Please stop the shedding!

[Safari_68]

Hello to everyone at the LHC!

I'm a newbie here but I couldn't resist the temptation to post this as its one of the reasons I joined this forum. I wasn't sure whether to post this in the Seborrheic dermatitis support thread but because it isn't just specifically a dermatitis post I would post it here, please forgive me if I'm wrong, this post has also turned out longer then i thought it would i do apologise for the lengthy read!

To give a quick history I'm almost 22 and the last few years have been massively stressful, my mother was diagnosed with end stage cancer 2 years ago and died 6 months later I was her carer and had to leave my job to give her the care she needed, my husband had been retrenched a couple months earlier and we were battling as it was. After my mother passed away i had to deal with all the legalities of her will and sell her house ect. All of this ended about 4 months ago, soon as it did hubby and i were on a plane to Zimbabwe because his family is here, we both had now been unemployed for far too long and could get jobs with the family business. *small town=limited work*.

Now that we are here and settling in i can finally address something that has been a problem for the last couple of years...my hair . I was told i have seborrheic dermatitis/wet dandruff and as a result i have had a very frustrating time trying to manage it with the stress i have been under my hair has suffered a whole bunch of neglect and not the good kind, my scalp hates to be oily but of course i have a very oily scalp I have tried every shampoo/conditioner for the condition and everything inbetween i have gone no poo and bs/acv both for a good 6 months each the only thing that worked for my scalp was the bs/acv but my hair hated it, i had a horrible dry birds nest the whole time i tried to adjust the dilutions thinking they might be too strong but no matter what i did it didn't help. As a result of all this my hair is quite delicate, and much thinner i was losing up to 1000 hairs a day *yes i did actually count them at one stage lol* thankfully this has calmed down and while im not losing quite that much i would estimate 100+ a day is normal now, this is still double what it used to be before this fiasco though.

This has come out like quite a rant/whine I'm sorry i didn't mean it to but I am so frustrated, doctors/dermatologists haven't been any help and none have the treatments have really done much either I am now back to washing my hair every other day with head & shoulders sham/cond as these are the only ones that don't irratate my scalp or my hair, my hair itself is quite dry and brittle it breaks easily and after losing 1/3 of my hair I'm quite nervous about trying anything else.

I guess I'm looking for anything right now suggestions? theories? or maybe just a bit of comforting its sounds so ridiculous to be so worried about my hair with everything else I have had going on but its quite important to me, I guess because it was something that my mum and I had in common and she also had very long hair and my childhood was spent taking care of hers while she took care of mine.

To end on a less emotional note has anyone else with scalp issues ever wanted to just shave there head ? or is it just me? Lately I have wondered if it wouldn't be better to cut my losses and lop it all off and start again, any ideas?

[Amber_Maiden]

I have no advice, but I'm sure there are people here who will know what you could do. *hugs*

[Dolly]

Hey there.....my 13 yr old son has suffered with seborrheic dermatitis since he was a baby. There are two things that we have tried that helped. When he was about 9 or 10 years old, we started using Neem and Tea Tree shampoo bars from Chagrin Valley soaps in his shower daily. That worked pretty well.

Once his teen hormones started going though, it stopped working as well. The doc suggested to get him some Nizoral shampoo. That stuff works like a charm! He has been using it for about a year, and we swear by it. You can find it at Walgreen's or CVS, or even WalMart sometimes.

[Desdesdes]

I have to second Nizarol shampoo. A little goes a long way, and it really works :)

[Madora]

Safari 68, you might want to pm member Heidi W who has the same problem and is quite knowledgeable about it. She has a fantastic knee length mane!

[TuttaKarlsson]

Well, I am not a doctor and not a specialist in dermatitis... but I had since years (since I was 10, I think) dandruff... and nothing has helped. I could not rule out the reason for it. I have tried so many things, but nothing helped. For a while, Nizoral (or any other shampoo with ketokonazol) helped nicely, but only if I used it during each washing. When I used another shampoo - the problem was back. And later I have noticed that effect of Nizoral is getting weaker and weaker...
During my last vacations on the seashore I have noticed, that my dandruff was gone: I suppose, from sun and sea. That brough me to the idea, that it IS possible to treat it and to solve this problem. And I have tried Tea Tree Oil. Not a shampoo, but the oil. I just add some (5-10) drops of it to the shampoo (directly in the palm, before washing), put it on my sculp, wait 2-5 minutes and then rinse. I could not believed, but it helped from the very first time! And now I just repeat this procedure when needed (once in 2-3 weeks usually) and I am still impressed, that my big problem is gone!
I am not sure that it will help everybody, but it is worth trying it!

