either way, if at least one responsible adult had been supervising then this would not have occurred. We also have no idea if she did this out of malicious intent or not.

Hacking a little girl's hair behind her parent's back is completely malicious, specially if they hack it and laugh about it. My friend had this done to her, she got pressured into letting her hair get cut at a sleep-over. She cried so much about it even if she let it happen, we were 5. We never went to the other girl's house again, all the parents were PISSED (except for the girl who did it, her parents seemed to think it was just a game), in fact, I ended up in a fist fight with her because she was bullying a new girl in elementary school. Bully behavior.

I agree 100% with the judge. Seriously, those girls were completely out of line and I'm glad the mother picked to cut the girl's hair publicly to reduce the sentence. How on earth do you go around cutting a 3 year old's hair?

Had they done it to my child, I'd had personally hacked their off. Really, don't EVER come near my kid with scissors, that's assault.

Mrsbaybeegurl
June 25th, 2012, 09:10 PM
Also, In the same court hearing, this teenage girl was also being charged for an incident over the phone where she threatened mutilation and rape to a girl in Colorado...she is clearly a very violent child and in need of learning some rough consequences for her actions...cutting off her hair was only part of her sentence and it got her off the hook of 150 hours of community service, I'm with others who say she got off easy!

Bene
June 25th, 2012, 09:11 PM
I totally agree with the punishment, I would have buzzed my daughter's hair if my kid tortured a toddler like that. Taking a 3 years old's innocence and trust in people away for laughs? Uh-uh, the teenager got off easy in my book!

I was thinking this. My brat would have shown up in court bald headed already. And not neatly buzzed either.

leslissocool
June 25th, 2012, 09:20 PM
Also, In the same court hearing, this teenage girl was also being charged for an incident over the phone where she threatened mutilation and rape to a girl in Colorado...she is clearly a very violent child and in need of learning some rough consequences for her actions...cutting off her hair was only part of her sentence and it got her off the hook of 150 hours of community service, I'm with others who say she got off easy!

Wow... This girl got off way too easy...

Micayla47
June 25th, 2012, 09:24 PM
I agree with the judge.



Also, he didn't order it. He gave the mother a choice. Which is more than they gave the mother of the little girl they assaulted. Then again I heard about this case from a more objective source, without the outrage and expletives.
well said!

SerinaDaith
June 25th, 2012, 09:43 PM
I would have to hope that someone else caught the kid(s) that tried that sort of thing with one of my children, I may well come unglued, oh no she got a hair cut poor baby. Whatever she needs help, kids acting out this young are looking for attention for a reason the parents of the older girls should be looked at harshly as well for all of this, granted I am a helicopter mom with my young but I don't let my kids out of my sight for any period of time and I have three ranging in age from 11 to 1. I am a busy momma but people will not get a chance to hurt my kids when they are in my care? What if these preteen monsters had something else in mind with those scissors? It makes me sick.

teela1978
June 25th, 2012, 09:55 PM
Utah always has the craziest news :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I agree with this punishment actually. Like others have mentioned, it got her out of an actual punishment and it feels much too much like an eye for an eye. Its not the type of justice I'd prefer to see. It sounds like the girl has issues and could use some therapy more than a haircut.

blondebazinga
June 25th, 2012, 10:27 PM
Ok, I get the whole eye for an eye thing, but forcing someone to cut there hair is just against human rights. Honestly how did this end up in court? It's just a teen cutting of a toddlers hair, it just shows how energy is so easily wasted :slap:

Mrsbaybeegurl
June 25th, 2012, 10:40 PM
Ok, I get the whole eye for an eye thing, but forcing someone to cut there hair is just against human rights. Honestly how did this end up in court? It's just a teen cutting of a toddlers hair, it just shows how energy is so easily wasted :slap:

Ok, I get the whole eye for an eye thing, but forcing someone to cut there hair is just against human rights. Honestly how did this end up in court? It's just a teen cutting of a toddlers hair, it just shows how energy is so easily wasted :slap:

I had to quote twice just to contrast the double mindeness in this post. BTW she was never FORCED to cut her hair off...the judge never ordered it...it was a choice and got her off the hook to the tune of 150hrs of community service. And no that's not all the trial was about...if you had read this thread or a few news articles on it you would know more details.

Vanille_
June 25th, 2012, 10:54 PM
forcing someone to cut there hair is just against human rights.

We cut hair in prisons and the military.

Kaelee
June 25th, 2012, 11:04 PM
Plus it was the mother's CHOICE to cut her daughter's hair. Whether we like it or not, a 13 year old's mother still has the legal right to get their kid's hair cut in any way they see fit (though I think by that age it really should be up to the kid in most circumstances but that's a whole nother topic.)

christyrose
June 25th, 2012, 11:05 PM
Parents are not allowed to climb inside of the playplace they can only be in the area...I'm pretty sure this was not stemming from neglect. Why do we continue to make victims even more victimized...if anyone wasn't watching their child it was the teenagers parents!
Yeah and 13 year olds are too big for a play area anyway. Honestly a 13 and a 11 year old are way old enough to know better. Heck my 3 year old just chopped little 18 month old sisters top hair off. The first thing I asked him is if he wanted me to chop his hair off just like his sisters and he was upset at the thought of it. He knew what he did was wrong, and that he was going to get in trouble for it. I told him if he did it again I would be cutting his hair to match what he did to his sisters, and that it was going to look bad. When I read this article I completely agree with the judges ruling, he didnt force it, but he asked and the mom agreed. I mean honestly if my 11 year old did something so horrible to a 3 year old, went out and purposely bought the scissors etc... I would have asked the mom of the 3 year old to let her 3 year old cut my daughters hair right then and there, and payed generously for the little girls hair to be cut at a top salon. Sounds like the parents dont have control of their teens at all though because what teen in their right mind would do this? I get being mean to a peer and doing that to a peers hair more than I get doing it to a little 3 year old girl. Not that I would be ok or condone either, but still, its just flat out assault. Your hair is part of who you are, and if that was an adult that did that to the little girl that would be facing assault charges and jail time guaranteed!

christyrose
June 25th, 2012, 11:18 PM
Oh my goodness... just read the article and it says this girl had already at 13 had issues with calling and threatening another girl with rape and mutilation... I think something had to be done or else she wouldnt stop... I am sure the other sentence she got wasnt enough so this one hopefully was to keep her out of jail and from doing other horrible things.

Milui Elenath
June 26th, 2012, 12:27 AM
What I find sad (not in anyway dismissing the assault of a child which is horrendous) is that this 13 year old clearly needs help and it probably isn't being offered it. She is only being punished and of course she should be but I wonder if anything is being done at all to offer her the help she clearly needs. A 13 year old doesn't just become like this - is she acting out things that have been done to her for example? Has she witnessed these things? If she isn't offered this help now what might she do next?

And I absolutely believe this should go to court! A 13 year old assaulting a 3 year old. That is a crime and it shouldn't be swept under the carpet. How else could this have been dealt with? I am assuming that the families didn't know each other, I suppose you might work out between yourselves otherwise but I don't think I would be comfortable walking away with the possibly empty promises of apology or punishment from a stranger if it was my 3 year old that was attacked.

christyrose
June 26th, 2012, 12:33 AM
What I find sad (not in anyway dismissing the assault of a child which is horrendous) is that this 13 year old clearly needs help and it probably isn't being offered it. She is only being punished and of course she should be but I wonder if anything is being done at all to offer her the help she clearly needs. A 13 year old doesn't just become like this - is she acting out things that have been done to her for example? Has she witnessed these things? If she isn't offered this help now what might she do next?

