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View Full Version : Need even MORE moisture! How?



sweet&sourkiwi
March 3rd, 2011, 10:27 PM
HEEEEELLLP! (please. :)

I have SMT'd (with biolage balm), coconut oiled (while damp, or overnight as a pre-wash), CO'd for weeks, clarified, chelated, shea buttered, and doused my hair with Triple Nutrition every wash, stretched washes, rinsed with vinegar or club soda, quit blow-drying and other head tools, (not all in the same day or even the same month mind you!) and my hair from the ears down is DRY DRY DRY! (From the ears up, greasy w/in two days of a wash.)

The only thing I haven't tried much is anything heavily coney, although I did do a 20-minute Mega Moisture treatment and there was amodimethicone involved. I also own some light coney condish but it's not enough. Also, I had an ill-fated brush with oil shampoo...

It is extremely dry where I live and I have harsh, hard water. I need to somehow infuse my hair with a TON of moisture! Right now! Even after SMT it feels parched, tangly and brittle (albeit a little less so?). What could I be doing wrong?

It has been plagueing me for almost 6 months and I feel like I've tried just about every technique and suggestion but I must be missing something! A hairdresser suggested I straight up quit washing but the transition stage is not feasible for me currently.

Any ideas on how I can completely moisturize my hair? Thank you!

sweet&sourkiwi
March 3rd, 2011, 10:28 PM
PS Clarification - I own a light coney conditioner but I haven't been using it lately with the CO...so at least I know it's not cone-buildup.

rena
March 3rd, 2011, 10:40 PM
Since you chelated and clarified, all I can suggest is that your hair might me porous, which means it may have difficulty holding on to its moisture. Does it get soaking wet quickly and very easily?

I also struggle with crazy dry hair even though I do not torture it with heat or any other kind of abuse so I definitely know the feeling. What works for me is to apply a light coating of Triple Nutrition on my wet (but not dripping or towel dried, just gently squeezed) hair after usual washing and conditioning, and not touching it till dry. Then, a very light oiling after. I would also suggest getting a filtter for yout hard water if you can. Hope you find something that helps!

tanya222
March 3rd, 2011, 10:40 PM
Um, a mayonnaise pack? :shrug:

I don't know if it's been discontinued but Lush used to have a solid shampoo puck for hard water, called, ironically, "Hard". You might try searching for it on ebay, someone was selling one not too long ago.

I'm curious - how precisely do you 'chelate' your hair?

sweet&sourkiwi
March 3rd, 2011, 10:42 PM
I have clarified and chelated and while I do think it helped overall...my hair is still DRRYYY as a desert.

I would say yes to porous...from microfibre-towel damp it takes me about 30-40 minutes to air dry, sometimes only 20. I have noticed it takes a little longer when I CO...

sweet&sourkiwi
March 3rd, 2011, 10:44 PM
Good call on the Hard water shampoo, I will look into that!

Chelating is not as hard as it sounds...I have Joico K-Pak chelating shampoo, and you literally just shampoo your hair. That's it! It will get you squeaky, squeaky clean though—think stripped. However, I think getting off the minerals helps in the long run, so it's worth it!

Putting mayo in my hair sounds pretty icky...but if it fixes the problem...better put my big girl pants on. :) Thanks.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 3rd, 2011, 10:45 PM
Oh, and the chelating is like a once-a-month kind of thing, if not even less often...it says on the bottle its approved for weekly use but yikes its harsh.

tanya222
March 3rd, 2011, 10:51 PM
Good call on the Hard water shampoo, I will look into that!

Chelating is not as hard as it sounds...I have Joico K-Pak chelating shampoo, and you literally just shampoo your hair. That's it! It will get you squeaky, squeaky clean though—think stripped. However, I think getting off the minerals helps in the long run, so it's worth it!

Putting mayo in my hair sounds pretty icky...but if it fixes the problem...better put my big girl pants on. :) Thanks.

Hm, thanks for the info, I've never heard of chelating hair before, I always think of chelation being only for internal cleansing of metals, toxins, etc... by the sound of it I don't think I'd wanna do that to my hair! Yeah, once in a while I slather in some mayo and let it percolate for a bit while I soak in the bath, then wash it out. I swear I can feel a difference afterwards, with those oils from it!

Good luck, wish I could help more!:)

rena
March 3rd, 2011, 10:53 PM
I edited my post after re-reading and seeing that you did already try the things I was suggesting :).

sweet&sourkiwi
March 3rd, 2011, 10:56 PM
Mayo it may be! And I'll probably try the coating of Triple Nutrition and light oiling suggested above...

I think you would probably know if you needed to chelate. Our water is so hard it beads up on the walls and when the droplets evaporate, there is a visible mineral deposit left behind. :brains: You can see where the sink has leaked in the past and left a mineral trail, no amount of scrubbing with any chemical removes it (and yeah, I tried the chelating shampoo on a whim. :) ) Soaking dishes get coated in a lime crust if left too long. Old building, old pipes!

