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JessiBird89
December 20th, 2011, 07:16 PM
Hi everyone, I hope you can help me out on a problem I have with my baby-fine hair. It's longer and healthier than it has been in many years and yet it is beginning to behave in the way that used to make me cut it! :(

I'm talking about constant tangles, stringiness, dry ends, limp and flyaway at the same time. I use sulphate-free shampoo, cone-free conditioner, never heat-style and am very gentle with my hair. I tried using oil during the day in my hair but it seems to make my hair so greasy, even using light oils like apricot kernel oil and jojoba. So I usually just use oil to deep condition my hair overnight.

I also feel I need a good clarifying shampoo. I've never purchased one as I don't know which one is the best or if I should get a chelating shampoo (I live in a hard water area)

I think wearing my hair up would solve a lot of problems but my hair is either too slippy to stay up or makes my face look very ''severe'' (I have a strong jaw and hate when my hair isn't framing my face a little) I am so envious of some of you long-haired that do the most beautiful up-dos :o. Anyone know some good up-dos to suit my situation? I want to just enjoy my hair, not struggle with it constantly.

Carissamarie08
December 20th, 2011, 07:19 PM
No advice here, because I am opposite from you and my thick coarse hair drives me nuts.

JessiBird89
December 20th, 2011, 07:24 PM
Ha ha, I have a friend with thick coarse hair and they don't know what I'm complaining about either. I want volume and thickness!! :)

JadeTigress
December 20th, 2011, 07:55 PM
Ah, the 'joys' of long hair. Finally, someone who understands my pain. :p I have all of these problems, and I still can't figure out how to deal with them. I treat my hair very gently and stay away from heat as well, but I finally gave in and went back to sulfate shampoos to combat the greasiness. Sulfate-free just wasn't doing it for me. My hair still gets horribly oily by the end of the day, but it's a little bit better atleast.

As far as conditioner goes, it always made my hair even more limp and greasy looking, no matter if it was cone-free or not. For a long time I just didn't use conditioner because of how it made my hair look, and it made it get greasier faster. Yeah, it helped with detangling (sometimes), but it wasn't worth the stringy, limp, flat hair that looked like I'd gone forever without washing it. Now I've discovered Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition, and it's the only conditioner that I can stand the way my hair looks after I use it. My hair still looks a little on the flat side after using it, but nothing like it looked with other conditioners. And I feel like it works way better for detangling than those other ones, too. I don't use it every wash, though, only when I feel like my hair needs an especially good conditioning. So I end up using it maybe once or twice every couple weeks or so.

When I don't user conditioner, I oil. I have the same problem with oils; it makes my hair greasy and limp and all that other horrible stuff, but even worse. Even the really light oils. I just can't use it on dry hair. I can't even use it pre-wash; my hair comes out looking terrible. The only way I can use oil (I use either coconut or Wild Growth Hair Oil & Light Oil Moisturizer) is to use a very small amount on my hair right after I've washed it and squeezed most of the excess water. But my hair still needs to be really wet; I can't even wait 10 minutes. If I'm going to use the oil, it has to be immediately after I've washed it.

And I don't know if you should do clarifying or chelating, but for a really good clarifying I really like baking soda. I actually was using that instead of shampoo to wash my hair for awhile. It really helped with the oiliness, and for the first time I could go a day (or sometimes even two!) without washing (I didn't do the ACV with it though; ACV makes my hair super stringy and gross just like everything else). I really liked the results, and would still be using it now if it didn't lighten my hair. It didn't lighten it a ton, but it lightened it enough that it was noticeable to me atleast.

And slippery hair that won't stay in an updo. Can't really help you there. :p Pretty much the only thing I've found that will hold my hair all day, as long as I put it up just right, is a claw clip I had that had the inside part lined with rubber textured grippy stuff. My hair grew and now it won't fit in there, so I'm trying to find a bigger one. For right now I'm having to stick with ponytails, or half-thru ponytails if I want my hair off my neck. I hate it, but I have nothing else to put it up with that will actually hold. Not that the ponytails hold; I'm constantly re-doing them.

I hope I was able to help a little bit, and if you find anything that works for you, please tell me! We seem to be hair twins. :)

JessiBird89
December 20th, 2011, 08:44 PM
Hey JadeTigress! Hooray for being hair twins!

I'd love to try that Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition - wonder if I can purchase it in Ireland. If not, I guess eBay can help me out. :) I'm also going to try using oil when my hair is wet because i only used it on dry hair or 'almost dry' hair before. It might stop those blasted flyaways!

I think I'm going to stick with my sulphate-free shampoo until it runs out and the try the baking soda - it sounds promising! After I wash and airdry my hair (in a bun on the top of my head to help with volume) it isn't too bad but the next day (sometimes later in the same day) it gets a bit greasy. The day after that, I'm a slimeball! I stretched my washes to every 3 days which unfortunately means I get about 2 'kinda good' hair days a week. It sucks! I ponytail it when its greasy and it looks gross - basically just plastered to my scalp with oil! Yuck! And i have to keep re-doing my ponytails through out the day too! There should be an emotional support hotline for people with hair like us :D I guess LHC is like that
in a way.

I'm going to try a proper clarifying shampoo (in case the stringiness is build-up related) and give the Garnier stuff a go plus the baking soda. Thank you so much for the advice! I'll let you know if I find something helpful for our hair problems :)

uptosomeone
December 20th, 2011, 08:57 PM
I've got really similar hair to you too, and also adore Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition conditioner with a passion! My hair works so well with it. With other conditioners it dries weird and gets stringy. Oils I never use at all unless it's a tiny (and I mean barely on my fingers) on dry ends, and even then I have to be careful about how much I put. I use jojoba; EVOO looks awful in my hair and doesn't do anything worth talking about anyway.

