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sunny_rae2
March 21st, 2012, 07:46 PM
For a little more than a month now, I've been CO. I clarified before I made the switch (the clarifier seemed to strip my hair and make it dry, but it's recovered as far as I can tell) and every week and a half or so, oil won't wash out of my hair or at least it'll feel greasy so I'll shampoo with L'oreal Vive Pro and then continue like normal with my CO routine. I also oil the length after it dries to protect it.

The problem is that nearly every time I scratch my head, white residue cakes under my nails. Not a ton but enough to see. Sometimes there are little white pieces in my hair, not exactly flakes but kind of.
I don't know if this is dandruff or buildup or if my scalp is dry or what!

Once or twice a week before I wash, I'll oil my scalp with coconut oil and sleep on it, then CO it out in the morning.
I wash my hair every other day or so.
And I just did my first SMT last night!

So what should I try? More moisture? Clarifying? I'm not sure where to start or what else to try.

turtlelover
March 21st, 2012, 07:49 PM
I get that when I CO for awhile. Once in awhile, I throw some non-sulfate shampoo into the rotation, and it seems to get rid of it. I've never had to clarify to remove it.

Anje
March 21st, 2012, 09:25 PM
I think you're just experiencing a little more sebum left on the scalp than you got when you were washing with shampoo all the time. I get some of that too, if I scrape at my scalp with my fingernails, but my hair looks fine and grows fine and I don't have scalp acne or flakes resulting from it, even if I continue without shampooing (which drys my scalp). So honestly, I'd tell you not to worry about it unless you get a thick layer or if you start getting dandruff. Just leave it alone, or occasionally massage your scalp, then smooth your fingers over your ends. It's just a slightly less clean scalp, which in my case is a happy, non-tight, non-dry scalp.

Safira
March 21st, 2012, 09:47 PM
Can you leave the oiling? Just oil the ends?
Sometimes you have to use sulfate-free/sulfate shampoo to get all residue off.

Babyjolie
March 21st, 2012, 10:22 PM
It just sounds like a little residue, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I get that too. Sometimes if it's too much to handle, I'll just break the cycle & shampoo. The main this is listening to what your hair/scalp want.

caadam
March 21st, 2012, 10:28 PM
Sounds like some residue, a tiny bit of buildup. It happens. Is the residue waxy, oily? If it's kind of powdery, it's most likely buildup. In that case, you could always switch to a more clarifying conditioner, and also massage more carefully at your scalp when in the shower. I used to be on a CO routine for months, and once I got the hang of how to massage my scalp and what kind of conditioner worked best for me, I didn't really have to deal with buildup. :) Sometimes, but definitely not a lot. lol

Goodwyfe
March 21st, 2012, 10:41 PM
I used to have scalp buildup and flakes, but since I've gone completely cone-free, it has essentially disappeared. For me, using all cone-free products is essential when I'm CO washing.

sycamoreboutiqu
March 21st, 2012, 11:03 PM
Some scalp issues here too, but I have had it for years when I was using regular shampoo too. In fact it was much worse then and I was shampooing 3x more frequently than I now CO wash.

If it is waxy or itchy it may have a fungal/yeast connection - I have decided that is probably what the cause of mine is since it greatly improves right after doing a root touch-up using a commercial hair color. I am sure the Ammonia content of the color eradicates the growth. I am experimenting this week with a Tea Tree scalp treatment. Basically Tea Tree oil and liquid Aloe or Aloe Gel left on the scalp for awhile before CO'ing. Did one this morning - scalp feels good. Now to see if it lasts.

ravenreed
March 21st, 2012, 11:08 PM
I get that when I use shampoo. The next day I always wake up with flakes and dry skin build up on my scalp. Otherwise, I do get a bit of gunk on my scalp over time, but I am able to scritch that off. The other thing that really helped was ACV rinses.

sfgirl
March 21st, 2012, 11:20 PM
You have fine hair, and also it is not very curly. Perhaps CO might not be for you. It might be, I'm not trying to discourage, but I have fine hair, and I can not CO. I don't get residues, but my hair is just very limp. Not dirty, just limp.
Perhaps you might want to switch to a non sulphate shampoo.
What is your reason for CO? I know I switched of sulphates because they made my hair frizzy, and I had to use a conditioner, and a leave in filled with cones to calm the stupid SLS. :/

ludwig20
March 21st, 2012, 11:29 PM
Sounds like residue. When I had that problem, I decided to use sulfate-free shampoo followed by diluted vinegar rinse. Honestly, I think the biggest problem was that I didn't cleanse my scalp thoroughly. Make sure you rinse completely, too. HTH.

blondie9912
March 22nd, 2012, 07:48 AM
I get that, as well. Try mixing brown sugar with a sulfate-free shampoo to make a paste, and scrub your scalp with it during your next wash. This shouldn't dry your hair out whatsoever

ktani
March 22nd, 2012, 08:22 AM
If you are concerned you can get it checked out and I recommend that as opposed to worrying. It may just be dry skin or residue or fungal dandruff.

It it is the latter, it needs treatment.

See my latest blog post below, too.

sunny_rae2
March 22nd, 2012, 08:42 AM
Thank you everyone for the answers!

I think this somewhat addresses everyone's questions-
I had the white scratch-off stuff before I started COing. At the beginning of this year, I used to shampoo/condish my hair every day and use mouse to scrunch it. I don't remember specifically any white stuff during this "normal" routine, but it seems like I had little white things in my hair sometimes. I didn't really pay much attention to my scalp or hair.

Then I switched to baking soda/ACV(+ tea tree eo) rinsing and did that every other day. I noticed more specifically that I still had the white stuff.
I started only using shampoo after that, the "Yes to Carrots" shampoo that I believe is fairly natural, not sure of the exact content. This I believe made my scalp flakier, which was probably dryness from no conditioner, not sure what I was thinking.

Now I do CO. I first started it after I had oiled my hair, and saw the blog post about using conditioner to remove oil. It worked flawlessly and I've done CO ever since. I haven't really noticed that my hair is way softer or more healthy, but overall I know it is better off than when I was using regular shampoo and condish everyday with mousse. And I've gotten compliments on the growth. It doesn't weigh my hair down and my hair gets greasy every two days (so I can go a full day after a wash and then clean it the next day).
All my conditioners are VO5, Nature's Gate or Juice Organics (healthy natural pomegranate stuff I bought online). These should all be cone-free. I did just check and the shampoo that I use every once in awhile has sulfate :/

When I oil, I only oil from the ears down and try to keep it minimal so it doesn't look greasy. Unless it's an overnight treatment during which I oil my scalp.

After using SMT, I've thought about trying honey as a cleanser for my scalp/face. Anyone have experience with that?

blondie9912- thanks, I'll have to try that! It sounds great.
sycamoreboutiqu- that's interesting, if the problem persists I'll try a tea tree treatment.

I'll have to try massaging my scalp a little longer.
I would say the residue is more waxy.. ish, but white.
And sometimes I do get pimples near my hairline (under the hair) :oops:

ktani
March 22nd, 2012, 09:56 AM
I would say the residue is more waxy.. ish, but white.
And sometimes I do get pimples near my hairline (under the hair) :oops:

That sounds like conditioner residue and a reaction to something in the product(s) you are using. This has been reported before in both cases.

See this video, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=90642. It is very good in my opinion.

heidi w.
March 22nd, 2012, 11:21 AM
For a little more than a month now, I've been CO. I clarified before I made the switch (the clarifier seemed to strip my hair and make it dry, but it's recovered as far as I can tell) and every week and a half or so, oil won't wash out of my hair or at least it'll feel greasy so I'll shampoo with L'oreal Vive Pro and then continue like normal with my CO routine. I also oil the length after it dries to protect it.

