ACV Rinse for Hard Water Question

[caadam]

I have hard water, and I do understand the ACV/lemon juice will help to soften the water for hair.

I've been doing this every other wash. I'll take one cap full of ACV (I use Bragg's unfiltered ACV. It's awesome) and put it in a condiment bottle, then fill the rest up with lukewarm water. I let that sit and do its thing while I do my showering routine and a scalp massage.

But here's my problem: After I do the rinse, I find myself washing it out with hard water. lol Like, I have no money right now to get any kind of filter or a jug of distilled water, so... what do I do?

I love my WO routine so far. My hair is stronger, shinier, and softer because of it (just dealing with some extra oil for now). I would hate to give it up, you know?

Any suggestions? Thoughts? I would really appreciate it. :flower:

ALSO... for anyone who is WO or anyone in general—Since switching to WO/new wash method, do you find yourself taking shorter showers? I have!

[holothuroidea]

ACV and lemon juice do not soften hard water.

If you have hard water, the citric acid in the lemon juice will chelate the mineral deposits that build up on your hair. That means it will bind to them so they can be rinsed away. The acetic acid in vinegar does not do this.

If every time you wash you do a chelating lemon juice rinse, you will stop the mineral deposits from building up so rinsing with hard water wouldn't make too much of a difference.

HTH

[caadam]

Aaaah, I see. See, I was getting the impression through past posts (because I had already done a search for ACV/lemon juice and hard water) that it'll help to soften the water.

[PixxieStix]

Holothuroidea is right, the AVC / lemon juice does not soften the water, but it does help to counteract the negative effects our hair can experience from being washed in hard water frequently. :) I wonder if that would count as "softening the hair" then? :D

[caadam]

Perhaps! lol My hair does feel better after an ACV rinse, and so does my scalp. :D

[holothuroidea]

I think you could say that, PixxieStix, but I just want to reiterate that lemon juice will work but ACV will not.

[caadam]

Welp, I don't have lemon juice on me right now, but now that I know, I'll make sure to get some next month! Thanks for the info.!

[swearnsue]

Just asking, why do you use ACV only every other wash? I use it every time and then rinse with cool water from the tap.

[holothuroidea]

Welp, I don't have lemon juice on me right now, but now that I know, I'll make sure to get some next month! Thanks for the info.!

No problem! It makes me very happy when I can find a use for my chemistry degree (I am a SAHM now). :D

[caadam]

Just asking, why do you use ACV only every other wash? I use it every time and then rinse with cool water from the tap.
Because I find that even though I use a very diluted mixture, ACV rinses make my hair stringy.

[pink.sara]

I dont actually rinse my ACV out, I use a spoonfull or 2 in a big 6 pint jug and just pour it all over and dry as normal, I find it seems to make my hair much softer and eliminate the build up I get if I leave it in.
I suspect this may cause dryness for some but my hair really hates being overconditioned because it's so fine.

Can I ask what your opinion on leaving it in is? (The smell disappears as it dries!)

[gabee]

No problem! It makes me very happy when I can find a use for my chemistry degree (I am a SAHM now). :D

I'm doing my chemistry degree right now, I'm 2 courses short of graduating :)

I've just been experimenting with other compounds that can chelate metal ions. I read a very old thread about "miracle water", which includes citric acid and ascorbic acid (aka vitamin C).
This softens the water, and you use only this softened water on your hair.
I went one step further and added a touch of disodium EDTA (holothuroidea, you probably used this in intro classes for titrations!)
EDTA is included in many shampoos and conditioners to remove the ions from the hair.

I used my "softened water" to wash my hair yesterday; no other water touched it. Since I use shampoo bars, this made a whole world of difference!
My hair shines like glass today, and no soap scum from the shampoo bars!

[holothuroidea]

I'm doing my chemistry degree right now, I'm 2 courses short of graduating :)

I've just been experimenting with other compounds that can chelate metal ions. I read a very old thread about "miracle water", which includes citric acid and ascorbic acid (aka vitamin C).
This softens the water, and you use only this softened water on your hair.
I went one step further and added a touch of disodium EDTA (holothuroidea, you probably used this in intro classes for titrations!)
EDTA is included in many shampoos and conditioners to remove the ions from the hair.

I used my "softened water" to wash my hair yesterday; no other water touched it. Since I use shampoo bars, this made a whole world of difference!
My hair shines like glass today, and no soap scum from the shampoo bars!

Lemon juice is the only source of enough naturally occurring cheating compounds to work sufficiently that I know of.

Disodium EDTA is probably the most efficient, most stable and cheapest chelating compound that ever was. It is in a lot of shampoos. Alas, though, you cannot buy it at the grocery store.

Where did you get yours?