I know what you mean when you're talking about your hair not staying up. Goody makes the smaller claw clips with the rubber on the inside (that's what I use), so maybe they make larger ones that you can order online or something. One thing I've found is that my first day hair is so slippery that I oftentimes have to leave it down for at least six hours to 'dirty' before it'll go up. If it's dirty though I'll be able to put it up with one stretched out bobby pin, spin pins, or a claw clip and it'll stay up for the entire day! It's annoying because I have bangs that get greasy, but I'm willing to wash them separately for updos that don't end up as downdos.

As far as severity goes, do you have any face-framing layers? I prefer my face with hair around it so it doesn't look severe so I have shorter pieces that fall around my face. It softens the look of nearly all of my updos (or rather, should I say updo? I do a variation of a cinnabun every day; French twists are too much work, even though they stay up).

This probably has a million typos and not a lot of sense....I hope you can decipher it. :o

KiwiBum
December 20th, 2011, 09:07 PM
I also have very thin/fine hair that I've struggled with for years. I had the exact same problems with it being flat, limp and stringy with lots of tangles, but my ends were always dry and dead looking. All I ever wanted was volume and that's the one thing I never had. I almost never wear my hair up and don't really have enough of it to pull off good updo's either. It's been very frustrating over the years. However, there is hope!

In the last several months of experimenting I've realized the best thing I've done for my hair is extending washes. I used to wash my hair every day because it would get stringy, limp and oily half way through the day after I washed it. Commercial shampoos and conditioners were part of the problem for me too I think. The sulfates were too harsh and the cones weighed it down and caused too much build up. And that's a serious shame because I LOVED the way most of them smelled. But I was seriously washing the life out of my hair.

Now I wash it once every 3-4 days, and it doesn't get stringy and limp until the end of day 3 or day 4. And the longer I stayed at it, the more my hair got used to it. I also use shampoo bars to wash with. They leave it light and fluffy and it stays clean longer when I use them.

I also recently started oiling my hair once a week before washing using a castor oil, rosemary and lavender mix with good results. It adds a lot of shine and a little body to my hair, and I've actually noticed some new hair growth. The way I use it is I massage my scalp with it and apply some on the ends about an hour before I wash it, and about 10 mins before I wash it I slather it with a cone-free conditioner and let it sit until I get in the shower. Then I rinse it really good and follow up by washing with a shampoo bar. Just make sure you rinse really good. ;)

My hair went through a night and day difference when I switched to my current routine. It looks and feels so much healthier than it has in years. I actually have some volume to my hair now - not tons, but more than before. A lot of people commented that my hair looks fuller which is nice because I know its not just me who notices a difference!

I think using all natural products to wash my hair has a good effect on it but I feel that extending washes is the real key to it looking and feeling better.

Anyway I hope some of this info helped! :)

shikara
December 20th, 2011, 10:27 PM
I recently posted a thread about an updo method for fine thin hair. If you cant easily find it, google long hair community updo solves problems fine, and it should come up. Dont be afraid of the bobby pins. If your hair is conditioned, and quality pins are inserted and taken out gently, there should be no problems. My album has lots of updos using this method.

I didnt really like oils. Sometimes its as if they change their structure as the hours pass and make my hairs kind of glum together. I did an experiment tonight that was a huge success for me - we'll see as time goes on. Ive stayed away from protein because of so many drying out stories ive heard, but I also read that many fine hairs have. tendency to lose their protein, the very thing that helps with so manY of our problems. Hesitant to try an actual protein treTment, I washed my hair with Mill Creek Keratin shampoo from the health store, followed by a deep moisturizing. Loreal was what i had on hand. As soon as it was dry I worked a small amount of African Gold Coconit Oil Suoer Rich Hair Conditioner ( a jar to last a lifetime was about fice bucks) thru the bottom half of my length. Its actually a petrolatum based product. My own research has led me to believe that it is not an evil entity to avoid at all costs. I wont go into it here, but if you want my reasons, you can messafe me. And until something comes out that does the same or better in trial sizes so I dont have to spend all my money on products that end up being useless to me, you can find me in the isle that sells hair products for black men and women!!:cheese:

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/lmarie29/th_a5642814.jpg (http://s1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb328/lmarie29/?action=view&current=a5642814.jpg)

shikara
December 20th, 2011, 10:45 PM
Oh yeah I forgot to say, although i thought it could never be done on my hair, I now fingercomb only. After only a day or so youll become familiar with how to work with your hair. The idea of rinning out for something with my hair down doesnt terrify me anymore because i knowi can work through it fairly easily without breakage:cheese:

almond
December 20th, 2011, 10:45 PM
I have the same hair type with the same problems.
I used to live in a hard water area earlier too, and at that time i gave up using conditioner, as it seemed to make things worse. I had no idea about cones/no cones back then, so I don't know what I used. But not using conditioner made my hair even more tangled and dry. Now coney conditioners seem to work, but I need to dilute them and can't put any close to my roots.

Be careful with baking soda, it solves oily scalp problems, but is very very drying. I used it with ACV rinse for a while, but it was extremely hard to detangle my hair. :eek: Baking soda with conditioner might be a good option.
I wash my hair twice a week and on the first days it's very flyaway. I can use coconut oil, but only a few drops and only when my hair is wet, otherwise i can't wear it down, because my ends stick together. I saw that some members use home made leave-in conditioner and I just tried it: few drops of conditioner, few drops of coconut oil and filling up the bottle with water. If I spritz this on my hair after drying, it helps with detangling and with the flyaways too.

