Do you need sulfates to remove coney buildup from hair?

[blondie9912]

Hi all, just a quick question :) I recently purchased a lovely sulfate free shampoo (it has other surfactcants, however, so it still laters, but doesn't leave my hair parched. Lovely!) along with a fairly coney conditioner. I'm not sure why I bought the conditioner, since I'm not typically a huge fan of cones, but they agree quite well with my hair, so I'm not complaining. I'm wondering, however, if sulfates are needed to remove coney buildup from your hair? Also, will the buildup of cones accumulate on my hair from using a coney condish (Back to Basics Volumizing Apple Ginger), or will I essentially be 'starting fresh' every time I shapoo my hair (with my sulfate-free shampoo)? Thank you all in advance!

[Amber_Maiden]

No, I don't think you need sulfates to remove build-up in hair. I use only sulfate free things entirely. I'm sure someone here, though, knows better than I do.

[lapushka]

I always thought you did need a harsher cleanser to get it all out, but also that you shouldn't need to use it every time.

[ktani]

To remove hair product build-up including cones, you need a stronger usually, basic shampoo that contains no build-up ingredients of its own.

Depending on the amount of build-up on your hair, a sulfate one may be a better choice.

It is not the silicones in a conditioner for example that are the only build-up causing ingredients. Waxes and waxy ingredients and most polymers build-up too.

[FluffSpider]

It depends on the cone.certain cones are water soluble-do you don't need shampoo at all. Others might be tougher and require SLS/SLeS, but I guess if the build-up is really serious you could just lather twice with the lighter shampoo, and that should get the most out. I'd say you're starting on a cleanER slate after each shampooing.not all the cones are out, but honestly...I don't think you WANT all the cones out.

[Sunny_side_up]

I sometimes use sodium bicarb, two teaspoons in a jug of water to do a rinse after showering my hair. Then i'll use my fave shampoo after. Otherwise i use the Treseme vit c build up remover shampoo (Sulfates)

[ktani]

True, not all silicones build-up. The shampoo I use contains one and the shampoo does not build-up.

It is a myth that silicones being in a conditioner means more build-up. All conditioners build-up period. That is what they are designed to do.

[Helenae]

How do you know when you have "coney" build up?

I use cone conditioners (from the ears downwards) but I don't seem to grasp the concept of buildup is meant to feel like, greasy hair? :/

[ktani]

How do you know when you have "coney" build up?

I use cone conditioners (from the ears downwards) but I don't seem to grasp the concept of buildup is meant to feel like, greasy hair? :/

Build-up takes many forms. With silicone the hair can feel more greasy, like with too much oil. In general, build-up can make the hair feel: waxy, tangly, dry and courser, and look, stringy, dull and heavy.

ETA: The hair can also feel sticky or slimey.

[blondie9912]

Thank you so much for the advice, ktani :flowers:

[ktani]

Thank you so much for the advice, ktani :flowers:

You are very welcome.

It depends on the products used as to what form build-up will take.

[blondie9912]

What you said about all conditioners building up is a very good point. Sometimes we get to thinking that silicones are the the devil's spawn of hair products, when in reality they work very well for some people!

[ktani]

What you said about all conditioners building up is a very good point. Sometimes we get to thinking that silicones are the the devil's spawn of hair products, when in reality they work very well for some people!

Exactly! I think the vilifying comes mostly from "natural product" marketing. It is simply not true that silicones only build-up and cause problems in a product. Some silicones do not build-up and it is not that simple to identify those that do not build-up.

I wrote this, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=185 to explain that.

[fridgee]

If you only used cones very occasionally, would using non-SLS over time remove them slowly, or would they stay on there until you next clarified?

I ask because I only use cones if I'm straightening my hair, which I don't do very often, but don't ever use a SLS shampoo afterwards, but I like to oil my hair, which I think I read doesn't work so well on top of cones. I don't really want to have to put my hair through heat AND clarifying if I wear it straight, its seems like a double whammy of drying out. I usually CO, can that remove the cones (even slowly), or not at all?

