PDA

View Full Version : Who's rockin' some Jewish hair?



LisaMonster
February 15th, 2011, 11:26 AM
Read this article on Jewlicious today about embracing your curls
http://www.jewlicious.com/2011/02/sisters-enough-already-with-this-curl-hating-crap/

Just wondering how many of those with "Jewish hair" we have around here :)



Edited to both clarify that I am specifically referring to the hair of those having the ancestry of the Ashkenazic Jewish race, not the Jewish religion and to adjust wording to be more sensitive.

Avital88
February 15th, 2011, 11:57 AM
I havent read the article yet,im online on my phone so loading takes long.
But let me raise my hand.
I have wurls but since i use henna they are quite easy to tame. If i brush my hair at least the top of my hair is straight.
If uncombed they are there, i like my hair straight more..but i always let my wurls and curls be there in Israel :)

Avital88
February 15th, 2011, 12:15 PM
Ive read the article, it has a good point. But still its hard to embrace curls they are always different. At least mine are,it looks more messy, since im not using heat i always pull my hair straight while wet and while dry i brush it straight or at least try to haha.
Its funny because i do think jews have more frizz at least everybody i know has the typical jewish frizz i have and so has my mum and brother(his curls are awesome though )
We should all embrace no matter what religion or origion.

Mountaingrrl
February 15th, 2011, 01:09 PM
Yep, rocking Jewish wurls here! My hair texture definitely looks better long, too.

see_turtle
February 15th, 2011, 01:59 PM
I am half Jewish.My mother is a WASP. My hair tends to be big but it's not curly at all. I have MUCH more body and hair than my mother does. My fiance says when we first met be correctly assumed my heritage because of my hair. :)

Nastasia
February 15th, 2011, 03:55 PM
I'm rockin' my extremely straight Jewish hair. Good thing I have the Jewish nose, or I might look like a goy :D.

Alaia
February 15th, 2011, 04:03 PM
:lol:

So I'm Jewish (technically) and my hair is... straight? ;)

kitschy
February 15th, 2011, 04:04 PM
I'm rockin some curls, but I'm not sure if my heritage is Jewish.

Islandgrrl
February 15th, 2011, 04:08 PM
I'm sorry, but I find this whole thread to be really offensive.

kwaniesiam
February 15th, 2011, 04:11 PM
I'm sorry, but I find this whole thread to be really offensive.

:shrug: I don't see it to be any different from a thread discussing black or any other kind of "ethnic" hair.

LisaMonster
February 15th, 2011, 04:11 PM
I'm sorry, but I find this whole thread to be really offensive.

What exactly are you offended by?

I'm offended by the idea that I shouldn't be allowed to embrace and celebrate a part of my heritage with others who share it.

Islandgrrl
February 15th, 2011, 04:27 PM
Jew hair? Jewylocks? Really?

Have you ever been the target of anti-Semitism? Have you ever been spat on because you're a Jew? Has anyone ever asked to see your "Jew-horns?" Have you ever lost a job because you are a Jew? Has anyone ever called you a filthy Jew? Has anyone ever told you, "Funny, you don't LOOK Jewish?"

The article supports a ridiculous stereotype.

I didn't say anywhere that you don't should not be
allowed to embrace and celebrate a part of your
heritage with others who share it.

I stand by my right to be offended and to make my opinion public.

LisaMonster
February 15th, 2011, 04:31 PM
Jew hair? Jewylocks? Really?

Have you ever been the target of anti-Semitism? Have you ever been spat on because you're a Jew? Has anyone ever asked to see your "Jew-horns?" Have you ever lost a job because you are a Jew? Has anyone ever called you a filthy Jew? Has anyone ever told you, "Funny, you don't LOOK Jewish?"

The article supports a ridiculous stereotype.

I stand by my right to be offended and to make my opinion public.

So because of the existence of anti-Semitism, I should be ashamed of my JEWISH features?

Obviously, I'm talking about the Jewish race, not the Jewish religion.

squiggyflop
February 15th, 2011, 04:37 PM
*eats popcorn in the corner*..
i would like to chime in, im often very jealous of curlies.. not Jewish though, technically roman catholic.. but to say that im catholic is like saying that an elephant born in a tree is a bird simply because it was born in a tree like a bird is.. anyway, speaking of jewish hair, anyone remember fran in the nanny.. she had some great hair..

Islandgrrl
February 15th, 2011, 04:40 PM
So because of the existence of anti-Semitism, I should be ashamed of my JEWISH features?

Obviously, I'm talking about the Jewish race, not the Jewish religion.

There is no such thing as the Jewish race. Judaism is a religion. Not all Jews share a common ancestry.

LisaMonster
February 15th, 2011, 04:43 PM
There is no such thing as the Jewish race. Judaism is a religion. Not all Jews share a common ancestry.

Explain to me then, why there are Jewish genetic diseases?

Islandgrrl
February 15th, 2011, 04:43 PM
I'd also like to respectfully point out, LisaMonster, that I didn't anywhere, in any way, say you should be ashamed of anything.

Please don't attribute to me statements that I did not make.

Islandgrrl
February 15th, 2011, 04:44 PM
Jewish genetic diseases? Such as?

LisaMonster
February 15th, 2011, 04:44 PM
http://www.jewishgeneticdiseases.org/

Tresses
February 15th, 2011, 04:46 PM
Jewish genetic diseases? Such as?

Tay Sachs, for one. I was tested for it before I had children because my father was an Ashkenazi Jew.

More info: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Health/genetics.html

Tresses
February 15th, 2011, 04:48 PM
Forgot to add: got my wavy/wurly hair from my Jewish father. :D

Lexy
February 15th, 2011, 04:49 PM
Mod hat on

I wanted to let everyone know that I am watching this thread closely. I'm hesitant to shut it down, because I think there is the potential for a good and important discussion, but I want to remind everyone to please be respectful and kind. Think carefully about the words you use and don't make assumptions about others' experiences.

Islandgrrl
February 15th, 2011, 04:56 PM
Although we may be the most recognized group affected by Tay-Sachs, Ashkenazic Jews are not the only carriers of Tay-Sachs mutations.

French Canadians in southeastern Quebec and Cajuns in Louisiana also share an increased prevalence of the mutations that causes Tay-Sachs, at a rate not dissimilar to that of Ashkenazic Jews.

There's a pretty easy explanation for it, too. These groups (as is common in many OTHER groups of people) have historically tended to reproduce within a relatively small gene pool.

So yes, we tend to get Tay-Sachs more frequently than the general population. But the disease is by no means limited to Ashkenazic Jews.

DH and I were both tested, as well. I'm a carrier, he is not.

krissykins
February 15th, 2011, 04:58 PM
Is the religion related to the race in any way? I wonder about this quote from the article:


We didn’t wander the desert for 40 years so that you could hide your hot Semitic look beneath all those hair-straightening treatments.

squiggyflop
February 15th, 2011, 04:58 PM
Explain to me then, why there are Jewish genetic diseases?
i believe i can explain that, you see when a population becomes isolated from breeding outside that particular group diseases and suseptability to disease are spread rapidly through generations of intermarrying between families in a closed population. so then it happens that a large percentage of those families have the genes to become susceptible to or are born with disease.. during the last century jewish populations have become more broad in genetic material let in (marrying people or having children with people who are not descendants of the original populous) this is the reason why now there is not much of a jewish race to speak of anymore.. you see, there is too much outsider (outsider of the original populous) blood mixed in to call it a race anymore.. also there are new converts to judaism every single day. and those converts may very well marry into the jewish community and then the blood is even more diluted.. so no, there isnt much of a race, anymore.. too diluted.. it would be like calling me middle eastern or asian just because i was born with a rare eye coloring at birth that means i have middle eastern or asian ancestors.. but obviously im too pale to identify with those races..
so while there is no positive 'race' anymore the diseases from the original population are still carried in some jewish communities

eta: wow lisamonster, just looked in your albums.. i think you should definitely embrace your curls, they are so pretty.. definitely better curly

Islandgrrl
February 15th, 2011, 05:10 PM
http://www.jewishgeneticdiseases.org/

Again, while these diseases may be found in higher incidence in Jewish populations, they are not limited to Jewish populations. I could address each disease separately if you like. I'd rather not, but I can.

Thank you, LisaMonster, for redacting your initial post. :)

Rapunzelwannabe
February 15th, 2011, 05:22 PM
My mother always said I had 'jewish man curls'- little baby curls by my temples. I always thought it was a rather dumb thing to say since all the depictions of peyos I've seen are much more beautiful solid curls and mine are glorified flizzy cowlicks.

I do apologize if I just offended anybody, but while I'm at it I suppose- I'd love to have Alison Brie, Ginnifer Goodwin, Natalie Portman, Rachel Weisz, or Emmy Rossum's hair! (I was surprised at how many Jewish-American Actors there are as opposed to Actresses)

pepperminttea
February 15th, 2011, 06:54 PM
While I admittedly had never thought of Jewish as a race before reading this thread, I do wish I had curls! My 'probably originally Pagan before Christianity headed north' British-mongrel hair is far more boring. :p

Bonkers57
February 15th, 2011, 06:59 PM
I'm with you, squiggy! What I would have done for a lovely head of curls! And yes, Fran's hair's what I'm talking about!


*eats popcorn in the corner*..
i would like to chime in, im often very jealous of curlies.. not Jewish though, technically roman catholic.. but to say that im catholic is like saying that an elephant born in a tree is a bird simply because it was born in a tree like a bird is.. anyway, speaking of jewish hair, anyone remember fran in the nanny.. she had some great hair..

Darkhorse1
February 15th, 2011, 07:09 PM
I'm sorry, but I find this whole thread to be really offensive.

Yeah, I'm feeling the same.

It's one thing to talk about ethnic hair, it's another thing to use slang terms used by those as a stab at someone's ethnicity.

When we talk about African American hair, we don't use the 'n' word or any other derogatory term because it's in poor taste.

This post actually shocked me.

McFearless
February 15th, 2011, 07:17 PM
Yeah, I'm feeling the same.

It's one thing to talk about ethnic hair, it's another thing to use slang terms used by those as a stab at someone's ethnicity.

When we talk about African American hair, we don't use the 'n' word or any other derogatory term because it's in poor taste.

This post actually shocked me.

When talking about african american hair why would the n word come up? Thats not poor taste but racism. Very different from anything said here. This thread was started with good intentions.

Darkhorse1
February 15th, 2011, 07:19 PM
McFearless, that's my point. The term jews, goys and other terms used here are no different than saying the N word. They are derogatory and pointing out a difference by using slang terms.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like people using these terms---I find it offensive. Having known people who survived concentration camps, who have dealt with racism first hand, maybe I am overly sensitive.

I would much rather people just say embracing their ethnic hair---why use the term 'jew' or any other slang term?

Katurday
February 15th, 2011, 07:25 PM
Without meaning to offend anyone, I'd like to say that I feel the Jewish "race" also has been far too diluted to be truly called a "race". To claim there is a "look" to being Jewish is not only a wrong statement, but it is also a dangerous statement. There are commonalities, in the sense that I can call green/blue eyes pretty darn common in Ireland, but its hardly the end all and be all. I'm not Jewish, but I know my fair share of Jewish people with straight blonde hair, straight noses and blue eyes that would be pretty damn offended that they don't "look" Jewish. Furthermore, calling something "Jew hair", or worse a "Jew nose" has not been used by the group itself - it has been used cruelly and discriminatory by groups of hate (and I'm pretty sure you know which ones).

Furthermore, ethnic Jews come in more than just the Ashkenazi Jewish variety. Should we consider Sephardi and Maghrebi Jews not "Jewish looking" or without "Jewish" hair? And the comparison to "ethnic" hair is not a fair one - Asian hair, Caucasian hair, Australian Aboriginal hair and African hair types are structurally different. It only makes sense to specify them, especially since the comparisons are as different as a flat hair shaft vs. a semicircle hairshaft vs. a circular hair shaft.

*daisy*chain*
February 15th, 2011, 07:26 PM
I personally do believe in Jewish ancestry, not sure about a common ancestor or whatever, but a person can have had Jewish ancestors who did not embrace the religion (often due to political fear). I think reclaiming the stereotype and lingo can be part of the moving on process. Again, we're taught to have negative reactions to these things, but they may not really be that way. For example, with the word Jew. That being said, we should celebrate all types of hair in groups. Asians do have curly hair too, for example, and stereotypes are never the best idea. That being said, I totally envy spirally dark locks!

McFearless
February 15th, 2011, 07:27 PM
Lets keep the topic on the article. I really don't agree with the authors opinion. I hate the stereotype that those who straighten their hair are doing it because of self hate. I've heard countless times people say that about African Americans too. That they are trying to be white. It is not true about Jews either. The "jew hair" the author is talking about it coarse, kinky-curly and I understand why someone might think straightening it makes it easier to manage. After all most curlies on the forum used to flat iron their hair often for that reason. The grass is always greener.

"I’m sure there’s a percentage, just like with all populations, but let those guys go Asian if that’s what they want."

Again the author is being ironic, saying Jewish girls should battle the stereotype while enforcing many others.

"We were chosen for a reason; now embrace your curls and be well." Once more.. this whole "chosen one" attitude is offensive.

*daisy*chain*
February 15th, 2011, 07:31 PM
Once more.. this whole "chosen one" attitude is offensive.

um, that's part of the religious belief...

(and a play on words by the article's author)

McFearless
February 15th, 2011, 07:31 PM
McFearless, that's my point. The term jews, goys and other terms used here are no different than saying the N word. They are derogatory and pointing out a difference by using slang terms.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like people using these terms---I find it offensive. Having known people who survived concentration camps, who have dealt with racism first hand, maybe I am overly sensitive.

I would much rather people just say embracing their ethnic hair---why use the term 'jew' or any other slang term?

I think I misunderstood. I find the article ridiculous and offensive. I agree with you. When people said they find this thread offensive I thought it was geared towards the OP and other posters. :o

Darkhorse1
February 15th, 2011, 07:39 PM
No, I think this has a good idea for a thread, but the terms used are what is bothersome and that article is horrific! If they meant to be funny and hip, they failed miserably. Writing 101, NEVER use any sort of racial slur to define yourself or your background.

I do agree that people should embrace who they are, but using a term that is defined as boarder line offensive, just doesn't sit with me well. I'd rather people say jewish, not jew, and Italian rather than goy etc.

*daisy*chain*
February 15th, 2011, 07:41 PM
If you're Jewish (and personally I'm offended by it not being capitalized) and want to call yourself a Jew, that is not wrong!!!

jaine
February 15th, 2011, 07:43 PM
I really had no idea that the word "Jew" was considered a slang term. I thought it was on the same level with neutral descriptions of where people come from ... Caucasian, Chinese, Icelandic, whatever.

So I went over to Wikipedia and what do you know ... apparently it's not as neutral as I thought.

The word Jew has been used often enough in a disparaging manner by antisemites that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries it was frequently avoided altogether, and the term Hebrew was substituted instead (e.g. Young Men's Hebrew Association). Even today some people are wary of its use, and prefer to use "Jewish". Indeed, when used as an adjective (e.g. "Jew lawyer") or verb (e.g. "to jew someone"),[1] the term Jew is purely pejorative. However, when used as a noun, "Jew" is preferred, as other circumlocutions (e.g. "Jewish person") give the impression that the term "Jew" is offensive in all contexts.