And I absolutely believe this should go to court! A 13 year old assaulting a 3 year old. That is a crime and it shouldn't be swept under the carpet. How else could this have been dealt with? I am assuming that the families didn't know each other, I suppose you might work out between yourselves otherwise but I don't think I would be comfortable walking away with the possibly empty promises of apology or punishment from a stranger if it was my 3 year old that was attacked.
I agree. I would have done something and settled it right then and there, but maybe the parents werent around and only found out after they were called by the lawyer of the 3 year olds mom. I wouldnt be letting my 11 or 13 year old to wander around alone either way. I do agree that she should have to get counseling based on her other offenses too. I do think that we wont be having an issue with her cutting anyone elses hair though! It sounds like the mom from the article was not mad enough at her daughter about this, I just wonder if the child ever feels she is truly responsible for herself or if mom finds a way to blame the other child or the court or something other than her daughter all the time.

McFearless
June 26th, 2012, 12:40 AM
I think the practice of an eye for an eye is disturbing. Even if it was one of two options. I think the person should have completed something that contributes positively, such as community service.

McFearless
June 26th, 2012, 12:48 AM
Someone in this thread said they also made threats of rape and other violent acts towards another person in the past. This person is obviously in need of honest help. I think court ordered therapy and community service would be much more appropriate. Putting in hours of deserved work and also improving yourself. Getting your hair cut off isn't appropriate. It still gives a young girl (13) the impression that what happens to her body is not her choice. I don't think young preteen girls need their right to body autonomy taken away, even if they've failed to respect that in another. This doesn't correct that behavior but perpetuates it.

Vanille_
June 26th, 2012, 12:53 AM
Speaking as someone who was sentenced as a teen with community service for two crimes - I can tell you that isnt a harsh enough sentence. I didn't gain anything from it. It was just working for free and I was just mad that I couldn't hang out with my friends. It didn't make me come to the conclusion that what I did was wrong.

If I was the mom, I'd also let the three year old cut my daughter's hair.

Also, the girl obviously needs help. I have to wonder what steps if any the mother has taken to help her.

McFearless
June 26th, 2012, 12:55 AM
Speaking as someone who was sentenced as a teen with community service for two crimes - I can tell you that isnt a harsh enough sentence. I didn't gain anything from it. It was just working for free and I was just mad that I couldn't hang out with my friends. It didn't make me come to the conclusion that what I did was wrong.

If I was the mom, I'd also let the three year old cut my daughter's hair.

Also, the girl obviously needs help. I have to wonder what steps if any the mother has taken to help her.
Put scissors in a three year old's hands? I don't think they should be brought into this mess any further.

Vanille_
June 26th, 2012, 12:58 AM
Put scissors in a three year old's hands? I don't think they should be brought into this mess any further.

Well she would obviously be supervised. You might be right though. At that age it might create the wrong idea. I'd at least cut her hair myself and like someone else said, pay for the little girl to have a professional hair cut.

carolinaberry
June 26th, 2012, 02:45 AM
I agree with the judge-finally some common sense in the legal system. I cannot believe the people who are outraged on the behalf of this teenager who assaulted a 3-year-old. The judge will probably end up getting fired...because America has become a nation that cares more about preserving the "fragile self esteem" of bullies and thugs than in justice and teaching children about responsibility for their actions.

ETA-Also, if she would do something so crazy in public, imagine what she (who had made threats of rape and mutilation) would have done to this child in private? We would be reading some horrid child torture/murder case.

carolinaberry
June 26th, 2012, 02:49 AM
Ok, I get the whole eye for an eye thing, but forcing someone to cut there hair is just against human rights. Honestly how did this end up in court? It's just a teen cutting of a toddlers hair, it just shows how energy is so easily wasted :slap:

What about the victim-the actual innocent victim's human rights?

jacqueline101
June 26th, 2012, 04:32 AM
I think the punishment fit the crime. They ruined the toddlers hair why not have it done to them.

Bene
June 26th, 2012, 05:11 AM
The other day, I pinpointed why this has been nagging at me so much. But I've been debating with myself whether or not to make the comparison here, because it IS a stretch, no where near as extreme, but I can't help but see similarities.

Older kids lure a toddler away from a public area and do things to that toddler.


It's been, what? 19 years now? Doesn't seem that long ago to me. Anyway, back in the day there was the James Bulger/Robert Thompson/Jon Venables thing. Again, this hair cutting thing isn't anywhere near as bad, but it started out like this case does: 2 older kids luring a toddler away.

Around the same time, there was another case of an older child luring a toddler away. Derrick Robie/Eric Smith.



These things happened when I was in the same age group as those kids, so I never really forgot. And I remember thinking "I have no interest in toddlers, most of my friends have no real interest in toddlers unless they're babysitting. If someone at this age is showing any interest in someone that age, it can't be good."


It's the luring away that nibbles at my brain. Why would they do that unless they had some concept that what they were doing was a bad thing?



Adults tend to forget what it was like to be a child. There's this notion that romanticizes the innocence of childhood, so they're more likely to brush it off as "Oh, they didn't know what they were doing" Those of us who have a better memory know all too well just how sneaky and clever kids can be. There's this cruelty that kids are capable of, that adults tend to forget about. Perhaps these kids have the idea that since they're technically children, their crimes will be forgiven or that the punishment will be lenient. Or maybe they don't think things will go far. Because as clever as kids can be, they also lack impulse control and they rarely think the situation will get serious. It's so easy to get carried away. Even so, in the process of planning to do anything away from the attention of an adult proves that they know what they're doing is wrong. That's old enough to know better, and it's certainly old enough to be punished accordingly.

MonaMayfair
June 26th, 2012, 05:13 AM
Serves her right. I wish we had judges in this country who made the punishment fit the crime...

Hairizona
June 26th, 2012, 05:43 AM
The choice was left to the mother.

Assault is not what happened here; assault is threat only.

Battery is actually putting hands on another without consent.

annah
June 26th, 2012, 06:44 AM
I was reading recently that cutting a child's hair off as punishment is considered child abuse. Odd that a judge would make such a suggestion.

EtherealDoll
June 26th, 2012, 06:49 AM
I was reading recently that cutting a child's hair off as punishment is considered child abuse. Odd that a judge would make such a suggestion.

And what that girl did to a toddler and her threats to the girl in Colorado wasn't abuse?

Horrible things happen because people try to justify the bullies, not caring about the victims.

henné
June 26th, 2012, 07:17 AM
Cutting their hair was the LEAST the parents should do - they should get some substantial punishment aside from this. I'd ground them from watching TV and going online (for fun) for a year at the least.

13 year olds are not 'children' anymore, they're teenagers, and they're very well aware of what they're doing and how ok or not it is.

Toadstool
June 26th, 2012, 07:22 AM
Someone in this thread said they also made threats of rape and other violent acts towards another person in the past. This person is obviously in need of honest help. I think court ordered therapy and community service would be much more appropriate. Putting in hours of deserved work and also improving yourself. Getting your hair cut off isn't appropriate. It still gives a young girl (13) the impression that what happens to her body is not her choice. I don't think young preteen girls need their right to body autonomy taken away, even if they've failed to respect that in another. This doesn't correct that behavior but perpetuates it.