The OP is WO I think, and it's difficult to get a large enough volume of water for a WO wash from a gallon jug but it might be worth a shot.

I TAed a lot as an undergrad, and I actually taught the intro lab to freshmen when I was a senior to pay my tuition. OMG I worked my ass off. *sigh* Those were the days... :laugh:

[MonaMayfair]

I dont actually rinse my ACV out, I use a spoonfull or 2 in a big 6 pint jug and just pour it all over and dry as normal, I find it seems to make my hair much softer and eliminate the build up I get if I leave it in.
I suspect this may cause dryness for some but my hair really hates being overconditioned because it's so fine.

Can I ask what your opinion on leaving it in is? (The smell disappears as it dries!)

I do this too, I never rinse it out. I actually love the smell, but you're right, it disappears very quickly!

[Siiri]

I use a citric acid, which is much cheaper than lemon, if you don't have a lot to spend. You can buy citric acid and ascorbic acid at pharmacies. 100 g cost me about 2 €, but you may get it even cheaper somewhere else, and you only use a tiny amount of it. I've been using 1/10 teaspoon citric acid to 1 litre (alkaline) tap water, but I think I could use even less. I haven't had the change to get pH paper so I'm not exactly sure what the pH of the solution is. I don't rinse out mine because it doesn't have any odour. I'm mainly using it to help restore the pH balance of my scalp, we don't have hard water.

[heatherovka]

You can also find citric acid in most grocery stores in the US. In the canning section usually. Mine is called Mrs. Wages Citric Acid, for canning tomatoes. I'm currently living in a pretty small town, so if I can find it easily I imagine most could.

It doesn't take much and it does a good job. Slightly off topic, but when the dishwasher heating elements get white hardwater deposits on them, I put a tablespoon of citric acid in the soap compartment and run through a cycle, and after that they are squeaky clean. :D I tried a cupful (maybe two?) of vinegar first, and it didn't help at all. Yes, dishwashers are quite different from hair (:p), but it useful for general hardwater deposit cleaning.

[AngryVikingGirl]

In my experience ACV rinse helps but doesn't do wonders. It is not the same as if I had washed with soft water. I'd collect rainwater if that's possible and you like it. For me it would have been complicated, so I returned to egg wash, but here comes the summer, back to WO!
Actually when you rinse the shampoo out of your hair with hard water, minerals don't build up. I guess this is because they actually stick in the sebum. If you remove sebum with something, they can't. But it's just my guess.
Good luck!

[heidi w.]

I have hard water, and I do understand the ACV/lemon juice will help to soften the water for hair.

I've been doing this every other wash. I'll take one cap full of ACV (I use Bragg's unfiltered ACV. It's awesome) and put it in a condiment bottle, then fill the rest up with lukewarm water. I let that sit and do its thing while I do my showering routine and a scalp massage.

But here's my problem: After I do the rinse, I find myself washing it out with hard water. lol Like, I have no money right now to get any kind of filter or a jug of distilled water, so... what do I do?

I love my WO routine so far. My hair is stronger, shinier, and softer because of it (just dealing with some extra oil for now). I would hate to give it up, you know?

Any suggestions? Thoughts? I would really appreciate it. :flower:

Let's straighten out a mild misunderstanding in your opening statement, first. You're basically on the right track regarding ACV, but the way you expressed it shows that you're not clear that ACV does not actually SOFTEN the water itself. What it does, first and foremost, is treat the scalp skin and thereby the "Acid Mantle". Shampoos and products applied to skin tend to leave the skin "alkaline" (or base on some pH scales) in pH. When we apply an acidic rinse which ACV and lemon or lime juice might be we are tweaking the pH towards the "acidic" end of the pH scale. It actually ends up a bit more neutral, that is center, on the pH scale, somewhere around 6.7/6.8 on the pH scale. That's the primary benefit of any acidic hair rinse.

The secondary benefit to these type of rinses is that it can remove what was left on the hair in that hair wash only. Once the stuff has dried on the hair, say, left on product or oil, to get it off, one may need to then clarify the hair. ACV or acidic rinses are NOT clarifying as they don't handle what was left on the hair to dry.

The third benefit is it can help to manage hard water conditions, in that, again, it can remove mineral deposits on the hair off of the hair that hard water tends to leave behind in that hair wash only. Once its dried on the hair, clarifying will be required to remove it.

Since I'm speaking about clarifying, please know that clarifying does not need to be performed on any regulararity of schedule nor does it need to occur overly frequently. ONLY perform a clarify hair wash on an as-needed basis. Such as when we have buildup and conditioner seems to be working less well, and products seem to not cleanse the scalp skin and hair.

