The perm drama... again

[Liss]

I have no idea what is wrong with me. After last year's fiasco I thought I had it completely out of my system. But no... I'm still intent on completely ruining my hair with a perm.

My new theory is that last year it didn't work because my hair was in excellent condition, but this year it just might hold because my hair is bleached, fried and generally a mess.

I am a little concerned that it might all break off... but there is some madness inside my head that is trying to force me to do it anyway.

I've done a lot more than the 2 week wait already, so please, either try to talk some sense into me, or encourage me to listen to my own madness & just go for it.

[lilalong]

How long is your hair now? Are you prepared to cut if the perm turns your hair into a mess?

[Aeltt]

Think about the straight roots you'll have with the curly hair.
Think about all the length the curls will eat (and you'll probably need a trim too to get ride of the damage).
Think about taking care of curly hair. It is a bother, really. Just hide your brushes and be prepared to using way more conditioner so it's not just puffy.
And think about taking care of damaged curly hair : even worse ! Especially if your straight hair is already a mess. You'll probably have frizzy hair everywhere. If you like the 80's look go for it, but it's hard to have defined curls on damaged hair (ask me how i know, and my curls are nowhere as tight as permed ladies).

If you still want to do it, please find a good hairdresser who will give you advices and tell you if you can do it without frying your hair.

[PinkyCat]

Maybe reassess WHY you want a perm so bad? Maybe there are much safer alternatives - like sleeping in pin curls instead and waking up to healthier ringlets.

[PinkyCat]

Think about the straight roots you'll have with the curly hair.
Think about all the length the curls will eat (and you'll probably need a trim too to get ride of the damage).
Think about taking care of curly hair. It is a bother, really. Just hide your brushes and be prepared to using way more conditioner so it's not just puffy.
And think about taking care of damaged curly hair : even worse ! Especially if your straight hair is already a mess. You'll probably have frizzy hair everywhere. If you like the 80's look go for it, but it's hard to have defined curls on damaged hair (ask me how i know, and my curls are nowhere as tight as permed ladies).

If you still want to do it, please find a good hairdresser who will give you advices and tell you if you can do it without frying your hair.

THIS THIS THIS!!!

[Lollipop]

It's much easier to curl your hair without heat than to straighten it. With straight hair, you have a blank canvas to experiment with loads of different curls. I mean, there are sock bun curls, cinnabun curls, bandana curls, pin curls, rag curls, and of course the famous Caruso rollers! You can experiment with different levels of tightness by doing smaller sections and you can probably get away with using something with a light hold like aloe.

Many curlies have fought with their hair for their entire lives, and it could take years to figure out just the right way to handle them with proper products. It can be very unpredictable and far trickier to handle than straight hair. Even if you're a curly at heart, and you are prepared to face the mane, I would especially not recommenda perm on damaged hair. Aside from the fact that a perm will damage it more (duh), dealing with frizz and getting your hair to clump in a non-80s looking way will bean even greater challenge. It will probably take extra care and styling. I would not recpmmend a perm to anyone who doesn't have a friend or family memberwith curly hair that they have seen in various stages of frizz and expansion.


Oh, and have you checked out the thread where curlies brush their hair? Do you think you're prepared for that. If you decide to go for it, remember the curlies at LHC will be here to help :).

[vanillabones]

Go for it if you're willing to sacrifice your hair or even lose most of your hair and be partially bald. I took that risk when I decided to bleach my hair white and add extensions. My hairdresser was relieved I didn't go bald. I took that risk and nobody could talk me out of it. Maybe nobody can talk you out of this. Maybe thinking about how many years it will take to grow out and have healthy virgin long hair will make you not want to do it. Seriously it will take a good 2-3 years to even have it back again to shoulder length. But if healthy long virgin hair does not seem like one of the goals in your future / near future then go for it :o

[ktani]

I have no idea what is wrong with me. After last year's fiasco I thought I had it completely out of my system. But no... I'm still intent on completely ruining my hair with a perm.

My new theory is that last year it didn't work because my hair was in excellent condition, but this year it just might hold because my hair is bleached, fried and generally a mess.

I am a little concerned that it might all break off... but there is some madness inside my head that is trying to force me to do it anyway.

I've done a lot more than the 2 week wait already, so please, either try to talk some sense into me, or encourage me to listen to my own madness & just go for it.

One way to end your dilemma would be to seek out a good stylist, have a consultation and see what she or he recommends.

A good stylist will tell you what their professional evaluation of your hair currently is before doing such a service and may even be willing to do a test strand (which if they are in any doubt would be necessary in my opinion). All of this will lesson the chances of a disaster.

[Lollipop]

Also, keep regrowth in mind if you do get a perm. I don't know what level of tightness you want, or how you want the overall curl pattern to be, but it might be a good idea to get a perm that isn't tight from roots to ends. Maintenance would probably be easier if the first few inches were slightly wavy or even straight. But I'm just throwing out ideas.

