Where does the slime come from?

[cmg]

Where does the slime come from in this reciepe?

2 spoonful honey
8 spoonful water
+ an extra dash water
1 spoonful kardamom
1 spoonful cinnamom
some small amount grinded rosemary

After letting it sit for an hour or perhaps 1½ because I forgot to set the time, Í intended to sift it out to get rid of the crumbles before I put it in my hair. It didnt slip thru the tea filter! I discovered it was partially thick like the slime from hommemade flax seed gel! :bigeyes: I wonder which ingredient did this? I'm guessing either the cardamom or the cinnamom, but I have used them alot and this never happened before. I used cleaned utensils, of course. Any guesses as to what happened?

Stil have it in my hair BTW and it smells heavenly :)

[ktani]

Where does the slime come from in this reciepe?

2 spoonful honey
8 spoonful water
+ an extra dash water
1 spoonful kardamom
1 spoonful cinnamom
some small amount grinded rosemary

After letting it sit for an hour or perhaps 1½ because I forgot to set the time, Í intended to sift it out to get rid of the crumbles before I put it in my hair. It didnt slip thru the tea filter! I discovered it was partially thick like the slime from hommemade flax seed gel! :bigeyes: I wonder which ingredient did this? I'm guessing either the cardamom or the cinnamom, but I have used them alot and this never happened before. I used cleaned utensils, of course. Any guesses as to what happened?

Stil have it in my hair BTW and it smells heavenly :)

There is fairly little mucilage in Ceylon cinnamon and more in Cassia cinnamon. Cardamom seeds have mucilage surrounding them.

This has not been reported before. The rosemary reacting with? somehow?

Fascinating!

[cmg]

This was "Swedish standard cinnamon" = Ceylon cinnamon. Perhaps it was the kardamom then. Maybe I do a standalone test with it in the morning.

I just rinsed it and it smells heavenly still!

[ktani]

This was "Swedish standard cinnamon" = Ceylon cinnamon. Perhaps it was the kardamom then. Maybe I do a standalone test with it in the morning.

I just rinsed it and it smells heavenly still!

How have you used in in the past - the cinnamon?

I am very curious now. Your test results should be interesting.

I wish I could be more helpful.

[ktani]

I went back into my research. Elettaria cardamom has 1.8% mucilage,
http://chestofbooks.com/health/materia-medica-drugs/A-Manual-of-Materia-Medica-and-Pharmacology/Elettaria-Cardamomi-Semen-Cardamom-Seed-U-S-P.html

Cassia mucilage
http://botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/c/cassia31.html#con

Ceylon cinnamon does not contain much mucilage from this,
http://www.stuartxchange.org/Canela.html

Linden flower tea which I used to use as a treatment contains 3% mucilage and boiled and cooled showed very little if any distinguishable slime. It did however build-up on my hair with continued use.

I hope this helps.

ETA: See also this http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/usdisp/cinnamomum.html
There is a species that grows in Ceylon and is or was shipped to Europe that yields a lot of mucilage in cold water (just use Control F and type mucilage to get all mention of mucilage).

This matches other references in some Google book references that say the same thing. They (other species) are not the true Ceylon cinnamon though.

Correction: I never boiled linden flower tea. I steeped it in boiled water.

[ktani]

This sounds exactly like your results.

http://chestofbooks.com/health/materia-medica-drugs/Experimental-History-Materia-Medica/Cardamomum-Cardamom.html
"Their virtue is extracted, not only by rectified spirit, but almost completely by water also; with this difference, that the watery infusion is cloudy or turbid, the spirituous clear and trans-parent: the colour of both is a pale yellow. Scarcely any of the aromatic seeds give out so much of their warmth to watery menstrua, or abound so much with gummy matter, which appears to be the principle by which the aromatic part is made dissoluble in water: the infusion is so mucilaginous, even in a dilute state, as hardly to pass through a filter."

[cmg]

Thanks ktani, this was very interesting!

Ill get bak to you later, I was superspammed last night with a couple of thousand emails .. have to sort this out before I do anything else :poot:

[ktani]

Thanks ktani, this was very interesting!

Ill get bak to you later, I was superspammed last night with a couple of thousand emails .. have to sort this out before I do anything else :poot:

You are very welcome. I think it was either the cinnamon or a cardamom you used. There are different kinds of both and names can be tricky. So can vendors selling both.

Good luck with the spam. I have dealt with that in the past too. Not at all fun.

[chou]

Wow, this is really interesting-- both the recipe and the info about the mucilage in cardamom. I love the smell and taste of cardamom but I hadn't thought to put it in my hair before. Is there a particular reason you included it, cmg? I'd love to try it out sometime and I'm glad that I know about the mucilage issue in advance.

[cmg]

Thanks again, ktani.