[TuttaKarlsson]

Well, I am not a doctor and not a specialist in dermatitis... but I had since years (since I was 10, I think) dandruff... and nothing has helped. I could not rule out the reason for it. I have tried so many things, but nothing helped. For a while, Nizoral (or any other shampoo with ketokonazol) helped nicely, but only if I used it during each washing. When I used another shampoo - the problem was back. And later I have noticed that effect of Nizoral is getting weaker and weaker...
During my last vacations on the seashore I have noticed, that my dandruff was gone: I suppose, from sun and sea. That brough me to the idea, that it IS possible to treat it and to solve this problem. And I have tried Tea Tree Oil. Not a shampoo, but the oil. I just add some (5-10) drops of it to the shampoo (directly in the palm, before washing), put it on my sculp, wait 2-5 minutes and then rinse. I could not believed, but it helped from the very first time! And now I just repeat this procedure when needed (once in 2-3 weeks usually) and I am still impressed, that my big problem is gone!
I am not sure that it will help everybody, but it is worth trying it!

[heidi w.]

Safari 68, you might want to pm member Heidi W who has the same problem and is quite knowledgeable about it. She has a fantastic knee length mane!

REPLY -- PART I OF II

Thank you, Madora!!

Yes, indeed I do have Seborrheic Dermatitus. Quite badly, in fact. I finally found a shampoo after a decade and then some that actually works so that I don't have to wash except every third or fourth day.

The first thing you need to know with this kind of Dermatitus, which IS related to Dandruff is that you must put NOTHING on the scalp skin as this will cause an aggravation and an outbreak.

For readers who do not know how awful this can be, allow me to describe it. First one gets an irritation: a bump, and if it's looked at it is commonly a red bump. (I've never seen it myself but my old hair guru did and this is what he described.) Then the thing begins to itch, and kind of engorges a bit, and it's very much like acne. One is so irritated that one can't help but try to pick it. Typically though, pus does not come out; rather, we have a kind of weeping of a clear fluid, sometimes yellow-ish, if it's been there a while. Then it drains, and then the itchiness becomes almost intolerable and these bumps then can bleed from so much scratching. And picking at them doesn't help, although I can say it does relieve the irritation to get all the fluid out. Then the thing tends to dry over, and crust somewhat, and then the dried skin forms around the beginning of a hair and holds on tight, and can be nearly impossible to get off in an actual shower hair wash. Indeed, I've had times where I've had to take a pair of tweezers and grab a little bit of the dry skin and lift it off, as in peeling it off. The other thing is that the outbreaks tend to occur around the head in the same places over and over again. They tend to outbreak where it's kind of dark and a bit more moist than other areas of the head. I rarely have outbreaks on the very top of my head, or the crown of my head. Instead it outbreaks somewhat around my ears, and one spot at the hairline on the nape of my neck. It also gets a bit dicey at the forehead hairline where my normal part is. It's a cycle, and itching with one's own hands can cause an irritation, and of course, putting something on the scalp skin as in conditioner can be problematic.

There are "degrees" of seriousness of this condition. I've known some who have S.D. that do well with a storebought shampoo, and if they just keep up with shampooing frequently, they're fine. Some do respond to the likes of Tea Tree Oil, but most do not.

I found that shampoos with lots of sulfates in them did a real number on my head. I did visit a dermatologist, and throughout the years I've visited a few, and they seemed to kind of guess in the dark. I've tried Neutrogena products which seriously dried my hair out; T/Gel did about the same. It wasn't til Nizoral was prescribed that I found real relief.

Nizoral comes in two formulas in the U.S. OTC or Over The Counter version which has a little less medication; and prescription strength. The stuff in the US is expensive, but it worked more or less, and for many can work well if they have a lesser degree condition than I do. I eventually could not afford the prescription strength and had to switch to the OTC version.