At last someone has said what I was thinking, but struggling to articulate.

Minxymoo
June 26th, 2012, 07:27 AM
Hmm, coming from experience here.

I see two victims both the teenager and toddler.

Now I'm not going to dismiss what she did was wrong as it was a terrible act and I'm under no illusions that this is the only form of assault she has committed. I would agree that the teenager needs a harsh punishment but an even greater need for therapy.

I'm under great belief that this teenager has learned this serious behaviour by either exposure or experience. The threats and attempts she makes about rape, torture and luring are all leaning towards childhood sexual/physical assault. No child would just pluck this kind of behaviour out of thin air. I wouldn't be shocked if she has PTSD and is turning her anger outwards.

Its sad when this happens but unfortunately abuse is rife in the world.:(

annah
June 26th, 2012, 07:41 AM
And what that girl did to a toddler and her threats to the girl in Colorado wasn't abuse?


No, that was not abuse, that was assault, and should be treated as such. (Regardless, "an eye for an eye" doesn't apply in today's judicial system) I've no idea what standard court punishment would be for a teen.

Parents have had literally had their children taken away because they cut their childrens hair as punishment. Encouraging that doesn't sound like a rational/ fair decision by a judge. If the child wanted to, they could claim child abuse against their parents for that. That would quite likely be something a troubled teen would do in order to cause their parents trouble.

Considering that most kids now-a-days don't think anything of having their hair cut off super short, I don't see how that is a punishment anyways. I would make my child do the community service time.

As I see it, a lot of horrible things are happening because parents are losing their right to do anything other than send their kids to the corner (for punishment). I'm sure even that will be child abuse soon. (because they could say it is intent to cause emotional disturbance)

FrannyG
June 26th, 2012, 08:12 AM
What those girls did to that toddler was assault, no two ways about it. Assault is a crime, not a misdemeanor. I don't think it was a waste of the court's time at all.

A 13 year-old girl who assaults a defenceless toddler in such a fashion is showing the warning signs of becoming an even worse abuser, or the perpetrator of possibly even more unthinkable crimes.

As for the 11 year-old, I really don't know how the law generally deals with kids that age committing crimes, but there should be some counselling involved.

I just think that kids and teens capable of this behaviour at such a young age don't have a promising future as good citizens, in my opinion, unless they are properly disciplined by law.

MoonLover
June 26th, 2012, 08:33 AM
After everyone contributed the rest of the terrible details of this case, I still think the hair cutting was the wrong punishment- or at least not enough. That teenager needs way more discipline than that and what if she doesn't even care about her hair? Also, from what I remember teenage hair grows really fast.

I think this girl needs court-ordered behavioral therapy, what do you all think?

Merlin
June 26th, 2012, 10:12 AM
Unless you live in some despot-led banana republic then the judicial system is supposed to achieve a balance between three things it would seem to me:

1) Deterrence - the punishment is supposed to prevent people committing the crime
2) Punishment - you did something wrong so we're going to do something unpleasant to you
3) Rehabilitation - you did something wrong, and we're going to try and find out why and fix that

Frankly, this would seem to be far more an issue for social services than the judicial system, with the emphasis on 3 from the list. It would seem to me to be most important that the system finds out what caused them to do it in the first place and to try and prevent a recurrence of this (and / or potentially worse) in the future. Most teenagers are not going to do this, so frankly 1 on the list is not going to be an issue, so clearly it's down mainly to 2. The judge think that the solution is to do something nasty to her. History has a long heritage of chopping girls hair off as a way to punish them; though these days when so many girls have short hair I'm not sure why this would work unless it was done in public or some such. I think that might be too much for most people, generally modern societies like to do their state-permitted physical punishments (if they have such things) in private of course.

But at the end of the day, is this and the community service going to address the underlying issues? I suspect not. What's going on with their home life, the quality of personal and social education in their school, etc etc. That's where a resolution to this is going to be found rather than through the courts and the use of faintly bizarre punishments more suited to the 19th century than the 21st

------------------------------------------------

Okay, having now read the whole story I'm forced to wonder if this actually is a story from a civilised modern country? Frankly, I can pretty much guarantee that this sort of thing wouldn't happen anywhere in Europe, and I'm amazed that it can happen in the US. It sounds bizarre and, to be honest slightly creepy
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865557954/Judge-orders-Price-woman-to-cut-off-daughters-ponytail-in-court.html

Ligeia_13
June 26th, 2012, 11:26 AM
Oh my goodness... just read the article and it says this girl had already at 13 had issues with calling and threatening another girl with rape and mutilation... I think something had to be done or else she wouldnt stop... I am sure the other sentence she got wasnt enough so this one hopefully was to keep her out of jail and from doing other horrible things.

It seems to me that if a 13 year old has these kind of issues, cutting her hair off might push her to worse actions out of anger.

spidermom
June 26th, 2012, 11:42 AM
I agree with the punishment.

caadam
June 26th, 2012, 11:52 AM
I can see where the judge is coming from, and I understand the motive behind it and the desired result, but... I just feel like the desired result isn't going to come around. :/

I have to wonder, considering the behavior of this 13 yo. girl, if it's just going to be make her resentful and vengeful. It's a great possibility. Also, the matter of fact is that the REAL problem didn't seem to be addressed in this case—that being the girl had abused this child, and has abused others in the past on both physical and verbal levels (well, abused the 3 yo. in a physical manner by whacking off her hair). That's a SERIOUS problem, and I hope her mother recognizes that it needs to be addressed ASAP.

Because if this girl ends up just hating everyone for this punishment instead of learning from it, imagine what she'll do next time. The matter of fact is that despite her age, she's proven herself an abuser, and can become a worse one if she doesn't get help.

However, if the girl does come out of this learning to not do this again, then great. Sometimes "an eye for an eye" works, but other times, it just leaves people feeling bitter and angry.

Kaelee
June 26th, 2012, 11:57 AM
3) Rehabilitation - you did something wrong, and we're going to try and find out why and fix that

Yea and the US judicial system has a horrible track record of failing miserably at this. How many times has someone come out of prison and said "wow being in prison really taught me how my actions were wrong and I will never do X Y or Z again" and become model citizens? They don't. Our system creates more repeat offenders than anything, and turns those committing nonviolent misdemeanors into hardened criminals.



It seems to me that if a 13 year old has these kind of issues, cutting her hair off might push her to worse actions out of anger.

This is true. This girl has SERIOUS issues, more than anything the act of actually going out and getting scissors in order to do this proves that.

auburntressed
June 26th, 2012, 12:11 PM
What bothers me about this is that the girl's mother was the one to decide to cut it rather than have the girl serve the time. I says the judge offered to whack off 150 hours of her work detail if the hair was cut. So it was a choice, but the wrong person made it.

If a 13 year old is old enough to understand right from wrong (which she is), old enough to go to court and be punishushed by the law for it, and to be taught to take responsibility for her actions, then it ought to have been HER choosing between serving her hours or having her hair cut - not her mother. Her crime, her hair, her choice.

That may seem like a minor detail to some, but to me it is huge. I'm not sure I can articulate exactly why though.

Vanille_
June 26th, 2012, 12:32 PM
What bothers me about this is that the girl's mother was the one to decide to cut it rather than have the girl serve the time. I says the judge offered to whack off 150 hours of her work detail if the hair was cut. So it was a choice, but the wrong person made it.

