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Phalaenopsis
April 11th, 2012, 03:57 AM
I was wondering if there are more people who are suffering from this. I lightened my hair with honey thinking it would do no harm, but it did.

I'm a bit confused now what I can use on my hair. I've gotten really afraid of SMTs (honey + moisture). I also have frizz, which I'm not used to having. The only things that keep my damage under control a bit are the AO honeysucklerose conditioner and the AO GPB conditioner, and oiling my hair like crazy. But really smooth and shiny hair? Forget it :(

I used to love honey in the body shop shampoo and conditioner, it gave a pretty golden glow, but now I'm too afraid to even put it in a conditioner, once my hair is healthy.

I'ven been growing out for a year, it still will take forever to grow out :( I sometimes seriously consider cutting.

Other honey bleach sufferers out there?

edit: I want to emphasize that this is a support thread, not a question if it's because of honey, because it very certainly is

MinderMutsig
April 11th, 2012, 04:19 AM
Oh wow I had no idea it could be this damaging. I've been considering honey lightning to get my hair just a tiny bit lighter but I see I'll have to research it some more. I've spent the last couple of years growing out dye, then I had a buzzcut and now I'm at BSL and while I didn't mind the journey I wouldn't want to repeat it again.

aisling
April 11th, 2012, 04:40 AM
Not a sufferer, just a person who thinks honey lightning is overrated, it didn't do a thing to my hair. It's good that you speak up, not everybody has had great experiences.

rock007junkie
April 11th, 2012, 05:49 AM
I was not aware that honey could cause damage to hair.

MonaMayfair
April 11th, 2012, 06:04 AM
I've done 13 honey treatments so far (trying to lighten/get rid of henna), and my hair feels gorgeous and is shinier than before. It's lightened several shades.

jel
April 11th, 2012, 06:08 AM
Sorry to hear you had damage from honey lightening.

As I understand it, microwaving the honey for 10 seconds on high (per tablespoonful) destroys the peroxide. You can then use the microwaved honey in SMTs and conditioners. Alternatively, molasses has similar moisturising properties, without the bleaching effect (as far as I am aware - best to do a strand test, anyway!)

Have you tried a protein treatment? It might plaster over the cracks that peroxide left on your hair.

bumblebums
April 11th, 2012, 06:11 AM
I've seen people mention that honey makes their hair frizzy, which is why I stay away from it. I don't need any more frizz than I already have :)

No one thing works for everyone, product-wise.

spidermom
April 11th, 2012, 09:24 AM
I wondered about this when honey lightening was all the rage. I thought "peroxide is peroxide; might as well use Sun-In or similar."

Your hair looks very pretty; it would be a shame to cut it all off. I hope you can find a way to manage it with trims only.

jojo
April 11th, 2012, 09:28 AM
I have done numerous honey treatments and have never found it to cause any damage, maybe you had existing damage prior to using?? though your hair in the photo doesn't look damaged at all to me!

pepperminttea
April 11th, 2012, 10:03 AM
As I understand it, microwaving the honey for 10 seconds on high (per tablespoonful) destroys the peroxide. You can then use the microwaved honey in SMTs and conditioners.

This. It sounds like before the bleach damage, your hair quite liked honey; maybe try just a little zapped in the microwave to get rid of the peroxide? (It also means the SMT mix isn't freezing cold when you apply it, which is nice! :) ) I heat it in the microwave on high for 10-15 seconds (my microwave has a turn dial rather than digital number input, so I can't be exact), it's never lightened my hair that I've noticed.

If worst comes to worst, you can confirm that nope, honey is definitely a no-go for your hair, even without the peroxide. On the other hand, you could discover something to help moisturise your hair and get it through the growing out that little bit more easily. :)

swearnsue
April 11th, 2012, 10:15 AM
I was wondering if there are more people who are suffering from this. I lightened my hair with honey thinking it would do no harm, but it did.

I'm a bit confused now what I can use on my hair. I've gotten really afraid of SMTs (honey + moisture). I also have frizz, which I'm not used to having. The only things that keep my damage under control a bit are the AO honeysucklerose conditioner and the AO GPB conditioner, and oiling my hair like crazy. But really smooth and shiny hair? Forget it :(

I used to love honey in the body shop shampoo and conditioner, it gave a pretty golden glow, but now I'm too afraid to even put it in a conditioner, once my hair is healthy.

I'ven been growing out for a year, it still will take forever to grow out :( I sometimes seriously consider cutting.

Other honey bleach sufferers out there?

We have similar hair types and I have found that henna and cassia has helped my hair alot. I never tried the honey lightening but was going to, but not now! Your hair looks so pretty I wonder if a cassia treatment would help, or a cassia/conditioner gloss would help. I use and love the honeysucklerose conditioner also. Wish I could be of more help and thank you for posting about the dangers, for some of us, of honey lightening

Amethyste
April 11th, 2012, 10:30 AM
might as well just use Color oops... I agree with Spidermom, peroxide is peroxide, no matter the source...