I look very severe with most updos too and most buns just slip down. I found that high buns and fake bangs look better on me. Double braids are not something I would want to wear every day, so one side braid is another option. French braid also stays in my slippery hair for a long time.
The only thing that can hold my hair securely is claw clip, preferably the one with rubber on it. If I make a cinnabun or a braided bun with 3 claw clips, that usually holds all day.

I'm sure we can grow healthy long hair :flower:

holothuroidea
December 20th, 2011, 11:11 PM
Oh the things I have to look forward to!

ETA: If you feel your face is too severe for a pulled back updo you might find that "loose" or "messy" type updos are more flattering.

Elia
December 21st, 2011, 12:15 AM
I have the same issues, it's horrible! I'm still struggling with tangles and dryness at the ends....I feel like my hair is never going to be long and healthy :( Although getting a chelating shampoo did help! That's what you use for hard water buildup. I use the joico chelating shampoo that I've heard a lot on here. You shouldn't do it often though because it's very harsh. Also when I put my hair up I usually do leave a "faceframe" of hair around my face and it helps :)

hanne jensen
December 21st, 2011, 01:49 AM
I have fine, fragile hair too. I just don't have greasies. If I blink my eyes, my hair will tangle or break.

What helps me is Ktanis Movie Star Shampoo Method. There's an article about it.

Libbylou
December 21st, 2011, 02:44 AM
I will be following this thread. I have the same fine slippy hair as the rest of you. I also have hard well water. I wash every day cept for days off work. No condish. And my hair only will work with a pony. I suspect these dog gone layers are the reason for this(that is what I hope).
Using non sls shampoo and evo sometimes before wash.
Trying a couple drops of baby oil on wet hair for the static problems this time of year. See how that works out.

hototogisu
December 21st, 2011, 03:58 AM
Why don't you use sulphates/cones? Does your scalp have a sensitivity to sulphates? A sulphate shampoo could clarify your hair in the way you need - I like Garnier Pure Shine shampoo to clarify.

I have fine hair but it's not slippery in the way you describe. I really love dry shampoos and styling powders to get texture and volume, especially for updos. Styling powders differ from dry shampoos as they're - how do I explain? - kind of 'wet'. Brands include Osis Dust It, but there are cheaper versions available. You'll definitely need to shampoo to get them out, but they're not damaging. Good luck!

hototogisu
December 21st, 2011, 04:02 AM
Another piece of advice - we fine-haired women simply need to wash our hair more often. I wash every other day. I find CWC really helps my lengths, but my hair feels much better after I just accepted the fact that I can't stretch washes.

indiana
December 21st, 2011, 04:57 AM
Another fine hair here! I'm currently washing daily with a regular shampoo. Can't skip a day, have to daily wash. I've tried for over a year to stretch my washes and my hair just won't allow it. Conditioner is my friend and helps get the shed hairs and subsequent tangles out while washing. Personally, I like jojoba oil after washing while still wet but that may be a personal preference.

If your hair is super slippery (mine sure is!), try to create your updo while it's still wet. I wear hair sticks almost every day but I always make my bun while it's wet. At the end of the day, it's usually still damp. But, if I bun it up dry the whole thing comes sliding down in an hour or so. Claw clips work well also. They can bump up your bun volume if you use them in the middle of your bun.

My hair drives me nuts sometimes but I'm sure every hair type can say the same. Just take the time to learn what works for you!

Lilli
December 21st, 2011, 06:08 AM
I would skip the baking soda as it is very harsh. I have a well and use a chelating shampoo about once a month and it works wonders. I have the Joico chelating shampoo. Try that first and it may solve all your problems.

jojo
December 21st, 2011, 06:32 AM
i have very fine hair, which is thick but can be a pain in the butt! You need more protein, i have found with fine hair as it doesn't have a cortex so is prone to breakage. It also does better with washes every 3 days, so your wetting it less, wet hair= more chance of breakage.

My routine is I oil the very ends every morning lightly and then I put it up. Every 3 days I wash using Inecto coconut moisturising shampoo and conditioner and then once a fortnight I use Mane N tail for protein, every 2 months I use ApHogee 2 step for a heavy duty protein treatment, followed by a DC. I also try and fit a DC in most weeks and I clarify using tresemme deep clean, baking soda makes my hair like straw!

I do wear my hair down around the house but braid it with no elastic for bedtime and I use a satin pillow case, thats it!

jojo
December 21st, 2011, 06:33 AM
I would skip the baking soda as it is very harsh. I have a well and use a chelating shampoo about once a month and it works wonders. I have the Joico chelating shampoo. Try that first and it may solve all your problems.

i use this from time to time; its lovely. Makes my hair feel so soft and you don't even need to use a conditioner after either.

Delila
December 21st, 2011, 08:56 AM
I'm a fan of the Joico Chelating shampoo too. I use it once in a while and it does seem to help.

holothuroidea
December 21st, 2011, 09:03 AM
What exactly is chelating shampoo and how can I tell if I need it?

I've also been wondering about protein. Maybe I should give it a shot but I don't want to buy new stuff.

UP Lisa
December 21st, 2011, 09:25 AM
A chelating shampoo removes hard water deposits (minerals) from the hair.



What exactly is chelating shampoo and how can I tell if I need it?

I've also been wondering about protein. Maybe I should give it a shot but I don't want to buy new stuff.

UP Lisa
December 21st, 2011, 09:26 AM
Octopus clips hold very well. They stay all day.

holothuroidea
December 21st, 2011, 09:51 AM
A chelating shampoo removes hard water deposits (minerals) from the hair.

