Listerine for Scalp

[Capybara]

I've posted before about my scalp problems. I have psoriasis, and it's hardest to treat on my scalp. I have had prescription creams, tgel shampoo, and ACV rinses help, but the problem always seemed to come back.

Anyways, I recently saw a video pop up on my feed on YouTube. A girl demonstrated how to fight dandruff using Listerine. I decided to give it a shot.

I know we are supposed to wait 6 weeks before deciding whether something works for us or not, so I'm going to keep tracking this. Right now, after one week, I can honestly say that my scalp is more flake-free than I can ever remember it being. I am pleased.

My routine:

Spray a few tablespoons of original Listerine (it's the yellow one) on scalp. Concentrate on problem areas. Make sure to avoid hair as much as possible, because Listerine contains alcohol.

Massage the Listerine into the scalp. If any area needs more, spray until its all evenly covered. Again, avoid hair as much as possible.

Twist hair up into a top knot and wait 20-30 minutes.

Rinse upside down, while holding the length out of the way, for 3 mins. I do this so the alcohol has even less chance of contacting my length.

Wash as usual. (lately, I've been using Tresemme naturals, but the shampoo/conditioner shouldn't make a difference.)

I do notice a minty fragrance afterwards. It goes away in a few hours. When my scalp is soaking in the Listerine, the alcohol/mint is very strong, but I am not bothered by it. It also does sting/tingle a bit on any areas of broken skin, but overall is really relaxing. I think mint is good for calming your nerves :)

Anyways, I just wanted to post this, just in case anyone has any tips (is it safe?) or if anyone else wants to try. Hope it helps someone like it helped me!

[summerstarlet]

I haven't tried this but I follow Andrea too! I would think that the listerine would be very harsh for your scalp but if it works go for it! Do you notice anymore shedding than usual?

[Kittyxx]

I've used listerine to clear up skin issues before - I guess the alcohol kills bacteria or something
However it can also be very drying so using it too much or in too strong a stength might cause more flakiness [just a guess - not a proffesional here]

[Capybara]

I enjoy her videos a lot - we're definitely different styles, but it's great to get new ideas!

I haven't been shedding more than usual, but again, it's only been one week. I've used some pretty powerful prescription medications on my scalp/body before because of this, so I figured that an OTC product would be safe to try.

I do mostly concentrate it on my nape area. Some areas of my scalp are relatively psoriasis free, so I'm not worrying about those just yet. Better safe than sorry eh!

[Covet]

That sounds quite interesting but I'd be too scared to try this myself! I was thinking of trying ACV for my dandruff but I'm not quite sure about how I should dilute it and if it will be harsh on the hair.

Have you tried putting the Listerine into a colour applicator bottle instead? I'd imagine it would be much easier to avoid getting it on the hair this way.

[Capybara]

@Covet: Good idea! I bought a small spray bottle from the drug store, and decant a little Listerine into it to spray. It has an adjustable nozzle so I can control how much comes out with each squeeze too. :)

ACV worked for me, but I found the ratio a little tricky. I'm more partial to minty smells than vinegar, as well.

[pepperminttea]

This is really intriguing. I admit when I saw the thread title I thought "Are you mad?!" but now I'm tempted to give it a try. I'm always looking for something that will shut my scalp psoriasis up, and I'm smack bang in the middle of a flare up at the moment too. I don't suppose you could give a link for the video? :)

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but: Do you use it straight, not diluted at all? Is the spray application key? I don't have a spray bottle hanging around, would applying it another way work? Also, I don't think a yellow original Listerine is available here. Do you think Cool Mint would work? Here's the ingredients:


Aqua, Alcohol, Sorbitol, Poloxamer 407, Benzoic Acid, Sodium Saccharin, Eucalyptol, Aroma, Methyl Salicylate, Thymol, Menthol, Sodium Benzoate, CI 42053.

[pelicano]

I've heard this myself. I think the reason it works is because listerine is very acidic, like vinegar. Which is a reason to be careful of - ie it might be a bit too acidic for hair.

