If hair is dead then....

[jhill923]

Ok I dont get it. If hair is already dead then how can the cuticle on it open and close ? seems to be dead stuff doesnt have ability to do things like that. LoL

Just curious, how this is possible.

[Roseate]

The opening/closing isn't an active thing on the part of the hair, it's just an effect of the environment it's in.

If you soak dead wood in water, it will swell and warp and become soft and bendable, if you take it out of the water it will become hard again; similar deal with hair. Dead doesn't mean unchangeable.

[HairFaerie]

"Dead" things can react to the environment. I am guessing it would be the same for hair.

For example, wood (that's already been cut down) will expand and contract according to the temperature. Also, stuff like paint will eventually peel and chip away.

Even though the cuticle of the hair is not "alive" so to speak, it still reacts to things like temperature and humidity.

That's my non-scientific theory. :)

[HairFaerie]

The opening/closing isn't an active thing on the part of the hair, it's just an effect of the environment it's in.

If you soak dead wood in water, it will swell and warp and become soft and bendable, if you take it out of the water it will become hard again; similar deal with hair. Dead doesn't mean unchangeable.

You beat me too it! We must have been typing at the same time, but I type slower! :)

[Roseate]

You beat me too it! We must have been typing at the same time, but I type slower! :)

Jinx! Funny we both chose wood as an example! :p

[HairFaerie]

You know what they say...great minds think alike!:cheese:

[alwayssmiling]

Great question. I guess you guy answered very well.

[jojo]

Great answers!

[Amber_Maiden]

Really good answers. Makes sense to me :)

[krissykins]

You know what they say...great minds think alike!:cheese:

Or you two just have wood on the mind.

Yea, I went there.

[Juneii]

Or you two just have wood on the mind.

Yea, I went there.

ooooooooh my goodness! :eyebrows:

but yes, good question and good answers! I couldn't have thought of a better example :)

[beez1717]

The example of wood reminded me of Monty Python and the Holy Grail! "If it's made of wood and floats like a duck, then it's a witch!" By the way, great explanations you two. I never thought of hair like that before.

[Roseate]

Or you two just have wood on the mind.

Yea, I went there.

:whistle:

Um, maple, birch, oak... so innocent here...:p

[MonaLisa]

call me stupid but i refuse to believe hair is dead....just because it doesn't hurt when cut :P it does hurt when pulled!
it feels very much alive! as part of body and soul ;) besides, it's growing, which is symbol of life..
dead single hairs fall out..lots of live ones stay..and new ones are born :)
Hair changes if your health condition or even mood changes...and it's not just roots but entire length, at least for me...
also you can live without hair, but you can live without some of the other body parts too :P

:lala:

[angelshair]

I feel the same as MonaLisa. We describe hair as dead to debunk the myth that there are things you can do to "heal" damaged hair. As long as it's attached to my head, I consider it a part of my body and thus "alive". When it is shed or cut off, it's dead.

We don't go around talking about how our nails are dead and most people feel they are a part of their bodies. :)

[Panth]

call me stupid but i refuse to believe hair is dead....just because it doesn't hurt when cut :P it does hurt when pulled!
it feels very much alive! as part of body and soul ;) besides, it's growing, which is symbol of life..
dead single hairs fall out..lots of live ones stay..and new ones are born :)
Hair changes if your health condition or even mood changes...and it's not just roots but entire length, at least for me...
also you can live without hair, but you can live without some of the other body parts too :P

:lala:


I feel the same as MonaLisa. We describe hair as dead to debunk the myth that there are things you can do to "heal" damaged hair. As long as it's attached to my head, I consider it a part of my body and thus "alive". When it is shed or cut of, it's dead.

We don't go around talking about how our nails are dead and most people feel they are a part of their bodies. :)

Erm. It is dead. The reason it is described as dead is because the individual cells that make up hair are ... dead. They are no longer metabolically active, they no longer respire. They have undergone programmed cell death to produce hair.

It's exactly the same as nails - or even the uppermost layers of cells in your skin. Dead.

The reason hair hurts to be pulled is the same reason you can feel being pinched or stubbing your fingernail against something. The dead cells are bound to cells that are living (the nail bed, underneath your skin; the hair follicle, inside your scalp skin; the lower, live, levels of your skin). Thus, when pulling/pushing/pinching/bumping the dead part, force is transferred to the live part and you feel it. In the case of hair pulling or skin pinching, the force is enough to register as pain.

...but it doesn't mean that the bits we see as hair (the bits from the surface of the scalp skin onwards) are not dead. That is a simple biological fact. Which, like all science, you can go *lalalalalalala* and pretend isn't true ... but that won't make any difference. :)

As for how hair changes its appearance, despite being dead. Well, though it is not biologically active, it can react chemically (like the dead wood described). You can polish wood with simple friction and it will gain a sheen. Add linseed oil or similar and it can look very shiny and pretty. How is that different from "polishing" hair by combing (or even, to improve the analogy, a BBB) and adding coconut oil or conditioner ... or even just brushing the sebum down the hair shaft? However, a hair is a much more complicated structure than a piece of cut wood (a better analogy would, perhaps, be a felled but otherwise un-messed with tree, bark still present). As anyone who has used an ACV rinse will tell you, hair can react chemically in ways that will improve its appearance.

</science spiel>

[MonaLisa]

The dead cells are bound to cells that are living (the nail bed, underneath your skin; the hair follicle, inside your scalp skin; the lower, live, levels of your skin). Thus, when pulling/pushing/pinching/bumping the dead part, force is transferred to the live part and you feel it.

even this alone defines it as alive :)
i dont see my hair as pile of cells, i see it as a part of me, beautiful and magical, and it will be dead when i cut it off and throw it away or when i die.

and i didnt mean it changes it looks by adding oils and polishing...i mean you know, when you are sick or feeling bad..it just changes.
same for nails, sometimes they break easy and sometimes they are strong..depending on what you eat etc..
there is things inside effecting them all..

also if i think of a kitty's claws...word dead just doesn't go with it...as claws are such relevant part of their bodies..

We all see world with our own eyes, and i dont think biologists nowadays are all knowing...or humans in general..
there so much more we dont know.
and i expressed my thoughts, not facts i think everyone should accept.

lalalalala :D

[Dars]

Well said Panth. :applause

[angelshair]

As a medical student, I know very well what you are speaking of, which is why I used the word "feel". For those of you scientifically inclined a feeling might be defined as an "Opinion based more on emotion than on reason" (sorry, couldn't resist :D).

Like all sciences of course, the science of the human body can never be better than the methods used to measure it and like all science, there is no absolute proof of anything, only theories supported by varying amounts of empirical data. I am humbled to learn how much there is that still can't be explained in the beauty that is the human body and some kind of "connection" between the hair and the rest of the body definitely wouldn't be the strangest thing I've heard of.

I see hair as an extension of a human being, which is alive. It grows out of a body, which is alive. Hair is a part of the continuous process of life and death that makes up our organism. To me, it makes no sense to so strictly differentiate the different layers of the skin to find out exactly when the skin cells are considered dead. It is part of the everchanging human body, is experienced as part of the human body, and can therefore be considered as alive, as a part of a whole.

Btw, I'm not saying that this IS the absolute truth, just that we shouldn't be so sure. :)

[MonaLisa]

:agree:

Such wonderful post Angelshair :o

[Othala]

I see hair as an extension of a human being, which is alive. It grows out of a body, which is alive. Hair is a part of the continuous process of life and death that makes up our organism. To me, it makes no sense to so strictly differentiate the different layers of the skin to find out exactly when the skin cells are considered dead. It is part of the everchanging human body, is experienced as part of the human body, and can therefore be considered as alive, as a part of a whole.

Beautifully written and a perfect description in my humble opinion.

[RoseRed27]

I completely understand what people are saying when they say they "feel" their hair isn't dead. Yes, the cells in the actual strands aren't biologically active. Yes, you can describe that as "dead". But it's a body part. Hair is the result of a biological process. It's meant for a purpose. When we describe hair as "dead", it makes it seem like a waste product, something left behind from the living cells. Is it? Yes. Is that all? No. The human body is a magical vessel. And some people just feel there's more:magic::pegasus: to it. There's room for both scientific and poetic explanations. ^__^

I suppose "dead" can be easier to say than "cellularly inactive" or some such phrase. But it also brings with it subtle negative associations. I like to think that hair doesn't hurt because mother nature wanted us to do all sorts of lovely styles with it. And who would get bangs if it would hurt as bad as chopping off a limb? :p

[HairFaerie]

Ummmmm....I don't mean to be negative or argumentative but just because people are attached to their hair and nails doesn't mean they're "alive". It's a social standard of beauty.

If you are going to be that attached to the hair on your head and say it's "alive" and an extension of you, then why do so many people shave their legs, underarms & pluck their eyebrows? They aren't emotionally attached to that and do everything to get rid of it. It's a social "norm" and people follow what society deems as "beauty". Unfortunately in the US, hairy pits just aren't embraced so we get rid of the hair there. Nobody cares if it's dead or alive, they just want it gone!

I do see the differentiation that people make that hair is an extension of their body, but on a cellular level......ummmmm....it's dead. Period. No big deal. The follicle is the part that is alive. That's why "feeding" your hair from the inside out is the best way to make it healthy. After it starts growing out of the scalp, if it gets damaged, you can only temporarily change it to look a certain way. If it is healthy & strong structurally from the inside starting with the follicle, it will grow faster and appear healthy. If it is not healthy & strong structurally, it will be dry, thin, etc.

Back to the "wood" comparison. (He he he.....I said "wood"!) A tree is "alive" and grows leaves but in the fall the leaves are shed and the tree starts to appear "dead" because it is dormant. To me, our hair can be likened to that. It goes through growth spurts, shedding and various other stages. Only certain parts of it are technically "alive", no matter how attached to it you are.

Yes, it is an extension of ourselves that we identify with and try to make as beautiful as possible. I am not denying that. I am just saying that there is a difference between that and it actually being "alive" on a cellular level. It isn't. It's a process that happens that people have socially identified with as "beauty". That still doesn't change the fact that it's dead.

[Panth]

I suppose "dead" can be easier to say than "cellularly inactive" or some such phrase. But it also brings with it subtle negative associations. I like to think that hair doesn't hurt because mother nature wanted us to do all sorts of lovely styles with it. And who would get bangs if it would hurt as bad as chopping off a limb? :p

It isn't cellularly inactive. Its cells are dead. There is a difference there - to call it cellularly inactive would be akin to implying that sleeping and death are the same.

You can be as poetic and emotive about it as you like, but from a simple biological and chemical perspective, it is dead. And, when trying to figure out what to do to improve its condition (as the OP was querying - trying to flatten the cuticle's scales) that is what matters.

There is nothing wrong about it being dead. Nothing bad about it. :confused: I don't see why it is such a controversial thing to state!

[Mannaz]

I don't see why it is such a controversial thing to state!

Well for me the word "dead" raises a very unpleasant vision, I don't want to think of anything in my body to be dead since I am very much alive :) i'm not going to argue with biology but it feels paradoxal to me... I liked the term dormant a lot better :)

RoseRed27 said it so well: there is room for both, science and poeticism. At least there should be :)

[Panth]

Well for me the word "dead" raises a very unpleasant vision, I don't want to think of anything in my body to be dead since I am very much alive :) i'm not going to argue with biology but it feels paradoxal to me... I liked the term dormant a lot better :)

RoseRed27 said it so well: there is room for both, science and poeticism. At least there should be :)

*shrug* Dormant implies can wake. It can't.

I'm afraid I don't have the same issue with death ... people think I'm weird because I think deceased mouse foetuses are cute...

[Roseate]

There is nothing wrong about it being dead. Nothing bad about it. :confused: I don't see why it is such a controversial thing to state!

Yes, I'm certainly surprised by the turn the thread's taken! I love my hair, but have no need to think of it as a literally living thing. It's a body part like fingernails or skin; it grows and sheds, it's a natural cycle.

[Mannaz]

people think I'm weird because I think deceased mouse foetuses are cute...

I so laughed at this :D And now I'm trying to stop myself from doing a "deceased mouse foetuses" google.

There's nothing creepy about death and I've dealt with it on many levels, it's just that like I said it seems paradoxal to me that I have "dead things" growing from my dear body. I don't like the way it sounds or the associations that come with it, so I refuse to think that, even if it makes me irrational or a wimp :) Or an irrational wimp for that matter :D

This is a very interesting discussion!

[MonaLisa]

Ok some choose to count dead parts and alive parts and decide to call it dead...fine, your call..
some of us see it as part of the body, and alive and aging, growing, shedding, changing...
I see hair as whole...roots, length, tips....movement, color, itches and pains, pleasure when stroked...counting it all in...
as for tree comparison...leaves die and fruits mature and fall down and rot...it doesn't make it dead...
dead tree is a cut tree...or a really dead, diseased tree if there is such a thing...

i don't see why you're all over us.
i don't mind you saying hair is dead.
i don't feel that way about mine, and i have different views on life.
would appreciate if you could stick with your opinion but not try ' persuade' those who have their own opinions..it's pointless.

[HairFaerie]

Not trying to be rude, but it's not opinion. It's fact. Hair is dead.

http://www.hair-science.com/_int/_en/topic/topic_sousrub.aspx?tc=ROOT-HAIR-SCIENCE^PORTRAIT-OF-AN-UNKNOWN-ELEMENT^WHAT-WE-DO-SEE&cur=WHAT-WE-DO-SEE

This is just one of a billion links to that fact.

What is the opinion is how you "feel" about it and I am not trying to persuade anyone to "feel" any differently about their hair. That would be pointless.

[gthlvrmx]

I honestly feel and think that hair is just a giant pile of :cheese: Just wish there were more of it. :p

[RoseRed27]

Wait, wait, wait! :p Most people know hair is dead. Some are just expressing that, for them, it doesn't feel "dead". For some, hair only feels dead when it sheds. When it's attached to your body, it feels like a body part. And people don't think of their body parts as alive or dead. Of course there are scientific articles saying hair is dead. It's just a fiber. And the sun is just a ball of gas, but darn it--when that that gas ball dips behind the ocean, it's one of the most emotionally triggering scenes in our natural world. (For our science-only folks here: I know the sun doesn't "dip" behind anything and it's just an illusion caused by earths rotation :D) For some people, "dead" has subtle negative connotations. They just wished the term used merely conveyed that the cells in the hair strand don't reproduce and never will again, but that's what they are meant to do. :p

It seems as if some are trying to disprove an emotional connection with science. Do I know hair is dead? Yes. Do I treat it as such? No. If I did, I would shave it off as it grows out, just like I snip off brown droopy flowers off a vibrant bush or rake the rust colored leaves that fall from the lush tree. For some, hair is just a thing that grows out of your head. I understand that. But for others, there is an emotional attachment that makes them feel as though their hair is more than just that. I understand that too. :) Some people have no negative associations with death. I get that. Some do. I understand, because for most people, when something dies, they rarely want to keep it around and moisturize it. :p

[Anje]

Would you all feel better if we describe it as apoptosed instead of dead? That differentiates it from being necrotic, at least.

(Meanwhile, I'm hoping that's accurate, since it's not disposed of the way most cells that undergo apoptosis are.... Someone who studies things with more than one cell, help me out!)

[MonaLisa]

Wait, wait, wait! :p Most people know hair is dead. Some are just expressing that, for them, it doesn't feel "dead". For some, hair only feels dead when it sheds. When it's attached to your body, it feels like a body part. And people don't think of their body parts as alive or dead. Of course there are scientific articles saying hair is dead. It's just a fiber. And the sun is just a ball of gas, but darn it--when that that gas ball dips behind the ocean, it's one of the most emotionally triggering scenes in our natural world. (For our science-only folks here: I know the sun doesn't "dip" behind anything and it's just an illusion caused by earths rotation :D) For some people, "dead" has subtle negative connotations. They just wished the term used merely conveyed that the cells in the hair strand don't reproduce and never will again, but that's what they are meant to do. :p

It seems as if some are trying to disprove an emotional connection with science. Do I know hair is dead? Yes. Do I treat it as such? No. If I did, I would shave it off as it grows out, just like I snip off brown droopy flowers off a vibrant bush or rake the rust colored leaves that fall from the lush tree. For some, hair is just a thing that grows out of your head. I understand that. But for others, there is an emotional attachment that makes them feel as though their hair is more than just that. I understand that too. :) Some people have no negative associations with death. I get that. Some do. I understand, because for most people, when something dies, they rarely want to keep it around and moisturize it. :p

Good point(s) :) Love the last line! :)
:thumbsup:

[CurlAhead]

I understand, because for most people, when something dies, they rarely want to keep it around and moisturize it. :p

:lol: :laugh:

However, can hair take up all this nutrition from conditioners etc? Why does it get softer and so on? :hmm:

[Mamakash]

The "hair is dead" argument only has any merit when it comes to people who say "your hair will be healthier if you cut it" or "your hair will grow faster if you cut it" or "our product will make your hair healthier". Because, as we know, the potential health of hair ends after the hair has grown from the bulb/scalp ends. Maintenance begins at this point to keep hairs from breaking or splitting. Care is taken to prevent hairs from shedding. We do a lot of different things to help hair grow and keep attached to our scalps. I would probably recognize my scalp as living more than my hair, but I don't think of my hair as dead. At the same time, hair is not like a pair of kidneys or a heart or arteries.
I did have an infected toenail removed last March. Let me tell you . . . nails are NOT DEADshudder:. Nails are a lot more important than you might think!

[RoseRed27]

:lol: :laugh:

However, can hair take up all this nutrition from conditioners etc? Why does it get softer and so on? :hmm:

I agree with mamakash that referring to hair as already dead is best used to deter someone from thinking a product will reverse all sorts of irreparable damage. Something that is dead can't respond to the "signal" of a trim and grow faster. (although, fresh healthy ends that don't snag and split might make it easier for someone to retain length and see more progress.)

A shirt isn't alive, but it will get softer with fabric softener. ;) Some of what is in conditioners can penetrate the hair shaft and add strength and moisture. Much of what is in conditioners just sits on the hair. That can be a good thing for some people. I know that some oils don't go into my hair strands, but I like the way my hair feels with it. The comb glides through better, no frizzies or flyaways etc. While ingredients don't "nourish" hair (because it isn't alive) some add to the hair's overall health. (Less shedding, breakage, dryness, more shine, softness) See even how we talk about hair? "Healthy hair?" How healthy can it be when it's dead! :p


I know, I know, it is technically dead...:D