PrincessIdril
April 11th, 2012, 02:28 PM
eek, I was thinking about trying to lighten my hair with honey. But based on what you've said I don't think I'll bother now. My hair frizzes enough as it is.
But your hair does look beautiful in your picture :)

I think I'll try and find a new chamomile shampoo or something for hair lightening instead. Lush used to do a lovely chamomile shampoo but they discontinued it :(

Phalaenopsis
April 12th, 2012, 06:22 AM
My hair before honey bleaching:
In the sun
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/naturalgirl/haar24juni2008.jpg

On a dark day under a tree
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/naturalgirl/haartjesopcastlefest.jpg


After:
Here at it's driest ever
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/naturalgirl/IMG_3811.jpg

In the sun
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/naturalgirl/017-1.jpg

My hair taken inside before honey bleach and after, when I used the Rose Mosqueta conditioner from Aubrey Organics as deep treatment and had been oiling A LOT and didn't wash for days on end. It worked wonders, but you can still see that I have more frizz than I used to and my hair got drier and drier after a day or two:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/naturalgirl/DSCI0249-1-1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/naturalgirl/DSCI0618.jpg

So what I notice from honey bleach is frizz, less smoothness, and suddenly it holds waves better, when it used to not hold it at all. My hair isn't pretty anymore once it has been in a bun because suddenly my ends get weird kinks that stay.

spidermom
April 12th, 2012, 07:24 AM
That's really a shame, Phalaenopsis. I can definitely see the difference in texture.

andrea1982
April 12th, 2012, 07:38 AM
Have you tried some conventional conditioners with protein and cones? My hair especially loved joico products when I used to highlight, the damage seems to give something for these products to hold on to. Now that I have virgin hair (for the first time in my adult life) I'm shocked to find that my hair seems to no longer like cones/heavy conditioners/protien.

gogirlanime
April 12th, 2012, 11:12 AM
I would say do cassia treatments and some nice camellia oil. I'm sorry your hair doesn't agree with honey, I guess it reacts to hair differently, I've done it about 40-50 times and my hair is fine.

look on this bright side: it really doesn't look THAT damaged at least compared to other damage I've seen


Not a sufferer, just a person who thinks honey lightning is overrated, it didn't do a thing to my hair. It's good that you speak up, not everybody has had great experiences.

Some hair types like it and some don't. You have to do it just right and do it many many times. It took me 30 applications to get some true results. As long as you condition your hair well and oil it up well the night after minimal to no damage should occur I haven't seen any.

lapushka
April 12th, 2012, 11:21 AM
So what I notice from honey bleach is frizz, less smoothness, and suddenly it holds waves better, when it used to not hold it at all. My hair isn't pretty anymore once it has been in a bun because suddenly my ends get weird kinks that stay.

Looks like you do have some damage from honey bleaching. I never realized it could do that. Yikes. It does look a little more dry and frizzy. I think it's time for those deep moisturizing conditioners or you could even condition twice (yes even with the deep conditioner) when you wash. Helped me lots when my hair was particularly dry. Hope the damage grows out fast. :flower:

Honeyfall
April 12th, 2012, 11:33 AM
I'm glad I found this before giving lightening a shot myself. If you don't mind me asking, did this happen after just one application or several? I am asking because I wonder if it is possible to spot-test to determine if hair is especially sensitive to honey.

For what it's worth, you still have very lovely hair. :)

Amber_Maiden
April 13th, 2012, 06:15 AM
Your hair is really lovely- I can't really see the damage, to be honest. It just looks lovely!

I'm glad, though, that I had no damage with using honey- even after 17 treatments! But everyone has different hair.

Phalaenopsis
April 13th, 2012, 07:02 AM
Looks like you do have some damage from honey bleaching. I never realized it could do that. Yikes. It does look a little more dry and frizzy. I think it's time for those deep moisturizing conditioners or you could even condition twice (yes even with the deep conditioner) when you wash. Helped me lots when my hair was particularly dry. Hope the damage grows out fast. :flower:
Yeah, I'm using really heavy conditioners like AO honeysuckle. My hair would have never been able to handle that much of nourishment, but now it just sucks it up like nothing.


I'm glad I found this before giving lightening a shot myself. If you don't mind me asking, did this happen after just one application or several? I am asking because I wonder if it is possible to spot-test to determine if hair is especially sensitive to honey.

For what it's worth, you still have very lovely hair. :)
It's the same as with bleach, you feel the damage more and more after a while.


I'm going to buy the Aubrey Organics Rosa Mosqueta conditioner again to do deep treatments.

XcaliburGirl
April 13th, 2012, 07:08 AM
I'm sorry you have damage, Phalaenopsis. Your hair does still look nice. Protein, followed by moisture (not SMT), might be a good idea.

Both times I tried honey, it made my hair an overly-soft ball of frizz. Once was with an SMT, once just honey and olive oil. Both times I microwaved it first for about 10 seconds since I did not want to lighten my hair.

Going back to my normal routine helped. I did notice that my hair seemed less hearty, but I was also using shampoo bars and trying other things around the same time. All that's been cut off by now, since I got a short hair cut.

In any case, I am staying away from honey from now on.

Vampyria
April 13th, 2012, 07:23 AM
I'm sorry that happened to you. Your hair looks really beautiful now.

I also tried to lighten my hair with honey. After third application I haven't noticed damage, but after fourth my hair started tangling like crazy. I even cut it to APL (luckily I planed it before) but it didn't help much. Then I mixed cassia and Aubrey Organics GPB conditioner (I also love their conditioners) and left it for two hours. And it's a lot better now. :) I did that one month ago and I don't know for how long is this going to last.

Anje
April 13th, 2012, 10:32 AM
You can definitely tell it's lost a lot of its silkiness. What a pain!

I'm another who will stick the the mantra that peroxide is peroxide. Some people experience more damage from it than others, but it's always unfortunate when something that you are told will be harmless causes damage.

Since you had luck with SMTs before, have you tried them with a different sugary syrup that's not honey? I've started doing them with corn syrup (dirt cheap in the US). I'll bet you can find treacle or something along those lines that will allow you to do treatments that worked for you before but don't have the risk of peroxide damage.

Phalaenopsis
April 14th, 2012, 03:09 AM
Anje: No, I had no luck with SMTs, I just liked the effect honey in my conditioner. But that was already when I was trying to lighten it. I tried SMTs though, with molasses syrup, but it didn't work for me.

I'm not sure, but I think the real bleaching damage was done when I really followed the recipe from the Honey thread, using water, honey and a bit of coconut oil and really let it sit for an hour before applying.