[pelicano]

Do you use it straight, not diluted at all? Also, is the spray application key? I don't have a spray bottle hanging around, would applying it another way work? Also, I don't think a yellow original Listerine is available here. Do you think Cool Mint would work? Here's the ingredients:

You can definitely get original listerine - from Boots, supermarkets etc. :)

[Amber_Maiden]

hmmm... Glad it works for you! I probably wouldn't try it because of the alcohol... and how harsh it might be.

[pepperminttea]

You can definitely get original listerine - from Boots, supermarkets etc. :)

Found it - wouldn't show up on Sainsbury's or Asda, but Tesco and Boots have it. Thanks! :)

[Capybara]

Hi Pepperminttea!

I've been using it undiluted, but that might not be the best idea. Perhaps diluted would be best.

The video is here: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_NBA8xrv4wM
Let me know if that works or not, I'm posting from my mobile :o

Glad to hear you found the right bottle :D

A quick search revealed the following comment threads/web pages that I found interesting:Listerine helps hair growth (http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=42;t=000221;p=0)
How to use Listerine for psoriasis (http://www.ehow.com/how_4425289_use-listerine-psoriasis.html)

[pepperminttea]

Hi Pepperminttea!

I've been using it undiluted, but that might not be the best idea. Perhaps diluted would be best.

The video is here: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_NBA8xrv4wM
Let me know if that works or not, I'm posting from my mobile :o

Glad to hear you found the right bottle :D

A quick search revealed the following comment threads/web pages that I found interesting:Listerine helps hair growth (http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=42;t=000221;p=0)
How to use Listerine for psoriasis (http://www.ehow.com/how_4425289_use-listerine-psoriasis.html)

Thanks for the links! The vid link did work, I just had the change the 'm' at the beginning of the URL to the usual 'www'. :)

One question (last one!) - how often do you do this? I wash my hair twice a week or thereabouts, I'm wondering if this needs to be an everyday thing to be effective.

I will have to buy some and experiment...!

[lacefrost]

I'm pretty tempted to try this myself. Also, thank you for reminding me about AC rinses. My hair (and scalp) loves them!

[Capybara]

To Pepperminttea: I've been washing my hair every 1 to 2 days, but that's what I've been doing lately regardless of the Listerine. I washed every 3-5 days up until a few months ago, when I had a reallllly bad breakout of psoriasis and wanted to combat it.

I think that you should stick to your regular routine :) That way, you'll know whether the Listerine alone works, and not the changed washing schedule that did/didn't make a difference.

[pepperminttea]

Thanks Capybara, good idea! :) I've found a spray bottle and cleaned it out, so once I buy some listerine I'm ready to go.

[pelicano]

Just because I felt like being a mad scientist, I just tested the ph of vinegar and also Listerine.

White vinegar - ph of about 2.5
Listerine - ph of about 4

So it's not as acidic as vinegar, but fairly acidic. Hope that helps. :)

[Capybara]

Good luck Pepperminttea! I can't wait to hear your results :)

Interesting, Pelicano! Thanks for testing that, it didn't even cross my mind! So since the scalp is acidic, I'd say it's safe to use in that respect?

[pepperminttea]

Just because I felt like being a mad scientist, I just tested the ph of vinegar and also Listerine.

White vinegar - ph of about 2.5
Listerine - ph of about 4

So it's not as acidic as vinegar, but fairly acidic. Hope that helps. :)

That's really interesting, thanks Pelicano. :) Cheeky to ask, but is apple cider vinegar the same pH as its white cousin?

[HintOfMint]

Just because I felt like being a mad scientist, I just tested the ph of vinegar and also Listerine.

White vinegar - ph of about 2.5
Listerine - ph of about 4

So it's not as acidic as vinegar, but fairly acidic. Hope that helps. :)

Maybe its the alcohol killing bacteria that exacerbated her scalp condition?

[pelicano]

That's really interesting, thanks Pelicano. :) Cheeky to ask, but is apple cider vinegar the same pH as its white cousin?

I don't have any to hand to test at the moment, but I think so.

[Capybara]

I don't have any to hand to test at the moment, but I think so.

I remember, in my first year Chemistry lab, we measured the pH and % by volume (or was it mass? Can't remember now) of acetic acid in different brands of white and apple cider vinegar. The ones we tested were the same.