Even though we read that it was the mom's decision, we don't know what conversations went on between the mother and child. It could very well be that the child agreed to it in order to cut that community service down. But it might be presented as the mother's choice because technically she had to approve.

Maelyssa
June 26th, 2012, 12:38 PM
Yeah and 13 year olds are too big for a play area anyway. Honestly a 13 and a 11 year old are way old enough to know better. Heck my 3 year old just chopped little 18 month old sisters top hair off. The first thing I asked him is if he wanted me to chop his hair off just like his sisters and he was upset at the thought of it. He knew what he did was wrong, and that he was going to get in trouble for it. I told him if he did it again I would be cutting his hair to match what he did to his sisters, and that it was going to look bad. When I read this article I completely agree with the judges ruling, he didnt force it, but he asked and the mom agreed. I mean honestly if my 11 year old did something so horrible to a 3 year old, went out and purposely bought the scissors etc... I would have asked the mom of the 3 year old to let her 3 year old cut my daughters hair right then and there, and payed generously for the little girls hair to be cut at a top salon. Sounds like the parents dont have control of their teens at all though because what teen in their right mind would do this? I get being mean to a peer and doing that to a peers hair more than I get doing it to a little 3 year old girl. Not that I would be ok or condone either, but still, its just flat out assault. Your hair is part of who you are, and if that was an adult that did that to the little girl that would be facing assault charges and jail time guaranteed!

I couldn't agree more! I do my absolute best to raise my kids to be good people but you know what? Sometimes they do idiot things and you can bet that I'd be horrified if my kids did this and after doing my best to make things right with this poor little girl and her family, my child would probably have the buzz cut from h*ll and then some. These girls are lucky they ONLY got haircuts and community service. Next up, these future sociopaths need serious therapy.

Maelyssa
June 26th, 2012, 12:46 PM
Yeah and 13 year olds are too big for a play area anyway. Honestly a 13 and a 11 year old are way old enough to know better. Heck my 3 year old just chopped little 18 month old sisters top hair off. The first thing I asked him is if he wanted me to chop his hair off just like his sisters and he was upset at the thought of it. He knew what he did was wrong, and that he was going to get in trouble for it. I told him if he did it again I would be cutting his hair to match what he did to his sisters, and that it was going to look bad. When I read this article I completely agree with the judges ruling, he didnt force it, but he asked and the mom agreed. I mean honestly if my 11 year old did something so horrible to a 3 year old, went out and purposely bought the scissors etc... I would have asked the mom of the 3 year old to let her 3 year old cut my daughters hair right then and there, and payed generously for the little girls hair to be cut at a top salon. Sounds like the parents dont have control of their teens at all though because what teen in their right mind would do this? I get being mean to a peer and doing that to a peers hair more than I get doing it to a little 3 year old girl. Not that I would be ok or condone either, but still, its just flat out assault. Your hair is part of who you are, and if that was an adult that did that to the little girl that would be facing assault charges and jail time guaranteed!

I couldn't agree more! I do my absolute best to raise my kids to be good people but you know what? Sometimes they do idiot things and you can bet that I'd be horrified if my kids did this and after doing my best to make things right with this poor little girl and her family, my child would probably have the buzz cut from h*ll and then some. These girls are lucky they ONLY got haircuts and community service. Next up, these future sociopaths need serious therapy.

GlennaGirl
June 26th, 2012, 12:50 PM
I'm a little weirded out by the punishment even though in literal terms it suits the crime. It just seems so Puritan somehow.

Since this is, in fact, a crime (assault), I think giving the family options in the girls' punishment is sending the wrong message. "Oh, that's all that's going to happen? So next time, I'll make sure whatever hurtful thing I do to someone is something I can stand,just in case I get caught." No, most crimes receive a sentence...period. A generally unmovable (unless appealed) sentence.

And for something this vicious it should be more than X amount of hours of community service. Not sure what because I don't know juvenile law at all. But more than community service and a haircut that the teens can almost certainly wear a wig over or extensions under anyway.

leslissocool
June 26th, 2012, 12:50 PM
What really bothers me is the fact that the mother chose to have her sentences shortened for the cut, then regretted it.

I thought long and hard about what I would have done if my kids where responsible for it, and honestly I would have kept the sentenced. Because I believe there is no easy way out. Yes, the girl might hate her hair cut, but I believe she would have hated the community service more.

I don't understand this wanting to get your kids the shortest possible sentence. I understand not wanting them to go to juvi, but cutting community service?

Even if my daughter begged to have the hair cut. I do think this girl really needs mandatory therapy, because from the looks of it her mother won't give her any help. I might be making assumptions, I don't know them, but I get the feeling that maybe the mom didn't see the assault as such a big deal. She kept saying "the girls tried to make the cut look nice" like it justifies the act.

GlennaGirl
June 26th, 2012, 12:54 PM
I thought long and hard about what I would have done if my kids where responsible for it, and honestly I would have kept the sentenced. Because I believe there is no easy way out.

Me too! And if I didn't feel the sentence was strong enough you can bet I'd be evoking my own punishments at home. I wouldn't let my child "off the hook" of a sentence, not even with something humiliating.

I just think these girls are getting the wrong message here. And maybe they've been the wrong message all along, considering the other, even more heinous things they've been doing. They need some sort of court-ordered therapy if that's allowable for juveniles. They threatened rape -- that's ill, IMO. A stop has to come to these girls' little mini reign of terror until it becomes a full-grown one.

Long_hair_bear
June 26th, 2012, 01:03 PM
If someone cut MY hair off, 13 yo or no, I'd be shaving theirs! It'd be like losing an arm to me, my hair is so precious! I personally don't agree with the judge giving her a choice. Where I the judge, I'd make her have a whipperjod, zigzag cut then go out and do community service in it. I think punishments nowadays are far too lenient. When you could get your hands cut off for stealing, there weren't that many thieves.

If my daughter did that to a little girl, I'd be beyond mortified and upset. Youve gotta wonder where the mothers where through all this premeditation.

leslissocool
June 26th, 2012, 01:20 PM
Me too! And if I didn't feel the sentence was strong enough you can bet I'd be evoking my own punishments at home. I wouldn't let my child "off the hook" of a sentence, not even with something humiliating.

I just think these girls are getting the wrong message here. And maybe they've been the wrong message all along, considering the other, even more heinous things they've been doing. They need some sort of court-ordered therapy if that's allowable for juveniles. They threatened rape -- that's ill, IMO. A stop has to come to these girls' little mini reign of terror until it becomes a full-grown one.

But that's the thing, many parents would but the girls in therapy. I know I would have. But I really thing the mother won't, and thinks her acts were just "children's play" and that's the part that really bothers me.

My sister has a lot of issues, she used to bully girls at school maliciously, and created websites dedicated to bash certain girls. My mom always acted like it was no big deal, and that it was just "messing around". My sister got out of it, but, she is agorophobic and has a lot of issues. My mom denies there is anything wrong with my sister, and the mom's action of the 13 year old are very similar to what my mother would have done. And said.

While I do agree with the cutting of the hair as an option ( TBH I would have sent that girl to Juvi or a facility for some time, threats and assault are not light charges), as a parent I wouldn't have chosen it. I would have done it as a home punishment, and yes my kid would have been punished on top of the community service (no phone privileges) but I wouldn't have had her sentence shortened, and I would have put her in therapy.

