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View Full Version : sulphate- and cone free haircare



CSallaround
May 28th, 2012, 04:41 AM
Hi everyone

I was thinking of asking my questions on one of the existing threads about cones but I decided to start a whole new thread so we can collect some advice and tricks on sulphate- and cone-free haircare. :)

I have been switching between using cones and no cones for several months now. My hair seems to be fine without cones but once in a while I start missing the slip I get from cones - especially when my hair has a lot of tangles.
Right now I switch between using an SLS shampoo without silicone and shampoo without sulphates as well.

I want to stop using shampoo's containing sulphates - except for the occasional clarifying but I'm unsure about wether I can still use cones though only clarifying once in a while.
1. Do you use cones and if yes - how often do you use a sulphate shampoo?
2. Are there any conefree products out there that help protect your hair from the sun? I don't always wear scarfs or hats in the sun, because I prefer the way I look without.

Feel free to share any tips on cone/sulphate free hair care routines.

EDIT
Do anyone experience that oil etc doesn't absorb as good when a silicone product has been used first??
Is it true that cones can block or reduce the amount of moisture absorbed by the hair? I read somewhere here on LHC that some coatings can do this but I wasn't sure if that included cones. Anyone know what ingredients can coat the hair like this?
I want to continue using cones but if the goodies I baby my hair with doesn't absorb well when I use cones I'll go conefree again

spookyghost
May 28th, 2012, 04:48 AM
Im trying to figure this out also so I will be watching this thread!

ptricia
May 28th, 2012, 05:51 AM
Coconut oil protects your hair from sun damage. Women in Thailand and Indonesia use coconut oil to protect their hair, it also helps to untangle the hair.

LadyCelestina
May 28th, 2012, 06:36 AM
1. I shampoo once a week and co-wash with a light non-coney CO daily.
I think it's a pity many people seem to think that you need to soak your hair in a dish detergent or what to remove cones.In facts,I use a very mild shampoo with coco betaine and have had absolutely no issues with build up.

2.
As far as I know,henna offers some protection against sun.
I'm sure you can find some cone-free products with UV filters in your local drugstore,just read the labels :).
I use an european brand called Balea,it contains a water soluble cone,so I guess that would fit in as being practically cone free.

Annibelle
May 28th, 2012, 06:49 AM
I would think that coconut oil would actually hurt the hair in the sun? I'm not sure about that, though... but I know people put it on their skin if they want to get tan.

swearnsue
May 28th, 2012, 08:32 AM
I really like my hair after going sulfate free. Getting away from coney conditioner is proving more difficult. I'm cone free for about a month now and I still get static. But right now what is working pretty good is to add a tad of coconut oil to my shampoo and then instead of any conditioner at all, put some baby oil on the damp ends. But little things can throw off the delicate balance such as if I pre oil, or add too much baby oil or if the air is extra dry that day, below 10% humidity. I don't mind experimenting but at some point I would like to reach the results of finding the right combo and repeat it several times in a row!

CSallaround
May 28th, 2012, 01:19 PM
Coconut oil protects your hair from sun damage. Women in Thailand and Indonesia use coconut oil to protect their hair, it also helps to untangle the hair.

Interesting. It wouldn't fry the hair since it's oil?

cmg
May 28th, 2012, 02:55 PM
I use an european brand called Balea,it contains a water soluble cone,so I guess that would fit in as being practically cone free.
There is no such thing, I'm afraid. There are water-dispersible ones, which isnt the same thing. They stay in the water solution as long as it stays in the bottle, but as soon as they land on your hair and it dries, they will deposit on your hair like any other cone does. That is their function. Next time you use water they will not act truly water-soluble, this is a misunderstanding.

Sooner or later all cones will dissapear from the hair even without using sulphates, though this takes some time, wear and tear, rubbing and UV-light and so on. There are several factors to this.

/ CMG

LadyTheta
May 28th, 2012, 04:21 PM
Coconut oil protects your hair from sun damage. Women in Thailand and Indonesia use coconut oil to protect their hair, it also helps to untangle the hair.

Question for clarification, please:
Interesting that you mention this.
My hair can easily become sun damaged.
I recall being in Thailand some decades ago and was directed to use "roasted coconut oil" to prevent sunburn of my skin.

LadyTheta
May 28th, 2012, 04:22 PM
Oops! The question is: Do you know if the plain, pure coconut oil prevents sunburn of hair? --- or would this be the otherwise "roasted" oil which I was given?

