help

[Andrew]

I can never get all the shampoo and conditioner out of my hair after a shower. It has become so bad that ocassionly I just dish soap with a dress cutter to get it back to normal.

I love having long hair, but this is irritating. What am I doing wrong?

[Riot Crrl]

What is a dress cutter?

[Mandie]

It's often suggested that you use a vinegar rinse to help with the rinsing. Are you using cone or cone-free products? It's possible that it's flat-out what you're using in your hair that isn't agreeing with it.

[manderly]

What is a dress cutter?

Seconded??

Well, what exactly IS your problem with not getting the soap out? Do you have very long/thick hair with lousy water pressure?

Just saying "I can't rinse my hair well" doesn't really help me help you. Could just be you're a lazy rinser.....I know my BF gets out of the shower with shampoo bubbles in his ear :shrug:

A little more information would help us give you the best advice :)

[Tap Dancer]

I don't know what a dress cutter is... :confused:

Anyway, are you using too much shampoo and conditioner? I used to have a problem with rinsing and my scalp would be itchy until my next wash. Use a little less product and rinse for a long time.

[Dianyla]

You might be using way too much shampoo and/or conditioner if you can't get it all out. :twocents:

[podo]

A Google search shows me that a dress cutter is like a cookie cutter, only in the shape of a dress.

I HOPE you're not using a blade on your hair!! I have no idea how this could possibly help get rid of shampoo and conditioner.

I agree with the others - please tell us more about your request.

[jojo]

It has become so bad that ocassionly I just dish soap with a dress cutter to get it back to normal.

I am totally lost in what this means?

Are you talking build up? or actual not being able to wash out suds?

[wintersun99]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Andrew]

Sorry I am new, I meant grease cutter. I don't use a lot of shampoo and I rinse my head throughly, it just seems I can never get it all out without the aid of the dish soap.

[justgreen]

egad! Just use a vinegar rinse man! THEN use diluted shampoo. YOu'd be surprised how well this works on getting your hair clean. To me, dish soap is MUCH harder to remove. You might have such a product build up that nothing is working.

Vinegar will remove soap and conditioner residue, but if you have silicone build up, then you need to use a clarifying agent. Suave has a good cheap one. I prefer Nexxus Aloe rid which can now be found at Walmart for under $7

I use about a tablespoon of shampoo in a 4 ounce bottle with water, has an cone nose applicator. Shake well and I get ALL the suds I need and the applicator lets me get it right down to the scalp.

[Golden21]

What products are you using for shampoo and conditioner?

[Haith]

Do you have hard water? If you have well water or you live in Canada (like me) chances are that you do. Hard water will make it hard to rinse out soap residue, so you'll need to do a vinegar or bottled water final rinse, or even consider investing in a water softener if its really bad.

[Loviatar]

Hi Andrew,

First thigns first, a few questions:

How long is your hair? Could it be that you are cleaning your scalp fine but not giving enough time for the suds/conditioner to be rinsed from your length? I normally rinse for at least 3 minutes under a shower to make sure all the suds are gone, and I run my hands through my hair and under the top layers to make sure the clean water gets to my scalp too.

Do you wash 'bent forward' or standing up in a shower to let the soap run down your back? I find if I do the latter method, my hair isnt as rinsed clean as it is if I do the former.

Which shampoo and conditioner are you using at the moment?

I'll see if I can help more if you can give us more details. :)
Thanks
Lovi

[MeMyselfandI]

General instructions:

Use a small amount of shampoo on your head the shampoo down to the ends.

If you are using SLS free shampoo make sure your conditioners are cone free as well.

My daughter's hair constantly felt as is she did not rinse the shampoo out. Last week I had her use the Neutrogena Anti-Residue shampoo. It made a big difference in her hair. Her hair felt clean. I guess she needed a clarifying shampoo to get rid of cones and oily build up.

I would recommend you try the Neutrogena Anti-Residue shampoo and see if that makes your hair feel cleaner. I would not recommend that Neutrogena Anti-Residue shampoo be used as a normal shampoo. I use it before hennaing my hair. I think when the hair does not come clean any longer or looks not right it is time to use the Neutrogena Anti-Residue shampoo.

[Kirin]

Don't use dish soap, it will ruin your hair. Instead use a shampoo made specifically to clarify, like V05 Kiwi Lime Squeeze Clarifying, Suave Clarifying, or Neutrogena.

For your daily routine, find a shampoo and conditioner that is LIGHT, contains no silicones, waxes or oils. Dillute your shampoo 50/50 with water, that will help with the rinse out, and if your conditioner is very thick, dillute that too 25/75 water/conditioner ratio, that should help

[heidi w.]

You're using a GREASE CUTTER?

Honey, we HAVE to talk!!!

OK, sit down.

You also mentioned something about dish soap. Different soaps are made different from shampoo, believe it or not. For example, the soap that doctors clean their hands with before surgery...that's a specific type of soap with alcohol in it. One should never use such a soap on their hair.

First, hair is a natural, organic fiber.

Here's how to wash your hair.

1. Detangle the length before stepping in the shower.
2. Use a shower or lean over a sink (if you lean over a sink detangle your hair length and brush it over your head. Don't just flop your hair over willy-nilly)
3. You may not be able to fix poor pressure, but my bet is on your water temperature chosen is too cool. Make it warmer.
4. Get in shower, and wet the hair, THOROUGHLY. Healthy hair takes a minute or so to get really wet. If there's oiliness to the hair (sebum from sebacious glands built up, as in day 3 or longer between a hair wash, then that sebum is a barrier to the water a bit), it'll take a bit to get the hair reeeeellly wet. The hair should feel heavier because when it absorbs water, it expands in diameter and length! Make sure the underside is wet too, such as at the nape of the neck. Lift any hair length and get it wet.

5. Place a dollop of shampoo in your palm and slightly rub your hands together to get the gumminess shmoozed out, a little bubbly going. Put it under the shower water to help activate it a little and to get emulsification.