Also know that very often what the hair itself needs may not be the same need as what the scalp skin itself needs. These can be very different needs in some cases, as cases of scalp skin problems present. I have a scalp skin problem so I am aware of the distinction. Exzema, Psoriasis, Seborrheic Dermatitus, Dandruff: these are examples of scalp skin maladies that need different attention at the scalp skin level when we compare to the hair itself.

IF you're Water Only, I recommend that if you have not learned yet about the Acid Mantle, that it may in time benefit you to know what that is, if you don't know what that is and how it works.

You claim that you don't have funds right now to afford a shower water filter in your residence, but do know they can be found for fairly inexpensive. In any hardware store, an attachment to the shower arm that will filter the shower head water can be bought and installed for somewhere around $20-$30 dollars US. Do buy extra filters and change the filter when needed. A half a month of foregoing a daily coffee drink can often fund the cost of such hardware. All you need is a wrench or screwdriver to install, and you should not need your landlord's permission to install it since it is removable easily when it's time to vacate the premises in a rental. If you have a house, you can do this until you can afford to install a water softener, which is around $600 between purchase of the unit and labor to install.

The thing to beware of in the situation of an installed water softener is that it kind of presents risks to those who have high blood pressure, and possibly victims of stroke or at risk or those with heart conditions since the drinking water's salt is somewhat elevated, something around the saltiness of a slice of bread. For those with this dilemma or who do not want to drink this water, I recommend additionally installing a water filter under the kitchen sink, such as an osmosis water filter. I have a unit to install but I then need to afford the cost of an electrician for handling under the sink installation as I need a plug to plug into. So I have this on hold for right now.

The ACV rinse should not be used by lighter colored hair types, such as blondes, as prolonged use over time can indeed tinge the hair a reddish hue. Blondes and light colored hair types will do better with white distilled vinegar diluted the same as ACV or a lemon or lime juice rinse, also diluted.

Do not leave this rinse in the hair. Apply it and rinse it out fairly immediately. I have had to contend with hard water now and then, and I don't really worry about the water hardness too much when I use a vinegar rinse. There are just some things that I can't do a lot about, and so I try not to worry about it, although I am aware that a problem may still be brewing. One thing to realize is that people use this rinse at different times in their hair wash: some use it after shampooing and yet before conditioning, some after conditioning. I always used it last in hard water conditions so that I gained the most benefit possible from the use of this rinse. I must confess, I used it to help manage my Seborrheic Dermatitus, and therefore used it AFTER I had completely washed my hair. In short I used it as the last thing in hair washing. I now, no longer ACV or any kind of lemon rinse, which I eventually switched to, because I have found a shampoo that manages the symptoms of Seborrheic Dermatitus without additional help from me.

I hope this thread is helpful to you, somewhat,
heidi w.

[heidi w.]

In my experience ACV rinse helps but doesn't do wonders. It is not the same as if I had washed with soft water. I'd collect rainwater if that's possible and you like it. For me it would have been complicated, so I returned to egg wash, but here comes the summer, back to WO!
Actually when you rinse the shampoo out of your hair with hard water, minerals don't build up. I guess this is because they actually stick in the sebum. If you remove sebum with something, they can't. But it's just my guess.
Good luck!

Underscore added by heidi w. so people know what I am referring to below.

Hair washing as a term, to me, is a bit of a misnomer. When we wash our hair, what we're really after is a hygienic health practice to wash really the scalp skin, and the hair just happens to be in the way of the scalp skin. This is so we can remove dirt, product, sebum to kind of remove excess and dead skin cells. Everyone's skin, all humans, dogs and cats too, have sebum. In fact, the sebacious gland is a part of the hair follicles construction under the scalp skin, and the Acid Mantle is made up of sweat and sebum, which is a thin film that covers the scalp skin to form a kind of barrier to protect the integrity of the skin and protect the hair follicles. So, actually saying the hard water minerals stick to sebum may be true, when we wash our hair, we are washing the sebum off the scalp skin as well. That's part and parcel of washing hair. Kind of cleansing the Acid Mantle of this thin, thin layer and somewhat starting over again. When hair is unwashed for a long time, we can actually smell the odiferousness of the Acid Mantle as this film is so built up, it begins to smell. It's the sebum that's stinking.

I hope this clears up a kind of interepretation I made from your post. It just sounded as though you kind of thought as sebum as something somehow separate. It's not. It's all part of what is on scalp skin.

heidi w.

[heidi w.]

Lemon juice is the only source of enough naturally occurring cheating compounds to work sufficiently that I know of.

Disodium EDTA is probably the most efficient, most stable and cheapest chelating compound that ever was. It is in a lot of shampoos. Alas, though, you cannot buy it at the grocery store.

Where did you get yours?

The OP is WO I think, and it's difficult to get a large enough volume of water for a WO wash from a gallon jug but it might be worth a shot.

