Really offensive article for the silver girls

[Rini]

I came across this article (http://www.curlstylist.com/articles/coloring/gray-hair-means-green) today and wanted to share.

I am well aware that there are people who think like this woman, but it was very hurtful to read it in black and white.

Just to add extra insult to injury, the photo she uses is stolen. Read the comments section too, some great replies from women like me tired of this attitude.

:flowers:

[CarpeDM]

Ugh...I am so never dying my silvers.

[dulce]

Glad you posted this,it still shows how many people need a attitude adjustment,such old fashioned thinking.Hair dressers like her[I met a few in my life] made me decide to grow my hair long and silver and learn to trim it myself[not difficult at all]People like her do such a deservice to the good, caring hair dressers.

[sometimesginger]

I love silver hair! My grade two teacher had hair like yours - she was a natural blonde growing out all her silver hair! It looked fantastic, and I always wondered why my mom never grew out her grey hairs. I'm defiantly letting mine stay!
By the way, I love your hair :)

[pepperminttea]

Ugh, what a charmless article. The comments on it made me cheer though, it's like a silver power rangers squad down there! :D

[Rini]

It's very disturbing isn't it? Was this woman taught this at hairdressing school? Is it common practice? I do meet people sometimes who tell me that I should dye my hair and that having silver hair is not attractive. I feel mostly sad for those people, because they are letting themselves be led by an opinion which is driven by money (and preys on the insecurities of some about getting older).

I really hope this woman reconsiders her viewpoint. The whole thing is just sad really.

(Thanks sometimesginger :flowers:)

[jeanniet]

I guess I just don't find it to be particularly offensive--I mean, it probably really is true that many hair stylists derive a good deal of income from coloring gray hair. I don't think women should feel they have to cover their gray, but many women color their hair for all sorts of reasons. I honestly don't see how it's any different from some of the younger people here who color their hair because they don't like their natural color. Some women don't like their grays, for whatever reason, and I don't think it always has to do with age.

The fact of the matter is that older women do tend to put more money into their hair, even if they don't color it. I think the "short hair over 30" syndrome is really much more constricting to women. Our church congregation has a significant elderly population, with quite a few women in their 80s, and while about half rock their silvers, all but one have short hair. I think that kind of conformity is much more prevalent than the gray issue.

[Quixii]

The article made me feel just kinda disappointed in the world.. and then then I read the comments and felt much better. :D But seriously, if my stylist (if I went to a stylist) wrote such an article, I would never step foot in her shop again.

[FrozenBritannia]

Wow, I wonder if that lady ever did get an apology for her photo being used without permission. It is a lovely photo though :)

I love silver hair. :)

[Rufflebutt]

I don't think it's really offensive because there's obviously a big market for women who don't want their grey to show. It should be a person's choice if they want to cover their grey hairs or not.
The author does seem to assume that all middle-aged or older clients want their grey to never show, but it's nothing to get upset over unless you're easily offended. Even if it's not exactly true.

[Vanille_]

It's funny... just a couple of hours ago, I was trying to convince my 60 year old mother to stop dying her hair. She seems fixated with looking younger and she was surprised when I mentioned how beautiful long grey/silver/white hair is to me. I told her to keep an eye out and she'd see just how beautiful it can be. I know I can't really talk sense to her - I won't understand till I'm older. But I wish older women didn't feel that beauty=young

[Lady Neeva]

Of course, she is also advertising. In the wrong direction.

[pepperminttea]

I don't think it's really offensive [...] but it's nothing to get upset over unless you're easily offended.

So if I referred to your natural hair colour growing in as "horrid" you wouldn't think I was a jerk? Because I'd think I was a jerk, whether you're easily offended or not. :p

[jeanniet]

So if I referred to your natural hair colour growing in as "horrid" you wouldn't think I was a jerk? Because I'd think I was a jerk, whether you're easily offended or not. :p
Well, yeah, that aspect is a negative for me. But if a woman says she hates her gray hair, why is that different from a 17 year old who hates her natural hair color? We see threads here all the time from young women saying, "My natural color is awful." I don't think older women should be pressured to color their hair, but I also don't think that all women who don't want gray hair feel that way because of pressure.

[patienceneeded]

Interesting and rather expected, sadly enough. Gray hair starts early in my family. One of my brothers has had solid gray (like steel wool color) since he turned 19. My other brother has been salt-and-pepper since he was 22. I started coloring my hair at 15, and finally stopped coloring it at 33. Now, I'm 34 and have so much white hair around my hairline that (from the front, with my hair pulled back) I look blonde. I'm interested in seeing if I got my great-grandma's snow-white hair...it looks like it so far! I'm never coloring my hair again.

[natural_shine]

I came across this article (http://www.curlstylist.com/articles/coloring/gray-hair-means-green) today and wanted to share.

I am well aware that there are people who think like this woman, but it was very hurtful to read it in black and white.

Just to add extra insult to injury, the photo she uses is stolen. Read the comments section too, some great replies from women like me tired of this attitude.

:flowers:


I never understood this urge to get white hair covered. I'm 23, but I'm starting to have quite a few white hairs... honestly, I like it. Gives great luminosity.
I don't undertsnad why this is considered unacceptable.
And you ladies here with full heads of white hair flowing long are really an inspiration, you all look gorgeous, it's like a "beauty tip" from nature.
Silver hairs are like daisies blooming on a green uniform lawn. Sure, the green-ness is nice, but why cut the daisies if they decide to pop up? Let them grow.

[Bunnysaur]

My mother goes to a stylist like this. She tried a "new technique" of covering her greys a couple weeks ago (read: she used her as a guinea pig) and it looked absolutely awful.
I've always thought that natural silver, grey, white, whatever lightening hair was gorgeous, and it doesn't need to be messed with. The coloring over never looks quite right, either.

Rini, I've always admired your hair, I think you have one of the most gorgeous silver and gold heads of hair here. It's a shame that there are people like that stylist who want to ruin such beautiful things.

[Honestwitness]

Natural_shine and everyone else...thanks for the nice compliments for us silver sisters. Y'all make me happy!

[Kaelee]

I was shocked at the article then laughed at the comments...I bet that woman felt an inch tall when she read them.

I LOVE silver hair!!! When mine starts going silver, I might stop hennaing so that I can grow it in.

[pepperminttea]

Well, yeah, that aspect is a negative for me. But if a woman says she hates her gray hair, why is that different from a 17 year old who hates her natural hair color? We see threads here all the time from young women saying, "My natural color is awful." I don't think older women should be pressured to color their hair, but I also don't think that all women who don't want gray hair feel that way because of pressure.

Doubtless there are those who dye their hair because they want to and they enjoy it, but my worry is with those who don't, and keep going back despite scalp pain to cover their roots. The pressure on older women to look perpetually young, to hide their silver roots and their age as if those things were something to be ashamed of really bothers me. But then, with most of those threads you mentioned it makes me a bit sad that a person can't reconcile with their natural colour then, too. Often it seems to be dark blondes (a thoroughly under-appreciated hair colour IMHO), or people who had brighter colours as children and their has naturally darkened, so they colour to get back there, as if having it at one stage meant you had to have it for your entire life.

Sorry, I've gone a bit off on one haven't I? :o I'll stop rambling soon, but suffice to say, dyeing is great if it's what you want to do, but I do really dislike that people (of any age) feel that they "have to" in order to be presentable; every colour has it's beauty.

[GlennaGirl]

Well, yeah, that aspect is a negative for me. But if a woman says she hates her gray hair, why is that different from a 17 year old who hates her natural hair color? We see threads here all the time from young women saying, "My natural color is awful." I don't think older women should be pressured to color their hair, but I also don't think that all women who don't want gray hair feel that way because of pressure.

Oh, I don't know. Personally, I do think it's different, because of the social stigma attached to growing older (for women) and its obvious reference in the article. I mean, the fact that the women are gray/old/older (and that this is "horrid") was basically the whole point.

[Navi]

In some ways, it's quite an interesting article, because she's disclosed quite a lot of information about the typical business model used by some (not all) hairdressers.

In my experience the equivalent technique used on those without greys is "You really need some layers in there to make your style sit better." Which means in 8 weeks my hair has grown out all wonky and I desperately need to get it cut again. :confused:

And the unauthorised use of another's picture was really not a smart thing to do.

[GlennaGirl]

^^ That said...

1. The article was very poorly written, with absolutely no life and no personality to it. Yawn.

2. It probably is true that the majority of women over Age X come into her salon for colorings. Women of all ages come in for colorings; with the stigma attached to being grey, an even larger percentage of hair cut clients will also want a color.

3. Although she said it badly, the author was really just getting across a basic tenet of the hair industry (AFAIK...I'm not actually in the industry): Focus on your target group -- the group with more disposable income; the over-35 group (to generalize) -- and create an ongoing need. This guarantees, for you, an ongoing source of income. Maybe that's a stark way to put it, but I personally wasn't under the impression that the hair industry (or most industries) was here out of a sense of generosity. We're talking about a business.

[Crysania]

theres a lot of replies from june15 i wonder if some of them are members from lhc .. after reading your post :)

my mom let her white hair grow about bra strap length once, she kept it like that for many years then dyed it dark brown again ( her previous natural hair color )

she had the hair of an angel it was so pretty, she thinks that she looks younger with brown hair, it just looks shorter and damaged to me ..

[teela1978]

I don't really find the article all that offensive... more practical than anything. I'd say its true. If you want to make money as a hairstylist, ensuring that women who feel the need to cover their greys never have a sharp demarcation line would be a good way to do it. She's feeding into society's issues, not creating her own :shrug:

[letibear]

I did not like anything about this article. I especially do not like how she stole the lady's photo without permission.

