My Hair is Officially Thin (And HAIR MATH!)

[holothuroidea]

I've been avoiding the main forum in an attempt to ignore my hair. Well last night I couldn't help myself and started playing with it I was surprised to find that I could fit it into two ponytails (yay at small milestone!)

Since my thickness stat was estimated from my memory of when my hair used to be long over 3 years ago, I thought it would be fun to figure out my pony tail circumference.

So I did some math to figure out from my two pony tails what the circumference of one would be. I used the circumference of each to calculate the radius of the two circles, and used that to calculate the areas. Then I added the areas together and then solved for the radius again to calculate the circumference of the one circle.

I'm pretty bad at describing math in words LOL. You get down to a simple formula that the circumference of the combined areas is equal to the square root of the square of the first plus the square of the second. Which I'm sure is a formula that has been around forever but I was too stupid to look up. :laugh:

c= (c1^2 + c2^2)^1/2

Anyway, my pony tail circumference came out to 5cm (Just under 2inches). So I am solidly a i.

I can't say I'm surprised, but I am a bit dissappointed. I was hoping that maybe my hair wasn't as thin as I remembered it, or that the damage thinned it out and it would be thicker now that I'm taking proper care of it. Apparently that's not the case, I just have wispy thin hair.

So now I'm on a mission to learn to appreciate my newly confirmed thinness. :)

ETA: It is very possible my math is wrong. I haven't done any algebra in 4 years so I'm a bit rusty. I had DH confirm everything I did, but he was kind of looking at me like I had two heads for even trying to do "hair math" in the first place. :D

[amanda_the_tall]

i have i hair too! :) the good thing is, it doesn't take too long to dry/comb. that much i appreciate.

[Aeltt]

And thick hair is a pain when it's hot outside.
It takes hours to dry.
More hair = more tangles.
You have to use way more conditioner (and oils, and whatever you put on your hair)
You have to have much longer hair than fine haired to do most of the buns.
Buns don't stay in place.
You can't use fragile/cheap hair toys because they break.
They're often too heavy and you have to redo them to distribute the weight evenly.
Braids eats up all of the length.
...

Shortly put : every type of hair has its down sides, just focus on the good points :)

[Tabihito]

While thin hair can look rather sad and pathetic in braids, you can also manage some amazing buns that would be impractical or impossible for thick hair at the same lengths. Thin hair is also, in most cases, fine, and therefore tends to be quite shiny. If you're thin and wavy, you don't get triangle-head nearly as bad as thicker hair does.

[torrilin]

Mmm... this is one of those yes and no things. If you're off 1/4" in measuring your pigtails, that can swing the math rather a lot :). And it's easy for short hair to try to escape from pigtails, or for it to be impossible to get all your hair gathered up. Basically, there's plenty of possible sources of error, and thickness is mostly relevant for figuring out updos to try anyway.

Anyway, if you're coming up with a number between 1.5" and 2.5", I'd type as a i/ii for now rather than a straight i. i and i/ii both have a strong advantage in how fast they can do particular updos... it's often 6-12" faster than a plain ii would be able to, and sometimes more like 24" sooner than a iii. Variety is pretty awesome :D.

But I would not be at all surprised either if it turns out that you're a plain ii when your hair is long enough for a ponytail.

[MsBubbles]

Well that's a good starting point, but I don't think you'll really, really know for sure til all your layers are able to fit into a ponytail.

I have been thinking about hair thinness, especially among fine-haireds. I think the ponytail circ is really only a part of it. I think head shapes, hairlines at the nape, and distribution of hair-growth (fuller on the sides? back? Front?) all have a lot to do with how someone's hair hangs.

It's possible people type their hair wrong here, but I have seen so many photos of 1a or 1b/F/i that look gorgeous, and not as sparse or thin as a (i) would scare most of us into believing! I hope that makes sense.

[holothuroidea]

Thank you, everyone. :flower:

I do think I we were fairly accurate in the measurements. It is close to the i/ii line but I would rather acknowledge that it is measuring as i now, and then be pleasantly surprised later if it moves into the ii category than label it as i/ii now in the (presumably false) hope that it is closer to ii than I measured.

There are a lot of lovely i hairs around here, and they are very inspiring. I think it's time to acknowledge that my hair is thin and get over all of these hair-confidence issues I have surrounding its thinness.

[Valfreyja]

I used to think that my hair was i at your length, based on previous records and because it hadn't grown all out. Thin hair is lovely and etherial, but even so, I wouldn't count my chickens until they're hatched.

[terylenerose]

All I have to say is that I've seen a lot of pictures of "i" hair on here that look a lot more like ii or ii/iii, and yours are some of them, holothuroidea. If you had yourself down as ii I would believe you. Not that I'm saying you should do that, but just that your hair really doesn't look thin.
And someone else is right, thin hair takes a lot less time to dry. Sometimes I wish I had it just for that. Being on the high end of ii means that you can't get away with putting up your hair when it's 90% dry and having it get 100% dry.

[GlennaGirl]

My hair is a 1 when it's neck-length and just a bit over the ii threshold when it's longer. I have no idea why but I do know that's accurate. I don't know the science or biology behind that.

However...I do have thin hair and I think thin hair can be beautiful. Silky. Elven.

[torrilin]

Thank you, everyone. :flower:

I do think I we were fairly accurate in the measurements. It is close to the i/ii line but I would rather acknowledge that it is measuring as i now, and then be pleasantly surprised later if it moves into the ii category than label it as i/ii now in the (presumably false) hope that it is closer to ii than I measured.

There are a lot of lovely i hairs around here, and they are very inspiring. I think it's time to acknowledge that my hair is thin and get over all of these hair-confidence issues I have surrounding its thinness.