[Tea Lady]

One way to end your dilemma would be to seek out a good stylist, have a consultation and see what she or he recommends.

A good stylist will tell you what their professional evaluation of your hair currently is before doing such a service and may even be willing to do a test strand (which if they are in any doubt would be necessary in my opinion). All of this will lesson the chances of a disaster.

The trouble is - how can she be sure it is a good stylist, who will be able to accurately tell what is best. I'm not trying to bash stylists, it's just that some will honestly believe that a perm done a certain way or with a certain product will not cause further damage.

I had this happen to me, years ago, for my last ever perm. I had had trouble with perms before. My hair would break at the scalp line. As it grew out, I would get massive breakage near the top of my head where the chemicals damaged the hair. But I still wanted curls, was determined to have them, rather than trying a hairsetter or simply accepting that I was not going to be able to have permanent curls.

The stylist, who did wonderful cuts and color, whom I liked and was a nice person, really thought that if she did a certain perm with certain precautions (such as how she had the rollers sit against my scalp) that all would be well. She was wrong. The same thing happened. So I had this broken off, tuft of hair that I had to grow out starting from 1/4" It was like a mini-buzz in a small section at the top of my scalp. Not desirable!

I think it is just that some people's hair cannot take the effect of the chemicals in any perm. Some can get gorgeous hair, some cannot. Apparently OP, you are not one whose hair can survive perm chemicals. Accept it and move on!

Here (http://www.pgbeautygroomingscience.com/hair-damage.html) is an article that shows the microscopic damage of badly treated hair. The damage is not repairable. If you add perm chemicals to already damaged hair, it is just going to get worse, not better. It was this very page that scared me off using heat tools (except for the above-mentioned Caruso hairsetter) and hairdryers, and reinforced to me why I will never get a perm again.

Tea Lady

[Babyfine]

In many ways I feel your pain-I permed my hair in the 80's and the 90's to get the volume and the body I was lacking. My hair does have some natural wave so it takes a curl easily,but it's baby-fine and fragile so I also struggled with damage and breakage. Of course, those were my pre-LHC days so I didn't know as much about avoiding damage as I do today. I, too, get urges to perm to increase my volume and avoid the stringy-ness my hair gets now.
My last perm was in 2001. I'm trying to accept my hair without a perm.
My current stylist has told me she wouldn't recommend a perm on my hair,unless I want damage.
Last summer when I visited my Dad and stepmom, my stepmom, who has known me since I was 13(I'm now 55) and has seen my hair throught all the ages, told me that my hair is looking better than she's ever seen it as far as shine and health. That made my day, and I decided then not to perm,but to keep my shine and health over the volume and curl.
Also, I thought I read somewhere that the perm chemicals actually weaken the hair shaft by about 30%, and with fine hair like mine, that means lots of breakage.
BTw I looked at your photos and I think your hair is just lovely the way it is!

[Kaelee]

I'm probably not helping by saying this but it is possible to have a beautiful well-behaved perm with minimal damage. I permed my hair once, for prom...it was gorgeous. Easier to care for than my straight hair (just scrunch and go!) and my hair showed no visible damage at all. (it was not damaged to start with though!)

I didn't even have visible straight roots when it grew out...the curls loosened over time so as it grew out, it looked completely natural. It also lasted way longer than it was supposed to. Almost a year later I still had some curl left in my hair- and people who didn't know me thought it was natural the whole time! :)

So there IS hope, if you want to do it.

[spidermom]

No no no, 1000 times no. Years ago I had a beautiful perm, but after a year it was losing its curl plus had relatively straight 5-6 inch roots, so I had a re-perm. OMG! It was a nightmare! I had very little curl, just lots of fluff - like cotton candy. Plus my hair started breaking off every time I tried to do anything with it. I ended up with a very short pixie. If you like a very short pixie, skip the perm and get one. It will be less traumatic.

[ktani]

The trouble is - how can she be sure it is a good stylist, who will be able to accurately tell what is best. I'm not trying to bash stylists, it's just that some will honestly believe that a perm done a certain way or with a certain product will not cause further damage.

I had this happen to me, years ago, for my last ever perm. I had had trouble with perms before. My hair would break at the scalp line. As it grew out, I would get massive breakage near the top of my head where the chemicals damaged the hair. But I still wanted curls, was determined to have them, rather than trying a hairsetter or simply accepting that I was not going to be able to have permanent curls.

The stylist, who did wonderful cuts and color, whom I liked and was a nice person, really thought that if she did a certain perm with certain precautions (such as how she had the rollers sit against my scalp) that all would be well. She was wrong. The same thing happened. So I had this broken off, tuft of hair that I had to grow out starting from 1/4" It was like a mini-buzz in a small section at the top of my scalp. Not desirable!