I think I understand what the writer meant. She was trying to say that there is indeed a huge market for the women who do choose to cover up their gray hair to feel better about the way they look, and to be sure to plan ahead for such customers.

Her mistake was her very, very poor word choices. I am just playing devil's advocate here. I would hope that she doesn't really believe that the natural graying process is "horrible."

[riceball]

While the attitude expressed in the article is insensitive and offensive, I feel it is rather the norm in the beauty industry. I am NOT excusing it. My point is that I am not exactly shocked. How often do you see on a womens' magazine cover a title like "Get a Better Body" or "Get a Flat Belly in Two Weeks!!"?? All the time! It gets old. The attitude that young, thin and white = beauty is so pervasive that I am not shocked by the article, just disgusted at this woman's audacity to flaunt her ability to prey on people's insecurities.

I don't have greys yet but I would be pissed too ... it might feel like when people tell you that straight hair is way more desireable, and tell you to flat iron or perm..etc.

[GlennaGirl]

In my experience the equivalent technique used on those without greys is "You really need some layers in there to make your style sit better." Which means in 8 weeks my hair has grown out all wonky and I desperately need to get it cut again. :confused:



Oh, there are tons of these!

> "Mrs. GlennaGirl, we fully understand how hard it is to get a child to take good care of her own hair. How about something 'short and easy' for her? It will save you so much time in the morning brushing out tangles."

> "You're 13? I guessed you at 12. I'll bet with a sophisticated cut, nobody would guess you as just a kid any more. Sit down in the chair and let me take care of that for you."

> "Don't you want to look sophisticated and grown-up? You're about to enter the working world. You need Cut X. Badly."

> "Maybe the reason your boss doesn't take you seriously is that you just don't LOOK serious. You want to look high-rent, you want to look fabulous and you want to look like a pro. You need to chop away some of that mop for that."

> (sound of timer going off) "You're almost 30 and you're wearing your hair long? No, no, I'm not saying you should be embarrassed or anything...just...well....of course, it's up to you..."

> "Long hair over 30 drags your face down. You look (dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNNNNN) so much older that way. You need to snip off some of that stuff on your head!"

> "Long hair over 40 makes you look like you're trying to stay young, somehow. I'm only telling you this so you don't embarrass yourself..."

> "Long hair over 55 makes you look like Morticia Addams or a crazy person in an asylum or something. Cut. Cut cut cut cut cut."

Those are only cut examples...there are plenty more that keep us returning to the hairdresser:

"Your hair is bushy. Not a good look. You need a thinning shears haircut." - "Your hair is too thin. Cutting it short will make it look thinner."

"That blonde looks brassy on you. You need lowlights to tone it down." - "Your hair is so drab. You totally need highlights!"

"Brown is so ordinary. You need to spice it up with a different color." "Colors that are too 'different' just don't look good. You really need us to dye it to brown for you. It will look much more natural."

"Long hair isn't good for a long face. And it makes a short face look out of balance. And it drags down a rectangular face. And it makes an oval look like she's trying to hard to be 'classic'. As for a square face, don't get me started................"

:p

But it is a business. They will continue to attempt to create a need, with every client.

[jillosity]

This reminds me of an article written by a chiropractor I read years ago when I was a massage therapist. He basically said to definitely have a massage therapist at your chiro office because they were flaky and easily manipulated, plus you could take a cut of their fee.

Neat guy! Perhaps he's already met this stylist! ;)

[dulce]

Someone asked if anyone from LHF replied to the blog ,I did.I felt offended to hear silver hair called horrid.That was rude and inappropriate.I quit going to hairdressers about 3 years ago as they kept telling me silver hair would make me look so old and growing my hair long was so unfashioneable.Sadly there are quite a few hairdressers like her with that attitude[not all but a lot] so I learned to cut my own hair and now never go to a salon at all ,ever.

[Slug Yoga]

Oh, there are tons of these!

"Long hair over 55 makes you look like Morticia Addams or a crazy person in an asylum or something. Cut. Cut cut cut cut cut."
:p



LOL at all these. And if someone wants to scare me off by saying it'll make me look like Morticia Addams? Not gonna work as intended! :laugh:

[teela1978]

She didn't really call silver hair horrible though, she called silver roots horrible.

Personally I generally hate the look of roots as well, whether they be silver against black, dark brown against blonde, or brown against red. It looks undone. I hated it on myself as I grew out hairdye (red with mousy brown roots). The only exception I can think of is when boomtownrat had that awesome contrast about mid-grow-out with bright red hair and bright white roots. Does anyone not think an inch of off-color roots looks a bit awful on most people?

[Jesabel]

It's stylists like these that give others a bad name! I loved all the comments though, they were great :grin:

The hairdresser my mum and I go to (my mums friend) always does what you want, or makes a few suggestions but never pressures and never pushes to dye your hair or cover greys. I'm growing out my natural colour (ashy blonde/brown) and she is encouraging me to do so, and my mum hasn't coloured her hair in 8 months and has some lovely greys coming through that are fine like the rest of her hair, and our hairdresser only compliments them :) She supports whatever decision, to dye or not - though when I was killing my hair she would always try to suggest semi dyes and heat protectants, but did I listen...

[dulce]

''Gray hair might be bad for your clients.."such a negative attitude,maybe some of her clients truly hate their gray hair but am sure not all do.As an older lady I know several women who would love to get off their expensive ,time consuming colour-go-round and try silver but are strongly advised not to by their hairstylists so they cave to the pressure.We must always try and look young,and fashioneable once we age! Does she even give her clients that choice?Does she support those clients of hers that tentavely ask if gray or even long and gray could look good? Doesn't sound like that by the tone of her blog.That's what I dislike,the fact so many stylists don't give us older ladies a choice.Why not support those that may want a change and to try silver/and or long and silver hair?I certainly got no support only veiled threats of how bad I'd look and trying to scare me that I'd look old.Funny,I am 60 now,I will never look young again,dyeing my hair won't change that.It's such a crock we older ladies are fed and it makes me sad .This blog just reinforces the fact that what happened to me was not unique but probably widespread.If a woman wants to dye,thats her choice and that's encouraged but other choices are not. Glad I walked away from all that nonsense.

[Thenolegirl]

Someone asked if anyone from LHF replied to the blog ,I did.I felt offended to hear silver hair called horrid.That was rude and inappropriate.I quit going to hairdressers about 3 years ago as they kept telling me silver hair would make me look so old and growing my hair long was so unfashioneable.Sadly there are quite a few hairdressers like her with that attitude[not all but a lot] so I learned to cut my own hair and now never go to a salon at all ,ever.

I read the article, and it was not wise of her to just blatantly put her methods out there (with a stolen picture). I have enough insecurities caused by the world - this is just terrible.

And dulce, your hair is beautiful! =) I want my hair to look like yours when my silver comes around.

[dulce]

Thanks Thenolegirl! If I'd listened to stylists I'd still have the shorter [in my case,flat brassy dyed] hair that was damaged,dry and breaking off even when coloured at the salon.My hair improved so much,got thicker and shinier once I stopped dyeing.What I thought was old age damaging my hair turned out to be the salon colourings ,that was a surprise,didn't find that out till I grew long and quit all colouring and found out my hair was recovering .

[ravenreed]

The article didn't bug me any more than any other business talking about how to generate sales would. The sad fact is that many women in the working world (and elsewhere) feel the need to dye their greys. Until the beauty standards of our society change to accept women over a certain age as beautiful, and until the gender standards change to accept than an older woman has the exact same value as an older man, many women are going to dye their greys.

For the record, I like my silver regrowth much less than my darker regrowth. It stands out much more, and looks more odd. I am now dyeing my hair more often than I used to, just to deal with how visible the silver regrowth is. I would be dyeing my hair anyway, I just do it a week or so earlier than I would previously.

[HintOfMint]

Honestly, I can't get upset about this. She's acknowledging a demand that is consistent and high. She's also encouraging hairdressers to possibly get their heads out of the mindset that they have to constantly chase the young and trendy crowd because that's not necessarily where the money is. Reasonable business advice.

If I'm going to be angry, I'm going to be angry at the boss who bullies her employees for not dying her hair, or passing her over for showing her age. I'm going to be angry at the husband who cannot maintain "enthusiasm" for his wife who shows a bit of gray when he not only has some liberal salt in his pepper but has a paunch to boot. I'm going to be angry at the thousands of beauty and relationship gurus who feel compelled to comment on how ALL women of a certain age should act, dress, and groom themselves.

I'm not going to be angry at this piece of sensible advice.

But the stealing photos thing is absolutely wrong. I'll be mad about that.

[ravenreed]

Agreed. There is so much pressure on women, from so many different areas of society... My mom has gone grey and is completely thrilled. She is also retired and single and only has to care what SHE thinks about her hair. When she was still a "corporate worm" (her words, not mine) she was competing against much younger people, most of whom were male. She felt she had to dye her hair to stay competitive. It was part of the corporate uniform.

The photo stealing is wrong, and some of the wording of the article was a little... condescending maybe? But businesses need to make money or they don't stay in business. As long as the stylist is giving the clients what they want, then she is doing her job, as far as I am concerned.



Honestly, I can't get upset about this. She's acknowledging a demand that is consistent and high. She's also encouraging hairdressers to possibly get their heads out of the mindset that they have to constantly chase the young and trendy crowd because that's not necessarily where the money is. Reasonable business advice.