The problem is that nearly every time I scratch my head, white residue cakes under my nails. Not a ton but enough to see. Sometimes there are little white pieces in my hair, not exactly flakes but kind of.
I don't know if this is dandruff or buildup or if my scalp is dry or what!

Once or twice a week before I wash, I'll oil my scalp with coconut oil and sleep on it, then CO it out in the morning.
I wash my hair every other day or so.
And I just did my first SMT last night!

So what should I try? More moisture? Clarifying? I'm not sure where to start or what else to try.

If you're having greasy scalp skin, and getting gunk from the scalp skin after a fresh hair wash, then it means you're putting too much crap on your scalp skin. Sebum is enough. Let it do its job. Just apply all this stuff to the hair length. I also suspect that you are applying too much oil to the hair length, based on your description of how frequently you have to clarify to get the oil to wash out when shampooing.

By the way, clarify does EXACTLY what you describe. It strips the hair completely bare naked unless you put back in what has been removed. Hair will be dry, kind of brittle feeling, perhaps fly-away or frizzy or pooofy in response, UNLESS one conditions the hair as part of the clarifying process. That's what clarifying means: strip the hair naked.

I also suspect you're not entirely thoroughly washing the hair in warm enough water, and you may not be applying enough applications of shampoo. Most people need a minimum of 2 applications of shampoo when hair washing. Hair washing, in my mind, is a misnomer. One needs to cleanse the scalp skin MORE than wash the hair, really. It's a hygienic practice to maintain healthy skin; hair is second, it seems to me. (I also have a terrible condition of Seborrheic Dermatitus which means one has an overproduction of sebum, and can have very nasty, vicous outbreaks that can in fact be somewhat painful. And for this reason, I do not apply anything but shampoo to my scalp skin and related hair. No conditioning of the scalp skin; no oiling, zip!!) I wonder that you are not sufficiently cleaning the scalp skin and rinsing stuff out well enough.

I actually scratch my scalp skin with my fingernails a bit to lift the crud off of my scalp skin. Often enough I scritch my hair prior to a hair wash to loosen detris and get the gunk to lift out of my hair, and I've had to up the temperature of the water to get a good cleansing.

I don't know if this helps, but I hope it is helpful.
heidi w.

heidi w.
March 22nd, 2012, 11:25 AM
That sounds like conditioner residue and a reaction to something in the product(s) you are using. This has been reported before in both cases.

See this video, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=90642. It is very good in my opinion.

I agree. I don't suspect this is actual dandruff. I suspect this is product that is not being rinsed out somehow.

The first application of shampoo merely loosens the surface tension that has built up because of the blending of sebum, dirt, skin cells, and any products put on. The first application of shampoo allows for the loosening, but doesn't get stuff off of the hair. The second application actually cleanses the hair. You likely notice subsequent applications of shampoo are more sudsy than the initial application.

If you try washing the hair better, and that still doesn't work, and you try ceasing putting all this stuff on your scalp skin, and that doesn't work, then it's time to visit a dermatologist for a diagnosis of dandruff or something else. It's difficult to diagnose dandruff with words because not all white flakes equal dandruff yet dandruff is always a case of white flakes.

heidi w.

heidi w.
March 22nd, 2012, 11:28 AM
Then I switched to baking soda/ACV(+ tea tree eo) rinsing and did that every other day. I noticed more specifically that I still had the white stuff.

Notice to LHC folks: Do NOT wash the hair with Baking Soda. It is not to be used as a shampoo. This is somewhat damaging to hair. Pleeeze stop using baking soda as a hair shampoo method. It's for CLARIFYING, and that's it. Clarifying is not to be done on a regular basis. One does this as needed. When I did it, I did it perhaps every third month at most, possibly as little as once a quarter which translates to 4 times a year. Do NOT wash the hair with Baking Soda. Bad idea.

heidi w.

heidi w.
March 22nd, 2012, 11:46 AM
I'll have to try massaging my scalp a little longer.
I would say the residue is more waxy.. ish, but white.
And sometimes I do get pimples near my hairline (under the hair) :oops:

That is sebum, pure and simple. Everyone after not washing hair for a few days in a row, will be able to scrape a bit of sebum off of the scalp skin. Sebum serves a very IMPORTANT function for the integrity of the scalp skin. IN FACT, all human skin has sebum -- even our arms and our toes!! It's just a bit less than on the scalp skin, that's all.

Sebum is a production from the sebacious gland that is adjunct to the hair follicle and root and is a WAXY ESTER that kind of coats the scalp skin to maintain the integrity of the scalp skin's health and as part of the Acid Mantle, which is a mix of sweat and sebum to maintain the health of the scalp skin. We don't want all this dirt that's floating in the air in our hair follicles, so the Good Lord gave us sebum as a kind of catcher of this crud in the ambient air.

And when we scrape it off, it is white or white-ish. It's usually more white than white-ish. It should not be beige and particularly not yellow. If it's yellow we have a serious infection of some kind that needs to be looked at and dealt with. If it stinks and has a pungent odor that is somewhat strong we also have a problem. Most cannot go much longer than 5-7 days without washing the hair. Everyone's sebum production is unique. I, for one, and as an example, have a LOT of sebum production. So much so that I have a condition known as Seborrheic Dermatitus that has outbreaks in usually the same places, such as the top of the head, particularly the side of my head in front of my ears, and at the back of the hairline near the nape of the neck I experience repetitive outbreaks. They begin as red bumps of aggravation, and eventually erupt and leak this clear or yellowy tinged fluid that eventually can itch terribly which leads to bleeding, then crusts over, and on it goes, UNLESS it's washed and washed well, as in everything is rinsed out of the hair.

I am also super big on keeping hair detangling tools, particularly very clean. I wash my wide-toothed comb every single time I wash my hair, whether a scalp wash or a full hair wash. That comb is CLEAN!!!

So, if one can on occasion lift a little bit of sebum and roll it into a waxy white ball, it's really not a big deal. It's somewhat normal.

What's not sounding normal, in this post, is that it's happening a fair amount which suggests you're not washing the hair really effectively. There should be no need to do all this clarifying every couple of weeks or so. That should at most be necessary around every third month, and I'm suggesting that applying all this (I'm sorry to be rude about it but) crap to your scalp skin, without necessarily realizing a benefit, is sounding a bit overkill and pretty much unnecessary. Let sebum do its job. It's already there and doesn't need any help from you, really.

I know I'm opinionated and coming on pretty strong. But honestly, I do not know WHY people are putting stuff on their scalp skin without having a true reason of evidence for doing so. For the most part, people do not need to do this, and it's kind of a waste of time and effort and resources, in a certain percent of the cases. I am aware that some people have truly dry scalp skin and may need a little bit of help, but all what the OP is describing as putting on her scalp sounds like it's doing a bit more harm or at least more work for no real reason.

You see, unless there is a clear reason to do X I generally do not advocate doing X. I need a reason, not a well, so&so is doing it. Hair care for the most part is essentially fairly basic for most. Wash the hair, condition at least the length, maybe a leave-in or oiling, and that's about it. Leave it alone after that. But let sebum do its job.

heidi w.

sunny_rae2
March 22nd, 2012, 12:00 PM
What's not sounding normal, in this post, is that it's happening a fair amount which suggests you're not washing the hair really effectively. There should be no need to do all this clarifying every couple of weeks or so. That should at most be necessary around every third month, and I'm suggesting that applying all this (I'm sorry to be rude about it but) crap to your scalp skin, without necessarily realizing a benefit, is sounding a bit overkill and pretty much unnecessary. Let sebum do its job. It's already there and doesn't need any help from you, really.

heidi w.