LadyCelestina
May 29th, 2012, 06:58 AM
There is no such thing, I'm afraid. There are water-dispersible ones, which isnt the same thing. They stay in the water solution as long as it stays in the bottle, but as soon as they land on your hair and it dries, they will deposit on your hair like any other cone does. That is their function. Next time you use water they will not act truly water-soluble, this is a misunderstanding.

Sooner or later all cones will dissapear from the hair even without using sulphates, though this takes some time, wear and tear, rubbing and UV-light and so on. There are several factors to this.

/ CMG

Seriously?
I'm not quite sure, but there's still a lot of confusion going on with cones,so I might be wrong.
I googled "water-soluble cones" and it gives some results,clearly marking certain ingredients as soluble.:confused:


It could be those "water-soluble" cones I found are,actually,doing what you are describing,though.I don't know.
Could you link me some article about it? ;)

CSallaround
May 29th, 2012, 10:19 AM
I really like my hair after going sulfate free. Getting away from coney conditioner is proving more difficult. I'm cone free for about a month now and I still get static. But right now what is working pretty good is to add a tad of coconut oil to my shampoo and then instead of any conditioner at all, put some baby oil on the damp ends. But little things can throw off the delicate balance such as if I pre oil, or add too much baby oil or if the air is extra dry that day, below 10% humidity. I don't mind experimenting but at some point I would like to reach the results of finding the right combo and repeat it several times in a row!

How much coconut oil do you mix with the shampoo? And do you do it in your hand before shampooing or do you mix it in a bottle or bowl or something? :)
I've tried it a few times but found that my hair got greasy a little faster. Maybe I just need to experiment more.

I know how you feel. It would be great to have THE routine that just works every time.

swearnsue
May 29th, 2012, 11:28 AM
CSallaround, I mix about 1/8 tsp coconut oil into 2 tsp shampoo into a little plastic cup and add about 1/4 cup warm water and mix it up. This gives me enough to shampoo through twice. I use a gentle shampoo so I need to shampoo rinse repeat. I think the trick is to look at the coconut oil, think about how much you think you need and then use half of that! You might notice that your hair will feel heavier somehow, or more substantial as if your hair has actually soaked up the coconut oil. My advice would be to try again but use a tiny bit in your shampoo.

cmg
May 29th, 2012, 06:22 PM
It could be those "water-soluble" cones I found are,actually,doing what you are describing,though.I don't know.
Could you link me some article about it? ;)
You might try searching her eon LHC, I'm pretty sure this has been discussed here not very long ago. But if you would give me a name of a particular cone you are interested in, I might be able to find some more info. I think Amodimeticone is one of the cones often wrongly believed to be water soluble, which is not correct. Water-dispersible is the correct cemical term. Dispersible silicones have many uses, for example in different hair-products like shampoo, conditioners, hairsprays, for coating fabrics or in detergents as a non-foaming agents etc. Silicones and silicone-waxes can be modified (so they wont be non-polar, which renders them insoluble in water) and in certain combinations with other substances they act as dispersible as long as they are in the solution. Byt they harden as they dry on the hair. Some researchers say that the residue effect is negligeble, if certain surfactants are used in the shampoo. This seems to work for most people, but less well for fine-haired people, according to reports.
Here is some reading that mentions Amodimeticone and its function in hair products:
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-what-is-cetrimonium-chloride

A fine-haired person can experience effects of residue of all sorts of things, including these cones and even from ACV. I dont have to clarify as often with Amodimeticone as with other cones though.

I think this describes the function of these modified and water-dispersible cones very well:

Quote from naturally curly.com:
"Once the actual product is applied to wet hair in the shower, the aggregate is broken up and each component does what it would ordinarily do. The nonionic surfactant is washed away when the hair is rinsed; the positively-charged amodimethicone and the cationic surfactant are each deposited (separately) onto the surface of the hair. The amodimethicone is left alone, and is thus in its water insoluble state, and it dries to form a film, which imparts sheen and silkiness to the hair."

/ CMG

HintOfMint
May 29th, 2012, 07:13 PM
I believe PEG modified cones are water soluble.