Meanwhile, I found out about ACV or Apple Cider Vinegar rinse. I found out about the Acid Mantle, and pH balancing, both dietetically and for skin. I then began to use ACV alongside the Nizoral. I also have used Nature's Gate plain formula as at that the time it was the only shampoo I could find that did not have Sulfates. Sodium Laurel Sulfates and Sodium Laureth Sulfate, is how it's written on bottles in the US under Ingredients.

I used to know more about Acid Mantle and pH balancing, but one gets older and other things become more important to keep frontal lobe! LOL So here's a link about info regarding Acid Mantle.

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/03/chemistry-of-skin-ph-and-our-skins-acid.html

Here's a thing about sulfates in shampoos:
http://www.ecofriendlydaily.com/beauty/hair-care/scoop-sulfates-shampoo/

This too is about sulfates:
http://thebeautybrains.com/2007/06/30/sulfates-in-shampoos-what-are-they/

About Seborheic Dermatitas (spelling theirs) There are different ways I see dermatitus spelled on the internet, so I am uncertain of the proper spelling.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001959/


In babies, S.D. is known as "cradle cap" because the oiliness of the outpouring of the sebacious glands kind of forms a hat that can be aggravating and itch. It's more than the usual Acid Mantle brand of a bit of sebum on the scalp skin to form a protective layer on the scalp skin. Whenever I post, I purposefully talk in a way to separate when I mean scalp skin, scalp skin related hair, and hair length, so that people hopefully, clearly, understand what specifically I am talking about. Indeed the S.D. can form a feeling of a cap that kind of tightens down and become highly itchy as the days of non-hairwashing march forward.

When I went with Apple Cider Vinegar, and I now recommend that blondes or lighter colored hair colors choose white, distilled vinegar instead of ACV as the ACV can tinge light colored heads of hair a bit reddish used over a long time. Never use Balsamic Vinegar as this has sugar in it. You can also use lemon juice. Vinegar and lemon rinses are acidic in their nature and shampoos and conditioners applied to the scalp can leave the skin on the alkali end of the pH scale, and using a bit of acid something can tweak things to move toward the acidic end of the pH scale, essentially leaving the scalp skin the way it likes its environment the most: somewhat acidic or at least, neutral, around 6.7/6.8 on the pH scale. Lemon or vinegar rinses are precisely that: a rinse. They are intended to be applied and rinsed out, NOT left in.

I would wash my hair, condition my hair and then use the vinegar or lemon rinse LAST. Most others who don't have my problem can get away with using this rinse between shampooing and conditioning, but I can't. (Now I no longer use any kind of rinse, but I did for a bit over a decade.)

Now I use a safe shampoo, then I simply condition the length ONLY, and rinse super duper well. That's very important.

Back to Vinegar/Lemon Rinsing: The benefits are in a kind of hierarchical order that you need to be familiar with.
1. tweaks the scalp skin back to neutral or a bit more acidic than alkali.
2. This is more of a direction, not a benefit: It is best to not use this undiluted. Don't pour on pure Lemon or Vinegar. It should be diluted, approximately 3 Tablespoons in an 8 oz glass of water. I used to use a fast food biggie cup as I could dip all my hair length in the cup, and pour the remainder over my head, separating hair so this can hit the skin itself. Then rinse off under the shower water.

3. Can remove any product accidentally not rinsed out of the hair. (However, it is not a clarifying recipe as if we have something or buildup that has essentially dried on the hair, ACV/Lemon rinses will not remove it. It only removes what's been applied in THAT specific hair wash. And that's it. To clarify one needs another product or another homemade recipe.

4. It can remove hard water minerals that one's water supply may have -- again, that may adhere to hair in that hair wash only.

5. Lemon rinses smell really nice to most people. Vinegar may have a tiny bit of residual aroma, but once the hair dries, it will not be perceived at all. There are articles on ACV rinses, but being so new, I'm not positive you can see them til after post 100 or 101. LHC has a need for a kind of weeding people out that may be lurkers or harassers, and this is a protective measurement here for ladies to feel more safe to participate. This is one of the more friendly online sites you'll find on the internet.