So did I understand that correctly ... "Jewish" is less offensive than "Jew"? Except when "Jew" is a noun and then it's ok?
I find it very confusing to be honest even though I'm a native English speaker.

McFearless
February 15th, 2011, 07:46 PM
No, I think this has a good idea for a thread, but the terms used are what is bothersome and that article is horrific! If they meant to be funny and hip, they failed miserably. Writing 101, NEVER use any sort of racial slur to define yourself or your background.

I do agree that people should embrace who they are, but using a term that is defined as boarder line offensive, just doesn't sit with me well. I'd rather people say jewish, not jew, and Italian rather than goy etc.

We're on the same page:)

silverjen
February 15th, 2011, 07:49 PM
I believe there's a lot of power in reclaiming offensive terms. I've done so for myself, and only applying the term to myself. There's way too much room for misinterpretation if I try to reclaim it for others, unfortunately. I think that may be some of what's going on in this thread.

kwaniesiam
February 15th, 2011, 07:50 PM
Yeah, I'm feeling the same.

It's one thing to talk about ethnic hair, it's another thing to use slang terms used by those as a stab at someone's ethnicity.

When we talk about African American hair, we don't use the 'n' word or any other derogatory term because it's in poor taste.

This post actually shocked me.

I had to re-read this a bit because I wasn't sure what "N" word you meant, since we are talking about hair. I thought you meant nappy, not the other one, though some people take just as much offense from that word.


I really had no idea that the word "Jew" was considered a slang term. I thought it was on the same level with neutral descriptions of where people come from ... Caucasian, Chinese, Icelandic, whatever.

So I went over to Wikipedia and what do you know ... apparently it's not as neutral as I thought.


So did I understand that correctly ... "Jewish" is less offensive than "Jew"? Except when "Jew" is a noun and then it's ok?
I find it very confusing to be honest even though I'm a native English speaker.

I'm just as confused as you are, another native English speaker.

Maddy_T
February 15th, 2011, 07:52 PM
This thread is pretty funny, everyone needs to calm down, the original post was in no way offensive... a jewish girl talking jewish curls, whats the problem.

McFearless
February 15th, 2011, 07:52 PM
I really had no idea that the word "Jew" was considered a slang term. I thought it was on the same level with neutral descriptions of where people come from ... Caucasian, Chinese, Icelandic, whatever.

So I went over to Wikipedia and what do you know ... apparently it's not as neutral as I thought.


So did I understand that correctly ... "Jewish" is less offensive than "Jew"? Except when "Jew" is a noun and then it's ok?
I find it very confusing to be honest even though I'm a native English speaker.


It definately depends on the person and what they are comfortable with. From my experiences saying "I'm a jew" is the same as saying "I'm black". Someone might also be saying both. "Im a jew" refers to being Jewish, like being Muslim. When someone is being discriminatory it will sound very different and you can tell. Like "to jew someone". I've never heard that one before. :\

christine1989
February 15th, 2011, 07:53 PM
That article did rub me the wrong way for a few different reasons; For one thing I disagree with a few of the stereotypes implied or stated straight out. Not all Jewish girls have curly hair just like not all Asian girls have straight hair (an Asian friend of mine has natural 3b curls). Second, straightening does not express a dissatisfaction with your race- some people just don't have the time to deal with curls. Most annoying however was the way the author implied that frizz was a result of heat styling :rolleyes:. Why then is my non heat styles hair is still frizz central? All of the generalizations aside, I think that a person has a right to referr to themselves by any racial slang they like but it was in bad taste to use it in an article. A bit more objectivity would have avoided alienating certian readers.

*daisy*chain*
February 15th, 2011, 08:08 PM
I think the Wikipedia article hits on something. Jew is a noun, and used as an adjective gives off a derogatory impression. But I do think you have to defer to intent (as there is so much prejudice, realized and unrealized) and whether the speaker of the comment is Jewish herself, and in this case, the intent was of the OP was not to offend and was not coming from an ignorant or judgmental place. And there is something to be said for reclaiming the word, or at least the right to do that. "Jewish hair" may be more appropriate, although it still stereotypes, but on the other hand, it can conjure up the stereotype itself rather than the pride of reclaiming a look like "Jew hair" does. As to the article author bringing in other racial groups and implying straighteners were lesser Jews, that's completely counterproductive. However, I think she has the right to use the slang and wouldn't necessarily change it, as it can be empowering and her audience is people who probably get it.

kitschy
February 15th, 2011, 08:14 PM
I just want to apologize to anyone I offended with my post.

Lexy
February 15th, 2011, 08:18 PM
Still here and still watching. I think part of what is going on is a generational thing. Some of us older people are shocked to see slangy terms thrown around casually, but the idea of reclaiming those words is a valid one, and definitely worth trying. The discussion still seems productive. I appreciate that everyone is being respectful and kind as much as possible. :flower:

jaine
February 15th, 2011, 08:40 PM
This makes more sense to me now ...I think my Jewish friends were so successful in "reclaiming" the word for themselves that I didn't even realize it could be offensive. At least half of my coworkers and friends are Jewish ...I just felt surprised to be so out of the loop. not knowing about the negative connotation when "Jew" is an adjective. I hope I haven't accidentally offended someone in the past without knowing it.

Demetrue
February 15th, 2011, 08:46 PM
I guess I am of an older generation because I grew up in a mainly Jewish neighborhood in the 1960's and I certainly felt, while growing up, that using the word "Jew" as an adjective, as in "Jew hair," was considered offensive and dehumanizing towards people practicing Judaism. I realize that times have changed and what is considered offensive today may have evolved over the years, but I, personally, still would not want to use language that other people might feel hurt by.

When I hear young women blythely calling each other "b*tch", I still cringe, because I remember when the word was solely used to dehumanize and discredit women, especially women who were angry over a valid cause or reason, so I choose not to use that word.

angelthadiva
February 15th, 2011, 08:50 PM
I believe there's a lot of power in reclaiming offensive terms. I've done so for myself, and only applying the term to myself. There's way too much room for misinterpretation if I try to reclaim it for others, unfortunately. I think that may be some of what's going on in this thread.

Even this is a slippery slope.

Do you apply the term to yourself about yourself?

I am curious on this, because it was a topic of discussion in a "ethnic minorities" class I was taking at UNI where I was giving a group presentation on racism in Northern America. A Caucasian cohort thought the same (as you) about the "N" word. And rather stupidly began using it in the class during our discussion. Our class make up was with me being the only ethnic minority (Mexican and Native American). The city our UNI is in close proximity to a very urban area that is heavily populated with African Americans...I challenged him openly to test his theory about reclaiming this highly offensive word by yelling it down a well known street in the town and told him he wouldn't make it far before he got his butt handed to him.

I'm not Jewish, nor am I African American but I do find some of the language and ignorance in this thread to be highly offensive and completely insensitive. Many people of various ethnic backgrounds have experienced unspeakable acts of violence because of who they are as an individual. To use these terms actually perpetuates this hate--There is no reclaiming of it. We recycle bottles not hate words.

ETA: The student got into trouble and was actually reprimanded by the Prof. The student's point was that he felt that in an academic setting he should have been allowed to say it...Even that got shot down by the Prof as being unacceptable.

Nastasia
February 15th, 2011, 09:15 PM
I'm with silverjen on this one. There is a great deal of power in reclaiming offensive terms. Words change meaning all the time, and it is within our power to nudge them in one direction or another. Of course, I would never presume to reclaim offensive language that is applied to other people, but I have no problem applying antisemitic slurs to myself. I'd likely get offended if a non-Jew called me one of those words, but I see nothing wrong with a group of Jews talking amongst themselves about their "Jew hair", just like I would see nothing wrong with a group of black people using the n-word amongst themselves.

And yes, "Jew" as an adjective is not entirely polite, but as a noun it's just a technical term. The problem is that when you're a minority, particularly a marginalized one, any word applied to you is likely to become a slur. If we flinched away from every one of them, what words would we have left to describe ourselves?

To the previous poster who objected to equating "Jewish" with "Ashkenazi": you're absolutely right. It's a problem in the Jewish community, especially in the US, that we forget that not all Jews came from the shtetls of Eastern Europe. I'm Ashkenazi, and I'm very much guilty of it myself.

Lexy
February 15th, 2011, 09:19 PM
Nastasia, you make some very good points. I'm wondering what people would think about changing the title of this thread? Since the title at least is visible to everyone on the board, would it be more respectful to change it to something else?

angelthadiva
February 15th, 2011, 09:22 PM
<snip>If we flinched away from every one of them, what words would we have left to describe ourselves?

A person, human, woman/man seems like it would work just fine.

Unless you were at a Jewish dating mixer or something I really see no reason why you'd need to frame your introduction. :confused:

McFearless
February 15th, 2011, 09:25 PM
I'm with silverjen on this one. There is a great deal of power in reclaiming offensive terms. Words change meaning all the time, and it is within our power to nudge them in one direction or another. Of course, I would never presume to reclaim offensive language that is applied to other people, but I have no problem applying antisemitic slurs to myself. I'd likely get offended if a non-Jew called me one of those words, but I see nothing wrong with a group of Jews talking amongst themselves about their "Jew hair", just like I would see nothing wrong with a group of black people using the n-word amongst themselves.

And yes, "Jew" as an adjective is not entirely polite, but as a noun it's just a technical term. The problem is that when you're a minority, particularly a marginalized one, any word applied to you is likely to become a slur. If we flinched away from every one of them, what words would we have left to describe ourselves?

To the previous poster who objected to equating "Jewish" with "Ashkenazi": you're absolutely right. It's a problem in the Jewish community, especially in the US, that we forget that not all Jews came from the shtetls of Eastern Europe. I'm Ashkenazi, and I'm very much guilty of it myself.

Words should not have rules on who is allowed to say them. The n-word is disgusting and offensive. I don't think only African American and Africans should be allowed to say it while other races should not be allowed. Nobody should use that word. Same with anti-semetic slurs. How could you tell someone is jewish? I don't think anyone should use a word they are uncomfortable hearing someone else say.

Red_Wednesday
February 15th, 2011, 09:29 PM
I'm with silverjen on this one. There is a great deal of power in reclaiming offensive terms. Words change meaning all the time, and it is within our power to nudge them in one direction or another. Of course, I would never presume to reclaim offensive language that is applied to other people, but I have no problem applying antisemitic slurs to myself. I'd likely get offended if a non-Jew called me one of those words, but I see nothing wrong with a group of Jews talking amongst themselves about their "Jew hair", just like I would see nothing wrong with a group of black people using the n-word amongst themselves.

And yes, "Jew" as an adjective is not entirely polite, but as a noun it's just a technical term. The problem is that when you're a minority, particularly a marginalized one, any word applied to you is likely to become a slur. If we flinched away from every one of them, what words would we have left to describe ourselves?

To the previous poster who objected to equating "Jewish" with "Ashkenazi": you're absolutely right. It's a problem in the Jewish community, especially in the US, that we forget that not all Jews came from the shtetls of Eastern Europe. I'm Ashkenazi, and I'm very much guilty of it myself.

@ Bolded: But I think this is where the problem comes in. I truly believe that when a person who is non-xyz, hears the "xyz" person using a derogatory term within their group, the non-xyz person then feels it is ok to use that derogatory term as well.

Haven't we all heard, "Well, they call themselves that, so why can't I??" question?

I think on the one hand you are right that reclaiming an offensive term can give power to the person "reclaiming" it, but then on the other hand, is that person "powerful" enough to accept the consequences when the wrong sort of person (hateful) decides to use that term as well.

angelthadiva
February 15th, 2011, 09:40 PM
@ Bolded: But I think this is where the problem comes in. I truly believe that when a person who is non-xyz, hears the "xyz" person using a derogatory term within their group, the non-xyz person then feels it is ok to use that derogatory term as well.

Haven't we all heard, "Well, they call themselves that, so why can't I??" question?

I think on the one hand you are right that reclaiming an offensive term can give power to the person "reclaiming" it, but then on the other hand, is that person "powerful" enough to accept the consequences when the wrong sort of person (hateful) decides to use that term as well.

Very good point!

Nastasia
February 15th, 2011, 10:02 PM
Lexy, I'd support changing the thread title. "Jewish hair" instead of "Jew hair", perhaps?

Angelthadiva, that is a lovely sentiment, but the topic does come up on occasion. As it should, frankly. I don't go around introducing myself as a Jew, but I'm not going to hide it either. If my origins come up, or my family history, I'd like to have a term to describe what I am. To quote Monty Python, "I'm Kosher, mum. I'm a Red Sea pedestrian, and proud of it!".

McFearless, Red_Wednesday, I hear what you're saying. But burying words doesn't take away the sentiment, it only makes people come up with new words. It's the euphemism treadmill. Today, we decide that some word is offensive and we will no longer tolerate anyone using it in polite society. Tomorrow, some kid on the street will take our new, non-offensive term and spit it out in the wrong tone of voice, and the cycle will start all over again. I also have a serious problem with someone telling me what I am or am not allowed to call myself. I will absolutely call myself a b*tch if I want to. Or a k*ke, for that matter. I think it's perfectly legitimate to draw a line and say "I am allowed to use this word to refer to myself, but nobody else is". I think it is also very legitimate to say that there are times and places where that is acceptable, and others where it is not. You may be quite right that a public forum is not the best place to be reclaiming hate speech.

Lexy
February 15th, 2011, 10:08 PM
OK, I changed the title. I think people in the thread have made it clear that they have good reasons for phrasing it that way, but most people are not going to read through the whole thread, they are just going to see the title and get offended.

Demetrue
February 15th, 2011, 10:12 PM
The problem I see, with reclaiming epithets to rob them of their negative power, is that it can also rob young people of their ancestor's history, and if future generations use these words lightly, it feels like they fail to appreciate the suffering and struggle and fighting their ancestors had to go through NOT to be defined by these words. And if we come to a point where people do not remember their history, while it may be good that they are not continually reminded of the pain and suffering and violent actions that accompanied some of these negative words, then I am afraid that history will all too easily repeat itself. But maybe that is not the best or only way to protect our children from what happened to their grandparents - maybe it is catering to and creating fear and anger in them over what happened instead of instilling strength in them. In my heart of hearts, though, I remember the violent acts that accompanied certain words, and to speak them feels violent to me so I can't and won't bring myself to use them in my own speech and it often hurts me to hear others use them.

McFearless
February 15th, 2011, 10:22 PM
McFearless, Red_Wednesday, I hear what you're saying. But burying words doesn't take away the sentiment, it only makes people come up with new words. It's the euphemism treadmill. Today, we decide that some word is offensive and we will no longer tolerate anyone using it in polite society. Tomorrow, some kid on the street will take our new, non-offensive term and spit it out in the wrong tone of voice, and the cycle will start all over again. I also have a serious problem with someone telling me what I am or am not allowed to call myself. I will absolutely call myself a b*tch if I want to. Or a k*ke, for that matter. I think it's perfectly legitimate to draw a line and say "I am allowed to use this word to refer to myself, but nobody else is". I think it is also very legitimate to say that there are times and places where that is acceptable, and others where it is not. You may be quite right that a public forum is not the best place to be reclaiming hate speech.