Hollyfire3
May 29th, 2012, 08:46 PM
We need Ktani to help us with all the cone stuff...wish she were here!!!:(

CSallaround
May 30th, 2012, 04:12 AM
You might try searching her eon LHC, I'm pretty sure this has been discussed here not very long ago. But if you would give me a name of a particular cone you are interested in, I might be able to find some more info. I think Amodimeticone is one of the cones often wrongly believed to be water soluble, which is not correct. Water-dispersible is the correct cemical term. Dispersible silicones have many uses, for example in different hair-products like shampoo, conditioners, hairsprays, for coating fabrics or in detergents as a non-foaming agents etc. Silicones and silicone-waxes can be modified (so they wont be non-polar, which renders them insoluble in water) and in certain combinations with other substances they act as dispersible as long as they are in the solution. Byt they harden as they dry on the hair. Some researchers say that the residue effect is negligeble, if certain surfactants are used in the shampoo. This seems to work for most people, but less well for fine-haired people, according to reports.
Here is some reading that mentions Amodimeticone and its function in hair products:
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-what-is-cetrimonium-chloride

A fine-haired person can experience effects of residue of all sorts of things, including these cones and even from ACV. I dont have to clarify as often with Amodimeticone as with other cones though.

I think this describes the function of these modified and water-dispersible cones very well:

Quote from naturally curly.com:
"Once the actual product is applied to wet hair in the shower, the aggregate is broken up and each component does what it would ordinarily do. The nonionic surfactant is washed away when the hair is rinsed; the positively-charged amodimethicone and the cationic surfactant are each deposited (separately) onto the surface of the hair. The amodimethicone is left alone, and is thus in its water insoluble state, and it dries to form a film, which imparts sheen and silkiness to the hair."

/ CMG

Thank you for the ínformation. I had no idea about this. Do you know the names of any water dispersible cones?

Tisiloves
May 30th, 2012, 04:27 AM
Oops! The question is: Do you know if the plain, pure coconut oil prevents sunburn of hair? --- or would this be the otherwise "roasted" oil which I was given?

I think it's pure or roasted. There are several oils that have a slight SPF:

http://www.ehow.com/list_7557101_natural-oils-contain-spf.html

LadyCelestina
May 30th, 2012, 08:20 AM
You might try searching her eon LHC, I'm pretty sure this has been ...

/ CMG


Yes,I know amodimethicone isn't water soluble,nor bis-aminopropyl dimethicone,nor any other amine-functionalized silicone.
I get a lot of info about cones from naturally curly too ;)
So,to add to the confusion:

http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/whats-the-scoop-on-silicones


It is difficult to actually rank the silicones in order of water solubility, simply because they are usually either soluble or not. Most silicones are water insoluble due to being non-polar, but there are a few that are chemically modified in order to render them more compatible with water
The article later marks certain formulations as soluble.


Am I being stupid or what for still not really getting you on cones not being soluble? (See,it's quite possible I just don't exactly understand what you are trying to tell me.I'm not being catty.)

cmg
May 30th, 2012, 08:47 AM
Thank you for the ínformation. I had no idea about this. Do you know the names of any water dispersible cones?

They can be found in any coney conditioner or shampoo. I suppose all of the cones (waxes, gums etc.) used in hairproducts are made dispersible in water-solution one way or another.

They can have the feel and viscosity near water, which can perhaps be misinterpreted as them being water-soluble, but they are often water-repellant instead. The water-insolubility can actually be desired, like in a rinse-off conditioner fex, where you dont wish the product to slip away all together but to stay on the hair.

The copolyols or silicone glycol polymers have very low Van der Waal's bond strength, wich renders them almost a water solubility, but they arent really in the cemical sense. Some are not so good in rinse-offs because of this (they slide off) and are used in other things instead. There is an enormous industry in developing and patenting in this field, making the molecules big or small etc. Like for instance thru PEG-modification or clever combinations. Solubility and application for big moelcule weight silicones can be enhanced by formulations with quaternary ammonium compounds functioning as bridging agent in hair. Those stick more to the hair instead.

And all these differ in how much residue they leave and how strong clarification is needed to get them out. If you use brand XY as a conditioner, the shampoo of the same brand XY is usually correspondingly designed to clarify it (and the shampoo may contain additional cones as well). So that way they keep you using their brand in a circle.

If you want to find "nicer" cones there are lots of listings online. I personally find Amodimeticone and Behentrimoniumchloride (and their variations) are not so "bad" as some other stuff. Behentrimoniumchloride and Dimethicone are often recommended against hair breakage. The first I dont have much trouble with, the latter quickly makes noticeable residue on my hair. Other peoples experience may differ.