[PixxieStix]

Just throwing this out there, but it's not actually the alcohol in the mouthwash that is doing any of the killing, the alcohol is used to preserve the essential oils Eucalyptol, Methyl salicylate, Thymol, and Menthol, which are the active ingredients that are bacteriostatic/bacteriocidal to oral microorganisms. The "burning" sensation experienced when using Listerine antiseptic comes from the Thymol and not the alcohol. I am not saying that the alcohol isn't possibly a beneficial contributing factor, but when used as an oral mouth rinse, it isn't what has a beneficial effect. I'm quite curious now as to whether or not rubbing alcohol would produce similar effects to Listerine, or if it's the EO's that are the "working party" so to speak for the scalp. *goes off to the Google*

[Mrsbaybeegurl]

Back in cosmetology school we used to do scalp treatments on each other. I always had what was called "oily scalp" those who had dry dandruff were treated with cholesterol treatment after having their scalp stimulated and those like me had Sea Breeze applied to our scalp. Sea breeze was a pretty harsh facial astringent that was slightly minty and would burn and tingle a bit but it helped, it also had alcohol in it but never dried my hair out...then again that was back when I was bleaching my hair, flat ironing it and had a perm so the Sea Breeze was the last of my worries lol

I'm wondering if listerine would have the same properties and be akin to the Sea Breeze treatment. I googled it and found a lot of people saying it works wonders on the scalp so I'm now tempted to try it myself!! If I give it a go, I will let you know what my experience is with it, thanks!

[sycamoreboutiqu]

All of this seems to reinforce the idea that dandruff and scalp issues (even when diagnosed as Psoriasis) may be more fungal or yeast in nature. I always noticed my scalp had no issues for a least a week after doing a box color root touch up and I suspect a lot of it had to do with the peroxide/ammonia combination killing anything that might have been present.

Bacteria could be an issue but it isn't as persistent and difficult to get rid of as is a fungal or a yeast colony. They seem to never go away (athletes foot once you get it is pretty much present forever - it just doesn't flare under dry conditions). The fact that our scalps tend to "flare" seems significant. Bacteria don't usually keep coming back in "flares" and unless you have a really dirty head they really need more favorable conditions to grow to numbers great enough to degrade your skin.

The ingredients Menthol and Eucalyptus would be significant factors I would suppose.

I recently have been doing some Tea Tree/Aloe scalp treatments, they worked but I just hate the smell of Tea Tree so I can't continue the experiment. The Listerine sounds like a viable alternative if just kept to the scalp area.

OH - SEABREEZE ! Haven't heard that name in ages. Yikes we used to use that for everything, stung like crazy - even on unbroken skin. Hmm, wonder what was in it or if it is still around.

[sycamoreboutiqu]

Interesting reviews about the Seabreeze at Amazon - one claims if there is Glycerin in the ingredients it is not the original formula.
http://www.amazon.com/Breeze-Astringent-Skin-Scalp-946ml/product-reviews/B000FSAZY8/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

[sfgirl]

I know a lot of barbes use sea breeze on scalps, and I love how it feels on my face, so maybe it's kind of the same?

[Toadstool]

I read you can use listerine for athlete's foot, so I'm assuming it's fungicidal and that's what's helping?
Glad to hear it's working for you, Capybara!

[Capybara]

I'm inclined to think that the flakes on my scalp are fungal in nature, at least now. The psoriasis creams and shampoos used to work but they don't anymore, and I suspect that it's because they aren't treating anything but psoriasis.

I tested a patch of skin that isn't on my scalp but has had a flare up recently, and so far it isn't responding. I think that that is the psoriasis I'm used to, maybe what's on my scalp is different?

[WaitingSoLong]

I would think it would be bad for the hair....drying. No?

[Capybara]

I would think it would be bad for the hair....drying. No?

That is what I am worried about. I've been trying my best to have minimal Listerine-to-hair contact. I figure, though, I'd rather have dryer hair and a happy scalp, than to not be able to wear dark colours :)

[pepperminttea]

I would think it would be bad for the hair....drying. No?

There are times when I reach a point that I'll do anything to stop the itching. If it works, it'll be worth the extra deep moisture treatments now and then. :) (Getting rid of the flakes too would just be a fantastic bonus!)

[Capybara]

There are times when I reach a point that I'll do anything to stop the itching. If it works, it'll be worth the extra deep moisture treatments now and then. :) (Getting rid of the flakes too would just be a fantastic bonus!)