If I'm going to be angry, I'm going to be angry at the boss who bullies her employees for not dying her hair, or passing her over for showing her age. I'm going to be angry at the husband who cannot maintain "enthusiasm" for his wife who shows a bit of gray when he not only has some liberal salt in his pepper but has a paunch to boot. I'm going to be angry at the thousands of beauty and relationship gurus who feel compelled to comment on how ALL women of a certain age should act, dress, and groom themselves.

I'm not going to be angry at this piece of sensible advice.

But the stealing photos thing is absolutely wrong. I'll be mad about that.

[jeanniet]

I guess I don't see it as any different from any other aspect of marketing. Let's face it, to a huge extent our economy runs on the premise that making people feel they're missing out in some way equals big bucks. If people were completely satisfied with every aspect of their lives, marketing wouldn't have any effect on them. Look at Apple, the fashion industry, Hair Club for Men, car commercials, everything. It's all predicated on creating the myth that we're not good enough or happy enough unless we run out and buy XYZ. Older women shouldn't feel bad about their silvers, any more than men should feel bad because they're balding, or young women feel bad because their hair isn't the right color.

Maybe it doesn't bother me because I am an older woman and I just don't care about the hair industry, so it makes no difference to me. I have to say, though, I do know many older women who are quite comfortable with their age and still color their hair. I don't know why, but they like it. I don't think any of them would feel somehow dejected and old if they didn't color, but they still want to.

[Rini]

Maybe the use of the word "offensive" in my thread title was not quite right. I think that this article is just sad. VERY sad. I feel sad for the lady who wrote it and sad for the women who fall for the myth.

It just makes me sad :(

[ravenreed]

Exactly, I really dye my hair because in my little mind, it should be burgundy. It is only a mistake of nature that it isn't already so! It has nothing to do with my age (or grey hairs) at all. In fact, when I was first dyeing my hair, I picked burgundy because it was so unusual and sort of anti-beauty industry. Now it is just part of my self identity.

Marketing as a whole makes me very angry. There is a lot of money tied up into how to convince people to buy more crap they don't need. I think it is a terrible way to run a society, personally.



I guess I don't see it as any different from any other aspect of marketing. Let's face it, to a huge extent our economy runs on the premise that making people feel they're missing out in some way equals big bucks. If people were completely satisfied with every aspect of their lives, marketing wouldn't have any effect on them. Look at Apple, the fashion industry, Hair Club for Men, car commercials, everything. It's all predicated on creating the myth that we're not good enough or happy enough unless we run out and buy XYZ. Older women shouldn't feel bad about their silvers, any more than men should feel bad because they're balding, or young women feel bad because their hair isn't the right color.

Maybe it doesn't bother me because I am an older woman and I just don't care about the hair industry, so it makes no difference to me. I have to say, though, I do know many older women who are quite comfortable with their age and still color their hair. I don't know why, but they like it. I don't think any of them would feel somehow dejected and old if they didn't color, but they still want to.

[TheMechaGinger]

I'm only 20 and don't have any yet, but I can confidently say I'm never going to dye my grays! Self confidence is so much more beautiful on a woman than any dye could ever be

[ravenreed]

A lot going on in the beauty industry makes me sad, because it revolves around making women feel inferior, no matter how gorgeous they may already be. And, they are doing a very good job of it.


Maybe the use of the word "offensive" in my thread title was not quite right. I think that this article is just sad. VERY sad. I feel sad for the lady who wrote it and sad for the women who fall for the myth.

It just makes me sad :(

[Elenna]

Short, dyed, fried hair is supposed to make me look younger!!! Youth can't be faked with dyed hair. Maybe a a person could look a couple of years younger but not decades. Dyeing one's hair doesn't change a person's age. This is to get women to spend their money on anti-aging products and services. Older women are the target. At any salon, it is disturbing to see much younger hair dressers with much older clients.

Long hair isn't what? Fashionable! Just because an older person has styled (read short), dyed hair doesn't mean that they are fashionable.

This whole stigma/unfashionable thing about gray hair is a blatant sales gimmick.

[piffyanne]

I posted this on my facebook wall with a mass message that I hope a few of my older friends will see:

"To all the women I know who are trapped in a cycle of dying to disguise your grey hairs, here's a spiteful article about grey hairs written by a stylist about how to keep greying women paying, and a backlash of wonderful comments from women who were brave enough to embrace their real hair.

If (as I suspect will happen) this link is broken by the time you see it (I bet you anything the stylist will take it down when she sees the reactions she's provoked, to protect her image), feel free to message me, I've saved it. It's very freeing to know there are other options to dying, and I'd like to be the first person to say I'll LOVE your grey hair.

I've been looking forward to MY future "Sparklies" for years, and I embrace yours, even if you don't yet. >hugs<"

The tyrrany (as I see it) of the beauty industry over the guidelines women of a gracious age (40's term) should conform to is very saddening to me.

[Gogobaby]

I love silver, since I was a kid I have... I will never forget my science teacher who let a streak of silver grow from her widow's peak through her long black curly hair. All completely natural and she looked amazing. And I got a double A in Science - I mean, I really paid attention to her! I personally found the article very offensive. For those that didn't, maybe you would if your natural hair colour was called - and I quote "horrible". The woman was only concerned about acquiring cash from older ladies that she narrowly wants to conform to looking 'younger' as grey is associated with age. What a piece of work. The point is women should not be continually denigrated, especially by other women as the struggle we have daily in an established patriarchy is bad enough. She doesn't mention men at all - Richard Gere and Sean Connery didn't exactly need to cover their silvers.

The replies to the article were spot on. I'm a bit sad that some were not so supportive here, but horay for the majority who were!

Grey hair is quite simply awesome.

[auburntressed]

I'm not sure I would call it "offensive," but it certainly is very blunt. Namely, she admits openly that hairdressers are in the business of making money. So she uses tactics that she knows will earn her the most money. I'm really not a fan of hairdressers anyways, but the fact is that everyone has to make a living some how. That's her chosen profession, and she uses a pretty good strategy to make bank. There is a lot of sense in her statement that college students are usually broke; but baby boomers have money to spend and can be a consistent source of income. And she knows that many women are insecure about graying hair, so she capitalizes on it. The entire beauty industry is based on making women feel bad about themselves so they will buy a product to fix that feeling. This woman isn't the only perpetrator here. In some ways, she is just a product of "The System."

[Bene]

I didn't see the article as offensive in the least. She's rather matter-of-fact about her business and her clients. She provides a service they want, in a way that suits everyone involved. It's objective, and she didn't berate grey hair or the people who choose to keep their hair grey. She's not pushing the "Grey hair is bad" agenda, she is servicing the people who already have that opinion. I read it carefully for the potential offensive parts, and I didn't see it.


Her clients walk out happy and feeling like there's a game plan, which is probably more comforting than "yeah, we'll get around to it, eventually". It's aggressive and scheduled, and for people who place importance on these things, they come out knowing that they have it under control.

[Dragon]

I don’t see anything wrong with colouring gray hair but I hate how women are made to feel bad and insecure about it.

It has always confused me when you here Long hair over 40 makes you look like you're trying to stay young, somehow but don’t they say you should colour your hair to make you look younger :confused:

[MonaMayfair]

She sounds quite unpleasant and it was funny how all the comments called her out!
But there's no rule that says people HAVE to like white hair, I don't like it myself. If you dislike your natural color there's nothing wrong with dyeing it.
I'm not crazy about my natural color either...

[MintChocChip]

It is sad that the writer of this article is promoting the idea of covering silver hair as being something which makes you better looking. Has she not seen Matt LeBlanc in Episodes?! What a silver fox! I don't see him dyeing his hair to look better! The same goes for loads of celebrities actually, Julie Walters was talking about embracing her silvers in an interview recently, and she looks gorgeous and happy. People should just embrace whatever they decide they want to do with their hair/appearance/whatever whether that's dyeing their hair or keeping it au naturale and be happy and confident. Anybody else who says looking a certain way is better is wrong, frankly.

[Rini]

Here's a fun exercise (for those who are not quite "getting" the bad feeling this provokes amongst the silver girls): try substituting the word "gray" with "brunette". I have copied some of the sentences from the article below with that substitution:


"They have a consistent income, they want to cover their brunette and they need to look polished and professional constantly."
"When I have a client that is starting to get more brunette, I know that they will be making an investment in their appearance"
"This keeps the client on a schedule; they never have to worry about their brunette showing and your books will be full."
"They are the most reliable clients because they do not want to be caught with horrible brunette roots."


If I were a brunette I might get a bad impression from those words. I might think that:


I should be covering my brunette hair or I won't looked polished and professional.
As I get more brunette I should spend more money on fighting it.
Having brunette hair is something I should worry about.
My brunette hair is horrible.


Now I'm not saying that everybody would come to those conclusions. Indeed for myself, I did not think those things. I feel that having silver hair is a legitimate colour choice. I could easily dye it, but I CHOOSE to have silver hair. I actually like it. At my age, I am most definitely in the minority. I'm just sick of the assumption that older women are going to want to cover their silver hair.

MonaMayfair, you are quite correct that there is no rule to say that you have to like white hair. You don't have to like black, blue, pink, blonde, red or green hair either. I'm sorry you don't like white hair either...and yes, if you want to dye then go right ahead. BUT....I object to a general opinion that women with silver hair NEED to dye it. I'm fine with them wanting to, but not if it's out of some sense of conformity or obligation. Everybody should have a choice and not be made to feel that one hair colour is superior over another.