I TAed a lot as an undergrad, and I actually taught the intro lab to freshmen when I was a senior to pay my tuition. OMG I worked my ass off. *sigh* Those were the days... :laugh:

Chelating and Clarifying are two entirely different things, and eventually comes up in all conversations regarding ACV Rinses.

Chelating handles what has bonded to the interior of the hair, the cortex.

Clarifing handles what is on the surface of the hair, the outer layer of hair which is known as the cuticle.

I always advocate to clarify twice prior to proceeding to chelating. In most cases, chelating will not be necessary. This is a practice that is reserved, for examples, as a pre-treatment in salons prior to changing hair's color or texture such as a permanent might do.

In LHC land, most times all one needs is clarifying, not chelating. It's very important to keep the terms clear when we relay information because using the wrong term can often lead to misunderstandings, and then down the line, the gap in understanding can appear and be spread. Internet anything spreads like wildfire. I saw a youtube video a couple weeks ago with a woman carrying on with utter bliss regarding how she washes her hair naturally using Baking Soda. She's about to get the world in trouble with hair care. She made some absolutely ridiculous statements in that video, and clearly did not know what she was doing, even if it worked for her at the moment. I felt bad for those who didn't realize.

Washing the hair with Baking Soda is not a way to regularly wash the hair. Hair will eventually become quite dry. The use of Baking Soda mixed with anything is a CLARIFYING hair wash, and that's all it should ever be used for. Period.

heidi w.

[heidi w.]

I do this too, I never rinse it out. I actually love the smell, but you're right, it disappears very quickly!


Leaving ACV or lemon juice rinses unwashed out has no actual benefit to the hair as far as I know. Never has a single book that I've ever read in regards to hair care or homemade recipes ever recommended this or explained any benefit from leaving it on and on the hair. However, we all know hair responds differently to the same things as we have all kinds of hair.

I'd like to know the actual benefits someone who does this is actually claiming. I'm wondering if it'd be the same benefit just about as they may have if they just rinse it out.

heidi w.

[AngryVikingGirl]

Underscore added by heidi w. so people know what I am referring to below.

Hair washing as a term, to me, is a bit of a misnomer. When we wash our hair, what we're really after is a hygienic health practice to wash really the scalp skin, and the hair just happens to be in the way of the scalp skin. This is so we can remove dirt, product, sebum to kind of remove excess and dead skin cells. Everyone's skin, all humans, dogs and cats too, have sebum. In fact, the sebacious gland is a part of the hair follicles construction under the scalp skin, and the Acid Mantle is made up of sweat and sebum, which is a thin film that covers the scalp skin to form a kind of barrier to protect the integrity of the skin and protect the hair follicles. So, actually saying the hard water minerals stick to sebum may be true, when we wash our hair, we are washing the sebum off the scalp skin as well. That's part and parcel of washing hair. Kind of cleansing the Acid Mantle of this thin, thin layer and somewhat starting over again. When hair is unwashed for a long time, we can actually smell the odiferousness of the Acid Mantle as this film is so built up, it begins to smell. It's the sebum that's stinking.

I hope this clears up a kind of interepretation I made from your post. It just sounded as though you kind of thought as sebum as something somehow separate. It's not. It's all part of what is on scalp skin.

heidi w.

Let me informate you that I'm a WO-er. We're friends with sebum. I wanted to say that when you're not a WO-er, you remove sebum somehow and kinda substitute it with stuff from conditioner, other treatments, cones, oils...Which protect and cover your hair. Because shampoo removes stuff but doesn't condition (usually).
So when you remove your sebum in hard water (with a product), there's nothing to stick in for the minerals, if my theory is right. When you do a WO in hard water, you intentionally don't remove harshly your sebum, so minerals stick in it.

[AngryVikingGirl]

Leaving ACV or lemon juice rinses unwashed out has no actual benefit to the hair as far as I know. Never has a single book that I've ever read in regards to hair care or homemade recipes ever recommended this or explained any benefit from leaving it on and on the hair. However, we all know hair responds differently to the same things as we have all kinds of hair.

I'd like to know the actual benefits someone who does this is actually claiming. I'm wondering if it'd be the same benefit just about as they may have if they just rinse it out.

heidi w.

Maybe there's no benefit, but it doesn't harm your - I mean - MY hair, at least, for sure. Been doing this for a year.
But you save water.:p

[holothuroidea]

Chelating and Clarifying are two entirely different things, and eventually comes up in all conversations regarding ACV Rinses.

Chelating handles what has bonded to the interior of the hair, the cortex.

Clarifing handles what is on the surface of the hair, the outer layer of hair which is known as the cuticle.

I always advocate to clarify twice prior to proceeding to chelating. In most cases, chelating will not be necessary. This is a practice that is reserved, for examples, as a pre-treatment in salons prior to changing hair's color or texture such as a permanent might do.