You definately have the right to call yourself whatever you want. I think that if we all make sure not to use certain words in front of strangers there won't be a change of offending someone or bringing up painful memories or feelings.

trillcat
February 15th, 2011, 10:23 PM
I am glad you changed the title. I am German and I look German, and the title freaked me out a little bit.
I, as a person of this heritage have to be very careful in my words, and "Jew" is to me a bad word, set to designate a group of people into nothing more than a thing to be exterminated.
I get my share of hate being who I am, I am not a Nazi, there is an N word for you. You hear German, you think that.

LisaMonster
February 15th, 2011, 10:24 PM
I just wanted to say that I meant no offense by the posting of this thread.

I honestly was completely unaware that using the word "Jew" as an adjective could be offensive. I use it in the company of my Jewish friends and family often.

Personally, I'm not going to stop using it in the company I keep, but I'll be more aware in public.


Anyway, I love my Jewish hair :)

Nastasia
February 15th, 2011, 10:37 PM
Demetrue, I see what you're saying. I'd say, though, that the best way to make sure people don't forget their history is to teach them history. If I had it my way, nobody would get to reclaim hate speech without knowing exactly what it means. But that answer is a pretty simplistic one, and I do sympathize with what you're saying.

Honestly, I was a bit startled when I saw the original thread title. Not because I was offended, but because it seemed... edgy? Risque, perhaps? It's the sort of thing I'd say if I knew my audience quite well. I realize that not everyone has the same associations with words that I do. And the blog post... well, they know the audience they're trying to cater to. "Edgy" is exactly what they're going for. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment behind it, though if I were to write about it, I'd probably use less potentially problematic language. :)

On the thread's original topic: LisaMonster, I think your Jewish hair is lovely :).

Demetrue
February 15th, 2011, 10:40 PM
Lisa - I am sure you did not mean any offense. Perhaps it is a sign of healing that young people are able to use previously negatively-intended words without feeling the sting or pain that used to be associated with them.

Red_Wednesday
February 15th, 2011, 10:47 PM
The problem I see, with reclaiming epithets to rob them of their negative power, is that it can also rob young people of their ancestor's history, and if future generations use these words lightly, it feels like they fail to appreciate the suffering and struggle and fighting their ancestors had to go through NOT to be defined by these words. And if we come to a point where people do not remember their history, while it may be good that they are not continually reminded of the pain and suffering and violent actions that accompanied some of these negative words, then I am afraid that history will all too easily repeat itself. But maybe that is not the best or only way to protect our children from what happened to their grandparents - maybe it is catering to and creating fear and anger in them over what happened instead of instilling strength in them. In my heart of hearts, though, I remember the violent acts that accompanied certain words, and to speak them feels violent to me so I can't and won't bring myself to use them in my own speech and it often hurts me to hear others use them.

Well said:flower:

Lexy
February 15th, 2011, 11:00 PM
Perhaps it is a sign of healing that young people are able to use previously negatively-intended words without feeling the sting or pain that used to be associated with them.

This is what I keep coming back to. I'm really glad to hear that younger people honestly don't know that there is all this bitterness and pain around these words.

IStand4u
February 15th, 2011, 11:14 PM
I am glad you changed the title. I am German and I look German, and the title freaked me out a little bit.
I, as a person of this heritage have to be very careful in my words, and "Jew" is to me a bad word, set to designate a group of people into nothing more than a thing to be exterminated.
I get my share of hate being who I am, I am not a Nazi, there is an N word for you. You hear German, you think that.

I agree with you 100%! I find that calling someone a Jew is negative. I live in a VERY German and Ukrainian comunity. 2 churches for different Ukrainian sect, 1 other Catholic church for people who aren't Ukrainian (I don't know why), and then 6 churches for the different religions that different German people have. I may not look German, but I find it VERY offensive when people say bad things about German history. Hitler created a bad name for the Nazi's, that was the original name for German police. Now people associate the word "Nazi" with Hitler and a holocaust that happened because of 1 crazy man in charge who thought he was right and was going to do everything in his power to make it so. He was not fully German either, he was half Jewish as MANY people forget.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound deffensive or offend anyone, but in what I just said, you can see how a word that is meant to bring comfort to the public becomes a sin to say and people don't want to admit their heritage because of it. While yes, I consider "Jew" to be a dirty word (often used in the context where it means someone is a penny-pincher or will do the job the cheapest way to save money), but I do agree that if I want to call some of my German friends who I joke with alot a Nazi I will, they do the same to me.

But, when does it become to much, when does it become crossing the line of it being joking and okay? If we keep throwing these hate-associated words around like they don't mean anything, then eventually they wont. A word is only considered hateful or bad to say because people say it in a hateful or disrespectful way...

Like you said Trillcat, you hear the word German, you think Nazi. You hear the word Jew and you think concentration camps.

Just my :twocents: ...

picklepie
February 15th, 2011, 11:18 PM
I feel like the vocabulary issue has been covered well by pps, so I'll relate this about my own experience of "Jewish hair":

As a girl who inherited big, curly, dark, crazy hair from my Ashkenazi ancestors, but who was raised in an area dominated by big extended families from Scandinavia, with straight, blond, perfectly behaved hair, I always felt out of place. There was a lot of casual antisemitism, but I wasn't being raised observant, so I didn't think it applied to me. (Ha).

Then, the first time I went to synagogue, in a big city, just a few years ago, and saw the HAIR, MY HAIR, everywhere, on so many heads, like it was normal... I just about cried. I had long since grown to like my crazy curls, but when I realized that they were part of my special heritage as a Jew, I felt the importance of self-acceptance anew.

It was cool.

Tia2010
February 15th, 2011, 11:51 PM
Words should not have rules on who is allowed to say them. The n-word is disgusting and offensive. I don't think only African American and Africans should be allowed to say it while other races should not be allowed. Nobody should use that word. Same with anti-semetic slurs. How could you tell someone is jewish? I don't think anyone should use a word they are uncomfortable hearing someone else say.


I think this is a good point. When a derogatory slang word is used among members of any race (who don't find it offensive to use with each other) the word can start to become less offensive to other people outside that race hearing it and then it brings up the whole " well they say it why can't I?" argument....Things can really go wrong in that argument !

I have no problem with what anyone wants to refer to themselves as , its not my place to dictate , but I think we all become less and less sensitive to slang / derogatory words when we hear them used in a nonchalant way.

trillcat
February 16th, 2011, 12:04 AM
I agree with you 100%! I find that calling someone a Jew is negative. I live in a VERY German and Ukrainian comunity. 2 churches for different Ukrainian sect, 1 other Catholic church for people who aren't Ukrainian (I don't know why), and then 6 churches for the different religions that different German people have. I may not look German, but I find it VERY offensive when people say bad things about German history. Hitler created a bad name for the Nazi's, that was the original name for German police. Now people associate the word "Nazi" with Hitler and a holocaust that happened because of 1 crazy man in charge who thought he was right and was going to do everything in his power to make it so. He was not fully German either, he was half Jewish as MANY people forget.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound deffensive or offend anyone, but in what I just said, you can see how a word that is meant to bring comfort to the public becomes a sin to say and people don't want to admit their heritage because of it. While yes, I consider "Jew" to be a dirty word (often used in the context where it means someone is a penny-pincher or will do the job the cheapest way to save money), but I do agree that if I want to call some of my German friends who I joke with alot a Nazi I will, they do the same to me.

But, when does it become to much, when does it become crossing the line of it being joking and okay? If we keep throwing these hate-associated words around like they don't mean anything, then eventually they wont. A word is only considered hateful or bad to say because people say it in a hateful or disrespectful way...

Like you said Trillcat, you hear the word German, you think Nazi. You hear the word Jew and you think concentration camps.

Just my :twocents: ...
Hitler and his henchmen also desecrated a Pagan symbol of the sun, that would be the swastika. It is not what people associate it to, and he ruined it forever.
You cant bring that back, it is gone forever as a nazi symbol of hate.

RoseRed27
February 16th, 2011, 12:28 AM
Oh boy, I knew this would happen when I saw this thread. It's been my experience, that the best way to take the hurt out of a word is to stop using it. How many people would get upset if you yelled "carpetbagger" out of your car window? If people stopped using offensive words, the pain associated with them would subside. Of course new terms would come up, but the history and associations wouldn't be as strong.

And I do think there is a difference between when a Jewish person (or other group) uses a term that was used as an insult toward them, and when someone else uses it. Which hurts more: You calling yourself ugly or someone else calling you ugly? I don't think anyone should use a term which could be offensive, but it just sounds more offensive coming from people who aren't affected by the word. Maybe because they were the ones originally spitting the word?

And I find most people who use offensive slang terms casually, weren't really affected by them in the first place. They just think it's a silly word. But that's not the case of most people. There are some words for which the pain doesn't go away with repetition. I don't think it's a sign of healing that some young people don't understand the hate behind the word. I think it's ignorance or apathy. (Not you OP, you've just never heard that term as an insult, I'm talking about people who know a word is insulting) They may know it's a bad word, but use it anyway because some negative influence uses it. And most young people who use an offensive term know not to use it around someone from an older generation. Does anyone realize the n-word has been used among some blacks for hundreds of years? But that word still causes pain today, so I don't think repitition is working. Some of these pejorative words and negative associations are decades or centuries old. I think a better sign of healing would be to let these terms wither, only to be found in the pages of history books and historical fiction.

As a rule, I say, if it would sound shocking coming from a fat southern sheriff-don't repeat it. :p Or at least phrase it differently. This has made me more conscious of how I express things. I would never want to accidentally offend anyone. I absolutely don't think the OP knew what she wrote would be so provocative. But some people encounter hatred more often than others and are sensitive to any small aspect of it.

milagro
February 16th, 2011, 12:44 AM
And I do think there is a difference between when a Jewish person (or other group) uses a term that was used as an insult toward them, and when someone else uses it. Which hurts more: You calling yourself ugly or someone else calling you ugly?
Sorry but I find this idea much more offensive than the term Jew which in my mind was always just an ethnicity indication (that was new to me that it was derogatory by itself as well, I'm now a bit lost how to refer to people of Jewish nationality?). I think it all depends on context but equating any ethnicity name to ugly is over the top and IS an offense.


On topic, I've always admired what is described in the article as Jewish hair - thick, dark and curly. I rather attributed it to be "Mediterranean" or Southern type of hair though because it is more common there.
LisaMonster, your curls are definitely worth rocking no matter how they're called! :)

Avital88
February 16th, 2011, 01:16 AM
Jew hair? Jewylocks? Really?

Have you ever been the target of anti-Semitism? Have you ever been spat on because you're a Jew? Has anyone ever asked to see your "Jew-horns?" Have you ever lost a job because you are a Jew? Has anyone ever called you a filthy Jew? Has anyone ever told you, "Funny, you don't LOOK Jewish?"

The article supports a ridiculous stereotype.

I didn't say anywhere that you don't should not be your

I stand by my right to be offended and to make my opinion public.



Well, i dont understand why you overreact about a hairtopic? Yes ive been the target of anti semitism, in fact i live in Europe, so my whole family has been..
Last month i was spit on by a girl because of my heritage and so goes on the list.This doesnt mean we have to hide our jewism or not talk about jewish looking hair what might be a sterotype but so is moroccan hair or afro american hair?
I also feel more offended by you than by this thread

Avital88
February 16th, 2011, 01:19 AM
And as far as i know 'jew' is not a bad word! I dont understand whats the different in calling someone a catholic or a jew?

Elenna
February 16th, 2011, 01:20 AM
Words have power. Hateful words even if the original words are inoffensive can create really bad ideas that people do act upon. Calling a group of people words that hurt is just plain insensitive. There is still a lot of anti-semitism in the world. This just plays up stereotypes.

lilalong
February 16th, 2011, 03:15 AM
Hitler created a bad name for the Nazi's, that was the original name for German police. Now people associate the word "Nazi" with Hitler and a holocaust that happened because of 1 crazy man in charge who thought he was right and was going to do everything in his power to make it so. He was not fully German either, he was half Jewish as MANY people forget.


I'm sorry, this is a bit off topic, but I still feel a need to correct this. Nazis was not the name for the German police. Nazis is short for National-socialists, they were a political movement. They had their own party, which unfortunately became very successful under Hitler.

Also, it is very unlikely that Hitler was half Jewish. That was only a rumor that was going around at the time. Today historians pretty much agree that none of his ancestors were jewish as far as this can be traced back. You should also know, that there are people that find the insinuation that Hitler was half jewish quite offensive, because it implies that the jews brought the Holocaust over themselves.

Anyways, I sympathize on people calling you Nazi just because you are German. It happens to me a lot when I'm abroad. Mostly people don't have bad intentions and just think it's funny. I find it annoying, at best.

ktani
February 16th, 2011, 06:09 AM
I am Jewish on both sides of my family. I am not religious and I am non practicing. I am very proud of my Jewish heritage though and would never change or deny that.

I too find the link that promped this thread offensive. I agree with one comment posted to it by someone named Frances.

I get the generational differences to this topic in terms of reclaiming names. I think that is a highly explosive topic.

In my entire life, I have never heard of "Jewish" hair. Other physical characteristics have been ascribed to those thought to be Jewish, not that.

I get the OP wanting to celebrate her curls. That I applaud. I do not equate what the link was saying with straightening curls as a denial of heritage. To Black people it has been a contentious issue. Even using the term Black these days can be questioned.

Jewish roots can indeed be traced back to Middle East beginnings and Semetic tribes.

Humankind has been traced back through DNA to origins in Africa. We are all the same species. Not all of us have genes that represent that heritage plainly.

Jewish people are everywhere and cannot be singled out by any one physical characteristic. Judaism is a religion, not a race. Jewish people are Caucasion, Chinese, Black and in every other race.

I think it would benefit a number of people who have posted here to do some reading up on the topic of the history of Judaism and World War II.

I do not think this thread is the place for that discussion. I think like any topic of religion it belongs on the friendship board, not a public board.

There is no such thing to me as "Jewish" hair and even with a thread title change I find this topic offensive.

Bonkers57
February 16th, 2011, 06:19 AM
I know that's true, unfortunately. (And you're also spot on about the sunwheel.)


I am glad you changed the title. I am German and I look German, and the title freaked me out a little bit.
I, as a person of this heritage have to be very careful in my words, and "Jew" is to me a bad word, set to designate a group of people into nothing more than a thing to be exterminated.
I get my share of hate being who I am, I am not a Nazi, there is an N word for you. You hear German, you think that.

I didn't know that "Jew" was a derogatory term until now. Time and place is a good rule to follow. One would have to know someone very well to use those kinds of words around him/her. But I understand the thought behind your original post - it wasn't to insult anyone. But some people will be offended, regardless.


I just wanted to say that I meant no offense by the posting of this thread.

I honestly was completely unaware that using the word "Jew" as an adjective could be offensive. I use it in the company of my Jewish friends and family often.