*hugs*

It's not a false hope thing, it's an accuracy thing. If you use the simple system, i means 2" or less. If you use i/ii, i means 1.5" or less, and i/ii means 1.5-2.5", and ii means 2.5"-3.5". It sounds like you're really hoping to stuff your hair into updos asap, so i really would be better. If you're a i/ii, it'll take longer til you can do updos. And if you're actually a ii... longer yet.

And yeah, it's totally valid that you *feel* like your hair is super thin. We feel all kinds of things that aren't necessarily true in any objective sense. It doesn't mean you're wrong or stupid. It means you're human :).

Both my sister and sister-outlaw are solid iii's so if I compare myself to them, I feel like my hair is stupidly thin. But it's really not. I'm a middle of the road ii. And unlike them, my hair grows like a weed :D. It's also fairly straight, and my sister-outlaw was brought up to think straight hair was the holy grail of hair, so she loves admiring it. Doesn't hurt my ego at all. Plus if I had her 3a hair on my head, I wouldn't actually get to see how pretty the curls are... so I do try tho focus on the positive.

[lapushka]

holothuroidea, FWIW I don't think your hair looks i or thin at all. Considering your sig picture, I would put you in the ii range even.

[jojo]

To be honest id wait until you are past shoulder and re-measure, at your length its difficult to determine your proper thickness. Over the next year or so, you will see many changes in both texture and thickness due to treating it well.

Just continue to baby that hair, yes it may be always on the thinner side but it can still be beautiful. My hair when i joined was 3.? thick, check my photos its now an inch thicker and this is down to treating it kindly, my hair has never been thick, ever plus its fine too like yours in fact all my life ive been told id look awful with long hair. I may not have the nicest hair on here but ever strand has been cultivated with TLC :) your hair will look gorgeous long, just keep up the good work!

ETA- just measured mine and its a solid 4 at the nape but a 3" from BSL so im too a fine thiny, i still love it!

[trillian]

Yay for hair math!

[holothuroidea]

I'm having a hard time understanding why I would get more hairs on my head when it is longer. :confused:

All of my hair fit into these pony tails, I am 100% sure. They were not pig tails, I put one at the nape of my neck, then I pulled loose all of the hairs that didn't fit and put that in a pony on top of my head. I double checked to make sure all the hairs were secure. DH measured them with a tape measure. He's a chemist so I will say that he's pretty trustworthy as far as measuring stuff goes. Our tape measure is accurate to the nearest .2 cm. Seriously you guys have no idea how much of a nerd I am. :laugh:

I wouldn't be making announcements if I wasn't 100% sure. :)

[Knotted]

As others have mentioned, there are some positives to having thin hair! I could do figure-8 buns when my hair was between APL and BSL (now it's almost BSL). There's a pic in my album if you want to see it.

[Silverbrumby]

I'm having a hard time understanding why I would get more hairs on my head when it is longer. :confused:

All of my hair fit into these pony tails, I am 100% sure. They were not pig tails, I put one at the nape of my neck, then I pulled loose all of the hairs that didn't fit and put that in a pony on top of my head. I double checked to make sure all the hairs were secure. DH measured them with a tape measure. He's a chemist so I will say that he's pretty trustworthy as far as measuring stuff goes. Our tape measure is accurate to the nearest .2 cm. Seriously you guys have no idea how much of a nerd I am. :laugh:

I wouldn't be making announcements if I wasn't 100% sure. :)

Measure it when wet or measure it after you have added in leave in cond. or oil. Your hair looks like a ii to me.

I started out with 2.4 hair and now I'm at 2.75. What I changed:

* biotin (can cause acne, not an issue for me)
* biosil (pain in the behind to take cause it's drops, Amazon has it)
* monistat (recently addition. Seems to decrease the shedding for me and thicken the hair shaft. Using it to see if it can combat the natural hair shaft thinning from decrease of estrogen with aging and increase in testorone. Testerone doesn't increase but the ratio is changed which can cause some male pattern thinning in some women. My dad was bald so...

You have really cute hair btw. I love it. Looks so healthy.

[bumblebums]

I'm having a hard time understanding why I would get more hairs on my head when it is longer. :confused:


The measurement error increases the more measurements you make. Look up Bonferroni corrections if you want the geek treatment :)

More specific to the hair question, many of the hairs that you *could* be including in the "one" pony tail have not yet reached a length that allows them to be measured yet. At your current length, many of the hairs on the top of your head have not reached your nape yet. The longer your hair gets, the more hairs can be included in the pony tail. You are only able to measure the longest hairs, which are not necessarily all the hairs you have on your head.

This said, I would recommend against obsessing over thickness... Unless you are worried about hair loss, measuring your pony tail causes more anxiety than insight, I think.

[teela1978]

I'm not certain your math is right... I can't get rid of pi from my equation, and it looks very different from yours...

[holothuroidea]

The measurement error increases the more measurements you make. Look up Bonferroni corrections if you want the geek treatment :)

More specific to the hair question, many of the hairs that you *could* be including in the "one" pony tail have not yet reached a length that allows them to be measured yet. At your current length, many of the hairs on the top of your head have not reached your nape yet. The longer your hair gets, the more hairs can be included in the pony tail. You are only able to measure the longest hairs, which are not necessarily all the hairs you have on your head.

This said, I would recommend against obsessing over thickness... Unless you are worried about hair loss, measuring your pony tail causes more anxiety than insight, I think.

Like I said I made two to make sure all the hair was in them, I pulled out the loose hairs that were trapped under the ones in the nape pony tail. I thought I did a thorough job.

I do understand that the extra measurment increases the error, I don't think it makes the difference between thin hair and average hair, though. Considering the error I am at the very least a i/ii.

I'm definitely not obsessing. This was more of an affirmation for me, acknowledging my hair for what it is so I can consider my goals and move on to enjoying it more. :shrug:


I'm not certain your math is right... I can't get rid of pi from my equation, and it looks very different from yours...