6. Do not leave a vinegar or lemon rinse in the hair. There's no real reason to do so, and one MAY end up causing their hair to behave a bit funny. I know people leave it in, but I have no idea how this apparently benefits their hair.

7. Lemon or vinegar rinses can leave some people's hair fairly soft, or soft-er. Some people report this experience. I never noticed that myself. But it's commonly touted as a positive.

CONTINUED BELOW...
heidi w.

[heidi w.]

CONTINUED: PART II OF II

So, I don't know if they have Nizoral Shampoo or sulfate-free shampoos available in Zimbabwe, but I imagine you could order something online and have it shipped. Nizoral is an anti-fungal and anti-bacterial shampoo.

It's important to regularly wash the scalp related hair and scalp skin on a somewhat frequent basis to keep after the symptoms, and keep them in some kind of control or under management. There is no known cure of the problem. Some will tell you to attack the diet and work on too much yeast in the body or diet. I've not known of this working or not. There simply is no known cure. It's one of those things that some of us drew the short straw on and have to figure out a way to live with it, and just manage the problem. That's what I do: I manage the problem. I fairly often have an itchy scalp, but nothing as what I used to experience in terms of the ferocity of irritation.

I have learned that S.D. can "creep" as in it can spread. I can have pin dots of acne lining my hairline; it can creep down my forehead, and even occur between my eyes...another fave spot for this to show up. I just have to wash my hair to keep after it.

I have had to learn that I MUST wash my hair detangling tools frequently, such as my wide-tooth comb I MUST wash, and I used to disinfect too, after every single time I washed my hair OR I risk re-infecting myself, essentially. I have had to learn to change or wash the pillowcase so that most of the time I am sleeping on a clean pillowcase. Maximum 2 nights on one side; flip the pillow, 2 night on that side, then wash. And I have to wash in hot water with soap, a detergent that is non-irritating.

I am one who has problems also with skin irritation. So, a friend was very kind and gave me a water softener unit as a house warming gift, and all my house water is softened. The only negative to that is if one's drinking water is softened, it can cause problems for those with heart problems or high blood pressure. So I used to buy water, but more recently my sister gave me an under-the-sink osmosis filter unit to install, and I just have to hire an electrician to get it installed. I have to put in an outlet under the sink. Someday it'll get installed.

If the water is very hard in your area, this can contribute to the irritation with S.D. For that, you can soften the water OR if you don't have the funds or capability, you can go to a hardware store and in the US at least you can purchase a test kit for testing the hardness of one's water, and can purchase a shower head filter that simply screws or easily affixes to the shower head arm that protrudes out of a shower wall. I have no idea what your setup for bathing is, and it can be very different than how we design and do things in the U.S. But try to find a way, even if you have to hinky-dink it to get that water softer that you're washing your hair in.

To wash one's comb I use a bit of my good shampoo, and a scrub nail brush and really scrub the teeth of the comb in warm water. Then I rinse all the soap off of the comb and dry off in a CLEAN towel. I have all my towels white so that it's easy to wash everything in hot water and with a bit of bleach thrown in.

I always clean my sheets in hot water and towels too. I have to be sure the bacteria is off the towels and sheets. Only hot water gets that job done. Warm or cool water does not do the trick.

To disinfect a comb, one can spritz with a combination of rubbing alcohol and water, and rinse off, and wipe the comb dry. One can also put the comb in the top drawer of a dishwasher and the intense heat of a dishwasher and likely the heat cycle of the dishwasher contribute to disinfecting the comb. OR one can acquire a jar that barbers have and Barbicide as its known and stick their comb in this jar. But clean the comb first, if you use the Barbicide method.

I have actually noticed crud buildup on the teeth of combs and on the U area where the teeth meet the bride, and simply scrubbing may not remove this gunk. So I use a wooden toothpick and glide along the edges of the teeth and in the u to clean up the gunk, then clean the comb, and then I may disinfect. I usually do if I notice gunk collections on the comb. I have actually had it where I had freshly washed my hair and kind of re-infected myself with old crud from past trials with S.D. I recall a time where I really learned to really clean that comb: I had about 5 times in a row of washing my hair and then a fresh irritation/outbreak. I finally for some reason looked at my comb, and there was the evidence!! So keep your comb clean.