I completely agree :)

[Coffeebug]

I've used Listerine for the itchies before. Did the trick brilliantly. Only used it occasionally and it didn't seem to affect the condition of my hair. I wetted the length of my hair first though so it would have been a little diluted if it dribbled through it.

[sycamoreboutiqu]

I've used Listerine for the itchies before. Did the trick brilliantly. Only used it occasionally and it didn't seem to affect the condition of my hair. I wetted the length of my hair first though so it would have been a little diluted if it dribbled through it.

That is a good idea. Maybe even do a CLC - Conditioner - Listerine - Conditioner
to protect and moisturize before and after.

Hmmm - I have some off brand stuff on hand, going to check the ingredients and see if it qualifies.

[Capybara]

Ooh, great idea!

If could C-L-C, would you wet your hair before applying the conditioner, or just apply it to dry hair?

[sycamoreboutiqu]

Ooh, great idea!

If could C-L-C, would you wet your hair before applying the conditioner, or just apply it to dry hair?

Just tried it tonight. My scalp was having it's usual issues. Feels ok for day or so then the itchy spots flare up and the flaky gunk starts.

I started with my usual CO wash routine, saturating my dry scalp with some VO5 Conditioner (Mango I think) and then some on the length and left on for 30+ minutes.

Then bending way over the tub I took a small bottle of off-brand mint mouthwash and poured it slowly on the back of my head till I could feel it dripping through to the front (being careful not to get in eyes). I massaged this in for a half minute then started the rinsing. Washing this way bent over a tub it is impossible not to get some of it down the length - doing it in the shower would probably be easier.

The result was that it kind of made the conditioner feel extra creamy, not bad at all. I rinsed thoroughly, and did a second conditioning with my fav Garnier Nutrisse brand along with a final blob as a leave in.

My hair still has a minty scent, but not too strong. Scalp feels good - so the test will be to see how long it stays that way.

[Capybara]

sycamoreboutiqu, glad that your scalp is feeling better so far! Hope it continues that way!

I think the mint actually has a lot to do with it. Mint is calming, and seems to numb the itching :)

[pepperminttea]

Just a mini in progress update. I literally have Listerine on my head at the moment, marinading for ten minutes before I wash my hair. I finally got hold of a bottle of the Original today, so I thought why not. :) I can get used to the smell, sort of antiseptic and menthol mixed together. It doesn't burn nearly as much as I expected - just a warm tingling. Bleaching my upper lip is more painful than this. :p I'll update with my scalp's reaction in a few days.

[Peter]

Same here, just used Listerine on my scalp before washing and I'll update in a few days as to whether it helped or not.

[Peter]

Same here, just used Listerine on my scalp before washing and I'll update in a few days as to whether it helped or not.
There seems to be less flaking and itchiness and so far my scalp is happy. I'll wait to see how long the effects last before using it again.

Thumbs up from me, at least so far. :)

By the way, I used 1-1.5 capfuls of undiluted Listerine and left it on my head for ~5 minutes.

[pepperminttea]

Thanks for bumping this Peter, I forgot to update!

Psoriasis is still angry and itchy, but certainly no worse than usual. I was coming down from a flare-up, and now it's about normal, so that could be the Listerine or just luck. I'm going to keep it up as a pre-wash scalp treatment and see what happens. I used it undiluted too, but stupidly I can't remember how much I used. :o I kept going until I'd gotten everything, but it certainly wasn't enough to make it drip or anything.

[Tabitha]

I would be up for this! The smell can't be worse than the pungent tarmac whiff of Capasal coal tar shampoo which my GP prescribed and which isn't wonderfully effective. In fact I ve had better results from using Panacea on the flaky scabby patches plus giving up conditioner. My hair would appreciate it if I could use conditioner stadium (yes I did always avoid the scalp but it was still affected)

[Dragon Faery]

This is intriguing! I think I will try it on DH's horrible puffy, drany, itchy, scabby area at the back of his head. He has tried many things on it, even athlete's foot spray. So far the only thing that ever cleared it up was swimming in a chlorinated pool daily, which he doesn't have time for anymore. Will report back once we've tried it.