What does your equation look like? If you want I can scan in a picture of my math to check.

[holothuroidea]

It seems like most people want to convince me my hair is not thin. :confused:

[bumblebums]

It seems like most people want to convince me my hair is not thin. :confused:

Not really. But you can have some more fun with the hair math with these formulas:

circumference = 3.1416*2*radius
area = 3.1416*radius^2 ( ^ = to the power of)

If all you know is the area, you can calculate the circumference, and vice versa. Since the area of one big ponytail is assumed to be twice the area of half-ponytails, you can calculate the circumference of the big pony given the circumference of a half-pony, but the formula will have some pis and some square roots and so on in it. Your formula isn't really right for this calculation :)

[GlennaGirl]

I'm having a hard time understanding why I would get more hairs on my head when it is longer. :confused:



Like I said, it's impossible for me to explain it, but I've done a lot of measuring, and my hair definitely measures thicker when it's longer.

I don't have a good explanation.

[holothuroidea]

Measure it when wet or measure it after you have added in leave in cond. or oil. Your hair looks like a ii to me.

Well that would probably make a huge difference. Are we supposed to measure when wet? The hair typing guide doesn't specify.


You have really cute hair btw. I love it. Looks so healthy.

Thank you!! :D

[holothuroidea]

Not really. But you can have some more fun with the hair math with these formulas:

circumference = 3.1416*2*radius
area = 3.1416*radius^2 ( ^ = to the power of)

If all you know is the area, you can calculate the circumference, and vice versa. Since the area of one big ponytail is assumed to be twice the area of half-ponytails, you can calculate the circumference of the big pony given the circumference of a half-pony, but the formula will have some pis and some square roots and so on in it. Your formula isn't really right for this calculation :)

Okay well my formula definitely has a square root in it. LOL

I did it long hand to get the 5 cm. After that I went through the calculations with variables c1 and c2 to come up with a formula, and I put the numbers in it to check the algebra.

I know the formulas. I mean, did I take diffEq in college for nothing? It was a while ago and I might have messed up on some algebra but honestly this post was a little condescending. Did you even read my OP? Did I really come across like I don't know that the circumference of a circle is two pi r?

Tomorrow I'll scan in the work. I'd appreciate an algebra check. Like I said my DH went through it, too, but we both might have missed something. Not a lot of algebra in chemistry, after all. We might be out of practice.

Oh and just to reflect the tone of your post, the correct way to write in the formula for the area of a circle in plain text is area=3.1416*(radius^2), other wise someone who doesn't know the formula might plug in numbers like this... area=(3.1416*radius)^2

[GlennaGirl]

It seems like most people want to convince me my hair is not thin. :confused:

I do think your hair is thin. Like I said before, thin hair can be gorgeous. It really is all a matter of perspective, though. I think you should take people's comments at face value. :) (JMO)

[holothuroidea]

Like I said, it's impossible for me to explain it, but I've done a lot of measuring, and my hair definitely measures thicker when it's longer.

I don't have a good explanation.

I'll take your word for it. :) I wonder if individual hairs get thicker as they grow longer. :hmm: I will measure again once my shortest layers are at shoulder, which seems to be the general consensus.

For now I will keep it at i because numbers don't lie. Unless of course I find there was a problem with my math.

[holothuroidea]

I do think your hair is thin. Like I said before, thin hair can be gorgeous. It really is all a matter of perspective, though. I think you should take people's comments at face value. :) (JMO)

Thank you. I do think thin hair has it's own beauty.

I am taking comments at face value. I saw 5 posters out of 10 tell me my hair wasn't thin, maybe it's not "most" but it's pretty close. I'm just confused about it, that's all. :shrug:

[BeckyAH]

I am not going to add to the dissent, but I think some of the problem is that:

a-) Individual strands do often get thicker as they get longer and it moves away from the scalp/new growth.

b-) hair is in a constant shed/regrowth cycle, with every hair of every length on your head. I have hair that is 2 inches long 9not my bangs) right now, that won't fit into my pony tail. I have other hair that fits under the pony tail holder, but not under it. So numbers vary, a lot.

c-) humidity impacts it - just like it impacts the weight of, for instance, yarn. It swells and shrinks a bit with how much moisture is/isn't in the air and in your hair.


Again: Not telling you that you, or your math, are wrong. Just that hair is a variable that, well, varies.

PS I agree that it's odd that people are saying both 'thin hair can be pretty!' while trying to convince you that your hair isn't thin, like thin is a bad thing. Frankly, I like your hair. A lot. Like - if I had thin straight hair, I'd cut it like yours is, in your sig. Not that I don't have a scissors bug thing going on right now, or anything :p

[holothuroidea]

I am not going to add to the dissent, but I think some of the problem is that:

a-) Individual strands do often get thicker as they get longer and it moves away from the scalp/new growth.

b-) hair is in a constant shed/regrowth cycle, with every hair of every length on your head. I have hair that is 2 inches long 9not my bangs) right now, that won't fit into my pony tail. I have other hair that fits under the pony tail holder, but not under it. So numbers vary, a lot.

c-) humidity impacts it - just like it impacts the weight of, for instance, yarn. It swells and shrinks a bit.


Again: you're still a i, don't get me wrong, but while numbers don't lie - hair is a variable that... varies.

DISSENT!!! :laugh:
I LOLed at the bolded part. :D

You are right, though. And it is so close to 2 inches that it might pass over and back the i/ii threshold periodically. Now I'm tempted to change it back.

Damn you short hair not working for hair typing!!!!! I can't get my wave pattern down either and I have no idea if it's 1c/2a or not. :mad:

This is what I get for thinking about my hair too much. Better to just forget about it until it's APL and then I can hang out with the long hairs in the mane forum.