Chou, I have heard that the peroxide content of kardamom is higher than in cinnamom. Thats why I included it in the reciepe. And I love kardamom too. I use some grinded in my tea all the time. :p Also the green kardamom is wonderful in tea or vanilla puddings!

I bought the kardamom from another supplier than usual and it was very freshly imported. Perhaps this had something to do with it? And the cinnamom was actually some very old package, that I had laying around for years. Found it while cleaning. It still smelled nice so I included it in my hair reciepe instead of throwing it away. I suspect it was the cardamom that made the gel. I will do a small test tonight, let it sit for one hour and let you know what happens.

[cmg]

BTW
The manufacturer of the cinnamom has given some fawlty information about their cinnamon products. I will look into that also and check what I really bought. I believe it is the lighter ceylon cinnamon though they have mislabeled with the wrong latin botanical name (from the darker, stronger kind). I have some other cinnamons at home, for my aquariums also. This is another, verly light colored cinnamom with almost no smell. The etheric oils would kill my shrimp if I use the wrong kind in the tanks. There are also differences if you use bark or other parts.

[ktani]

BTW
The manufacturer of the cinnamom has given some fawlty information about their cinnamon products. I will look into that also and check what I really bought. I believe it is the lighter ceylon cinnamon though they have mislabeled with the wrong latin botanical name (from the darker, stronger kind). I have some other cinnamons at home, for my aquariums also. This is another, verly light colored cinnamom with almost no smell. The etheric oils would kill my shrimp if I use the wrong kind in the tanks. There are also differences if you use bark or other parts.

Yes, that can be a problem. Here in North America, almost all if not all cinnamon is actually cassia cinnamon and it is the cheaper kinds that apparently yield mucilage.

In all of the reports in the Honey thread of letting a recipe stand to develop peroxide using cinnamon or cardamom, no one has reported this kind of problem.
It is something to keep in mind for the future.

I hope you can determine exactly where the problem came from.

[ktani]

The recipes and spice information, minus this latest development are here, http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148

Just look at the links in the first post to be up to date on what is being discussed.

There are more reports at the end of the thread.

[cmg]

I put a small amount of cardamom, the same that I used before, in a glass with approximately the same proportions of water as in the reciepe and let it stand for almost two hours. It had a slight color towards yellowish brownish, and it was slightly slimey! So it was the cardamom then. I will test the cinnamom as well and in combination, and let you know what happens.

I looked at it under the microscope but I couldnt see a clear "demarcation line" of slime around the crumbles. But it couldnt be anything else in the glass so there we have it.

[ktani]

I put a small amount of cardamom, the same that I used before, in a glass with approximately the same proportions of water as in the reciepe and let it stand for almost two hours. It had a slight color towards yellowish brownish, and it was slightly slimey! So it was the cardamom then. I will test the cinnamom as well and in combination, and let you know what happens.

I looked at it under the microscope but I couldnt see a clear "demarcation line" of slime around the crumbles. But it couldnt be anything else in the glass so there we have it.

It looks that way. I am still interested in the cinnamon test if you still plan on it.

So, now it is about just which green cardamom, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom

It gets so complicated with different crops, areas and species.

I never did ask. How did your hair turn out?

[cmg]

Ha ha, I didnt see much difference on my hair. :) It was the second honey treatment and I didnt really expect much difference really. I was going to freshen up with a weak henna/cassia blend afterwards. Which I did. It got a little brighter this way.

I'll check up the cardamom, I suppose it is Elettaria cardamom, but I will verify it for sure and get back.

Some things containing starch can be whipped so they stiffen. We have a national christmas dish where this happenes without cooking. In ktanis first link it says that cardamom contains 3% starch! I remember now that I whipped my first blend quite a lot to get the powders mixed thoroughly with the honey and water. Perhaps this made a difference in producing the gel? I didnt get it very thick in the test run, where I didnt whip it. It was a noticeable difference from plain water though.

Imagine all the things you have to consider that could make a difference in outcome :rolleyes:

[ktani]

Ha ha, I didnt see much difference on my hair. :) It was the second honey treatment and I didnt really expect much difference really. I was going to freshen up with a weak henna/cassia blend afterwards. Which I did. It got a little brighter this way.

I'll check up the cardamom, I suppose it is Elettaria cardamom, but I will verify it for sure and get back.

Some things containing starch can be whipped so they stiffen. We have a national christmas dish where this happenes without cooking. In ktanis first link it says that cardamom contains 3% starch! I remember now that I whipped my first blend quite a lot to get the powders mixed thoroughly with the honey and water. Perhaps this made a difference in producing the gel? I didnt get it very thick in the test run, where I didnt whip it. It was a noticeable difference from plain water though.

