A long rantquestion on basics

[selenir]

I've tried to search for what I need on LHC and I couldn't find what I was looking for. I feel bad about making another thread, but I'm somewhat fed up with restraining myself while being lost. I also suspect that, on hindsight, that this post is not going to be taken very well for being too negative and critical.

So I've never had much interest in long hair until at most 2 years ago, and this means that I have little knowledge about longer hair and even more abysmal experience with any hair that is not short. I did look up a bit of hair science (the innards of a cuticle, a bit on the cortex), but I doubt that's enough for actually dealing with hair.

I don't know what terms like flyaway, frizzy hair and dry hair mean, feel or look like. (Forgive me for being pedantic about terms but I'm finding the way some people use these words tend to be too subjective. I know I totally sound uptight but the way hair is described, I find, is too random.) Google helps slightly but mainly the pictures that come up are the "popular" ones. These don't give me a clear idea of what the word I'm looking for really is.

That said, how can I understand what these terms really mean? When someone says, for example, "I have frizzy hair", does this mean it's dry and high volume? Or possibly could it mean that it's rough and poofy?

Putting the terms aside, I've noticed that there has been a lot of experimenting going on to figure out what's best for hair. Experimenting is fine, but there are two problems that I think is sometimes missed. One is observation: people usually notice the problem, some symptoms and guess what might be what they are (not) doing that is causing the problem. I think having everyone know the some more hair theory would make it easier to really accurately and fully observe what's really happening to their hair. There should also be a set number of qualities that more or less fully describes it, like the roughness and shininess. (LHC already has one for length and hair shape) This is to ensure that if we have a fixed, well-known qualities, we won't forget to mention or inspect our hair for, say, how smooth our hair is if we were teasing our hair.

When suggestions are made for others to correct the problem,I think it's too rash to generally offer a suggestion right away, but rather ask questions so that you understand the problem as if it were your own hair, especially for newer members that lack the same experience. After that, offering a suggestion that you think is well understood (possibly what works for you, but given how complex hair seems to get, your suggestion may not work out for them.) would be a good choice.

Experimentation on the problem should only start after any good suggestions are tried, I think.

To those that actually read to the bottom of my post, I hope that it wasn't offending and to be honest, I've rewritten most of the post over and over, feeling that my criticisms are too harsh and possibly wrong, considering the knowledge of members at LHC. Even if it's not great as a criticism, maybe this could be re-written as a guideline? If this thread doesn't seem to be useful, hopefully I can have it deleted without any further shame.

I originally meant this thread to be a question of mine but it seems that it wouldn't fit well considering the weight of the topic. Should I make another thread? :foot:

[fridgee]

I'm not sure what you are actually asking? I think the descriptors have to be subjective because they relate to how people view their own hair. For example what is frizzy to one person may, as you pointed out, just be volume to another, some people want their hair to look that way others don't. :shrug: Same with limp hair and smooth slinky hair, depends what you want for your own hair.

I think some of your criticism is unfounded as I think people do ask questions to find out about someone's hair before giving suggestions and they are normally based on personal experience or from reading the successes/failures of others on the board. I love looking at things scientifically too, but I think with hair everyone's hair reacts so differently that it is hard to find something that works without experimenting/using trial and error (also a scientific method I may add! :p)

[selenir]

I'm not sure what you are actually asking? I think the descriptors have to be subjective because they relate to how people view their own hair. For example what is frizzy to one person may, as you pointed out, just be volume to another, some people want their hair to look that way others don't. :shrug: Same with limp hair and smooth slinky hair, depends what you want for your own hair.

I think some of your criticism is unfounded as I think people do ask questions to find out about someone's hair before giving suggestions and they are normally based on personal experience or from reading the successes/failures of others on the board. I love looking at things scientifically too, but I think with hair everyone's hair reacts so differently that it is hard to find something that works without experimenting/using trial and error (also a scientific method I may add! :p)

It was originally a question... it took me an hour to write; then I decided to cut out my original intent and I guess the question went out the window with it.