Oh geez, can't you just picture me with a super pouty face kicking at the dirt? :laugh:

[holothuroidea]

PS I agree that it's odd that people are saying both 'thin hair can be pretty!' while trying to convince you that your hair isn't thin, like thin is a bad thing. Frankly, I like your hair. A lot. Like - if I had thin straight hair, I'd cut it like yours is, in your sig. Not that I don't have a scissors bug thing going on right now, or anything :p

Thank you for understanding that. I thought I might have been crazy.

Also thanks for liking my hair! I don't plan on keeping it short, though. ;) And this is totally not a hair cut. This is grown out from The Worst Haircut in the History of Scissors, you have no idea.

If you're having scissor itch, grab a pair of scissors and scratch them. Then put them away.

[BeckyAH]

Thank you for understanding that. I thought I might have been crazy.

Also thanks for liking my hair! I don't plan on keeping it short, though. ;) And this is totally not a hair cut. This is grown out from The Worst Haircut in the History of Scissors, you have no idea.

If you're having scissor itch, grab a pair of scissors and scratch them. Then put them away.

I totally, totally understand the frustration and you are totally not crazy.

I actually handled it by smacking my montly veggie dye on a couple of days early. Being Bright!Blue! for a while will likely get me over the "OMG I HATE MY HAIR" Hump for a bit.

And man, last year I was about where you are. Which is 'growing out the worst cut in the history of ever'. ...Oh well, good motivation to stay away from the scissors, anyway.

[AndreaPetrea]

PS I agree that it's odd that people are saying both 'thin hair can be pretty!' while trying to convince you that your hair isn't thin, like thin is a bad thing.

Exactly. I know it's meant in the best way, but it's like when people are saying "Yeah, you have small breasts, but they have a nice shape" or "small breasts can also look good" or "they're pretty even though they are small" (there are more, I just can't remember them now). They are meant to be compliments to small breasts, but the message really is "big are better". Oh, how I hate that. Or the "as long as they are not TOO small". Huh?! People think that it helps, but no. It doesn't.

[auburntressed]

Maybe some of the confusion... there is a difference between "thin" hair and "thinning" hair. Many people have lost hair and feel sad at its thinning - especially if bits of scalp are poking through. Or, in the case of age-related thinning, I think it is natural to feel a little wistful at noticing something lost from one's youth?

But thin hair as in... how your hair naturally is, at its best, is totally different.

Maybe the people who are saying, "Thin hair is lovely, but you don't look like your hair is thin..." are really meaning to say that you don't look like you have hair loss.

Well, okay... maybe THAT would sound a bit odd, too, since this thread is not about hair loss or regaining lost hair. :confused: Okay, I'm stumped then.

I'm gonna stick with... naturally thin hair is lovely (at least the naturally thin hair that I've seen IRL is lovely as well as many of the pictures on this board I've seen).

Thinning hair can be frustrating and heartbreaking to its owner, but still does not necessarily look bad.

[Hollyfire3]

Exactly. I know it's meant in the best way, but it's like when people are saying "Yeah, you have small breasts, but they have a nice shape" or "small breasts can also look good" or "they're pretty even though they are small" (there are more, I just can't remember them now). They are meant to be compliments to small breasts, but the message really is "big are better". Oh, how I hate that. Or the "as long as they are not TOO small". Huh?! People think that it helps, but no. It doesn't.

This, so true about me...sadly...not at all hair related but still

[Pierre]

It's just the Pythagorean theorem. The pi cancels out. I did the same thing once, except that my ponytails were left and right rather than top and bottom.

[holothuroidea]

This, so true about me...sadly...not at all hair related but still

I had small breasts before I had babies, and larger ones now. They both have their advantages. Small breasts remind me of youthfulness and look very delicate. I remember never being able to achieve anything like "cleavage," though. It's frustrating when everywhere you see pictures of women with amazing cleavage and you wonder why your body isn't like that.

Looking back, though, I do sometimes feel wistful for my once-small breasts. They were lovely. :D

[holothuroidea]

It's just the Pythagorean theorem. The pi cancels out. I did the same thing once, except that my ponytails were left and right rather than top and bottom.

Yeah, like I said, a formula that has been around forever that I was too stupid to look up/think of. :laugh:

Did you find that your circumference measurement was different once your hair grew out?

[holothuroidea]

I appreciate everyone's input and compliments and I in no way think that they were said underhandedly. I do think that there is an underlying "thicker is better" mentality, and that's okay.

I really don't want to harp on this because I know nobody meant for their comment to be taken that way. :flower:

@AndreaPetrea- Yeah, it is somewhat similar. We all know that bigger is better when it comes to breasts. Otherwise they wouldn't sell these bras that increase your boobs appearance by 2 cup sizes and what not. Not to mention that smaller-breasted women are somewhat underrepresented, especially when it comes to sexy imagery. I think the same is true for thick/thin hair.

My favorite small breast compliment was, "They're not small, they're proportional. They look good on you." :confused: LOL

@auburntressed- That's true, and it does make a difference. I had not thought of that.

[holothuroidea]

:doh: !!

I just remembered that I had a huge postpartum shed in November/December. The regrowth is nowhere near being able to fit in pony tails.

Those hairs are probably going to make a huge difference when they're long enough.

[AndreaPetrea]

@AndreaPetrea- Yeah, it is somewhat similar. We all know that bigger is better when it comes to breasts. Otherwise they wouldn't sell these bras that increase your boobs appearance by 2 cup sizes and what not. Not to mention that smaller-breasted women are somewhat underrepresented, especially when it comes to sexy imagery. I think the same is true for thick/thin hair.

My favorite small breast compliment was, "They're not small, they're proportional. They look good on you." :confused: LOL
.

Oh yes, "proportional", lol! Hate that one! No, I'm not that skinny. My small breasts (I seriously can't get a cleavage to save my life) make me look skinnier than I am.