Imagine all the things you have to consider that could make a difference in outcome :rolleyes:

I never thought about the starch. In the Honey thread reports what I remember is that cardamom washed out of the hair more easily than cinnamon grains. The filtering came later.

Gooey or mucilage never came up. I definitely would remember that.

I did post about the starch, resin and mucilage of cinnamon in reply to a post on cinnamon leaving a weird feeling on the hair in the cinnamon thread.

Go figure, lol.

I have no idea how this may have affected lightening. I will have to ponder that too.

[ktani]

When I was recording posts, I listed the recipes too. In this post, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1 where everything is if you click on the various Picture Posts you find who used what.

Most people preferred cinnamon although there are cardamom posts as well, no mention of slime or goo.

If you try again with no goo and get lightening, with the same recipe and honey and you rinse the seeds maybe the results will be different or try a different cardamom.

While I was researching to help with this, the seeds are washed or rinsed to remove mucilage before planting.

[cmg]

Hmm, interesting.

Check this out:
On Gernot Katzers spice pages (university of Graz) he mentions 3% starch in cinnamon (same as in kardamom) and 11% in the cassia.
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Elet_car.html
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Cinn_zey.html

[VikingVampChick]

I've tried the honey lightening & cinnamon/conditioner lightening - slime with both mixes. Tried passing the honey mix through a strainer the 2nd time (can't remember why at the moment) - no way it was going through.

[cmg]

You got slime also in the mix with conditioner? That was interesting.

I now have more test results! Last test was not replicating the reciepe very well, but this time I did that better.

1. 1 teaspoon kardamom with 8 teaspoons of water.
2. 1 teaspoon cinnamon with 8 teaspoons of water.
*one teaspoon=5 ml*

Both whipped for more than one minute.
Both placed in a warm place, 20-23 degrees Celsius.
Both stirred around twice after ca twenty minutes
Both sitting for one additional hour and then checked for changes.

Results are:

1. Slight coloration towards yellowish-brown, a cool shade, of the water. Some portion of weak slime on the bottom of the glass.
2. Visible foaming while whipping. Slight coloration towards "henna dye release-colour", a warm colour, of the water. The whole portion became slimish, concentrating thicker on the bottom half!

Conclusions:

Both the kardamom and the cinnamom contributed to the slime build up. Whipping contributes also, and the cinnamom produced the greater amount of the slime.

Notes:
The cardamom vas very fresh, imported this summer. The cinnamon was very outdated. I estimate the package being bought around 2003. Best last date was 2006. This test was done with the same brands I used in my original reciepe. I will reproduce the same test with other brands. I have alot of stuff at home. :)

*No animals or people harmed during the test, and no waste produced* I put the results in my big teapot :D Cant waste food of any kind.

[ktani]

Well done!

I do not believe anyone has whipped a recipe usually.

3 observations from having over time read every report in the Honey thread with spices, successful and unsuccessful

1. cinnamon grains were reported to be difficult to wash out of hair

2. powdered cardamom was reported to be more easily washed out of hair than powdered cinnamon

3. While slime has not been previously reported except here in this thread and now there are 2 reports, if it was not noticed, and was there it did not interfere with results.

There are multiple successful honey lightening reports with both spices and that is from the first ones onward.

I do not think the age of the cinnamon is as relevant as the species, based on the research. The cheaper species yield the most mucilage which I believe is what the slime is more than the starch.

[VikingVampChick]

With the conditioner, the slime wasn't noticeable until I went to rinse it out. It was like my hair was in a slime case :p

[ktani]

I think the whole thing is fascinating. I had no idea a difference in species of cinnamon could yield such results, unknown to most people, including me, until I researched it.

The same no doubt applies to cardamom.

[cmg]

With the conditioner, the slime wasn't noticeable until I went to rinse it out. It was like my hair was in a slime case :p
Thats very interesting as it somehow confirms the fact that the slime buildup doesnt stop after one hour. I let my tests stand for three additional hours and there was definitively more slime buildup in both portions! More noticeable in the cardamom, because there was less of it from the beginning. I took some photos, I will try to see if they came out showing something. Im not friends with the digital technique yet :cool:

[cmg]

I think the whole thing is fascinating. I had no idea a difference in species of cinnamon could yield such results, unknown to most people, including me, until I researched it.

The same no doubt applies to cardamom.
Theres a first time for everything.
*Sending a glare towards the aniseeds, cloves etc in my cupboard* I think I have to take a vacation and do some extensive testing :D

[cmg]

2. powdered cardamom was reported to be more easily washed out of hair than powdered cinnamon
OT

When it comes to washing out of hair, my most gruesome experience was with chick peas from the food store. I read here on LHC about washing HAIR with that flour and did it - which I regretted immediately as I started to wash it out. WOOOAH it was horrible. Hair felt nice though, but the process of getting rid of the grains ..... OMFG

And stupidly enough, I had to go ahead and do it again! :brickwall

Next time I will try grind it myself first and then sift it thoroughly. Or find a different brand and make pancaces of the stuff I have left.