Also, if you're currently brushing, switch to combing as it's a whole lot easier to clean a comb than a brush. But one can clean a brush too. I Boar Bristle Brush and I have to keep this brush under cover or the ambient dust in the air can collect on this brush.

I have had to switch what I wash my body with. I have to use gel soaps and SLS free soaps. I have to be in softened water. If the softened water leaves you feeling all icky, then there's a balance problem with the setup of the water softener. It should not feel slick. And if you're going through salt pellets overly fast, as in 4-6 months running out of pellets, the settings are off. I fill when it gets a little bit low and reset the volume of pellets setting, but I fill around 4 times a year with one bag. I never allow the supply to become overly low in the water softener unit.

I finally found a product that works for me, but it took a long time. Meanwhile I suffered terribly. Here's one thing to know though: you can shave your head bald, and you will still have SD, so short hair only maybe makes it easier to wash the hair.

I actually scalp wash my hair once-in-a-while versus always full hair washing all this length. It saves me time, I can get a quick clean in a hurry when something suddenly comes up in the schedule.

I have heard of this brown sugar scrub and lots of people seem to like it but it's only that I've merely heard from those without S.D. I have no idea if this will help you or not. I'm not brave enough to try it since an outbreak can take a few weeks to get back under control, if things go awry. I never gave Tea Tree Oil a big chance because it's seriously antibacterial and I have heard of people using too much and having hair loss as a result.

S.D. can lead to hair loss, but it need not be the case long-term.

I hope this post is helpful to you, --
And
WELCOME!!
heidi w.
THE END

[heidi w.]

Well, I am not a doctor and not a specialist in dermatitis... but I had since years (since I was 10, I think) dandruff... and nothing has helped. I could not rule out the reason for it. I have tried so many things, but nothing helped. For a while, Nizoral (or any other shampoo with ketokonazol) helped nicely, but only if I used it during each washing. When I used another shampoo - the problem was back. And later I have noticed that effect of Nizoral is getting weaker and weaker...
During my last vacations on the seashore I have noticed, that my dandruff was gone: I suppose, from sun and sea. That brough me to the idea, that it IS possible to treat it and to solve this problem. And I have tried Tea Tree Oil. Not a shampoo, but the oil. I just add some (5-10) drops of it to the shampoo (directly in the palm, before washing), put it on my sculp, wait 2-5 minutes and then rinse. I could not believed, but it helped from the very first time! And now I just repeat this procedure when needed (once in 2-3 weeks usually) and I am still impressed, that my big problem is gone!
I am not sure that it will help everybody, but it is worth trying it!

For me, the OTC version of Nizoral eventually worked somewhat less well. I fear being an old woman in some kind of assisted living facility because I think they'll wash my hair with crap and cause me all kinds of problems.

Oh well. We'll see what happens.

heidi w.

[heidi w.]

I think it's important to know that all humans have sebum on their skin, on their arms, on their legs, feet, fingers, head, toes, arse...everywhere. It's normal; it's how we come for the most part. Without this little, light film we'd be germ infested beasts. Well, we sort of are. S.D. is a simple condition of too much sebum producing from the sebacious gland that is part of the hair follicle. You can see pictures of what's under the scalp skin in terms of the design of a hair follicle.

http://www.webmd.com/healthy-beauty/picture-of-the-hair
Has a picture of the hair follicle, and clearly shows the sebacious gland noted as "OIL GLAND" in this image.

heidi w.

[heidi w.]

FYI, when I apply conditioner, I do not condition the scalp related hair. I allow sebum to do its own work there. I condition the length however. I lean somewhat forward and sideways and apply my conditioner from approximately the earlobes, at the highest point, on down the length.

I have noticed that if I rely on scalp washing long-term, that I will more than likely have a dirtier scalp skin and stuff I can scrape off of the scalp skin. I don't get the best rinse out in scalp washing. But I can use it mid-week to get me to the end of the week when I have more time to fully wash my hair. During the work week, I generally just need a boost, to clean the scalp related hair but not the length. Oh, and this last time that I scalp washed, I forgot to wash my hair comb. I am not having an outbreak but I can feel there's a bit of gunk building up on my scalp skin, so I will full hair wash this weekend, which is tomorrow!!