I know that thick hair and big boobs are viewed as "better". But I think it's important to continue to show that different can be pretty. I have thought about breast augmentation so many times, but 1) I want to be able to say "my body is 100% mine" and 2) It would make it even worse for small-boobed (is that a word?) women. "Yeah, your small breasts are nice... I just don't want them"... "Oh, sorry, one less out there like you".

Sorry, total thread hijack :laugh:


:doh: !!

I just remembered that I had a huge postpartum shed in November/December. The regrowth is nowhere near being able to fit in pony tails.

Those hairs are probably going to make a huge difference when they're long enough.

LOL!!! I like how you can forget something like that :D

And: Your hair is beautiful! I can't wait to see what your waves will look like when your hair is longer!

[bumblebums]

I know the formulas. I mean, did I take diffEq in college for nothing? It was a while ago and I might have messed up on some algebra but honestly this post was a little condescending. Did you even read my OP? Did I really come across like I don't know that the circumference of a circle is two pi r?


You certainly do get defensive. I am unsubscribing from this thread now--have fun with your calculations.

[holothuroidea]

You certainly do get defensive. I am unsubscribing from this thread now--have fun with your calculations.

Yes I suppose I do defend myself. :shrug:

[holothuroidea]

LOL!!! I like how you can forget something like that :D

And: Your hair is beautiful! I can't wait to see what your waves will look like when your hair is longer!

I know, really! Seems like an important thing to remember when considering the thickness of hair.

Thank you so much! ^_^ I can't wait either, my waves are a great mystery waiting to be revealed. :laugh:

[summergreen]

I think holothuroidea has pretty hair, whatever the measurement is :)

Now then, what I really want to know is - why is hair maths so complicated?! Because if I'd been trying to get the circumference from 2 ponytails, I would have been: ' oh, a 1 inch (or whatever) pony plus a 1 inch pony equals a 2 inch pony'!! Please explain (in words of one syllable lol- I know I'm hopeless at maths but would really like to know!)

ETA: just read this post back and realised how far I have lowered the intellectual level of this thread, sorry maths guys!

[GlennaGirl]

I miss my small breasts. Badly. I'm trying to diet my way back down to them. Esthetically. Looks-wise. Just prettier. :p

Sorry for the continuation of a sidetrack.

[holothuroidea]

I miss my small breasts. Badly. I'm trying to diet my way back down to them. Esthetically. Looks-wise. Just prettier. :p

Sorry for the continuation of a sidetrack.

Sidetracks are a healthy and normal part of a thread's life. :laugh:

[holothuroidea]

I think holothuroidea has pretty hair, whatever the measurement is :)

Now then, what I really want to know is - why is hair maths so complicated?! Because if I'd been trying to get the circumference from 2 ponytails, I would have been: ' oh, a 1 inch (or whatever) pony plus a 1 inch pony equals a 2 inch pony'!! Please explain (in words of one syllable lol- I know I'm hopeless at maths but would really like to know!)

ETA: just read this post back and realised how far I have lowered the intellectual level of this thread, sorry maths guys!

Thank you!! :D

You have not lowered the intellectual level of this thread. It's a reasonable question. One I don't have a reasonable answer for! :laugh: If I was really smart I'd be able to explain it better.

Thickness is measured in circumference, but when you split your pony into pigtails, you are dividing the area not the circumference. So they are not additive.

You can test it yourself if you have some dry spaghetti laying around. Take a handful and count how many pastas are in the bunch. Then measure the circumference. Now, split the spaghetti bundle into two bundles and measure their circumferences. They're not going to add up to the circumference of the whole bunch.

As for explaining why, you're going to have to find yourself a geometry teacher because I don't have that explanation. :o

[summergreen]

Oooh thanks holo, I will be trying that! I find this kind of thing interesting (and yes theres always spaghetti in this house!)

[Hollyfire3]

I had small breasts before I had babies, and larger ones now. They both have their advantages. Small breasts remind me of youthfulness and look very delicate. I remember never being able to achieve anything like "cleavage," though. It's frustrating when everywhere you see pictures of women with amazing cleavage and you wonder why your body isn't like that.

Looking back, though, I do sometimes feel wistful for my once-small breasts. They were lovely. :D

Aww, thanks for the encouragement! I chalk my chest issues as just another reason to be a bit more like Piper (compared to Phoebe and Paige she is well...less endowed..she's a small B, like me)...(for those of you who don't already think I'm obssessed...here's more proof...I have a life really, and it doesn't revolve around Charmed at all but in private time, I think Holly Marie Combs is beautiful and is my idol...take it or leave it, its fine with me lol)
So really, I have come to terms with it, but you are right cleavage...non existent without the right shirt and lots of padding! I just think for a short person, I look alright with what I have

[Hollyfire3]

Oh yes, "proportional", lol! Hate that one! No, I'm not that skinny. My small breasts (I seriously can't get a cleavage to save my life) make me look skinnier than I am.

I know that thick hair and big boobs are viewed as "better". But I think it's important to continue to show that different can be pretty. I have thought about breast augmentation so many times, but 1) I want to be able to say "my body is 100% mine" and 2) It would make it even worse for small-boobed (is that a word?) women. "Yeah, your small breasts are nice... I just don't want them"... "Oh, sorry, one less out there like you".

Sorry, total thread hijack :laugh:



LOL!!! I like how you can forget something like that :D

And: Your hair is beautiful! I can't wait to see what your waves will look like when your hair is longer!