[sycamoreboutiqu]

Well scalp felt quite good for a number of days - then I forgot to use it the next CO wash. Not going to forget this time (tonight or tomorrow) because I think this is going to be a solution.

Fungal/Yeast conditions are a b*&ch to get rid of - anyone who ever had the toenail fungal problem can attest that you have to take oral meds for quite awhile to purge it from your system. Hubby had to do that round and it was a cure.

So it just stands to reason that a long term- possibly forever ongoing treatment is probably called for with the scalp issue too, especially since hair keeps a kind of mini-climate going on that impedes quick resolution. I bet bald guys don't have much of an issue with this.

[Peter]

There seems to be less flaking and itchiness and so far my scalp is happy. I'll wait to see how long the effects last before using it again.

Thumbs up from me, at least so far. :)

By the way, I used 1-1.5 capfuls of undiluted Listerine and left it on my head for ~5 minutes.Used it last Tuesday then again this past Sunday, and I'm loving it. My scalp is almost never itchy and the flaking is noticeably reduced. Also, I know it's only been 1.5 weeks, but my hair seems to take a bit longer to get greasy. I can start washing 2x/week instead of 3x/week, which is great. I think I'm gonna keep using the Listerine once a week.

I'm really glad I saw this thread... it's so awesome to not have my scalp be itchy and flaky. Thanks for posting, Capybara!

[LaceyNg]

such an interesting thread!

you all are using the original one right? in the yellow bottle?

i'm seriously thinking about giving this a try.... i've been WO for 5 months now, and still have flakes, although not really much itching at all. doing honey treatments has helped a LOT with the flakes, but leaves a bit of residue. do you all think using listerine would help to remove the honey residue? its not like a TON of honey thats left in my hair r anything, but i do know that SOME gets let behind....

[Tizzles]

Like another poster, I always had good results from sea breeze for my scalp psoriasis. It's not as bad now as it used to be but when the seasons change my scalp flares up horrible, I always reach for Sea Breeze. Nice thread :) Maybe next time I'll try the Listerine!

[CocoBean]

This is really interesting, never heard of using Listerine on the scalp. I have occasional scaly / itchy scalp, sometimes right around the hairline and nape of the neck. It's not like dandruff, just very itchy and drives me nuts... I wanted to try the ACV next time I wash, but Listerine?? Would never have thought of it. I'm thinking it's the alcohol in it that kills the bacteria causing the scales/dandruff/itchiness? Very encouraging to read that it's helping others. I think my scalp has improved quite a bit since I stopped using SLS poos, so since that is still kind of new for me, want to wait before using Listerine. Will stay tuned to this thread, thank you for posting.:)

[canucky2]

It helps kill lice too. I have used it on my kids hair when they came home from school with lice. Drench them in the lice, put a shower cap on them, watch a disney movie, and voila... dead lice.

[LaceyNg]

It helps kill lice too. I have used it on my kids hair when they came home from school with lice. Drench them in the lice, put a shower cap on them, watch a disney movie, and voila... dead lice.

that's very good to know! thanks for sharing, canucky2! i'll bet the people that make all thse expensive lice shampoos dont want this secret getting out! :p

[ApatheticFairy]

I'm going to try this on my boyfriend's terribly dandruffy hair. He hates putting product and even dandruff shampoo on himself. Let's see if he submits to Listerine....

[Tabitha]

Finally got my bottle of original, non-minty yellow Listerine this afternoon.

I'm going to kill two birds with one stone and try it for athlete's foot as well, since I've only just managed to banish the patch that appears on my left foot every spring since I lived in a flat with a scuzzy bathroom carpet :scared:

[LaceyNg]

i've tried this 2 times so far.
the 1st time i mixed 1.5 oz listerine with 1 oz tap water, and left it on my scalp for about 15 min or so before rinsing. i DID have some sore spots on my scalp prior to testing this out, but there was no burning or stinging sensation. just made my scalp feel fresh :) i'm WO, and was worried about this stripping off too much sebum, but it hasnt, and actually doesnt make my hair feel any drier at all, although i DO think it's removed some buildup i had left from honey lightening.