I do not think the age of the cinnamon is as relevant as the species, based on the research.
I dont think so either, I just thought I should mention every aspect of the test in case of someone trying the same thing getting different results.


The cheaper species yield the most mucilage which I believe is what the slime is more than the starch.
Ehum, why? That IS the slime. The slimey stuff are carbohydrates of which the water soluble ones are called polysaccarides. Mono-, di- and trisaccarides are types of starch that occur in plants (though usually not used in medicine or cooking). The poly-saccaride "cellulose" is the predominant one in the cell walls of plant cells. These slimes produced from medical herbs or spices most often go damaged after cooking, so they are used predominatly as cold water extracts for medicinal purposes for example. Some starches, for example from potatoes or corn, function still after cooking some but not too long. Cook them too long and they dissolve again in water. Potato starch and arrow root are nearly 100% starch that thickens in water. The plant starches are a large form of storage-molecules for excess amounts of energy. That is why it occurs in both plant stems and seeds for example. The starch can consist of molecules that are configured straight (amylose) or branched (amylopectines). The starch kan be broken down to smaller units again (my whipping for example! or with the help of enzymes) into glucose. Other types of thickeners are for example Algin acid (= E 400) which is also a poly-saccarid. I hope I got this fairly right in english language, I'm a medical chemist but not used to write that stuff in understandable english words. And if you didn't want to know all this, please forgive my ranting. It's work damage :D

[ktani]

OT

When it comes to washing out of hair, my most gruesome experience was with chick peas from the food store. I read here on LHC about washing HAIR with that flour and did it - which I regretted immediately as I started to wash it out. WOOOAH it was horrible. Hair felt nice though, but the process of getting rid of the grains ..... OMFG

And stupidly enough, I had to go ahead and do it again! :brickwall

Next time I will try grind it myself first and then sift it thoroughly. Or find a different brand and make pancaces of the stuff I have left.

You had me tearing with laughter at this. Sounds like something I would do and have done when experimenting with linden tea and chamomile tea.

I dont think so either, I just thought I should mention every aspect of the test in case of someone trying the same thing getting different results.

You and I are "on the same page then" on this.

Ehum, why? That IS the slime. The slimey stuff are carbohydrates of which the water soluble ones are called polysaccarides. Mono-, di- and trisaccarides are types of starch that occur in plants (though usually not used in medicine or cooking). The poly-saccaride "cellulose" is the predominant one in the cell walls of plant cells. These slimes produced from medical herbs or spices most often go damaged after cooking, so they are used predominatly as cold water extracts for medicinal purposes for example. Some starches, for example from potatoes or corn, function still after cooking some but not too long. Cook them too long and they dissolve again in water. Potato starch and arrow root are nearly 100% starch that thickens in water. The plant starches are a large form of storage-molecules for excess amounts of energy. That is why it occurs in both plant stems and seeds for example. The starch can consist of molecules that are configured straight (amylose) or branched (amylopectines). The starch kan be broken down to smaller units again (my whipping for example! or with the help of enzymes) into glucose. Other types of thickeners are for example Algin acid (= E 400) which is also a poly-saccarid. I hope I got this fairly right in english language, I'm a medical chemist but not used to write that stuff in understandable english words. And if you didn't want to know all this, please forgive my ranting. It's work damage :D

Are you kidding? I love this kind of thing and am grateful for your knowledge.

I was going by the texture to me in a different way. Yes, they are both polysaccharides and they both build-up on hair and can cause issues.

I will try to explain it more in results. The polysaccharides in German chamomile coated my hair and left it feeling dry when they built-up. They are not a starch but technically may be. I did not research that further. Polysaccharides are listed as a German chamomile constituent.

Linden tea contains mucilage. Different feeling on hair, smooth but can be sticky. It is like a glue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucilage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucilage)

They are close though, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch)

Mucilage does not stiffen hair in the quantity contained in linden tea. In flax seeds or fenugreek it would and is used as a gel.

[cmg]

Oh yes, they are quite different types and effects and textures. You are absolutely right about that.

And don't get me going about chamomille and linden tea experiments :run:
I'm currently working out a honeybush-experiment.

[ktani]

Oh yes, they are quite different types and effects and textures. You are absolutely right about that.

And don't get me going about chamomille and linden tea experiments :run:
I'm currently working out a honeybush-experiment.

Put them down and walk away slowly, lol.

German chamomile tea left me with split ends and breakage from root to tip on my hair.

Linden tea gave me more waves and almost curls but terrible breakage and a "no grow" nape area breakage on one side of my hair.