Is there any other hair colour that gets this sort of treatment? Of course not. I have yet to see an advertisement telling women to "wash that brunette right out of your hair". It's all about staying youthful and silver hair to the beauty industry is an indication of being old.

I do know how it is in "the system". I'm just tired of it, that's all :shake:

[Rini]

It is sad that the writer of this article is promoting the idea of covering silver hair as being something which makes you better looking. Has she not seen Matt LeBlanc in Episodes?! What a silver fox! I don't see him dyeing his hair to look better! The same goes for loads of celebrities actually, Julie Walters was talking about embracing her silvers in an interview recently, and she looks gorgeous and happy. People should just embrace whatever they decide they want to do with their hair/appearance/whatever whether that's dyeing their hair or keeping it au naturale and be happy and confident. Anybody else who says looking a certain way is better is wrong, frankly.

Yes, and you bring up an excellent point about men! The author mentions mothers and mother's mothers....where are the fathers? Oh, that's right...it's OK for men to be silver.:rolleyes:

[Mesmerise]

Hmm well... I'm not really offended by the article... I guess because I am one of those women who DOES cover her grays, and I guess if I were the sort to go to a regular hairdresser I would ;). However, I'm happy enough just cutting my own hair and hennaing over my grays :D.

The way I see it, a lot of women DO want to cover their gray hair, and they DO feel self conscious about their grays showing, and this article is really just acknowledging that. Obviously if you don't want to colour your grays, that's perfectly fine, and you'll never be a client of such a hairdresser!

But it's also true that for hairdressers a lot of their income is repeat business, and it does sort of make business sense to create a "plan" for your clients that meets THEIR needs (which in this case is to stay professional and polished looking, and hide their grays when they come in). If people aren't interested in that, then they're not going to be regular clients for that sort of treatment - end of story.

All this being said, I DO think naturally gray or silver or white (or whatever!) coloured hair can look lovely. It's just not something I'm ready for... and it's not something a lot of other women are ready for either. That's okay too ;). I won't be giving all my money to a hairdresser to do my hair, when I can do it naturally myself, and that's perfectly fine as well :D.

(Hmm and on the "horrid roots" comment... I thought it was more along the lines of a sharp demarcation between roots and dyed hair looks bad, not so much that it's because the roots are an awful gray colour... but maybe that's just my perception? I don't feel she was saying that gray hair looks horrid... more the roots do, and let's be honest, most of us really DON'T like our roots showing - and if it were possible to go from dyed hair to natural hair (gray or not) they'd do it in a heartbeat if they didn't have to go through the whole growing out process!!). I honestly can't see myself going to gray until I'm prepared to cut all my hair off... because, seriously I'd have heavily hennaed lengths and gray roots... which growing at only half an inch a month... would look dreadful for several years while I try to go natural! I don't think blonde to gray looks so bad, because there's not such a sharp contrast, but very dark or bright red to gray is massively different).

[MintChocChip]

Yes, and you bring up an excellent point about men! The author mentions mothers and mother's mothers....where are the fathers? Oh, that's right...it's OK for men to be silver.:rolleyes:

Yeah, I do think as a general rule men who have silver hair are seen as maybe a little bit sexier than women with silver hair. It's just another misogynstic viewpoint (the one I personally get frustrated by is the whole men who are single and a bit older are bachelors, and women are spinsters. Of course, it all makes perfect sense. *sigh*
Or the other one, men who sleep around are just one of the lads, but women who might choose to sleep around are slags. Since when is that sort of weird sexism ok?! Our society is really misogynistic, it's ridiculous.

Sorry going off topic a bit here... The reason I mentioned LeBlanc is just because I was trying to think of someone who is properly embracing their silver hair and he sprang to mind, but you're right it's seen as a lot more acceptable for him and men in general to keep their silvers than women. Even Helen Mirren who has been out and about with her lovely silver hair, does like to, on occasion, dye her hair blonde! :( Of course, there's nothing wrong with people choosing to dye their silvers blonde but it is interesting that the viewpoint over whether silver hair looks good is skewed when gender comes into the equation. There's more pressure on women to dye their silver hair, because men who have silvers are still considered sexy, whereas women are seen as letting themselves go. Gah!

End of rant.

[Jing]

I wonder if she really sat down and had a think about what she was going to write. Hey people, here's an article I wrote about how to prey on a certain clientele! It's good advice for a hair dresser looking to make as much money as possible, but it's not generally a good idea to admit that you only "care for" your clients because this keeps them coming back with their wallets. I mean, "Once your client realizes that you have a plan for them and their looks, they will be yours forever", really? Is anyone else getting a mental picture of this woman as an evil vampire laughing manically before her hoards of zombie slaves? ... Probably not, I'm just a bit weird. *cough*

Anyway, if she was trying to promote the practice of covering grey hair with dye in a society where this was not the done thing by calling grey roots "horrible" and so on, I would be horrified and offended. But she's simply a business woman taking advantage of an established norm to make money. It's crass and predatory, but not in the least surprising or unusual.

Personally I'm very impatiently waiting to turn grey, but each to their own. I just wish women who dyed their hair universally did so because they wanted to, not out of fear. More and more black women are embracing their natural hair texture, maybe grey hair is next?

[ariesfairies]

The woman sounds more like an esteem-killer than a hair-helper.
Or like a drug-dealer trying to make up more addicts - except addiction to trying to get their fix at a hair salon :/

[jacqueline101]

I'm not gray haired but what's so terrible about it in the fashion industry. I mean real life people have them.

[WinterDream]

I love silver/grey hair, but that's not exactly the point here.

Her mercenary attitude is not much of a surprise either - I'm still more baffled at how otherwise successful and intelligent women are still allowing themselves to be taken advantage of by the beauty/fashion industry in general but that's another rant - so even if this lady is just being realistic and "down to earth" in seeing her clients as just a resource to be optimally exploited, she's making a mistake in being so brass and blunt about it. With the exposure the internet and social media get these days, she stands a better chance of losing a significant part of her client&#232;le (especially the more affluent one) instead of "making it hers for life". If she can't see/respect others as human beings, disguising it would serve her business better.

[coastalnicole]

This is why I like the stylist who does my highlights...I have peek-a-boo highlights in my hair so that you can actually see the curls, not A BIG BLACK MASS OF HAIR, and I mentioned to him that I was actually looking forward to having a bit of gray to give my hair that extra depth. He said that he suggests to the clients whose grays he covers that they try going natural for a change, but that they rarely take him up on the offer. I think it's a good stylist's job to suggest but not push ideas. He also gave me a trim that was actually a trim, not a big chop.

[browneyedsusan]

I didn't read every post, but think the article is dead-on.

I haven't liked my natural color since I had children--something hormonal changed my hair?--and have visited the hairdresser regularly for cuts and colors. Hairdresser never pressured me to cover my gray, and made me look great when I visited her.

This year, when I discovered henna, I fell in love with my hair again and decided to grow it out. I visited Hairdresser and very gently told her I'd call her when I needed her, but it probably would be at least a year. She took it pretty well, but she knew the money train wasn't making another stop.

I do think some hairdressers have very good intentions. They want us to look good, and at the same time, they must make a living. Do some put us on the most expensive maintenance routine in the world? Yeah, probably. I don't think mine did, and I'm certain she would work with me to grow out my gray, if I ever decide to go that route.

[Amber_Maiden]

Wow- can't believe she stole that photo!!! And ever apologized!

I want to be a silver fox one day!!

[Linnet]

I'm with you, Dulce! You wont find me going anywhere near a hairdressers any more because they are in the business of making money and frankly, I haven't found one yet that actually cares for your hair and for what you want! One thing that always stikes me as funny, is how highlights are strongly recommended to brighten hair for many women and yet, silver hair is providing just that - Nature's highlights, without all the harmful (and expensive) chemicals! In my opinion, what doesn't look natural is when you see a head of dyed hair with obvious silver roots growing out in a block. Natural silvers look so much softer and beautiful. Can't wait until mine is totally silver!

[Amygirl8]

Silver hair is horrible?
Back in history, I thought it was respected, as usually only elders had it and they were greatly respected.
Then again, now it's all about looking as young as you can be.
How disgusting.

In my personal opinion, silver is the prettiest hair colour. It's silver- shiny, gorgeous, majestic. It makes me think of wolves and silver foxes and mountains and stuff like that. I can't wait until I can have a long mane of silver hair. It's far, far in the future, but it's something I'll be looking forward to :]

[long&blonde]

Wow. This article offended me, and I'm not easily offended. Why: I specifically went to a salon, told them I wanted to Stop Dying my coming in snow white hair, please just give me an all over blonde on my home dyed uneven light blonde,that snow roots could come in w/little demarcation? Like, how clear is that statement? The salon girl obviously read it as "red alert; big tipper leaving!" And dyed my hair the darkest ash blonde all over, ever. Then, ever since; all stylists say "with your length, we can't lighten allready dyed dark ends to better match snow roots". My roots show; it feels like minutes. I am still not going monthly for touchups; switched salons to have old stylist I trust tell me same thing;can't lighten all my length now,so white roots less shocking looking. I booked an apt. 2 months after his last, to see what he is talking about "low lights painted in,so my white roots look more like highlights?" I am sooo tempted to go get the closest nice & easy dye closet to my roots, 2 boxs on my salon highlights, low lights, and say adios. Lol. Of course I've heard from every stylist everywhere "nooooo." After dying my hair myself, 15 to about 55.