[Hollyfire3]

If i use mousse every time i wash my hair (every other to every 2 sometimes 3 days) i haved used many coney or thick conditioners in the past and many protein treatments over the summer (that did not work, just made my hair crunchy) and now my hair is dryer, thinner feeling and overall yucky (the mousse no longer makes it look good and it feels too light (in texture) not really wavy anymore and overall like the strands are stuck together and clingy, i know the mousse has protein and polymers. My hair is overall bad right now and has been for months (it only loooks good, thick, curly and beautiful about every 4th wash) do you think this is build up that could be solved with a simple Vo5 tea therapy clarifying shampoo? Sorry i know its off topic a bit but while on the subject of build up, could someone please help me? And also, i always thought you needed sulfates to wash out silocone if the silocone builds up.

[Hollyfire3]

If you only used cones very occasionally, would using non-SLS over time remove them slowly, or would they stay on there until you next clarified?

I ask because I only use cones if I'm straightening my hair, which I don't do very often, but don't ever use a SLS shampoo afterwards, but I like to oil my hair, which I think I read doesn't work so well on top of cones. I don't really want to have to put my hair through heat AND clarifying if I wear it straight, its seems like a double whammy of drying out. I usually CO, can that remove the cones (even slowly), or not at all?


IT really depends on what conditioner you use, if the conditioner is heavy and has proteins, polymers, waxes, silicone, acohol or basically anything, it will build up. I honestly tried CO washing and found it ineffective to remove the simple mousse i use to control my curls (i don't think it has silicone in it at all) so i do not believe that CO washing really removes the silocones you are using, not even slowly. Sorry, just my belief but if you are set on CO washing and do not want to stop using your silicones, you may need to clarify once a month or so. Or better yet, ditch those silicones and wrap your hair while damp, use huge rollers or some other method to heatlessly straighten it. No product buildup from products used while straightening and no straightening=healthier happier hair. Trust me, i have naturally curly, frizzy thick hair that used to poof even WITH my whole cabinet full of silicones (not pretty) I used to straighten the crap out of it and it would not grow because oi had to keep cutting it off. Now, i just let my hair win most of the time, if it curls it curls if it wants to be wavy, then today is a good day, if all else fails, i put is in a braid or ponytail and suffer the headache from all that hair (well recetly it has been less than spectacular so i may be seriously clarifying tonight, hoping it will not mess my color up) Sorry for the long rant, just wanted to give you some been there done that advice.

[Georgies]

My understanding is that the cocamidopropyl betaine in SLS free shampoos removes cone buildup. I think I read this in one of Tonya McKay's articles on naturallycurly.com. She's the "curl chemist" - as a fellow science geek I love her articles!

[fridgee]

My understanding is that the cocamidopropyl betaine in SLS free shampoos removes cone buildup. I think I read this in one of Tonya McKay's articles on naturallycurly.com. She's the "curl chemist" - as a fellow science geek I love her articles!

That's very helpful to know, thank you :)


IT really depends on what conditioner you use, if the conditioner is heavy and has proteins, polymers, waxes, silicone, acohol or basically anything, it will build up. I honestly tried CO washing and found it ineffective to remove the simple mousse i use to control my curls (i don't think it has silicone in it at all) so i do not believe that CO washing really removes the silocones you are using, not even slowly. Sorry, just my belief but if you are set on CO washing and do not want to stop using your silicones, you may need to clarify once a month or so. Or better yet, ditch those silicones and wrap your hair while damp, use huge rollers or some other method to heatlessly straighten it. No product buildup from products used while straightening and no straightening=healthier happier hair. Trust me, i have naturally curly, frizzy thick hair that used to poof even WITH my whole cabinet full of silicones (not pretty) I used to straighten the crap out of it and it would not grow because oi had to keep cutting it off. Now, i just let my hair win most of the time, if it curls it curls if it wants to be wavy, then today is a good day, if all else fails, i put is in a braid or ponytail and suffer the headache from all that hair (well recetly it has been less than spectacular so i may be seriously clarifying tonight, hoping it will not mess my color up) Sorry for the long rant, just wanted to give you some been there done that advice.