6. Place on hair line and rub just a little to get some bubbles.

7. Take another dollop and do the same process only apply to the crown of the head.

8. Palpitate the scalp skin.

9. Know that the first application of shampoo merely breaks the surface tension of dirty hair. Dirty hair (sebum, sweat, actual dirt, skin cells that are sloughing off, etc.) kind of binds together (that oily, greasy look) and the first shampoo merely breaks up the bond of all this gunk. The first application will not activate into bubbles as well as the subsequent applications. BUT this is not cause to apply MORE at this stage.

10. Rinse this first application out, thoroughly, lifting the hair, tilting the head. Thoroughly in rather warm water!!!

11. Second application of shampoo, same exact process per above, now only this time, after the shampoo is applied you should have more bubbles. Really wash the scalp skin. Focus on washing the scalp skin all about the head. Massage the scalp, use your nails very gently.

ETA: IF you need a third application, you should be able to use less shampoo because more of that surface tension is not only broken, but removed.

NOTE: IN HAIR WASHING, DO NOT PILE THE HAIR LENGTH ON THE HEAD. EVER. IT INCITES TANGLES AND IS A DISASTER TO DEAL WITH LATER.

12. Rinse out this application, and then do one more shampoo application.
13. Likewise rinse out. Most folks MUST do at least 2 shampoo applications, minimum. Use shampoo. Don't use a soap bar for the body; don't use dish soap for dishes; don't use soap for washing the car. Use shampoo.

14. Now rinse again, even if you think you were thorough.

15. Now it's time to condition the length.

16. Make sure the shower water is still pretty warm because the warmer water and the humid environment of the shower opens the cuticles for the uptake of the conditioner. Conditioner is meant to penetrate hair strands. ETA: and if the water temperature is too tepid or cool, that outer surface layer of cuticle simply won't open and all you'll get is glob on top of the hair strands and a kind of tactile gumminess when out of the shower.

17. Hair length is likely in ropey clumps (I'm assuming you have some length.) If no length whatsoever, you will want to thin out the conditioner significantly, almost as a rinse versus a conditioner, and apply because you really don't want to apply conditioner to scalp skin -- only to length. To apply to length you will bend over so the hair length is off to the side a bit and so you can apply conditioner to pretty close to the head but not actually touch the scalp skin. ETA: do warm the conditioner by quickly putting under the shower water to emulsify only a tad. This is an important detail in winter where bathrooms can be quite cold in snow season.

18. Leave on for a while in the shower and do some other things. ETA: occasionally allow a dribble of fairly warm (I use almost hottish water temperature) wate to dribble on the length with all that conditioner on it. DO NOT allow the hair to become cold or the conditioner that is applied cold. It'll set up and not work.

19. Now rinse the conditioner out thoroughly.

20. If with this process you still have a problem with getting a clean hair wash, you can use some form of an acid rinse ... that is an Apple Cider Vinegar (or white vinegar is fine too) rinse that is heavily diluted, as in 3 Tablespoons in an 8 oz glass of warm water OR lemon juice in similar proportions. This resets the acid mantle of the scalp skin and helps to remove any buildup that was acquired in taht hair wash only. (Build up that has dried on the hair is a whole other issue and requires clarifying, which I will address separately.) These rinses will remove any residual product remaining on the hair and they will also remove any hard minerals off the hair that your water may impart.

21. If your water is extremely hard, especially possessing iron, this could be an issue for getting the softer, shinier well behaved hair you desire. In this instance, in most cases, it's pretty inexpensive to get a shower head water filter and attach it to the shower head itself. Around $20 to acquire. Do change the filter at regular intervals. Harder water may require a higher rate of frequency to change.

22. A lot of people like handheld shower attachments because of the power of the pulsing action to get a better rinse on the head of hair. These are purchasable and not that difficult to install on a shower arm with a simple diverter.

CLARIFYING
In your case, since you have done a number of hair washes and the hair is still coming out lank, you likely have buildup.

To resolve this issue I would approach it this way because I'm not there and can't see your hair, so I'm going to go the conservative route.

First, try washing and conditioning per above. Try it twice. If your hair still comes out all gummy and cruddy, then you definitely need to clarify.

Clarify is a process that allows one to remove everything off the surface of the hair. You see, when you haven't been getting a good rinse, this means product is hanging on to your hair. (I am assuming all naturale hair -- no coloring, no perming. The rules change if this is the case with you. So write us if that is so.) This means subsequent washes are going to persist in being less & less successful as time goes on.

What have you been using as a 'degreaser'? I'm just curious. (I'm almost scared to ask because I have a funny feeling about the answer!)

OK, to clarify you can go to the beauty supply store and find a shampoo that specifically has the word CLARIFY in its name of the product. Many work quite well. OR you can try the below. Some folks don't like it, but it works well for many.

REMEMBER to do this type of hair wash means you are removing EVERYTHING, that is CLARIFYING MEANS YOU ARE STRIPPING THE HAIR BARE NAKED of all natural sebum, of all dirt, of all product, of minerals from your water, everything . THEREFORE, as part of the clarifying process it's IMPERATIVE to replace what you remove so you MUST CONDITION QUITE WELL as part of the process.

For you, since you're kinda new at this, I recommend going with a store-bought clarify hair wash product and then conditioning after that and see how it is then.

I personally use equal parts baking SODA (not powder!) and shampoo of your choice. I use 3 TAblespoons of each, mix it up in a plastic cup so it's smooth and creamy, no lumps. ETA: if your shampoo choice has any colorants in it, it will come out a creamy hue somewhat colored that color. This is OK and normal. It's also normal to see some gassing bubbles.

THen I use the above process of wetting the hair well, doing my first shampoo with just shampoo to break the surface tension, then apply this concoction two times, rinsing as described above between each and every application and step. THEN I finish by conditioning extremely well, leaving the conditioner on for a long time. Then rinse that out. You can, if you like, use one of the ACV or vinegar rinses mentioned above.

REMEMBER this rule in hair care: MORE IS NOT BETTER. It's the steps that matter, the rinsing between each application. I bet warmer water will also help your cause.

That should do the trick.

heidi w.

[Andrew]

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f388/heatfan/Picture045.jpg

I use Suave daily clarifying shampoo and Suave daily clarifyying conditioner...