Thank your lucky stars and enjoy the mayo!

sweet&sourkiwi
March 3rd, 2011, 10:57 PM
@Rena - no worries! I'm sure your haste was only because you were rushing to my aid. :) Thanks for the suggestions!

sycamoreboutiqu
March 3rd, 2011, 11:10 PM
What about trying to wash in distilled or purified water ? I realize this would be way more expensive then tap water - but maybe a final rinse with the clarified water would prevent some of these minerals from depositing.

Sounds like you definitely have a deposit problem if your water is THAT bad.

We have crappy water too - have to have 2 water heaters - one just to remove the rust particles.

Merkaba
March 3rd, 2011, 11:13 PM
Clarify! Then Try Again!

Lianna
March 4th, 2011, 12:07 AM
Protein treatments help with porous hair, a little egg might do wonders. Also, stretching washes isn't good for everybody, some people even get less dry hair from the more frequent conditioning. I know I had overconditioning when I CO'd everyday!

julliams
March 4th, 2011, 12:09 AM
Have you tried a coconut soak? I use a can of lite coconut milk (about a third of a can does thick BSL hair) I start with dry hair. I drizzle the milk through my hair over the bath with a large dish underneath so I can catch the drips and put them back in my hair. Once it's all in there and soaking, I just put it in a bun and go for a walk or watch tv or something with a towel over my neck as it will continue to drip.

After about an hour I just wash and condition as normal. I always notice how soft and moisturised it is afterwards. Never fails to make a difference for me.

Just make sure you use lite coconut milk. I haven't tried it but the full cream is supposed to be hard to wash out. I've never had a problem with the lite stuff.

oktobergoud
March 4th, 2011, 02:09 AM
I have the same thing, then again, my hair used to be WHITE (from bleach) so it's damaged. I've tried everything but I realized that my hair just needs cones! So I'm going back to cones (and probably SLS as well, to prevent build-up).
Further than that, I don't have any ideas, sorry!

Marjolein
March 4th, 2011, 02:21 AM
You migth want to carry around a little mister bottle, so you can mist your hair a few times a day. You can also try wet bunning. That way the hair inside the bun will keep it's moisture much longer. You might even want to cover the wet bun with a (moist) scarf as an extra protection against sun and heat.

haibane
March 4th, 2011, 02:39 AM
What has helped my fine, dry hair most is misting it. I mist twice a day with water with a tiny bit of conditioner (usually triple nutrition) and a tiny bit of oil (usually coconut) in it.
If you have hard water distilled water would probably be best for misting.

pepperminttea
March 4th, 2011, 02:45 AM
Seeing as you have hard water, have you tried an apple cider vinegar (ACV) rinse at the end of your shower? 2-3 tablespoons of ACV in 8 liquid oz. of water, in an old squeezy bottle. Use it as the very last thing, after washing, conditioning, and any other showerly duties. Squeeze it over your roots and length, and then rinse out, and turn off the shower. :) At that dilution, the smell completely dissipates when the hair dries. You can mess with the dilution ratio, but that's a good one to start with; whatever you do, don't use it undiluted!

Incidentally, is your hair dyed or processed (permed, etc.)? When I was dealing with dyed length, boy was that thirsty! Felt like I couldn't give that enough moisture, it just drank everything up. And given that it's winter (in the northern hemisphere, at least), that probably isn't helping either. Hope you can find something to help though. :)

NouvelleNymphe2
March 4th, 2011, 02:57 AM
perhaps do a search for "porous hair." i just did one really quick and got a lot of hits. there was an interesting debate about using steam (or heat from a wrapped and blow dried conditioning treatment) to help more moisture (specifically protein) seep in (better than during a regular deep conditioning) and bind to the hair structure. after it suggests using an acid or vinegar rinse to close the hair shaft. then a bbb to smooth down the cuticle. hmmm......

Monkie
March 4th, 2011, 06:30 AM
If you think the hard water situation is not helping, maybe a filter on your shower head? Those do exist.

Anje
March 4th, 2011, 06:41 AM
I think it may be time to break out the protein. It's drying for a lot of people, but it also can help moisture stick to hair. (Weird, I know.)

I've heard good things about Aphogee and K-Pak's protein treatments, so it's probably a good place to start. You probably will want to follow it up with a moisture treatment.

ETA: What's your hair history? If you've had perms or chemical colors (particularly if you've gone lighter), it's all the more likely that your hair needs protein.

ETA2, totally off-topic: Monkie, is the Monkie a Snowshoe? I have two of them myself.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 4th, 2011, 10:41 AM
Everybody...protein is the one thing that I've cut since starting LHC and have not tried so that may be it! I will let you know how it goes...good thoughts all, thank you!

I am thinking a light protein treatment of some kind for starters, any recommendations? I think I just want to try a little pack if possible before investing in a $10 bottle of anything... I do have a light quinoa-protein conditioner in the closet, but it's not a treatment or anything...