Thanks for sharing your experience. :) I really have been embracing my curls and have dropped silicone for normal use but still straighten for special occasions, and I wouldn't want to do that without any heat protection. I haven't tried wrapping yet, I am worried my hair would all end up lying the wrong way, but do need to give it a go one day when it doesn't matter how it looks. I think I'll try using my SLS free shampoo first to see if that works then a deep treatment to make up for the heat, then clarify next wash if after that if it still feels coney.

[Gothchiq]

So in other words, if your hair feels gross, try clarifying to get rid of any buildup. If your hair feels good, then no sweat, you're fine.

[fridgee]

So in other words, if your hair feels gross, try clarifying to get rid of any buildup. If your hair feels good, then no sweat, you're fine.

Clarifying in a nutshell! Love it! :D

[pepperminttea]

I stick to amine-functionalised 'cones (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-amodimethicone-and-other-amine-functionalized-silicones) which resist building up, but this thread (http://www.untamedtresses.com/long-hair-care-2/can-glucosides-remove-silicone-build-up-3143/) might be of interest to you. :)

[ktani]

Dow Corning did some quantifying of silicone deposit on hair in 2006.
http://www.dowcorning.com/content/publishedlit/27-1247.pdf

See Page 4.

In their testing, hair was repeatedly dipped into diluted silicone emulsions and the result was a large excess of silicone on the hair surface. The excess was removed with a conventional clarifying shampoo.

[thelittlestdoc]

My sulfate-free shampoo has always taken whatever I've thrown at it (heavy oils, silicones, parabens, etc). The only time I've had to use a sulfate shampoo is when I had issues with dandruff. Then I used Head & Shoulders twice a month to keep flakes at bay.

[ktani]

It depends on the formulation of whatever has been used on the hair as to how well a shampoo can remove it.

The shampoo I use can remove build-up effectively, but over time, after I have stopped using the product. It did not keep pace with continued application of linden flower tea for example.

A clarifying shampoo is designed to work fast, and a good one can remove all kinds of build-up, not just specific kinds.

That is why clarifying shampoos were developed and most mainstream cosmetic companies have one in their line of products.

ETA: They are designed and formulated because there is need for them, consumer demand, not just to have an extra product available in the product line. Consumers want to enjoy continuous use of products and cosmetic manufacturers want consumers to continue using their products.

ETA:2 If the average shampoo could remove product residue each time it is used, there would be no build-up issues and the number of threads on this formum about product build-up when shampoo is used, not to mention the reviews on makeupalley.com about build-up issues, build-up that can only be removed by a clarifying shampoo or a baking soda solution, or stopping the use of a product in question, exists.

[ktani]

On the subject of water soluble silicones. See this article, http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-amodimethicone-and-other-amine-functionalized-silicones ETA: posted above.

The term water soluble is misleading Once a water soluble silicone is deposited on the hair, it is no long water soluble and needs one of several cleansers to remove it, depending on the emulsion used.

[cmg]

I have read Tonya McKay's articles and I liked them. But as always with the internet, one has to be discriminative with were we collect our information. Two random examples:

"It would be necessary to use a shampoo containing one of the lauryl or laureth sulfates or cocamidopropyl betaine to completely remove this silicone from the hair, which may be of concern to those who prefer to use only conditioner-cleansing methods."

In fact it isn't neccessary at all, in the long run. In time they will dissapear by themselves, given they have not been reapplied. Any method of hairwash will within a couple of uses remove most of them, including resinlike hardened residue. Mechanical rubbing and UV-components in sunlight or artificial light will do the rest to make them go away. Hair sebum is slightly acidic in its composition. The natural hair sebum has the ability to incorporate a lot of these products and thus remove them by shedding it off or being rubbed/scratched off. She sometimes quotes hair product manufacturers, which isnt the most reliable thing to do, searching for unbiased info. They all want to sell something. Now they have discovered the CO-wash niesche. *duh*

We werent born with schampoo in our hairs. Lets not forget that. It is our modern lifestyle that calls for excessive cleaning behaviours. Or do we only think it does?