So should I be shampooing my hair instead of CO washing?
If I shampoo the scalp without using conditioner afterwards won't that make it extremely dry, especially the hair on my scalp?
It takes a bit of effort for me to massage anything onto my scalp because my hair is pretty thick.
And I don't "clarify" it specifically, I just use a normal shampoo every week and a half or something. It's not a specifically clairfying shampoo, the one I do use is Joico K-pak and use it very very rarely.

sunny_rae2
March 22nd, 2012, 12:05 PM
If you're having greasy scalp skin, and getting gunk from the scalp skin after a fresh hair wash, then it means you're putting too much crap on your scalp skin. Sebum is enough. Let it do its job. Just apply all this stuff to the hair length. I also suspect that you are applying too much oil to the hair length, based on your description of how frequently you have to clarify to get the oil to wash out when shampooing.

heidi w.

If I only apply the "stuff", conditioner, to my length, then it doesn't remove whatever it is that makes my scalp look greasy. It looks greasy about every two days which is when I massage conditioner into my scalp and length and ends and leave it on for ~an hour and rinse it out (and "scritch" my scalp, I think that's what it's called).
The other thing is that my length is barely ever dirty. Occassionally when I oil (to protect the hair and keep it from tangling and messing each other up, like I've read) I overoil on accident but other than that (or accidentally dropping food in my hair... negatives of having long hair! Haha) my length isn't ever really "dirty".

Does this mean I shouldn't use SMT to moisturize my scalp if sebum is good enough?

I guess I'm pretty confused!

sunny_rae2
March 22nd, 2012, 12:09 PM
Also I will readily admit that I probably don't spend enough time rinsing in the shower. And I don't comb my hair when it's wet because I read on this site that the hair is more stretchy wet and more prone to damage.
The residue that is coming off when I scratch can't be rolled up into a "waxy ball". It just disintegrates when I rub it.
It's not like the residue is visible, my hair looks normal, but I want to know if I'm doing something wrong and it does bother me that white stuff scratches off my head.

heidi w.
March 22nd, 2012, 12:23 PM
If I only apply the "stuff", conditioner, to my length, then it doesn't remove whatever it is that makes my scalp look greasy. It looks greasy about every two days which is when I massage conditioner into my scalp and length and ends and leave it on for ~an hour and rinse it out (and "scritch" my scalp, I think that's what it's called).
The other thing is that my length is barely ever dirty. Occassionally when I oil (to protect the hair and keep it from tangling and messing each other up, like I've read) I overoil on accident but other than that (or accidentally dropping food in my hair... negatives of having long hair! Haha) my length isn't ever really "dirty".

Does this mean I shouldn't use SMT to moisturize my scalp if sebum is good enough?

I guess I'm pretty confused!

To remove scalp stuff, I AM saying use some kind of shampoo, and on the length too (let scalp shampoo glide down the hair lenght to wash the length, don't make a specific application of shampoo perhaps on the length). But it sounds as though you have a few problems at the same time, to me, anyway.

1. You're applying stuff to your scalp skin that may not be necessary.

2. You're possibly applying stuff to the length too much or too heavily, and therefore can't get it out.

3. You're resorting to clarifying to resolve everything. (There's a chance that you are working with an oil that isn't the best for your hair type, but that's a separate problem, and somewhat easy to resolve. Let's focus on solving the greasies or whatever it is in the scalp related hair first.)

I am saying solve the problem you have. Don't try more stuff to solve a problem, which can increase a problem or aggravate an existing problem. I'm trying to simplify things in kind of steps you can imagine and kind of see what the eventual result may be.

If you have a greasy scalp, then:
1. stop applying stuff to the scalp and see if things clear up. To be really clear, ONLY apply shampoo to scalp related hair and wash it. That's it. Nothing else.

2. Apply stuff ONLY to the length (such as oiling the length), and a LOT less so as in don't use so much.

3. Do a better job at washing your hair overall, such as the scalp related hair by applying at least 2 shampoo applications, and use hotter water to get the gunk off the hair.

4. SLOW DOWN and be thorough.

I suspect that if you do these ideas, you'll have an easier time of it and not nearly a problem so much with scalp skin. I suspect that without realizing it, you may be causing your own problems by applying stuff to the scalp skin (and honestly, most conditioners are not intended to be beneficial or helpful when applied to scalp skin and scalp related hair. The bottle should say something about ok to apply to scalp skin.)

For the most part, I'd say, just improve your technique for hair washing, and the length will be fine, then.

I sometimes wish I could stand right next to people to watch what they're doing, and then better be able to offer help.

I know it appears confusing, but it isn't that confusing.

I'd begin with step 1. Stop applying stuff to scalp skin such as coconut oiling the scalp skin. The scalp skin has sebum. Let it be. Don't add to it. Just let it be. BUT fine on oiling the length ONLY (from about the earlobes on down). I have a video on oiling which may be helpful to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjVwPKMQDYk

Frankly, in this video, which I said IN the video, is that I used a bit too much oil. But you can see that I only oil the length. And I entirely leave the scalp skin alone and let sebum do its own job.

Also, when your hair gets longer, you're going to appreciate scalp washing. It saves you a lot of air drying time, and can get you to a sudden event that crops up looking nice. And your scalp hair can dry in an hour or less. (I have left the house with wet scalp hair and by the time I arrive wherever have perfectly dry hair that looks clean.) And there are ways to amended scalp washes too.

If I hear you rightly, you are trying to do one thing that gets all of the hair, scalp skin, related hair and the length. I actually do a few different things to different areas of the hair. Scalp skin and scalp related hair I allow sebum to do what it does, coat the skin as a barrier and protectant to the integrity of the skin, and I oil the length, and that's about the only special thing I do to my hair. I only apply conditioner to the length, ONLY. I do not apply conditioner to the scalp skin at all. I apply nothing except shampoo to wash my hair to the scalp skin. That's it. And I rinse really, really well.

I actually built a bathroom with a handhelds shower unit so that I can put a lot of water pressure on my hair and really make sure that I have all the stuff rinsed out of my hair by the time I'm done "washing" my hair.

You're correct, hair length for adults (not kids, though) generally doesn't need a lot of washing as it doesn't really get dirty a whole lot.

I suspect that your largest problem is you're applying stuff to scalp skin and it's actually causing you agony regarding getting your hair clean. And I do suspect that you're possibly oiling the length too heavily, and then resort to clarifying to get it all off. And that's not the idea of oiling.

Oiling helps to "protect" the hair and helps with dryness, helps with elasticity somewhat, helps with shine. Having to hard core remove it is antithetical to putting it on in the first place because you're then in this cycle of naked hair and overly oiled hair. Just back off on how much oiling you use to oil the hair length, and don't apply that to scalp skin. Give that a try.

I'm being as clear as I can be in words. I think you might get more clarity if you watch the video. I am wanting to help you.

Say, how's the water hardness in your neck of the woods?

heidi w.

heidi w.
March 22nd, 2012, 12:34 PM
Also I will readily admit that I probably don't spend enough time rinsing in the shower. And I don't comb my hair when it's wet because I read on this site that the hair is more stretchy wet and more prone to damage.
The residue that is coming off when I scratch can't be rolled up into a "waxy ball". It just disintegrates when I rub it.
It's not like the residue is visible, my hair looks normal, but I want to know if I'm doing something wrong and it does bother me that white stuff scratches off my head.