[long&blonde]

Love that you compared silver hair:which I do/would, have, to wolves and mountains. Two of my very favorite things. My next argument with a stylist;which of course interprets as "the next time I set foot in a hair salon." I will be quoting you as my Defense. Thanks, lawyer!
Stylist "But whhhhhhy are you trying to go grey?" (They always Say grey;my hair is ghost white) "Because it reminds me of mountains, wolves ; and Ghosts. 3 of my favorite things." My last "discussion" lol with my stylist gave me a quote now written on my worker side:cube wall at work;name plaque; "You say "Hag" as if it's a Bad thing!" I had all other women in salon clapping and cracking up.

[dollyfish]

I don't think the article is offensive, per se, but it does leave a bad taste in my mouth. I know making money is the goal of any service or product, but this sounds like a hairdresser that doesn't serve people, she serves hair. It almost makes it sound like she's somehow taking advantage of her clients (though of course this is not the case). And of course, there's the assumption that ANYONE with gray hair will OBVIOUSLY want it dyed, so those are always the clients to aim for.

I'm never going to dye my hair when it turns gray. Unless it's temporary colors, because I'll finally be able to try them on my (now dark) hair. I've never thought of gray hair as unattractive. I suppose many of the women I admired and thought beautiful as a child had gray, white or silver hair. I once had a gym teacher with incredibly thick, classic length WHITE hair and I wished on a few stars for white hair when I got old so I could be like her :p

[Madora]

Sheesh! Moneygrubber much?!!! Talk about condescending and completely self-absorbed!

[natural_shine]

.............................

Is there any other hair colour that gets this sort of treatment? Of course not. I have yet to see an advertisement telling women to "wash that brunette right out of your hair". It's all about staying youthful and silver hair to the beauty industry is an indication of being old.

I do know how it is in "the system". I'm just tired of it, that's all :shake:


Hm... I showed your avatar pic to my mom, scrolled down a bit so she won't see ur age. My mother is a die hard pixie cut & dye user... I asked her what she thinks is missing from the photo. Without hesitation- mom-"she should dye it, she looks older like that" me-"well, how old do u think she is?" mom- "25-27?".

Yeah. Definetly makes you look "older".

I've been trying to shake the thoughts off her head (well, literally, it seems, lol) since I was a kid, but no good. I know I'll never convince her to let her hair grow a tiny bit , as she's so neurotic about chopping it all the time, but I think it's still worth a try to convince her to let go of the dye. She has the ideea that if the lets her gray hair show she will look ungroomed, unprofessional.Maybe our work-ahoolic society made a masculinisation of women, lined them to "look uniforms". It's sad so few can see.

Media mashes our brains like potatoes until we think we need useless products to look pretty. Natural beauty, the natural colours of us are more suprizing.

[Henrietta]

Pfff... What an attitude! Anything to keep the clients, anything to fill the wallet, right? I understand that the clients know what they want but maybe, despite this, it would be useful to show them natural options?
And even if people want to cover they grays, I wouldn't be happy to know that there is a whole psychological project to keep me in the salon. Creepy.

[jeanniet]

Reading the article again, she doesn't really say what she thinks about gray hair. She's talking about what her clients with gray hair want, and they don't want grays. As a colorist, is she supposed to turn away older women who come in to have their grays covered, or try to talk them out of it? Her job is to do what her clients want--aren't we always complaining about stylists who don't do what we tell them to? I don't think she is to blame for a societal attitude, even if she's making her living from it. We might just as well criticize stylists who do short cuts on older women, in that case, because they're also encouraging their clients to conform to a societal norm that says older women can't have long hair--and short cuts are more lucrative. I don't see the problem with wanting to make a good living by doing what your clients want.

[RitaCeleste]

Its just honest. She sees women who want to hide grey. They do spend more than women who don't want to cover grey. And yes people like money. Many people like it a lot. I'm using henna right now to cover my hair. I got a color in a salon once and dropped $90. I'm a do it yourself kind of girl, I've been coloring red for awhile. Just did the henna thing. When I go all grey I'll grow the henna out and manic panic it blue to celebrate fun colors bleach free. Women shouldn't feel like they need to cover grey just because its grey. But its nice to remember if you get negative comments on grey from a stylist, they might just want to make more money. Same for highlights, those need to be maintained. Kinda funny, you have no grey, you need streaks, you have grey you need to hide, wouldn't want streaks...

[faellen]

I don't find it offensive. Many women want to cover their grey hair, it's hardly uncommon and stylists get a lot of business from women who want to dye their greys. I fully admire those that embrace their greys but the fact is that many still don't like the aesthetic. No need to get offended over it, how boring the world would be if we all liked the same things!

Ok so she wants to make money but she is doing so by keeping her customers happy. What's wrong with that?

[jeanniet]

I don't find it offensive. Many women want to cover their grey hair, it's hardly uncommon and stylists get a lot of business from women who want to dye their greys. I fully admire those that embrace their greys but the fact is that many still don't like the aesthetic. No need to get offended over it, how boring the world would be if we all liked the same things!

Ok so she wants to make money but she is doing so by keeping her customers happy. What's wrong with that?
One of the biggest subjects on this forum is stylists who don't listen to their clients--they cut too much, they cut in layers when not wanted, they botch color jobs--so why be critical of someone who does give her clients what they're asking for, even if we wouldn't choose that for ourselves? As far as the money aspect goes, a stylist's income depends on making her clients happy, and if you're a colorist for older women, that necessarily means keeping their roots covered. In any profession, if you don't cater to your clients' wishes, you don't make money, and if you don't make money, you don't eat. Apparently she'sgood at what she does and her clients are happy. I don't want her coloring my grays, but if someone else does, fine by me.

[dulce]

Linnet,I agree with you on the irony of highlights[salon vs natural silver]One is free ,the other a cash cow.How about the "long hair is unfashioneable" many of us are told,they cut the hair[cash] and later offer to sell you very expensive extensions[more cash-lots of it!]Guess I'm just sick of it all,the hypocrasy of the ways the beauty industry manipulates women ,makes us feel we're not good enough as we naturally are[no money in that] and we need them to fix us all for money of course.Like Rini says she's tired of it and so am I.We can't change the system and there are ladies that feel their hairdresser is a lifesaver ,keeping them forever young or polished and professional through chemicals so hairdressers like this are needed for that demographic.Just sad ,she gives me the feel she doesn't respect or even care much for her older clients that worry about those expensive gray roots.But to each his own.Am just glad I escaped from all this madness.

[elbow chic]

To me, it's her sharing a marketing plan. Maybe sort of ruthless, but how is that bad?

Yes, stylists would be out a lot of money if we all just quit coloring and cutting. Having dependable, motivated clients with cash to spend is a good thing for anyone who needs to make a living. ;) My MIL is definitely a more desirable salon client than I am. She shows up every six weeks without fail to get a cut and color-- money is not a problem-- I show up once every couple years for the cheapest trim I can get. :laugh:

[natural_shine]

When I was little there wasn't even the term "stylist" around. :)

There's a whole money-making machine around our hair, definetly. If everyone would grow hair long like ... before Chanel.... well, yes, hair salons wouldn't make any big money... barbers for cutting men's and children's hair would be enough.

It is all a mather of taste though, we may share some kind of ...long hair ****** here. I mean, women who like boots high up tho the knee saw and admired them on other women when they were little, and started liking them and wanting them for themselfs, and, as grown women, see shorter boots as masculine and unpretty. While other women like me, just find tall boots too much trouble to put on,and nothing sexy about them, so I go for the shorter ones. LOL Might be the same thing with hair.

[dulce]

As an interesting tidbit,till around age 54 or a bit older?[can't quite remember] but in my mid 50's somewhere ,I was one of those women who worried about her"ugly"gray roots,and had short age -appropriate salon styled [pixie] hair and had to cut/ dye every 3 weeks.My hubbie had been after me for years to stop dyeing and grow long again.I finally woke up,stopped listening to the hairdressers,listened to hubbie and did that.To my surprise my thin damaged flat coloured brittle previously dyed hair became healthy,shiny and thick again as it grew long and I love my silvery streaks.If I could somehow get back my original colour,I wouldn't want it now,ironically I love my natural streaked silvery icy shiny colour now much more than my natural brown colour of years ago.Now I only wish I'd listened to hubbie years ago.All those chemicals,all those hours sitting in a salon chair,all that money..

[PixxieStix]

I don't find the information so offending, as this is obviously written for those who work in a salon who wish to find a "niche" and provide services that benefit them while also benefiting their customers. Granted, her writing style was bland as plain white bread and shame on her for using a photograph that was not her own, especially without permission! I hate that she seems to have fallen into the "take advantage of women who feel the aren't good enough the way they are" hole that much of the population is in, but that's the field she has chosen to make a living in and must do what she can I suppose.

Personally, I can't wait to get my silver hair! I really, really hope I take after my great-grandmother with a gorgeous head of silver hair in my 60/70's, and not my grandmother who is nearly 70 and JUST starting to show some sparklies! Granted, I might need the help of a good stylist to help me grow out the henna once my silver comes in, but it certainly wouldn't be the stylist who wrote this article.

[Micayla47]

the irony is that the woman in the picture looks like she has silver hair and she's absolutely stunning!!

[Caldonia Sun]

To me, it's her sharing a marketing plan. Maybe sort of ruthless, but how is that bad?

Yes, stylists would be out a lot of money if we all just quit coloring and cutting. Having dependable, motivated clients with cash to spend is a good thing for anyone who needs to make a living.:

I agree with this. It's how she makes her living. We can buy into that mindset or go the natural route. Fortunately, it's our choice. I'm seeing more and more women who are bucking that system and opting for silver.