My hair at the nape and elsewhere finally all grew in using catnip only.

Both chamomile and linden tea had to be scraped off my bathtub ceramic.

I once spent 3 hours scraping linden tea build-up off an area of porcelin.

Linden tea I thought ruined my white/grey shower curtain. It eventually over 3 years or so washed out. I cannot bleach the shower curtain but I also bought a new washing machine which cleans more efficiently.

I tried scubbing the curtain, hand washing the area and finally gave up. It did wash out, s l o w l y. It took a long time (I do not clarify) to wash out of my hair after stopping use of it.

[ktani]

I have not seen this before and it should, hopefully be of interest to you, ftp://111.68.111.206/Iccbs%20E-Books/PLANT/Medicinal%20and%20Aromatic%20Plants-Industrial%20Profiles/Chamomile-%20Industrial%20Profiles/TF4015_Ch04.pdf

So, there is a quantity of mucilage in chamomile but it does not "feel" that way on hair, compared to the feeling of linden tea.

ETA: This is German Chamomile

And this http://www.springerlink.com/content/gw311427307v868w/

I know realistically that there are polysaccharides, probably mucilage among them and possibly resin in Nepeta cataria or catnip. However, I made it simple for myself. When I went through constituents of plants, the main active consituents are usually listed in the short versions. The long versions list all of the many phytochemicals. I found that the short versions, depending on the source, corresponded to my experiments.

What I was looking for and eventually found, was a plant, catnip, that could colour my hair (bonus) while conditioning it (no split ends a super extra bonus) and more importantly not require claryfying which I understand but did not want to go through (the stripping of coatings, reapplying them, having them build-up and starting over with stripping).

Enough catnip washes out with each shampoo, that I do not have the breakage or split end problems I once had.

No matter what or what kind of conditioner I used because they all build-up and are designed to do that, I was looking for an alternative, especially after becoming sensitive to an ingredient that is now in many of them.

[cmg]

I have not seen this before and it should, hopefully be of interest to you, ftp://111.68.111.206/Iccbs%20E-Books/PLANT/Medicinal%20and%20Aromatic%20Plants-Industrial%20Profiles/Chamomile-%20Industrial%20Profiles/TF4015_Ch04.pdf

So, there is a quantity of mucilage in chamomile but it does not "feel" that way on hair, compared to the feeling of linden tea.
Interesting link. I didnt read all of it, but my other sources say that Matricaria chamomilla contain up to 10% mucus in the flowers.


I know realistically that there are polysaccharides, probably mucilage among them and possibly resin in Nepeta cataria or catnip. However, I made it simple for myself. When I went through constituents of plants, the main active consituents are usually listed in the short versions. The long versions list all of the many phytochemicals. I found that the short versions, depending on the source, corresponded to my experiments.

What I was looking for and eventually found, was a plant, catnip, that could colour my hair (bonus) while conditioning it (no split ends a super extra bonus) and more importantly not require claryfying which I understand but did not want to go through (the stripping of coatings, reapplying them, having them build-up and starting over with stripping).

Enough catnip washes out with each shampoo, that I do not have the breakage or split end problems I once had.

No matter what or what kind of conditioner I used because they all build-up and are designed to do that, I was looking for an alternative, especially after becoming sensitive to an ingredient that is now in many of them.I've been meaning to try catnip myself, both in hair and for other purposes. It actually grows in small quantities around my house, but the plant is on the Swedish A-list. :cool: I have to get it in pet shops, but it seems not so fresh this way. I think we should start a thread about catnip, dosages and reciepes.

According to several relevant sources, there is an eteric oil in catnip, containing carvacrol, tymol, nepetalakton and nepeta acid. Thoose would be the interesting components. They are more or less available in all parts of the plant, but mostly the leafs are used and have been used in plant medicine since the middle ages. Interesting is also that they contain kampher, beta karotene, geraniol, thymol and some minerals. I have one (not so good) source stating it has a C-vitamine content also. The plant is probably not indigenous here in Sweden, but it has been spreading naturally since around the 1600s

[ktani]

I think we should start a thread about catnip, dosages and reciepes.

Here is the catnip thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=476 and my article is linked in the first post of mine.

It is wonderful dried from the pet store although some prefer it fresh. I have only used dried but with fantastic results, in over 6 years.

ETA: I found this to be very interesting, http://www.pharmpress.com/shop/samples/Eval_Herb_Med_Prod_sample.pdf.

In other research I read, starch and cellulose are "complexed" by tannins.

Catnip has never produced slime for me. At longer steeping times it does release more of what I can only describe as a particulate. Whatever it actually is I prefer a specific steeping time now for the best results.

I also found this of interest on the constituents of catnip, http://www.liberherbarum.com/pn0450.HTM

There are about 250 species of catnip and the constituents in amounts vary with the species, http://www.cat-world.com.au/all-about-catnip.