Okey-dokey. Then you simply aren't rinsing well enough. If that stuff isn't rolling into a little pliable, dough-like ball, then that isn't sebum. It's probably and more likely residual stuff that didn't get rinsed out well enough.

That is a simple problem to solve. Up the water temperature slightly, and rinse super well. Take the time to be sure you rinsed your hair well.

IF there's nothing showing in the hair, then it's unlikely that you have dandruff.

I would recommend a number of things:
1. Stop applying stuff to scalp skin.
2. Rinse super well. Take the time.

The thing that's going wrong it sounds like is that you aren't taking the time to really rinse the hair of all product etc. really well.

I'd add
3. There should be no need to clarify so frequently.
4. If you have too much oil on your hands, prior to oiling, then always keep a paper towel handy and pad the palms of your hands on the paper towel prior to oiling the hair length (leave the scalp skin alone). This way you avoid having applied oil too heavily.
5. Don't applying anything to scalp skin, and then you also don't have residual stuff to worry about getting out or gunking under a fingernail when you might scritch or scratch your head. Eliminate that problem by not adding to the problem.

I hope this is helpful somehow to you. Is there a reason you're applying anything to your scalp skin? That has yet to be explained as to your why are your doing this?

And Yes, you do not want to detangle or comb sopping wet hair, but when it's merely damp, you can begin to detangle. If you use a detangling spray or otherwise have a product which helps with detangling then you might be able to become able to detangle while the hair is damp.

ONLY curly, curly haired folks might need to detangle while hair is sopping wet, by applying conditione to hair length, and then coating the comb repetitively with conditioner and working the hair and comb to detangle while still in the shower, using the power of shower water to assist with detangling.

I detangle hair while damp, and in stages of dryness. I do not work with my hair while it's sopping wet. And much like Madora, I do small sections at a time.

Sounds to me that your overall problem is that you're possibly impatient and in a hurry. Hair care means to never be in a hurry. I've been impatient at times, and that's when I make stupid mistakes.

The goal is to get a routine that you know works, and can last a lifetime. It's kind of like a diet: I always eat this way. I always care for my hair this way. I think that those spending a lot of time fussing with the hair eventually decide to go a whole lot simpler because no one really likes hanging in a bathroom all day. At least I don't.

So I spend around an hour once a week, and that's it. I also wear my hair up ALL the time, even at home. That's my other "big trick".

I hope this has helped a bit.
heidi w.

ktani
March 22nd, 2012, 12:36 PM
If oil used for oiling is not removed effectively and more is applied you get residue that added to conditioner residue, just makes things worse. ETA: Washing hair with a good non clarifying shampoo does not strip all oil out of hair as in sebum. It can and should in my opinion, remove added oil, used for oiling. Oil used in oil shampoo can replace conditioner and not a lot is needed for that. Most of it is removed during shampooing.

Pre-oiling before drying herbs or soapnuts like aritha is done because when it is not used the aritha can remove too much sebum but is less effective in removing vegetable oil, so the vegetable oil protects the hair from being "stripped".


Clarifying resets things, done every once in a while, so that the layering of product does not overwhelm the hair shafts.

If you are having not only a flakey residue problem on your scalp but breakouts too, do not apply conditioner to your scalp at all, in my opinion. You can scalp wash with a mild shampoo.

I shampoo my scalp and use that lather to work it through my length, which removes enough catnip, so that it does not build-up.

However, a shampoo that is not clarifying, will not remove conditioner build-up. That is why clarifying shampoos were created. Cosmetic companies know this, and all conditioners build-up.

ravenreed
March 22nd, 2012, 12:44 PM
I am going to disagree with Heidi and Ktani. In my case, it is definitely a reaction to SLS, and I have to clean my scalp because it gets very oily. For me, the build up gets worse if I don't CO thoroughly on my scalp. CO gets my scalp very clean as long as I rinse well afterwards. I take my fingers and run them all along my scalp to make certain that I have adequately rinsed everywhere.

You might have to try both suggestions to see what works for you. Try one way for a few weeks and if that doesn't help, try the other. But try not to do too much at the same time because that really does make it hard to pin down the problem.

heidi w.
March 22nd, 2012, 12:55 PM
I am going to disagree with Heidi and Ktani. In my case, it is definitely a reaction to SLS, and I have to clean my scalp because it gets very oily. For me, the build up gets worse if I don't CO thoroughly on my scalp. CO gets my scalp very clean as long as I rinse well afterwards. I take my fingers and run them all along my scalp to make certain that I have adequately rinsed everywhere.

You might have to try both suggestions to see what works for you. Try one way for a few weeks and if that doesn't help, try the other. But try not to do too much at the same time because that really does make it hard to pin down the problem.

That's interesting. I thought a reaction to SLS seemed to be experienced differently, as in itchiness or something along those lines. The OP is merely irritated that she has stuff that she can scratch off her her head's scalp skin; she isn't saying she has itchiness, or irritation, or some kind of bumps or something along the lines of a rash which would be indicators of a reaction.

In fact she comes back and freely admits that she doesn't usually rinse well, she thinks. She admits she's kind of in a hurry.

Hmmmm.

What was going on that you realized it was a reaction to SLS? What were the kind of specifics of a problem that identified as a reaction to SLS.

heidi w.

sunny_rae2
March 22nd, 2012, 01:06 PM
I'm not sure exactly what water hardness is, so I googled it. I'm almost positive my water is not hard at all. We don't get any residue on anything as far as I can tell, and things get pretty sudsy.

Heidi W- The reason I apply stuff to my scalp is because I'd like to stretch washes further than two days because that's supposed to be better for the hair. I've read that if the scalp is getting oily fast then it needs moisture to keep it from overproducing sebum. That's why I started CO washing, and because it sounded healthier than stripping my hair with shampoo every time I washed. It seems counterintuitive to me even to shampoo twice! Obviously I'm figuring out my logic wasn't quite correct but I wanted to be nicer to my hair and was trying to figure out something that worked long term and kept it healthy and soft and moisturized. Isn't it true that conventional shampoos with sulfates and parabens are bad? I'm assuming when you say to shampoo my hair you mean with an organic healthy shampoo.

ktani- That makes sense why shampooing every week and a half would get the oil out of my length but not get gunk off my scalp.

So considering both these things, should I clarify now, and then continue shampooing my scalp and conditioning the lenth and stop COing?
My worry is, if clarifying strips the hair, and I condition the length to restore the moisture, but not the scalp.. won't the scalp be too stripped then? And I'll make sure only to clarify the scalp and not the length.

sunny_rae2
March 22nd, 2012, 01:12 PM
Well my scalp is itchy, too. It is more itchy today than it usually is (usually not too noticeable which is why I didn't mention it), and I did a SMT night before last and I can tell I didn't rinse it well enough. But I do have this white residue almost all the time.

What is SLS?

sunny_rae2
March 22nd, 2012, 01:14 PM
Just to let you know I'm at boarding school with limited internet so I can't watch the videos, but I'll watch them this weekend when I go home.

Amber_Maiden
March 22nd, 2012, 01:20 PM
I find I have to shampoo my scalp occasionally when I CO.

ktani
March 22nd, 2012, 01:22 PM
ktani- That makes sense why shampooing every week and a half would get the oil out of my length but not get gunk off my scalp.

So considering both these things, should I clarify now, and then continue shampooing my scalp and conditioning the lenth and stop COing?

My worry is, if clarifying strips the hair, and I condition the length to restore the moisture, but not the scalp.. won't the scalp be too stripped then? And I'll make sure only to clarify the scalp and not the length.

You can choose a milder clarifying shampoo, like Neutrogena Anti-Residue Shampoo. It has been reported to be fairly mild on both the hair and scalp.