I think that this kind of behavior is very dangerous.

MrsGuther
June 26th, 2012, 01:24 PM
What is the censored part of the title of the thread? Maybe I'm dumb, but I can't figure it out...

Vanille_
June 26th, 2012, 01:27 PM
What is the censored part of the title of the thread? Maybe I'm dumb, but I can't figure it out...

Rhymes with pity and starts with an SH. Sorry - I don't think were allowed to just say it.

missmelaniem
June 26th, 2012, 02:27 PM
They led a 3 year old girl away and chopped her hair off. It was premeditaded, as they asked a McDonald's employee for scissors and when that didn't happen, they went out and bought a pair.


And they have a history of making harrassing (and disturbing) phonecalls. Apparently they don't know what's acceptable and what isn't. I think shaming them is a fair way to teach hem that their actions have consequences. I think the judge was too easy on them. I would have made them parade in front of McDonald's with a placard that states "I assaulted a small child" in addition to the hair cuts.


Honestly, 13 years old is old enough to know to keep your hands to yourself. That's a skill you're supposed to master in pre-k.


I just googled the article (as opposed to an opinion piece) and I agree with all of the above.

henné
June 26th, 2012, 02:43 PM
I ABSOLUTELY agree with therapy. And the rape/mutilation threats?!? :bigeyes: Wow.

After actually reading the article *blush* I think the judge's main focus should be mandated therapy, then community service and the cutting-the-hair punishment was really unnecessary. If I were the judge, I'd try to burn it into the mother's brain that the girl needs therapy and that what she did was nowhere near 'child's play' or just messing around.

This makes me really sad ... There is way too much abuse going on :(

Merlin
June 26th, 2012, 02:50 PM
I'm concerned about where this whole enthusiasm for 'an eye for an eye' physical punishment leads, well actually we all know it leads to the way Sharia is applied in places like Saudi and Iran. Would so many people be as enthusiastic for cutting the hands of thieves and so forth? And the whole idea of public phyiscal punishment, because that's what this is. Would, generally, the people who supported chopping this girls hair off in public be as keen if the judge had suggested a public caning?

The thing is, I think that one of the things which ought to mark out a liberal and modern society is the way in which it treats those who break the law, how in fact it treats it's most odious and repulsive members. Generally, I think, European nations are less 'retributive' than America in this regard (painting with a hugely broad brush of course). In the grand scheme of things what these girls did is not that terrible, but surely chopping her hair off as a public punishment is really only one step on the road to public whippings, mutilations and executions? I'd rather that we said - actually the first step onto that road is one we as a state will not take.

Vanille_
June 26th, 2012, 02:58 PM
but surely chopping her hair off as a public punishment is really only one step on the road to public whippings, mutilations and executions?

I think that's a rather large leap but that's just my opinion.

Is smacking a child on the hands one step closer to locking kids up in cages and starving them as punishment?

There is obviously something wrong with how our country deals with crime. Locking people up, making them pay fines and do community service is not working. This seems drastic, but hopefully it helps the girl get back on the right track. (this along with counseling)

No I wouldn't condone cutting people's hands off, but I don't see cutting this girl's hair any different than if she was an adult, sentenced to jail, and had her hair cut there.

Also, how long was her hair? I mean, if we are talking five inches or so that's very different than 12 or more inches. Also, if her hair was long for religious reasons, I would be against this punishment.

Amapola
June 26th, 2012, 03:01 PM
My POV: I think the mother was thinking about what a hassle it would be to take her kid to community service. I am suspicious that this is what motivated her choice.

It is hard to say how this will go with the child. She might get the point, my guess is she won't. Her mother does not seem to be backing up the court decision. On the other hand kids are smart...

Long_hair_bear
June 26th, 2012, 03:03 PM
All a matter of opinion, Merlin. :)

tinfoilsally
June 26th, 2012, 03:54 PM
The other day, I pinpointed why this has been nagging at me so much. But I've been debating with myself whether or not to make the comparison here, because it IS a stretch, no where near as extreme, but I can't help but see similarities.

Older kids lure a toddler away from a public area and do things to that toddler.


It's been, what? 19 years now? Doesn't seem that long ago to me. Anyway, back in the day there was the James Bulger/Robert Thompson/Jon Venables thing. Again, this hair cutting thing isn't anywhere near as bad, but it started out like this case does: 2 older kids luring a toddler away.

Around the same time, there was another case of an older child luring a toddler away. Derrick Robie/Eric Smith.



These things happened when I was in the same age group as those kids, so I never really forgot. And I remember thinking "I have no interest in toddlers, most of my friends have no real interest in toddlers unless they're babysitting. If someone at this age is showing any interest in someone that age, it can't be good."


It's the luring away that nibbles at my brain. Why would they do that unless they had some concept that what they were doing was a bad thing?



Adults tend to forget what it was like to be a child. There's this notion that romanticizes the innocence of childhood, so they're more likely to brush it off as "Oh, they didn't know what they were doing" Those of us who have a better memory know all too well just how sneaky and clever kids can be. There's this cruelty that kids are capable of, that adults tend to forget about. Perhaps these kids have the idea that since they're technically children, their crimes will be forgiven or that the punishment will be lenient. Or maybe they don't think things will go far. Because as clever as kids can be, they also lack impulse control and they rarely think the situation will get serious. It's so easy to get carried away. Even so, in the process of planning to do anything away from the attention of an adult proves that they know what they're doing is wrong. That's old enough to know better, and it's certainly old enough to be punished accordingly.


Exactly what I was thinking. I don't want to give the impression that I believe what these girls did was anywhere near the same, but something in that articles description of what happened just brought the whole horrible Jamie Bulger thing to mind, which is disturbing to say the least. I agree that kids that age being interested in messing around with a toddler is extremely odd, and I would vote for extensive amounts of therapy for both kids, personally.

ohmygackt
June 26th, 2012, 03:59 PM
This was so stupid to end up in a courtroom XD

Mrsbaybeegurl
June 26th, 2012, 04:01 PM
What really bothers me is the fact that the mother chose to have her sentences shortened for the cut, then regretted it. ....


Yes! What's worse in my opinion is most of this didn't come to light until the Mother of this teenage girl decided to make a big stink about it (after reducing her daughters community service and getting her off the hook) and is now filing a complaint against the judge saying it was wrong for her to give the option and she regrets it. Like what is that?? How does she agree to it and is somehow turning it all around so that her and her daughter are the ones coming out of this mess looking like victims. It just baffles me...if she regrets it, it should be based on the fact that her daughter served a lighter sentence! But either way it shouldn't be something that is now going as far as it is.

The mother is quoted saying " (http://www.businessinsider.com/woman-complains-against-utah-judge-for-ordering-her-to-cut-daughters-hair-2012-6#)She definitely needed to be punished for what happened, but I never dreamt it would be that much of a punishment. An eye for an eye, that's not how you teach kids right from wrong"

It's as if she is putting all the blame on the Judge and becoming the victim herself. If she "never dreamt" it would be that much of a punishment...then she should have let her serve an extra 150 hours and told the judge NO!

RitaCeleste
June 26th, 2012, 05:18 PM
I'm a fan of the judge! I think a haircut is a fine punishment. If it was my kid, I'd cut that hair in a heartbeat. I sick of all the whining over every little thing. We should just hug them more and then they would all turn out lovely. That's a crock of horse poo, some people do bad things just because they want to and they can.