Lumilou
April 14th, 2012, 08:31 AM
I think I have a similar problem, and have had to go back to cones because the peroxide increased tangling majorly.

Although I have to admit I eventually gave up on honey and ended up bleaching my hair :eek: because I felt people were looking at my grey hair whenever I talked to them!!

I just had an idea while reading some posts about deep conditioning that maybe you could try - this sounds really quite gross - massaging fresh avocado into your hair, if you have them where you're at, because I tried this and I guess the oil and whatever vitamins are in the avo are absorbed easily.

I didn't leave it on too long as it started to feel crispy.

I can't remember if I just rinsed it out or conditioned as well as I had a time of COing and a time of water only and I didn't keep any hair logs...

Don't know if there's any other posts on it but I have bought a conditioner with avocado oil as a main ingredient once for moisturising.

Good luck for avoiding a big cut!
Hope I've helped!

Silverbrumby
April 14th, 2012, 09:30 AM
I just wanted to ask, how is the new growth thats come in after the damage?

Anywhere
April 14th, 2012, 09:52 AM
might as well just use Color oops... I agree with Spidermom, peroxide is peroxide, no matter the source...

Color oops doesn't have peroxide. It doesn't lighten hair, it just removes dye. Just for clarification

It's ingredients from my extra strength box are: Part 1: Deionized water, Sodium hydrosulfite, fragrance, polysorbate-80, hydroxyethycellulose, cocamidopropyl, hydrosultaine
Part 2: Deionized water, citric acid, cocamidopropyl hydroxysultaine, xanthan gum.

See? No peroxide there. :flower:

Vanilla
April 14th, 2012, 10:06 AM
Have you tried the summer blend panacea? It doesn't have honey in it and also has some protien. Maybe that may help your hair?

I do see the damage as well.

Phalaenopsis
April 14th, 2012, 12:45 PM
Lumilou: yeah, I did that too sometimes, my hair loves it, so I just bought avocado oil, works wonders too and a lot less of a mess :p I even used to make avocado with a tablespoon of honey to make it more smooth. I think I'm just really afraid of damaging my hair with honey now, even though it probably is fine when you don't mix it with water and stuff to get the peroxide kicking in.


I just wanted to ask, how is the new growth thats come in after the damage?
I had damage, but no breakage from the roots, I think at least. If I have new growth, it would be because I'm still kind of suffering from hair loss.


Have you tried the summer blend panacea? It doesn't have honey in it and also has some protien. Maybe that may help your hair?

I do see the damage as well.
I use the original panacea salve. Somehow the honey in it doesn't worry me, since it's not in a water environment there.


I'm glad most of you people see the damage. You have no idea how misunderstood I felt for almost a whole year, but I was also a bit ashamed to show the pictures. I really miss my smooth hair.

juliaxena
April 14th, 2012, 01:28 PM
OMG I am so sorry. I tried to get my hair lighter with honey too, I didn't see any effect (colorwise, except my hair felt a litle dry, but that went away) but I hope it won't show in a year and set me back another few years in growing out damage.

cheetahfast
April 14th, 2012, 01:49 PM
I remember once reading your siggy and wanting to ask about honey damage, but I felt it would be intrusive.

Well, wow. I see it too. I had no clue it could happen.
Though I also think peroxide is peroxide and I would rather use it than honey which takes a while and may not work.

Coconut oil does wonders for my (naturally) dry hair. I too use the AO honeysuckle conditioner. What my hair really likes is a nice oiling the day before washing. I apply from the ears down, a mild about of coconut oil and then braid my hair into a bun (FYI my hair is not soaking or dripping, I do not over apply oil). It usually soaks it up by the next day and after washing feels silky. I almost always have oil on my ends.

pepperminttea
April 15th, 2012, 03:35 PM
I remember once reading your siggy and wanting to ask about honey damage, but I felt it would be intrusive.

Same. I'm glad you started this thread, Phal. I can see the difference too, but I just wanted to say, though I can see why you'd be unhappy with the change - your hair is still beautiful. Very much so. :flower:

julliams
April 15th, 2012, 07:24 PM
I can see a difference too. Before it seemed very glossy and silky and now the texture is actually very much like mine. It would be so interesting to get your hair under a microscope and see what has changed.

I was getting lazy and not nuking my SMT's before using them and I am certain that my hair got lighter as a result. But given that my texture makes it always look on the dry side, I never noticed damage to mine - but it could well be there.

I guess the good news is that it's only damaged the hair that is currently on your head and not all the hair that is to come, so each month will bring that gorgeous shiney hair back in.

laurarvt
April 15th, 2012, 11:19 PM
My hair was damaged from honey too. It was actually my husband who told me to stop doing it, that it looked like it was messing my hair up.

I'm mostly annoyed with myself that I had so much faith in the honey thread that it was absolutely 100% not damaging!

Live and learn though. You still have beautiful hair!

Phalaenopsis
April 16th, 2012, 03:51 AM
I remember once reading your siggy and wanting to ask about honey damage, but I felt it would be intrusive.

Same. I'm glad you started this thread, Phal. I can see the difference too, but I just wanted to say, though I can see why you'd be unhappy with the change - your hair is still beautiful. Very much so. :flower:
Oh, you girls could have asked :) It would be silly to put something in your signature that you don't want people to know about or ask about, I think.

@Pepperminttea: Thank you, that's sweet. I have been on the verge of tears though. My hair was so easy to take care of, except the excessive tangling because it's so fine. The thing that hurts the most is that it will take years to have healthy hip length hair again. I'll probably be 30 by then :( I don't have a lot of physical features I can be proud of, but my hair was one of them.




I guess the good news is that it's only damaged the hair that is currently on your head and not all the hair that is to come, so each month will bring that gorgeous shiney hair back in.
Not exactly, since I've been very ill *sigh* But we'll get there eventually!