Now with a conditioner, don't I just do the strains of hair, not the scalp?

[Riot Crrl]

Andrew, your hair looks great to me. Maybe a few flyaways, probably caused by dryness from your dish liquid.

I'm wondering if the solution here could lie in simply adjusting your expectations of what your hair is supposed to be like when you rinse it. It does not have to be "squeaky." One of the things that conditioner is meant to do, is remove the squeaky stripped-ness that was caused by the shampoo.

[MotherConfessor]

Dish Soap :thudpile: Ok, "picks self off of ground," everyone here has given good advice. Never, ever look at the dish soap again - ever. If you suspect that your water is to blame, try rinsing your hair with bottled water after a shower. If your hair seems ok, then the problem is your water. If your hair seems ok after one of the clarifying shampoos, then you have buildup. You may also wish to try the baking soda and vinegar method of babyslimes, (look it up before you do it) I have picky hair and I really like it. If neither of these work, just give yourself another minute under the shower and then just get out and leave it alone. See how it does with that.

[Riot Crrl]

Dish soap is getting a bad rap here :D

There are two main differences of dish liquid and shampoo.

- The dish liquid may have had less attention paid to pH balancing
- The dish liquid (especially these days) is far more concentrated

Other than that, the main ingredients of many dish liquids are the same as the main ingredients of many shampoos. Just dilute it some and you have an un-pH-balanced shampoo. At least the dish liquid is honest about being pure detergent.

[heidi w.]

Apparently some anti-bacterial dish soaps have ammonia in it....

http://www.pullmankids.com/articles/soap.html
this article is a bit edgy in my book regarding its concerns....but it does point out the use of ammonia in anti-bacterial dish soap. This is not something you want on your hair.

http://www.chemistryquestion.com/English/Questions/ChemistryInDailyLife/1c_Shampoo_Soap.html
**Note, underscore added by heidi w. for emphasis of the points

The main reason for development of shampoo was that “hair became rough and damaged when soap was used to wash hair”, as you mentioned. Thus, shampoo is specific for washing hair.

However, both shampoo and soap employ “surfactants” as the main compound to remove dirt. Let us look at the main kinds of surfactants in the history of shampoo development.

Types of surfactants and the history of shampoo development
1. Soap
This is made from boiling beef tallow or palm oil with an alkaline solution to produce the salt of a fatty acid (surfactant), this process is called “saponification”. The product produced this way can dissolve oil and remove dirt.

However, the relationship between alkali and hair is not beneficial. Alkali gradually causes damage to the proteins of hair. It may also react with other preparations for hair and cause problems. In addition, soap reacts with metal ions (Ca2+ etc. ) and forms a complex called “scum”, which is also not good for washing hair. (You are able to see scum on your bath tub.) [heidi w.: this could become buildup on hair.]

2. Oil (petroleum) detergent
These types of detergents (surfactants), such as alkyl benzene sulfonates, were originally invented in Germany during the war. At that time, Germany had to synthesize a detergent independent of fat because of the economic blockade.

Incidentally, oil detergent, which is still used as dish soap or laundry soap, is good for removing dirt. However, it also removes the components that hair needs. This removes oil from hair and damages the skin. Bluing was invented, and some additives were added to shampoos in order to solve this problem. However, you may still feel sticky or dry depending on how thoroughly you rinse the hair after using these shampoos

3. Higher alcohol detergents
This type of detergent (surfactant) was developed to avoid the disadvantage of soap and oil detergents. “Higher” means the alcohol molecule has more than 8 carbons. For example, higher alcohol detergents made from palm oil have usually between 12 and 18 carbons.

Thus, we see that new surfactants have been developed to make up for the disadvantages of the original surfactants. By the way, what kinds of surfactants do current shampoos contain?

The difference between shampoo and soap

These are properties which shampoo should have:

Proper detergency without degreasing
Ability to form delicate and rich bubbling
Easy rinsing
Good finish after washing hair
Minimal skin/eye irritation
No damage to hair
Low toxicity
Good biodegradability


Surfactants are chosen based on these factors. In many current shampoos, the higher alcohol type–anion surfactant provides the proper detergency and forms rich bubbles, and a non-ion surfactant is added as coadjuvant. The reason why more than one kind of surfactant is employed in shampoo is to make better bubbling and to have a more beautiful finish for the hair.

In addition to surfactants, many other ingredients are added to shampoo in order to prevent dandruff, to treat the hair, to rinse the hair and to give him/her a fresh feeling, etc. This is the difference between shampoo and soap.


The above article that is mostly quoted explains the difference clearly and well from a chemistry perspective.

http://harlequinllc.com/shampoo_bar_2.html
This is about shampoo "bars". I thought it might interest Andrew to know of these existing.

http://www.answers.com/topic/pyrithione-zinc-bar-soap-or-shampoo?cat=health
This is about pyrithione-zinc as an ingredient in a shampoo, which is intended to treat dandruff and seborrheic dermatitus. An example of something 'other' in shampoo that one wouldn't find in dish soap. An example also of a specific type of shampoo for a particular problem of the scalp skin.

Historically, hair has taken a beating. It's taken us a long time to find products that clean dishes well v. cleaning hair well. The need for cleaning dishes is different for hair. In these times, we've managed to differentiate. While it's true that many ingredients are the same, there are distinct differences. Sometimes it's the other ingredients that make the difference, not what's the same ingredients.

Remember, washing hair isn't about the hair so much as it is the scalp skin. It's a hygienic process to maintain a healthy acid mantle, that balance of sebum and sweat (salt) and attendant bacteria and yeasts that help ensure this balance.

I recommend, Andrew, a good read of my instructions on how to wash the hair because my guess is something about water quality, and rinsing more thoroughly, and perhaps even water temperature. My lengthy posts tend to be in the details.

Also, if both your shampoo and conditioner are "clarifying" this is rather odd. It is not needed in every shampoo and may be part of the reason you have a kind of weird buildup combined with a kind of dryness. In fact, I would argue that having a 'clarifying' agent contained within a conditioner is kind a null act. You can't strip away stuff and restore it in the same breath. These are separate actions to apply to the hair. How do you strip and condition at the same time? SO, I would also encourage a different choice in shampoo AND conditioner for your daily or general use, reserving this product suite for when you actually NEED to clarify. I wouldn't clarify in every hair wash as my default for washing the hair.