[cmg]

Yeah, I knew there was something here about catnip already :)
I havent mastered to read the entire thread yet.


ETA: I found this to be very interesting, http://www.pharmpress.com/shop/samples/Eval_Herb_Med_Prod_sample.pdf.
An orientation about clinical acticity of substances in herbs. Everyone should read something like this before mixing plant stuffs, were it not for the rather "clinical" language. Might not suit everyone.


In other research I read, starch and cellulose are "complexed" by tannins.Yes tannines can be used to extract (filter out) starch, glucosides, proteins and other things out of water solutions. I suspect however, the effect is negligeable when it comes to hair washes and such. They might even go into solution again because of other ingredients in the rinse or treatment. And also, there might be other substances accessible in the catnip rinse, with greater affinity. Iron iones from the tap water for example. I'm just speculating, I dont know for sure which process will dominate in practical use. The presence of tannines however, indicate strong possibility of great uses for skin care. Antique examples: Cream for sore nipples, mouth water. Here the tannines mostly derive from oak bark or red insect bulbs like this (see picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynips). Rape seed also contains tannines, this can account for some of the beneficial external effects. I mix some detergents with rape seed, they are nice to the skin. Taken internally tannines are often counterindicated though because they can cause mineral deficit (because they bind to the minerals).


Catnip has never produced slime for me. At longer steeping times it does release more of what I can only describe as a particulate. Whatever it actually is I prefer a specific steeping time now for the best results.

I also found this of interest on the constituents of catnip, http://www.liberherbarum.com/pn0450.HTMInteresting list. (I love your links, dont take this as criticism) But one has to be aware of the type of source one is using for information. This is a litterature reference list made up by a commercial plant seller, not a list of scientific findings. The fact that some substance has been mentioned in one or two books, does not qualify the info as a scientific fact. I checked, and many of the listed books are not 100% correct. Not to mention for the fact that some of them are translations into other languages. Many plants are known to be mislabeled by herbalists or other amateur writers, and then translations add to the confusion.
*Besserwissermodus off*

[cmg]

There are about 250 species of catnip and the constituents in amounts vary with the species, http://www.cat-world.com.au/all-about-catnip.*Besserwissermodus back on*
I would have to disagree on many "facts" presented on that page. For example there is only one Catnip, that is Nepeta cataria. The other plants, thought botanically related, are not Catnip. Many of the family Nepeta are popularly called catnip, but there is only one true such. Also the (latin) name Nepeta has been misused, both online and in less discriminative litterature and folklore. Another misinformation on this page is that catnip is harmless to cats. That is not so. For example there are documented cases of kittens with remaining nevrological damage after coming into contact with catnip. Also there is danger for drivers after drinking tea or breathing in destillates of the essential oils. The level of awareness is impared after this. And then there are substances in catnip like coumarin for example. Just because they are used and very popular in traditional cooking and in drinks, they are NOT HARMLESS!

Nothing from nature is truly harmless. If there is an effect, then there is potential harm as well. Many of the substances we are interested in, are designed by the plant as chemical warfare. For example "pine tree smell" is an insect repellant. It kills caterpillars (who in turn have developed anti-weapons). Substances exist in plants, that combat other plants nearby or kills algae in the water etc. Other substances are designed so the plant will not be eaten or as UV-filter and so on. And these are the type of stuffs that we use in our health care. :eyebrows:

Cure or kill depends on the use and preparation, among other things. I have the greatest respect for practical findings though, and more often than not they can be confirmed and explained scientifically afterwards. The old midwiwes etc, they really knew stuff!

Slime, besides being a storage for energy, is a typical defence against being eaten. It is often combined with bitter tasting substances. Seeds, when wet, expand because of the swelling of the slime. Being left alone by potential hungry animals (they have to cross the slime and cannot find the goodies) it bursts and germinates. The slime contains energy that then will be absorbed by the sprout.

OK I'll stop ranting now. I'm a closet herbalist
PS
Youre mislabeled! I think you are a catnip geek :D

[ktani]

Yeah, I knew there was something here about catnip already :)
I havent mastered to read the entire thread yet.


An orientation about clinical acticity of substances in herbs. Everyone should read something like this before mixing plant stuffs, were it not for the rather "clinical" language. Might not suit everyone.

Yes tannines can be used to extract (filter out) starch, glucosides, proteins and other things out of water solutions. I suspect however, the effect is negligeable when it comes to hair washes and such. They might even go into solution again because of other ingredients in the rinse or treatment. And also, there might be other substances accessible in the catnip rinse, with greater affinity. Iron iones from the tap water for example. I'm just speculating, I dont know for sure which process will dominate in practical use. The presence of tannines however, indicate strong possibility of great uses for skin care. Antique examples: Cream for sore nipples, mouth water. Here the tannines mostly derive from oak bark or red insect bulbs like this (see picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynips). Rape seed also contains tannines, this can account for some of the beneficial external effects. I mix some detergents with rape seed, they are nice to the skin. Taken internally tannines are often counterindicated though because they can cause mineral deficit (because they bind to the minerals).