Still, even if how you want your hair to be is subjective, the way you describe it should be more or less the same.

I definitely feel that my criticism is unfounded, which is making me feel like I should delete the thread right away but I don't know how.

I'm not saying that experimentation is bad, it's just that the suggestions offered, as you said, come from mostly personal and other experience. At the same time, hair from person to person is affected differently, so unless we understand why one solution works for some people and not for others, I'm not sure it's right to suggest it, unless there doesn't seem to be any other solutions.

[fridgee]

I'm not saying that experimentation is bad, it's just that the suggestions offered, as you said, come from mostly personal and other experience. At the same time, hair from person to person is affected differently, so unless we understand why one solution works for some people and not for others, I'm not sure it's right to suggest it, unless there doesn't seem to be any other solutions.

Well I think people tend to be able to say "such and such is popular with people with your hair type so give it a try". For example curlies often need more moisture, while fine hairs often don't get on well with oil. So it is based on understanding what is needed for different hair, its just not every solution works for everyone.

Don't feel bad about your thread tho, its OK to express you opinion and to change your mind, its always interesting to have a debate :) I'm not sure how you could measure some of the things you've mentioned in a non-subjective way, but maybe some other people can! :flower:

[Signe]

I think you need to keep in mind that this is an internet forum with members from all over the world and all walks of life.
It is not a double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Everyone has their own terminology to describe what they are seeing/ doing to their hair, and that terminology is bound to be extremely variable due to the nature of our member-base. What you see is what you get, and, for better or for worse, you need to try your best to interpret what is there.

If you are having a problem with your own hair and you don't feel someone has answered stuff specifically enough for you, either ask them directly to explain what they mean by a certain term or phrase, or trawl through more posts til you find something that better matches what you are looking for/ what you understand.

Since I find the search function on this site infuriatingly inadequate, I tend to go on google and type in " site:longhaircommunity.com" followed by the search term that I want. For example, I am a fine hair who does Water Only (WO) cleansing. If i want specific information pertaining to that subject, i will go search " site:longhaircommunity.com WO fine hair". This will bring up only related posts on this forum.

Hope this helps!

[Anje]

I know what you're saying, but as others have stated, many of these terms are highly subjective. When my hair feels rough and unusually coarse to me, someone with coarser hair (different cuticle structure and all) might touch it and still find it fine and silky, and wonder what I'm complaining about. My hair feels fairly slick if I pinch a section between my fingers and run them down the length; someone with very curly hair would find their hair might not due to it having a more irregular shape.

Frizz is a relatively easy to define for you, though. Frizz is generally when you have hairs that don't stay with a lock of hair, but stick out somehow. Curlies in particular tend to get lots of frizz -- they can get nice coherent locks of hair, but there will be individuals that aren't part of those solid curls and simply float up to make the whole look less defined and cloud-like.

When you're not sure and want to illustrate what you're talking about with your hair, it's usually easiest to post a picture of your hair. Then we can see what's going on, instead of relying solely on this clunky thing we call language. (As a noobie, you probably can't upload pics yet directly. Just use your usual photo hosting site, like photobucket, imgur, etc.)

[bumblebums]

Selenir, the reason terms like "frizz" might be a mystery to you is because you classified yourself as type 1a, and people with naturally straight hair do not usually experience it.

[Johanna]

When I try something like a new oil and I post about it one thread I try to remember to post what my hair is and it's current state is as well, that way it will be of more value to everyone else.
I think a lot of people here are aware of other peoples hair (texture/coarseness/pre-existing damage) can be completely different to their own. Which is why we have different threads like 'growing out the dye' 'curly girl' 'fine hairs unite' etc if you're looking to speak to peopel who have more 'specialised' experience and may have experimented with things that would work for you.

I'm no entirely sure what you're trying to argue against?

[bumblebums]

I definitely feel that my criticism is unfounded, which is making me feel like I should delete the thread right away but I don't know how.