I get the proportional thing too...its the most common remark when size is mentioned..."nice going mousebrains," I always think when someone says it, you just found ANOTHER snynom for the word "small"

[AndreaPetrea]

I get the proportional thing too...its the most common remark when size is mentioned..."nice going mousebrains," I always think when someone says it, you just found ANOTHER snynom for the word "small"

Haha, I'm sitting here laughing :laugh:

[Audrey Horne]

I think that hair can look nice even when on a thinner side. But then it has to be in a top condition if it's F, IMO. And no, not everyone prefers bigger, thicker, longer, etc. People have different preferences both women and men! Don't buy into the media/fashion agenda. Beauty ideals change - hair, body types, what not. Why to follow, embrace the difference :)

[Hollyfire3]

Haha, I'm sitting here laughing :laugh:

Yeah, its pretty funny! And true! I just listen and go on with my life, embracing my "proportions" you should too! :D

[Bonny]

Okay, the geek in me could not resist calculating the formula for the total hair circumference given the circumference of two ponytails. :)

I came up with the same formula as Holo did:



c= (c1^2 + c2^2)^1/2


In other words:

total circumference = square root of [circumference1 squared + circumference2 squared]


I'm not certain your math is right... I can't get rid of pi from my equation, and it looks very different from yours...



If all you know is the area, you can calculate the circumference, and vice versa. Since the area of one big ponytail is assumed to be twice the area of half-ponytails, you can calculate the circumference of the big pony given the circumference of a half-pony, but the formula will have some pis and some square roots and so on in it. Your formula isn't really right for this calculation

If you simplify the formula, you will find that the pi cancels out since it occurs in all terms of the equation. And Holo's formula does have square roots in it - perhaps you didn't recognize the notation. Raising a number to a fractional power is the same as taking a root.


It's just the Pythagorean theorem. The pi cancels out.

It comes out to the same formula as the Pythagorean theorem, but I always associate Pythagoras with triangles!

And, if you haven't had enough geekery yet, you can generalize this formula to any number of ponytails. If n is the number of ponytails, then the total circumference is
(c1^2 + c2^2 + ... + cn^2)^1/2

:D

/end geekery

[EdG]

The formula makes sense. Area is proportional to the square of the circumference. The areas are additive. Then, we convert the total area back to circumference. The constant multipliers (pi and 0.5) cancel out.

I too like hair math. :cheese:
Ed

[holothuroidea]

Thank you, Bonny and EdG for the confirmation. :D

It's good to know that my brain still works after 4 years of being a stay at home mom. Some days I have doubts! :laugh:

[ladylowtide]

Congrats on another milestone!

I love the look of F/i and F/i/ii long hair. It looks so floaty and ethereal like a noble women's hair :D Plus you have such a pretty shade of blonde!

Keep on growin!

[luxepiggy]

I, too, couldn't resist doing the math, and got the same formula (^(oo)^)v

[barely.there]

Your ponytail circumference may become larger as your hair grows out more. happened to me. Give it time :)

[gogirlanime]

And thick hair is a pain when it's hot outside.
It takes hours to dry.
More hair = more tangles.
You have to use way more conditioner (and oils, and whatever you put on your hair)
You have to have much longer hair than fine haired to do most of the buns.
Buns don't stay in place.
You can't use fragile/cheap hair toys because they break.
They're often too heavy and you have to redo them to distribute the weight evenly.
Braids eats up all of the length.
...

Shortly put : every type of hair has its down sides, just focus on the good points :)

Very true, I haven't measured my pony in awhile I might have i but I think i have i/ii hair. I never thought of that, less of everything with thinner hair that is a plus because I don't have the time to take care of my hair more.

[battle_angel]

holothuroidea, I can understand your disappointment at having thin hair, as mine too is thin but I will keep my hopes up for you until it's longer - maybe the ponytail will be thicker once your new regrowth fits into it ?

I personally couldn't stand my thin hair for most part of my life - I've kept it into a pixie for the last 15 years, but now I'm determined to learn everything I can about haircare and hairstyling and have another go at it. Who knows, maybe I will learn to like it... The community here at LHC is great and I believe we can support each other in this endeavor - what do you think?

(Side track: I also have small breasts and zero cleavage - but I never minded that, I've always liked them :P )

[Pierre]

If you simplify the formula, you will find that the pi cancels out since it occurs in all terms of the equation. And Holo's formula does have square roots in it - perhaps It comes out to the same formula as the Pythagorean theorem, but I always associate Pythagoras with triangles!
When Holo measures triangles, they turn into trepangles :D

[hellucy]

the circumference of the combined areas is equal to the square root of the square of the first plus the square of the second. Which I'm sure is a formula that has been around forever but I was too stupid to look up. :laugh:

c= (c1^2 + c2^2)^1/2

I just used the formula (I'm not much good at math so I typed all the numbers & symbols straight into my phones calculator) and apparently all my hair combined (bangs & all shorter layers) would give me a ponytail of 3.88" circumference! not quite an iii but nearly!
My single ponytail without wispy side layers & bangs added is 3.25" all those extra layers will make a big difference when they finally grow into my ponytail.

[holothuroidea]

When Holo measures triangles, they turn into trepangles :D

:rollin:

Where do you get this stuff!? You are a walking encyclopedia, or else a marine biologist. :D :D

This search actually took me a couple tries so here's a link to save google some traffic. :laugh: What's a trepangle? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepang)

[holothuroidea]

I just used the formula (I'm not much good at math so I typed all the numbers & symbols straight into my phones calculator) and apparently all my hair combined (bangs & all shorter layers) would give me a ponytail of 3.88" circumference! not quite an iii but nearly!
My single ponytail without wispy side layers & bangs added is 3.25" all those extra layers will make a big difference when they finally grow into my ponytail.

Yaaay!! :D

[florenonite]

I think no matter what your thickness you'll sometimes wish it's thinner or thicker than it is. I'm a iii, and I often wish my hair was thinner so I could do more buns, but then I see pictures of women with braids as thick as my wrist and wish it were thicker.



My favorite small breast compliment was, "They're not small, they're proportional. They look good on you." :confused: LOL


D'you mind helping a big-breasted girl understand? I'm not trying to be offensive here; I'm genuinely confused.