SLS is Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, by the way. SLES is Sodium Laureth Sufate , which is milder and not used in the better clarifying shampoos as the main cleanser.

I think you should clarify the length every so often too, to resolve conditioner build-up there, especially. You do not have to use a lot of conditioner following that being done, just enough to make hair manageable.

Overusing products that build-up causes more hair damage from tangling and friction, than clarifying which can cause none at all, done properly, in my opinion.

ETA: While you may react to an ingredient in shampoo, you are already reacting to ingredient(s) in conditioner used on your scalp. You can buy a non sulfate or mild regular shampoo to scalp wash, condition your length, and clarify your length only as needed, when your hair no longer responds well by extra tangling, looking dull or limp etc.

sunny_rae2
March 22nd, 2012, 01:38 PM
I see, that makes the most sense.
I'd like to mention that there was a period of time that I did use only shampoo on my scalp. I felt like it dried out my hair and scalp... granted, I wasn't using conditioner on my length. And the shampoo had SLS or SLES in it, I can't remember which.
I think I'll pick up some Nature's Gate shampoo with good ingredients in it and the Neutrogena shampoo you mentioned, ktani.
Out of curiousity, since you would definitely be the person to ask, what if I tried using honey in place of shampoo? How would that work, would I only use it on my scalp, and would I still need to condition the length afterward?

ktani
March 22nd, 2012, 01:43 PM
I see, that makes the most sense.
I'd like to mention that there was a period of time that I did use only shampoo on my scalp. I felt like it dried out my hair and scalp... granted, I wasn't using conditioner on my length. And the shampoo had SLS or SLES in it, I can't remember which.
I think I'll pick up some Nature's Gate shampoo with good ingredients in it and the Neutrogena shampoo you mentioned, ktani.
Out of curiousity, since you would definitely be the person to ask, what if I tried using honey in place of shampoo? How would that work, would I only use it on my scalp, and would I still need to condition the length afterward?

Honey can be used on the scalp and skin. I for one, cannot use it on my scalp as I am sensitive to it but others love it used there. Ironic plus, lol.

However, honey cannot replace shampoo. Your scalp needs to be cleansed to keep it healthy and free of bacteria that can cause problems. Honey is not a choice for that application.

heidi w.
March 22nd, 2012, 02:10 PM
I'm not sure exactly what water hardness is, so I googled it. I'm almost positive my water is not hard at all. We don't get any residue on anything as far as I can tell, and things get pretty sudsy..

One can test water hardness by buying a pack for testing from a gardening store or from a hardware supply store. If it's somewhat too hard, this affects spots on dishes (when washing them), the feel of clothing, the feel of hair, and can contribute to buildup problems. One can buy a shower head filter that attaches to the arm of the shower protruding from the shower wall. You just have to change the filters somewhat regularly. But if soap is generally bubbling and not going away, the sudsiness that is, then likely your water is fine.


Heidi W- The reason I apply stuff to my scalp is because I'd like to stretch washes further than two days because that's supposed to be better for the hair. I've read that if the scalp is getting oily fast then it needs moisture to keep it from overproducing sebum. That's why I started CO washing, and because it sounded healthier than stripping my hair with shampoo every time I washed. It seems counterintuitive to me even to shampoo twice! Obviously I'm figuring out my logic wasn't quite correct but I wanted to be nicer to my hair and was trying to figure out something that worked long term and kept it healthy and soft and moisturized. Isn't it true that conventional shampoos with sulfates and parabens are bad? I'm assuming when you say to shampoo my hair you mean with an organic healthy shampoo..

Applying stuff to the scalp will not necessarily aide with stretching scalp washing. That's just adding stuff that needs to be removed. So you're kind of creating an extra expense. Sebum is fine for hair. It's not a problem. I would wait for a problem to occur rather than pre-empt it by assuming a problem will occur and apply all this stuff, that may not be necessary.

This scalp getting oily fast being a sign that more moisture is needed....uhhh,...well, that kind of makes no sense to me because mine gets oily fast because I have a scalp skin condition, called Seborrheic Dermatitus, which specifically means the sebacious gland over-produces sebum. And the last thing one wants to do is add crap on the scalp skin to give the skin more "moisture". That will really inflame the condition, and it certainly is also causing you a problem to ADD stuff to the scalp skin. You've got itchiness and stuff falling off the scalp skin. I'm being very careful to differentiate between scalp skin and scalp related hair and length. I mean very specific things when I use these terms to kind of pinpoint what area I'm speaking about.

It seems to me that you're confused about this stretching hair washes business, and doing stuff thinking it's helping, when in fact it's causing a problem. You have your evidence. It's not going well to apply stuff to the scalp skin. It's causing you aggravation and worry, and stuff is coming off of the scalp skin.

Most people cannot stretch much beyond around 5 days. More people fall in to the 3-4 days maximum of skipping hair washes. In fact, going too long without washing the hair can actually lead to other problems regarding an uptick in degree of hair loss. It is possible to go too long between hair washes and lose otherwise perfectly healthy hair because the scalp skin is all gunked up and the ambient bacteria has gone berzerk.

Also, I do not necessarily use SLS free shampoo. I don't think I use "organic" shampoo. I've used Nizoral for my scalp skin condition; I've used Biolage's hydrating shampoo, and now I use a shampoo that I can't mention on this site because of who the vendor is. But I can tell you I use Biolage's Conditioning Balm to apply conditioner to the length only.

ETA: I have made almost zilch study of the affect of sulfates and parabens being on my hair. I use cones, I know that, and get along just fine. I believe my shampoo does have a teensy bit of sulfates. I don't think it contains parabens. Some people's hair responds better, with cones than without cones. There's a number of people on LHC whose hair does better ON sulfates. So there is no universal yes or no for everyone. END ETA


ktani- That makes sense why shampooing every week and a half would get the oil out of my length but not get gunk off my scalp.

So considering both these things, should I clarify now, and then continue shampooing my scalp and conditioning the lenth and stop COing?
My worry is, if clarifying strips the hair, and I condition the length to restore the moisture, but not the scalp.. won't the scalp be too stripped then? And I'll make sure only to clarify the scalp and not the length.

No, the scalp will not be stripped because the Sebum exists as part of the Acid Mantle (look that up and read up on it), and sebum will coat the scalp skin within a day of a hair wash. You'll be fine, that's my bet.

I would say, that for right now, just clarify to start with clean hair, but don't give up CO washing if you don't want to. Your hair type, according to Curly Girl book and author Deborah Massey (who is well known for inventing this kind of hair wash and addressing other curly girl problems) would advocate that for your hair type you do not apply the Conditioner Only Hair Wash to scalp and related hair--she'd declare to only CO wash just the length only.

Curly Girl runs Devachan Salon which offers online the ability to buy low- and no-poo shampoos, which are good for curly hair types. Curls do not respond well to SLS.

heidi w.

heidi w.
March 22nd, 2012, 02:18 PM
I see, that makes the most sense.
I'd like to mention that there was a period of time that I did use only shampoo on my scalp. I felt like it dried out my hair and scalp... granted, I wasn't using conditioner on my length. And the shampoo had SLS or SLES in it, I can't remember which.
I think I'll pick up some Nature's Gate shampoo with good ingredients in it and the Neutrogena shampoo you mentioned, ktani.
Out of curiousity, since you would definitely be the person to ask, what if I tried using honey in place of shampoo? How would that work, would I only use it on my scalp, and would I still need to condition the length afterward?

Honey does not clean the scalp skin.

Conditioning long hair's length is necessary. That you will never hear someone not doing it. Someone who skips conditioning the length will likely have some ratty hair. I am sure there are, however, an exception here and there, but it won't be overly common.