And no, do not apply conditioner to scalp skin as mentioned in my lengthy post.

heidi w.

[Presto]

I'm dying to know what degreaser you were using, Andrew?
.
As a conditioner only washer, I am confused at why conditioner shouldn't touch the scalp? Is that only the case for washers who use shampoo?
Because I certainly work it into my scalp, but my scalp has never been happier!

[manderly]

Andrew, what indications do you have that you aren't rinsing it all out? Bubbles? Gunk?

I'm starting to lean with Riot Crrl here and think you have some misconceptions about how hair should feel after conditioning. It should feel slippery and maybe just a tad slimy from what you may be used to. If you don't like that, you should skip the conditioner and see what just shampooed hair feels like (dry and tangly in my opinion)

[dancingbarefoot]

I don't use a lot of shampoo

Define "a lot," please. If you have above shoulder-length hair, a drop of shampoo the size of a dime is MORE than enough.

Also, if you have soft water, in my experience it will NEVER feel like you've rinsed all the conditioner out. Boo soft water! :silly:

[Andrew]

My main concern is I only get the scalp really good, the actual length of my hair and underneath feels greasy and looks dirty. Plus, for the life of me, I cannot remember ever having an easy time coming my hair, either after a shower or just waking up. My ends dry out and it clops together, be it with shampoo or not. I just want an appearance of clean hair as well as actually feeling it and it not being hard to untaggle or feeling greasy.

[Andrew]

bump......

[Riot Crrl]

How much shampoo are you using and how much conditioner?

[Ranee]

Heidi w. You're a walking encyclopaedia (am I spelling that right?)
Great info, I didn't know it was vital to use warm water in order to condishen hair! I always used cold water because I was afraid of damaging my hair. Thanx for the great info!!

[angelthadiva]

Thanks for asking that, RC!! I was thinking the same thing...
dancingbarefoot said:

Define "a lot," please. If you have above shoulder-length hair, a drop of shampoo the size of a dime is MORE than enough.

Just for reference, I'm at classic length, and I only use dime size amount of poo...I use about solid dollar size amount of condish.

You've been given lots of great advice--The only thing I would add is to make sure you are really rinsing thoroughly enough. I did see your picture, and I didn't think it looked greasy--At all...The longer your hair is the more tangly it will get, maybe wearing it in a more secure style will help to remedy that...

Read back through the thread, and take note of the advice given, and give them a try...You might want to start a journal--Or a blog here after you are off your restrictions, so you can keep track of what you've tried and what the results are.

Happy hair days ahead from me to you! :flower:

[Nevermore]

As a conditioner only washer, I am confused at why conditioner shouldn't touch the scalp? Is that only the case for washers who use shampoo?
Because I certainly work it into my scalp, but my scalp has never been happier!

I think this "rule" about conditioner comes from the idea that you'll be LEAVING it on the scalp, which probably isn't a very good idea. CO washing is based on rinsing the conditioner away when the washing is done. Of course, imo, there are many "rules" about hair care that are mostly about getting people to buy things (for instance, the "shampoo twice" rule, you go thru twice as much shampoo, plus more conditioner trying to keep your hair from feeling like straw because most people don't need to do that, especially daily).

[spidermom]

Sorry I am new, I meant grease cutter. I don't use a lot of shampoo and I rinse my head throughly, it just seems I can never get it all out without the aid of the dish soap.

Get yourself a squirt bottle. An empty shampoo or conditioner bottle will work nicely for this. Put some water in the bottle, add a conservative squirt of shampoo. Shake well. Stand or sit upright. Squirt shampoo solution all over your scalp area, then run your fingers over your scalp from forehead to nape of neck. Rinse. You can use a pitcher for this or stand under a running shower. Lift the top layers of hair so water can get to the underneath layers. Now fill your bottle with water and add a conservative squirt of conditioner. Shake well. Squirt all over your length from ear-level down. Then squeeze it through your hair with your hands. Rinse again.

If your hair is very thick, then wash half of it at a time using the same procedure. EXCEPT take all the hair above your ears and pin it up. Wash/rinse and condition/rinse the bottom part first. Then let the top part down and repeat.

Don't worry if your hair still feels a little slippery or greasy or slimey when you are finished. That is what conditioner does. It makes your hair easier to comb. If you follow my advice, when your hair is dry, it will not look greasy; I promise.

If you keep using dishwashing liquid, you are going to dry your hair out. It will not look or feel nice over the long term.

[Presto]

Andrew, you haven't answered many questions that will help us tell you what would be best to help you, but you bumped the thread.
Are you just searching for the miracle product that will give you the perfect hair seen in photoshopped TV commercials?
.
.
Well conditioned hair will feel a little slimy until it is dry. Just wanted to repeat that one more time. I'm guessing you get the right texture just before you add dishsoap.
Let it dry from that slippy feeling, completely dry, and see how it feels then.

[Riot Crrl]

At least he answered the dress cutter question, lol. That one had me rather boggled. :)

[eaglefeather71]

Get yourself a squirt bottle. An empty shampoo or conditioner bottle will work nicely for this. Put some water in the bottle, add a conservative squirt of shampoo. Shake well. Stand or sit upright. Squirt shampoo solution all over your scalp area, then run your fingers over your scalp from forehead to nape of neck. Rinse. You can use a pitcher for this or stand under a running shower. Lift the top layers of hair so water can get to the underneath layers. Now fill your bottle with water and add a conservative squirt of conditioner. Shake well. Squirt all over your length from ear-level down. Then squeeze it through your hair with your hands. Rinse again.


Thanks for this advice! I just started using CO yesterday, and it was a disaster. The first try, my hair was so oily it still looked wet when it dried. I had not read the CO instructions and bought a thick rich conditioner and didn't leave it on very long. So I immediatly did it again with a different conditioner (VO5, first time i've used something not natural in 10 mo, it was scarry), left it on longer, massaged more, and it was better but still flat and heavy. Mixing a very small amount of Dr. Bronners Liquid Castile Soap (for me, natural is better)in a large bottle of water to dilute it may be just what I need either right before or right after the CO washing. What do you all think?