Interesting list. (I love your links, dont take this as criticism) But one has to be aware of the type of source one is using for information. This is a litterature reference list made up by a commercial plant seller, not a list of scientific findings. The fact that some substance has been mentioned in one or two books, does not qualify the info as a scientific fact. I checked, and many of the listed books are not 100% correct. Not to mention for the fact that some of them are translations into other languages. Many plants are known to be mislabeled by herbalists or other amateur writers, and then translations add to the confusion.
*Besserwissermodus off*

Very true and I do not take that as a criticism in the least. The difficulty I have had is finding one list of as many or all of the phytochemicals in Nepeta cataria. Part of that problem is that as far I know so far, not all of them have been identified.

[cmg]

I have three german pharmacology books where each of them state some substances. I will check if they are available online, but I doubt it.

[cmg]

In the mean time, I've got a link for you to suck your teeth in: Look under "Chemistry", there are actual scientific sources given!
http://www.drugs.com/npp/catnip.html

[ktani]

I have three german pharmacology books where each of them state some substances. I will check if they are available online, but I doubt it.

Thank you. I have several reputable links with some of the substances too. The thing is I could not find one reputable link with all the most up to date substances in one complete list, lol.

[ktani]

In the mean time, I've got a link for you to suck your teeth in: Look under "Chemistry", there are actual scientific sources given!
http://www.drugs.com/npp/catnip.html

I actually have this link and ones like this, http://www.jofamericanscience.org/journals/am-sci/am0610/42_3328am0610_364_386.pdf

And this, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378874108006260

I can sink my teeth into them although it can be tough going to string constituents all together from a study or studies which look at one particlar activity or just the essential oil.

ETA: Catnip oil is still being studied for new applications, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2915.2011.00972.x/abstract

More catnip research, http://www.sciencepub.net/newyork/ny0408/022_6706ny0408_129_135.pdf

[ktani]

At the end of the day, while the current research says catnip may be antifungal, antiviral and antibacterial, and there is a percentage of lauric acid in Nepeta cataria (no where near the amount found in coconut oil), my main concerns have been resolved.

1. It is safe to use with cautions, http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/prodnatur/applications/licen-prod/monograph/mono_catnip-cataire-eng.php

and http://www.noahsnaturalfoods.ca/ns/DisplayMonograph.asp?storeID=25253C03182E4524ACDDB 4F565E2742F&DocID=catnip#SAFETY

So far I have not hallucinated, lol.

2. It works for me

However, if there is any future scientific evidence that it is harmful, I will stop using it.

ETA: I will for accuracy, amend my article to reflect may be before antibacterial, antiviral and antifungal although the latest research supports some of that for certain applications.

I had read that it was generally recognized as safe but it is not apparantly on the FDA GRAS list.

If it is shown in legitimate research to be harmful, I will post that, and depending on what is stated, not only stop using it but also caution against its use.

Toxicity of the oil alone is excellent here, http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1401&context=usdaarsfacpub&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt% 26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dnepeta%2520cataria%2520safety%26so urce%3Dweb%26cd%3D6%26ved%3D0CE0QFjAF%26url%3Dhttp %253A%252F%252Fdigitalcommons.unl.edu%252Fcgi%252F viewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1401%2526context%2 53Dusdaarsfacpub%26ei%3DYv6xTtuMEOHc0QGuzpnQDA%26u sg%3DAFQjCNEjg2VC2ne04aYKtj0VKu1ced6oPg%26sig2%3DI 8lxyCmEzEs1ZBWwQvnM8w#search=%22nepeta%20cataria%2 0safety%22

EPA action document
http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/biopesticides/ingredients/tech_docs/brad_004801.pdf

[cmg]

Toxicity of the oil alone is excellent here, http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1401&context=usdaarsfacpub&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt% 26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dnepeta%2520cataria%2520safety%26so urce%3Dweb%26cd%3D6%26ved%3D0CE0QFjAF%26url%3Dhttp %253A%252F%252Fdigitalcommons.unl.edu%252Fcgi%252F viewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1401%2526context%2 53Dusdaarsfacpub%26ei%3DYv6xTtuMEOHc0QGuzpnQDA%26u sg%3DAFQjCNEjg2VC2ne04aYKtj0VKu1ced6oPg%26sig2%3DI 8lxyCmEzEs1ZBWwQvnM8w#search=%22nepeta%20cataria%2 0safety%22

It was not tested there according to requirements for things you use in health care or cosmetics, it was tested according to standards used for chemicals, as in insect repellants. Anyhow, international research doesnt always agree and noone can tell you what you should put in your hair. Thats your business. I will try it for sure. I usually like things with coumarines in them. They smell so nice :whistle:

Back to topic: I have found some slime in cloves and star aniseeds now too. I'm wondering if that impaires the effect of henna somehow? And if so, does it matter? There is plenty of dye in a henna mud pack.