I'm mostly annoyed with myself that I had so much faith in the honey thread that it was absolutely 100% not damaging!

THIS! I'm also very annoyed with myself because of that.

laurarvt
April 16th, 2012, 08:50 AM
I also think that the damage is going to be much more evident on fine hair like ours:.....I would think that someone with coarser or curly hair may not notice it as much.

Phalaenopsis
April 16th, 2012, 04:10 PM
I also think that the damage is going to be much more evident on fine hair like ours:.....I would think that someone with coarser or curly hair may not notice it as much.
Exactly! My fine hair gets sooo easily damaged. I'm staying far far away from any colouring, bleaching or whatever from now on.

I just ordered the Rosa Mosqueta conditioner again. I think I figured out a routine to keep my hair okay-ish (like in the last pic) instead of superdry. If anyone is interested, I'll be happy to share.

I think I've already said it, but it feels so good to be acknowledged. Sometimes I started thinking it was just in my head and that I was overreacting.

lapushka
April 16th, 2012, 05:03 PM
I think I've already said it, but it feels so good to be acknowledged. Sometimes I started thinking it was just in my head and that I was overreacting.

:grouphug: Heads up, it'll only get better from here. :)

mzBANGBANG
April 16th, 2012, 05:54 PM
I wanted to thank you for this thread because it saved me from potential damage. I was originally going to do some honey lightening but after reading this I decided to try a different method (coating hair in oil and then using a lightener that was only a couple shades lighter than my natural color). It actually worked very well and left me with little damage. I began questioning the honey originally because to me peroxide is peroxide whether it comes from a hair product or something in your kitchen cupboards.

Thanks again. I hope you've found a recovery routine that works for your hair, I'm sure with some tlc you'll be able to fix it. :)

Cyndeigh
April 16th, 2012, 06:13 PM
Phal, thanks for staring this thread. I did the honey treatment once, but will not do it again!! I have very fine hair that breaks easily. I am interested in your routine. Will you post it?
I Think your hair is gorgeous, but understand the frustration!! I tried to do an Indian herb mask, that everyone on that thread was raving about, and half my hair fell out!! Shriek!!

cheetahfast
April 17th, 2012, 05:30 AM
Oh, you girls could have asked :) It would be silly to put something in your signature that you don't want people to know about or ask about, I think.

I agree, I guess since damage is a four letter word around here it felt strange to ask about it.

MinderMutsig
April 17th, 2012, 06:48 AM
I know I read somewhere that a heavy coconut oiling before using dye can prevent damage. I wonder if this is also true for using peroxide. I'm not going to risk my hair to find out though.

Sorry this damaged your hair. I definitely also see a difference in texture in your before and after pictures although I must say it doesn't look bad in the after photos by any stretch of the imagination. I understand you're not happy with it though because you know it could be so much better.

Phalaenopsis
April 18th, 2012, 03:46 AM
Phal, thanks for staring this thread. I did the honey treatment once, but will not do it again!! I have very fine hair that breaks easily. I am interested in your routine. Will you post it?
I Think your hair is gorgeous, but understand the frustration!! I tried to do an Indian herb mask, that everyone on that thread was raving about, and half my hair fell out!! Shriek!!

Well, what I discovered that works for me is first of all, using a gentle shampoo (no sulfates and for dry hair) and don't wash as often as I would like, even though I have one greasy head :p I noticed when I waited at least 3 days to wash again, my hair recovered a bit after 2 weeks or so. And I ALWAYS oil my hair now the night before washing. I used coconut oil and avocado oil. I switched between those two and a deep treatment with the Rosa Mosqueta conditioner from Aubrey or the GPB conditioner from the same brand. So it was always coconut oil/ avocado oil/ deep treatment / coconut oil / avocado oil... and so on. And I swear by the Aubrey Honeysuckle rose conditioner. It's so heavy and moisturizing. And then I switch it up with the GPB conditioner to give it more protein. When I do the deep treatment I use the Avalon Organics extra moisturizing conditioner afterwards, because it's still really nourishing but a tad lighter than the Honeysucklerose conditioner, since I already did a deep treatment.

Whenever I felt my hair was still getting dry, I misted it with some water and then put some leave-in in it, to then, put it up. I noticed that damp bunning helped.

I had neglected this routine and I instantly see the difference in my hair. I have to keep it moisturized 24/7 and give it some protein on a regular basis. It's a lot of work to be honest, at least compared to my old routine, but it helped so much, I'm going back to it, even though it's annoying to always have to order conditioners from the US and the Rosa mosqueta conditioner is quite expensive, especially when you use it as a deep treatment :(

Bianca
April 18th, 2012, 04:25 AM
I have to say, its not really a big mystery, that you would get damage from putting something with peroxide on your hair. Peroxide is peroxide.

Cyndeigh
April 18th, 2012, 02:27 PM
Well, what I discovered that works for me is first of all, using a gentle shampoo (no sulfates and for dry hair) and don't wash as often as I would like, even though I have one greasy head :p I noticed when I waited at least 3 days to wash again, my hair recovered a bit after 2 weeks or so. And I ALWAYS oil my hair now the night before washing. I used coconut oil and avocado oil. I switched between those two and a deep treatment with the Rosa Mosqueta conditioner from Aubrey or the GPB conditioner from the same brand. So it was always coconut oil/ avocado oil/ deep treatment / coconut oil / avocado oil... and so on. And I swear by the Aubrey Honeysuckle rose conditioner. It's so heavy and moisturizing. And then I switch it up with the GPB conditioner to give it more protein. When I do the deep treatment I use the Avalon Organics extra moisturizing conditioner afterwards, because it's still really nourishing but a tad lighter than the Honeysucklerose conditioner, since I already did a deep treatment.