I liked Nature's Gate shampoo before they changed the formula. They had one with Jojoba Oil, was it, and several of us uber longhaired folks tried it and hated it.

heidi w.

SpinDance
March 22nd, 2012, 02:27 PM
I've been reading this thread with some interest. Clearly different people react to things differently, and each of us has the challenge of figuring out what works for us and our hair. You've had some good suggestions already, so I won't repeat them.

I will say that stretching washes is not always 'better' than washing more frequently. From what I've read not everyone's hair 'adjusts' to not being washed by reducing the amount of sebum produced. Some folks with very long hair wash daily, others don't. There is on one recipe for success.

From my experiments I produce plenty of sebum, so I have to be careful not to get oil near my scalp. I tried CO for nearly a year before deciding that it just didn't do quite what my scalp needed. It is great on the rest of my hair, but my scalp needed just a bit more. I now do a sort of modified/combined CO and CWC. I use diluted conditioner to clean the hair on my head, use full strength conditioner on the rest (sometimes on top of diluted, depending on how I feel). Then leaving the conditioner on most of my hair I splash or duck my head under the shower head to semi-rinse off the already very dilute conditioner on my head. This feels pretty clean, but I know when it dries that there will still be too much sebum, so I then apply some extremely diluted shampoo, just to the scalp, and work it in. I really don't even get lather, just some bubbles and I can feel it doing the job of cleansing. Rinse the whole thing well, then apply conditioner again, only smoothing a touch over my head canopy to help with the 'halo'/frizz that I get.

I've been using this modified washing method for several months now with quite good success. No more scalp itchies from conditioner, no more greasy by the end of the day from CO washing that didn't cut the sebum enough.

Please note that I am no where near finished with my experiments. I still have different conditioners to try, different shampoos/blends to try, before I will consider that I've got what will be my long term routine. It takes a long time to really know if something will work for you long term. I was not successful with CO washing at all until after I went cone-free. It works for some, not for everyone. Now it is part of my bag of tricks of things with known results that I can use depending on my circumstances.

Best of luck in your endeavors. I hope you are able to quickly identify what will give you the results you want!

ktani
March 22nd, 2012, 02:33 PM
Some people can go without conditioner and have great long hair. However, they usually use a somewhat conditioning shampoo, that can also build-up.

I can go without conditioner (my usual catnip treatment which replaces conditioner and hair colour for me) and just use mineral oil/baby oil drops, with great success. Some of my friends and people here can and do that too. Conventional conditioner is not as many think, necessary for healthy, great looking hair.

You like conditioner and there is no reason to change that. You can also use mineral oil/baby oil drops if you wish, and they do and can wash out without leaving a residue that builds-up, used in a small enough amount, so that they will not add to your need to clarify more often.

Madora
March 22nd, 2012, 02:53 PM
Sunny rae2...have you ever tried diluting your shampoo and conditioner? Much easier to rinse out thoroughly.

ravenreed
March 22nd, 2012, 04:19 PM
I also have an itchy scalp after using SLS shampoos on my scalp. :) But I notice the build up of scalp gunk too, and horrible flakiness. Oh, and even worse oiliness. I can shampoo my hair and 20 hours later it looks greasy and smells strongly.

I didn't realize that I was having a reaction to SLS until after I joined LHC and tried CO washing to combat the oiliness. I thought the horrible itchiness would be part of my life forever, but when the constant scalp gunk and itchiness went away, I realized that SLS was a problem and took it out of my life as much as possible. I don't use body/face wash with it either anymore and my near constant itchiness has decreased significantly. I am still so sensitive to a myriad of things that I occasionally get itchy, but for the most part my skin (and scalp) are much happier! FWIW, SLES makes me react just as badly.

ETA: I still use SLS shampoo every couple of months to remove build up, but I no longer wash my scalp unless I absolutely have to. EVERY time I use shampoo on my scalp, I wake up the next day with flakies, and itchies. So I try to only use shampoo on my length and not to let it linger anywhere on my skin.



That's interesting. I thought a reaction to SLS seemed to be experienced differently, as in itchiness or something along those lines. The OP is merely irritated that she has stuff that she can scratch off her her head's scalp skin; she isn't saying she has itchiness, or irritation, or some kind of bumps or something along the lines of a rash which would be indicators of a reaction.

In fact she comes back and freely admits that she doesn't usually rinse well, she thinks. She admits she's kind of in a hurry.

Hmmmm.

What was going on that you realized it was a reaction to SLS? What were the kind of specifics of a problem that identified as a reaction to SLS.

heidi w.

sunny_rae2
March 22nd, 2012, 04:56 PM
Thank you sooo much everyone for contributing to my question! I feel very supported and positive towards figuring out what indeed is going on with my scalp.

I just clarified my scalp/scalp hair only with my K-pak stuff and used Pomsmooth Juice Organics condish on the length.
I'll update when it dries!
Hopefully my scalp hair won't be freaking out after the stripping and the residue will be gone...

gthlvrmx
March 22nd, 2012, 07:32 PM
So would it be best to not wash the scalp with conditioner? Because some ingredients, even coneless conditioner, cause build-up? I read that if you CO wash, you're supposed to wash the scalp with some conditioner to get some of the stuff out since you're not using a shampoo. Now im confused on what to use on le scalp :(

Safira
March 23rd, 2012, 01:50 AM
I was wondering, if youre worried about your scalp and thinking youre not having enough moisture, can you after shampooing add for half an hour aloe vera at your scalp? I find it very calming and moisturizing.

I have very problematic scalp, it gets greasy, I have itchies, sometimes I have to wash everyday because of the greesiness.
But, if your scalp is dirty, you have to wash it!

There is way to wash scalp without washing length. Cover your hair with plastic pag and wash scalp with shampoo. I use this often, because I dont want wet hair everyday.

There is always CWC, which is fun also.
Dont worry too much for your scalp, try to find the easiest way to deal with your scalp and enjoy your life.

sunny_rae2
March 23rd, 2012, 07:24 AM
Well today, after clarifying my scalp last night, no more white stuff!! My hair is really soft, too.
I guess I'll go from here experimenting with natural shampoos for my scalp (I already ordered some) and continue conditioning the length, lightly oiling of course, and clarifying every three months or so, IF I need it.
Thanks so much everyone!

Dragon Faery
March 23rd, 2012, 07:53 AM
Good luck!


So would it be best to not wash the scalp with conditioner? Because some ingredients, even coneless conditioner, cause build-up? I read that if you CO wash, you're supposed to wash the scalp with some conditioner to get some of the stuff out since you're not using a shampoo. Now im confused on what to use on le scalp :(

*gthlvrmx* If it works for you with no problems, don't worry about it. Everyone's scalp is different, and what works fantastically well for one person could spell disaster for another. Usually we curlies need all the moisture we can get. :)

ktani
March 23rd, 2012, 08:05 AM
Well today, after clarifying my scalp last night, no more white stuff!! My hair is really soft, too.
I guess I'll go from here experimenting with natural shampoos for my scalp (I already ordered some) and continue conditioning the length, lightly oiling of course, and clarifying every three months or so, IF I need it.
Thanks so much everyone!

Great to hear that you finally got it sorted out!

Clarify when you feel your hair hair needs it. That can be every 3 months or sooner, depending on what you conditon with and how much product you use at one time.

Good luck!

gthlvrmx
March 23rd, 2012, 09:56 AM
Good luck!