[Riot Crrl]

Thanks for this advice! I just started using CO yesterday, and it was a disaster. The first try, my hair was so oily it still looked wet when it dried. I had not read the CO instructions and bought a thick rich conditioner and didn't leave it on very long. So I immediatly did it again with a different conditioner (VO5, first time i've used something not natural in 10 mo, it was scarry), left it on longer, massaged more, and it was better but still flat and heavy. Mixing a very small amount of Dr. Bronners Liquid Castile Soap (for me, natural is better)in a large bottle of water to dilute it may be just what I need either right before or right after the CO washing. What do you all think?

I hated putting Dr. Bronner's in my hair. YMMV. It's high pH like soap and shampoo bars, so vinegar rinse afterwards might help. (I didn't do that when I used it. I was out of shampoo and about 16 years old and it was circa 1987 and there was no LHC.)

[bunnii]

I have the problem with rinsing not working so i can't help, but, I been reading some of this thread and have heard of vinegar rinsing before but I have no idea what sort of vinegar to use and if its safe on dyed hair. I've also been getting an itchy scalp and i'm putting this down to build up, I need to dye my hair soon as i've got roots nearly 3 inches long :shocked: but I can't do it yet when my head itches :lol:

[Riot Crrl]

I have the problem with rinsing not working so i can't help, but, I been reading some of this thread and have heard of vinegar rinsing before but I have no idea what sort of vinegar to use and if its safe on dyed hair. I've also been getting an itchy scalp and i'm putting this down to build up, I need to dye my hair soon as i've got roots nearly 3 inches long :shocked: but I can't do it yet when my head itches :lol:

I don't know of anyone that had problems vinegar rinsing color treated hair.

A lot of people use apple cider, but I just use white. It should be well diluted in water. I use about one or two tablespoons in a pint of water.

[bunnii]

I don't know of anyone that had problems vinegar rinsing color treated hair.

A lot of people use apple cider, but I just use white. It should be well diluted in water. I use about one or two tablespoons in a pint of water.

righty thanks for that, but do I use it after i rinsed the condish out? (silly questions, sorry) do I leave it in? do i rinse it out? how long do I leave it in if so? hehe so many questions :p

[Riot Crrl]

righty thanks for that, but do I use it after i rinsed the condish out? (silly questions, sorry) do I leave it in? do i rinse it out? how long do I leave it in if so? hehe so many questions :p

Everyone kinda does it a different way I think... I leave it on a couple minutes then rinse, some people leave it in.

[manderly]

So Andrew, when you are wetting your hair in the shower, does the stream of water penetrate all your hair or just kind of wet the surface?

I ask because there have been times I had to wash my hair in very poor water pressure, and washing and rinsing was soooooooooooo difficult because the water didn't seem to get through the top layer of my hair.

In situations like that, I like to do a mermaid wash. Basically wash your hair while you take a bath, lean back, soak your hair, shampoo it, rinse in the water, condition, rinse in the tub water (I usually follow with a standup shower rinse to get the excess out).

[Andrew]

What questions haven't I answered? I use like a dime size blob of shampoo and conditioner.

[Riot Crrl]

If it's tangly, that's from not enough conditioner, not a lack of rinsing. Or that's my guess anyway.

[kwaniesiam]

Hey, I think I recognize that pic from BAF! Glad you found your way here.

You've been given a lot of great advice already, just experimenting to find what works for you is best. I'd suggest trying out some different products and getting a nice seamless wide toothed comb for detangling. Conair makes natural wood combs you can get at Target for like $7, I have one and it works very well.

[Eboshi]

What questions haven't I answered? I use like a dime size blob of shampoo and conditioner.

Andrew, we're trying to help you here. This post comes off as ungracious.

[manderly]

What questions haven't I answered? I use like a dime size blob of shampoo and conditioner.


Quite a few actually. I've asked you the same question twice, which you've completely ignored. I'm truly trying to help you here, along with a lot of other very nice people. We need some feedback. So far all we know is that:

you can't get the underpart of your hair to feel non greasy
what S&C you use
how much

If you take a moment to read all the comments in this thread you'll see a lot of people asking probing questions in an attempt to understand the situation.

[spidermom]

About the "hard to comb" comment -- try combing your hair after you put the conditioner in. Start at the very bottom and comb very gently as you work your way from ends to scalp. This might make the conditioner rinse out better as well.

Oh, and if you really hate how conditioner makes your hair feel, then coat your hair with conditioner and comb it through, then wash your scalp area with diluted shampoo as described earlier, then rinse and rinse and rinse. Then rinse one more time. Don't use more conditioner.

By the way - how do you wash your hair? Standing up in the shower? Bending over the sink or tub? Tell us in as detailed a manner as possible.

[Pegasus Marsters]

Is it me or is this thread going in circles? It seems people are asking questions and making suggestions just for the OP to totally ignore them and post the exact same complaints over and over :no:

[Andrew]

Did this today, will tell you how it feels when its dry.
Get yourself a squirt bottle. An empty shampoo or conditioner bottle will work nicely for this. Put some water in the bottle, add a conservative squirt of shampoo. Shake well. Stand or sit upright. Squirt shampoo solution all over your scalp area, then run your fingers over your scalp from forehead to nape of neck. Rinse. You can use a pitcher for this or stand under a running shower. Lift the top layers of hair so water can get to the underneath layers. Now fill your bottle with water and add a conservative squirt of conditioner. Shake well. Squirt all over your length from ear-level down. Then squeeze it through your hair with your hands. Rinse again.

If your hair is very thick, then wash half of it at a time using the same procedure. EXCEPT take all the hair above your ears and pin it up. Wash/rinse and condition/rinse the bottom part first. Then let the top part down and repeat.

Don't worry if your hair still feels a little slippery or greasy or slimey when you are finished. That is what conditioner does. It makes your hair easier to comb. If you follow my advice, when your hair is dry, it will not look greasy; I promise.

If you keep using dishwashing liquid, you are going to dry your hair out. It will not look or feel nice over the long term.