"People who adhere to a low sulfate or sulfate free shampoo routine often avoid products containing silicones because they are almost always water insoluble (with a few exceptions) "

Again, this is a slight misrepresentation of facts. No silicone is water soluble. They are all hydrofobic polymeres, which means they dont bind to water. They are not water-soluble, they are water-dispersible. The exceptions are of kautschuktype fex, and used for bakeware or babythings, and not of any interest here.

If we want a quick fix, then we need the SLES (and similars), the cocamides, cetrimonium chloride, some or other glucosides - and probably all of them to make sure. :rolleyes: Most of us dont scrutinate the ingredients of our products used way back in our hair history, so probably all of them "had to" be used (not at the same time, this wouldnt work at all) to superclean your hair. But why should we do that? I think we are abit too easily scared. It really isnt neccessary, I think.

End of rant

[cmg]

Oh, just saw the postings by ktani. Didnt read them while I was writing. Have to read them now. :)

[cmg]

Done.

I'm right with you there ktani. But still, we all want a quick fix and the manufacturers thrive on that. It is a matter of choice I guess, if we insist putting something in our hair that later has to be removed. May it be of natural origin or not.

*Longing for a world where everyone has a big frizzball of hair* I would be legio there and go all natural.

[fridgee]

Wow such a lot of interesting information! I never thought I'd learn so much chemistry just trying to have healthy hair! Thanks guys! :)

[ktani]

Done.

I'm right with you there ktani. But still, we all want a quick fix and the manufacturers thrive on that. It is a matter of choice I guess, if we insist putting something in our hair that later has to be removed. May it be of natural origin or not.

*Longing for a world where everyone has a big frizzball of hair* I would be legio there and go all natural.

That is why I was so happy to find catnip tea and find out that it does all I need it to do, and enough of it washes out with each shampoo that I need to use nothing else to remove it.

That is aslo why I suggested a light use of mineral oil for people this time of year. It should also wash out with most shampoos, used very sparingly, and not require clarifying and in spite of false bad press, it does not clog pores, seal the hair from all moisture and is naturally derived. USP or BP mineral oil is pure and safe to use.

I prefer things to be simple.

To go somewhat natural does not mean that you have to have a huge frizzball of hair.

ETA: In spite of the marketing claims, any "all natural shampoo" or "all natural conditioner" contains naturally derived ingredients that require purifying for cosmetic use and for safety. ETA:2 This applies also to any "all natural detangler" or leave in product of any kind that is manufactured or put together. The emulsifying ingredients, usually waxes like cetearyl alcohol or ceteareth-20 for example, are ingredients that are processed.

ETA:3 http://safecosmetics.org/article.php?id=414
"1,4-dioxane is a byproduct of a chemical processing technique called ethoxylation, in which cosmetic ingredients are processed with ethylene oxide. Manufacturers can easily remove the toxic byproduct, but are not required by law to do so. Common ingredients likely to be contaminated with 1,4-dioxane include PEG-100 stearate, sodium laureth sulfate, polyethylene and ceteareth-20."

[ktani]

*Longing for a world where everyone has a big frizzball of hair* I would be legio there and go all natural.

For frizz, you may find an all natural solution that is all natural here, http://ktanihairsense.blogspot.com/2010/08/another-cost-effective-innovation-by.html and requires no clarifying.

The recipe breaks down approximately to 1 tsp per 500 ml of water or just about 16 oz. The original recipe is an estimate.

ETA: Health Canada does an exemplary job with consumer cosmetic product safety here in Canada. I endorse this for the U.S. http://www.safecosmetics.org/article.php?id=695

ETA: 2 I have done so since this, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=15730, see post 2.