Whenever I felt my hair was still getting dry, I misted it with some water and then put some leave-in in it, to then, put it up. I noticed that damp bunning helped.

I had neglected this routine and I instantly see the difference in my hair. I have to keep it moisturized 24/7 and give it some protein on a regular basis. It's a lot of work to be honest, at least compared to my old routine, but it helped so much, I'm going back to it, even though it's annoying to always have to order conditioners from the US and the Rosa mosqueta conditioner is quite expensive, especially when you use it as a deep treatment :(

Thank you! I am going to give your routine a go. I have never tried those conditioners, but I see them mentioned in other threads I haunt, so will give them a go.
Something so beautiful as your hair is a lot of work, and it shows. I am willing to put the time into my *sigh* chin length future BSL hair!

palaeoqueen
April 18th, 2012, 02:53 PM
I can see the difference in the pictures but if it's any consolation you still have beautiful hair :) I wouldn't have realised there was damage if I'd only seen the "after" pictures. I suppose this is one of the cool things about LHC, day to day I rarely see beautiful, healthy long hair and now I'm starting to realise just how good hair can look after seeing all the amazing hair pictures on here.

pepperminttea
April 18th, 2012, 03:33 PM
I have to say, its not really a big mystery, that you would get damage from putting something with peroxide on your hair. Peroxide is peroxide.

True, but there's such a lack of information out there about this. Some believe honey lightening is nonsense, that honey can't lighten hair at all; others think it can but it's entirely risk-free and non-damaging. Can you imagine if you tried this having only been told it was non-damaging and this happened to you? Especially on the hair lengths round these parts, that is a lot of growing out time. I don't know about you but I would be really devastated.

Phalaenopsis
April 19th, 2012, 12:58 PM
Thank you! I am going to give your routine a go. I have never tried those conditioners, but I see them mentioned in other threads I haunt, so will give them a go.
Something so beautiful as your hair is a lot of work, and it shows. I am willing to put the time into my *sigh* chin length future BSL hair!
Be careful, I don't know how fine your hair exactly is, those aubrey conditioners are really heavy duty stuff! Perfect for any kind of bleached hair though.

Today I got a basic shampoo from my chemister, he made one sulfate free for himself and normally doesn't sell it, but I've know him a long time, so I got to try it. I really hope it's soft for my hair.

Cyndeigh
April 19th, 2012, 09:49 PM
Be careful, I don't know how fine your hair exactly is, those aubrey conditioners are really heavy duty stuff! Perfect for any kind of bleached hair though.

Today I got a basic shampoo from my chemister, he made one sulfate free for himself and normally doesn't sell it, but I've know him a long time, so I got to try it. I really hope it's soft for my hair.

Thanks. My hair is really fine, but dry. I will have to try the conditioners, but I know the oils are to heavy. I can only handle jojoba oil and camellia oil. With your beautiful hair as inspiration I will try your routine!!

I hope you like the new shampoo.

juliaxena
April 19th, 2012, 11:28 PM
This is all very upsetting. Do you guys think that since I had no lightening effect, the honey I used did not have enough peroxide to do any damage? My hair was dry afterward, but my conditioner did fix it. Maybe it was not so much dry as sticky feeling and hard to wash.

OP I am so sorry, you do have gorgeous hair though.

earthnut
April 20th, 2012, 01:20 PM
One thing that no-one has mentioned, it that the damage may not have been caused by any bleaching effect from the honey, but because honey is a humectant. Whether or not honey contains any peroxide is a matter of debate, but there is no debate that honey is an effective humectant!

Humectants pull moisture from the air, and are a type of moisturizer. However, whether they are good for a particular person depends on their hair type and the kind of climate they live in. Too much or too little humidity in the air can make a humectant cause frizz. See this page for more info on humectants and humidity. (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-humidity-humectants-and-hair)

Using an occlusive moisturizer while the hair is moist would probably help tame the frizz. Occlusives coat and weigh down the hair shaft. Occlusives include lanolin, mineral oil, silicones, beeswax, and canola oil.

Phalaenopsis
April 20th, 2012, 02:17 PM
It was because of the peroxide effect, since my hair also got lighter :)

earthnut
April 20th, 2012, 02:21 PM
It was because of the peroxide effect, since my hair also got lighter :)

The part of honey that caused the damage is not necessarily the same part of honey that caused the lightening.

sfgirl
April 21st, 2012, 08:07 PM
I think sometimes too much of a good thing can be a bad thing, and that some stuff that your hair likes might damage another's hair. I know my BBB helps protect my hair by distributing sebum and oils, but for a 3a/3b, the BBB would probably cause damage. Or some people can have massive shedding with CO to the point they have to classify their hair differently, while some people use CO with mass success and can get their hair longer and healthier because of it. Knowing going into anything that it might damage your hair is good, because you can stop at the first sign of damage

FrozenBritannia
April 21st, 2012, 08:17 PM
Phal have you tried mixing some oil in with your shampoo? If your hair likes avacado oil than it might work to mix a tsp or two into the bottle. I have just done it with baby and rose hip oil and some rose water (to dilute the shampoo) and I love how it made my hair feel. Like yours my hair is very fine, so it is just a thought. :)

Phalaenopsis
April 22nd, 2012, 04:28 AM
Phal have you tried mixing some oil in with your shampoo? If your hair likes avacado oil than it might work to mix a tsp or two into the bottle. I have just done it with baby and rose hip oil and some rose water (to dilute the shampoo) and I love how it made my hair feel. Like yours my hair is very fine, so it is just a thought. :)

I have thought about mixing oil into my shampoo, but I wonder what effect it will have when I already oil my hair the night before washing?
The problem is also: my hair is dry, my scalp definitely isn't. It's getting more noticeable since I've grown out 4 inches of hair. So the hair on my scalp isn't so dry anymore like it used to be, since it's fairly healthy hair. (I say fairly, because I've been ill all the time I've been growing out)

I'm considering clarifying too, maybe it will freshen things up and will make my hair more open to nourishment again.