Yes but how would I know if I needed it? Our water is medium hardness but everything weighs my hair down. For the past couple weeks a clarifying wash has helped but the last time I clarified it did nothing for me. I'm wondering if I have some build up that baking soda can't remove and what I should use for that.

hototogisu
December 21st, 2011, 10:59 AM
Yes but how would I know if I needed it? Our water is medium hardness but everything weighs my hair down.

For me, rough, dry, 'velcroey' ends are a sure sign I need to clarify, and since I live in a hard water area and don't really use styling products (plus I use a sulphate shampoo regularly) I know the build up is mineral.

holothuroidea
December 21st, 2011, 11:11 AM
Hm. Maybe I should just give it a go and see if it helps. I hope it's not expensive! I know I should try protein, too. One thing at a time!!! lol

Anyway, I was looking through old pictures of myself and I noticed a phase where my hair looked incredible. The shine was blinding. I remember the exact shampoo and conditioner I used back then, too, because these pictures of me were with my High School sweetheart and he loved the way the shampoo smelled so I used it all the time. It was Neutrogena Clean. I looked up the ingredients and CONES! How can a rinse-clean shampoo/conditioner have cones in it?

Anyway, my hair is shiny enough without the cones so I'm not too fussed over it. That shine was so incredible it looked unnatural. If the mood strikes me and people want to see I'll scan the photo.

I just thought it was strange because everything I hear about fine hair screams stay away from 'cones.

UP Lisa
December 21st, 2011, 11:47 AM
I use conditioners with cones on my length, but I don't like to put them on my scalp.

One thing that made it clear to me that I needed Chelating shampoo was that I had a lot of Red in my hair. I liked it, but it wasn't natural for me. It was iron from my water. The minerals also make my hair more tangly.

What I always wonder is if I use a chelating shampoo, do I still need a clarifying shampoo?



Hm. Maybe I should just give it a go and see if it helps. I hope it's not expensive! I know I should try protein, too. One thing at a time!!! lol

Anyway, I was looking through old pictures of myself and I noticed a phase where my hair looked incredible. The shine was blinding. I remember the exact shampoo and conditioner I used back then, too, because these pictures of me were with my High School sweetheart and he loved the way the shampoo smelled so I used it all the time. It was Neutrogena Clean. I looked up the ingredients and CONES! How can a rinse-clean shampoo/conditioner have cones in it?

Anyway, my hair is shiny enough without the cones so I'm not too fussed over it. That shine was so incredible it looked unnatural. If the mood strikes me and people want to see I'll scan the photo.

I just thought it was strange because everything I hear about fine hair screams stay away from 'cones.

PrairieRose
December 21st, 2011, 11:54 AM
Fellow fine hair gal here:) My hair is APL and I find I can twist my hair and use a hair stick. It will usually hold and seems to keep it form looking to harsh. I also like spin pins, they hold will too.

heidi w.
December 21st, 2011, 12:15 PM
Hi everyone, I hope you can help me out on a problem I have with my baby-fine hair. It's longer and healthier than it has been in many years and yet it is beginning to behave in the way that used to make me cut it! :(

I'm talking about constant tangles, stringiness, dry ends, limp and flyaway at the same time. I use sulphate-free shampoo, cone-free conditioner, never heat-style and am very gentle with my hair. I tried using oil during the day in my hair but it seems to make my hair so greasy, even using light oils like apricot kernel oil and jojoba. So I usually just use oil to deep condition my hair overnight.

I also feel I need a good clarifying shampoo. I've never purchased one as I don't know which one is the best or if I should get a chelating shampoo (I live in a hard water area)

I think wearing my hair up would solve a lot of problems but my hair is either too slippy to stay up or makes my face look very ''severe'' (I have a strong jaw and hate when my hair isn't framing my face a little) I am so envious of some of you long-haired that do the most beautiful up-dos :o. Anyone know some good up-dos to suit my situation? I want to just enjoy my hair, not struggle with it constantly.

First of all, clarifying and chelating are NOT the same thing. Clarifying removes buildup on the surface of the hair, what's on top of the top outside layer of hair. Chelating removes stuff adhered to the cortex, and is often performed in advance of say, perming the hair or coloring the hair.

You can make your own clarifying recipe at home. Baking soda is a common ingredient. There's also a book titled Naturally Healthy Hair that I feel should be on every long haired person's bookshelf. It discusses how hair grows, the cycle. And it has tons of homemade recipes for rinses, and also conditioner and shampoos. The last chapter or so is devoted to styling.

Here's a link to this book that is usually not stocked on bookstore shelves, so more than likely you will have to order it.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Naturally_healthy_hair.html?id=zO-NW5ihnv0C
Shows a picture of the cover so you know what it looks like. The author is Mary Beth Janssen.

I never, ever recommend chelating as a first step. I always recommend to try clarifying first, maybe as many as two times, before advancing to chelating.

I am a fine-haired, stick straight long haired person. My hair tangles miserably and easily. To solve this problem, and protect myself from getting trapped in all kinds of silly situations, I wear my hair up 99.9% of the time. It's the only way even though I use a great conditioner and sleep also on a satin pillowcase, so that hair slides. My hair is long and heavy enough that it tends to stay put now, during the night.