In LHC land, most times all one needs is clarifying, not chelating. It's very important to keep the terms clear when we relay information because using the wrong term can often lead to misunderstandings, and then down the line, the gap in understanding can appear and be spread. Internet anything spreads like wildfire. I saw a youtube video a couple weeks ago with a woman carrying on with utter bliss regarding how she washes her hair naturally using Baking Soda. She's about to get the world in trouble with hair care. She made some absolutely ridiculous statements in that video, and clearly did not know what she was doing, even if it worked for her at the moment. I felt bad for those who didn't realize.

Washing the hair with Baking Soda is not a way to regularly wash the hair. Hair will eventually become quite dry. The use of Baking Soda mixed with anything is a CLARIFYING hair wash, and that's all it should ever be used for. Period.

heidi w.

:confused:

I mean, I agree with you. I just have no idea how this was a response to my post.

She didn't ask about clarifying, she asked about getting rid of hard water deposits, which you need a chelating agent for. She's doing WO so she wants a natural option. She needs lemon juice or citric acid. ACV will NOT get rid of hard water minerals and neither will baking soda.

[gabee]

Lemon juice is the only source of enough naturally occurring cheating compounds to work sufficiently that I know of.

Disodium EDTA is probably the most efficient, most stable and cheapest chelating compound that ever was. It is in a lot of shampoos. Alas, though, you cannot buy it at the grocery store.

Where did you get yours?

The OP is WO I think, and it's difficult to get a large enough volume of water for a WO wash from a gallon jug but it might be worth a shot.

I TAed a lot as an undergrad, and I actually taught the intro lab to freshmen when I was a senior to pay my tuition. OMG I worked my ass off. *sigh* Those were the days... :laugh:

I got my EDTA from http://www.bulkactives.com/disodiumedta.htm
It was really cheap, the L-ascorbic acid was also about the same price.

I made my water in a bucket (about 4L) and used a yogourt container to pour the water on my head. I lathered twice with shampoo bars, and about half the bucket was more than enough for that. Its surprising just how little water you really need!

For heidi w., the purpose of the chelating agents in this case is to chelate the metal ions present in the water, in order to make it softer. It is not for chelating the metal ions in the hair. I only use about a pinch of disodium EDTA and ascorbic acid.
I believe its probably about the same principle as water softeners that people can buy for their homes, or water softeners for fish tanks and such. This is just a much cheaper solution and easier solution

[holothuroidea]

Let me informate you that I'm a WO-er. We're friends with sebum. I wanted to say that when you're not a WO-er, you remove sebum somehow and kinda substitute it with stuff from conditioner, other treatments, cones, oils...Which protect and cover your hair. Because shampoo removes stuff but doesn't condition (usually).
So when you remove your sebum in hard water (with a product), there's nothing to stick in for the minerals, if my theory is right. When you do a WO in hard water, you intentionally don't remove harshly your sebum, so minerals stick in it.

If you have hard water and do not use a shampoo that has citric acid or disodium EDTA or another chelating agent, you will get build up even if you remove all your sebum with every wash. The minerals attach themselves to the surface of the hair if there is no sebum there.

Most shampoos have chelating agents, though, and most people never have a problem. It can be an issue for people who use poo bars or wash with soap, though.

[AngryVikingGirl]

:confused:

I mean, I agree with you. I just have no idea how this was a response to my post.

She didn't ask about clarifying, she asked about getting rid of hard water deposits, which you need a chelating agent for. She's doing WO so she wants a natural option. She needs lemon juice or citric acid. ACV will NOT get rid of hard water minerals and neither will baking soda.
LOL..........

[AngryVikingGirl]

If you have hard water and do not use a shampoo that has citric acid or disodium EDTA or another chelating agent, you will get build up even if you remove all your sebum with every wash. The minerals attach themselves to the surface of the hair if there is no sebum there.

Most shampoos have chelating agents, though, and most people never have a problem. It can be an issue for people who use poo bars or wash with soap, though.
Mmmm....actually I always followed my egg wash with an ACV rinse so I have no experience on this. But I thought that if you do a final rinse with water, minerals still have a chance to build up. But I believe you.

[holothuroidea]

Mmmm....actually I always followed my egg wash with an ACV rinse so I have no experience on this. But I thought that if you do a final rinse with water, minerals still have a chance to build up. But I believe you.

:hmm: I wonder if there is something in the eggs that lifts the minerals away.

If you rinse with hard water, some will minerals will stick on your hair but it will be a small enough amount that it wont affect the quality of your hair and if you wash them out in your next wash they won't get a chance "build up" to a large enough amount to cause problems.

[heidi w.]