[Andrew]

Sorry if I seemed ungracious, I will answer all questions by tomorrow. Right now I can't be online for awhile...

[chloeishere]

What questions haven't I answered? I use like a dime size blob of shampoo and conditioner.

Here it is all in a nice list form for you! All the questions (up to this post at least) that you haven't answered.:flower:

(I added the bolding to make the questions more clear).


So Andrew, when you are wetting your hair in the shower, does the stream of water penetrate all your hair or just kind of wet the surface?

I ask because there have been times I had to wash my hair in very poor water pressure, and washing and rinsing was soooooooooooo difficult because the water didn't seem to get through the top layer of my hair.

In situations like that, I like to do a mermaid wash. Basically wash your hair while you take a bath, lean back, soak your hair, shampoo it, rinse in the water, condition, rinse in the tub water (I usually follow with a standup shower rinse to get the excess out).




By the way - how do you wash your hair? Standing up in the shower? Bending over the sink or tub? Tell us in as detailed a manner as possible.


Andrew, what indications do you have that you aren't rinsing it all out? Bubbles? Gunk?



Do you have hard water? If you have well water or you live in Canada (like me) chances are that you do. Hard water will make it hard to rinse out soap residue, so you'll need to do a vinegar or bottled water final rinse, or even consider investing in a water softener if its really bad.


Hi Andrew,

First thigns first, a few questions:

Could it be that you are cleaning your scalp fine but not giving enough time for the suds/conditioner to be rinsed from your length? I normally rinse for at least 3 minutes under a shower to make sure all the suds are gone, and I run my hands through my hair and under the top layers to make sure the clean water gets to my scalp too.

Do you wash 'bent forward' or standing up in a shower to let the soap run down your back? I find if I do the latter method, my hair isnt as rinsed clean as it is if I do the former.

I'll see if I can help more if you can give us more details. :)
Thanks
Lovi


I am totally lost in what this means?

Are you talking build up? or actual not being able to wash out suds?

(There are several repeats of the same question, but they were asked by different people at different times, so I included everything that hasn't been answered, regardless of whether it had already been asked).

Hope that helps! We want to help you, but we need information, first. It would also be rather helpful (in my opinion at least) if you would go through Fia's Hairtyping system and tell us your hairtype. Here is the link to the Hairtyping Article (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=5).

[angelthadiva]

I have the problem with rinsing not working so i can't help, but, I been reading some of this thread and have heard of vinegar rinsing before but I have no idea what sort of vinegar to use and if its safe on dyed hair. I've also been getting an itchy scalp and i'm putting this down to build up, I need to dye my hair soon as i've got roots nearly 3 inches long :shocked: but I can't do it yet when my head itches :lol:

I color and use ACV...I color on a regular basis too...Hey, I'll do yours if you do mine?! :D Seriously though, put about 1/8 cup vinegar...I prefer apple cider to white, both smell dreadful, but the acv not so much in comparision...And dillute, not sure the ratio, I just put it in the bottom of a large carafe, then fill the rest with water...For vinegar to be as cheap as it is, it works wonders and has many uses.

[Nat242]

Andrew, I had a problem at one point where my ends would never seem to dry - they were always lank and stringy. I'm not sure if this applies to you. I resolved it by diluting my shampoo so it wouldn't "strip" my hair as much, and only using a pea-sized drop of conditioner on the very ends of my hair (the last inch). My hair still needed moisture, and probably yours will too, so if your hair just doesn't like conditioner, you need to find other ways to keep your hair moisturised.

Other methods for moisture in addition to or instead of conditioner include the application of various oils, aloe vera gel, and/or shea or cocoa butter. I would suggest that you spend some time reading through various threads on the Mane forum and the Recipes forum to get some ideas. There's a lot of information out here, and without very specific details, all any of us can do is make general suggestions.

-- Natalie

[Andrew]

It's often suggested that you use a vinegar rinse to help with the rinsing. Are you using cone or cone-free products? It's possible that it's flat-out what you're using in your hair that isn't agreeing with it.I have no idea what cone or cone free products are, I use Suave.

[Andrew]

Seconded??

Well, what exactly IS your problem with not getting the soap out? Do you have very long/thick hair with lousy water pressure?

Just saying "I can't rinse my hair well" doesn't really help me help you. Could just be you're a lazy rinser.....I know my BF gets out of the shower with shampoo bubbles in his ear :shrug:

A little more information would help us give you the best advice :)It just seems as long and tough as I scrub I can't get it out. I have long and thick hair with decent water pressure.

[Andrew]

I don't know what a dress cutter is... :confused:

Anyway, are you using too much shampoo and conditioner? I used to have a problem with rinsing and my scalp would be itchy until my next wash. Use a little less product and rinse for a long time.
I dont think I am using too much.

[Andrew]

I am totally lost in what this means?

Are you talking build up? or actual not being able to wash out suds?
Yes, build up.

[Andrew]

What products are you using for shampoo and conditioner?Suave clarifying shampoo and conditioner.

[Andrew]

Do you have hard water? If you have well water or you live in Canada (like me) chances are that you do. Hard water will make it hard to rinse out soap residue, so you'll need to do a vinegar or bottled water final rinse, or even consider investing in a water softener if its really bad.My water seems fine.

[Andrew]

Hi Andrew,

First thigns first, a few questions:

How long is your hair? Could it be that you are cleaning your scalp fine but not giving enough time for the suds/conditioner to be rinsed from your length? I normally rinse for at least 3 minutes under a shower to make sure all the suds are gone, and I run my hands through my hair and under the top layers to make sure the clean water gets to my scalp too.

Do you wash 'bent forward' or standing up in a shower to let the soap run down your back? I find if I do the latter method, my hair isnt as rinsed clean as it is if I do the former.

Which shampoo and conditioner are you using at the moment?

I'll see if I can help more if you can give us more details. :)
Thanks
LoviI don't know how long my hair is, there is a picture in this thead, somewhere. Yeah, it could be. My scalp is usually clean. I wash standing up. Suave.