It sounds to me that you need some help with updos, and how to form reliable ones. If using hairpins or bobbypins, you have to pin as you go; not wait til the end and pin it. It'll fall out. ETA: Also, I found as my hair become longer, in an updo, I had to change the type of pins I was using. I had to advance to longer hair pins than bobbypins, which are technically known as "roller" pins. I had to also develop a way of pinning such that I formed a network of bobbypins overlapping each other. Over time, I was able to use fewer and fewer pins, til I could get away with 8 for your basic rolled up bun. Updos require practice. END ETA You have to pin the inner hair or the inner hair will fall out. Also, hair will style better if you allow even one day between hair washing. That sebum provides a little bit of "stick". All stylists know this about hair. I have found with using sticks that firmness of sticking in the stick is required and firmness kind of close to the head matters, and it takes a teensy bit of practice to know the right feel. Even so, my hair slides during the day (it's heavy, and heavier if it's wet), and sometimes during the day, I have to redo the updo and stick thing. It's just the way it is.

I also sugges that you may need to get to know your hair a little bit. There's a solution for every long haired problem--and cutting isn't it. Cutting doesn't allow it to become longer. Point blank. So if you want longer tresses, take that option off the table. Years ago I won a long haired ponytail contest and they were taking pictures with the "Queen" at the time, I think the state beauty queen. And she asked me how I got such long hair, and I shot back, not thinking I was being rude, but just answering her question, "I didn't cut it." It's the only way to longer hair, no cutting. Most people have no idea whatsoever what having long hair is like and what it takes. It's actually pretty simple and easy, but there is stuff you gotta know. Part of that is just learning about your own hair and suspending expectations or fantasies of what you thought it would be like.

How one sleeps with longer tresses; how one detangles; washes the hair; the things one has to watch out for for such as getting trapped by one's hair getting caught in something; being aware of safety issues and long hair -- it takes time to learn and it does mean you have to do stuff differently than shorter haired people. It's just part of the deal, and you decide a length of comfort for yourself. Not everyone is comfortable with really long hair. But thankfully, most going for uber lengths know that things change along the way as you become longer and longer, and thankfully it takes enough time that you have plenty of time to adjust along the way, as needed.

If your hair falls out of updos you might prefer to explore using a hair "fork" -- that is a two-teeth hair stick, or in the world of antique hair combs, it's known as a pin. It offers tons more holding power, and I find distributes the weight of an updo a little more comfortably.

I hope I've been of some help. I just don't think that cutting is your solution if you really want longer hair. It doesn't grow back that fast.

heidi w.

summerjade
December 21st, 2011, 12:18 PM
My hair is fine too and it is hard to find the right solutions for fine hair. Personally, my hair does not do well with any of the oils, it just makes my hair flat. The more I try to use it the flatter it gets, not matter how much I use or don't use. I use Lanza body building shampoo and a tiny amount of the same in conditioner. I alternate with Joico body lux shampoo and conditioner. These have worked best for me. I wash every day to avoid the flat hair syndrome. I just like my hair clean and fresh washed and it works for me. My scalp also gets itchy if I don't wash daily. I hope you find a routine that is right for you and that works well for you.

heidi w.
December 21st, 2011, 12:22 PM
What I always wonder is if I use a chelating shampoo, do I still need a clarifying shampoo?

No.

heidi w.

heidi w.
December 21st, 2011, 12:33 PM
I would skip the baking soda as it is very harsh. I have a well and use a chelating shampoo about once a month and it works wonders. I have the Joico chelating shampoo. Try that first and it may solve all your problems.

When you search for a clarifying OR chelating shampoo, it should have these words on the bottle's label, sometimes in smaller print, but it should be there.

If you use Baking Soda homemade recipe, you MUST condition really well as part of that hair wash, or you will not be replacing what's been removed, and you'll end up with a true disaster in your hair. Also do not combine baking soda and vinegar. Use them separately. Not everyone has a positive experience with a homemade recipe that uses Baking Soda, but I have no problems. Everyone's hair is different. What works for you does not work for everyone.

I also always had a great experience with using Spectrum Natural's Coconut Oil which is under the Beauty section of their website. This coconut oil is specifically made for "use on hair and skin". The label specifically states that, and is not the same pressing as the cooking coconut oil they also sell. But others have declared problems with using oils. I do not oil my scalp hair; I allow sebum to do its job on that portion of my hair. Nature takes care of it for me; I don't need to add more on top building a grease pit.

heidi w.

heidi w.
December 21st, 2011, 12:38 PM
I will be following this thread. I have the same fine slippy hair as the rest of you. I also have hard well water. I wash every day cept for days off work. No condish. And my hair only will work with a pony. I suspect these dog gone layers are the reason for this(that is what I hope).
Using non sls shampoo and evo sometimes before wash.
Trying a couple drops of baby oil on wet hair for the static problems this time of year. See how that works out.

Static: consider using a humidifier during the night while you rest. Use bottled water or distilled water, not tap water, in a humidifier. I learned this trick from Lady Grace who possesses magnificent hair besides being a really wonderful person. This helps in dry winter, snowy months, prevents dry skin, dry throat, prevents cracking skin, and can help prevent nose bleeds from too much air being dry. You may have to run a second one elsewhere in the house.

Hard Water: for those who rent or have limited budgets and can't afford to soften the water coming into the house, you can buy cheap water filters that fit on the arm of the shower head. They screw on easily and are easily removed and you don't have to ask the Landlord for permission, necessarily. Just be sure to change the filter fairly regularly. The harder your water; the more you need to pay attention to changing the filter somewhat regularly. Filters come in a wide price range. I've seen them as low as $20 for a whole unit; and of course, I've seen it far more expensive. If you're unsure of the quality of your water, you can buy from just about any hardware store a pH water test kit and test it yourself according to the included directions.

heidi w.

heidi w.
December 21st, 2011, 12:43 PM
Oh the things I have to look forward to!

ETA: If you feel your face is too severe for a pulled back updo you might find that "loose" or "messy" type updos are more flattering.