I think it is just that some people's hair cannot take the effect of the chemicals in any perm. Some can get gorgeous hair, some cannot. Apparently OP, you are not one whose hair can survive perm chemicals. Accept it and move on!

Here (http://www.pgbeautygroomingscience.com/hair-damage.html) is an article that shows the microscopic damage of badly treated hair. The damage is not repairable. If you add perm chemicals to already damaged hair, it is just going to get worse, not better. It was this very page that scared me off using heat tools (except for the above-mentioned Caruso hairsetter) and hairdryers, and reinforced to me why I will never get a perm again.

Tea Lady

There are stylists who specialize in chemical services including perms. One trained properly with experience doing perms would not have made the decision that caused more damage for you.

I have personally witnessed a mom insisting a salon do a perm on her daughter, who worked as a model, even though the salon owner and his technician did not recommend it because they knew that a section of damaged ends, which the mom also insisted not be trimmed off, would not yield the desired results.

The mom was given a waiver to sign, releasing the salon of liability when she still wanted the perm done.

I do not believe that the level of expertise and professionalism this salon displayed is an isolated case.

[Tea Lady]

There are stylists who specialize in chemical services including perms. One trained properly with experience doing perms would not have made the decision that caused more damage for you.


The point is that perms damage hair...period. No matter how specialized the stylist may be, perms damage hair. If hair is already damaged, as the OP mentions her hair is, she should not get another perm no matter how specialized someone is, even if they strand test and say it will be alright - it will still damage already damaged hair. Not a good thing if one wants to grow long, in my opinion. That was the point I was trying to make. She asked for opinions, I gave mine.

Tea Lady

[Charybdis]

Girl, I would kill for some 1a/1b hair so that I could have an adorable chin-length angled bob that would JUST FALL INTO PLACE after drying. Seriously, just say no to the perm.

Like one of the other commenters, I did get one really nice perm many (>20) years ago, but a pixie cut is the only way I was ultimately able to deal with growing it out. Don't fight the hair -- it will win.

[lapushka]

I had a perm done more than two years ago, almost three, at about chin length. The perm is still there and I'm hip length now (up to almost BSL, it's all perm). Some hair was pulled out at the root and I ended up with badly damaged ends (lots of white dots quite far up the length). The permed hair is dry, and damaged (severely lacking protein).

If you like the texture of a perm, you're going to have to maintain it like you maintain hair dye, esp. on long(er) hair. If it's just something you do once, might as well use a curling iron. A perm is fun for a few months, then it starts to grow out, and it grows out so very *very* slowly (great at first, not so great the more your own texture grows in -> makes growing out a pixie seem a piece of cake). If your own texture is quite far from curly then growing out the perm is not going to be much fun, at all! For a 2 like me it's slightly easier, but still it *is* a visibly different texture.

Me? I don't regret the perm. Curls are far easier to take care of than my own texture is. :o

[spidermom]

P.S: I was just looking at your album, and I truly think you have the type of hair that just isn't going to take a curl. A friend of mine from about 30 years ago had two perms about 5 days apart, she was so determined to get curl. She didn't. The second perm made her hair look like it had been braided, then brushed. (I don't remember if she air dried or what.) Experiment with curling your hair other ways. If your hair won't hold a curl from a wet set, a perm won't be the magic fix.

[ellen732]

I absolutely do not recommend perming bleached hair, more times than not it will feel like mush.

[Aerin]

I'm with Charybdis on this-I would love to have hair that just laid down...No worrying about how a brush/hairstyle/humidity will make your hair freak out.

[cindy58]

IMO, a perm is permanently stinky, and damaging. Neither of those things will help you achieve gorgeous hair.

In the olden days, I remember getting a perm to help hide some of the awkwardness of the growing out stage. It wasn't a good idea then, and it isn't now. I recently came across a photo of one, and the effect was bad, really bad.

[Liss]

Thanks everyone, you're all superstars! I now have plenty to think about.

My ideal theory is to have large curls that mostly sit as waves so the straight re-growth isn't so much of an obvious problem. My hair is at BSL and I'm not prepared to cut damage any shorter than APL. Ideally there would be no damage, but I'm only fooling myself with that thought!

I just want beautiful long curls and rollers, sock buns, etc never worked so I always think that only the heavy duty chemicals will help me experience having the hair I always dreamed of.

You're all doing a great job of helping to talk me out of it! Thank you :heart:

[spidermom]

Have you tried setting gel and rag curlers? That will usually curl even the most stubborn hair, although it only gave my straight-haired niece about half a day worth of curls followed by a nice body wave for the rest of the day.