Let me informate you that I'm a WO-er. We're friends with sebum. I wanted to say that when you're not a WO-er, you remove sebum somehow and kinda substitute it with stuff from conditioner, other treatments, cones, oils...Which protect and cover your hair. Because shampoo removes stuff but doesn't condition (usually).
So when you remove your sebum in hard water (with a product), there's nothing to stick in for the minerals, if my theory is right. When you do a WO in hard water, you intentionally don't remove harshly your sebum, so minerals stick in it.

Thank you for your information. I'm glad your hair care routine is working for you. I think I may be misunderstood slightly, but that's okay. Life goes on.

heidi w.

[heidi w.]

:confused:

I mean, I agree with you. I just have no idea how this was a response to my post.

She didn't ask about clarifying, she asked about getting rid of hard water deposits, which you need a chelating agent for. She's doing WO so she wants a natural option. She needs lemon juice or citric acid. ACV will NOT get rid of hard water minerals and neither will baking soda.

Okay, thank you.

That's interesting because all my previous reading led me to understand that ACV will get rid of hard water minerals in that hair wash ONLY.

hmmmm.

More to learn I guess.


heidi w.

[caadam]

Thanks, everyone, for giving suggestions and information! And Heidi, I have a basic understanding of the acid mantle, but I certainly plan on reading more about it. :) Thanks!

[jeanniet]

I do a CA final rinse and don't rinse that out. Works fine. The amount you need will depend on your water (I have well water), but I would start with 1/4 tsp. per gallon and see how that works for you.
I do ACV rinses sometimes, too, just because I like them, but as far as the water effect the CA works better.

[heidi w.]

:confused:

I mean, I agree with you. I just have no idea how this was a response to my post.

She didn't ask about clarifying, she asked about getting rid of hard water deposits, which you need a chelating agent for. She's doing WO so she wants a natural option. She needs lemon juice or citric acid. ACV will NOT get rid of hard water minerals and neither will baking soda.

I wasn't directly answering her question. The first time I posted, I mostly understood from her word choice that she thought that an ACV rinse actually softened the water. Which it does not.

Then I saw your post and saw you using the term chelating and wondered why you were suggesting chelating versus clarifying. I explained the difference between the two, and suggest that clarifying is all that she may need at some point in the future. You're explaining that ACV rinses do not help mitigate hard water deposits on the hair at all, and everything I've read from Naturally Healthy Hair by Lorraine Massey and some stuff in George Michael's long hair care book (if I recall correctly), and loads of information about ACV rinses abouding on the internet of which this is an example:

http://womenshair.about.com/od/healthyhairmaintenance/a/clarifyshampoo.htm

I remain confused as to why you're recommending chelating. You're saying that clarifying doesn't remove hard water mineral deposits if I understand you correctly. That's very interesting because over the years I have read otherwise. This is new news to me, so I just wanted to understand better.

I am not trying to be rude at all, I am trying to understand all the apparent misinformation of decades past.


heidi w.

[heidi w.]

Thanks, everyone, for giving suggestions and information! And Heidi, I have a basic understanding of the acid mantle, but I certainly plan on reading more about it. :) Thanks!

I wish you the very best,
heidi w.

[heidi w.]

I do a CA final rinse and don't rinse that out. Works fine. The amount you need will depend on your water (I have well water), but I would start with 1/4 tsp. per gallon and see how that works for you.
I do ACV rinses sometimes, too, just because I like them, but as far as the water effect the CA works better.

What does CA stand for?
heidi w.

[heidi w.]

Maybe there's no benefit, but it doesn't harm your - I mean - MY hair, at least, for sure. Been doing this for a year.
But you save water.:p

I have read on LHC and elsewhere of folks leaving this rinse IN the hair, and have read that some have experienced problems. I'm glad that you have not had this experience, but I thought I may let you know that for some, it does cause an issue.

I'm glad your routine and method is working for you.
heidi w.

[caadam]

What does CA stand for?
heidi w.

I think citric acid?

[holothuroidea]

Heidi, I'm really not sure where you are getting info that clarifying will remove hard water minerals from hair.

The only reason to ever use a chelating shampoo or rinse is to get rid of mineral deposits on the hair (from hard water or swimming), and the reason you have to do that is because clarifying by itself won't do the job.

Hard water becomes a problem when people witch from regular shampoos to no-poo methods like WO or BS/ACV.

[jeanniet]

CA = citric acid. I do need a chelating agent, not a clarifying one. I don't actually have to clarify very often.

About sodium--the amount of sodium in a slice of bread is somewhere in the range of 200-250g, which is actually quite high. The nutritional need for sodium is only about 1000-1500mg, although the amount you see on the nutritional guidelines is more like 2500g. I think they have it set so high because the average American diet is so overloaded with sodium; most Americans probably consume around 4000mg or more. The amount of sodium in softened water is considerably less than 200mg/8 oz., but depends on the hardness of the water. If there's a health issue, then non-softened water is best, but dietary sodium is a much higher danger than the water.