Instead of pulling all your hair back from the forehead, consider a side part, and allowing it to swoop a bit to loosen the look. Most people look good in a side part.

heidi w.

heidi w.
December 21st, 2011, 01:00 PM
i have very fine hair, which is thick but can be a pain in the butt! You need more protein, i have found with fine hair as it doesn't have a cortex so is prone to breakage. It also does better with washes every 3 days, so your wetting it less, wet hair= more chance of breakage.

My routine is I oil the very ends every morning lightly and then I put it up. Every 3 days I wash using Inecto coconut moisturising shampoo and conditioner and then once a fortnight I use Mane N tail for protein, every 2 months I use ApHogee 2 step for a heavy duty protein treatment, followed by a DC. I also try and fit a DC in most weeks and I clarify using tresemme deep clean, baking soda makes my hair like straw!

I do wear my hair down around the house but braid it with no elastic for bedtime and I use a satin pillow case, thats it!

Time to educate:

All people have a cortex to the hair, one of the essential that make up a strand of hair. The thing that not all people have is the medulla. This contributes or not to hair strand thickness, a bit.

"In most other human hair types, the medulla is either missing or fragmented."
http://www.forensicscience.org/resources/animal-and-human-hair-evidence/
quoted from #1. about Mongoloid hair, a bit further down in the article.


Now, on to "protein". All shampoos and conditioners from a specific brand, pick any one you want, all contain a "balance" of protein in the product along their product line. You can run into trouble with protein overload (or not enough; symptoms of the problem tend to be the same) when one mixes shampoo and conditioner from different brands or lines of products. OR if you use a leave-in conditioner alongside your shampoo and conditioner, hair can be overloaded. This is problematic at times for all hair types, but often for fine hair types, some manufacturers of leave-in conditioners actually instruct on the bottle to rinse out the leave-in conditioner. The main symptom of protein under- or overload is that hair will begin to suddenly, very suddenly, and a lot, simply break off. I had this happen to me, and this is one reason why we try one thing at a time in longhair care, because then we know what to identify as the culprit that's causing the problem. (If you change too many things at once, it becomes difficult to identify what's causing the problem.). So just be aware. Example, VO5 hot oil application paks have a lot of protein in them. Most people don't seem to read the label very well. Just be aware of what you're doing.

And yes, fine hair needs more washing a bit more frequently. It shows sebum buildup easier than most hair types.

heidi w.

heidi w.
December 21st, 2011, 01:07 PM
What exactly is chelating shampoo and how can I tell if I need it?

I've also been wondering about protein. Maybe I should give it a shot but I don't want to buy new stuff.

There's lots online about what is chelating. FYI, it's not che-lating; it's pronounced Key-lating or key-lation. It's a hard "K" sound for that ch usage. It's a method to get rid of toxins, super diluted in explanation.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/321415-chelates-hair-care/
This is a fairly decent article on chelating and hair care; it explains chelating is often done prior to coloring or perming. Otherwise, you usually only need clarifying.

heidi w.

heidi w.
December 21st, 2011, 01:08 PM
Yes but how would I know if I needed it? Our water is medium hardness but everything weighs my hair down. For the past couple weeks a clarifying wash has helped but the last time I clarified it did nothing for me. I'm wondering if I have some build up that baking soda can't remove and what I should use for that.

What kind of buildup do you have? Do you know what it's from?
heidi w.

jojo
December 21st, 2011, 01:12 PM
Time to educate:

All people have a cortex to the hair, one of the essential that make up a strand of hair. The thing that not all people have is the medulla. This contributes or not to hair strand thickness, a bit.

"In most other human hair types, the medulla is either missing or fragmented."
http://www.forensicscience.org/resources/animal-and-human-hair-evidence/
quoted from #1. about Mongoloid hair, a bit further down in the article.


Now, on to "protein". All shampoos and conditioners from a specific brand, pick any one you want, all contain a "balance" of protein in the product along their product line. You can run into trouble with protein overload (or not enough; symptoms of the problem tend to be the same) when one mixes shampoo and conditioner from different brands or lines of products. OR if you use a leave-in conditioner alongside your shampoo and conditioner, hair can be overloaded. This is problematic at times for all hair types, but often for fine hair types, some manufacturers of leave-in conditioners actually instruct on the bottle to rinse out the leave-in conditioner. The main symptom of protein under- or overload is that hair will begin to suddenly, very suddenly, and a lot, simply break off. I had this happen to me, and this is one reason why we try one thing at a time in longhair care, because then we know what to identify as the culprit that's causing the problem. (If you change too many things at once, it becomes difficult to identify what's causing the problem.). So just be aware. Example, VO5 hot oil application paks have a lot of protein in them. Most people don't seem to read the label very well. Just be aware of what you're doing.

And yes, fine hair needs more washing a bit more frequently. It shows sebum buildup easier than most hair types.

heidi w.

thank you Heidi just seen this which explains why fine hair is more fragile too http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/06/chemistry-of-your-hair-fine-hair.html wish i had at least medium hair!

holothuroidea
December 21st, 2011, 01:32 PM
There's lots online about what is chelating. FYI, it's not che-lating; it's pronounced Key-lating or key-lation. It's a hard "K" sound for that ch usage. It's a method to get rid of toxins, super diluted in explanation.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/321415-chelates-hair-care/
This is a fairly decent article on chelating and hair care; it explains chelating is often done prior to coloring or perming. Otherwise, you usually only need clarifying.

heidi w.

I'm a chemist and I know how to pronounce it, thanks! :laugh:

I know the basic idea is to bind minerals and metals so that it can be washed away. I just don't know if it's right for my hair or what adverse effects it may have. I suppose I won't know that until I try.