(A little off-topic, I know, but rules are sometimes hard to find.) On this forum, major editing of posts or deletion of posts is actually against the rules. :blossom: You should be able to edit typos in your posts or post additional thoughts to an existing post once you have 25 posts.

[Johanna]

Selenir, the reason terms like "frizz" might be a mystery to you is because you classified yourself as type 1a, and people with naturally straight hair do not usually experience it.
I'm a 1c and definitely don't know what frizz is after seeing the curlies brushed out thread lol. I have no complaints anymore about a tiny bit of volume.

[selenir]

fridgee, I did notice that, after re-reading that mess I wrote, that I didn't make any direct criticism to the community; I didn't mean to say that the community doesn't ask questions but maybe more questions could be asked.

Signe, I do understand that LHC isn't some sort of scientific study and yes, I was somewhat dissatisfied at some of the advice I recieved at some point (but for those who helped me on my other threads, it was really my fault that I didn't get the help I needed). But even if the terminology that members use have different meanings in different eyes, LHC still has a way to describe hair waviness, hair length, hair thickness and possibly others that I don't know of. Why shouldn't we be able to talk about other qualities of hair like "frizziness" in a similar way?

As an aside, I can see you're distressed by my statements that seem to describe an 'idealization of LHC' and I'd like to say that I have nowhere that strong of an opinion. I'm working on rephrasing my first post and asking for it to be edited so it doesn't give this impression.

[YewneekDoll]

It was hard enough for me to type my hair, i think if i had to learn new definitions or
"levels" of frizziness that would make it even harder. It all is very subjective but i don't
think there is any way for it to not be, or for there to be a standardized anything when it
comes to haircare. The list goes on and on for the variables that can make one 1a type
hair different from the next, length, damage, color, scalp conditions, daily routines,
climate, body chemistry, on and on and on. Even as many members here use oil to
control frizz, you would be hard pressed to find two who do it the same way, before/ after
wash, in sections, all at once, or little by little, just the ends or all over, the style
afterwards, type of oil. Even if there were guidelines for that sort of stuff it would still be
left up to the person to be interpreted. It can be frustrating i know but the only way to
figure it out is to dive in and learn from others experiences but also experiment on
yourself and see what works.

[Chromis]

If I am reading into what you were originally wanting to ask correctly, you'd like some LHC Basics for hair care, correct? In that case, take a look in the articles section. There are fantastic articles for basic handling, hair typing, washing methods and so forth. You can find this resource in the middle of the top bar if you scroll back up to the top of the page.

[SpinDance]

I don't really see a question, which I understand is the end result of edits. I do feel that you have some frustration with lack of precise use of language. I think part of the issue has already been addressed. Each of us tries to use words to explain what we experience with our hair or our opinions about hair and haircare. I have just enough wave to get lots of frizz (hairs that curl their own way, not with any other hairs in nice, smooth locks). Not enough waves to really look wavy, just enough to not ever be or look straight. Just frizzy, 'poofy' and other such non-specific words. In my air dried typing photos it looks stringy. Once it is combed at all it poofs out. Lots and lots of words trying to describe what I see, experience and feel. Someone else would probably use very different words for the same things.

The other challenge we have here is that no one thing works for everyone. Wouldn't that make things easy? :) "Here, do this list of things and your hair will be perfect." Not the way it works. Something that makes me like the way my hair behaves or feels may make someone elses hair or skin/scalp act in a completely different way.

There are articles that explain terms in the Articles section, and I do think it helps for us to use those terms in the defined way. For example, the term tailbone (TB) and BCL seem to often be confused, particularly by newer members. Tailbone is the very end of that little bone at the end of your spine. It is at least a couple inches below the length of the top of your 'vertical smile'. This is one reason pictures help. If someone has a picture with their hand showing where they want their hair, and it shows BCL, even if they use the term TB, you'll know what they actually mean.

Is there something specific that you are trying to find out about having or caring for longer hair?