[spidermom]

OMG! I really hit it off lucky! When my silver hairs became apparent in my early to mid-40s, I asked my stylist at the time if we should consider color for my gray hair. She told me that it wasn't gray, it was silvery blonde, and it was going to be stunning. "Don't touch it!" she advised me.

[spidermom]

P.S. - As far as a business model, I can't really complain. We all have to make money in one way or another. My salary depends upon people needing to come to the hospital for imaging tests, so basically I make my money off the sick and the injured. That doesn't mean I'm out there causing automobile accidents and spreading plague.

[Changling]

LOL she really got flamed XD There are like 15 comments, all shaming her for slight on silver hairs. Bet she'll think twice before she writes an article like that again.

[dulce]

I had a thick white streak in the center of my bangs in my mid 30's so started colouring then,can you imagine how much more money I'd have now if I'd been smart and invested that money through the years ?Instead of spending it at hairdressers?Well,life is a learning journey,and this is one of my many regrets.Am glad to see some of you younger gals aren't going to fall in the trap I did.

[Glenn]

I think that when women go naturally gray, silver, white, whatever, that it's wonderful...

I saw a women the other day that was clearly in her 80s with jet black hair... Even if it didn't look extremely fake (which it did), it seemed quite a ridiculous attempt at appearing younger, because it provided no such illusion.

[dulce]

You were lucky SPIDERMOM![and your hair is gorgeous by the way!]wish someone other than my hubbie[like a hairdresser] had told me that.We were a military family and moved a lot when we we younger,so I had a lot of different hairdressers through the years and not one hairdresser ever encouraged me to go natural,just got the usual scare tactics of looking old etc.so I do feel like I was duped.

[cindy58]

It sounds purely profit motivated to me -- she doesn't care about anything other than convincing people that they HAVE to have her services very frequently.

Many of us (me included) know better!

[Ice Fox]

I do love the various comparisons between silver haired women and wolves. Alas, at shoulder length I have around 3 inches of growing-out highlights and the rest is a natural mix of grey (mostly on the top and at the front), dark mousy blond and a bit of vaguely reddish-brown. So at present I think I'm not so much in touch with my inner wolf as with my inner Yorkshire Terrier! But I aspire!

I thought that rather than give more airtime to the 'hairdresser' (can't remember her name, and frankly I can't be bothered) I would - instead - list, in no particular order, the first four names that pop into my head in terms of awesome silveryness:

Emmy-Lou Harris
Professor Mary Beard
Julie Walters
Christine Lagarde

And if we're talking 'professional and polished' Christine Lagarde surely fits the bill as Head of the International Monetary Fund! Of course, if she dumped a shed-load of chemicals over her head from time to time who knows what she might aspire to!

[auburntressed]

I think that when women go naturally gray, silver, white, whatever, that it's wonderful...

I saw a women the other day that was clearly in her 80s with jet black hair... Even if it didn't look extremely fake (which it did), it seemed quite a ridiculous attempt at appearing younger, because it provided no such illusion.

One of my grandmothers is past 80, and she keeps her hair dark brown to this day. She isn't attempting to look younger at all - at her age that would be a silly way to attempt such an illusion. She thinks that her skin tone clashes with pale hair. Since I have never in my life seen her with pale hair, I can't say.

[Bene]

Not once in that article does she say anyone has to do anything. Nor is she trying to tell anyone that they need to cover their greys. She's speaking about the clients who have already decided to dye their hair. They come knowing they don't want grey hair, she gives them what they want. Replace it with any other alteration. Teeth bleaching, botox, artificial nails, hair weaving, waxing, bleaching, yoga, singing lessons, etc. "This is the result you want, this is how I think the best way to go about it, everyone is happy"


I really do think people are reaching for something to be offended about.

[catamonica]

My hair is all grey, with some silver. The dye is slowly coming out. Silver hair is beautiful. If anyone wants to go to the salon, to have it dyed, that is their choice. Some of us do not like salons. And some of us can not afford to go. Especially four
to six weeks. She needs an attitude adjustment. I take care of my own hair!

[spidermom]

I really do think people are reaching for something to be offended about.

You don't have to reach far when she uses words like "horrible" to describe gray.

[Glenn]

Yes, and you bring up an excellent point about men! The author mentions mothers and mother's mothers....where are the fathers? Oh, that's right...it's OK for men to be silver.:rolleyes:

We don't spend money on our hair, necessarily. There are, however, plenty of commercials indicating we should not have gray beards (the first thing to go gray, usually), and plenty of product on the shelves for men with gray hair; it just has to be a simple product to use, or we normally won't use it. :)

I'm not arguing, because I believe that you are right, as women are targeted most frequently... okay, relentlessly, it seems.

[embee]

I thought the article was amusing. It made me laugh, it sounded so silly, a parody of something.

She appeared to be very manipulative of her customers, although perhaps she was only reflecting what her customers actually want... I don't know. She seemed happy (even eager) to reinforce whatever low self image her customers had: that they needed fixing to not be "horrid". I certainly understand her desire to have regular repeat customers, everyone wants that, and it's hard to criticize a business person's wish for business. But I'd personally prefer to have customers who felt good about themselves rather than ashamed and horrid.

Many people *love* going and having their hair done, enjoy the washing, the combing, the styling, the chatter, the company, the physical attention. I never liked it, always hated the whole experience.

Some kind soul (maybe her hairdresser?) finally talked my SIL out of having her hair dyed almost black - in her early 70s she finally went grey and it took 20 years off her apperance. ;)

[Tota]

I'm not noticing any silvers in my hair yet but even I'm offended by this article. Horrible gray hair? Make then come every 3-4 weeks? Omg if hairdressers really see their clients like the author of this article does then I never ever want to see a hairdresser again. All I could decipher was money, money, money, more money and money. What about making a client feel good about themselves without pouring chemicals over their brain so often? I think some comments from the reader were really good though.

[lapushka]

I don't think the article is offensive, really, just very short sighted and blunt, and coming from someone who's set in her ways. I see how that would come across wrong to many silver ladies.

[jeanniet]

I think it's great to support women who want to go gray naturally, but let's not make the assumption that women who choose to cover their gray must necessarily be uninformed, ashamed, afraid of aging, etc. Younger women can color their hair for all kinds of reasons, so I don't see why older women shouldn't be able to do the same thing. This thread is kind of sounding like women who color their grays are somehow poor creatures who need to be enlightened, and I think that's just not the case for most women.

[prettykitty]

The comments were great but the article was awful! I'm so glad I don't go to hairdressers anymore. My favorite comment was the one which suggested that a bunch of people would 'descend on her Facebook page like silver-haired Valkyries'.

[lapushka]

I think it's great to support women who want to go gray naturally, but let's not make the assumption that women who choose to cover their gray must necessarily be uninformed, ashamed, afraid of aging, etc. Younger women can color their hair for all kinds of reasons, so I don't see why older women shouldn't be able to do the same thing. This thread is kind of sounding like women who color their grays are somehow poor creatures who need to be enlightened, and I think that's just not the case for most women.

This. ^^ I think this is very much true!

[vindo]

Wow, its like she is talking about Guinea Pigs! :rolleyes:

Really DOES sound like she preys on women to manipulate them.

Btw. Rini, you look lovely! I love your silver with your youthful face :)

[Unicorn]

I'm with you, Dulce! You wont find me going anywhere near a hairdressers any more because they are in the business of making money and frankly, I haven't found one yet that actually cares for your hair and for what you want! One thing that always stikes me as funny, is how highlights are strongly recommended to brighten hair for many women and yet, silver hair is providing just that - Nature's highlights, without all the harmful (and expensive) chemicals! In my opinion, what doesn't look natural is when you see a head of dyed hair with obvious silver roots growing out in a block. Natural silvers look so much softer and beautiful. Can't wait until mine is totally silver!
The bolded is something that often strikes me as strange. For those that don't wish to allow the grey to grow in, a softer/lighter version of their natural colour (or a complementary colour, creating highlights/low lights would make far more sense to me. It would really soften that sharp demarcation, of new growth, for quite some years. Not so good for the hairdressers coffers, but definitely good for the client. Less processing on the hair and longer between visits and no solid 'block' of colour either at the roots or the overall hair. For many with short hair (LHC version of short) semi-permanents would work just as well as salon dye.


OMG! I really hit it off lucky! When my silver hairs became apparent in my early to mid-40s, I asked my stylist at the time if we should consider color for my gray hair. She told me that it wasn't gray, it was silvery blonde, and it was going to be stunning. "Don't touch it!" she advised me.

She was right; your hair colouring is amazing, the graduating colour really is so striking. I still halt at your posts to see it.

I really envy those that arrive at the all white stage. Both my Mother and Grandmother were only just about approaching the salt and pepper stage at 70. While I also like salt and pepper, all white is just beautiful.

As for the article, I can't say I'm offended, just jaded that this is in fact standard business practice, for all businesses these days. It all about the money, good service is now the in the minority.

Unicorn

[teela1978]

You don't have to reach far when she uses words like "horrible" to describe gray.

She used horrible to describe gray roots... which do often look horrible when peeking out under a bad dye job.

[MonaMayfair]

Here's a fun exercise (for those who are not quite "getting" the bad feeling this provokes amongst the silver girls): try substituting the word "gray" with "brunette". I have copied some of the sentences from the article below with that substitution:


"They have a consistent income, they want to cover their brunette and they need to look polished and professional constantly."
"When I have a client that is starting to get more brunette, I know that they will be making an investment in their appearance"
"This keeps the client on a schedule; they never have to worry about their brunette showing and your books will be full."
"They are the most reliable clients because they do not want to be caught with horrible brunette roots."