*gthlvrmx* If it works for you with no problems, don't worry about it. Everyone's scalp is different, and what works fantastically well for one person could spell disaster for another. Usually we curlies need all the moisture we can get. :)
ah ok thank you :D

trolleypup
March 23rd, 2012, 10:35 AM
What the scalp needs, and what the hair needs may be totally different and incompatible. Given my hairtype, I can pretty much do what I want with my hair, but my scalp is another matter. Use of almost any product leads to scalp anger (buildup, itchiness, etc.), thus my excursions into WO territory and adoption of vinegar rinses (both help independently). Sustained exercise while my hair is contained (pony scrub usually) also keeps my scalp happy although it can make for pretty gross hair afterwards. Scalp and hair, funny stuff.

Anje
March 23rd, 2012, 11:00 AM
You and me both, TP. The powdery white stuff is what my scalp makes, all on its own. It's not conditioner buildup, it's just sebum and cells. And my scalp is happiest if I don't make strong efforts to remove it all. So I CO wash and lose fewer hairs than if I shampoo, and have a more happy scalp in the process. WO washing leaves my scalp happier still, but I prefer the texture of my hair when it's a little cleaner than that.

I'm sorry to hear so many of you get nasty infections when you let your body what it does naturally, but it isn't unhealthy for everyone to let the scalp have its sebum.

heidi w.
March 23rd, 2012, 11:11 AM
I was wondering, if youre worried about your scalp and thinking youre not having enough moisture, can you after shampooing add for half an hour aloe vera at your scalp? I find it very calming and moisturizing.

I have very problematic scalp, it gets greasy, I have itchies, sometimes I have to wash everyday because of the greesiness.
But, if your scalp is dirty, you have to wash it!

There is way to wash scalp without washing length. Cover your hair with plastic pag and wash scalp with shampoo. I use this often, because I dont want wet hair everyday.

There is always CWC, which is fun also.
Dont worry too much for your scalp, try to find the easiest way to deal with your scalp and enjoy your life.

Overly greasy scalp + itchiness + daily washing could be an indicator for Seborrheic Dermatitus. I have this and I can tell you without a doubt (and confirmed by talking with a few pals that have this as well) put nothing on the scalp skin. It is entirely possible to condition length without apply conditioner to scalp skin itself. I have beyond knee length hair, and I begin at around the earlobes and condition down the entire length.

Have you had a dermatologist look at your scalp skin?

I just posted a bunch of info in another thread to a woman from Zimbabwe who has S.D. and is having problems with this.

heidi w.

heidi w.
March 23rd, 2012, 11:16 AM
Great to hear that you finally got it sorted out!

Clarify when you feel your hair hair needs it. That can be every 3 months or sooner, depending on what you conditon with and how much product you use at one time.

Good luck!

The idea to clarify at most every three months is offered as a possible schedule. In truth, I personally hardly ever clarify, and I do lightly oil my hair length. I have no problems with buildup. I think it's been over two years since I last clarified my hair. Just go with what seems necessary. Just keep an eye on it. There's no need for regular scheduling of clarifying. You're right: "IF" you need it.

I'm glad everything is working better for the OP now.

Trolleypup is correct. What the hair needs and what the scalp skin itself needs can entirely different things. But there is a way to get to solving both issues in one fell swoop, most of the time. But just to point out, I wash my hair at the scalp skin with one shampoo, and do not use it down my length hardly at all. I just let the suds float down the length, but I do not apply an extra bit of shampoo to get the length "clean". I simply work with the suds from the head hair/scalp skin zone. Then I condition from about the earlobes on down, and never let the conditioner touch my scalp skin at all. That's handling two different needs in one swoop.

Anyway, I hope things continue to improve for the OP.

heidi w.

heidi w.
March 23rd, 2012, 11:20 AM
So would it be best to not wash the scalp with conditioner? Because some ingredients, even coneless conditioner, cause build-up? I read that if you CO wash, you're supposed to wash the scalp with some conditioner to get some of the stuff out since you're not using a shampoo. Now im confused on what to use on le scalp :(

Is that you in the Avatar photo? Or is that someone else?

There are different kinds of CO washing according to the degree of curl one has as outlined in the book Curly Girl (and the followup Curly Girl Handbook) authored by Lorraine Massey, who is crazy curly.

Those with crazy curliness such as African-Americans, that is the curl coming right out of the head right away coily, then apply the conditioner to scalp skin. (But if you have S.D. I wouldn't. S.D. = Seborrheic Dermatitus). If you're merely wavy or less curly or less body, then you can apply conditioner to the length only and wash the scalp hair with a dilution of shampoo and water.

I hope this makes sense.
heidi w.

heidi w.
March 23rd, 2012, 11:21 AM
Well today, after clarifying my scalp last night, no more white stuff!! My hair is really soft, too.
I guess I'll go from here experimenting with natural shampoos for my scalp (I already ordered some) and continue conditioning the length, lightly oiling of course, and clarifying every three months or so, IF I need it.
Thanks so much everyone!

I'm glad things are all better now! I hope any confusion you had is resolved.
heidi w.

gthlvrmx
March 23rd, 2012, 11:49 AM
Is that you in the Avatar photo? Or is that someone else?

There are different kinds of CO washing according to the degree of curl one has as outlined in the book Curly Girl (and the followup Curly Girl Handbook) authored by Lorraine Massey, who is crazy curly.

Those with crazy curliness such as African-Americans, that is the curl coming right out of the head right away coily, then apply the conditioner to scalp skin. (But if you have S.D. I wouldn't. S.D. = Seborrheic Dermatitus). If you're merely wavy or less curly or less body, then you can apply conditioner to the length only and wash the scalp hair with a dilution of shampoo and water.

I hope this makes sense.
heidi w.
Yes that's me in the avatar :)
Ah i see that makes sense to me :) I think diluted shampoo shall work. thank you!

Safira
March 24th, 2012, 07:13 AM
Overly greasy scalp + itchiness + daily washing could be an indicator for Seborrheic Dermatitus. I have this and I can tell you without a doubt (and confirmed by talking with a few pals that have this as well) put nothing on the scalp skin. It is entirely possible to condition length without apply conditioner to scalp skin itself. I have beyond knee length hair, and I begin at around the earlobes and condition down the entire length.

Have you had a dermatologist look at your scalp skin?

I just posted a bunch of info in another thread to a woman from Zimbabwe who has S.D. and is having problems with this.

heidi w.

Hello Heidi.
Thank you for your answer. Im not sure if I have S.D, I never visited doctor for this problem.
I have two spots which are bothering me sometimes, last time was month ago, and before that, four years ago.
Above my ears are two spots, very itchy, burning and greasy spots. My scalp gets greasy, but those areas gets greasy in a day.
Scap in these spots are not red, no flakes or whatsoever. Its just the feeling, and its really not nice. I tried Atarax, if it would help, it did not. (I use Atarax, because my skin is so dry that it itchies and at nights when Im asleep, I scratch myself to the point my skin bleeds, I have no exeemas, just the dryness)
Does this sound S.D to you? Ive tried Nizoral, Ducray Kelual, all different kind of shampoos, lotions (for fungal infrctions) and nothing helps. Aloe vera helps a little, and I wash it away after half an hour.

Thank you for your help =)

ktani
March 24th, 2012, 08:36 AM
The idea to clarify at most every three months is offered as a possible schedule. In truth, I personally hardly ever clarify, and I do lightly oil my hair length. I have no problems with buildup. I think it's been over two years since I last clarified my hair. Just go with what seems necessary. Just keep an eye on it. There's no need for regular scheduling of clarifying. You're right: "IF" you need it.

True. The problem is that people may not realize that problems they are having with their hair are build-up related. Light oiling is the least of it to me as most oils (other than drying ones) used in small amounts, are fairly easily washed out, depending on how heavy they are or not.