I am growing out some highlights, and recovering from hair dryers and curling irons and bad brushing habits but I've never dyed my hair and haven't permed in 14+ years...hair has been shedding/breaking like crazy for over 2 years and I don't know how there can even be anything left! Whenever I go home and take a shower one of my parents runs out of the bathroom to exclaim over how much hair I've lost and how I must go to the doctor but my blood tests are all good. :(

sweet&sourkiwi
March 4th, 2011, 10:44 AM
@juliamms...I have not tried a coconut soak! What does it do?

sweet&sourkiwi
March 4th, 2011, 11:11 AM
I have tried vinegar but no appreciable difference...I am realizing that the day I chelate is the only time my hair looks okay, and that the chelating shampoo has protein (keratin) in it! So now I'm thinking that's it...and once I get the protein back in maybe some of these other suggestions WOULD make a difference! (There is the hard water thing, but I'm guessing it doesn't build up after 1 day...and the next wash after chelating never looks as good. :()

So, now taking any protein treatment suggestions! :) I have a little time Sunday, I'll let you know how it goes!

And yes, a shower filter would be brilliant! Savin' up...

spidermom
March 4th, 2011, 11:37 AM
After washing and conditioning while hair is still wet, apply a small amount of oil, then a coney serum such as CHI Silk Infusion. That routine worked very well for me while I was in the Caribbean heat, sun, and sea recently. My ends didn't dry out. Yay!

MissCoco
March 4th, 2011, 12:29 PM
Maybe you should try a recipe with protein and honey in it? Honey is a humectant, which means it absorbs moisture and keeps it in. I would try making a recipe with something like 1-2 eggs, 1 large spoonful of milk (cow's milk or coconut milk), olive oil, coconut oil and 3 tablespoons of honey (or however much you need). Mix it all together, heat it up (I use boiling water in the sink) and apply it carefully. Leave on for 5 hrs+ and it should help. Use an ACV rinse afterwards, maybe. Good luck! :flower:

sweet&sourkiwi
March 5th, 2011, 04:17 PM
In case anyone else in a similar situation (I hope not...I wouldn't wish this on anyone!) is following this, I have an update, albeit not an exciting one:

I did an SLS-free shampoo (a new purchase as CO is getting to be too time consuming), then the Ion Reconstructor treatment, which features Hydrolyzed Keratin, left it on for 30 minutes, and followed with a 1 hour SMT of Biolage Balm, honey, and aloe. Air dried and—

Results are just okay. :yawn: I would say maybe 20% improved? I did feel like the hair was able to grab a little more moisture from the SMT (as opposed to rinsing clean) but man I was hoping for some wow (especially after jumping in and out of the shower 3 times today, that's a bit of a time suck!)

So, conclusions: If its a protein issue, maybe it wasn't enough proteins, either my 99c pack of Ion is a crappy keratin treatment and I need a better keratin treatment, or I need veggie proteins.

Next wash, I will try the a "lighter" ION protein pack with veggie proteins, finish with a quinoa protein conditioner, and maybe dig my wheat protein spray (B&B Thickening) out of the closet. I think that will end the question of whether it's a protein deficiency.

(One other thought—I've been following every wash with a damp application of just a drop of coconut oil or shea butter...could this possibly be a no-no?)

And if it's not a protein deficiency after all...I may go back to cones, folks. That CHI silk stuff is sounding pretty magical right about now.

jaine
March 5th, 2011, 06:01 PM
If you think the hard water situation is not helping, maybe a filter on your shower head? Those do exist.

I second this ... my hair and skin are so much happier with a shower filter. (Although I have pretty soft water in my area so the benefit is mostly for my skin which is very irritated by chlorine - I have heard they do wonders for hair in hard water areas too.)

Look for one that removes more than just chlorine - I have this one and I like it a lot and it's relatively inexpensive: http://www.amazon.com/April-Shower-Filter-Removes-Chlorine/dp/B000GWI6VC/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1299373175&sr=8-4

sweet&sourkiwi
March 5th, 2011, 07:13 PM
Thank you Jaine! The other fun fact is that my shower is really just a "euro-shower" tied to the wall...in 1918 when the building was built I guess they didn't have showers! I will have to figure out how to jury-rig something on top of the already jury-rigged-ness...but I'm sure it will be worth it!

julliams
March 5th, 2011, 07:32 PM
@juliamms...I have not tried a coconut soak! What does it do?

You know, I really don't know exactly what it does....but I know it makes my hair feel softer and more moisturised. Scientifically I couldn't tell you. For around $2.50 a can, it's worth a try since you can get three treatments out of it.

There was someone else on this forum that had similar moisture issues, tried it and was very impressed.

I think from my experience, you can't expect anything to work immediately. I think it took my hair about 6 months or so to accept my moisture treatments and actually become more moisturised looking. Any time I went to a hairdresser they would always tell me my hair was dry and recommend this and that. The last time I went in March 2010, my stylist told me that my hair was healthy and didn't need anything in particular. That's a first for me so it proved to me that my hair was finally moisturised.