I'm having quite a hard time with it, more and more. Yesterday a friend took some pictures and one is a close up of the length, my god how noticeable the damage is there. Makes me want to get a chin length bob and just start all over again.

FrozenBritannia
April 22nd, 2012, 10:19 AM
I have thought about mixing oil into my shampoo, but I wonder what effect it will have when I already oil my hair the night before washing?
The problem is also: my hair is dry, my scalp definitely isn't. It's getting more noticeable since I've grown out 4 inches of hair. So the hair on my scalp isn't so dry anymore like it used to be, since it's fairly healthy hair. (I say fairly, because I've been ill all the time I've been growing out)

I'm considering clarifying too, maybe it will freshen things up and will make my hair more open to nourishment again.

I'm having quite a hard time with it, more and more. Yesterday a friend took some pictures and one is a close up of the length, my god how noticeable the damage is there. Makes me want to get a chin length bob and just start all over again.

Well, oil cleans oil, so it might be worth a try? Only one way to find out!

Katze
April 22nd, 2012, 12:05 PM
Not a sufferer, just a person who thinks honey lightning is overrated, it didn't do a thing to my hair. It's good that you speak up, not everybody has had great experiences.

I am another person who cannot be convinced of the honey theory. If it bleaches, how come YEARS of honey use on face and hair have not ever bleached my dark towels or clothing?

There are no other sources for this theory on the internet other than this site. That alone should make critically-thinking people, um, think critically!

And Phal, your hair is actually really gorgeous in the pics. I'm sorry you are so dissatisfied with it and know what it feels like to be unhappy about your hair, but all I can see in the pics is long, thick, beautiful hair that looks very, very different under different lighting. :flower:


One thing that no-one has mentioned, it that the damage may not have been caused by any bleaching effect from the honey, but because honey is a humectant. Whether or not honey contains any peroxide is a matter of debate, but there is no debate that honey is an effective humectant!

Humectants pull moisture from the air, and are a type of moisturizer. However, whether they are good for a particular person depends on their hair type and the kind of climate they live in. Too much or too little humidity in the air can make a humectant cause frizz. See this page for more info on humectants and humidity. (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-humidity-humectants-and-hair)

Using an occlusive moisturizer while the hair is moist would probably help tame the frizz. Occlusives coat and weigh down the hair shaft. Occlusives include lanolin, mineral oil, silicones, beeswax, and canola oil.

I wonder about this too. Is your hair just frizzier? It really doesn't *look* damaged in the pics, though I know what it's like to hear your hair looks good in pics when you are dissatisfied with it.

Could it be that your hair has just changed from hormones, weather, etc? I know mine changes a lot, radically, from week to week, at different times of the month, pregnancy, age, etc. I know you are a real hair guru, and I am not - my hair is not long :) - but could something like this be happening, and not really damage per se?

BeckyAH
April 22nd, 2012, 12:35 PM
...I am completely bemused by how hard people are trying to say 'it's not honey's fault!' and 'honey doesn't lighten hair!'

A-) Honey contains everything needed to make PEROXIDE - not bleach. The science is sound. Do some research, folks.

B-) They're faced with pictures of hair that has changed shades *drastically* and altered the condition obviously.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, it seems.

Phalaenopsis
April 22nd, 2012, 12:51 PM
I was really hoping this could be a support thread for people who also suffer from this. I already edited my first post to add that it's not to discuss wether it does or does not damage, when I just had started the thread.

It's for support, please, is that so awful to ask?

BeckyAH
April 22nd, 2012, 01:36 PM
It's for support, please, is that so awful to ask?

No. It's not.

sfgirl
April 22nd, 2012, 04:56 PM
I don't think we're in denial that it can possibly cause some damage. But rather than assuming it was because of lightening, we can look at all the options. I believe only about two people have reported damage, so we're just trying to get to the root of the cause.
Personally, I never see a huge difference with honey lightening. It always seems the people that have success with it are the blonettes, who already have hair that almost changes colors. I'm not saying it doesn't damage hair. I just don't think any lightening that's happening is what's damaging your hair.
But am I in denial? No. I use actual peroxide on my hair. Phal's hair still looks better and more beautiful than people who use actual peroxide and have damage from that. Even if the small amount of peroxide is damaging, I think people should understand that it is never going to be even near the damage you get from actual bleach. Also, any color change you do, natural or not, will affect the texture. Lightening, henna, deposit dyes, your hair is going to feel different than virgin hair.

lapushka
April 22nd, 2012, 05:04 PM
Even if the small amount of peroxide is damaging, I think people should understand that it is never going to be even near the damage you get from actual bleach. Also, any color change you do, natural or not, will affect the texture. Lightening, henna, deposit dyes, your hair is going to feel different than virgin hair.

QFT! :cool:

Cyndeigh
April 22nd, 2012, 05:23 PM
I was really hoping this could be a support thread for people who also suffer from this. I already edited my first post to add that it's not to discuss wether it does or does not damage, when I just had started the thread.

It's for support, please, is that so awful to ask?

Well said.

afu
April 22nd, 2012, 05:24 PM
it is true that any amount of peroxide is going to put your hair at risk of damage, so maybe with that said - people who are lookig at honey lightening should take the same precautions as they might with actual chemical peroxide. To avoid damage you need to control free radicals - this can be done by applying coconut oil at least an hour before bleach treatment (thank you ktani for this btw). Even using harsh chemical peroxide this protects my hair really well and i would recommend it to anyone colouring or bleaching their hair.

In terms of support, again maybe look at advice given to those who have chemical bleach damage. I have bleach and heat damage on my lengths and my best advice would be to try CO and then coconut oil on damp hair with a little conditoner added.