Personally, I'm not going to stop using it in the company I keep, but I'll be more aware in public.

Anyway, I love my Jewish hair :)

"Teach them history" - what a concept, Nastasia! :) It startles me a bit when the young'uns say "Oh, that's so gay!", even though the word doesn't have the same connotation for them - it's like saying something is lame or stupid.

And I agree 100&#37; that LisaMonster has every reason to love her hair, whatever she wants to call it! :D


Demetrue, I see what you're saying. I'd say, though, that the best way to make sure people don't forget their history is to teach them history. If I had it my way, nobody would get to reclaim hate speech without knowing exactly what it means. But that answer is a pretty simplistic one, and I do sympathize with what you're saying.

Honestly, I was a bit startled when I saw the original thread title. Not because I was offended, but because it seemed... edgy? Risque, perhaps? It's the sort of thing I'd say if I knew my audience quite well. I realize that not everyone has the same associations with words that I do. And the blog post... well, they know the audience they're trying to cater to. "Edgy" is exactly what they're going for. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment behind it, though if I were to write about it, I'd probably use less potentially problematic language. :)

On the thread's original topic: LisaMonster, I think your Jewish hair is lovely :).

squiggyflop
February 16th, 2011, 06:25 AM
ahem.. has anyone seen these pictures of natalie portman (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/44746-natalie-portmans-natural-curls.html)'s natural curls.. they are very cute with her features i think..

trillcat
February 16th, 2011, 06:40 AM
I am Jewish on both sides of my family. I am not religious and I am non practicing. I am very proud of my Jewish heritage though and would never change or deny that.

I too find the link that promped this thread offensive. I agree with one comment posted to it by someone named Frances.

I get the generational differences to this topic in terms of reclaiming names. I think that is a highly explosive topic.

In my entire life, I have never heard of "Jewish" hair. Other physical characteristics have been ascribed to those thought to be Jewish, not that.

I get the OP wanting to celebrate her curls. That I applaud. I do not equate what the link was saying with straightening curls as a denial of heritage. To Black people it has been a contentious issue. Even using the term Black these days can be questioned.

Jewish roots can indeed be traced back to Middle East beginnings and Semetic tribes.

Humankind has been traced back through DNA to origins in Africa. We are all the same species. Not all of us have genes that represent that heritage plainly.

Jewish people are everywhere and cannot be singled out by any one physical characteristic. Judaism is a religion, not a race. Jewish people are Caucasion, Chinese, Black and in every other race.

I think it would benefit a number of people who have posted here to do some reading up on the topic of the history of Judaism and World War II.

I do not think this thread is the place for that discussion. I think like any topic of religion it belongs on the friendship board, not a public board.

There is no such thing to me as "Jewish" hair and even with a thread title change I find this topic offensive.
I have read about WWII, my grandparents on my dad's side escaped the regime, they were not Jewish, but were very close to the Polish border when the nazi's (I refuse to capitalize that word) decided that Polish people needed to die as well. My Ex husband's Mom is Estonian and was thrown into Auschwitz just for being Estonian. That was her childhood for the 2 years she was in that horrible place. She wears the numbers on her arm a as badge of honor, she survived it, and she mourns those who did not.
This is a place to discuss this, it happened, we can't make that go away.
How can you discuss antisemitism without discussing the Holocaust?
This is what words can do, they can change the world for the better, of for the extreme of hatred.

Bonkers57
February 16th, 2011, 06:45 AM
The nazis killed eight million Poles, Russians, Romani, homosexuals, disabled people and anyone else who challenged or didn't fit in to their 'perfect' society.


I have read about WWII, my grandparents on my dad's side escaped the regime, they were not Jewish, but were very close to the Polish border when the nazi's (I refuse to capitalize that word) decided that Polish people needed to die as well. My Ex husband's Mom is Estonian and was thrown into Auschwitz just for being Estonian. That was her childhood for the 2 years she was in that horrible place. She wears the numbers on her arm a as badge of honor, she survived it, and she mourns those who did not.
This is a place to discuss this, it happened, we can't make that go away.
How can you discuss antisemitism without discussing the Holocaust?
This is what words can do, they can change the world for the better, of for the extreme of hatred.

ktani
February 16th, 2011, 06:58 AM
I have read about WWII, my grandparents on my dad's side escaped the regime, they were not Jewish, but were very close to the Polish border when the nazi's (I refuse to capitalize that word) decided that Polish people needed to die as well. My Ex husband's Mom is Estonian and was thrown into Auschwitz just for being Estonian. That was her childhood for the 2 years she was in that horrible place. She wears the numbers on her arm a as badge of honor, she survived it, and she mourns those who did not.
This is a place to discuss this, it happened, we can't make that go away.
How can you discuss antisemitism without discussing the Holocaust?
This is what words can do, they can change the world for the better, of for the extreme of hatred.

Most of my father's family died in Auschwitz. The topics touched on should be discussed in my opinion.

However, I do not think that the topic of this thread was intended for that at all. It was as I see it about "ethnic" curly hair, not politics, religion or, prejudice.

squiggyflop
February 16th, 2011, 07:13 AM
*still frantically waves arms trying to steer the convo back to hair*
how about Lisa Edelstein
she has some cute curls here (http://www.redbookmag.com/beauty-fashion/tips-advice/curly-hair-how-to-hairstyles) she is picture 2 in the slide show
and here with a more natural (http://www.totalhair.net/hair-styles/gallery-photos/Latest-Hairstyles/Medium-Length-Hair/1/3230/hairstyle.html) looking hairdo

Ashenputtel
February 16th, 2011, 07:17 AM
Although we may be the most recognized group affected by Tay-Sachs, Ashkenazic Jews are not the only carriers of Tay-Sachs mutations.

French Canadians in southeastern Quebec and Cajuns in Louisiana also share an increased prevalence of the mutations that causes Tay-Sachs, at a rate not dissimilar to that of Ashkenazic Jews.

There's a pretty easy explanation for it, too. These groups (as is common in many OTHER groups of people) have historically tended to reproduce within a relatively small gene pool.

So yes, we tend to get Tay-Sachs more frequently than the general population. But the disease is by no means limited to Ashkenazic Jews.

DH and I were both tested, as well. I'm a carrier, he is not.

Being French-Canadian she's absolutely right about that. Personnaly being a francophone I find the word race quate offensive. In Academic French the word "race" is not use. It is believed that races are for dogs. The color of your skin and your hair type is an adaptation to the environment.

I'm happy to have mixed ancestry and not only French one. My children won't be as likely to carry some "defects".

squiggyflop
February 16th, 2011, 07:21 AM
oh come on!? im running out of curly actresses to throw at you all..

trillcat
February 16th, 2011, 07:24 AM
Most of my father's family died in Auschwitz. The topics touched on should be discussed in my opinion.

However, I do not think that the topic of this thread was intended for that at all. It was as I see it about "ethnic" curly hair, not politics, religion or, prejudice.
You are right, and I will stop my comments now. It is a tricky subject that causes a visceral reaction.
I love love love curly hair, (squiggyflop this was about hair!) though mine is a sad 1c

LisaMonster
February 16th, 2011, 07:47 AM
*still frantically waves arms trying to steer the convo back to hair*
how about Lisa Edelstein
she has some cute curls here (http://www.redbookmag.com/beauty-fashion/tips-advice/curly-hair-how-to-hairstyles) she is picture 2 in the slide show
and here with a more natural (http://www.totalhair.net/hair-styles/gallery-photos/Latest-Hairstyles/Medium-Length-Hair/1/3230/hairstyle.html) looking hairdo

I loooooooove Lisa Edelstein! Her curls are fantastic, and she is just beautiful.

Lizzy Caplan
http://cdn2.maxim.com/maxim/files/2003/04/15/lizzy-caplan/lizzy_caplan_l2.jpg

Donna Feldman
http://niuse.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/donna-feldman2.jpg

Emmy Rossum
http://images.askmen.com/galleries/singer/emmy-rossum/pictures/emmy-rossum-picture-1.jpg

Bast
February 16th, 2011, 08:06 AM
Try this paradigm-shifting idea on for size: race is a social construct. There is more genetic diversity between two members of a race than there is between two random people drawn from two random places in the world.

And, what ends up being used to define a "race" by looks alone is, in reality, very few genes when compared to the sheer number of genes that a single human has in their DNA. There is one human race out there: human.

Just adding on to what Ashenputtel said.

Getting back to the topic at hand - that article disturbed me, on a purely visceral level. I've a suspicion that it's been because of past experiences of mine that have stuck with me. I agree with Ktani on everything that she said.

Ashenputtel
February 16th, 2011, 08:11 AM
Try this paradigm-shifting idea on for size: race is a social construct. There is more genetic diversity between two members of a race than there is between two random people drawn from two random places in the world.

And, what ends up being used to define a "race" by looks alone is, in reality, very few genes when compared to the sheer number of genes that a single human has in their DNA. There is one human race out there: human.

Just adding on to what Ashenputtel said.

Getting back to the topic at hand - that article disturbed me, on a purely visceral level. I've a suspicion that it's been because of past experiences of mine that have stuck with me. I agree with Ktani on everything that she said.

Thank you that's exactly what I meant.

I'm tired of tha race thing. Look what happened in Rwanda and in WWII. It's just a random concept.

The hollocost is a very sensitive subject. I major in German and I always get the Nazi comment. Tired of it.

krissykins
February 16th, 2011, 08:12 AM
ahem.. has anyone seen these pictures of natalie portman (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/44746-natalie-portmans-natural-curls.html)'s natural curls.. they are very cute with her features i think..

Why don't we get to see more of her beautiful curly hair? I didn't know she had curls! Thanks for posting the link :)

lapushka
February 16th, 2011, 08:23 AM
Getting back to the topic at hand - that article disturbed me, on a purely visceral level.

Same here. I'm also very glad that the title was changed to say Jewish hair. I understand the OP didn't intentionally do this, but still I took offense, and I'm glad Islandgrrl spoke up.

About the article. I just don't see why curls have to be associated with being Jewish. Frankly, I don't see the connection. There's plenty of people with curly hair who aren't Jewish, so I wonder... what's the use of that article? Being Jewish is not something you can tell by looking at someone (that just brings history back into this), and that's what I hate about that article; the typecasting that was once so typical of a very bad regime.

IStand4u
February 16th, 2011, 09:21 AM
Hitler and his henchmen also desecrated a Pagan symbol of the sun, that would be the swastika. It is not what people associate it to, and he ruined it forever.
You cant bring that back, it is gone forever as a nazi symbol of hate.
Totally forgot about this till later in the morning. Thanks for adding that. While yes it can be regained, it will take twice as long to regain it unfortunately...


I'm sorry, this is a bit off topic, but I still feel a need to correct this. Nazis was not the name for the German police. Nazis is short for National-socialists, they were a political movement. They had their own party, which unfortunately became very successful under Hitler.

Also, it is very unlikely that Hitler was half Jewish. That was only a rumor that was going around at the time. Today historians pretty much agree that none of his ancestors were jewish as far as this can be traced back. You should also know, that there are people that find the insinuation that Hitler was half jewish quite offensive, because it implies that the jews brought the Holocaust over themselves.

Anyways, I sympathize on people calling you Nazi just because you are German. It happens to me a lot when I'm abroad. Mostly people don't have bad intentions and just think it's funny. I find it annoying, at best.

Thank you for correcting me on this, but this is what I was taught in History in my school. When I heard that Hitler was half Jewish the first thought was not that the Holocaust was being brought over by the Nazi's, but that Hitler was the worst hypocrite ever and that someone should have asassinated him alot earlier than they did, just MHO...


Oh, I love Emmy Rossum's hair! I always wish that it was my own!!!

Annalouise
February 16th, 2011, 09:23 AM
I'm with Islandgrrl (and Ktani) that there is no such thing as "Jewish hair" in the modern sense.

I think Dave Chappelle demonstrated very well that the word "N" still has no place, or any other derogatory racial slang word. Even if a black person "re-claims" the "n" word its still not ok for non-Africans to use it. And this is what makes the whole "re-claiming derogatory words- thing" silly. You have to see the absurdity of it and if you watch D. Chappelle then you'll know what I'm talking about. Some words are just better left in the dust bin because they will only stir up controversy.

Most likely when people use these words it is through ignorance not because they have ascended above the cultural bias or prejudice. We're living in the real world where racism and prejudice are realities no matter how much we want to live in a politically correct society and pretend that everything is so nice and rosey all over the world. Holocaust denial is more popular now then ever before in Arab countries and Mein Kempf was on the best seller list in Turkey only a few years ago.

However, to the OP - I do know what you mean and what type of hair you are referring to. I was amazed by a Jewish friends hair as a little girl and used to watch her and her mother doing their morning hair ritual. It was sooooooo thick, and soooooooo curly and sooooooo soft. It was truly amazing hair.:)
The bible says that Jesus had hair like a lamb and I think this is the type of hair the bible writers are referring to when they are describing Jesus's "Jewish" hair. (Not that he is ever depicted with this type of hair in iconography but thats another story).(Not that all Jews have the same type of hair but back in biblical days before people converted to Judaism, I'm sure there was more homogenaity in the tribe in terms of physical features). So strictly speaking I think you would have to define your term to specify Jews from a particular geographic location if you want to talk about a certain hair type. Nowadays Jewish hair could mean aboslutely any type of hair. And there have been African Jews in Ethiopia for forever so its not like there was ever one type of Jew in terms of ethnicity. (correct me someone if I am wrong).

1953Diygal
February 16th, 2011, 09:26 AM
:doh: I just knew this thread would play out like it has.....Good grief.

Newniepg
February 16th, 2011, 09:45 AM
ahem.. has anyone seen these pictures of natalie portman (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/44746-natalie-portmans-natural-curls.html)'s natural curls.. they are very cute with her features i think..

Those are really beautiful curls! They look so springy and 'boingable'. Seriously, LisaMonster, embrace the curliness- so many straight haired people go to great effort to get lovely curls. :)

Islandgrrl
February 16th, 2011, 09:58 AM
Well, i dont understand why you overreact about a hairtopic?

I also feel more offended by you than by this thread

Wait....you're offended that I'm offended? Or I just plain offend you? Could you clarify your statement, please?

Thank you.

Islandgrrl
February 16th, 2011, 10:08 AM
:doh: I just knew this thread would play out like it has.....Good grief.

I'm truly sorry that this thread has gotten so far away from what the OP legitimately was trying to discuss. But so far the discussion has remained remarkably civil.

I have to admit, I don't understand the concept of "reclaiming" offensive words. Perhaps it's generational. I don't know. But I would never refer to myself using an offensive term, I would never throw an offensive term around in casual conversation with friends or family. Words have tremendous power. I personally think they should be chosen carefully and respectfully, no matter who you're talking to.

LHC100
February 16th, 2011, 10:13 AM
:doh: I just knew this thread would play out like it has.....Good grief.
Really. While not offended, I am very disappointed that no one has yet discussed how to get some Fran Fine hair... Thought I'd see pics of glorious "do"s!