MrsGuther
June 26th, 2012, 05:19 PM
Rhymes with pity and starts with an SH. Sorry - I don't think were allowed to just say it.



Thank you Vanille.

Kaelee
June 26th, 2012, 05:20 PM
Oh good grief. Next thing you know she'll have her own reality show!

MinderMutsig
June 26th, 2012, 05:48 PM
At last someone has said what I was thinking, but struggling to articulate.I agree.

Had she been a boy they would have just gone with the community service and call it a day but because she's a girl they felt the need to use something more degrading. It serves no purpose and will not teach her anything other than show her by example that it is OK to impose your will on other and force others to do things they don't want. It is what she did to that toddler and it is what the court and her mother did to her. All you really need to do to get away with it is make sure you're on top of the food chain.

Does she deserve to be punished? Absolutely.
Should she get physiological treatment? Definitely! Especially considering the other issues she has.

But this punishment is nothing short of disgusting and misogynistic and I expect better from the court. I understand the sentiment behind it but this is not the way.

MinderMutsig
June 26th, 2012, 06:13 PM
Yes! What's worse in my opinion is most of this didn't come to light until the Mother of this teenage girl decided to make a big stink about it (after reducing her daughters community service and getting her off the hook) and is now filing a complaint against the judge saying it was wrong for her to give the option and she regrets it. Like what is that?? How does she agree to it and is somehow turning it all around so that her and her daughter are the ones coming out of this mess looking like victims. It just baffles me...if she regrets it, it should be based on the fact that her daughter served a lighter sentence! But either way it shouldn't be something that is now going as far as it is.

The mother is quoted saying "She definitely needed to be punished for what happened, but I never dreamt it would be that much of a punishment. An eye for an eye, that's not how you teach kids right from wrong"

It's as if she is putting all the blame on the Judge and becoming the victim herself. If she "never dreamt" it would be that much of a punishment...then she should have let her serve an extra 150 hours and told the judge NO! I actually also agree with this. As wrong as I think it is that the punishment was even suggested, the mother is just as much responsible for it as the judge. He did give a choice after all and she chose to go with the hair cutting.

If she feels bad about it afterwards and feels it does not send the right message to her daughter then she needs to talk to the girl, explain why she chose the way she has and apologize for it but that is something between her and the kid, not her, the kid, the court and the media.

In other words: she needs to stop whining and accept responsibility for her own role in the matter.

einna
June 26th, 2012, 06:22 PM
I don't agree with the punishment. I think that girl is in need of serious help, and that social services should be called in to investigate her situation.

HintOfMint
June 26th, 2012, 06:33 PM
Punishment tends to be one of the most subjective areas of the law. The judge literally has to think about what will get the point across and, honestly, punish the perpetrator the most, and yes, humiliation is one of the forms of punishment.

Thieves in modern society have been made to wear sandwich boards declaring their crimes. Certain criminal celebrities have been made to perform community service in very public ways. While the community service aspect may be seen as a lesser punishment for their crimes, the damage to their reputation was taken into account when doling out the sentence.

These budding sociopaths attacked a toddler. They have little to no empathy, and a little humiliation is just the ticket to teach them that certain actions will in fact be punished in a way that is very unsavory to them. Some people might react to incarceration or therapy as "so what, let's just get this over with," or it might even enhance some sort of street cred. But humiliation? Damn straight they'll think twice before doing that again.

embee
June 26th, 2012, 07:14 PM
Kids can be horrible and dangerous. Has anyone read Lord of the Flies recently? I could hardly get through that book. ugh, brrr. :(

I also remember the young teens abducting the toddlers some 20 years ago and ......... it didn't end well. As with the Leopold-Loeb abduction and murder - before our time.

Perhaps this case went to court because the perps' parents just laughed it all off, oh it's nothing, they're just kids fooling around, etc etc. Sorry, it's *not* just nothing, and it's not just kids fooling around.

Agree counseling/intervention really should be part of the deal here. However, we never know what will hit home with a kid. I know one who stole things - pretty much anywhere - but the shock and dismay when her bike was stolen was absolutely priceless. I think the light came on for the first time right then. (geeez, rolling eyes, some kids are hard to reach...)

rusika1
June 26th, 2012, 07:50 PM
Ok, I get the whole eye for an eye thing, but forcing someone to cut there hair is just against human rights. Honestly how did this end up in court? It's just a teen cutting of a toddlers hair, it just shows how energy is so easily wasted :slap:

Um, that's still assault. This isn't two 5 year olds playing beauty shop, or even a bunch of 9 year olds 'persuading' someone to let them cut her hair. It. Was. Assault. A 13 year old is old enough to understand consequences. (So is an 11 year old.) It would appear that the parents of these two girls were either unable to put a stop to the ongoing bad behavior or unaware of it in the first place. In either case, court is probably exactly where this needed to end up, simply because (at least in the older girl's case) she probably doesn't take any punishment meted out by her parents very seriously. Of course, this particular punishment would be more likely to be effective if her mother hadn't acted like it was some sort of crime against humanity.:rolleyes:

I am unaware of any document(s) that state absence of haircuts is a basic human right. And even if it were, what about the rights of the toddler?

Wiggy Stardust
June 26th, 2012, 08:00 PM
I'd give my bratty little crotch fruit a buzz cut if they bullied a little defenceless toddler like that. A gross, uneven buzzcut; not the cool kind. And I'd leave a rat-tail at the back. I'm pretty sure condoning that behaviour leads to sociopaths.

Mesmerise
June 26th, 2012, 08:48 PM
Ehh... I think the girl deserved it, personally. A lot of people said it won't teach her anything, but if she was particularly attached to her own hair it should teach her SOMETHING about how it feels when you forcibly have your hair cut off through no choice of your own.

Bene
June 26th, 2012, 08:53 PM
I'd give my bratty little crotch fruit a buzz cut if they bullied a little defenceless toddler like that. A gross, uneven buzzcut; not the cool kind. And I'd leave a rat-tail at the back. I'm pretty sure condoning that behaviour leads to sociopaths.


I was thinking choppy, uneven shearing. But a rat-tail is freaking genius!

GlennaGirl
June 26th, 2012, 08:56 PM
I'd give my bratty little crotch fruit a buzz cut if they bullied a little defenceless toddler like that. A gross, uneven buzzcut; not the cool kind. And I'd leave a rat-tail at the back. I'm pretty sure condoning that behaviour leads to sociopaths.


Crotch fruit! :bounce::laugh::rollin: I think I love you.

Mrsbaybeegurl
June 26th, 2012, 09:01 PM
Crotch fruit! :bounce::laugh::rollin: I think I love you.

LOL... I was gonna say the same thing, I've yet to hear that expression and couldn't stop laughing when read it :)

christyrose
June 26th, 2012, 09:01 PM
I agree that the humiliation factor is probably most effective for a girl like this. I mean this isnt her first offense!

RileyJane
June 27th, 2012, 10:11 AM
maybe the 13 year old will think twice before she decides to do something like that again. sometimes detention doesnt actually work, since it doesnt connect what she did and why it was wrong. obviously since she cut this little toddlers hair, hers should be cut off as well.. wouldnt want that on my own daughter, but hey, if she did that i would instantly pixie her hair!