[Signe]

fridgee, I did notice that, after re-reading that mess I wrote, that I didn't make any direct criticism to the community; I didn't mean to say that the community doesn't ask questions but maybe more questions could be asked.

Signe, I do understand that LHC isn't some sort of scientific study and yes, I was somewhat dissatisfied at some of the advice I recieved at some point (but for those who helped me on my other threads, it was really my fault that I didn't get the help I needed). But even if the terminology that members use have different meanings in different eyes, LHC still has a way to describe hair waviness, hair length, hair thickness and possibly others that I don't know of. Why shouldn't we be able to talk about other qualities of hair like "frizziness" in a similar way?

As an aside, I can see you're distressed by my statements that seem to describe an 'idealization of LHC' and I'd like to say that I have nowhere that strong of an opinion. I'm working on rephrasing my first post and asking for it to be edited so it doesn't give this impression.

Aww hun I wasn't distressed at all! Just trying to explain the vagueness of this site and offer some solutions on how to better navigate it. Sorry if it came across that way... seems as though writing can be just as inadequate when it comes to expression of tone and feeling as it is with hair! :p

[holothuroidea]

If you have a question about your hair just ask it and we will answer it as best we can. If our answer isn't adequate you can rephrase and ask again or you can visit a trichologist. I would avoid asking a stylist unless it is specifically a long-hair salon because they have a vested interest in cutting your hair.

If you are feeling discouraged about your hair tell us and we will give you as much encouragement as we can (which is usually quite a lot!).

That's what this place is for. Most of us are not experts except for our own experience (although some have so much experience that they are, indeed, experts. We also do have some hair stylists here, too) so all of the advice is going to be subjective. This community exists for people to gather as a community with a common goal. We help as best we can, and encourage each other.

I hope this post was helpful for you, and I hope that you will ask your question so we can try our best to help!

As far as the terms you mentioned... Your hair is coarse so you probably don't get flyaways, which generally happen to fine hair. I get them all the time because my hair is so light it sometimes literally just floats away. Your hair is straight so you probably don't get frizz, which is what happens to wurly/curly hair when the curls don't form defined clumps. But yes, the terms are subjective and somewhat ill-defined. Just like a school bus might be yellow to one person an orange to another, it's just a matter of perspective. :flower:

[swearnsue]

"Hair" isn't an exact science. Too bad, it would make things alot easier! There are many times when I want things to be exact and measurable but hair, like life, is messy.

[spidermom]

I notice that you are very new. The terms used and the advice given are often confusing to new people, but as you participate more and read more, you will be less confused, even though your own definitions and interpretations may be quite different. For example, to me frizz is what you get with extremely damaged hair, like after a bad perm or too much bleaching. The entire hair shaft is swollen and the structure is compromised. It feels rough and has lost its shine. What a lot of people here call frizz is what I would call "halo," "fluff," "fly-aways," or "pouf" - the shorter, often curlier hairs that stick out and disrupt the otherwise smooth flow of hair that is in good condition.

You will notice that when people post describing a problem and asking for suggestions, other people will request a picture of what the poster is talking about. We all try to help based on our personal understanding, which can result in a lot of different suggestions - a few of which are bound to be helpful.

[heidi w.]

Your concerns and confusions are typical newbie problems. What does this or that word actually mean? What does hair look like when that word is used?

Unless you're a trichologist, some of this stuff will be unknown to you. Further, if you have not had these kind of issues, such as the usual longhaired beginner experience of kind of oily-ish scalp hair yet the length or the ends are dry....then maybe you have great hair and know more than you think?

There's a lot to learn. You could begin with understanding the Acid Mantle and what sebum is, and what it's benefit is. There's plenty of info online about this, and this is the starting point of great hair care. Then there's knowing the cycle of how hair grows.

Even dry hair, for example, has a look. It's dull in hue (it doesn't shine); it's kind of fluffy and kind of flies about on its own without the help of wind. It's dry and looks a bit like what we describe as "straw". It's visibly noticeable that it's dry. And it's generally fixable by using a great conditioner, possibly combined with the use of a leave-in conditioner OR the use of oiling the length.