What kind of buildup do you have? Do you know what it's from?
heidi w.

If I knew what it was I wouldn't have a problem! lol
I use these things on my hair daily:

Honey and jojoba oil,

Shampoo: Water, coco-Betaine, Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate, Glycerin, Aloe Leaf Juice, Chamomile Extract, Tea Leaf Extract, Echanacea Root Extract, Rose Hip Fruit Oil, Lauryl Glucoside, Stearyl Citrate, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Sulfate, Citric Acid, Benzyl Alcohol, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Benzoate

Conditioner: WATER (AQUA), CETEARYL ALCOHOL, BEHENTRIMONIUM CHLORIDE*, CETYL ESTERS, DAUCUS CAROTA SATIVA (CARROT) JUICE, DAUCUS CAROTA SATIVA (CARROT) SEED OIL, MARIS AQUA (SEA WATER), MARIS LIMUS (SEA SILT) EXTRACT, CHAMOMILLA RECUTITA (MATRICARIA) FLOWER OIL, OLEA EUROPAEA (OLIVE) FRUIT OIL, PRUNUS AMYGDALUS DULCIS (SWEET ALMOND) OIL, CALENDULA OFFICINALIS SEED OIL, CUCURBITA PEPO (PUMPKIN) FRUIT EXTRACT, IPOMOEA BATATAS ROOT LEES EXTRACT, CUCUMIS MELO (MELON) FRUIT EXTRACT, SIMMONDSIA CHINENSIS (JOJOBA) SEED OIL, TRITICUM VULGARE (WHEAT) GERM OIL, CITRUS AURANTIUM DULCIS (ORANGE) FRUIT EXTRACT, HONEY EXTRACT, PUNICA GRANATUM EXTRACT, GUAR HYDROXYPROPYLTRIMONIUM CHLORIDE, FRAGRANCE (PARFUM), SODIUM HYDROXIDE, SODIUM BENZOATE, POTASSIUM SORBATE

Like I said my water is medium-hard and I clarify with a baking soda/vinegar rinse weekly. These are the only things I use on my hair.

:shrug: My hair might just naturally be completely lifeless and limp.

UP Lisa
December 21st, 2011, 01:43 PM
Thank you, Heidi, for answering my question, and for always offering your knowledge and help.

Would love to see a recent length shot of your hair.....

Lilli
December 21st, 2011, 04:39 PM
Like UP Lisa, I know I need to use the chelating shampoo when my hair looks reddish. We do have a whole-house softener, but sometimes we let it run out on accident, and then we have 2 days of very iron-y water while it recharges.

I used to use the Body Shop Rainforest Naturals S&C for moisturizing. It smelled lovely and felt delicious, but gave me major buildup. I went from slippery blonde hair to sticky strawberry hair before I figured out to try the Joico Chelating, and the difference was amazing - I forgot how light my hair really is!

Protein in leave-ins or in excess also is not good for my hair. It gets dry and tangly. However regular clarifying shampoo will fix this, no chelation needed.

I found Heidi W's post on what really long hair requires to be very interesting. I prefer to wear my hair down, and I am not willing to make the sacrifices of truly longer hair, so I decided when I started growing two years ago to stop at BSL. I will be there next year. I used to have BSL hair and know that this will be easy to maintain and look nice when worn down, and it only required a loose braid and some oil at night.

I can use oil, just the lighter ones. My hair prefers argan oil, though camellia is also okay. Coconut is usually too much. I like the look that cones give me (very shiny and heavy) but do not like that they flatten my gentle waves, so I usually avoid them.

Delila
December 21st, 2011, 05:50 PM
... ... things change along the way as you become longer and longer, and thankfully it takes enough time that you have plenty of time to adjust along the way, as needed.
...

This is very true! I'm currently at just past fingertip, and when I started posting here, fingertip seemed like an impossibility, just a pipe dream to aim for.

Since it does take so much time for hair to grow, you do have the chance to figure out how to do things differently, but it is important to keep experimenting and seeking new ways of doing things.

For me, a blog about my hair care has been invaluable. Sure, it makes for a kinda boring read, but it's been a useful reference. It's given me the chance to track what works, what doesn't, how my hair looks when it's finished drying, etc.

It's true that for a long time I was fascinated with all the various haircare methods and products, but over time I figured out that in my own life, a fairly simple routine, with fairly basic products was more than good enough. (i.e., as much as I liked herbal haircare, I find regular shampoo and conditioner a better long term option.)

ktani
December 21st, 2011, 06:28 PM
Two things to try.

1. Mineral oil. It is not greasy and can work well. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=225

2. Another friend of mine tried this and loves it. She has fine hair and you choose the conditioner and oil to use, so you can make it as light as you wish. This is the original recipe and thread.
Fox's Original and Innovative Shea Butter Cream
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=4487

Tips from Fox
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=4487&page=8

http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=4487&page=9

http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=490613&postcount=58

ETA: Coconut oil used in Fox's Shea Butter Cream recipe cannot penetrate hair and prevent protein loss but it can make this a great surface conditioner.

ETA:2 The shea butter and conditioner in the mix will prevent the lauric acid in coconut oil from penetrating the hair.

ETA:3 The key with this recipe is not to use too much or it can be sticky and build-up.

Kamama
December 22nd, 2011, 10:16 AM
Velcro ends aggravate me too! I always clarify when those start showing up. Sometimes it does not solve the problem. Next step for me is to inspect my ends. If I am getting lots of splits, then I either S & D or consider a micro-trim. Fine hair is finicky!

You are not alone in your quest for updos that are not severe. I cannot wear my hair slicked back either, looks terrible.