Aeltt
April 22nd, 2012, 05:26 PM
I also tried honey once and my ends felt really dry (straw like) after the treatment. Not awfully damaged, but still..
I guess it can't work for everyone.

earthnut
April 23rd, 2012, 12:12 AM
According to this article (http://journal.scconline.org//pdf/cc2003/cc054n02/p00175-p00192.pdf), coconut is very protective of hair, before or after damage, compared to mineral oil or sunflower oil.

Phalaenopsis
April 27th, 2012, 04:19 AM
I'm going to try out ACV rinses again to smooth down my hair and hopefully making it more manageable again (more manageable = less handling damage).

Cyndeigh
May 1st, 2012, 08:37 PM
My hair LOVES ACV rinses. I also have done two catnip rinses, and my hair really likes those too.:cheese:
I think you hair is beautiful, but so understand your frustration.

lolot
May 1st, 2012, 09:06 PM
Honestly i cant see any damage in your hair, the first photo is old, the 2 your hair looks brushed, the 3 and 4 look like is unbrushed, in 5 the flash is going straight to your hair it even show the line of it, and the last one, looks really pretty and shinny to me, i think you have very beautiful hair and i understand you take care of it, but i dont think is damaged at all, maybe your being a bit perfectionist,
i have been using honey for the last 6 months or more and it have lighted my ends that were dyed before but my virgin hair hasnt had any lighting at all, do you have any type of color treatment like dye or henna before honey?

BeckyAH
May 1st, 2012, 10:06 PM
Honestly i cant see any damage in your hair, the first photo is old, the 2 your hair looks brushed, the 3 and 4 look like is unbrushed, in 5 the flash is going straight to your hair it even show the line of it, and the last one, looks really pretty and shinny to me, i think you have very beautiful hair and i understand you take care of it, but i dont think is damaged at all, maybe your being a bit perfectionist,
i have been using honey for the last 6 months or more and it have lighted my ends that were dyed before but my virgin hair hasnt had any lighting at all, do you have any type of color treatment like dye or henna before honey?

It is her hair. She knows better than you, from a photograph, if it is damaged or not. You certainly don't get to call her a perfectionist and a liar because you don't see (From photographs) what she lives with. Especially so when she has said repeatedly, through this thread, that she does not want to have to constantly justify that yes, honey did it, no she hasn't hennaed or dyed her hair, and all she wants is some support. You clearly read the thread to find the pictures. And then decided to discount her wishes.

Not okay.

Phalaenopsis
May 6th, 2012, 04:39 PM
Honestly i cant see any damage in your hair, the first photo is old, the 2 your hair looks brushed, the 3 and 4 look like is unbrushed, in 5 the flash is going straight to your hair it even show the line of it, and the last one, looks really pretty and shinny to me, i think you have very beautiful hair and i understand you take care of it, but i dont think is damaged at all, maybe your being a bit perfectionist,
i have been using honey for the last 6 months or more and it have lighted my ends that were dyed before but my virgin hair hasnt had any lighting at all, do you have any type of color treatment like dye or henna before honey?

Well that's the damage, it's perfectly brushed, but it looks unbrushed... And the last one, like I said it took me a lot of work to get it like that and the next day it was already drier again.

I am a perfectionist in real life, but this is nothing perfectionist. Nature had given me very straight hair, so on it's own it didn't take a lot of effort to take care of it. It was smooth, straight and silky on its own, thanks to the texture (fine and straight). So yes, I miss that hair. My normal hair was like that. And now suddenly I have to nuke it with oils, heavy conditioners and such to get a bit of that glossiness back for one day, like in the last pic. And if you look close enough, you see I still have some frizz going on there, compared to the previous picks where it looks "brushed.

I wasn't going to show this picture, because I am so embarrassed and saddened about it. But I hope people will understand better then, I thought the previous pictures already were obvious enough.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/naturalgirl/IMG_7500-2.jpg

Phalaenopsis
May 6th, 2012, 04:41 PM
Oh, I wanted to add for other honey bleach sufferers out there, that I had succes with a yoghurt deep treatment! It gave back some of the smoothness and shine. I'm going to try fresh cheese next, because it contains double the amount of protein and fat

spidermom
May 6th, 2012, 05:02 PM
How are you going to apply cheese to hair?

blondie9912
May 6th, 2012, 05:05 PM
Oh, I wanted to add for other honey bleach sufferers out there, that I had succes with a yoghurt deep treatment! It gave back some of the smoothness and shine. I'm going to try fresh cheese next, because it contains double the amount of protein and fat

A fresh take on the LHC dancing cheese! ;)

lapushka
May 6th, 2012, 05:10 PM
I think maybe she means cottage cheese. :)

lolot
May 6th, 2012, 05:18 PM
It is her hair. She knows better than you, from a photograph, if it is damaged or not. You certainly don't get to call her a perfectionist and a liar because you don't see (From photographs) what she lives with. Especially so when she has said repeatedly, through this thread, that she does not want to have to constantly justify that yes, honey did it, no she hasn't hennaed or dyed her hair, and all she wants is some support. You clearly read the thread to find the pictures. And then decided to discount her wishes.

Not okay.

ok, i was asking her about perfectionism because her hair is absolutely beautiful as i said before, thinking that probably she is being to hard to herself, but i never said she was a liar.
I have studied light and photography thats why i always notice that in the way light bounce to an object it can get diferent look of it.