I see saying that your breasts are proportional as a genuine compliment, because it means your entire figure looks balanced. I guess the 'They're not small' bit can come off as condescending, because it implies there's something bad about small breasts, but the way a pair of breasts looks on a particular body has everything to do with proportion.

Maybe I'm just looking back at when I had small breasts with rose-tinted glasses, but I don't see what's wrong with being told your figure is proportional :shrug:

[holothuroidea]

D'you mind helping a big-breasted girl understand? I'm not trying to be offensive here; I'm genuinely confused.

I see saying that your breasts are proportional as a genuine compliment, because it means your entire figure looks balanced. I guess the 'They're not small' bit can come off as condescending, because it implies there's something bad about small breasts, but the way a pair of breasts looks on a particular body has everything to do with proportion.

Maybe I'm just looking back at when I had small breasts with rose-tinted glasses, but I don't see what's wrong with being told your figure is proportional :shrug:

Being in proportion is good, yes, and in that context it is a genuine compliment.

However, small breasted proportions are not really held up as the "ideal" in our culture. "Well, they're proportional" is like the consolation prize for not having large breasts.

I had many more comments on my breasts when they were small. I don't know if it's because now that I'm a mother I am invisible, or because since they are average sized they are unremarkable.

If things are truly proportional I wouldn't see a need to comment on them in the first place because they would just look "normal." KWIM?

[florenonite]

Being in proportion is good, yes, and in that context it is a genuine compliment.

However, small breasted proportions are not really held up as the "ideal" in our culture. "Well, they're proportional" is like the consolation prize for not having large breasts.

I had many more comments on my breasts when they were small. I don't know if it's because now that I'm a mother I am invisible, or because since they are average sized they are unremarkable.

If things are truly proportional I wouldn't see a need to comment on them in the first place because they would just look "normal." KWIM?

Thanks for the explanation :)

FTR, when I think of someone saying 'your breasts are proportional', it's not out of the blue (because it's kind of unremarkably so why comment?) but in a context of someone feeling insecure because she has small breasts, so the 'you're proportional' means that she looks good as she is, KWIM?

[holothuroidea]

Thanks for the explanation :)

FTR, when I think of someone saying 'your breasts are proportional', it's not out of the blue (because it's kind of unremarkably so why comment?) but in a context of someone feeling insecure because she has small breasts, so the 'you're proportional' means that she looks good as she is, KWIM?

Yeah, that's what I mean about it being more of a consolation than a compliment.

In a situation where you were impressed with someone's appearance and wanted to give a compliment "proportional" would probably never come up.

[florenonite]

Yeah, that's what I mean about it being more of a consolation than a compliment.

In a situation where you were impressed with someone's appearance and wanted to give a compliment "proportional" would probably never come up.

I dunno that it's a consolation. I mean, if I was complaining because I thought my breasts were too small and someone says, "They suit you; they're proportionate" I'd take that to mean they genuinely thought my figure looked good and my breasts weren't "too small".

I mean, no one goes around saying "You've got huge breasts" as a compliment, either.

[heidi w.]

I've been avoiding the main forum in an attempt to ignore my hair. Well last night I couldn't help myself and started playing with it I was surprised to find that I could fit it into two ponytails (yay at small milestone!)

Since my thickness stat was estimated from my memory of when my hair used to be long over 3 years ago, I thought it would be fun to figure out my pony tail circumference.

So I did some math to figure out from my two pony tails what the circumference of one would be. I used the circumference of each to calculate the radius of the two circles, and used that to calculate the areas. Then I added the areas together and then solved for the radius again to calculate the circumference of the one circle.

I'm pretty bad at describing math in words LOL. You get down to a simple formula that the circumference of the combined areas is equal to the square root of the square of the first plus the square of the second. Which I'm sure is a formula that has been around forever but I was too stupid to look up. :laugh:

c= (c1^2 + c2^2)^1/2

Anyway, my pony tail circumference came out to 5cm (Just under 2inches). So I am solidly a i.

I can't say I'm surprised, but I am a bit dissappointed. I was hoping that maybe my hair wasn't as thin as I remembered it, or that the damage thinned it out and it would be thicker now that I'm taking proper care of it. Apparently that's not the case, I just have wispy thin hair.

So now I'm on a mission to learn to appreciate my newly confirmed thinness. :)

ETA: It is very possible my math is wrong. I haven't done any algebra in 4 years so I'm a bit rusty. I had DH confirm everything I did, but he was kind of looking at me like I had two heads for even trying to do "hair math" in the first place. :D

Maybe this is the way to get girls interested in math and science. Tell them they'll be beautiful afterwards! You may be on to something....

I see a word problem in the future!
heidi w.

[heidi w.]

I dunno that it's a consolation. I mean, if I was complaining because I thought my breasts were too small and someone says, "They suit you; they're proportionate" I'd take that to mean they genuinely thought my figure looked good and my breasts weren't "too small".

I mean, no one goes around saying "You've got huge breasts" as a compliment, either.

No, people just stare at your breasts, and leer. And then they look up and say "hello". It's annoying, really. Just ask my sister. Blouses that button are a pain.

heidi w.

[cuties]

I dunno that it's a consolation. I mean, if I was complaining because I thought my breasts were too small and someone says, "They suit you; they're proportionate" I'd take that to mean they genuinely thought my figure looked good and my breasts weren't "too small".

I mean, no one goes around saying "You've got huge breasts" as a compliment, either.

Trade them with me. Seriously I like to wear the cute tank tops but I can't because my top part is so heavy.:(

[florenonite]

Trade them with me. Seriously I like to wear the cute tank tops but I can't because my top part is so heavy.:(

I have the same problem. I used to be small-chested (and loved it), then puberty hit me like a double-decker bus when I turned 18.