Toadstool
June 27th, 2012, 10:21 AM
They didn't actually hurt the child, just cut her hair. So comparing them to the boys who abducted Jamie Bulger seems a step too far.
Also, if as some are saying, forced haircutting is assault, then do you believe it is right for a judge to recommend and allow assault in his courtroom?
Yes, the girls were wrong to do what they did. But I do not believe it should be a legal matter, and i am disgusted that a court would recommend public humiliation of ANYONE.

Tia2010
June 27th, 2012, 11:00 AM
That girl is in serious need of therapy as well as a much deserved juvi sentence.

While I feel the teen's haircut fit the crime .. it was somehow still lacking in meaning or substance. Her hair will grow back and chances are she didn't learn a darn thing from it, especially with a mother who doesn't seem to give a damn what her daughter does.

I mean 8 months of harassing phone calls threatening rape and mutilation to someone and then luring away and cutting off a toddlers hair and what happens to her? She gets...a haircut.

I think court ordered therapy as well as a psych evaluation added on to her sentence were in order!

As for the mother. I can see she is now laying the foundation for a lawsuit to try and walk away with some $$$$. Because that's what it all boils down to.. Not the toddler, not her daughter getting any real help but $$ for the mom. Way to parent there, mom.

elthia
June 28th, 2012, 02:07 AM
I think the punishment fits the crime. The mother was given a choice to reduce the sentence, and now has a sort of "buyers regret". Most likely because the kid is whining about a crappy haircut, or because someone heard about it and said the judgement isn't lawful. Now she figures she can get her 15 minutes of fame. What mom really needs is to be a better parent and figure out what the heck is wrong with her kid that she is doing these things and get her the help she needs before the kid ends up hurting anyone else.

Also...yeah it is just hair. However, the toddler had never had her hair cut before. For a lot of small children, that first haircut can be traumatic. Now imagine being a defenseless 3 year old, and it is being done by big scary teenagers, who you thought liked you, and now they are laughing at you. If I were the parent, and I saw a strange teen with scissors near my toddler, and my child crying, I would be hard pressed not to smack the heck outta them.

WinterDream
June 28th, 2012, 08:22 AM
I don't agree with the ruling - not because I think it's unfair (sounds rather unprofessional though), but because I think it's addressing the symptoms, not the "illness"

What she did is very serious in my opinion, the luring part is especially disturbing and a huge red flag - if you add the rest of the information about her threats of rape and mutilation you get a better picture of how dangerous this teenager could become in the future. Community service would probably teach her nothing and neither will public humiliation which might actually escalate her issues.

Court ordered therapy and a serious investigation by the social services into her (home) situation. Such behaviours don't just come out of nowhere nor do they just disappear with punishment, especially since punishment that is perceived as unfair and undeserved (and her mother seems to encourage this perception) will often worsen such attitudes and behaviours and enable the offender to feel both justified and victimised. Someone needs to get to the bottom of things and properly address whatever caused this - abuse, mental issues etc

MonaMayfair
June 28th, 2012, 08:53 AM
The mother's a moron. There was a case in the paper here earlier this week.

A 10 year old boy had been arrested, He had attacked 2 female teachers (in their 50s) hitting one in the face and breaking the others leg (or dislocating her kneecap according to another paper)
His mother said it was the teachers' faults because they annoyed her son.
Apparently, he was tapping on his desk and they told him to stop... Little B******

Scarlet_Heart
June 28th, 2012, 09:18 AM
I wasn't previously aware of this topic, so thanks for posting. However, is anyone else struck by how unprofessionally this article is written? The tone is very condescending to Mormons and is not written objectively at all. Also, it ignores the apparently abusive nature of the original act perpetrated on the toddler.

teela1978
June 28th, 2012, 10:24 AM
I wasn't previously aware of this topic, so thanks for posting. However, is anyone else struck by how unprofessionally this article is written? The tone is very condescending to Mormons and is not written objectively at all. Also, it ignores the apparently abusive nature of the original act perpetrated on the toddler.

The link goes to a blog, which aren't often professionally written. I hadn't noticed any talk of mormons other than mention Utah was founded "on the book of mormon"... which it was...

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865557954/Judge-orders-Price-woman-to-cut-off-daughters-ponytail-in-court.html?pg=1

The above link goes to a "real" news article about the story. A few more details, apparently the mother of the teen is upset that she cut her daughters hair :shrug:

Unicorn
June 28th, 2012, 03:12 PM
Yes! What's worse in my opinion is most of this didn't come to light until the Mother of this teenage girl decided to make a big stink about it (after reducing her daughters community service and getting her off the hook) and is now filing a complaint against the judge saying it was wrong for her to give the option and she regrets it. Like what is that?? How does she agree to it and is somehow turning it all around so that her and her daughter are the ones coming out of this mess looking like victims. It just baffles me...if she regrets it, it should be based on the fact that her daughter served a lighter sentence! But either way it shouldn't be something that is now going as far as it is.

The mother is quoted saying " (http://www.businessinsider.com/woman-complains-against-utah-judge-for-ordering-her-to-cut-daughters-hair-2012-6#)She definitely needed to be punished for what happened, but I never dreamt it would be that much of a punishment. An eye for an eye, that's not how you teach kids right from wrong"

It's as if she is putting all the blame on the Judge and becoming the victim herself. If she "never dreamt" it would be that much of a punishment...then she should have let her serve an extra 150 hours and told the judge NO!
This is clearly why this 13yr old has gone astray, if the Mother isn't taking responsibility for her own decision, then she won't be teaching her daughter to be responsible for her actions either.

Unicorn

Unicorn
June 28th, 2012, 03:19 PM
Double post....

Merlin
June 28th, 2012, 03:22 PM
Here's a report (http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php?/topic/129935-mothers-fury-after-judge-forces-her-to-cut-off-13-year-old-daughters-ponytail-in-court-after-her-girl-attacked-a-toddler-with-pair-of-scissors/) which shows the victim's hair before and after, and the perpetrator's hair after,

Scarlet_Heart
June 28th, 2012, 07:43 PM
The link goes to a blog, which aren't often professionally written. I hadn't noticed any talk of mormons other than mention Utah was founded "on the book of mormon"... which it was...

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865557954/Judge-orders-Price-woman-to-cut-off-daughters-ponytail-in-court.html?pg=1

The above link goes to a "real" news article about the story. A few more details, apparently the mother of the teen is upset that she cut her daughters hair :shrug:

I had taken the link to be an article on a news site because that is how it is presented, with "Top Stories" on the side and whatnot. Anyway, irrelevant. Yea, I found the tone to be condescending and the speech far too informal. If it's just a gossip site or some blogger sitting in a basement, it shouldn't be considered totally credible nor presented as news. That's all. No big deal.

I don't agree with vigilantism. The girl should have been made to publicly apologize to the victimized child and given some kind of community service or, hello, get therapy/counseling. A teenager victimizing a toddler is a serious warning sign that something is wrong and someone needs to talk to this kid ASAP. Publicly embarrassing her by cutting off her hair is only going to make this kid angrier and worse.

HintOfMint
June 28th, 2012, 08:40 PM
I had taken the link to be an article on a news site because that is how it is presented, with "Top Stories" on the side and whatnot. Anyway, irrelevant. Yea, I found the tone to be condescending and the speech far too informal. If it's just a gossip site or some blogger sitting in a basement, it shouldn't be considered totally credible nor presented as news. That's all. No big deal.