Dacia
February 16th, 2011, 10:15 AM
Holocaust denial is more popular now then ever before in Arab countries and Mein Kempf was on the best seller list in Turkey only a few years ago.

Turkey is not an Arab country. Not all Muslims are Arabs, but also not all Arabs are Muslims.

ktani
February 16th, 2011, 10:42 AM
The writer of this blog asks the question and puts forth some interesting ideas rather than making a statement. http://jwablog.jwa.org/jewish-hair

I was aware that many women back in certain times not that long ago went to extraordinary lengths to straighten their hair, to conform to the "ideal" beauty of the time but I never associated it with one particular ethnic group except for Blacks, who first used the afro as a political statement.

I have never heard of the term "Jew-fro" either.

lapushka
February 16th, 2011, 10:50 AM
The writer of this blog asks the question and puts forth some interesting ideas rather than making a statement. http://jwablog.jwa.org/jewish-hair

Nice article! :)

Annalouise
February 16th, 2011, 12:42 PM
......Holocaust denial is more popular now then ever before in Arab countries and Mein Kempf was on the best seller list in Turkey only a few years ago.

....


Turkey is not an Arab country. Not all Muslims are Arabs, but also not all Arabs are Muslims.

Hi Dacia,:) if you read my sentence, you will see that I didn't say that Turkey is an Arab country.

And, I didn't say that all Arabs were Muslims or all Muslims are Arabs.

I have to clarify this because I don't like it when people put words in my mouth. :)

squiggyflop
February 16th, 2011, 01:23 PM
Really. While not offended, I am very disappointed that no one has yet discussed how to get some Fran Fine hair... Thought I'd see pics of glorious "do"s!
i mentioned fran really early in the thread.. love her.. i used to watch the show with my nonnie every day as a kid..

3azza
February 16th, 2011, 01:54 PM
Jewish roots can indeed be traced back to Middle East beginnings and Semetic tribes.

Humankind has been traced back through DNA to origins in Africa. We are all the same species. Not all of us have genes that represent that heritage plainly.

Jewish people are everywhere and cannot be singled out by any one physical characteristic. Judaism is a religion, not a race. Jewish people are Caucasion, Chinese, Black and in every other race.

I think it would benefit a number of people who have posted here to do some reading up on the topic of the history of Judaism and World War II.

I do not think this thread is the place for that discussion. I think like any topic of religion it belongs on the friendship board, not a public board.

There is no such thing to me as "Jewish" hair and even with a thread title change I find this topic offensive.

Exactly...
May i add, biologically speaking, there is not such a thing as a race.

ktani
February 16th, 2011, 02:08 PM
Exactly...
May i add, biologically speaking, there is not such a thing as a race.

Agreed - we are all one species and that is fact.

The race viewpoint I hope disappears completely as we become one "global village". That however, is another topic.

Still we have all come a long way. It was no so long ago ...

GlassWidow
February 16th, 2011, 02:36 PM
Then, the first time I went to synagogue, in a big city, just a few years ago, and saw the HAIR, MY HAIR, everywhere, on so many heads, like it was normal... I just about cried. I had long since grown to like my crazy curls, but when I realized that they were part of my special heritage as a Jew, I felt the importance of self-acceptance anew.

It was cool.

I love this...isn't it such a great feeling when you find some place where you feel like you just plain belong, whether it's because of the way you look or the way you think or whatever? I've always felt that in order for me to feel normal "out in the big wide world," I have to feel normal in my own little corner of the world, first. Sometimes I think more people that I meet IRL need a strong foundation like this.

Gladtobemom
February 16th, 2011, 02:39 PM
Read this article on Jewlicious today about embracing your curls
http://www.jewlicious.com/2011/02/sisters-enough-already-with-this-curl-hating-crap/

Just wondering how many of those with "Jewish hair" we have around here :)

Lisamonster, you ROCK those curls. :rockerdud

I love your album picture just after you did your henna. your hair is wurly and your smile and confidence sparkle.

My Jewish ancestry comes from my mother's maternal grandfather. He was actually a Punjabi Jew. He had a big black curly puff of hair that turned into a big gray curly puff of hair. his beard was curly and hung nearly to his waist. When I was a little girl, he used to tell me that I got his mother's hair. I'm just about the only one in the family with curly hair.

Here's my hair when I was a teenager.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i175/Gladtobemom/Family&#37;20Stuff/LeeAnnat16.jpg

Dacia
February 16th, 2011, 03:11 PM
Hi Dacia,:) if you read my sentence, you will see that I didn't say that Turkey is an Arab country.

And, I didn't say that all Arabs were Muslims or all Muslims are Arabs.

I have to clarify this because I don't like it when people put words in my mouth. :)

My apologies. At first glance it looked like a very common mistake (google 'is turkey an arab country').

amaiaisabella
February 16th, 2011, 03:52 PM
:lol:
So I'm Jewish (technically) and my hair is... straight? ;)

Yeah, same here. I WISH I was rocking those curls! Sadly I inherited the wavy-straight hair of my dominating Basque ancestors. Darn it *pouts*

curly girl fla
February 16th, 2011, 05:13 PM
Wow...don't know how I missed this one yesterday....anyway, my heritage is Jewish, but I am not part of any religion. My brother, sister and I all have very curly hair like my mother. My father had waves, but the all pictures were of him with very short hair. My sister & I used the term Jew fro growing up-we always tried to straighten. She still does; I've been natural for, well, just about ever now. I can't imagine not having the hair that my Jewish ancestors blessed me with...

IndigoAsh
February 16th, 2011, 07:35 PM
I think people are being way to sensitive. Jew in my eyes = someone who is Jewish(the religion)... I think Israeli as a racial backround for this religion. I think any word could be used in an ugly way depending on HOW it's said. In this case I think it was a simple case of over-sensitivity. I am guilty of it every day. I think the conversation of 'Jewish' or Israeli hair should be continued minus the freaking out.

McFearless
February 17th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Turkey is not an Arab country. Not all Muslims are Arabs, but also not all Arabs are Muslims.
:agree: You tell 'em

McFearless
February 17th, 2011, 05:56 PM
I think people are being way to sensitive. Jew in my eyes = someone who is Jewish(the religion)... I think Israeli as a racial backround for this religion. I think any word could be used in an ugly way depending on HOW it's said. In this case I think it was a simple case of over-sensitivity. I am guilty of it every day. I think the conversation of 'Jewish' or Israeli hair should be continued minus the freaking out.

You're right. Here thats exactly what jew means. But different words mean different things depending on where you're from and what you've been through.

I think this thread is about the stereotypical Jewish hair. Not as common as you'd think but its played up in the media a lot. Like the thread.. "what long hair stereotype do you fit into" its proved not every Jewish person has that hair. I think its been positive.

Sanyia
February 17th, 2011, 10:55 PM
No Jewish heritage, but I rock it.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=6723&pictureid=96344

11eleven
February 18th, 2011, 12:20 AM
Jewish hair??? Unfreakingbelievable!

Let me first say that I am Jewish and I am of the "younger" generation and I am intensely offended, uncomfertable and horrified.

Also I would ask those of you who are not Jewish to please refrain from using the whole "you're being sensitive" deflecting tactic and other such rhetoric.

I have very straight dark hair. My sons have very straight hair, light brown almost blond and straight red hair. My ENTIRE family including extended have straight hair and we all look different. I went to a Jewish private school from kindergarten to grade 8 and let me tell you, that the students appearances reflected that of the multitude of different genetic makeups as the rest of the HUMAN RACE (yes people, we all do belong to the same taxon)

The title of this thread is still problematic as there is NO such thing as "Jewish hair". I hope people come to understand and educate themselves as to why applying a certain physical feature to people who are Jewish is so insulting and dehumanizing. Let's not forget how in the past, as well as today these, supposed Jewish physical attributes were and are used to promote anti-semetic stereotypes. They are used to exclude and 'other' people, to promote hatred, as well as to perpetuate the idea that Caucasian is the norm and the ideal.

Therefore I am kindly requesting that the title of this thread be changed to curly hair due to the fact that some human beings possess curly hair and some human beings do not.

Curly hair has no relevance or correlation to people who identify as Jewish!

McFearless
February 18th, 2011, 12:59 AM
Jewish hair??? Unfreakingbelievable!

Let me first say that I am Jewish and I am of the "younger" generation and I am intensely offended, uncomfertable and horrified.

Also I would ask those of you who are not Jewish to please refrain from using the whole "you're being sensitive" deflecting tactic and other such rhetoric.

I have very straight dark hair. My sons have very straight hair, light brown almost blond and straight red hair. My ENTIRE family including extended have straight hair and we all look different. I went to a Jewish private school from kindergarten to grade 8 and let me tell you, that the students appearances reflected that of the multitude of different genetic makeups as the rest of the HUMAN RACE (yes people, we all do belong to the same taxon)

The title of this thread is still problematic as there is NO such thing as "Jewish hair". I hope people come to understand and educate themselves as to why applying a certain physical feature to people who are Jewish is so insulting and dehumanizing. Let's not forget how in the past, as well as today these, supposed Jewish physical attributes were and are used to promote anti-semetic stereotypes. They are used to exclude and 'other' people, to promote hatred, as well as to perpetuate the idea that Caucasian is the norm and the ideal.

Therefore I am kindly requesting that the title of this thread be changed to curly hair due to the fact that some human beings possess curly hair and some human beings do not.

Curly hair has no relevance or correlation to people who identify as Jewish!

Have you read the entire thread? Jewish and non-Jewish people in this thread have felt like some people were being too sensitive. Jewish AND non-Jewish people also were offensed.

I also wanted to say that this thread is about the OP discussing her "media stereotypical" Jewish hair. It isn't ideal but I think we've all come to the conclusion that it is very specific and not all Jews have this hair type. We have threads for all sorts of hair too. There are at least two threads for your hair type.

Please don't be offended, no harm was intended.:blossom:

11eleven
February 18th, 2011, 01:08 AM
*Sigh* Yes I did read the entire thread and just because someone may not have had the intent to offend or may be ignorant as to the effect does in no way mean that it is acceptable. It is very hurtful and only serves to further stereotypes.

11eleven
February 18th, 2011, 01:15 AM
Oh gosh one more thing I forgot to mention...If there are two more threads that discuss my hairtype could we add one more for straight hair called Who's rockin' some Jewish hair? or would that be too confusing since this thread has the same name? Perhaps everyone in the world is "rocking Jewish hair" as Jewish people have the same different hairtypes as the rest of the population. Also I must disagree the OP was clearly not discussing media stereotypes in regard to hair. If that had been the case I would not be so offended.

lapushka
February 18th, 2011, 07:04 AM
11eleven, I understand why you're offended and upset. There's this thread, and there's the article that's being referred to in the OP. I don't know what's more hurtful, the thread or the article (where words like "Jew-fro" are being used as if it's nothing). OTOH, keep in mind that the OP didn't intentionally post this to hurt people. She mimicked the tone of the article when she posted. I think intention is key in assessing this situation. It would be *very* different if someone posted a racial issue with the clear intent to hurt or upset. Yes, I know it doesn't make it any less offensive, and I am sad a thread like this got posted too. It creates a divide where there is none, or where there should be none.

ktani
February 18th, 2011, 07:17 AM
I don't know what's more hurtful, the thread or the article (where words like "Jew-fro" are being used as if it's nothing).

"Jewfro" was used in the article I linked, not the original link for this thread, except as a tag. The term apparently started in the media, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro#Jewfro.

I had never heard of it until I did some research on it, when I read this thread.

Cailie
February 18th, 2011, 07:28 AM
(I agree with Islandgrrl, judaism is a religion, and with Bast who says race is a social construct (it's unfortunate taxonomy, not reality)

Islandgrrl
February 18th, 2011, 10:24 AM
I think people are being way to sensitive. Jew in my eyes = someone who is Jewish(the religion)... I think Israeli as a racial backround for this religion. I think any word could be used in an ugly way depending on HOW it's said. In this case I think it was a simple case of over-sensitivity. I am guilty of it every day. I think the conversation of 'Jewish' or Israeli hair should be continued minus the freaking out.

Oy. Since I have the unfortunate distinction of being the first person to have voiced my offense, I'm going to address this.

1. People are entitled to be sensitive about this if they choose to. If they choose not to be sensitive, well, they are certainly entitled to that as well. I am not wrong to have been offended. You are not wrong to have NOT been offended.

2. "Israeli" is not a race. It's a nationality.

3. Personally, I expressed my opinion when I said I was offended. I didn't "freak out." If you happen to think my expression of offense was "freaking out," well, you've never clearly never seen me freak out. Not. Even. Close.

Annalouise
February 18th, 2011, 10:40 AM
:agree: You tell 'em

Tell who, tell what?

Let's not forget the undercurrent in this discussion is about anti-semitism. Not- are Muslims Arabs or Arabs Muslims?

Care to explain?:)

Loviatar
February 18th, 2011, 11:26 AM
I have read this whole thread and appreciate how everyone has their own point of view. The only thing I would put forward is this:

Would it be easier and less offensive for the mods to change the thread title again, to:

"Article on Jewlicious.com website about curly hair" ?

:flowers:

angelthadiva
February 18th, 2011, 01:03 PM
*Sigh* Yes I did read the entire thread and just because someone may not have had the intent to offend or may be ignorant as to the effect does in no way mean that it is acceptable. It is very hurtful and only serves to further stereotypes.

I'm not Jewish, but I am with you. Hate words IMHO do not have place in a civilized, forward-thinking society. Those who wish to reclaim such words IMHO are not only insensitive toward others, but must also take responsibility for the fallout for these words being thrown around and used in/out of context in/out the presence of certain audiences and the ramifications that come from it.

This "I'm this, so I can say thaaaaat" only perpetuates ignorance because people who "aren't thaaaat, and say thaaaaat" stupidly think that it is okay to say thaaat. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. That's why every other week some media person or celebrity is getting fired or apologizing (or both) for saying racially offensive things.

angelthadiva
February 18th, 2011, 01:06 PM
Oy. Since I have the unfortunate distinction of being the first person to have voiced my offense, I'm going to address this.

1. People are entitled to be sensitive about this if they choose to. If they choose not to be sensitive, well, they are certainly entitled to that as well. I am not wrong to have been offended. You are not wrong to have NOT been offended.

2. "Israeli" is not a race. It's a nationality.

3. Personally, I expressed my opinion when I said I was offended. I didn't "freak out." If you happen to think my expression of offense was "freaking out," well, you've never clearly never seen me freak out. Not. Even. Close.

Bolded mine: :grouphug: I've never seen you freak out either, but I didn't think you did here :flower:

lapushka
February 18th, 2011, 01:08 PM
Would it be easier and less offensive for the mods to change the thread title again, to:

"Article on Jewlicious.com website about curly hair" ?

:flowers:

I'm with you on that!

McFearless
February 18th, 2011, 01:33 PM
Oh gosh one more thing I forgot to mention...If there are two more threads that discuss my hairtype could we add one more for straight hair called Who's rockin' some Jewish hair? or would that be too confusing since this thread has the same name? Perhaps everyone in the world is "rocking Jewish hair" as Jewish people have the same different hairtypes as the rest of the population. Also I must disagree the OP was clearly not discussing media stereotypes in regard to hair. If that had been the case I would not be so offended.

I never said she was discussing media stereotypes in regards to hair. I said the OP discussing her "media stereotypical" Jewish hair, which is true. The media uses terms like "jew fro" "jew hair" to describe the kinky-curly textures of Seth Rogen, Jonah Hill. They refer to their own hair that way too. The OP was talking about that type of hair.

When I said there are two or more threads for your hair type I was talking about the "dark hair" and "straight" hair topics. We don't have threads for certain races because hair varies so much between each race, and religion like you said.

11eleven
February 19th, 2011, 08:29 AM
I have never heard those terms used in the media and they are demeaning and insulting. The thread name should be changed and I hope that the moderators show some sensitivity and compassion in regard to this.

LisaMonster
February 19th, 2011, 10:35 AM
I would just like to point out that while I acknowledge everyone's right to be offended by the subject of this thread, I would like my right to NOT be offended to be equally acknowledged.

I refuse to be seen as ignorant and insensitive for posting this thread. I have edited the original post, and the title has been changed to accomodate to those who were offended. Stop asking for more.

I have to say that I AM offended by the likening of the term "Jew" to "n-gger."

Guess what? I AM A JEW. I am proud of being A JEW. My Jewish friends refer to themselves as JEWS. Their parents refer to themselves as JEWS. If you personally don't agree with this term, then don't use it, but again, don't try to pin me as ignorant and insensitive for using it.

Melisande
February 19th, 2011, 11:05 AM
Judaism is neither a race (there is only one human race, and I find the confusion between the terms "ethnic heritage" and "race" extremely irritating, not only concerning Jews) nor a religion. It's a peoplehood connected with a religion, like Circessians, Druze and other small people.

In order to be Christian, you have to be baptized, you can't be born Christian. But you are born Jewish, Circessian or Druze. And religion belongs to that heritage. "Am Israel" Jews call themselves, the People of Israel. Or bney Israel, the sons of Israel (Israel is Jacob). Nowhere in Jewish history Jews call themselves a race, that's an invention of Racist pseudo-Evolution theories in the 19th centuries. This nonsense has to go away! And I think that's what's so irritating about the naive use of those words. As German, I get the shivers when I see how these words just continue to be used. Sorry.

That's all.

I'm married to an Ashkenazi Jew and he has the most beautiful curls, and so has one of my daughters. My other children have my straight North European ;-) hair. So have some of my Ashkenazi Jewish friends. My best friend in Israel for example has very straight long hair. And I know many non-Jews who have curly hair.

Obviously, it's a cliche that Jews have wavy or curly hair. But on the other hand, Jews have intermarried and dominant genes have moved around in this gene pool. And maybe stubborn, wavy hair with a tendency to frizz is pretty dominant?

Anyway, I find it's a pity when people with "ethnic looks" change their nose, eyes or hair texture, whether it's Japanese or Filipino or Mexican or Jewish. And I'm all for celebrating curls and waves when straight is so fashionable that girls fry their hair with irons!

McFearless
February 19th, 2011, 12:18 PM
*shrug* I tried.

jaine
February 19th, 2011, 12:32 PM
I have never heard those terms used in the media and they are demeaning and insulting. The thread name should be changed and I hope that the moderators show some sensitivity and compassion in regard to this.

I am very confused by this request... I thought the mods already changed the thread title several pages ago? I thought everyone agreed that "Jewish" wasn't offensive?

It's confusing and interesting to me that the same word can have such different meanings to different groups of people who otherwise speak the same language.

DrkAngel
February 19th, 2011, 01:23 PM
cool article. unnecessary argument.

angelthadiva
February 19th, 2011, 05:09 PM
cool article. unnecessary argument.

:confused: If people are offended, it is quite necessary to them. People have been hurt and are entitled to their thoughts and feelings regarding this...Just like those who feel that they have done nothing wrong are entitled to feel that way too.

When people of differing views state their position it is a way to come away from the conversation with a deeper understanding of a topic (this just so happens to be a great example of this). I don't use racial epithets, but if I did--Just knowing that it was highly offensive to 1 person would be enough for me to stop using it. This is just my opinion/position. Other people have differing ones.

teela1978
February 19th, 2011, 05:22 PM
I wonder how regional this sort of thing is. Around here, Jewish people referring to themselves as "Jews" is ubiquitous (amongst the Jewish people I know anyway). My ex-boss even mentioned that his hair would "soon grow into a Jew-fro" if he didn't cut it soon (which was kind of an odd statement to hear from your boss...).

People have the right to reclaim and remake terms, and other people have the right to complain and be disgusted by it. I often use words somewhat derogatory towards females at my friends... but would be horrified if I ever heard a male using those same terms towards a female. As other females would probably be shocked to hear me use them. Doesn't mean I'll stop. My experience as a female is just as valid as theirs.

manderly
February 19th, 2011, 06:34 PM
I always thought "Jew" was just short for "Jewish". Nothing more, nothing less, unless used as an adjective or even adverb.

I always thought k**e was the really offensive word, and I'm really confused that Jew is somehow being equated with that one.

I may not be Jewish, but I have grown up as a minority (white in Hawaii) and we are known as "Haole", which means "foreigner". However, my dad and myself both being born and raised there, I am most definitely NOT a foreigner, and the only reason for me being called a Haole is due to the color of my skin. Haole can be used in a derogatory way, but it's also used by us to describe ourselves without the context of racism. If I describe myself to someone I'm meeting I say "look for the haole with the curly hair". Sure, I suppose I could call myself white or caucasion, knowing what the true undertones of the word are. But why? I've been insulted with other words that describe me - white, woman, fat, pale. A word holds meaning in the context it's used. Saying I'm a fat white woman is descriptive and the context those words are used in can change whether or not they are hurtful.

Sticks and stones...

11eleven
February 19th, 2011, 08:51 PM
My main problem is the assumption that a certain type of hair is Jewish hair. I have heard many times from people who were shocked to hear that I was Jewish because they would say "but you don't look like a Jew" The best is when I get the comment "Oh, I've never met a Jew before". In reality there is no one way that Jewish people look, but they assume that Jewish people have big noses (I have never heard the hair thing until this thread), and as far as the never met Jewish people before that ties into the assumption that Jewish people look a certain way, so in most cases these people have come across Jewish people many, many times.

My problem is that I am "rockin' some Jewish hair" BUT my hair is pin straight. There is no such thing as Jewish hair and to imply or suggest so merely continues to play into the stereotypes.

To be honest, I don't like the word Jew and I don't use it to describe myself or others. However, I do realize that it has made it's way into the mainstream and that most often it is not meant in a derogatory way. I would like to point out though that "Jew" was a term that was used in an anti-semetic way during World War2 and after. And "Jew" is still used today by many in a malicious way.

I stand by my original sentiment that it is insensitive and does lack compassion to continue to this thread with the name "Who's rockin' some Jewish hair." I am actually surprised that someone who is Jewish would ever even think that this is acceptable. It's actually very sad to me and it's really not a way of "reclaiming your power" it's simply perpetuating the same old Jew hating. I won't bother to comment anymore as I find many of the responses here hurtful, but I very much appreciate those who have spoken up about this issue, it means a lot :) The last thing I will say though is that during World War 2 in Poland my Great Aunt was waiting in line to get some bread for the family and was not wearing her yellow star that said "Jew" on it. Someone waiting in the line recognized her and yelled out to the soldiers that she was a "Jew" My Great Aunt could speak fluent Polish and German and vehemently denied being Jewish. The soldier questioned her for a bit and then told her not to worry he knew she wasn't a "Jew" as she didn't look like a "Jew" at all. She, unlike many of my family members was able to survive.

There is much danger in stereotypically categorizing people.
Peace and blessings to you all.

moomoo
February 19th, 2011, 09:26 PM
Here's my hair when I was a teenager.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i175/Gladtobemom/Family%20Stuff/LeeAnnat16.jpg

Firstly, I think we might be hair twins! At least until recently. Now, most of my hair still looks like yours, but a few sections seem to have lost the curly wave. In comparison to my sisters' hair, mine very difficult to manage -- no one in family knew how to handle the curly tangles and my siblings would constantly tease me by asking if I'd bothered brushing it that day (or that week). Of course, no one knew the wonders a little conditioner could do. Or hair products in general for that matter. I sure would've liked if someone had told my mom to comb my wild hair instead of trying to brush it straight! Hah.

And as to the debate over offensive terminology, I think people need to take into consideration that words (and whether they're derogatory or not) are largely based on culture. I think it's understandable to be offended by words based on your experiences, but I think you have to remember that the person who said it might've grown up in a different environment where that word didn't carry the same connotation and, imo, your experience isn't automatically more valid than theirs -- and vice versa. I'm not sure how many people here have interacted with Deaf people, but the first I heard someone called "deafie" I nearly fell over. It seems like such a diminutive, offensive word, but it's how Deaf people refer to themselves and other deaf people (hearing people get to be hearies). Just for reference, the term "hearing impaired" is pretty loathed and offensive, which is what hearing people consider the PC term for someone who is either deaf or hard of hearing. It's all cultural. Where I grew up, swearing is acceptable -- it's just seen as words and they aren't 'good' or 'bad.' Everyone swore -- school teachers, moms, nuns, everyone. In the States, where I live now, swearing is not acceptable. It's offensive and bad. The words didn't change, the culture did.

All that to say, I think I might try learning to embrace my natural hair more. I've never learned to deal with it, so I've always straightened it to make it manageable when I wear it down. My mother's birth father was Sephardic, but I've never heard of there being a Jewish hair texture before now. I wonder if it's like the Irish stereotype -- that all they all have red hair and freckles. While Ireland does have a very slightly higher percentage of red heads, most of them are brown headed. My dad's family is Irish and my sister has red hair and freckles, I've got very dark hair and and no freckles (although I'm very careful about sun protection :) ). Everyone in the US thinks she's a lovely, typical Irish girl, but she stands out in Ireland, too. All my Irish friends were more my coloring that hers.

Sorry for writing so much; I'm going to blame it on the cold medicine.

Avital88
February 20th, 2011, 10:17 AM
I would just like to point out that while I acknowledge everyone's right to be offended by the subject of this thread, I would like my right to NOT be offended to be equally acknowledged.

I refuse to be seen as ignorant and insensitive for posting this thread. I have edited the original post, and the title has been changed to accomodate to those who were offended. Stop asking for more.

I have to say that I AM offended by the likening of the term "Jew" to "n-gger."

Guess what? I AM A JEW. I am proud of being A JEW. My Jewish friends refer to themselves as JEWS. Their parents refer to themselves as JEWS. If you personally don't agree with this term, then don't use it, but again, don't try to pin me as ignorant and insensitive for using it.


well said, i totally agree with you Lisamonster.

ole gray mare
February 20th, 2011, 12:03 PM
Hoo boy.

I really like curly hair, despite the cultural, ethnic or religious affiliation!

My very ethnically Irish/Welsh/Scottish/English sister has beautiful curls, whereas I don't.

Monkie
February 20th, 2011, 10:52 PM
I didn't wind up with a 'jew fro' luckily, but my Jewish heritage is less balkan/russian and more finnish/baltic region.

MandyBeth
February 21st, 2011, 10:31 AM
Half here, have pretty controlled hair, got the cat fine from Mom, so that helps. Have been harrassed for being half, tho Dad didn't grow up practicing, and is now a UCC minister.

Toadstool
February 21st, 2011, 11:06 AM
I would much rather people just say embracing their ethnic hair---why use the term 'jew' or any other slang term?

I truly don't understand this. In the UK people who are of the Jewish religion are described as "Jews" and it is neither a slang term nor deemed to be offensive. It is the same as calling someone a "Christian" or a "Muslim".

Twarg
February 21st, 2011, 11:13 AM
My god. I'm always amazed how people jump on to have their say when it's something that offends -them-. My personal opinion is that if it's not meant to be offensive, just let it go. Some people, sure, hand it to them if they deserve it, but otherwise quietly, in your mind, express that you think they are ignorant and then forgive them for it.

I think most people would be rather wrong to claim they speak nothing offensive ever, as most of us offend someone in often regular conversations, whether we see it as anything that could be possibly hurtful in any way or not. Truth is, people are offended by a myriad of things.. to not offend would be to walk on eggshells constantly. I don't believe that is good for anyone.

Again though, some people do go out of their way and I'd love to see it handed to them, but I hardly think that a regular conversation where someone is just trying to express a common term for a type of hair, that -everyone- understands to be that kind of hair, whether they agree with the cultural aspects behind the term or not, is the place for a debate.

Shouldn't it be about the topic itself, which is who has hair like that? All hair types are to be celebrated. Tis the Long Hair Commmmuuuunity! :D

I'm of no faith and my heritage is English, Irish and French with a touch of Spanish in there (so I suppose culturally I'm a walking contradiction) yet I get triangle hair that is generally frizzy 90&#37; of the time. My profile picture isn't an accurate example of my every-day hair. It can be a real pain in the bum but then, a lot of people wish they had volume. At least hair with such volume can be really fun and goofy at times :) Theres a cute pic somewhere of my Mum when she was young, having teased her hair out into what I call the white-fro :D Which I hope no one finds offensive...

McFearless
February 21st, 2011, 11:33 AM
Twarg I agree with what you're saying.

So to get back on topic here is a pic of Debra Messing. Not sure where she is from but I think Poland.
http://i53.tinypic.com/243opdu.jpg

She is an example of a poor curly who heat styles to the point curls cant form anymore. Yikes.

McFearless
February 21st, 2011, 11:39 AM
Also Emanuelle Chriqui..perfect example of not all Jews having the same hair. She is from Morocco and a sephardic jew
http://i53.tinypic.com/2v2vczd.jpg

Twarg
February 21st, 2011, 11:41 AM
That is a bit sad :( I've seen her with curls and they're beautiful.

truepeacenik
February 21st, 2011, 12:10 PM
I have heard "but you don't look Jewish."
So... I have to look a specific way to be who and what I am?
I LOOK Irish, but no.
My shul has Jews from around the world, black, white, Asian. And we are Orthodox.

on the Chosen: We were chosen to follow rules. Six hundred and thirteen, to be exact. We were chosen to believe in one of the earliest tribal forms of monothieism. We were chosen to keep the sabbath, and to be apart. (that has changed with the Diaspora)
Others who wish to be among the righteous follow Noahide laws. That's seven rules.

In the grass is greener world, I'd love to have the typically-associated curls.
In my world, one of my dearest friends is Chinese (HK born) and has the the most beautiful curls I have ever known.
People remember him!