[islandboo]

As far as measuring, I have seen a difference of up to 0.5cm in my thickness (unfortunately, it comes and goes, rather than trending up, LOL). I think it is due to humidity issues and possibly hair coatings like leave-in conditioner as well as technique (although I measure 3 times and average, and my measurements generally do match within a mm or two). Still, I remain a i regardless. While I have taken good care of my hair for years before joining up here (air drying, no styling tools, BB brush, etc), I have only been truly babying it for the past year (protective updos, sleep cap, etc) so I suppose it is possible that I might see an increase in circumference in the next year as those hairs make their way down toward my nape. But I am pretty much resigned to having thin, fine hair and I am coming around to appreciating it more and more. Also, since it is more difficult to get thin, fine hair to longer lengths, I feel like I am part of some super-exclusive club :p

[holothuroidea]

As far as measuring, I have seen a difference of up to 0.5cm in my thickness (unfortunately, it comes and goes, rather than trending up, LOL). I think it is due to humidity issues and possibly hair coatings like leave-in conditioner as well as technique (although I measure 3 times and average, and my measurements generally do match within a mm or two). Still, I remain a i regardless. While I have taken good care of my hair for years before joining up here (air drying, no styling tools, BB brush, etc), I have only been truly babying it for the past year (protective updos, sleep cap, etc) so I suppose it is possible that I might see an increase in circumference in the next year as those hairs make their way down toward my nape. But I am pretty much resigned to having thin, fine hair and I am coming around to appreciating it more and more. Also, since it is more difficult to get thin, fine hair to longer lengths, I feel like I am part of some super-exclusive club :p

I would feel really privileged to be in the same club as you!I think your hair is so pretty. ^_^

Not to be a creeper or anything. :D

[Slug Yoga]

I'm having a hard time understanding why I would get more hairs on my head when it is longer. :confused:

It took me a really long time to wrap my mind around how this works... lemme see if I can explain it. I was contemplating my hair-taper, reading the threads and people saying, "Keep growing it and the taper will diminish." That was encouraging, but because I didn't understand why, it wasn't all *that* encouraging.

Ok, as you probably know, there are 3 stages of hair growth. Basically, the phase where's it's growing, the phase where it's not growing any more and just chills on your head for a brief period, and the phase where that hair falls out and the follicle rests, before a new hair starts to grow. Follicles in different stages are staggered all over your head, which is good, because otherwise when our hairs shed we'd go through cycles of total baldness, or at least bald patches.

So at any given point, with the hair that is in the growing phase: you have hairs that have JUST started growing, all the way from hairs that are about to stop growing and then fall out. Say you have hair at BSL (or shoulder length, or TB length, or whatever, really). The longest hairs on your head, the hairs at BSL at your hemline, are also of different ages. Some are as "young" as possible--they just barely reached that length. Some are as old as possible--they have been growing for years, have been cut several times, and are about to fall out.

But there are also tons of individual hairs that are not at BSL. Some recently shed and have started to grow again and are like 1 cm from your scalp. Some shed a couple years ago and then started regrowing are now at your shoulders. And everything in between. Some are "not there" at all, because they shed a few weeks ago and are in the resting phase. But if you keep your hair at BSL, all those hairs not currently at BSL will keep growing. The one that was at 1 cm will be at BSL, the ones that were at your shoulders will be at BSL, the ones that were "not there" will be at BSL, and the ones that were already at BSL will still be at BSL.

Not counting for the hairs that have shed, obviously, and we are pretending here that every hair on you head has the exact same growth phase which is probably not true. But still, what you end up with is: the number of hairs at BSL length several years ago, are way fewer than the number of hairs at BSL length now. So even if your hair is the exact same length, it's now thicker.

So basically, for your hair to have maximum thickness at whatever length it is, your hair needs to have been at that length *for the entire average lifespan of your hair growth phase.* This solved the mystery for me of why a cut-off ponytail, saved from an earlier haircut, was much thicker all along its length than the ponytail on my head then--I'd maintained long hair for years at that point, as opposed to growing straight from a pixie. I had wondered if maybe my hair was just more taper-y now than when I was a teenager, but I don't think that's the case, I think it's because I was growing from a pixie, with almost no trims.

Soo, anyway, in addition to the difficulty of gathering your hair into 1 or 2 ponytails at your length, where some hairs are inevitably going to escape, you won't get the most accurate impression until it is at the length where you can get it all into one ponytail--*and* your hair has been at that length or greater for some time.

Does that make sense?

I think I've got this right, in any case, or at least more or less right. Someone jump in and correct me, if there's something I overlooked. :cheese:

[holothuroidea]

o_o

OOOOOoooOOOOhhh

I'm going to mull that one over for a little bit, Slug Yoga. Thank you!!

[Gulbahar]

:doh: !!

I just remembered that I had a huge postpartum shed in November/December. The regrowth is nowhere near being able to fit in pony tails.

Those hairs are probably going to make a huge difference when they're long enough.
In this case you will probably see a noticable increase in thickness. From your picture and at your length I couldn't even tell if your hair is thin or not.
I was shedding so bad for quite a while and could stop it only two years ago (it was a biotin deficiency). The new growth is still trying to catch up. One year ago my hair looked messy most of the time when it had been in an updo for more than half an hour. All those short hairs always escaped. Now it's better, but I still don't like wearing a braid because the difference is very pronounced. My circumference has increased by almost one inch in the last two years.

As for small breasts - I love mine and always have. Also people don't really comment on them (I'd find that extremely rude). All the guys I have been involved with liked them a lot and were definitely not attracted to big breasts. Not that it's at all bad to be well endowed but tastes vary a lot. I'd never worry about this.

[islandboo]

I would feel really privileged to be in the same club as you!I think your hair is so pretty. ^_^

Give it a few years and you will be! :D


Not to be a creeper or anything. :D:p

[zombi]

welcome to the thin hair club (: