waistlength, now problems...

[dagny]

Hello.
My hair has (finally!) reached waist-length, but I find that I am not happy with it as I think I should be.

For starters, I really like the length!! I like putting it up in a simple bun (with a Flexi-8) and would like to wear it down more...

But I find that it doesn't LOOK as nice as I'd like and I can't figure out what the problem is. I imagined it would be shiny and bouncy and thick and healthy looking -- like a hair ad :eyebrows:. But instead, it looks thin and dull and dry looking. Not really the look I am going for. Whenever I saw others with thin, dry, dull looking long hair, I always wondered why they didn't cut it back to make it LOOK better.. Now I find that I am the one with this type of hair and I don't know what to do.

When it was BSL it looked healthy (see avatar photo) and I think it continued to look like this until about 8 months ago. Unfortunately, at that time I put layers in my hair and it was a HUGE mistake. The mantle of my hair is the thickest hair, and it was protecting the more fragile hair beneath. When I cut the layers, the underneath hair -- now being the longest hair -- was then exposed and became somewhat damaged. The damage isn't too bad, but I know that this is contributing to the hair's overall look.

Additionally, the layers are now making my hemline look somewhat scraggly, as opposed to thick and healthy. I have a v-shape to the hem-line also....and this just adds to the thinness. I guess some would call them "fairy-tale" ends and I guess they are, but I am in my 40's and I don't think this look suits my style. I have thick hair overall, so I know it isn't an issue of my hair being "thin" per se, but I think it is a combination of the long length, plus the layers/v-hemline that is making it look thin.

So now I don't know what to do. If my hair doesn't look amazing at this long length, then I need to change something: cut it or use different products in the hopes of making it look better while keeping the length.

As I said above, I like the length. My options are to slowly trim it until the layers catch up -- hopefully giving me a thick hemline and giving me the look I want. Or I could chop it back to BSL and this would remove all the layers. There is no guarantee, however, that my hair will look thick and healthy at waist-length with no layers.

Another option is to use cones to try and protect the fragile length until the healthier 'mantle' hairs get longer. This might also give me shine and make it look less dry. Something that I would like very much. In the past, I used cones and my hair always looked great (I am talking about 6-7 yrs ago), but my hair wasn't this long at the time. I havn't really used cones since.

As for product usage, When it was SL-BSL I did the no-poo thing for about 6 months, then switched to CO (Suave Naturals coconut). I liked the CO (and even the no-poo) but wanted to reduce chemical usage due to health problems and I started to use Giovanni's Smooth as Silk alternating with Triple Treat shampoo/conditioner. I have also used Aubrey Organics, but they never seem to work as well as I want them too, even with a vinegar rinse. Other than the Suave Naturals, none of the other products I mention here really "float my boat".

My hair looks dry and dull, but I don't think it is truly dry -- just dull. I use Weleda Rosemary Hair Oil, Jojoba oil, or coconut oil sometimes. I go through spurts when I use the oils every night for a month, but then forget for weeks at at time. I only wash once a week and mainly use CWC with the above mentioned products.

As for naughty behavior, I don't color but did use a little Sun-In a few weeks ago hoping that maybe a little bit of hi-lights might make my hair look shinier (didn't really make a difference and now I worry that I have added to my problem) I also used a blow-dryer about 3-4 times these past 6 months. I pretty much wear my hair up or in a pony-tail.

I did use a henna gloss a couple of times (with body grade henna/senna) in the past 2 years but havn't in the past year. I always wondered if maybe henna dried people's hair out when they stop using it? (like the henna dries out the hair but coats the damage and it isn't realized until the person stops using henna? Kind of like what I hear cones do...?)

I have tried SMT but didn't have much success. Maybe I need to try something else in the mix? I do an S&D every month or so and my last trim (1") was back around Easter. When I do an S&D I do not find that my hair is riddled with splits, but I do notice several when I do not have my scissors! Then as soon as I get my scissors, I don't find very many. So I can't really say that my hair is extremely damaged...

I would really appreciate any advice or maybe even some insight from others with waist-length hair who might have gone through this problem.

Thanks!
Dagny

[skyblue]

The first thing I would suggest is to clarify your whole head length and all, a vinegar rinse and then give yourself a good SMT
I noticed on my own hair that when my ends look bad it's usually caused by build up, as for the deep V shape
Do a Fey's self trim, just the straight trim with the pony tail, this will take some of the V shape away and make it more of a U shape, I had a deep V shape when I fist joined I just trimmed off the point, you wouldn't believe the difference after that you can do monthly micro trims to even up your layers I did this for about 4 months and even in that short of time my layers were almost gone I had long layers though yours might need longer if you had shorter layers
I also mix honey in my conditioner once in while to help moisturize my hair
other then the thickness our hair types are pretty close, be patient, it takes a bit of time, my ends are getting better still on the thin side lol but you have lovely thick hair, once those layers catch up you'll feel better
I hope this helps and good luck

[princess03]

Gosh I did the same thing added layers and regretted it

I lost 6 months of growth !

I trimmed it little by little with monthly trims because I didn't wanna do it all at once that way you know the ends will keep getting trimmed regularly so damaged will be minimized as opposed to cutting say 3 inches and trimming less often to reach goal, if that makes sense :)

good luck!

[dagny]

Skyblue and Princess --

Thank you very much for your great advice! I will do the clarify, vinegar, SMT tonight. What do you use to typically use to clarify -- baking soda?

I also like both of your suggestions about the micro-trims (and loosing the "V"). The last time I had my hair cut at the salon (1 yr ago) he chopped off about 4-6 inches and my jaw hit the floor because that was about a year's growth! I was kicking myself because had I done micro-trims each month I would have had healthier hair and would have reached waist-length much sooner.

I didn't plan on growing my hair any longer...although I am quite tempted! My husband doesn't like really long hair (my mother had hers down to her knees! It was so amazing and ridiculously thick) and I think I am pushing it just with waist length. Fortunately I am short-waisted, so maybe I can squeek TBL past him. But it has to look GREAT or else it just wont' work and he will make me chop it back to like BSL.

I am going to try and get a photo of my hair before I loose the "V" -- maybe tomorrow -- and post it to see what you all think. And I forgot about my signature photo (my hair goal) which does NOT have a "V" shape or layers. What was I thinking when I cut it??!!?? :confused::confused::confused::confused:

Cheers,
Dagny

[AnnaJamila]

I say clarify like nobody's business then SMT and a blunt trim. I think you just have buildup. I did CO for a while, too, but the buildup was so awful I just went back to shampoo/conditioner. If it ain't broke don't fix it, right? :p

I would say maintain at waist until the layers get cut out. Layers messed up my hair badly.

[kahill]

I would also recommend slowly trimming. I once had a SL perm that I grew out. I got it past BSL with gradual trims and at that point I told the stylist just to hack off the permed bits, no matter how short it made it. Big mistake. Ended up with SL hair (or slightly longer) again, which made me crazy. Worst length ever. But several years later it's down to my tailbone.

Just have patience. Experience is a good teacher. You've learned that you probably shouldn't layer. I've learned that I shouldn't perm. :)

[julliams]

I started reading your post this morning, and put it away for later - it's a topic close to my heart. I'm around your age as well and have been feeling very similar to you. I toyed with the idea of face framing layers, getting more layers etc etc... I also had that layer at the bottom that just made my hair look dry and like it was damaged when really, it was just the bottom layers kicking around.

I decided to trim, not really knowing exactly what I wanted and walked into the salon figuring that I would walk out with layers of some description as that is normally what happens when I go to a salon.

My experience was very different from what I expected. The stylist suggested I stick with my guns and go for waist length hair with a U shape (which meant taking my hair back to the shortest layer that wasn't quite waist length. Here's my thread for reference http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=73995&highlight=long+awaited+trim

I think it does look better now BUT my ends were feeling almost waxy and I didn't like the feel of my hair - it was all tangly and just not cooperating. Normally after a trim my hair would actually be feeling really soft at the ends.

Ok, so fast forward a week, and I got some Pantene Clarifying shampoo (figured it would really strip out the gunk) and it has made a world of difference.

Here's what I think - the bottom layer that I had and months of S & D had given me fairytailish ends that I think looked really nice with my curls. Being all one length has made my hemline very thick and whilst I know alot of people go for this look, I don't know how I feel about it yet. I kind of like the whispier curls I had at the bottom, rather than a big curtain of them - but that could just be me getting used to a new look.

I do however not miss the extra layer at the bottom. On my straighter days, it doesn't look like my hair is damaged anymore which is good. I'm still getting used to it . Your "aspiring to" picture is how I think my hair will look when it's finally at hip length.

But seriously - clarify and simplify your routine. Just do the things that you love (ie oiling or SMT's) and let your hair do it's thing.

There's a thread that someone posted of how they cut of a braid thinking that it was all damaged, only to find that 3 years later, when she looked at it, her hair looked just fine. Sometimes we get caught up in an image of what we expect it to look like. Just go with your texture - try to learn to love how it is in it's natural state and let it be that. I think hair always looks better the way it's meant to be. I have to learn that lesson for myself too. I'm getting there...

[Anje]

Just another chiming in to say clarify and deep condition. Then reassess what you think of your hemline, and maybe start taking the point off it to make it U-shaped.

I like a good sulfate shampoo labeled as "Clarifying" for that purpose. Apply a decent amount, full strength, and suds the full length. Rinse and repeat once, just for good measure. You can use a baking soda solution, but it seems much harsher on hair.

[SpeakingEZ]

There's definitely no need to cut back to BSL. It seems like most people who cut halfway up to their shortest layer see a huge difference in how their hemline looks. Cutting off the tip of your V might be plenty.

For clarifying, I agree with Anje. Baking soda is a bit too harsh for my hair, too, so I just clarify with a normal sulfate shampoo and make sure to put the shampoo straight onto my length as opposed to putting it on my scalp and letting the shampoo move down. Follow up with a good conditioning. "Waxy" is always how I would describe my hair right before I clarify.

As for the henna, I've found it to be drying if I use lemon juice in the mix and don't mix in any conditioner. Did you use straight henna and not mix any conditioner in to the batch? When the henna dries out my hair, though, I notice it right away. I never see the dryness after X amount of time not using it. I only see my hair go back to its pre-henna condition after a certain amount of time.

[Anje]

I generally find henna drying, myself. Moreso for my scalp than my hair, though. It's worse mixed with lemon juice than with water, but mixing it largely with oil seems to be the mildest method for my scalp. Conversely, not hennaing is not drying for me. YMMV, of course.

[ZeppHead]

Why not carry a pair of scissors with you? I keep one in my bag so I can cut wherever I am, people will think you are strange but hey its your hair that benefiting!!

[dagny]

Thank you, everyone, for your great suggestions.

Julliams -- thank you for telling me your story. I looked at that post you had written and your hair looks so lovely! It doesn't even look like much was taken off, so that's great, too. I really wish I had a stylist like the one that you found. I would think it quite rare to find one these days who wants to promote long hair -- guess they don't make much money on those of us who only go once a year or so! :-)

I took the advice given and clarified. To be honest, I think it has been way over a year since I have done this and I was smacking my head wondering why I hadn't thought of it!! I didn't get Anje or SpeakingEZ's posts before I clarified -- so I had used about a Tablespoon of baking soda in about 2 cups of water and ran it through my hair. Immediately my hair began to feel "soapy" and squeaky -- I had forgotten how it felt like this when I did the "no poo" thing. And I also found a natural shampoo I had that was listed as "clarifying", so I went ahead and used it too along with the vinegar rinse. Then I did an SMT.

My hair feels sooooooooo much better -- no more dry "straw". It also looks shiny again, so I am so grateful. I did some S&D today (very sharp scissors, of course) but didn't really find much, so that's good.

As for the henna questions: I did Nightshade's mix, but used a TON of conditioner. I last did the henna over a year ago, so I don't really see any more of the color in my hair because it has pretty much faded. When I did the henna, that was what I had wanted -- something more of a gloss that would fade because I didn't want to cover up the greys. It worked but I realized that my natural coloring was more flattering -- so I am glad that my hair is back to "normal".

I still don't know about cutting off the tip of the "V", because it seems like I will have to cut a lot off. Of course, that doesn't mean that I can't take an inch off off the tip and then take 1/4 inch off each month?

I am going to try and attach a photo so you can all see. My 5 yr old took the photo... 'nuff said. If I can't upload here, I did put the photos in my album (and the 2010 album is there when I first did the henna).

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=8275&pictureid=107876

What do you think? 1 " off? or 1/4"?
Cheers,
Dagny
---hmm...can't seem to make the photo work. Not sure why. It is in my album, though. sorry... :-(

[Toadstool]

You say your hair looked great with cones, so maybe you should go back to using them?

[ArienEllariel]

I took a look at your album. Quite honestly, I like your hair the way it is. If you feel that it doesn't look good, just do a little micro trim.