[ktani]

It was not tested there according to requirements for things you use in health care or cosmetics, it was tested according to standards used for chemicals, as in insect repellants. Anyhow, international research doesnt always agree and noone can tell you what you should put in your hair. Thats your business. I will try it for sure. I usually like things with coumarines in them. They smell so nice :whistle:

Back to topic: I have found some slime in cloves and star aniseeds now too. I'm wondering if that impaires the effect of henna somehow? And if so, does it matter? There is plenty of dye in a henna mud pack.

That testing was also done to evaluate it for humans, which is why I posted it.
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1401&context=usdaarsfacpub&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt% 26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dnepeta%2520cataria%2520safety%26so urce%3Dweb%26cd%3D6%26ved%3D0CE0QFjAF%26url%3Dhttp %253A%252F%252Fdigitalcommons.unl.edu%252Fcgi%252F viewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1401%2526context%2 53Dusdaarsfacpub%26ei%3DYv6xTtuMEOHc0QGuzpnQDA%26u sg%3DAFQjCNEjg2VC2ne04aYKtj0VKu1ced6oPg%26sig2%3DI 8lxyCmEzEs1ZBWwQvnM8w#search=%22nepeta%20cataria%2 0safety%22
"Furthermore, the study also aimed to evaluate the safety profile of catnip oil as a repellent before designating it as a safe alternative repellent against biting insects for practical application on humans and animals. ... More extensive animal toxicology studies in conjunction with human clinical studies will need to be performed to establish the safety of catnip oil in humans and other animals before it can be fully accepted for use in personal and animal protection against biting insects."

ETA: It is about its safety for dermal or topical use, which while an insect repellant is not exactly a "cosmetic" is the same issue regarding safety. Sorry if that is repetitive given the quote - early in the morning, lol.

Going by the cinnamon and cardamom results in honey lightening to date, I doubt it makes a difference, going on the assumption that those who had successful results also had slime, unless the quantity of the slime is an issue.

Just had coffee. Some people prefer to clarify before henna for the best dye uptake. If there is a huge amount of slime, in addition to the mucilage and resin already present in henna - possibly. Your tests should help determine that.

[cmg]

I'm not sure it will. There is definitely both mucilage and resin in henna, or should I say the prepared henna paste, but I dont know how to determine any effects on the stain without extensive testing series. And there is another thing I've been wondering about. I have had a pause in hennaing for about some 15 years. I still have henna packages from that time left over, and I have used them lately. The thing is, I seriously dont recall from back then, that it was slimey! Today when I prepare a henna treatment, they all appear to be slimey. Either I remember it wrong, or there is something else going on. Must be something wrong with my memory. Thats so weird. :disgust:

[ktani]

I'm not sure it will. There is definitely both mucilage and resin in henna, or should I say the prepared henna paste, but I dont know how to determine any effects on the stain without extensive testing series. And there is another thing I've been wondering about. I have had a pause in hennaing for about some 15 years. I still have henna packages from that time left over, and I have used them lately. The thing is, I seriously dont recall from back then, that it was slimey! Today when I prepare a henna treatment, they all appear to be slimey. Either I remember it wrong, or there is something else going on. Must be something wrong with my memory. Thats so weird. :disgust:

Both mucilage and resin are in the plant itself. ETA the leaves

And do you have a link to a source listing coumarins in Nepeta cataria L.? The links I have do not list it.

[ktani]

Coumarins are found in henna. HennaSooq first posted that here a while back and there are several research study links online that support it.

ETA: I have not seen one reference to catnip being dangerous to cats or kittens anywhere online written by Doctors of Veterinary Medicine responding to questions about that or authoring an article on it. Do you have a link to the documented cases of kitten "neurological damage" from catnip you posted about earlier?

[cmg]

Adding some pictures of the mucilage forming (sorry about the quality). The first picture shows kardamom. The dark part in the glass is the tiny amount of kardamom powder swelling up to this much. The water portion above shows some discoloration.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=9140&pictureid=119204

The next picture shows the cinnamon. The dark part in the glass is the tiny amount of cinnamon powder swelling up to this much - a much greater swelling than of the kardamom! The water portion above shows some discoloration also.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=9140&pictureid=119205

The same amount of powder and water was used in the two samples, so they are possible to compare.