I don't agree with vigilantism. The girl should have been made to publicly apologize to the victimized child and given some kind of community service or, hello, get therapy/counseling. A teenager victimizing a toddler is a serious warning sign that something is wrong and someone needs to talk to this kid ASAP. Publicly embarrassing her by cutting off her hair is only going to make this kid angrier and worse.

A court ordered punishment is, by definition, not vigilantism. Common people aren't taking the law into their own hands here.

As far as whether a kinder/gentler approach is more effective, that is up for debate. Everyone has a different type of punishment that would truly be a deterrent from them ever doing such a terrible thing again. For some people, community service is just something to wait out, and honestly a lot of people are really good at lying to people and faking recovery while getting absolutely NOTHING out of therapy.

Getting smacked with the humiliating consequences of attacking a toddler by having their own hair chopped off? That may be just the thing to teach them that their actions are unacceptable. Many sociopaths are actually deterred from the prospect of losing their freedom and going to prison. It's not really important to me if they are refraining from violence because they morally know it's the right thing to do. All I care is that they refrain, period. And deterrence is a really good way to do that, at least for some people.

Also, these psychotic kids may not respond well to kindness. They may take advantage of it and enjoy twisting kindly adults around their fingers and figure out ways to do horrible things to others and play the same, "I'm a poor little girl" card when they get caught.

Scarlet_Heart
June 29th, 2012, 04:03 AM
I guess you're right. Maybe vigilantism isn't the best word. But Hamurabian "eye for an eye" punishment is often associated with vigilantism because of the revenge-style retribution it entails. Supposedly civil-minded courts don't usually impose this form of justic. I just think it's the wrong way to go. The teenager is obviously disturbed somehow and IMO needs a more constructive punishment and mandated counseling/evaluation.

auburntressed
June 29th, 2012, 04:10 AM
Anyone else notice that the 13 year old appears to be a better hair cutter than her mom?

auburntressed
June 30th, 2012, 02:45 AM
There are a few other things that I am noticing in this case, as I have read more about it.

First - there has not been one single mention of the victim's state of mind or emotional well being during and after the hair-cutting "attack." To me, the three year old's demeanor and subsequent emotional state is VERY important to the case for a couple of reasons.

An eleven to thirteen year old is definitely old enough to know right from wrong and to understand that there are consequences to bad actions. But there is a WHOLE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between a 13 year old saying, "Hey, kiddo, let me cut your hair! But we have to come over here and hide it from your mom..." and a 13 year old holding a three year old down and forcing a hair cut.

They are considering it to be an assault because obviously a three year old can't decide for herself if she wants her hair cut or not, and obviously they knew the adults would not allow them to play barber shop. But at age 13, I don't think they are capable of understanding, "Hey, wait a minute... this isn't just a prank. This is assault!" So - able to understand that they were doing wrong, yes. Able to grasp how serious this wrong was - absolutely not. UNLESS they forced or held the three year old down. If they did that, then their own mental state during the cut is on a whole other level.

And at these ages, the mental state and cooperation of all parties during this attack makes HUGE differences in regard to what consequences a 13 year old mind can reasonably be expected to consider. Getting a smack on the butt or grounded is the sort of consequence I'd have expected at that age (not that I'd have done it, cause I wouldn't have). Being taken to court and charged with assault is something I'd never have imagined happening to me at that age.

Again - huge difference if the three year old cooperated and wanted or did not want the hair cut or not. I find it impossible to believe that they could have held down a kicking and screaming three year old without someone noticing. And if this three year old was like, "Oh, awesome, it's just like mommy at the beauty parlor!" that changes how the 13 year old may have been able to understand the full scope of the action and what consequences could be expected from it.

But nowhere is the victim's mentality and emotional state mentioned in any of these articles.

It really just sounds like this only went to court because the two moms of either party are being loud, mean, and unpleasant to each other. So rather than teaching their children proper discipline, they go to court over it.

The second thing I have noticed is that the 11 year old is only passingly mentioned in any of the accounts. I can only assume this is because one - her mom isn't being loud and rude about the whole thing. And two - she wasn't made to stand in the courtroom and get her hair cut. The only mentions made of her were that she was "allowed" to have it done at a salon instead. Does anyone else get the impression that the reason she was "allowed" to have it done at a salon was because her mom probably took her to get her hair cut before the court date even happened? So there is one parent who already enacted the punishment before it ever got before a judge. Probably. The judge probably thought to himself, "Hey, this other girl's mom has made her cut her hair. Why hasn't this girl's mom done that? That's hardly fair."

Anyways... the third and last thing I have noticed. People have mentioned that the 13 year old has been in trouble for harassing some other girl? Well first off, unless that has gone to court, then it has zero bearing on the case at hand. What it DOES indicate, however, is that this child clearly needs help.

A 13 year old who is acting out in this way is more than likely learning this behavior from home, which means the parents are not punishing her for bad behavior. And they could, in all likelihood, be raising her in an abusive environment.

There is no mention in any article I have read so far of which child's "idea" it was to do the cutting on the three year old. I think which ever child came up with the idea in the first place has some deeply seated problems that need to be addressed.

Because - regardless of whether they thought it was cute, or innocent, or whatever... the fact that a child would formulate the idea to cut a smaller child's hair in the first place is an indicator that something is "off" there. It isn't normal. It isn't something a normal child would do without some kind of issue causing that. I'm not quite sure how to word what I mean, but I'm not talking about an awareness of right/wrong and consequences. I'm talking about like.. maybe they are acting out or re-enacting something that was done to them at some point - or feel the need to.

So, because of that, court-ordered therapy was definitely needed.

MandyBeth
June 30th, 2012, 03:07 AM
Um, my 10 year old knows it's wrong to cut another persons hair. He's not had the greatest start thanks to a messed up Foster care system, so if even he can recognize that - a 13 year old should also. My 7 year old knows that just as well.

It's horrible parenting to start with, maybe this would have been a wake up call if Mommy Dearest hadn't changed her mind.

LisaButz2001
July 4th, 2012, 05:47 PM
I agree with Bene's analogy. This was premeditated and could have ended up much worse. They befriended the 3 year old, tried to get scissors from employees and then bought their own when that failed. They ought not to be pitied and the mom was wrong for filing a complaint and commuting the punishment. If this is what she does at 13, what will she do at 18? Get psychological tests and counsling too.

Kaelee
July 4th, 2012, 05:55 PM
Actually, auburntressed brings up good points I hadn't considered before. It IS possible the girl WANTED the hair cut, and the older kids knew it was wrong but didn't really have a concept of HOW wrong (I wouldn't expect a 13 year old to, anyway.)

We all have this mental image of them cutting her hair maliciously and unexpectedly, but we DON'T know for sure if that was the case or not.

I seem to remember cutting my OWN hair when I was about 3. Mom wasn't happy and it looked a mess, but there you go.

Ebrox
July 4th, 2012, 06:40 PM
I find the punishment a bit silly, sounds more like the punishment a mother would put if this happened between her daughters.. ( you cut your sister's hair now I'm going to cut yours!)...
doesn't sound serious at all to me.

czech it out
July 4th, 2012, 08:16 PM
This is so strange. Why an adult judge would stoop to the level of a hair-thieving teen he is supposed to be reprimanding is beyond me. I agree with everyone who says that this guy should have been way more constructive in his sentence. I'm not sure of the legality of asking the girl's mother to immediately and publicly cut her daughter's hair but I can say this: that judge should grow up and start doing his job more professionally.