I had been doing a bunch of SMT's about once a week and coconut soaks every other week. I also used coconut oil and jojoba oil in my hair. At first I cut out cones so maybe that might have helped to get the moisture in there??? But I was finding that my splits were getting worse so I brought cones back and my hair is just so happy now.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 5th, 2011, 07:54 PM
You're right, for $2.50 a can I really should give the coconut milk a shot! :)

Do you still do soaks and SMTs now that you are back on cones? You can probably get them to work if it's right after a shampoo but before the cone application...yes?

I know, I shouldn't have expected super dramatic results...but I felt like if my hair was starving for protein and then I gave it a taste it would have a BIT more of a turnaround! It's just such a dramatic difference when I do the monthly chelate with the K-PAK, I thought it would be more like that. Sniff.

I saw somewhere else someone described their hair as a cotton candy texture, that's really where mine has gotten to be from the ears down...like a fluffy (and not in a good way) tangled cloud, more of a mass then individual hairs lined up. It just wasn't like this when I was on a more conventional SLS, cone, and protein routine...maybe it is time to go back.

csm--carla
March 6th, 2011, 11:28 AM
What helped my coarse dry hair more than anything--after avoiding them for YEARS because of thinking they were BAD--was silicones(!) in the products that I use.

getoffmyskittle
March 6th, 2011, 11:30 AM
Is your hair damaged?

ETA: Ah, I've found your post where you said it is. Okay, um, when I came here I was in the same boat. I barely even heat styled but I was a really horrible brusher, so my hair was really damaged. I could never get that part of my hair moisturized. I had to grow/cut it all out. Using lots of coconut oil and COing in that time helped, and so did things like mayo treatments, but yeah... it never was really healthy.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 6th, 2011, 09:25 PM
@Getoffmyskittle... (sounds of wimpering at thought of cutting) Yes, damaged. I was never a big flat ironer (hair is flat enough!) but I did blow dry 3-4 times a week and heat curl off and on. And yes, I never paid attention to how I was brushing my hair, or what I was brushing it with...so it's prolly damaged a lot like yours was!

I would have to cut off at chin to get into "good hair", though, which is just not happening.

As the more popular LHC products (conditioner only, no cones or proteins, etc.) seem to be revealing more and more damage (and possibly facilitating more breakage/tangling as this weakness is revealed), I'm thinking a better approach at this time may be to stick with the air-drying and tangle teezer, and get back to the dark side of cones and, hand in hand with that, cone-removing SLS. Wondering how long you can let cones build up before you have to SLS them off, but I'm guessing like most things hair-related: depends on what your hair likes!

sweet&sourkiwi
March 6th, 2011, 09:26 PM
ps Juliams, I have the coconut milk! 99c! Let you know how it goes. :)

getoffmyskittle
March 6th, 2011, 10:05 PM
@Getoffmyskittle... (sounds of wimpering at thought of cutting) Yes, damaged. I was never a big flat ironer (hair is flat enough!) but I did blow dry 3-4 times a week and heat curl off and on. And yes, I never paid attention to how I was brushing my hair, or what I was brushing it with...so it's prolly damaged a lot like yours was!

I would have to cut off at chin to get into "good hair", though, which is just not happening.

As the more popular LHC products (conditioner only, no cones or proteins, etc.) seem to be revealing more and more damage (and possibly facilitating more breakage/tangling as this weakness is revealed), I'm thinking a better approach at this time may be to stick with the air-drying and tangle teezer, and get back to the dark side of cones and, hand in hand with that, cone-removing SLS. Wondering how long you can let cones build up before you have to SLS them off, but I'm guessing like most things hair-related: depends on what your hair likes!

I didn't either. I had long pretty hair before I had long, entirely healthy and moisturized hair. It'll keep getting better, don't worry. :)

Yes, if I were you, I'd stick with cones for now. I used them for ages, and I'm only not using them now by incident, not design. I also was able to CO and use cones and never clarify them out, but my hair can be weird like that. Also -- why no proteins? It can be great for some people. I love occasional protein treatments. And I seem to recall COing a lot with those V05 protein conditioner thingies... gosh, they don't even make them any more (I'm old)... some strawberry thing with milk protein, and Suave Milk and Honey, which also had protein. You just have to follow it with moisture.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 7th, 2011, 09:58 AM
Thanks Skittle! The protein ban was because I thought maybe my dryness was coming from a protein overload...but three-four months off proteins, and only looking worse, I just don't think that's the case.

The plan now is to try one more protein-intensive treatment (coconut milk soak, CO-wash off, protein conditioner, club-soda-rinse, distilled water rinse, and seal with coconut oil/shea butter) and if that doesn't show at least some improvement...run back to cones before any more hair breaks off!

Thanks for the advice...I don't mind cones so much but I really don't want to have to SLS them off every wash, because I do think that is harsh. It sounds like you were able to use them and avoid SLS so it's worth a try! Don't know if it will work on my baby-fine strands...they do seem to build up quickly...but certainly worth a shot.

Kaijah
March 7th, 2011, 10:13 AM
I don't have much in the way of advice to add - you've all ready heard most of the ideas I've heard. I started here with horrifically dry hair, and just constantly did moisture treatments and put oils and butters on my damp hair. Bunned/braided while damp. It took a few months, but my hair did turn around. Mine was a combo of straightener damage, hard water, and protein sensitivity though.

I just want to add that all cones are removable with coco betaine - and there are a ton of gentle shampoos with that as the major surfactant. Also, some are removable with cowashing. What's the Scoop on Silicones? (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/whats-the-scoop-on-silicones)

sweet&sourkiwi
March 7th, 2011, 10:41 AM
I just want to add that all cones are removable with coco betaine - and there are a ton of gentle shampoos with that as the major surfactant. Also, some are removable with cowashing. What's the Scoop on Silicones? (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/whats-the-scoop-on-silicones)

Ooh, this is really good to know!! I just bought a tiny bottle of Giovanni 50/50 (which contains coc-betaine) from the bulk section since CO-wash takes me forever, so it's sounding like maybe I could go back on cones and not have to go on SLS! That...would be awesome. Thanks for the tidbit!

Debra83
March 7th, 2011, 11:14 AM
Once in awhile, I use some of the after colour conditioner that comes in the Herbal Essence dye box, it's called "continuous conditioning gloss", and if my hair had any hint of dryness, this totally moisturizes it and makes it soft and silky.

Pre LHC though, when I dyed my hair to death, I found using it too often wouldn't help. Now, I use it about once or twice a month. If it ever runs out, I'll have to go by a dye box just to get the conditioner in it!!!

Tigermama
March 7th, 2011, 11:33 AM
I like to place straight castor oil on my ends a few times per week at night, then wash out in the morning. It is super thick and sticky, but absorbs awesomely by morning. It makes the ends plump up and super soft! Have noticed way less dryness on the ends with this. The only thing is that I have to apply gently to avoid pulling at the fragile ends, and hide them after so they dont stick to anything else!

firicia
March 7th, 2011, 11:47 AM
Hey, I am a very big newbie here but would like to say if you are back to using cones (still even learning about that myself) then there is a product that might help you out.

K-Pak Reconstruct "deep-penetrating reconstructor"

It's definitely not as natural as egg, but as someone at the very start of this journey I will say this helped my hair immensely.

Basically I had been using Tressume because it was cheap. I figured because I was done dying my hair any old shampoo and conditioner would work. Well I ended up having to chop off about 3 inches after only 3 months of use due to a massive wax build up which completely destroyed the ends of my hair. (in the end this was a good thing which led to me looking for information and ending up here)

I had used this deep conditioner before, so I bought some, did a shampoo with the k-pak chelating shampoo (again newbie here not sure how good this was), and then put in the deep conditioner. I left it in for as long as I could in the shower (about 10 mins) even though the advice I have been given on this product before was do it once a week for at least 20 mins, the longer the better time wise just make sure not to do it too often (no more than twice a week supposedly).

The result? Well I got the bad shampoo off my hair, my hair responded so well I started to think maybe that length could have been saved. It's been about 4 weeks now and I am happy with how my hair is acting.

I use the k-pak normal shampoo and conditioner for now as it is working for my hair, as I learn more I will experiment more as well.

At night even tho I don't have super long hair I am now braiding it, and putting a tiny bit of coconut oil on the ends before bedtime. I have also just this month just given up heat styling, mainly I was just using a blow dryer. As I gain more knowledge I would like to become more natural with the products I use, but for now I have these big bottles of k-pak and they don't seem to be impacting my hair negatively at all so I am going to use them up.

Good luck with your hair, keep in mind it takes time to see results sometimes.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 7th, 2011, 01:32 PM
Faricia, thank you! I have been eyeballing the Joico Reconstructor knock-off from Sally's, it's only $5-6 for a whole bottle (as well as considering the real deal). I already have the real Joico Chelating shampoo and it's good stuff for sure...unfortunately the results from it only seem to last until my next wash or two! Makes sense since apparently proteins have to be "put in" each time...

I found a hair science book and have been researching proteins + keratins, apparently "quadramine" ones are the only kind of keratins that can really do much for the hair. I noticed the actual (not knockoff) Joico products do have quadraminated (?) ones, whereas the cheap-o keratin treatment pack I grabbed at Sally's last week did not. I wonder if that's why the Chelating shampoo works so well and the little protein pack did nothing?

EDIT: Nope, I read that book wrong. They were saying "quaternized" not "quadramine" were the more effective proteins, but I don't think they are available commercially.

Starting to wish I had more science sense when it comes to all these hair ingredients!

Athena's Owl
March 7th, 2011, 01:41 PM
HEEEEELLLP! (please. :)

It is extremely dry where I live and I have harsh, hard water. I need to somehow infuse my hair with a TON of moisture! Right now! Even after SMT it feels parched, tangly and brittle (albeit a little less so?). What could I be doing wrong?


Answer: using humectants.

Stop.

I live in a region where it never, NEVER gets moist enough to use humectants and it also has hard water. I avoid humectants as much as I possibly can in all of my hair products. Problem solved.

getoffmyskittle
March 7th, 2011, 02:05 PM
Thanks Skittle! The protein ban was because I thought maybe my dryness was coming from a protein overload...but three-four months off proteins, and only looking worse, I just don't think that's the case.

The plan now is to try one more protein-intensive treatment (coconut milk soak, CO-wash off, protein conditioner, club-soda-rinse, distilled water rinse, and seal with coconut oil/shea butter) and if that doesn't show at least some improvement...run back to cones before any more hair breaks off!

Thanks for the advice...I don't mind cones so much but I really don't want to have to SLS them off every wash, because I do think that is harsh. It sounds like you were able to use them and avoid SLS so it's worth a try! Don't know if it will work on my baby-fine strands...they do seem to build up quickly...but certainly worth a shot.

Yes, I was SLS free for a long, long time -- years. Now I like SLS, I think it gets an undeserved bum rap. I use Head and Shoulders 2-3 times a week (which has three sulfates, I think), and I don't have split ends. I don't even CWC, just S&C now. I only put the shampoo on my scalp, and sometimes I mix it with oil, per ktani's method. Sulfate-free shampoo just does not work for me, my scalp goes crazy with itching and shedding. :shrug: Do you have bad experiences with it, or are you just trying to avoid it because that's sort of the advice given around here?

Anje
March 7th, 2011, 02:58 PM
I think the fairly mainstream LHC ideas of "no silicone, no protein" come from the fact that a lot of us longtimers have managed to get our hair to the point where it's fairly healthy. For a lot of people, healthy hair doesn't really need much protein, and too much makes it angry. I know it makes mine angry. But if you have naturally porous hair or have damaged it chemically or with heat or with rough handling, you probably need some of the holes in the cuticle filled in with protein. Similarly, hair that's naturally on the slippery side doesn't necessarily need silicone or benefit from it, and the stuff can be drying for some of us, particularly as it builds up to levels that seal out moisture.

There's a flip side to all this. Some people do better with protein, even lots of protein. Some do better if they have silicones. Some people need their scalps to be super-clean, while other scalps prefer to be a bit greasy. Some of us love humectants, and some find them drying.

The moral of the story: While it helps to compare to others' experiences, it's YOUR hair. Listen to what works best for it.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 7th, 2011, 05:32 PM
Answer: using humectants.

Stop.

I live in a region where it never, NEVER gets moist enough to use humectants and it also has hard water. I avoid humectants as much as I possibly can in all of my hair products. Problem solved.

Sorry to be obtuse, but are the oils the humectants? I also live in Drysville! I only put them on wet hair (well, usually), with the thinking that if the hair is wet then the moisture will get sealed in...? I'm a little confused, can you elaborate? Thank you!

sweet&sourkiwi
March 7th, 2011, 05:56 PM
Yes, I was SLS free for a long, long time -- years. Now I like SLS, I think it gets an undeserved bum rap. I use Head and Shoulders 2-3 times a week (which has three sulfates, I think), and I don't have split ends. I don't even CWC, just S&C now. I only put the shampoo on my scalp, and sometimes I mix it with oil, per ktani's method. Sulfate-free shampoo just does not work for me, my scalp goes crazy with itching and shedding. :shrug: Do you have bad experiences with it, or are you just trying to avoid it because that's sort of the advice given around here?

More because it's the kind of advice given around here, and I figured it was more drying than milder cleansers. Also, I had read that SLS increased shedding and like I said, I am losing insane amounts of hair. After one shower my bathroom is covered in stray hairs and looks like I never clean it. Honestly, though, my shedding hasn't even slowed down since leaving SLS.

I have used an SLS free shampoo in the past that I loved (now discontinued, grrr)—the David Babaii amplifying shampoo with Disodium Laureth Sulfosuccinate and Cocamidopropyl Betaine.

Thanks for the advice!

sweet&sourkiwi
March 7th, 2011, 06:05 PM
I think the fairly mainstream LHC ideas of "no silicone, no protein" come from the fact that a lot of us longtimers have managed to get our hair to the point where it's fairly healthy. For a lot of people, healthy hair doesn't really need much protein, and too much makes it angry. I know it makes mine angry. But if you have naturally porous hair or have damaged it chemically or with heat or with rough handling, you probably need some of the holes in the cuticle filled in with protein. Similarly, hair that's naturally on the slippery side doesn't necessarily need silicone or benefit from it, and the stuff can be drying for some of us, particularly as it builds up to levels that seal out moisture.

