Cones + Oil = Summer Hair Experiment Advice?

[dorothea-brooke]

So I went back to cones a couple months ago; my hair seems to do well with cones in the summer. (Maybe because the air is not as dry?) So here is my question for y'all. My routine is wash once a week with Pantene poo +condish, then a tiny bit of Aveda confixor as a leave-in. This is my cone-loading day :D, after which I do WO about every other day + some Aubrey B5 gel as a leave-in. I sort of figure the cones are gradually washing out over the course of the week (Aubrey B5 has a bit of oil in it), so I don't need to clarify. Plus every 2 weeks I do a big hot oil treatment, which I know knocks out the cones. Then I start over again.

Do you think I'll be able to keep this up, I mean hair-chemistry-theory-wise? Obviously I know I'll have to just wait and see, but can I really get away with not clarifying with this routine?

thanks!
dorothea

[getoffmyskittle]

I hardly ever clarify, and I'm a cones and oil user. My hair never feels built up; I only clarify before doing a mayonnaise treatment, so that the DT can get to the hair without having to go through cones and oils.

[Riot Crrl]

I might be the wrong person to answer this but... when my routine was like that I couldn't get oil or anything to soak in. It just sat there then washed off. I never really clarified either and the cones just sat on there. The only thing that seemed to eat through it was the peroxide.

Out of everything I have read about silicones, oil removing it is not one of them.

[dorothea-brooke]

Out of everything I have read about silicones, oil removing it is not one of them.

Huh! I thought I remembered reading somewhere that everything is either water- or oil-soluble, so cones that don't wash out with WO will be removed by oils? :confused: Or am I just deluding myself??? :rolleyes:

dorothea

[getoffmyskittle]

Huh! I thought I remembered reading somewhere that everything is either water- or oil-soluble, so cones that don't wash out with WO will be removed by oils? :confused: Or am I just deluding myself??? :rolleyes:

dorothea

For solubility, a good rule of thumb is "like dissolves like." So, while it may not be 100% accurate to say everything is either water- or lipid-soluble, in general, nonpolar solvents dissolve nonpolar substances and polar solvents dissolve polar substances. Water is polar; so are water-soluble -cones (which is why they dissolve in water). Oils are nonpolar, and so are water-insoluble -cones, so it would make sense that they would dissolve in oil.

I think it's highly possible that you read a previous post where I said this. :p I have never read it anywhere either, but I was thinking about why my hair never seems to get super builduppy and I've had gen chem, and, well... a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

DavidN is a chemist, I'm going to shoot him a PM to see if he can come help us out!

[Riot Crrl]

Huh! I thought I remembered reading somewhere that everything is either water- or oil-soluble, so cones that don't wash out with WO will be removed by oils? :confused: Or am I just deluding myself??? :rolleyes:

dorothea

I'm pretty sure a lot of them are only detergent soluble.

Depending on which Pantene shampoo and how you are using it, that might be enough though. My problem was I never really put it on the ends ever. And I was usually using 2-in-1 which has cones of its own.

[dorothea-brooke]

Thanks, both of you! I eagerly await the Word of the Chemist.
;)

dorothea

[DavidN]

Good morning, everyone, and my apologies for being a little late, since I went to bed a bit early last evening.

Skitts, your theory makes perefect sense, and ironically, I never thought about oils being a replacement for a clarifying treatment or shampoo when using cones, and wishing to remove them. I am a "cones user" myself, but I do not use any oils. I shampoo twice a week, with one of the shampoos being a clarifying shampoo, the other a regular one. I do CO washes on the off days. I know that my hair is softer and better the day I clarify, and it is also generally better on less humid days.

All of you have an excellent point, that the oils should be able to "dissolve" the cones. However, I am not sure of the exact solubility of cones in oils, and perhaps a little research on the web for the exact solubility would be a good thing. Of course, to keep the mix of oils and comes from building up in the hair, they would also have to be removed during the washing routine. A regular shampoo, rather than the clarifying shampoo, should be sufficient to remove the mix of cones/oils, if my thinking is correct. (The detergents in regular shampoos remove oils)

Also, I should mention that there ARE a few substances that are not soluble in either water or oil, but those compounds are the exception.

[getoffmyskittle]

Thanks for coming over here, David!

I did some Googling and found this website:

http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/silicone_use.html


Silicone oils dissolve well in and will dissolve non-polar materials. These include essential oils, mineral oil, fixed oils, light esters, and sunscreen agents. Solubility decreases, however, as the size and
viscosity of the silicone increases.

Silicone gums are not soluble in fixed oils, but the carrier is. Thus the carrier dissolves, leaving the
gum as a troublesome blob.

The site also says that dimethicone is a "silicone oil" and that "silicone gums" can be used to give the hair instant shine. I don't really know the difference between a silicone oil and a silicone gum, other than the website says that "Botanisil" (which sounds like a brand name to me) is a silicone gum.

I have always heard that dimethicone is a water-soluble cone, but according to this website, that seems to not be the case.

Other than that one site, I can't seem to find any websites that discuss the -cones that are used in cosmetics. I did find one site that says -cones are basically insoluble in anything except hydrocarbon solvents, which doesn't seem right, since we know detergent emulsifies them. I suppose, however, that this does not necessarily mean that detergent can dissolve them at all... but then, why isn't my hair totally shrink wrapped? I use detergent-free shampoo. :p

The mystery continues!

[dorothea-brooke]

Thank you so much, DavidN and Skittle (hope you don't mind the "nickname" :) ). Such a treasure trove of info. I think for now I'll keep up this routine and see how it goes. On the days when I do my deep oil treatment, I do wash the oil out first with a big slathering of cone-free condish, then with regular Pantene poo. (Which also has cones in it -- another mystery!) So I think between the oils and the SLS in the poo, I'm probably cutting through those cones well enough.