Someone suggested face-framing layers. I find those are softening and flattering. I think the wispy tendrils flatter most, they can be straight or curly. I have built in curly ones which are always there, but which I carefully "release" after putting my hair up.

I always put some hair around my face in a small barrette or clip to add height. This is also how I wear it when I leave it down. Adds height and keeps it out of my eyes! :)

The rest of the hair pulled into a loose braid or bun then is not so severe for me.

heidi w.
December 22nd, 2011, 10:18 AM
Thank you, Heidi, for answering my question, and for always offering your knowledge and help.

Would love to see a recent length shot of your hair.....

In my album, which I think I set for everyone to see if they want, maybe it's for friends only, I can't keep up, but I do have a full-length shot taken from this past August when I had a hair trim. Let me know if you can't access it. PM me in that case.

heidi w.

heidi w.
December 22nd, 2011, 10:23 AM
I'm a chemist and I know how to pronounce it, thanks! :laugh:

Another chemist on LHC. My mother and father are both chemists; my mother trained as an organic chemist and turned instead to an interest in being a chef. Cooking is a form of chemistry.

Anyway, a lot of readers may not be aware of this chemistry term and its pronunciation. So I just thought that might be helpful, especially if they ever talk with a stylist or a chemist! hee-hee.

We need more chemists on LHC. Glad you're here to add that viewpoint!

heidi w.

heidi w.
December 22nd, 2011, 10:27 AM
I know the basic idea is to bind minerals and metals so that it can be washed away. I just don't know if it's right for my hair or what adverse effects it may have. I suppose I won't know that until I try.
I use these things on my hair daily:

Honey and jojoba oil,



I suspicion that if you've tried clarifying at least two times, and wash as you describe with Baking Soda and a vinegar rinse once a week or so, that then it might be reasonable to advance to chelating and give it a try. Just condition as part of the process.

I wonder about that honey being too viscous perhaps and maybe causing buildup? hmmm.

heidi w.

heidi w.
December 22nd, 2011, 10:29 AM
Two things to try.

1. Mineral oil. It is not greasy and can work well. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=225

2. Another friend of mine tried this and loves it. She has fine hair and you choose the conditioner and oil to use, so you can make it as light as you wish. This is the original recipe and thread.
Fox's Original and Innovative Shea Butter Cream
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=4487

Tips from Fox
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=4487&page=8

http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=4487&page=9

http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=490613&postcount=58

ETA: Coconut oil used in Fox's Shea Butter Cream recipe cannot penetrate hair and prevent protein loss but it can make this a great surface conditioner.

ETA:2 The shea butter and conditioner in the mix will prevent the lauric acid in coconut oil from penetrating the hair.

ETA:3 The key with this recipe is not to use too much or it can be sticky and build-up.

Fox is the webmaster of Long Hair Loom, another long hair care website that's free. It's a great site, and she's a lovely lady. I've spoken with her a handful of times, and she's super nice. Her Shea Butter recipe is one that I can recommend as well. Lots of people use it and like the results. Shea butter is a neat ingredient. People might like Long Hair Loom a lot, and I recommend checking this site out sometimes. Nice people over there.

heidi w.

ktani
December 22nd, 2011, 11:11 AM
Honey can leave a residue I believe is beeswax particles. It is about how the honey is filtered. Shampoo can usually remove it. It has been reported to leave hair "hard" tangly and dry. Sometimes it can be stubborn to remove.

Citric acid chelates metal salts. You can use a diluted lemon juice rinse following your baking soda wash and leave it on the hair for a minute or two before rinsing. Just dilute the lemon juice well. That should cover clarifying and chelating in two simple steps.

holothuroidea
December 22nd, 2011, 11:17 AM
Thanks for all the advice!

I am going to nix the honey. I only used it because I use it on my face and I'm too lazy to mix the right amount and I have leftover so I just use it on my scalp too. I do this because of acne, the honey/oil mix has really helped improve my skin condition and I figured it might help with scalp acne, too.

Anyway, I will try the lemon soak/rinse before I buy chelating shampoo. Can you suggest a dilution? 1:4?
Condition afterwards, correct?

Thank you very much!

ktani
December 22nd, 2011, 11:23 AM
Thanks for all the advice!

I am going to nix the honey. I only used it because I use it on my face and I'm too lazy to mix the right amount and I have leftover so I just use it on my scalp too. I do this because of acne, the honey/oil mix has really helped improve my skin condition and I figured it might help with scalp acne, too.

Anyway, I will try the lemon soak/rinse before I buy chelating shampoo. Can you suggest a dilution? 1:4?
Condition afterwards, correct?

Thank you very much!

You are welcome. Try 1:4. Like a vinegar rinse, what can be drying for one person's hair (barring extremes) may not be for someone else.

There are also citric acid recipes here on the forum but that requires buying it and lemons are cheap, easy to find and you can use leftovers in food and drink, lol.

Lilli
December 22nd, 2011, 01:49 PM
Honey can leave a residue I believe is beeswax particles. It is about how the honey is filtered. Shampoo can usually remove it. It has been reported to leave hair "hard" tangly and dry. Sometimes it can be stubborn to remove.

Citric acid chelates metal salts. You can use a diluted lemon juice rinse following your baking soda wash and leave it on the hair for a minute or two before rinsing. Just dilute the lemon juice well. That should cover clarifying and chelating in two simple steps.

Yes, honey is very bad for my hair - it gets sticky and waxy.

ktani
December 22nd, 2011, 02:06 PM
Yes, honey is very bad for my hair - it gets sticky and waxy.

Not all honeys leave such a residue. However, it is unpredictable. It can happen with raw or pasteurized honey and has done so, from reports.