There's a flip side to all this. Some people do better with protein, even lots of protein. Some do better if they have silicones. Some people need their scalps to be super-clean, while other scalps prefer to be a bit greasy. Some of us love humectants, and some find them drying.

The moral of the story: While it helps to compare to others' experiences, it's YOUR hair. Listen to what works best for it.

Thanks, this is helpful! (I haven't figured out how to break up quotes yet so bear with me...) The first part makes a lot more sense now—healthy hair can thrive under no cones/proteins conditions, where as my damaged hair struggles. But do you go back to cones to get it to that healthy level, or do you have to start fresh for the hair to ever be "really" healthy (as opposed to just "looking" healthy with cones, which mine used to a few years ago.)

I am definitely all about comparing experiences at this point...because lately NOTHING has been working for my hair! I'm gradually learning to be able to "listen" to it better and see what sorts of things make it more or less grumpy...but these days it's a range between "meh" and "ack" ... never happy or even mildly amused. (is there a "sigh" emoticon?) It's harder to see the trends than I thought, especially since my hair was so well behaved for years and years and I thought I "knew" what it liked! Well, things change, water changes, hormones change, formulations change, and now I feel like I just don't know how to take care of it...so thank you all for your great suggestions!

Kaijah
March 7th, 2011, 07:06 PM
Sorry to be obtuse, but are the oils the humectants? I also live in Drysville! I only put them on wet hair (well, usually), with the thinking that if the hair is wet then the moisture will get sealed in...? I'm a little confused, can you elaborate? Thank you!

Oils are just oils. :) Sometimes referred to as sealants/sealers like you said.
Humectants are things that attract water - the glycols (propylene glycol, butylene glycol, capryl glycol, etc.), glycerin, honey, sodium PCA, hyaluronic acid, panthenol, glycogen sugars - sorbitol, glucose, fructose, some hydrolyzed proteins, and the silicone copolyols. There are others... but those are most common, I think. I'm sure I missed some.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 7th, 2011, 09:28 PM
Oils are just oils. :) Sometimes referred to as sealants/sealers like you said.
Humectants are things that attract water - the glycols (propylene glycol, butylene glycol, capryl glycol, etc.), glycerin, honey, sodium PCA, hyaluronic acid, panthenol, glycogen sugars - sorbitol, glucose, fructose, some hydrolyzed proteins, and the silicone copolyols. There are others... but those are most common, I think. I'm sure I missed some.


Ahhh....my Biolage Balm is full of those things glycoly things! I wonder if that's why SMTs don't really do much for me? So...if you live in dry weather, you aren't supposed to use humectants? Here I thought I was sealing dampness in...

sweet&sourkiwi
March 8th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Turns out...every cone-free conditioner I own is packed with humectants...and in our climate, no doubt the moisture is just racing out of my hair!

So, today, I did a coconut milk soak. Then I found a light-protein conditioner sample that was humectant-free in the depths of storage...did a low-poo and followed with the conditioner...acv rinsed, rinsed with distilled water...I knew I should call it good but my hair was feeling so dry and tangly and awful that I caved in and slathered on a lightly coney conditioner. My hair practically ate it. So I dug further in storage and found a coney serum that I had barely ever used and glopped it on. Hair felt super crunchy as it was drying and I was wondering if I'd made a mistake...

...but once it was dry it was soft and a lot more hair-like than it has looked in awhile. It feels nicer, in a totally fake and coated kind of way. I'm not just saying that because I know it's fake, either...you can tell it's not really healthy hair by feel. But maybe I can finally lock in some moisture with cones and rehab it back to life!

I really want the more natural haircare methods to work, I would love to just make my own shampoo and conditioner and avoid the toxins and strain on environment. But my hair is frying away on the more natural stuff. Maybe when it's healthier this will work.

So, I went on a small shopping spree and bought knockoffs of the Chi Silk, the Redken Anti-snap, the Joico Reconstructor and a coney condish without humectants. Already tried the tiniest drop of the Chi Silk...whoa. Potent. Giving it a couple days to chill out and then we'll start experimenting with cones! Some of this stuff will probably be going back, but now I'm armed. :)

jojo
March 8th, 2011, 05:50 PM
The best product which i have found, which as truely moisturised my hair is tigi moisture maniac its coneless too

Dark40
March 8th, 2011, 06:22 PM
Mayo it may be! And I'll probably try the coating of Triple Nutrition and light oiling suggested above...

I think you would probably know if you needed to chelate. Our water is so hard it beads up on the walls and when the droplets evaporate, there is a visible mineral deposit left behind. :brains: You can see where the sink has leaked in the past and left a mineral trail, no amount of scrubbing with any chemical removes it (and yeah, I tried the chelating shampoo on a whim. :) ) Soaking dishes get coated in a lime crust if left too long. Old building, old pipes!