[Andrew]

I'm dying to know what degreaser you were using, Andrew?
.
As a conditioner only washer, I am confused at why conditioner shouldn't touch the scalp? Is that only the case for washers who use shampoo?
Because I certainly work it into my scalp, but my scalp has never been happier!
Reeva Ultra Dish Detergent-Bleach Alternative.

(Don't worry, it hasn't bleached any of my hair.)

[Andrew]

Andrew, what indications do you have that you aren't rinsing it all out? Bubbles? Gunk?

I'm starting to lean with Riot Crrl here and think you have some misconceptions about how hair should feel after conditioning. It should feel slippery and maybe just a tad slimy from what you may be used to. If you don't like that, you should skip the conditioner and see what just shampooed hair feels like (dry and tangly in my opinion)
gunk.......

[Andrew]

Define "a lot," please. If you have above shoulder-length hair, a drop of shampoo the size of a dime is MORE than enough.

Also, if you have soft water, in my experience it will NEVER feel like you've rinsed all the conditioner out. Boo soft water! :silly:About a dime size.

[Andrew]

Pretty much just the top layer.
So Andrew, when you are wetting your hair in the shower, does the stream of water penetrate all your hair or just kind of wet the surface?

I ask because there have been times I had to wash my hair in very poor water pressure, and washing and rinsing was soooooooooooo difficult because the water didn't seem to get through the top layer of my hair.

In situations like that, I like to do a mermaid wash. Basically wash your hair while you take a bath, lean back, soak your hair, shampoo it, rinse in the water, condition, rinse in the tub water (I usually follow with a standup shower rinse to get the excess out).

[Andrew]

Standing up in the shower.
About the "hard to comb" comment -- try combing your hair after you put the conditioner in. Start at the very bottom and comb very gently as you work your way from ends to scalp. This might make the conditioner rinse out better as well.

Oh, and if you really hate how conditioner makes your hair feel, then coat your hair with conditioner and comb it through, then wash your scalp area with diluted shampoo as described earlier, then rinse and rinse and rinse. Then rinse one more time. Don't use more conditioner.

By the way - how do you wash your hair? Standing up in the shower? Bending over the sink or tub? Tell us in as detailed a manner as possible.

[Nat242]

I have no idea what cone or cone free products are, I use Suave.

See this article. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=13)

You say your hair is "long" - we have members here with hair that's "long" at waist length, and members whose hair is "long" at ankle and floor length, and so you'll have to be a bit more specific.

-- Natalie

[manderly]

See this article. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=13)

You say your hair is "long" - we have members here with hair that's "long" at waist length, and members whose hair is "long" at ankle and floor length, and so you'll have to be a bit more specific.

-- Natalie


He posted a photo on the first page.....can't remember exactly, I think he was around APL or so.


Andrew, thank you for responding to all the questions, this helps a great deal.

You answered mine that you are only getting the top layer of your hair wet, not penetrating into the underparts.

I would suggest you experiment washing your hair the following 2 ways to see if it resolves the problem of the greasy gunk under your hair.

1. Wash you hair upside-down. Bend at the waist and wet the nape of your hair, wash and rinse this way. This will allow the water to get to the area it's had trouble reaching before.

2. Try washing your hair by floating it in a tub or sink of water. This way all your hair will definitely be getting enough product and water to it.

If you try those and they resolve your problem, then your issue sounds to me like a matter of your water pressure not being enough to penetrate through all the layers of your hair. You can either continue washing in the 2 methods I listed, or you can simply take the extra effort to part your hair down the center, wash, part your hair from ear to ear, wash. That way you will get all your hair nice and clean.

Hope that helps you, good luck!

[heidi w.]

I'm dying to know what degreaser you were using, Andrew?
.
As a conditioner only washer, I am confused at why conditioner shouldn't touch the scalp? Is that only the case for washers who use shampoo?
Because I certainly work it into my scalp, but my scalp has never been happier!

Different conditioners do work differently, and everyone's acid mantle balance can be different.

Examples:
I have a conditioner that definitely is only intended for hair length, and I also possess one that is actually intended for application to scalp skin. When used accordingly it works great.

I have seborrheic dermatitus which means the sebacious glands are super busy. Applying conditioner to my scalp skin would actually mean I have an even worse condition on my scalp skin. It would inflame the problem. Some with issues such as psoriasis, exzema, and other things I can think of may well have similar issues.

Those who are younger typically have quite the flow of sebum -- teenagers. They need more frequent washing, and if they applied conditioner, it may actually make their hair more stringly faster.

It just all depends. Depends on the health of your scalp skin and also depends on the products used themselves.

Some people who don't rinse well may end up with flakes not from dandruff, but of dried product such as conditioner. Some people end up clogging pores and upsetting the pH of the acid mantle (the acid mantle is relevant on all skin of the body, not just the scalp skin). Not all products are equal.

In general, most people produce plenty of sebum and thus do not need conditioner on the scalp because one's natural sebum does the job just fine, up to approximately 6 inches of hair length, depending on hair washing frequency.

In Curly Girl book discusses the reasons and type of conditioner and method for washing the hair with conditioner only. In my read of the book, only those with very, very curly--nearly kinky--high coils should apply conditioner to scalp skin. I hear the CO method here on LHC is not the same as Curly Girl. IF interested in Curly Girl products, this is under Devacurl. She created low- and no- poo shampoos and a variety of conditioners as well. The author is regularly featured in professional Salon magazines, usually under the herbal or organic methods for hair care. She also has a particular way of trimming this type of hair.

In a basic education program of how to wash hair, there's no way that I can cover all possible caveats including every hair type, every reason for washing hair with whichever methodology. Hair behavior is quite unique based on upon hair type, age of person, any health or skin issues, type of products chosen for what needs, hormones and genetics. Most stylists will tell you not to apply conditioner to scalp skin because of upsetting the acid mantle, but there are those conditioners designed for such application and between the shampoo and conditioner are pH balanced.

I tend to provide advice conservatively on purpose because I am not there and can't see what's really going on. Plus I never know who's reading and what idea they'll get -- along the lines of, well, if that's good then more must be better and thus get in trouble somehow and wonder what went wrong.