Phalaenopsis im not as expert as other lhc users, i think your hair is still very beautiful as it is and i hope you recover the bright of it, i dont know what to advice, good luck

LadyHazel
May 7th, 2012, 02:04 AM
You know what, I don't have perfect hair and I'm not perfect but I'm honest and there's a difference. To me it doesn't just look like a lack of brushing it looks like damage (frizziness, dry) and its a real shame if you ever need to talk I am here as I have been through the trauma of peroxide damage and having to quite literally chop it all off from classic- do not that if you can avoid it but cut regularly (not drastically) then do. From personal experience, hot oils will make your hair frizzier and what you need is a reconstructor followed by a moisture treatment heavily ladden with esters etc such as matrix biolage ultra hydrating balm until a shower cap for a few hours. Once hair is damp (not wet or dry) apply a moisture sealing serum (I use an anti-breakage smoothing serum). If you do not use silicones I cannot recommend much as I swear by them but stay strong you'll pull through after all you've got the gift of long hair so work it! X :D

Phalaenopsis
May 7th, 2012, 02:27 AM
How are you going to apply cheese to hair?
I looked up the translation for soft curd cheese, and it also said fresh cheese. Apparently not the right translation :p

florenonite
May 7th, 2012, 05:01 AM
I looked up the translation for soft curd cheese, and it also said fresh cheese. Apparently not the right translation :p

I think it's what we'd call cottage cheese, as lapushka said :)

Phalaenopsis
May 7th, 2012, 05:20 AM
I think it's what we'd call cottage cheese, as lapushka said :)

Aha, okay ^^ Thank you both. Learned something again :grin:

LadyHazel
May 7th, 2012, 08:18 AM
Heya I sent that old post without actually asking - how long did you leave the honey on for and did you mix it with anything else? X

wendylai
May 7th, 2012, 09:23 AM
Maybe this is too late, but phalanenos (sorry if I miss-spell..) did you ever think, as I read somewhere that you desperately wanted to first bleach your hair blonde, now as you have already in a way ruined it (though I think it still looks fabulous :) ) you could actually see the good in bad... and get it bleached properly to the shade of blonde you originally wanted to?

And then if you think itäs too damaged you could cut it off (as you now already think sometimes..?)

Anyways... just a thought. I hope you are feeling better about the whole thing already. The damage doesnt look dramatic to me, but you know your hair best.

Phalaenopsis
May 7th, 2012, 03:00 PM
Heya I sent that old post without actually asking - how long did you leave the honey on for and did you mix it with anything else? X

At first I just did it with conditioner, leaving on for an hour. Then I did it with water, coconut oil and cinnamon.

Phalaenopsis
May 7th, 2012, 03:01 PM
Maybe this is too late, but phalanenos (sorry if I miss-spell..) did you ever think, as I read somewhere that you desperately wanted to first bleach your hair blonde, now as you have already in a way ruined it (though I think it still looks fabulous :) ) you could actually see the good in bad... and get it bleached properly to the shade of blonde you originally wanted to?

And then if you think itäs too damaged you could cut it off (as you now already think sometimes..?)

Anyways... just a thought. I hope you are feeling better about the whole thing already. The damage doesnt look dramatic to me, but you know your hair best.
No, I'm just going to grow it out now. It's been a year, so if I bleach it, then I'm back to square one :)

LadyHazel
May 7th, 2012, 04:25 PM
DO NOT DO THAT!! From personal experience!! The first time I bleached my hair I thought: oh well its damaged now and did it a dozen times over a short period of time + dying it was falling out in clumps and oh my I was crying had to cut it...
Just an hour ? Such little time to do the damage and many years to reverse it. Your hair must be very delicate to say the least I am so glad because before I knew that honey contained peroxide I tried mashing it with avocado I left it in my hair for like ten seconds and the smell was enough to make me wash it off right away anyway (PHEW).

Phalaenopsis
May 7th, 2012, 04:53 PM
Just an hour ? Such little time to do the damage and many years to reverse it. Your hair must be very delicate to say the least I am so glad because before I knew that honey contained peroxide I tried mashing it with avocado I left it in my hair for like ten seconds and the smell was enough to make me wash it off right away anyway (PHEW).

Yes an hour, but done multiple times ofcourse :)
My hair is very delicate, it's very fine and straight, which naturally gives it shine and silkiness, but ofcourse there's a downside, it's damaged quite easily.

I loved the avocado mask with honey :) I actually like the scent of a fresh avocado ^^ (the extra virgin oil on the other hand STINKS, lol) Now I'm just very paranoid about honey and I'm going to do an avocado mask with agave nectar/syrup. Somehow my hair really digs avocados/avocado oil. My best friend is crazy about the mask too, ever since I recommended it to her. But each hair (and nose) is different, eh? ^^

Charlotte:)
May 7th, 2012, 05:51 PM
Huh... I've never heard of this. I lighten my hair with honey all the time, and it makes mine shinier, softer, and healthier. I'm so sorry you had a bad experience with this :(

Indigostreams
May 7th, 2012, 06:15 PM
So wouldn't this mean that SMTs could be DAMAGING to hair? I've been doing a few the past week, and my hair has been super frizzy. It's also been humid here though. :/

BeckyAH
May 7th, 2012, 06:16 PM
So wouldn't this mean that SMTs could be DAMAGING to hair? I've been doing a few the past week, and my hair has been super frizzy. It's also been humid here though. :/

No. SMTs are microwaved, which destroys the peroxide.

sfgirl
May 7th, 2012, 08:42 PM
Well since you're trimming off the honey lightening damage, maybe have some fun with curling irons!!! And hairspray and all those other naughty things. ;)

LadyHazel
May 8th, 2012, 05:44 AM
Your hair is beautiful naturally I don't believe in dyes or lightening anymore, because they almost always end in disaster and then you have ugly re-growth, over-lapping processing damage.

Indigostreams
May 8th, 2012, 11:07 AM
No. SMTs are microwaved, which destroys the peroxide. OK, sounds good.

Vanilla
May 16th, 2012, 09:18 PM
Phal, I was just thinking, have you tried cassia yet? It really helped to make my hair shiny and soft and did similar things to protein to help repair past damage to my hair.