i normally WO wash my hair every 7 to 9 days, but figured waiting that long between listerine rinses wouldnt allow it to do it's thing as well, so i only waited 4 days, and now i have some on right now. This time it's actually been left on long enough to dry- maybe 30 minutes or so (this dries faster than just plain water does). i'm using the same ration as the 1st time, since i dont want any scalp irritation.

as far as results go, the 1st rinse seemed to make my flakes dry up and actually flake off better, as opposed to just sticking to the scalp area. i'll do at least a few more rinses before i make up my mind about it though, and i'm thinking of washing every 3 days.

i'll for sure keep you guys updated :)
i had to be all sneaky when i told DH we needed listerine. he looked suspicious, and was all "what for....?". "my teeth...." *looks innocent* if he notices the slightly minty smell to my hair pre-rinse i'm not sure how i'll explain it.... :)

[sycamoreboutiqu]

Any updates on this method ?? I totally forgot about it and I do recall that it worked well.

I think anything that contains an anti-fungal agent is going to be a winner for these kind of scalp issues, I am convinced it is a fungal
condition and those are really hard to ever be totally cured of. The less caustic and drying, all the better of course.

[Firefox7275]

Sledgehammer to crack a nut, there is no need to destroy your entire beneficial skin flora to deal with a yeast overgrowth. Better to choose cleansing products and topicals that respect the skin barrier/ protective acid mantle whilst effectively cleansing sebum and possibly inhibiting the malassezia yeast, no sulphate surfactants because these thin the skin barrier at concentrations as low as 1%. Careful with which oils touch your scalp in seborrhoeic dermatitis, limit or avoid oleic acid especially, also palmitic and stearic if possible.

Targeted diet modification can be very effective in seborrhoeic dermatitis and to a lesser extent in psoriasis: you can manipulate the amount of and composition of the sebum, reduce systemic inflammation strengthen the skin barrier, reduce inappropriate immune responses. Especially consider your intake of oily fish, sugar and white/ refined carbs. Research has progressed massively in nutrition and topicals for dermatological health in recent years, so what you were told in the past may not be current understanding.

[Firefox7275]

Any updates on this method ?? I totally forgot about it and I do recall that it worked well.

I think anything that contains an anti-fungal agent is going to be a winner for these kind of scalp issues, I am convinced it is a fungal
condition and those are really hard to ever be totally cured of. The less caustic and drying, all the better of course.

Malassezia is a yeast so yes seborrhoeic dermatitis has a fungal component, however malassezia lives on all of us usually without causing problems so there is no requirement to be 'cured' of anything, yeast will normally be kept in check by other microbes on our scalp and by the environment not being overly hospitable. There is not one single problem to be resolved, SD is believed to be a combination of circumstances, a weakened or faulty skin barrier (this can be genetic or caused by products or both), poor lifestyle choices/ stress/ systemic inflammation (the suffix -ITIS denotes inflammation) which affects sebum composition and/ or immune response. Research suggests those with both SD and acne often have a different balance of fatty acids in their sebum which is believed to contribute to their condition, this can be manipulated with diet.

It is not the yeast itself that causes the symptoms it is the waste products, cleanse the scalp and you do remove both the food source (sebum) and irritant fatty acid laden waste so get temporary relief. However overcleanse the scalp or use a product with an alkaline pH, you thin the skin barrier so irritation becomes more likely, destroy the beneficial microbes that help keep malassezia in check, change the pH of the scalp so that conditions are more hospitable to the yeast, strip the scalp so it is encouraged to pump out more sebum (food) so you get trapped in a cycle. Thus in many cases it's more important for chronic (as opposed to temporary) relief to avoid caustic and drying ingredients than to use an anti fungal because what you ideally want is the body to control the yeast naturally.

Unfortunately most commercial dandruff shampoos utilise sulphate surfactants, my mother's atopic eczema/ seborrhoeic dermatitis reduced by at least half simply by switching to a sulphate free shampoo 'base' not using any yeast suppressing ingredients. The only ketoconazole product I know of that is sulphate free is Regenepure, if I had fairly mild SD I would try Komaza Care Moja shampoo (pH 4.5 with scalp friendly ingredients), later adding a little tea tree oil if that was insufficient. I'd also be using more aloe vera inner leaf gel (proven anti inflammatory, healing) than I do at present.

[jacqueline101]

I'm glad it worked for you. Ive never heard of it until now.