If I were a brunette I might get a bad impression from those words. I might think that:


I should be covering my brunette hair or I won't looked polished and professional.
As I get more brunette I should spend more money on fighting it.
Having brunette hair is something I should worry about.
My brunette hair is horrible.


Now I'm not saying that everybody would come to those conclusions. Indeed for myself, I did not think those things. I feel that having silver hair is a legitimate colour choice. I could easily dye it, but I CHOOSE to have silver hair. I actually like it. At my age, I am most definitely in the minority. I'm just sick of the assumption that older women are going to want to cover their silver hair.

MonaMayfair, you are quite correct that there is no rule to say that you have to like white hair. You don't have to like black, blue, pink, blonde, red or green hair either. I'm sorry you don't like white hair either...and yes, if you want to dye then go right ahead. BUT....I object to a general opinion that women with silver hair NEED to dye it. I'm fine with them wanting to, but not if it's out of some sense of conformity or obligation. Everybody should have a choice and not be made to feel that one hair colour is superior over another.

Is there any other hair colour that gets this sort of treatment? Of course not. I have yet to see an advertisement telling women to "wash that brunette right out of your hair". It's all about staying youthful and silver hair to the beauty industry is an indication of being old.

I do know how it is in "the system". I'm just tired of it, that's all :shake:

But people ARE prejudiced against other hair colors! Lots of people HATE red hair and make fun of it, there's a tremendous amount of anti "ginger" feeling in this country, and many people get badly bullied at school for having red hair.
And I think lots of people feel that one hair color is "superior" to another, because they see it as more desirable. I was often asked why I would use henna over natural blonde hair.
I've had natural blonde, temporary dyed brunette, and henna'd hair - the amount of attention I got when I went red plummeted dramatically. Some people do love it, but a lot of people think it's awful. Even I don't like it now, because I'm stuck with the henna until it grows out and the sight of it annoys me so much (I'm disguising it with temporary dyes, as I have 2 inches of blonde roots)

I just know that if I started going gray at my age, I'd certainly dye it. Even if I don't get it until I'm in my forties or fifties, I can't imagine I'd ever embrace it.
I don't like it on men either incidentally...

[Mesmerise]

She used horrible to describe gray roots... which do often look horrible when peeking out under a bad dye job.

Yes, this! She never actually said gray hair is horrible, just the roots... and the roots DO look horrible when you've got a very sharp demarcation.

When I had blonde foils in my hair I could go MUCH longer between touch ups because the blonde would mean there was far less difference between the gray and the blonde, making it not so obvious that I was graying. Now I henna I have to do it monthly or it looks dreadful. (Seriously I would go months and months and nobody would ever comment on my grays when I had the foils... really weird...it's like the blonde really DID disguise the hair enough that people just didn't see that I had a lot of gray hair). NOW, if I've got roots showing I get comments on my graying hair :rolleyes:.

The tradeoff is that my hair is soo much healthier with henna, whereas after I'd had the blonde foils for awhile I was getting split ends. Also, no way I can afford to have my hair done monthly by a professional ;).

Most business people have a "market" they target, which is generally a sensible marketing strategy. This hairdresser KNOWS there's a market for women in the 35+ age range whose hair is graying and who want to colour it. She's not saying EVERYONE should do this, she just knows that there ARE women who will and she markets to them.

[cmg]

Here's a fun exercise (for those who are not quite "getting" the bad feeling this provokes amongst the silver girls): try substituting

... your own hair color with a nice grey shade out of a box????

Just asking. If given the choice, what choice do you make? Getting grey or white is not a choice. Not really. So the next time you talk to your mothers or grandmothers (or grandfathers for that matter) - try walk a mile in their shoes first and thread lightly before you impose your own opinions - in either way.

This thread highlights why I dont go to a hairdresser for hair advice. I much rather go here! We dont earn money on each other here. We support and advice.


I think it's great to support women who want to go gray naturally, but let's not make the assumption that women who choose to cover their gray must necessarily be uninformed, ashamed, afraid of aging, etc. Younger women can color their hair for all kinds of reasons, so I don't see why older women shouldn't be able to do the same thing. This thread is kind of sounding like women who color their grays are somehow poor creatures who need to be enlightened, and I think that's just not the case for most women.
Exactly! I am not a victim or in need of defending. I am making a choice, independently of what virgin hair color I have at the time. It happens to be white today. I dont hate white or grey hair, I just hate the way the roots look. And I like henna. Some day I will keep my hair white, but I dont really think it works well with my skintone. *Sigh*


Media mashes our brains like potatoes until we think we need useless products to look pretty. Natural beauty, the natural colours of us are more suprizing.
Spot on!

And I am also a big fan of Rini's and spidermom's hair BTW. Georgeous!


Is there any other hair colour that gets this sort of treatment? Of course not.
Uhm, try being the only redhead in the school etc. I think the only people really able to relate to hair color discrimination, are redheads. Greys dont get bashed, exept perhaps in words. Now thats another topic entirely.

Stealing photos also is. I find lindyk's response very gracious ...
I have gotten photos and texts stolen myself, and it is not funny. I am constantly surprised about that people seem to believe that whats on the internet is everyones property.


Pfff... What an attitude! Anything to keep the clients, anything to fill the wallet, right? I understand that the clients know what they want but maybe, despite this, it would be useful to show them natural options?
And even if people want to cover they grays, I wouldn't be happy to know that there is a whole psychological project to keep me in the salon. Creepy.

Welcome to the planet of commerce. There is a whole world of psychological measurements taken in every shop you enter, and every place you go to. The milk and the bread and the diapers - everything placed in measured distances and researched optimum combinations of locations. Colours, patterns, materials and sounds, all designed to affect you in various ways. Your steps have been counted and led to another direction without you knowing it. You are too valuable, not to be manipulated as soon as you leave your home front door. Dont ever think you are not submitted or susceptible to it. We all are. From the diapers on to our old age.

Back to topic. I actually never think in terms of grey when I see some peoples hair. Mostly fair haired people. One of my best friends for example. She complains about her grey hair, whereas I think of her as blonde. I try hard not to be ignorant of her feelings, but she has really nice hair, and wont listen to other people. So I just tell her "Yeah there is a little grey over here, but its not so bad" (pointing at non-existant spot on her beautiful hair). That she can believe. Arent we funny sometimes :)

/ CMG

[henné]

I really don't see anything offensive about this article.

This is just a hairdresser giving other hairdressers a pretty good advice. It totally makes sense and I don't think that she's evil for having written it (as some of you seem to suggest).

I disliked the use of the word 'horrible' for the gray roots, and I didn't really get why the heck would she post a picture of that woman without obtaining a written permission to do so ... that is pretty darn bad.

--------------

I have the same respect for women that decide to stick to their naturally silver/gray/white hair as well as for women that choose to cover it.

I don't differentiate.

[henné]

To me, it's her sharing a marketing plan. Maybe sort of ruthless, but how is that bad?

Yes, stylists would be out a lot of money if we all just quit coloring and cutting. Having dependable, motivated clients with cash to spend is a good thing for anyone who needs to make a living. ;) :laugh:

^^ That!

Absolutely agree.

[SerinaDaith]

This is why I swore salons off three years ago. I didn't need to pay someone to rip me off month after month and tell me that I am unattractive.

[Sewas]

This stylist is just human and has definite ideas and thoughts about women and their hair....we all do. She also has set goals for making a good lucrative living for herself. Her biggest fault is being tactless and blunt when discussing her gray-haired clients who absolutely must have her haircoloring expertise.

[Linnet]

Linnet,I agree with you on the irony of highlights[salon vs natural silver]One is free ,the other a cash cow.How about the "long hair is unfashioneable" many of us are told,they cut the hair[cash] and later offer to sell you very expensive extensions[more cash-lots of it!]Guess I'm just sick of it all,the hypocrasy of the ways the beauty industry manipulates women ,makes us feel we're not good enough as we naturally are[no money in that] and we need them to fix us all for money of course.Like Rini says she's tired of it and so am I.We can't change the system and there are ladies that feel their hairdresser is a lifesaver ,keeping them forever young or polished and professional through chemicals so hairdressers like this are needed for that demographic.Just sad ,she gives me the feel she doesn't respect or even care much for her older clients that worry about those expensive gray roots.But to each his own.Am just glad I escaped from all this madness.

I'm glad I escaped too, Dulce! Each to his/her own I suppose, but wouldn't it be great if hairdressers could take a more natural approach to hair care; improve on what you have, rather than ruin it with chemicals. There are so many good products out there. Ah well, c'est la vie!

[Arden]

I find it enormously offensive. Yes, there is a large market for women who dont want gray hair. There is also a large market for natural brunets that want to be blonds. This artical singels out "gray"...I dyed my hair from the time I was 12 years old. I got my first gray at 21. The gray didnt bother me... being 21 with a gray hair kind of did.. but women with gray hair are just as beautiful as anyone else. I about a year ago to stop dying my hair. I have salt and pepper all threw my naturally dark brown locks to it's very striking.. I like it. BUT you would be appauled by the way I get treated for it.

When I first made the decision to let my hair go au natural I really didnt think much about it. It was my hair and my desision. Who was it hurting? ...Well I made the annoucement to my then "best friend" and was immediatly throw into an argument. The last comment from her being, "you're doing this just to -*!$$- me off arnt you?" .....we've not not spoken in almost 9 months....