BUT that can be set against the idea that a person has coarse hair, which many curlier hair types often possess. Curlier hair does tend to be a bit coarser and thereby a bit drier seemingly, if one compares to say a straight hair type.

These terms overall are comparitive in nature.

You seem to be suggesting that everyone post if they only know what they're talking about, or if they have that hair type. That's never going to happen because people very often do not know what they do not know. I generally lean away from helping wavy/curly haired folks as I am not well-versed in this hair type, but I have learned a few things which might be a solution for these hair types, and may prove helpful to them.

The question of terminology is a big one on a long hair board. Names do matter. All we have on a hair board are words. That's the communication device available to us in this medium.

Anyway, what is your question? And WELCOME to LHC!!
heidi w.

[heidi w.]

If I am reading into what you were originally wanting to ask correctly, you'd like some LHC Basics for hair care, correct? In that case, take a look in the articles section. There are fantastic articles for basic handling, hair typing, washing methods and so forth. You can find this resource in the middle of the top bar if you scroll back up to the top of the page.

I thought a person with fewer than 100 posts, and this OP has 6 posts so far, can't see a number of sections of this site, and I thought articles was one of them?

Maybe I misunderstood. It's possible! LOL
heidi w.

[holothuroidea]

I thought a person with fewer than 100 posts, and this OP has 6 posts so far, can't see a number of sections of this site, and I thought articles was one of them?

Maybe I misunderstood. It's possible! LOL
heidi w.

The articles are visible even to people who are not members. At least I remember reading them before I became a member.

Also, RE: Frizz, dryness, flyaways, etc. Maybe someone should build a glossary so we can agree on definitions! What Spidermom describes as frizz I would just call "damage." I thought frizz was something that happened to healthy hair. Also I thought that the hair halo was exclusively from broken hairs or new growth. :dizzy:

[tokitoki]

Selenir, as both a newbie and an engineer, I think I understand exactly where you are coming from. Subjective analysis of results are so unreliable (for example, amazon reviews of hair supplements in which they gush how the condition of the entire length of their hair has improved in only a week! note- I know LHC reviews are generally better informed) and make comparisons between methods difficult. The fact that each method can have different results based on your own hair, and that very few methods are standardized, means that you would have to try each thing, on its own, for a significant period of time in order to find what is best for your hair. And even then, without a very clear metric of grading the results from each experiment, it could be hard to determine what actually made a difference or made the best difference.
However, I think this sort of rigorous analysis is impractical and sometimes impossible for LHCers. However, it is possible to some degree with a combination of lab tests and user reviews, as shown by Good Housekeeping's hair product reviews:

4. In the Beauty Lab, scientists and engineers separated almost nine pounds of human hair, ordered from hair suppliers, into 736 swatches — brown for hair-care products (which were then bleached to inflict damage), 100% gray for permanent haircolor testing, and gray blends for demi-permanent color testing. Our lab team assessed the performance of the hair treatments on the swatches using state-of-the-art equipment: an Instron, a mechanical measuring device fitted with a comb to record the amount of friction experienced when it moved through a wet or dry hair swatch (less resistance means more protection against breakage); a custom-built shine cylinder situated under a bank of specialized lights so that each swatch could be judged under exactly the same conditions; a swatch wash station to deliver water at a controlled temperature and speed; and an Accelerated Weathering Tester that blasted swatches with UV light to assess how likely it was that haircolor would fade in the sun. They also performed technical shine measurements on a Samba HVASS device located at the Textile Research Institute (TRI) in Princeton, NJ.
5. After 11 months of research, we tallied 1,055 questionnaires and 2,716 lab measurements, and read hundreds of tester comments. Now we're unveiling these 17 winners. Consider your bad hair days numbered!
Unfortunately, this sort of analysis would likely be limited to commercial products, as the only reason to invest so much into something would be to SELL something as a result (and recoup your investment and then some), so I don't find it likely that we will be seeing these sorts of reviews for the methods popular on LHC anytime soon.
So, in my own rather inexperienced opinion, I think the best we can do is find some ideas that we think would work well with our lifestyles and sound likely to provide results, and once you find something that makes you feel better about your hair, go with it. I don't think you can ever be 100% sure that what you're doing is the best for your hair, but you just need to find something that works.
Sorry that this was super long!