[heidi w.]

OK Cadaam.

I found out a little more info. Hard water. If you don't know, I would find out just how hard your water is. If it's a little bit hard, then clarifying will do. If we're talking a lot of heavy metal deposits, it may be that if you try clarifying it may not work and then you would have to proceed to chelating which is pronounced (kelating: that ch is a "k" sound).

Clarifying works in most instances for the removal of hard water mineral deposits. Those with a lot of heavy metals in their water probably should re-think drinking that water or cooking rice, say, with it; and they may need to chelate instead of clarifying. But clarifying works just fine for most people to rather clean the slate and start over again. This is born out by testimonials on all kinds of hair care sites and includes LHC. This is stated in Naturally Healthy Hair, a great natural hair care book; and I believe the George Michael salon finds it suitable.

For the most part, to remove hard water mineral deposits, clarifying works just fine and there is no need to advance to an even harsher hair treatent known as chelating. I consulted with a hairdresser I know in Boston, and this is the information I received.

The best idea is to manage somehow to filter your water so that you are not working on hair care in such an environment. I'd make that a purchase priority, and for about two weeks foregoing a daily coffee, in most cases, you'll be able to at least afford a shower head filter.

I hope this is somehow helpful,
heidi w.

[holothuroidea]

Heidi, I think that you have read that clarifying removes hard water minerals because all clarifying shampoos have a chelating agent in them.

Have you also read it is true for clarifying with baking soda? I think that would be incorrect.

Also, a diluted lemon rinse after a WO wash is not harsh at all.

[heidi w.]

Again Caadam.

I just received a telephone call back from a hairdresser friend in Ohio, from a long hair care George Michael salon. And he reiterated what I'm saying: it is best to ease into the removal of hard water mineral deposits by clarifying first, two times minimally to remove these deposits. And if after two clarifying tries, then advance to chelating if clarifying simply didn't work. It's all about HOW hard your water is, how much heavy metal deposits are in the water itself. Most water with that volume of hard water mineral deposits that require chelating would be in general considered unfavorable to even cook or drink with that kind of water.

Obviously it is best to find a way to filter the water as soon as you can.

heidi w.

[holothuroidea]

Clarifying twice sounds a lot more harsh than a lemon or citric acid rinse, TBH. Since there is no product build up because she is WO, I don't see a need to clarify first if the lemon rinse works.

I'm not a fancy hair expert but this is just what makes sense to me.

:twocents:

ETA: Also if you can manage to wash with a jug of water, using citric acid or EDTA to "soften" the water you wash with sounds like a great idea.

[Amanah]

we have well water (hard water).
we have a water softener but it doesn't seems to get all the minerals out.
Also, we have an RO (reverse osmosis) in the kitchen to purify water for cooking and drinking.
I take a jug of RO water with a little vinegar in the shower with me for washing/rinsing my hair.

[caadam]

heidi w. and holothuroidea:

I'm very thankful for the suggestions and help you both have offered. :D I feel more confident about how to take care of my hair with your ideas.

I'm very tight with money, at least until next week; I got three bucks in the bank and that's it. lol But what I plan to do is this: I'm going get myself a pitcher with a filter and work on removing the mineral deposits on my hair. Also, I'm going to invest in some citric acid powder.

Sadly, the reason why I'm not going to get a shower filter is because I'm actually going to be moving, probably towards the end of the year. Where I'm moving to won't allow me the luxury of taking that shower filter with me and buying new ones, so I figured the filtered pitcher would be a nice portable option! :) And I will be able to stock up on filter replacements.

I just want to be clear on what I should focus on:

So, I need to work on removing minerals, and by doing that I need to clarify. What do you suggest I clarify with? The citric acid? Something else? I can say right now that my scalp is doing great; I've hardly any buildup on it, but I certainly feel my hair getting weighed down with the deposits on my water. So what should I use as someone who is WO?

As far as my scalp and hair's temperament, my scalp HATES shampoo and conditioner (it gets dry, then super oily, itchy, flaky, and will burn), but I know my hair can handle products if it needs to.

I'm sorry, but I'm still a little confused with whether citric acid is chelating or clarifying. :(

ETA: Heidi, last week I had found a report for my city's water, and while I barely understood it, I was able to cross reference with another site and saw that my water is pretty hard. It's enough that after every shower, I can feel the deposits on my skin. It's like a caked feeling against my skin that I can rub off like a white layer of residue, and I can see it all over my shower curtain. I have to clean it regularly with my tub. It's pretty gnarly how much there is. lol

[holothuroidea]

Citric acid is a chelating agent. I don't know how much it would wash other kinds of build up off your hair (clarify).