You could say, well that's just her. I get comments all the time from random people. They range from, "You're too young to have that hair" to "You are so brave" (and no it wasn't a compliment) ....Everytime I go to get a trim I am accosted by the hair dresser to get that "taken care of" ...."oh you'll change your mind" ...No, I wont...

See the reason it's offenvice is because women are made to feel that if they don't dye thier is somthing wrong with them. That they're unattractive, have no sense of style or are some kind of trash. It offends me on the deepest kind of level. Gray hair is natural and beautiful. And if there was ever a time where I might have considered going back to dye, after the way I've been treated over the last year, it'll be a cold day in... you know... before I do.

[racrane]

I got grumpy reading this, too. But I don't think she meant to be offensive, she was just a little too blunt. Anyway, I'm young but I think silver hair is awesome. And the attitude that women MUST look youthful and they *have* to color and keep an expensive haircut is always upsetting to me. I"m glad women here buck the trend. :)

[MsBubbles]

I didn't have a reaction specifically about the greys, but I can see how it'd upset those who are embracing their natural grey hair. However, the whole thing reminded me of why I run a mile for any kind of female image consultant. One size or style does NOT fit all. Stop blanketing us. We don't all want to be bleach blonde, purple rinsed, soccer-mom'ed, high-heeled, veiny-leg-free...etc etc. Good grief. Vive la difference for crying out loud and leave us alone.

[jeanniet]

See the reason it's offenvice is because women are made to feel that if they don't dye thier is somthing wrong with them.

I didn't get that at all; it's really talking about women who already dye and want to maintain that look. And really, there are a lot of posts in this thread that seem to say that women who want to cover their grays have something wrong with them, and I think that's equally bad.

[Mesmerise]

I find it enormously offensive. Yes, there is a large market for women who dont want gray hair. There is also a large market for natural brunets that want to be blonds. This artical singels out "gray"...I dyed my hair from the time I was 12 years old. I got my first gray at 21. The gray didnt bother me... being 21 with a gray hair kind of did.. but women with gray hair are just as beautiful as anyone else. I about a year ago to stop dying my hair. I have salt and pepper all threw my naturally dark brown locks to it's very striking.. I like it. BUT you would be appauled by the way I get treated for it.

When I first made the decision to let my hair go au natural I really didnt think much about it. It was my hair and my desision. Who was it hurting? ...Well I made the annoucement to my then "best friend" and was immediatly throw into an argument. The last comment from her being, "you're doing this just to -*!$$- me off arnt you?" .....we've not not spoken in almost 9 months....

You could say, well that's just her. I get comments all the time from random people. They range from, "You're too young to have that hair" to "You are so brave" (and no it wasn't a compliment) ....Everytime I go to get a trim I am accosted by the hair dresser to get that "taken care of" ...."oh you'll change your mind" ...No, I wont...

See the reason it's offenvice is because women are made to feel that if they don't dye thier is somthing wrong with them. That they're unattractive, have no sense of style or are some kind of trash. It offends me on the deepest kind of level. Gray hair is natural and beautiful. And if there was ever a time where I might have considered going back to dye, after the way I've been treated over the last year, it'll be a cold day in... you know... before I do.

Hmm well looking at it from your perspective, I can kind of understand why you found the article offensive, because you've had such a horrible reaction to letting your hair go natural! I can't believe your best friend was so horrible to you about it. I'm actually trying to get my best friend to go natural, because she dyes her hair herself with a very dark colour (dark brown, even black, sometimes burgundy) and she is virtually 100% gray... the regrowth is really obvious and she really hates it too. I've suggested that unless she wants to go blonde, she'll ALWAYS have bad regrowth, and she'd look better embracing her true colour!

(It sounds a bit hypocritical as I'm not ready to go gray, but she's some years older than me and she has a great deal more gray than I have. When I get to that point, I will just start over, because I think my hair will look rather silly...). It would NEVER occur to me to criticise someone for going natural!!


I didn't have a reaction specifically about the greys, but I can see how it'd upset those who are embracing their natural grey hair. However, the whole thing reminded me of why I run a mile for any kind of female image consultant. One size or style does NOT fit all. Stop blanketing us. We don't all want to be bleach blonde, purple rinsed, soccer-mom'ed, high-heeled, veiny-leg-free...etc etc. Good grief. Vive la difference for crying out loud and leave us alone.

Yeah, this too. I didn't really find it offensive... I colour my own grays, so I understand the desire to do so. BUT I also agree that it's something that a person has to decide for themselves, as we are all our own people with our own styles.

[Arden]

I didn't get that at all; it's really talking about women who already dye and want to maintain that look. And really, there are a lot of posts in this thread that seem to say that women who want to cover their grays have something wrong with them, and I think that's equally bad.

Well I was really making that particular statment about general additudes people have... not just that womans artical persay... I just feel like her artical is a blaring symptom of the problem at hand...

I think my feelings can be summed up with this quote I once read...



"My hair doesnt need to be "fixed", Society's narrow minded view of beauty is what's broken"

[Arden]

Hmm well looking at it from your perspective, I can kind of understand why you found the article offensive, because you've had such a horrible reaction to letting your hair go natural! I can't believe your best friend was so horrible to you about it. I'm actually trying to get my best friend to go natural, because she dyes her hair herself with a very dark colour (dark brown, even black, sometimes burgundy) and she is virtually 100% gray... the regrowth is really obvious and she really hates it too. I've suggested that unless she wants to go blonde, she'll ALWAYS have bad regrowth, and she'd look better embracing her true colour!

(It sounds a bit hypocritical as I'm not ready to go gray, but she's some years older than me and she has a great deal more gray than I have. When I get to that point, I will just start over, because I think my hair will look rather silly...). It would NEVER occur to me to criticise someone for going natural!!



Yeah, this too. I didn't really find it offensive... I colour my own grays, so I understand the desire to do so. BUT I also agree that it's something that a person has to decide for themselves, as we are all our own people with our own styles.

Well part of the reason I guess I get so many "reactions" has to do with my age.. I'm only 31....

and in part I think my friend's reation had alot to do with the fact that she's younger than me... I should have half exspected her reaction.. we where setting side by side at the hair salon one day getting our hair done and I offhandedly said I was going to stop dying my hair and she blurtted out something along the lines of "only if you never want to be seen with me in public again" and laughed... She hounestly didnt think I was serious... and then when I made the desision to stop dying she just flipped out....

I"m in no means critical of people who want to dye thier hair... I did it more than half my life.... For me it was just a choice and I have no plans on going back.....

[jeanniet]

Well I was really making that particular statment about general additudes people have... not just that womans artical persay... I just feel like her artical is a blaring symptom of the problem at hand...

I think my feelings can be summed up with this quote I once read...



"My hair doesnt need to be "fixed", Society's narrow minded view of beauty is what's broken"
I understand your point. I just don't feel it's fair to dump our annoyance at society's attitudes on her, because she's only catering to her clients. Marketing exists to convince us to buy things we don't need, even if we have to go into debt to do it. Hair is just the tip of the iceberg.

Women who've gone gray naturally aren't a big deal here, so maybe it's also geographical.

[jeanniet]

Well part of the reason I guess I get so many "reactions" has to do with my age.. I'm only 31....

and in part I think my friend's reation had alot to do with the fact that she's younger than me... I should have half exspected her reaction.. we where setting side by side at the hair salon one day getting our hair done and I offhandedly said I was going to stop dying my hair and she blurtted out something along the lines of "only if you never want to be seen with me in public again" and laughed... She hounestly didnt think I was serious... and then when I made the desision to stop dying she just flipped out....

I"m in no means critical of people who want to dye thier hair... I did it more than half my life.... For me it was just a choice and I have no plans on going back.....

I don't think your "friend" is much of a friend!

[justgreen]

Wow I'm so far outside the norm it's weird. LOL I have silver highlights put IN my hair to match the sparse silvers of my own. Seriously, if I had more natural silver I wouldn't get the highlights. BUT I do enjoy my salon time with my stylist. She takes very good care of me (hair, toes, face) and she told me today that she loves it when I come in, she says I 'calm' her. If she's not feeling well, or having drama in her life, I seem to have a good effect on her. Well, I told her ditto because she does that for me.

[Arden]

I don't think your "friend" is much of a friend!

I agree. Like I said previously, I havent talked to her now in about 9 months

[christine1989]

The way the article was written was pretty tactless. They have a point that greys often do equate to repeated business however their writing voice was a bit abrasive. I don't really find it offensive and they are correct in a lot of what they say I just think they could have voiced it in a way that is more polite and less blunt.

[cmg]

...Well I made the annoucement to my then "best friend" and was immediatly throw into an argument. The last comment from her being, "you're doing this just to -*!$$- me off arnt you?" .....we've not not spoken in almost 9 months....

OMG You need new friends.


Women who've gone gray naturally aren't a big deal here, so maybe it's also geographical.
Yes! No that you mention it, I have noticed a definite difference in attitude in different places where I have lived.

@justgreen: I wish I had silvers. Being a former natural redhead I didnt get any greys or silvers. It got something, uhm, spotted dirty sandbeige or something (and it clashed grocely to my skin tone). But I think it is pretty much 100% white now. My future plan involves to have white, long hair, like my grandmother. She was so very beautiful in her white hair. I think we need more role models for greys and whites. And youre not weird at all. I have often suggested grey and silver as highlighting for "transitioning" hair, when people come to me for advice. It can be very beautiful if done well.

/ CMG