Twarg
February 21st, 2011, 12:19 PM
My gosh, six hundred and thirteen? I hope I don't seem like a total idiot but I never grew up with religion so I've no idea how you learn that many, or live by them all? Just curious, not questioning your faith :)

Monkie
February 21st, 2011, 12:41 PM
My gosh, six hundred and thirteen? I hope I don't seem like a total idiot but I never grew up with religion so I've no idea how you learn that many, or live by them all? Just curious, not questioning your faith :)

It's my understanding of the 613 commandments that there is no definitive list somewhere listing them all, and that each 'taryag mitzvot' is more conceptual than anything. It's not as though each commandment is a hard and fast rule.
Here is a really interesting article about an Orthodox woman who runs her own business hand-making Sheitel:
http://canopycanopycanopy.com/10/she_goes_covered

Twarg
February 21st, 2011, 07:29 PM
Thankyou :)

RoseRed27
February 21st, 2011, 09:50 PM
Sorry but I find this idea much more offensive than the term Jew which in my mind was always just an ethnicity indication (that was new to me that it was derogatory by itself as well, I'm now a bit lost how to refer to people of Jewish nationality?). I think it all depends on context but equating any ethnicity name to ugly is over the top and IS an offense.




I was not equating an ethnicity's name to "ugly". I would never say that, and I'm sorry if my post suggested that to you. I was saying that a negative word (which some people, who it was meant to hurt, try to "reclaim" by using it as a term of endearment) hurts more coming from "outsiders", than members of the same group. For instance, if I were to say "ugh, my hair looks terrible", it wouldn't hurt as much as someone else saying "ugh, your hair looks terrible". Or if my sister said, "Your butt looks fat in those pants! Haha!". I would hit her playfully with a pillow. If a stranger said that, I'd have a few choice words for her. I hope you see what I mean. :p Some questionable things said among friends/family/lovers/etc., when said by others, has a different slant. I, personally, don't subscribe to the whole "term of endearment" angle, when it comes to the racial epithet that is used to negatively or "endearingly" refer to my ethnic group.

And you can call someone who's Jewish, Jewish. I think because some of us only hear "A Jew", or "Jew this or that", used primarily as an insult, we are sensitive to the use of that word.

Othala
February 22nd, 2011, 01:37 PM
I find it difficult to understand how hair could be Jewish.

If, by the title of this thread, Jewish people's hair is meant, then I would point out that I have known Jews with curly/straight/kinky blond/brown/black hair.

I find the tone of some of the earlier postings in this thread offensive and I am not even Jewish.

lapushka
February 22nd, 2011, 01:45 PM
I find it difficult to understand how hair could be Jewish.

Me too. I don't think I'd understand it even if someone tried to explain it to me. :confused:

McFearless
February 22nd, 2011, 06:08 PM
Me too. I don't think I'd understand it even if someone tried to explain it to me. :confused:

Its not to say hair can be Jewish. It is referring to the stereotypical Jewish hair. But like all stereotypes its wrong, and doesn't account for every Jewish person. Its like who is rocking some black hair? Blonde hair? Very different from "whos hair is acting Buddhist"..which is the vibe I get from people saying "I dont know how hair can be jewish".

The "Jewish hair" in this thread is a response the the posted article about curlies who straighten their hair which the author deemed as self hate.

jaine
February 22nd, 2011, 07:30 PM
This thread is making my head spin, I keep coming back out of curiosity to see if it will make more sense to me, but I admit I'm not having much luck. In real life my Jewish friends use the words "Jew" and "Jewish" all the time and I've never heard these words used with any sort of negative connotation. Even after reading every post on this thread I can still safely say that I haven't ever heard these words used with negative intent. They're being just like regular words with no harm behind them whatsoever. It's fascinating to me that these words are causing distress to someone...I keep coming back to peek at this thread hoping it will make more sense to me where the distress comes from, but I'm still confused.

LisaMonster
February 22nd, 2011, 07:36 PM
This thread is making my head spin, I keep coming back out of curiosity to see if it will make more sense to me, but I admit I'm not having much luck. In real life my Jewish friends use the words "Jew" and "Jewish" all the time and I've never heard these words used with any sort of negative connotation. Even after reading every post on this thread I can still safely say that I haven't ever heard these words used with negative intent. They're being just like regular words with no harm behind them whatsoever. It's fascinating to me that these words are causing distress to someone...I keep coming back to peek at this thread hoping it will make more sense to me where the distress comes from, but I'm still confused.

I've decided to attribute the whole thing to a cultural misunderstanding. :hmm:

Schmoomunitions
February 22nd, 2011, 08:07 PM
WAIT! Lisamonster lists "dinosaurs" as something she likes!!!!

LisaMonster
February 22nd, 2011, 08:16 PM
WAIT! Lisamonster lists "dinosaurs" as something she likes!!!!

Pfft yes. I'm on the lookout for a dino hair stick if anyone happens to run into one :P

Piperdiva
February 23rd, 2011, 08:03 PM
Geez, in my 44 years on this Earth I never knew one could convert into a race. I'm quite tired of my flat white butt. I want a nicely shaped Beyonce tush. Therefore, I plan on converting to Black tomorrow.

Luna12345
February 23rd, 2011, 08:57 PM
This thread makes no sense to me:confused:
It's like saying who's rocking Christian hair , muslim hair, boudist hair? Aren't jews allover the world with all of them having diffirent hair?? I have two jewish friends who are nigerian and I'm sure their hair isn't the same as a white jewish person.

AnnaJamila
February 23rd, 2011, 09:01 PM
O_O This thread has me so paranoid now!!! I had absolutely no idea that the word Jew could be a verb/adjective/adverb. I thought it was just a noun... I did know that some people used it in a deragatory manner, but I didn't know that some people found any use of it insulting! I really hope I haven't insulted someone like that before, I go through that kind of thing every day and it stinks!

I just don't understand why the name of the religion is now offensive. Please, I'm saying this from confusion not sarcasm so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that kind of letting them win?

Any way, interesting thread, I should print that article out for my mom!

AnnaJamila
February 23rd, 2011, 09:03 PM
This thread makes no sense to me:confused:
It's like saying who's rocking Christian hair , muslim hair, boudist hair? Aren't jews allover the world with all of them having diffirent hair. I have two jewish friends who are nigerian and I'm sure their hair isn't the same as a white jewish person.

Hehe, depending on the Muslimah, Muslim hair could be a cloth hijab!

Luna12345
February 23rd, 2011, 09:14 PM
Hehe, depending on the Muslimah, Muslim hair could be a cloth hijab!

hahaha, that's not a funny comment in my opinion.

AnnaJamila
February 23rd, 2011, 09:22 PM
hahaha, that's not a funny comment in my opinion.

. . . Ok, sorry you feel that way, I wasn't trying to offend anyone.

ETA: I wear hijab and I get so many racist comments each and every day that if I took everything too seriously I would go nuts.

RadiantNeedle
February 23rd, 2011, 09:28 PM
I thought it was cute, AnnaJamila.

AnnaJamila
February 23rd, 2011, 09:30 PM
I thought it was cute, AnnaJamila.

Hookay, thanks, I was about to cry!!! :o

laughinglynxie
February 23rd, 2011, 09:57 PM
Phew...I guess I didn't know the difference in the terminology, either, and I try to be as sensitive and non-judgmental as possible! Learn something new every day. :)

And I just wanted to say you all have gorgeous hair! :crush:
I am, however, rocking the Scandinavian-descent hair (albiet, only a few inches of virgin color regrowth).

Luna12345
February 23rd, 2011, 10:21 PM
. . . Ok, sorry you feel that way, I wasn't trying to offend anyone.

ETA: I wear hijab and I get so many racist comments each and every day that if I took everything too seriously I would go nuts.

it didn't offend me, I just didn't find it funny because although some men and women cover their hair for religeous purposes , They still have hair.:)

I'm sorry that you haveto deal with racism, It's dissapointing how there can be ignorant people everywhere.;)

Elenna
February 23rd, 2011, 10:22 PM
....
And as to the debate over offensive terminology, I think people need to take into consideration that words (and whether they're derogatory or not) are largely based on culture. I think it's understandable to be offended by words based on your experiences, but I think you have to remember that the person who said it might've grown up in a different environment where that word didn't carry the same connotation and, imo, your experience isn't automatically more valid than theirs -- and vice versa. I'm not sure how many people here have interacted with Deaf people, but the first I heard someone called "deafie" I nearly fell over. It seems like such a diminutive, offensive word, but it's how Deaf people refer to themselves and other deaf people (hearing people get to be hearies). Just for reference, the term "hearing impaired" is pretty loathed and offensive, which is what hearing people consider the PC term for someone who is either deaf or hard of hearing. It's all cultural. Where I grew up, swearing is acceptable -- it's just seen as words and they aren't 'good' or 'bad.' Everyone swore -- school teachers, moms, nuns, everyone. In the States, where I live now, swearing is not acceptable. It's offensive and bad. The words didn't change, the culture did....

Not sure whether you are hearing impaired or not, but I find this hard to digest. When a person is handicapped, they don't like to be singled out either. Words like hard of hearing, hearing impaired (politically correct), or deafie are ways to isolate and shelf a person(s). The deaf people I knew didn't speak the word deafie, they used sign language to signify their deaf disability. But all this just goes to reject people who don't hear or don't hear very well. It's the terminology.

Hala
February 23rd, 2011, 10:22 PM
I would just like to point out that while I acknowledge everyone's right to be offended by the subject of this thread, I would like my right to NOT be offended to be equally acknowledged.

I refuse to be seen as ignorant and insensitive for posting this thread. I have edited the original post, and the title has been changed to accomodate to those who were offended. Stop asking for more.

I have to say that I AM offended by the likening of the term "Jew" to "n-gger."

Guess what? I AM A JEW. I am proud of being A JEW. My Jewish friends refer to themselves as JEWS. Their parents refer to themselves as JEWS. If you personally don't agree with this term, then don't use it, but again, don't try to pin me as ignorant and insensitive for using it.

As a new person, and not wanting to get into a touchy topic, I'd like to respectfully say that this has always been my take on it as well.

I grew up in a Jewish home, and it was always seen as a bit shocking when someone (almost always not Jewish) would react to "Jew" as a derogatory term. I hadn't realized the idea had become so prevalent. I think it's very, very unfortunate if that's the case, because I don't see any way for somebody not to be hurt--either people who feel that they are being referred to by a derogatory term, or people who feel that their legitimate identifier is being taken from them.

For the record, I don't think it's at all about "reclaiming," in this instance.

Monkie
February 23rd, 2011, 10:42 PM
http://www.tvdads.com/images/nanny.gif

Can we just lighten the mood for a bit? This is the 'Mane' Forum. Not the Socioeconomicalculturaldialogueracerelations forum.:knit:

silkenblacksea
February 23rd, 2011, 11:01 PM
Turkey is not an Arab country. Not all Muslims are Arabs, but also not all Arabs are Muslims.

Holocaust Denial in Arab countries.... Mein Kempf on the bestseller list in Turkey.... Muslims??? What do Muslims have to do with those things? Islam is a peaceful way of life. People who use it as a political banner under which to propogate hatred and murder are criminals, not Muslims. I am an African Cherokee German American Muslim. And now [I]I'm[I] offended.

LisaMonster
February 23rd, 2011, 11:04 PM
Whether or not you agree with it... this isn't some random idea that I just made up out of nowhere to piss everyone off.

http://jwablog.jwa.org/jewish-hair

http://blog.rabbijason.com/2011/02/lets-hair-it-for-jew-fro.html

http://community.livejournal.com/weirdjews/2121171.html

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2202510511

http://www.flickr.com/groups/myjewishhair/

http://blogs.forward.com/sisterhood-blog/117852/



Feel free to be offended by any of the above links... I just wanted to note that I'm not the only person who's thought to discuss this. I'm surprised it hasn't come up before on such a large hair forum.

goldcopperbrown
February 24th, 2011, 12:06 AM
I'm half Jewish but I don't have Jewish hair! I really wish I did. I love thick hair with big curls. Instead, I have extremely straight dense fine hair. poo.

Twarg
February 24th, 2011, 02:15 AM
This thread has become sad. I came back to it with the hopes of seeing some frizzy/curly/puffy/triangle/huge/fro-like hair (come to think of it, there was an easier way of saying that. *taps finger nails* now, what was that term..?) but had to sift through a whole bunch of debate crap to get to one post with links, by the author of the thread, to see any.. even after people had been asked to get back to the heart of the subject...

I'm a big South Park fan, so naturally, Matt Stone:

http://worldhairstyles.com/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/41512b5b9959c1fa124de399c6165198.jpg

Love it :) Dude wouldn't be able to stop me touching it.

Dacia
February 24th, 2011, 07:43 AM
Holocaust Denial in Arab countries.... Mein Kempf on the bestseller list in Turkey.... Muslims??? What do Muslims have to do with those things? Islam is a peaceful way of life. People who use it as a political banner under which to propogate hatred and murder are criminals, not Muslims. I am an African Cherokee German American Muslim. And now [i]I'm[i] offended.

I was not discussing Islamic beliefs or actions. To me, as I previously stated, it looked like the poster put Turkey in the same pot with Arabic countries, which is a common misconception. Just saying that technically, Muslim ≠Arab.



Not all Muslims are Arabs - Turks are Muslims in majority, but living in Eurasia.
Not all Arabs are Muslims - there are Arabic-speaking Christians in the Arabian Peninsula.

Piperdiva
February 24th, 2011, 09:46 AM
Holocaust Denial in Arab countries.... Mein Kempf on the bestseller list in Turkey.... Muslims??? What do Muslims have to do with those things? Islam is a peaceful way of life. People who use it as a political banner under which to propogate hatred and murder are criminals, not Muslims. I am an African Cherokee German American Muslim. And now [I]I'm[I] offended.

I think she was talking about how so many people think all Muslim countries are located in the Middle East, and the people are all Arabic. It drives me crazy when the news keeps referring Egypt and Libya as being in the Middle East, when they are really in North Africa.

Chamy
February 24th, 2011, 10:45 AM
Half my ancestry is jewish, and me and my brother are actually the first generation in my family lacking those jewlicious locks. I would have loved to have my grandmothers curls, my moms are more drawn out, but hers are tightly coiled and beautiful black.

3azza
February 24th, 2011, 11:10 AM
I think she was talking about how so many people think all Muslim countries are located in the Middle East, and the people are all Arabic. It drives me crazy when the news keeps referring Egypt and Libya as being in the Middle East, when they are really in North Africa.

Egypt is in the middle east. The Middle East includes all Asian Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain,Yemen, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine), Egypt, Turkey, Cyprus, Israel, Iran.

Luna12345
February 24th, 2011, 11:15 AM
Egypt is in the middle east. The Middle East includes all Asian Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain,Yemen, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine), Egypt, Turkey, Cyprus, Israel, Iran.

Egypt is in the continent of Africa, not Asia:)
And Turkey is Eurasian....because it's part of europe and Asia

kschr2004
February 24th, 2011, 11:22 AM
Actually, Wikipedia states the following:

Egypt, officially the Arab Republic of Egypt, is a country mainly in North Africa, with the Sinai Peninsula forming a land bridge in Southwest Asia. Egypt is thus a transcontinental country, and a major power in Africa, the Mediterranean region, the Middle East and the Islamic world. Covering an area of about 1,010,000 square kilometers (390,000 sq mi), Egypt is bordered by the Mediterranean Sea to the north, the Gaza Strip and Israel to the northeast, the Red Sea to the east, Sudan to the south and Libya to the west.

So I guess you are both right? Egypt is in both Africa and Asia.