What many people here did this past winter, was to use much more conditioner, especially on their ends in an attempt to deal with dryness and it backfired as the hair became drier. All conditioners build-up. The longer you use one without clarifying, the more build-up there is on the hair.

I never realized just how true that is until my hair became build-up free. The difference is very clear. My hair does not tangle at all. It used to tangle at any appreciable length.

I keep reading the same results after people here do clarify. Their hair looks and feels much better, is easier to comb and manage. Build-up can be sneaky. It can appear differently to people in terms of results. However, the results are all the same, in that the hair is not at its potential best, when the hair shafts are overloaded with coating residues, that need to be removed, ETA: to achieve that.

heidi w.
March 24th, 2012, 10:40 AM
Hello Heidi.
Thank you for your answer. I´m not sure if I have S.D, I never visited doctor for this problem.
I have two spots which are bothering me sometimes, last time was month ago, and before that, four years ago.
Above my ears are two spots, very itchy, burning and greasy spots. My scalp gets greasy, but those areas gets greasy in a day.
Scap in these spots are not red, no flakes or whatsoever. It´s just the feeling, and it´s really not nice. I tried Atarax, if it would help, it did not. (I use Atarax, because my skin is so dry that it itchies and at nights when I´m asleep, I scratch myself to the point my skin bleeds, I have no exeemas, just the dryness)
Does this sound S.D to you? I´ve tried Nizoral, Ducray Kelual, all different kind of shampoos, lotions (for fungal infrctions) and nothing helps. Aloe vera helps a little, and I wash it away after half an hour.

Thank you for your help =)

I really recommend that you get this looked at by a licensed Dermatologist. It could be any number of things. It could be plaques related to exzema, psoriasis, or S.D. or something else. It helps to have a name for what's going on as it can kind of direct the path of solution. Also, exzema can occur on other parts of the body, and you need to know somewhat what the possibilities are in terms of what could happen later on.

Wear socks on your hands if you're prone to itching at night. I have come to realize that I itch at night too, but not too badly.

What you describe does not sound like S.D. to me. It sounds like something else. I can only suggest that you see a doctor for a diagnosis. Go when an outbreak has hit and don't do anything to try and fix it. Go in with symptoms in full view. This is the best way to diagnose stuff. They will probably ask what you've tried, and you can tell them. They may have other suggestions for the solution.

Try not to live with something unpleasant if you don't have to. You clearly have something going on, and the first step to solving OR managing the problem is to find out the name of what it is you've got.

heidi w.

heidi w.
March 24th, 2012, 10:43 AM
True. The problem is that people may not realize that problems they are having with their hair are build-up related. Light oiling is the least of it to me as most oils (other than drying ones) used in small amounts, are fairly easily washed out, depending on how heavy they are or not.

What many people here did this past winter, was to use much more conditioner, especially on their ends in an attempt to deal with dryness and it backfired as the hair became drier. All conditioners build-up. The longer you use one without clarifying, the more build-up there is on the hair.

I never realized just how true that is until my hair became build-up free. The difference is very clear. My hair does not tangle at all. It used to tangle at any appreciable length.

I keep reading the same results after people here do clarify. Their hair looks and feels much better, is easier to comb and manage. Build-up can be sneaky. It can appear differently to people in terms of results. However, the results are all the same, in that the hair is not at its potential best, when the hair shafts are overloaded with coating residues, that need to be removed, ETA: to achieve that.

For what it's worth for readers, I always condition all my length whenever I wash all of my hair, again only conditioning the length, and then when dry and detangled, I oil and Boar Bristle Brush very lightly. I hardly ever clarify anymore. In fact, I can't recall the last time I clarified. But ktani is correct that all conditioners can eventually build up, as can unrinsed out product, as can minerals in hard water, and so on.

There is no need to place oneself on a "schedule" of clarifying. Just do it when you believe you need to.

heidi w.

ktani
March 24th, 2012, 01:11 PM
When, years ago, I never clarified and continued to use products that cause build-up like conditioner, insead of what I did later, when I stopped using anything that caused build up and let it gradually wash out, my hair always tangled, I aways had split ends and breakage, thought my hair was fragile, and it looked much thinner.

Now, my hair is the opposite, strong, split end free, minimal mechanical damage only, full, and tangle free. It is balanced moisture wise but what is not on it, build-up, is to me, just as important as what I use on it.

I am not advocating over clarifying hair. It is just that unless one recognizes what heidi and I are saying, and one continues to use more ETA: build-up causing - product than necessary on one's hair, there can be issues that can be one step away from being resolved.

sunny_rae2
March 24th, 2012, 09:03 PM
When, years ago, I never clarified and continued to use products that cause build-up like conditioner, insead of what I did later, when I stopped using anything that caused build up and let it gradually wash out, my hair always tangled, I aways had split ends and breakage, thought my hair was fragile, and it looked much thinner.

Now, my hair is the opposite, strong, split end free, minimal mechanical damage only, full, and tangle free. It is balanced moisture wise but what is not on it, build-up, is to me, just as important as what I use on it.

I am not advocating over clarifying hair. It is just that unless one recognizes what heidi and I are saying, and one continues to use more ETA: build-up causing - product than necessary on one's hair, there can be issues that can be one step away from being resolved.

What do you think the best way is to tell when the length needs to be clarified? It seems like it would be hard to tell exactly what was causing the tanglies... I know it's different for everyone but what generally should I look for?
By the way, I got the Neutrogena gentle anti-residue shampoo you mentioned, so the next time I need to clarify I'll try it :)

proo
March 25th, 2012, 09:26 AM
I've had great success clarifying with only 3 drops of Prell in a half gallon of water.
After wetting thoroughly with plain water
I swish the length in the Prell water, then slowly pour it over the scalp, hair pulled forward.
3 drops of Prell (or Neutrogena) in that much water provides very loose, minimal sudsing.
It is clarifying as well as non-stripping.
I have found straight shampoo extremely harsh to scalp and hair.

GRU
March 25th, 2012, 02:59 PM
My scalp needs good thorough scrubbing action with conditioner to get all the "stuff" off. Whenever my seborrheic dermatitis flares up, I know that I haven't been washing often enough or I haven't been scrubbing thoroughly enough.

ACV rinses may be beneficial as well.

ktani
March 25th, 2012, 05:26 PM
What do you think the best way is to tell when the length needs to be clarified? It seems like it would be hard to tell exactly what was causing the tanglies... I know it's different for everyone but what generally should I look for?
By the way, I got the Neutrogena gentle anti-residue shampoo you mentioned, so the next time I need to clarify I'll try it :)

It varies with what has been used on the hair, how much is used at a time etc., plus the hair itself.

Generally, build-up causes hair to look dull, be drier, tangle, be limp, look thinner, be difficult to manage and comb, it can cause hair to be brittle and break, cause split ends (through dryness). They are signs. My hair also, depending on what I was using, looked stringy, was overy curly and tangled worse. It knotted too. Not all of that was from conditioner. Some of those signs were from herbal treatments. I had them all at one point or another. I have none of them now.

ETA: I left out frizzy. That can be from dryness too and "crunchy". I could hear how dry my hair was when I squeezed the ends of my hair together, and held them nex to my ear, when I did that. Others can have more signs.

sunny_rae2
March 25th, 2012, 09:59 PM
Alright, thanks! I can't say I've really ever noticed my hair getting specifically like that (other than my misadventures in good-intentioned hair care attempts, it mostly felt too heavy) so perhaps my length is good at avoiding buildup. I'll make sure to pay attention.