[Maverick494]

I'm big on chopping whenever the ends start to look wispy and tapery. I once had a V cut and I hated it so much (wavies made it look bad, it was a very sharp V) I had it cut back to one length and went from BSL to APL. Right now I'm at waistlength with regular trims every 3/4 months (max. 6 months.) My hemline is thick and I like the way my hair looks at WL, though I could have been at hip or TB if I hadn't done the big chop. I will always choose quality over quantity though. Long hair is worth nothing to me if it doesn't look good (to me).

That said, the problem with getting a big chop done is though it will even out your hemline and make it thick like you want, because your hair grows at different rates, you'll have to keep trimming as you grow, making progress slow. It took me 2 years to get my blunt hemline to WL and that's painstakingly long in my opinion.

Some people here have had good results getting microtrims until the rest of the hair catches up to the current hair length. So if you don't want to sacrifice length, I would maintain this length with trims until your hemline has evened out to your liking. That means no progress in length, but progress in thickness instead. I wouldn't grow it longer now you're not completely satisfied with it because you'll end up with more taper.

[Anje]

I don't think your hair looks bad in the pic. The ends might be a bit thinned out from time without trimming, but it's not bad. (And I suspect it's better than it was pre-clarifying, right?)

Maybe trim the last 1/2 inch off. Or wait a month, then trim it to bring it back up to waist. Hang out there for a few months, and you'll get your hemline thickened up nicely without losing length.

[ericthegreat]

Dagny, I took a look at both of your latest photos in your album and your ends are by no means too thin. Actually, I like the look of long layers and a V-shaped hemline, looking at it from a distance it gives your overall head of hair a very flattering shape.

I think the best course of action for you is to just slowly trim off the bottom ends over the course of several months. Take off less than 1 inch off the ends once every month. They will naturally thicken up over time. That way you get to keep the most of your hard-earned length. :flower:

[Mesmerise]

Well, it's entirely up to you what you do. In the past I was a big fan of telling people to gradually trim their ends.

However... I recently cut off 2.5" and I feel SO MUCH better about my hair now. I was soooo close to waist...and I was so rapt to be there, but my hair just didn't look good when I wore it loose so I wore it pulled back all the time, which isn't why I grew my hair long in the first place... I WANT to be able to wear my hair loose when I choose!! I want to feel attractive with my hair!

Now, I've lost length...but my ends look less straggly so I'm happier with my hair. I know it will take awhile to get back to where I was...and I do need to trim more off to thicken it up... but ultimately I think it's for the best.

Now, to me your hair doesn't look that bad! It's still quite thick looking. But if you cut off 1" or so, you may find your ends are a bit blunter and you may feel a lot better about it!

It's a personal thing what you do... ultimately I decided to chop more off than I'd ever planned on doing (I wanted to grow to goal and then gradually trim) but I am glad I didn't do it that way as I like my hair more now.

[SpeakingEZ]

Yeah, your hair is no where near as thin/ V-ed as I thought it would be! It doesn't even look like a V to me (unless you've already snipped off the tip?).

I think only an inch off would make it look much better. 2 inches max, and you'll have a nice U-shaped hemline. Don't go overboard with the self-trims, it isn't nearly as thin as would require a several-inch chop.

[RitaCeleste]

You could say, okay I'll keep it trimmed to the waist for awhile until it grows out slowly. Or you could take that two inches off now and just know it'll take about four months to get the length back. I trimmed 2 1/2 inches off mine and it hasn't fully grown back yet. I was very unhappy about it. I need to trim it again if I ever want the sides to catch up but this time, I just can't do it. I'm not gonna trim anything until its well below my waist. It doesn't look bad now. A few trims and it'll be gone if you want it to be.

[dagny]

Everybody -- thank you all so much!!

I do think my hair looks MUCH better since I clarified it. In the photo I took today, I did have a bit of "bun waves" that I tried to dampen out straight. I don't know if the ends will still look scraggly once it is straight -- or if the clarifying has improved the ends.

Since the majority of you said that it doesn't really look that bad right now, I think I will wait a month and then take about 1/2 inch off -- then do micro-trims each month until the layers catch up. This way I don't have to really sacrifice any of the length while I continue to improve it's appearance. Yea!! :cheese:

Thanks again for all of the kind words and great advice.

Cheers,
Dagny