You can try both clarifying and chelating in one go if you just do a baking soda wash (1tsp in 8oz water) followed by a lemon juice rinse (1/4c lemon juice + 3/4c water).

[jeanniet]

Based on experience, I have to respectfully disagree with what Heidi posted above. My water hardness is 10, which is considered hard, but not very hard; I can't tell you the amount of other minerals because I can't find the last test report, but it does contain iron and magnesium. It is hard enough to cause calcium buildup on surfaces. The water is both safe and palatable--in fact, my kids hate filtered water and will only drink the well water. Clarifying has not turned out to be an effective means of coping with the water here, and if I were to clarify twice it would trash my hair. Citric acid rinses, on the other hand, do make a big difference and are quite gentle. My hair has gone from chin length to hip using CA rinses and minimal clarifying--I doubt I've clarified more than 10-15 times in the past two years. We do have an iron filter--which doesn't remove all the iron, because we still get iron bacteria (causes some discoloration/film)--but no softeners and no shower filters.

The kind of chelating recommended by salons requires using a chelating shampoo. These are both clarifying and chelating, and while they do work they are also very stripping. Joico makes one, and it is effective but really drying. Since you are WO and also have trouble with shampoos, I would avoid this. Instead, I highly recommend trying a lemon juice or CA rinse before you do anything else. It won't hurt, and if it helps you'll be set.

[ktani]

The kind of chelating recommended by salons requires using a chelating shampoo. These are both clarifying and chelating, and while they do work they are also very stripping. Joico makes one, and it is effective but really drying. Since you are WO and also have trouble with shampoos, I would avoid this. Instead, I highly recommend trying a lemon juice or CA rinse before you do anything else. It won't hurt, and if it helps you'll be set.

I agree. Salon professional chelating treatments can be very different to the chelating shampoos out there for consumers. ETA: When I worked in the beauty industry they were. Some are available at beauty outlets and may not be harsh. Some chelating shampoos only chelate and not clarify. A well diluted citric acid or lemon juice rinse left on the hair for a moment or 2 and then rinsed out or just rinsed out can do no harm, and may well be the answer.

[Bedhead]

Thanks for bringing this up Caadam!

I'm trying to understand what's wrong with my water. In the past, a very diluted ACV rinse resulted in severe hay-like hair.

I googled my city and found this information.
Water hardness:116ppm Calcium 34 Magnesium 8 Na 11

For some reason I thought my water was harder than it is, but this is considered "moderately" hard. I just clarified, and did a final rinse with filtered water, but there's something on my hair, it yellows it somewhat, and I can feel there's some sort of residue that shouldn't be there that wasn't there before because much of my hair was virgin (the clarifying was for the non-virgin that I was having trouble with). My virgin hair has no yellow. My water does not look yellow coming out of the tap and tastes fine, although I filter it anyway. Is this a mineral of some sort?

I'm confused though because you're saying clarifying shampoos, which is what I used, chelates, but as jeanniet says, I don't think it's effective enough. Only using filtered water, as I did in doing WO improves this somewhat but doesn't get rid of it completely - this is the biggest reason I went NW/SO. I'm wondering if I too should simply do a citric acid rinse? Would that be the magic solution?

P.S. I hope this isn't considered a hijack. I believe this is connected to what this thread is about and I didn't want to make a new thread resulting everyone saying basically the same thing.

[heidi w.]

Clarifying twice sounds a lot more harsh than a lemon or citric acid rinse, TBH. Since there is no product build up because she is WO, I don't see a need to clarify first if the lemon rinse works.

I'm not a fancy hair expert but this is just what makes sense to me.

:twocents:

ETA: Also if you can manage to wash with a jug of water, using citric acid or EDTA to "soften" the water you wash with sounds like a great idea.

I DO NOT mean to clarify twice absolutely. I mean, try clarifying once. In most cases, clarifying once will work fine. If it doesn't work, then maybe try clarifying a second time. And if that absolutely does not work, then advance to actual chelating.

Just being clearer so people know what I mean. Most times, clarifying once will be sufficient.

heidi w.

[heidi w.]

Heidi, I think that you have read that clarifying removes hard water minerals because all clarifying shampoos have a chelating agent in them.

Have you also read it is true for clarifying with baking soda? I think that would be incorrect.

Also, a diluted lemon rinse after a WO wash is not harsh at all.

Ok, I did not read that at all. I have never been told that clarifying works because it has chelating agents in it. But that could be.

I'm gonna let you take over for now, since you seem to know more. I clearly don't know what I'm talking about although I did my best to find out reliable information from two different hairdressers, from books that I've mentiioned in this thread and just plain experience.

Oh well. I am now in school, so I have a lot less time to handle disputes.

heidi w.