I learnt to tell if a product was "good or bad" for me from LHC i think: Someone here suggested you could write down the first 5-6 ingredients in the products you are using. Those are the most important and active ones. After a while you are able to tell alot about which ingredients work for you and which dont. I really learnt alot from doing this. Theory is good (I'm a chemist) but practice is better :)

Here is an article about build-up and clarifying:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=194
Here is a little something Ktani wrote about clarifying:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=224
This article can be used as a base for further research of your own:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=185

She quotes Dow Corning fex. There is more written online to find from them that can be interesting for us hair people. Where did Ktani go by the way? She is a great resource here on LHC. I noticed she is no longer listed as a member here. :(

/ CMG

cmg
May 30th, 2012, 09:04 AM
The article later marks certain formulations as soluble.

Am I being stupid or what for still not really getting you on cones not being soluble? (See,it's quite possible I just don't exactly understand what you are trying to tell me.I'm not being catty.)
No problem at all :) I think it may be just laymans way of missing the distinction here. Another example: Milk is not a water-solution either, even though it is wet and contains water. Dissolve (!) cocoa in it and it is still not water-soluble in the product milk (it is a suspension, you cannot "dissolve" it). Someone writes something and then it keeps getting quoted again and again over the internet. Usually I dont bother to rectify stuff like this either. And even scientists say it or write it down the wrong way too sometimes. But if the cones were completely soluble they would rinse off and loose their function like I said above. They need to be bonding to something else that acts as a transporting agent, not to the water.

/ CMG

cmg
May 30th, 2012, 09:16 AM
Perhaps this can make it clearer:

A solution i characterized by the fact that the dissolved substance (solute) does not exist as a solid. In other words the silicones we are talking about here would have to dissolve into other substances and then be brought to chemically revert back into silicones again, in order to do their function as a hair coating agent. This is not the case. Nothing like this happens in the hair products or during their usage. The silicone molecules are intact in all stages of their operation - in the product as well as on the hair.

I hope this explanation is not "to easy" so that it is almost wrong :D Happens sometimes :o

/ CMG

Vampyria
May 30th, 2012, 10:00 AM
I don't use silicons. I use shampoo without cones which has sodium coco sulphate, but I find it gentle and it's natural. After that I apply coconut oil, as a leave-in to tone down the frizz and to add moisture.

Sesame, walnut oil and shea butter all have natural SPF. I used sesame oil and it didn't fry my hair or anything like that.

LadyCelestina
June 1st, 2012, 02:15 PM
Perhaps this can make it clearer:


/ CMG

Got it! Thank you!
Let's just say it was a term mishap :D

BTW : You made me crave hot cocoa :eyebrows:.

cmg
June 2nd, 2012, 11:13 AM
BTW : You made me crave hot cocoa :eyebrows:.
Sorry about that! :D Here's a cinnamon bun for you in case you cave in to the cocoa: . @

CSallaround
June 11th, 2012, 04:43 AM
do anyone experience that oil etc doesn't absorb as good when a silicone product has been used first??
I want to continue using cones but if the goodies i baby my hair with doesn't absorb well when I use cones I'll go conefree again

CSallaround
June 11th, 2012, 11:00 AM
My hair gets greasy much faster when I use silicones so I wonder if it's true it blocks out the moisture

cmg
June 11th, 2012, 12:52 PM
Its true. You are tecnically waterproofing your hair and making it look slick because the surface becomes more even. The hair itself is coated though, and is not in better condition underneath. Its just the surface that looks good.

Silicones, paraffines, waxes, mineral oils etc. They all stay o top and prohibit other stuff to enter the hair shaft. They have to be removed to make it possible for moisture treatments to do their good work.

/ CMG

CSallaround
June 11th, 2012, 02:29 PM
Its true. You are tecnically waterproofing your hair and making it look slick because the surface becomes more even. The hair itself is coated though, and is not in better condition underneath. Its just the surface that looks good.

Silicones, paraffines, waxes, mineral oils etc. They all stay o top and prohibit other stuff to enter the hair shaft. They have to be removed to make it possible for moisture treatments to do their good work.

/ CMG

Thank you :)

I don't know if I misinterpreted but according to ktani mineral oil doesn't block out moisture like other coatings though it still protects the hair. Do you know anything about this?

cmg
June 11th, 2012, 04:15 PM
Perhaps it will not build up a very thick film in practical use, but it does coat the hair or skin. Think about lip care sticks and how that works out. Some hair products have parrafinum liquidum etc. in them instead of silicones for this reason.

There was a test somewhere with several oils in comparison ... I'll see if I can find it again.

/ CMG