I have also noticed that humidity plays a role. I have to wash a bit more frequently in humid weather. Winter is when I don't have flare-ups so bad, although it's cold in the shower.

Ahhh, there's nothing perfect, but I can at least manage things.

I hope that I've been helpful. If you find something that works for you other than what is posted in this thread, feel free to share it. It will work for someone else at some point more than likely. It's all about the degree of seriousness of having this condition.

heidi w.

[lapushka]

Nizoral shampoo is the best! I have the 2% version (prescription strength in the US), and whenever I have a bout of SD (I get this about once a year, around the same time oddly enough), I usually only need to use it once or twice to ease the itching a bit, and about 4 to 5 times total to get rid of it.

[heidi w.]

Nizoral shampoo is the best! I have the 2% version (prescription strength in the US), and whenever I have a bout of SD (I get this about once a year, around the same time oddly enough), I usually only need to use it once or twice to ease the itching a bit, and about 4 to 5 times total to get rid of it.

Evidence of a rather mild case. See, everyone's different in terms of degree of how bad their S.D. is. I'm in the serious group. Mine is pretty much always switched ON.

heidi w.

[ingvild]

Heidi W, thank you for a couple of very informative posts! I have SD too (mild), actually have a flare now... using an anti-fungal, but I definitely need to get better at cleaning my comb! Thanks again :)

[heidi w.]

I forgot to mention that occasionally I scritch with a comb. Overall, those with SD are wise to avoid scratching their head with their fingers, or fingernails to scratch an itch. It just introduces more crud that the SD can do without.

Sometimes I Scritch with a very fine toothed horn comb, and no, it does not pull hair out or cause tangles. Sometimes I just scratch the head lightly, and sometimes I do this process in advance of a hair wash, particularly if I have an outbreak, to lift off gunk piled up on scalp skin.

One can draw all the hair length back, over the top of the head, and then begin in a row that's in front of the head on one or the other side of one's center part, if they like. I kind of do it in rows that somewhat overlap so as to get all the scalp. I have to fold the ears down to get behind the ears.

I divide the hair in half at the back of the head and start from the crown and in overlapping rows scritch at a downward, nearly 45 degree angle, scritch the back of the head down to the side of the head.

Scritching is done with super tiny backandforth motions as one progresses down a row. The hair in SD will show lots and lots of flakes, but in the subequent hair wash all this detris is removed form the hair. It helps to clean the scalp skin even more. I'll likely do it in advance of this weekend's hair wash since I have some buildup on the scalp skin that needs to come off.

One can buy a horn fine-toothed comb off of eBay. It looks somewhat like a large sized doll's doll comb, yet the teeth are really close together.

I wash this comb just as I would my regular wide tooth comb.

heidi w.

[lapushka]

Evidence of a rather mild case. See, everyone's different in terms of degree of how bad their S.D. is. I'm in the serious group. Mine is pretty much always switched ON.

I know. I guess I'm lucky that it's not a constant thing I have to worry about. Can't imagine what it's like when you have a more persistent case of SD. Anyway, I'm just glad the Nizoral is there and that it does what it's supposed to. I'm pretty happy with it.

[Safari_68]

Oh my goodness I did not expect the magnitude of info I would get when i logged in today! Thank you all so much especially you Heidi w. you are a star! I think I will take some time and sit down and read through all of that again to fully absorb the info and comment a bit later or ask questions I just wanted to quickly thank you so much for help, and to know that there are solutions even if they are hard to find.

As for finding medicated shampoos in Zim well that is something I can ask my mother in law but postal services arn't so great here and this is a country having very large issues, I must add I do have very sensitive skin and I find using highly medicated or just strong soaps or shampoos in general give me other problems, if I can find a natural way of managing this I will be most pleased.

I was doing a little reading around online yesterday and quite a few people claim water washing only and no washing at all cleared up their SD dramatically...ticks me off really seeing as I tried this myself and almost went bald! :p

On a side note I do apolagise my reply is quite late...there are a lot of power outtages here in Zim and a few days a week we go without power for up to 18 hours at a time.