I'll report back on this at the end of the summer and let y'all know if my hair is a gummy mess...! :p

cheers
dorothea

[Darkhorse1]

I've gone back to cones and my hair is happy :) I think they provide some serious blockage from the sun. I'm getting my hair colored next week (semi permanent, no peroxide), so I'm sure my hair will be mega shiny. I LOVED the mayonaise though! That was a godsend to my hair!!

If you are outdoors a lot, I think the cones are a huge help to protecting your hair :)

[danacc]

I have always heard that dimethicone is a water-soluble cone, but according to this website, that seems to not be the case.


According to "To Cone or Not to Cone (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=13)" in the Articles section, Dimethicones are not water soluble, with the exception of Dimethicone Copolyol.

Interesting discussion, by the way, thanks for sharing!

[danacc]

On a closer reading, the following Dimethicone is listed as water soluble in the Article:
Dimethicone Copolyol


The following Dimethicones are listed as somewhat water soluble:
Behenoxy Dimethicone
Bisamino PEG/PPG-41/3 Aminoethyl PG-Propyl Dimethicone
Cyclopentasiloxane (&) Dimethicone
PEG/PPG-20/15 Dimethicone
PEG-12 Dimethicone
Stearoxy Dimethicone


The following Dimethicones are listed as not water soluble:

Cetyl Dimethicone
Cyclomethicone (&) PEG/PPG-20/15 Dimethicone
Dimethicone (&) Laureth-4 (&) Laureth-23
Dimethicone (from 1 to 1,000,000 cs)
Diphenyl Dimethicone
Stearyl Dimethicone

[danacc]

...On the days when I do my deep oil treatment, I do wash the oil out first with a big slathering of cone-free condish...

From what I am reading, I think this will work. Particularly with a warm oil treatment, it is highly likely that the 'cones found in hair products will form a solution with the oil. The heat will encourage them to form a solution. I assume the cone-free conditioner then causes the oil/'cone solution to disengage from the hair, and it is all washed away when rinsed.


...then with regular Pantene poo. (Which also has cones in it -- another mystery!) So I think between the oils and the SLS in the poo, I'm probably cutting through those cones well enough.

...

Many shampoos now contain conditioning ingredients in addition to cleansing ones. The 'cones in a shampoo can be suspended in the product. It is possible to delay their release until after the SLS does it's cleansing magic. During rinsing, the 'cones are finally released onto the hair. There is a decent article on this process here: Take Two Bottles into the Shower? (http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2005/January/Taketwobottles.asp)

[dorothea-brooke]

Many shampoos now contain conditioning ingredients in addition to cleansing ones. The 'cones in a shampoo can be suspended in the product. It is possible to delay their release until after the SLS does it's cleansing magic. During rinsing, the 'cones are finally released onto the hair. There is a decent article on this process here: Take Two Bottles into the Shower? (http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2005/January/Taketwobottles.asp)

Wow -- very interesting article. Thanks for the link (even though my head is now spinning a bit! :p)

cheers
dorothea

[shellblue1]

Wow, great thread. :)

[paper]

I have a big bottle of cone shampoo, I quit using because it made my hair dry and frizzy. I don't like to waste anything, so I use it every once in a while. I used it yesterday and my hair looks and feels great. It is wierd any other time it looks awful after.

[dorothea-brooke]

I have a big bottle of cone shampoo, I quit using because it made my hair dry and frizzy. I don't like to waste anything, so I use it every once in a while. I used it yesterday and my hair looks and feels great. It is wierd any other time it looks awful after.

This has been my general experience too.... I just keep going back and forth between cones and no-cones. After a few months no-cones, I can't stand the tangles anymore and go back to Pantene. After a few months of Pantene, my hair starts to build up and gets very dry, so I clarify and go back to no-cones.... :shrug:

I'm hoping this new system of both at once -- with the oil treatments cutting through the cones -- will enable me to finally come up with a more-or-less stable routine!

cheers
dorothea

[getoffmyskittle]

This has been my general experience too.... I just keep going back and forth between cones and no-cones. After a few months no-cones, I can't stand the tangles anymore and go back to Pantene. After a few months of Pantene, my hair starts to build up and gets very dry, so I clarify and go back to no-cones.... :shrug:

I'm hoping this new system of both at once -- with the oil treatments cutting through the cones -- will enable me to finally come up with a more-or-less stable routine!

cheers
dorothea

A lot of people have trouble with Pantene, even people who can use other cones. Maybe try to find a conditioner with fewer cones? Aussie Moist worked well for me for a loooong time, and I recently switched to Dove, which seems to be working even better, but is definitely more coney. (I switched quite frankly because I got tired of the smell. :p)

[BlackfootHair]

A lot of people have trouble with Pantene, even people who can use other cones. Maybe try to find a conditioner with fewer cones? Aussie Moist worked well for me for a loooong time, and I recently switched to Dove, which seems to be working even better, but is definitely more coney. (I switched quite frankly because I got tired of the smell. :p)

I love that conditioner! It smells like apples or something. I bet you enjoyed smelling your hair after washing it!

If I use Dabur Vatika oil and a cone spray leave -in, we are talking major grime! Otherwise I'm fine.

[dorothea-brooke]

A lot of people have trouble with Pantene, even people who can use other cones. Maybe try to find a conditioner with fewer cones? Aussie Moist worked well for me for a loooong time, and I recently switched to Dove, which seems to be working even better, but is definitely more coney. (I switched quite frankly because I got tired of the smell. :p)

Interesting idea! Once I use up these current bottles of Pantene (which will take a long time what with washing only once a week, sigh) I'll give Aussie Moist or Dove a try....

On second thought -- what's the back of the medicine cabinet for, anyway??? :eyebrows:

dorothea