Here's a quick link that outlines the types of conditioners:
http://www.askabeauty.com/hair-conditioner-types.htm

Here's an example of scalp skin with psoriasis v. seborrheic dermatitus
http://www.revolutionhealth.com/conditions/skin/hair-care/scalp/psoriasis-s-d

Here's something on Acid Mantle -- this focuses on face skin, though
nice chart!
http://www.celibre.com/sksacid.aspx

I will agree it's hard to find stuff on conditioner and acid mantle and whether or not to apply to scalp skin on line. I have fairly good texts in my library, but that's all in boxes now PLUS I'm at work b/c I have a hard time getting online at home still.


Andrew - because of my firewalls I can't see the photos you posted.

heidi w.

[heidi w.]

Pretty much just the top layer.

This is woefully insufficient wetting as the shampoo can not emulsify without enough water and without enough temperature to the water. Go see my directions on how to wash the hair: I specifically point out how it takes a minute or more to THOROUGHLY WET the hair, and that you have to lift the hair to get the underside, and yes, tilt the head about.

Ever notice how dish soap (yes, back to dish soap!) is more viscous while the water is cooler, but once it warms up it really lathers and smears around and thins out? Same for shampoo.

If the hair isn't wet enough and too much shampoo is globbed on, in addition to too cool of temperature of water, then what is going on is this viscous stuff is being smeared on and sits on top -- and can't rinse out really well either because the temp is too cool. ETA: Not to mention that the hair is dirty, and already has a film from before....and the hair can't get really clean. This is known as buildup.

Then if you apply conditioner on top of that, then what you get when the hair dries is this kind of weird tacky mess, that's tangly, and your hair doesn't feel really clean. Also the shine can be duller, and it's as though there's a film on the hair.

Same problem with rinsing only amplified because now you smeared conditioner on top of viscous shampoo, and the penetration can't occur so easily.

heidi w.

[Riot Crrl]

In Curly Girl book discusses the reasons and type of conditioner and method for washing the hair with conditioner only. In my read of the book, only those with very, very curly--nearly kinky--high coils should apply conditioner to scalp skin. I hear the CO method here on LHC is not the same as Curly Girl. IF interested in Curly Girl products, this is under Devacurl. She created low- and no- poo shampoos and a variety of conditioners as well. The author is regularly featured in professional Salon magazines, usually under the herbal or organic methods for hair care. She also has a particular way of trimming this type of hair.

The book advocates conditioner only for everything past wavy. The model photographed to demonstrate conditioner washing is about 3b.

[heidi w.]

ok,
here's the Reeva Ultra Dish Detergent
https://www.gophergrocery.com/searchresults.asp

And
Bleach Alternative can be found in laundry detergent and dish and dishwasher detergents

Ugh!

Sweetie Pie.....

OK, take up a fine tooth comb and draw all your hair length back from the forehead hairline. You first need to start scritching before every hair wash. In rows that overlap proceed from the hairline back to the crown using little tiny scratching motions. Hold the comb at an angle, around 45 degrees, to loosen and lift grunge (sebum, dead skin cells, product)....then wash the hair.

It is VERY hard to help you because you aren't giving a lot of information. We need A LOT OF SPECIFIC details. You give it in bits & pieces. Hair type (coarse, soft, curly, body only, stick straight, age (this'll help us with if you're a teenager or an elderly person -- this affects sebum perhaps).

It may seem sometimes that these "de-greasers" are helping you, but it's only temporary. You're making it worse.

I am betting a lot of money on bad rinsing. I now KNOW you don't wet the hair enough!! (which is covered in my how to wash hair) I'm betting on the water temperature is too cool and the shampoo you use or even dish soap isn't emulsifying, that is, becoming thinner and more bubbly. I bet you only wash with shampoo one time; you need a minimum of 2 shampoo applications.

I'm even betting that your water quality isn't so awesome.

THE ANSWER IS IN THE DETAILS. 5 word sentences in bits & pieces don't help us help you.

Also, this thread has gone on long enough that any number of suggestions could've been tried by now, and you have yet to reply to any single suggestion as to whether something did or did not work! By now you've washed your hair at least once.

You've only posted twice and your left sidebar doesn't reveal any info about where you're from which would help me figure out about potential water quality issues.

My money's mostly on that you just aren't washing your hair properly especially using not-wet-enough hair and dish soap and bleach alternative stuff, but by now it's kinda gone far enough that you just need to clarify. If that Suave product isn't getting the job done, then try the baking SODA method posted. And follow it strictly!!! (Don't use Suave clarifying conditioner as the conditioner of choice. I would recommend Biolage's Conditioning Balm.....but any conditioner that ISN'T clarifying is what you need to replace what's being removed.)

Good luck.

I'd like some feedback on any suggestions you've tried here yet. You should have had one hair wash by now!

heidi w.

[heidi w.]

The book advocates conditioner only for everything past wavy. The model photographed to demonstrate conditioner washing is about 3b.

The book shows 3 methods for different levels of body. 2 do not apply conditioner to scalp skin; only 1 does. That's what I'm getting at: what degree of body she suggests using conditioner on the scalp skin.

heidi w.

[spidermom]

I hope the diluted method that I described helped. Do take the time to make sure that all of your hair is wet when you wash it. You may have to lift the top half of your hair up and get the bottom half wet, then drop the top part and get it wet. Do the same thing while rinsing.

At my length, the ends dry out, so I like to leave some conditioner in my hair. When I finish washing and rinsing, I apply a small amount of conditioner only to the bottom third of my hair and then squeeze the water left in my hair all the way from scalp through the ends (kind of like milking a cow). I don't do a final rinse.

[Riot Crrl]

The book shows 3 methods for different levels of body. 2 do not apply conditioner to scalp skin; only 1 does. That's what I'm getting at: what degree of body she suggests using conditioner on the scalp skin.

heidi w.

Not to split hairs, but I'm holding the book in my hand. There are two routines, wavy and corkscrew. The chapter on "African American hair" contains a brief suggestion to use the corkscrew routine, so maybe that's the third. In which case, two advocate rubbing conditioner on the scalp, and one does not. The only one that doesn't is wavy. It is true that the distinction is texture.