[tokitoki]

On second thought, Good Housekeeping only needs to sell magazines, not products, so maybe if enough people wrote in asking for them to review "At home" solutions like vinegar rinses and oils and compare them to commercial products, they would give it a shot?

[spidermom]

You may find it useful to find people with similar hair type to you who have great-looking hair and try the routine they use. That's how I started.

[Chromis]

I thought a person with fewer than 100 posts, and this OP has 6 posts so far, can't see a number of sections of this site, and I thought articles was one of them?

Maybe I misunderstood. It's possible! LOL
heidi w.

I checked the terms of service to make sure and didn't see the articles mentioned, just the restricted boards (although I know seeing profiles and the ability to edit is restricted by post count as well).

I tried logging off to make certain and yep, I can see the articles just fine!

[Madora]

The articles are visible even to people who are not members. At least I remember reading them before I became a member.

Also, RE: Frizz, dryness, flyaways, etc. Maybe someone should build a glossary so we can agree on definitions! What Spidermom describes as frizz I would just call "damage." I thought frizz was something that happened to healthy hair. Also I thought that the hair halo was exclusively from broken hairs or new growth. :dizzy:

It would really be helpful if a pictorial chart (using different hair textures) could be included..showing the frizzies, fuzzies, and any other "frizzy" designations.

[holothuroidea]

It would really be helpful if a pictorial chart (using different hair textures) could be included..showing the frizzies, fuzzies, and any other "frizzy" designations.

That's an excellent idea!

[selenir]

Having not gone in two days makes it really hard for me to respond to all the thoughts :P

First, to start, everyone's reply on how describing hair is subjective is really becoming more more apparent to me. Still, I think that even if our hair is up to our own interpretation on what it should look like, the words we use should mean the same, from person to person. For example, the problem with words like football in American and British English can be easily be seen. Without context which football is being talked about can either lead to misunderstandings and explaining what you mean by it every time defeats the purpose of using the word at all.

Already I can see that SpinDance sees the word frizz as "hairs that curl their own way, not with any other hairs in nice, smooth locks" whereas spidermom says "the shorter, often curlier hairs that stick out and disrupt the otherwise smooth flow of hair that is in good condition."

I'm thinking that having a (possibly, as suggested, a visual one!) glossary for these words that seem to be used quite often should made, and that if we all agree the words in that glossary, it will help, as many of you have said, a place where words (and sometimes pictures) is the only way we can communicate.

heidi, I'm not trying to say that people would need to know everything. I meant to say that at least people should understand the whole situation, although I'm not accusing anyone at all, since I haven't spent enough time here to say that. Oh, and I can see articles [: I also think I'll make a new thread for my hair problem when I'm ready, since this thread already seems to be loaded with its own topic.

tokitoki, I find your... finding, for a lack of ability to find another word at the moment, quite interesting. Some useful information might be able to summarised from threads where members join together to perform a new activity, although in a less controlled and more subjective way, which, I think, happens already. I'm not sure about how the summaries of those turn out since I have yet to look at any of them myself.

spidermom, like I said, it's confusing to have people use a word in different ways, and even if I start to understand what others are saying with experience, I'm sure other new members would end up facing the same difficulty. At the comment of trying what works for someone that I share hair types with, that probably would be a good idea. I'll have to try it myself to see how it goes before I can say anything about it.

I'm sorry for jumping the gun as a new member on my first criticisms, it seems as though I've missed a lot by not having enough experience here.