Thank your lucky stars and enjoy the mayo!
I think you should try Jojoba oil from the ears down after washing. That will tame the ends, and help with the dryness. I hope I've helped.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 8th, 2011, 06:35 PM
Thank you! I have a few coneless, humectant-y conditioners currently so I need to pare down the stash a bit first... but I will remember your recommendation!

And as for jojoba, yep, tried that too! I didn't really notice a change either way. I think next I'm going to try to "reconstruct" with the Joico and see if that helps me hang onto some more moisture, then seal with coconut and shea.

Afterwards, I may even break into some of the coney stuff that I bought today, but I don't want to change too much at once...and I already think I've changed too much too fast!

julliams
March 9th, 2011, 04:50 AM
Try changing one thing at a time. When you come at the problem from all sides you don't really know what exactly is working.

Working through ideas slowly will help you to pinpoint what works and what doesn't.

You asked if I continue with treatments now that I use cones? Absolutely but I do them a little less often and I clarify before doing a big treatment (with exception to the coconut soak because it goes on before the shampoo).

Having said this, I change up my products every time I wash my hair. Some days my hair is perfect, other days it looks pretty average. It can be the weather that affects it, rainy, overly hot - you name it.

I take photos of my hair when it looks it's best, but I have average hair days too like anyone else - that's when my hair goes up.

I remember when I first joined LHC I was overwhelmed with all the different things I could try and I wanted to try everything NOW. I don't think my hair thanked me for it at all. It almost seemed drier. It may have been my hair, or it may have been my expectations. It was when I settled down a bit and experimented in slow motion (basically left my hair alone) that it started to come good. If you can change your expectation and just let your hair evolve into what it's supposed to be, it can become it's best.

It honestly takes time. Make a long term goal (length or quality or whatever) and keep that in mind. I'm glad to hear that you tried the coconut soak. If you try it again, use it with your favourite combo of shampoo, conditioner and leave it and see how it goes. I probably do it once every couple of months now but I used to do it weekly.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 9th, 2011, 10:14 AM
Thank you Juliams, excellent advice and I do *know* better. It's just really, really hard not to want to try anything and everything to fix it now when so much is breaking and it seems to be literally falling apart. It's not just a bad hair day, it's like my hair is completely giving up and out. I mentioned to my boyfriend that I thought I had lost about a third of my hair since we started dating two years ago and he reluctantly agreed.

The only other time I've ever had such a hard time with my hair is when I got a perm in junior high and hairs started jumping ship.

I got on this forum to try to fix whatever is wrong, but I still am not sure what's causing it. It's been a gradual decline for the last 2 or so years with a dramatic slide in the past 6-8 months. I did move from a soft water area to some of the harshest water in the states 5 years ago, but other than that my routine did not change appreciably before studying LHC pre-Christmas. I tried a sulfate-free shampoo for awhile that I loved, and at a different time a cone-free condish, but my routine was pretty typical overall: volumnizing SLS shampoo, cone conditioner, thickening spray, blowdry and brush. Occasional flat iron, occassional curlers. Same story for probably 15 years. No huge problems.

As I said above, since starting LHC I've tried many things, a few, like CO and oils, for months, with occasional experiments like SMTs, but my hair has accelerated its decline. I wonder if a part of that is humectants minus cones plus dry weather equals moisture running out of my hair.

I've had the bloodwork done, I'm fine there. I will be looking for a shower filter soon.

You are most definitely right, I need to slow down! I think I will chelate, try the reconstructor, and then start using up some of my stash, gradually adding and subtracting new elements to the routine. At this point my hair is probably just more confused than anything.

sweet&sourkiwi
March 9th, 2011, 10:23 AM
Oh, and my goals! Why not write them down...

I've decided length is not the most important thing right now. First I'd like to get the shedding and breaking to a less alarming level. I think quitting blow drying, my Tangle Teezer and my comb are a great place to start.

Then, I'd like to grow back in the damage. I have hairs that are broken off at about 6 inches, obviously I will look thicker at the hemline once they grow back. I will probably not cut above APL while this is happening, maybe an inch or two above at the absolute most.

Once this happens, I would love to see how long my hair can really grow. In the past it's stalled before BSL. BSL would be great, and even 6 inches beyond. My hair is so fine and there is so little of it I can't picture it looking good to waist, but maybe when it's healthier I will change my mind.

Debra83
March 9th, 2011, 03:20 PM
Geez! I can't believe I forgot to add this thread...sorry! It's coneless and has 3 different oils in it at least.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=50881

sweet&sourkiwi
March 9th, 2011, 03:53 PM
Thank you Debra! I actually have the much exalted Triple Nooch...It seemed dreamy at first but now I think the humectants in it are ripping the moisture OUT of my hair! We live in a very very dry climate and it's also sub zero many days, so things up here just don't work like they are supposed to!

sweet&sourkiwi
March 9th, 2011, 03:54 PM
However, it looks like the Triple Nutrition is working BEAUTIFULLY on you! :)