[Carolyn]

I can think of quite a few instances when someone I knew got a perm wanting loose s waves. All they got was damage. They were assured by their stylists that "today's perms" are not damaging. A perm is a chemical change to the hair and a chemical change equals damage. Period. I realize perms have come a long way in the last decade or so. Yeah OK. But the way I see it damage is damage. I think you are kidding yourself if you think you can grow out without a line of demarcation between the permed length and the new hair. I think you would still have to set your hair on rollers to get the waves you want. I wish my hair was straighter but I am not going to chemically straighten it. Be happy with what you have.

[BeckyAH]

I would, if I had totally virgin, undamaged hair, get another 'body wave' type perm again today. I had one in high school and it was great. Big, bouncy, curls the day after washing and waves the rest of the time. No problem, really, with growing out and minimal damage.

But, you know, I tried that again after I started dying my hair - no bleach then, mind you, no heat styling, just dying. The ends of my hair broke off 3 inches. The rest was trashed. Don't go there. Seriously, just don't. You WILL regret it.

[WaitingSoLong]

I went to a salon a long time ago wanting a perm. I had a picture of a model (or something) in hand to show the lady exactly the kind of curls I wanted. She said: "those kind of curls don't come from perms, they come from hours of curling and styling by professionals". The look I wanted was basically impossible.

Oh, and I think perms work best with layers, my "all one length" perms never turned out good. EVER. I had a lot of perms in my past. A LOT.

I have had success with perms. I had a medium curl perm with a shag type APL length haircut and it really looked good....for the early 90's. Looking back, it was a very 80's thing I had carried over from my school days and was still doable that close to the decade. But I still curled the ends under because no matter how good the perm, the ends would never behave, plus a trim here or there and the ends change anyway.

I remember envying my sisters beautiful perm fropm her senior year at high school and that picture now is hilarious. My point? If you get a perm, don't get any photographic evidence. LOL.

If you are ok with perm damage, you may as well skip the perm and just use a good curling iron and lots o hairspray.

No-heat curlers never work for me (and I don't have the patience for them) and won't do heat styling, so a curling iron is out. I have tried rag curls to no avail (although I am wondering about the method Spidermom mentioned a few posts back). BRAIDS are the only thing that curls my hair and I have learned to do them just how I want to maximize curl. Yes, the waves lax out as the day goes but I ALWAYS HAVE THE OPTION to have either straight OR curly hair. I feel that is an advantage to straight hair I wish curlies had (other than relaxants and straightening irons).

With straight hair you can be a straighty one day, a curly the next, and also think about chlorine. If you swim at all chlorine can make perm damage so much worse, not to mention it turns blonde hair green faster that without a perm.

My hair is not as damaged as yours so I am not sure if the braids will work but your hair sounds plenty long to try it. I will mention I pre-spray my hair with aloe vera gel (diluted to runny with water so it can be sprayed) and let it dry, then I spray the completed braids pretty well with the AVG water, too. Sleep in it, next morning, voila...curls. Not only is it harmless to my hair but my hair LOVES aloe vera gel so it comes out soft, too. I was totally amazed at the difference using AVG spray made in how long my curls (ok, braid waves) stay. AVG doesn't make my hair crunchy like some people say it does....not sure why.

[jojo]

If you enjoy having healthy hair, then please don't perm. i have had 2 in my life and each one turned my hair into a frizzy mess. Try sock bun curls or rag curls instead.

[torrilin]

I just want beautiful long curls and rollers, sock buns, etc never worked so I always think that only the heavy duty chemicals will help me experience having the hair I always dreamed of.

Uh yeah... sad to say, the answer is no.

I didn't figure out I was a 1c til I got here, coz fine and 1c mean it's tremendously easy to pull out my natural waves and get no frizz at all. So as a child and teen, I desperately wanted curlier hair.

When I got a perm, the curl literally fell out of my hair when I washed it. I waited long enough, and was gentle in handling it, but... no curl.

So my hairdresser tried again. Fwooomp. It fell out again, tho this time I at least had waves left. Very *tight* waves. It looked awful.

Third time was the charm. Sort of. She had to use her tiniest curlers, and the thinnest sections of hair she could, and the strongest perm solution she had, and leave it on for extra extra time. My hair is pretty bleach happy at the best of times, but the perm took me from my natural brown to white blonde. Now it would stay as spirals kind of.

This is (unfortunately) pretty common if you dig through the straight hair threads. Some straight hair will keep dropping the curl out, no matter how strong or long the perm solution is.

If my hair is moisturized decently inside and out, these days it will hold a bit of wave for a few hours. Braid waves work. I can get a wet set to give me very gentle waves. But anything that resembles actual curls is just right out. My hair won't put up with it. And I basically have to use a hair care routine very similar to someone like Spidermom in order to even get that much ability to have waves. And I have to be really rigorous about the Curly Girl style no touching rules. Even shifting my hair from one shoulder to the other is enough to flatten my hair out of a wave pattern.