3azza
February 24th, 2011, 11:29 AM
Egypt is in the continent of Africa, not Asia:)
And Turkey is Eurasian....because it's part of europe and Asia
I did not mention Egypt is in Asia. The Asian Arab countries are the ones included in paranthesis only. Same thing for Turkey or Iran or Israel or Cyprus, i did not mention they are Arab Asian countries as they are not included in the paranthesis.

Twarg
February 24th, 2011, 12:47 PM
Please T_T More hair.

sweetiepie
February 24th, 2011, 12:49 PM
Those pictures in that article are beautiful. I like that type of curls. I am not of Jewish ethnicity though (but curly and suffering).

11eleven
February 24th, 2011, 01:53 PM
Well Sweetiepie, if you have curly hair than you know what that means...

SURPRISE!!! you're Jewish!

I just couldn't resist :smirk:

ktani
February 24th, 2011, 01:53 PM
This thread has affirmed one thing. Curly hair can be as beautiful as any other hair type.

All types of hair can be beautiful and should be celebrated, in my opinion. It is about how it is cared for and worn.

Bonkers57
February 24th, 2011, 02:07 PM
I'm afraid it's a lost cause, Monkie :( I've been spending more time on the word games.




Can we just lighten the mood for a bit? This is the 'Mane' Forum. Not the Socioeconomicalculturaldialogueracerelations forum.:knit:

1953Diygal
February 24th, 2011, 02:12 PM
I'm just waiting for Godwin's Law to rear its ugly head. :drama:

Islandgrrl
February 24th, 2011, 02:22 PM
I think that's a couple pages back, 1953Diygal. :bigeyes:

1953Diygal
February 24th, 2011, 02:26 PM
I think that's a couple pages back, 1953Diygal. :bigeyes:

So it is. You know, I was listening to that Lenny Bruce bit where he talks about going on the Steve Allen show and it reminded me a little of this thread. I tried searching online for transcripts but couldn't.

11eleven
February 24th, 2011, 02:46 PM
The ideologies of Hitler and the Nazi party actually play a huge part in my reactions to this post. There is not one person who supports this thread that can clarify how promoting stereotypes that helped to set people who were Jewish apart from others during that era as well as today is beneficial. Let's remember how propaganda in the form of visual images was used to spread hate and to strip Jewish people of their humanity in the eyes of others. Stereotypes are never a good thing. Reach out and speak with survivors of the holocaust and get their perspective on this issue. I bet their attitudes are not as cavalier as some on this board.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_ph.php?ModuleId=10005202&MediaId=819

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jayseverin.org/Quickstart/ImageLib/anti-jewish-propaganda-256x300.gif&imgrefurl=http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/2567&usg=__LhiE9xt_d35tGpIp0juY49PKnUE=&h=300&w=256&sz=18&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=3s1JpWS4PcDPEM:&tbnh=125&tbnw=108&ei=HdBmTa-PGoKglAfCz-D-AQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djewish%2Bpropaganda%2Bimages%26hl%3De n%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DezO%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D640%26bih%3D298%26tbs%3Disch:1 %26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=245&vpy=-40&dur=1437&hovh=240&hovw=204&tx=193&ty=176&oei=z85mTYGQO8aAlAfU3JyCAg&page=1&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0

colette
February 24th, 2011, 03:02 PM
I truly don't understand this. In the UK people who are of the Jewish religion are described as "Jews" and it is neither a slang term nor deemed to be offensive. It is the same as calling someone a "Christian" or a "Muslim".

Thats exactly what i was thinking, also in the UK, never heard it used as an offensive term!

Piperdiva
February 24th, 2011, 03:48 PM
Actually, Wikipedia states the following:

Egypt, officially the Arab Republic of Egypt, is a country mainly in North Africa, with the Sinai Peninsula forming a land bridge in Southwest Asia. Egypt is thus a transcontinental country, and a major power in Africa, the Mediterranean region, the Middle East and the Islamic world. Covering an area of about 1,010,000 square kilometers (390,000 sq mi), Egypt is bordered by the Mediterranean Sea to the north, the Gaza Strip and Israel to the northeast, the Red Sea to the east, Sudan to the south and Libya to the west.

So I guess you are both right? Egypt is in both Africa and Asia.

Depends on who you think really owns that piece of land:rolleyes:. But I ain't getting into that here.

Nae
February 24th, 2011, 04:33 PM
The concept of the "Middle East" is another social construct much like race itself. Just google "maps of the middle east" many of them will not include all of the same countries.

I have no comment about everything else. I think everyone who has curls has beautiful curls and I will leave it at that. Hugs to all!!!

Think of cheese people!! Mounds of cheese! Tubs of cheese, fountains of cheese!!!

Piperdiva
February 24th, 2011, 05:37 PM
I am quite fond of goat cheese.

ETA; Goats are adorable animals. Personality wise, they are a lot like dogs. I would never eat one. Just saying.

McFearless
February 24th, 2011, 10:09 PM
Come on guys, I can't do all the work

Jesse Eisenberg- from the Social Network, my pick for Best Picture on sunday
http://i53.tinypic.com/fuz9yq.jpg

Must.Know.His.Routine.

Andrew Garfield- from the same film, also the new Spiderman and 1/4 Jewish

http://i54.tinypic.com/2ev5gf8.jpg

He could make us all wigs from his hair.

Sacha Baron Cohen- arab jew
http://i54.tinypic.com/2nnh8n.jpg

He'd learn a few things from our coarse hair thread I bet



Side note: I am a little annoyed with all the whiners in here. Would you have prefered people kept their thoughts to themselves? That doesn't mean they don't exist. By having threads like these people can LEARN about things they otherwise would not know.

Islandgrrl
February 24th, 2011, 10:43 PM
Plenty to be annoyed by.


I think if this thread had been presented with less provocative wording it might not have turned into such an (IMO) trainwreck. Not a dig at the OP. I'm just saying.

McFearless
February 24th, 2011, 11:15 PM
Plenty to be annoyed by.


I think if this thread had been presented with less provocative wording it might not have turned into such an (IMO) trainwreck. Not a dig at the OP. I'm just saying.

I dont think its a trainwreck. It didn't get shut down and people have a better understanding of why some things might be offensive to some. We are all learning.

Plus I got an excuse to post a picture of Andrew Garfield. Life's good.

11eleven
February 24th, 2011, 11:35 PM
I'm not annoyed just completely disgusted!

You all want to see some pictures of rockin' Jewish hair? All right here goes:

http://www.hairfinder.com/celebh/hairstyle-helena-christensen.htm
http://www.hairfinder.com/celebh/hairstyle-halle-berry6.htm
http://www.hairfinder.com/celebc/hairstyle-ciara.htm
http://www.hairfinder.com/celebrityhairstyles/celebrityhair-200705o.htm
http://www.hairfinder.com/celeba/hairstyle-adrienne-bailon.htm
http://www.hairfinder.com/celebj/hairstyle-joss-stone4.htm

The only problem is that these women are NOT Jewish. *GASP.* Well, I guess there goes that theory about Jewish hair, huh?

Here's a definition of stereotyping from the University of Guelph human rights and equity office:

"Stereotyping is the use of categories such as race, ethnicity or religion to gain, process and remember information about others."

And here is the definition for Anti-Semitism:

"Anti-Semitism- is a form of racism that is defined as stereotypes, bias or acts of hositility towards Jewish people or people otherwise identified as Jewish. As a group, people who are Jewish have faced violence, discrimination and harassment of those who would set them apart on the basis of perceived shared characteristics."

You don't like the "whining"??? Too bad! Deal with it! I am proud to be Jewish and refuse to keep quiet. I will voice my opinions when and where I want.

McFearless
February 25th, 2011, 12:09 AM
I'm not annoyed just completely disgusted!

You all want to see some pictures of rockin' Jewish hair? All right here goes:

http://www.hairfinder.com/celebh/hairstyle-helena-christensen.htm
http://www.hairfinder.com/celebh/hairstyle-halle-berry6.htm
http://www.hairfinder.com/celebc/hairstyle-ciara.htm
http://www.hairfinder.com/celebrityhairstyles/celebrityhair-200705o.htm
http://www.hairfinder.com/celeba/hairstyle-adrienne-bailon.htm
http://www.hairfinder.com/celebj/hairstyle-joss-stone4.htm

The only problem is that these women are NOT Jewish. *GASP.* Well, I guess there goes that theory about Jewish hair, huh?

Here's a definition of stereotyping from the University of Guelph human rights and equity office:

"Stereotyping is the use of categories such as race, ethnicity or religion to gain, process and remember information about others."

And here is the definition for Anti-Semitism:

"Anti-Semitism- is a form of racism that is defined as stereotypes, bias or acts of hositility towards Jewish people or people otherwise identified as Jewish. As a group, people who are Jewish have faced violence, discrimination and harassment of those who would set them apart on the basis of perceived shared characteristics."

You don't like the "whining"??? Too bad! Deal with it! I am proud to be Jewish and refuse to keep quiet. I will voice my opinions when and where I want.

That stereotype has been proven wrong by multiple people in this thread, me included. The pictures on top of that do the same to blow the stereotype. I've posted Jews from all over the world who are fully Jewish, 1/2, 1/4 etc. They all have different hair types on top of that.

Nobody in this thread has said anti-semitic statements. This thread has proved to be positive in that it has been informative so no I don't appreciate those who are whining about its existance.

"I am proud to be Jewish and refuse to keep quiet".
You make it seem as if that is something discouraged.

11eleven
February 25th, 2011, 02:04 AM
The title itself promotes the stereotyping of Jewish people which has helped and continues to help promote Anti-Semitism. It's very illuminating to see who adamantly insists that this is appropriate. I would hope that most people would have enough intelligence or at least empathy to understand how hurtful this is, especially after reading other peoples posts who find it offensive. When the expression of "whining" is applied to people who are speaking up against this type of racialization, stereotyping and anti-semetic prepetuating discourse, it is a way to dismiss, diminish and make light of legitimate concerns and hurts. It is an easy way out to not have to question and confront or to maintain the belief system.

Of course being Jewish and proud of who I am is not something that I discourage, nor do I make it seem that way. If it suits you to twist the words around that I have written, go right ahead. I understand fully well what you are trying to accomplish. I forgive you ;)

estherbeth
February 25th, 2011, 02:34 AM
It startles me a bit when the young'uns say "Oh, that's so gay!", even though the word doesn't have the same connotation for them - it's like saying something is lame or stupid.

Sorry to make yet another off-topic post here, but. Saying "that's so gay" doesn't have a simple definition as 'lame or stupid' - it does come from an obvious homophobic origin, no matter how much the kids who love that put-down claim it just means that the thing they're directing it at is bad or lame. That phrase grates on my nerves something awful. When someone says something along that line around me, I walk away from them the same way I walk away from racist jerks. I find that it does nothing to tell them it's a hateful remark. If someone has a habit of saying it, they don't care that it's hurtful and offensive.

To be slightly more on-topic - I have Jewish heritage (Ashkenazi, through my maternal grandmother), but my features are all Celtic because of so many gentiles marrying into the family tree. When my grandmother's parents emigrated from Russia, they moved into an area with a high concentration of Celts. My grandmother married an Irishman and my mother married a Scot (well, Scot/Cree). As much as I love being a freckly redhead, it kinda makes me sad, too, because my relatives don't even acknowledge our heritage.

pepperminttea
February 25th, 2011, 02:50 AM
It startles me a bit when the young'uns say "Oh, that's so gay!", even though the word doesn't have the same connotation for them - it's like saying something is lame or stupid.

There are people trying to change that. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS0GVOQPs0) :)

Twarg
February 25th, 2011, 06:07 AM
Here's an idea, to prevent people from using this term and accidentally offending people (do we really want to become another forum with long and deceptive threads that you have to sift through?) how about we coin a term for this kind of hair instead for use on LHC?

If you think using this term is negative, then create a new one for people to use! Over here in Australia we have a native plant we, for years and years, called a Black Boy because most people knew no better. Now it's called a Grass Tree.

I was always taught not to complain about something if I wasn't going to offer a solution. I'm certain the original posters intent was to create a short yet descriptive thread title. Would 'Whose rockin' some ringlety, puffy, course, thick, moppy, triangular and unruly, white-fro hair' have been a very good title? Too wordy and any one word is not descriptive enough of the hair she means.

So, who is on board to help avoid this mess again? And I say mess not because of the nature of the debate (I agree with learning and growing but another thread somewhere more appropriate than the Mane forum should have been started) but the fact that this thread is 21 pages long and very few posts have photos or experiences of having this particular hair type. It's meant to be a light subject.

I've left many a forum because I've had to spend ages finding relevant posts to the subject title which caught my interest. 'Debates' and off thread-subject posts are usually banned on regular threads or at all in forums I've been on for a good reason. Arguments and most importantly forum clutter which becomes a pain in the butt.

Having said all of that, I don't personally have any ideas for a new term, but I'd love to hear your suggestions! :)

Ima finish on a photo of some awesome ___ hair:

Wolfmother frontman Andrew Stockdale:

http://misociety.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Andrew-Stockdale-Wolfmother.JPG

I had a friend that had some lovely ____ hair and I'm so pleased that he loved it! So many don't for some reason :( My Mum also had hair like it back in the day :)

3azza
February 25th, 2011, 06:23 AM
This thread has affirmed one thing. Curly hair can be as beautiful as any other hair type.

All types of hair can be beautiful and should be celebrated, in my opinion. It is about how it is cared for and worn.

Yes, true, beauty has countelss forms and so does beautiful hair.
I'm rockin' mine, although i'm not Jewish but my genes are typical semitic.

Islandgrrl
February 25th, 2011, 07:10 AM
There *is*a term for "this type" of hair. It's called CURLY.

11eleven
February 25th, 2011, 07:26 AM
Loviatar made a wonderful suggestion as to what the name of this thread should be:
"Would it be easier and less offensive for the mods to change the thread title again, to: ' Article on Jewlicious.com website about curly hair' ?

On another note this is not a light subject to many, hence the reactions and discussions. I would also argue that Jewish hair is not an accurate description for the thread title as there is NO such thing as Jewish hair!!! This is also the perfect thread to discuss these issues due to the title, the article and tone of certain posts. I'm delighted to see that there are those who wont remain silent!

What you deem to be clutter might just be what another person needed to read. Perhaps they learned something, or perhaps some of the kind words that where written and the show of solidarity brightened someones day. On the flipside what I deem to be pure garbage (clutter) seems to capture the attention of you as well as other posters. Threads do not have to remain static, and can, and sometimes should evolve. Kind of like how when some people gain knowledge or are exposed to different paradigms they gain a sense of understanding and their humanity evolves.

The one thing that I was always taught growing up is that if something is hurtful to someone, especially to a group of people who have experienced brutality, condemnation etc. the best course of action is to look outside of my social location, examine my own privleges and work towards educating myself as well as rectifying the situation.

Do we really want to be a forum that promotes and condones stereotypes? Do we really want to become a forum that people find unwelcoming?

If anyone can clarify how curly hair is somehow an indicator of a Jewish person or how stereotyping people contributes to anything worthwhile I would love to read about it.

elbow chic
February 25th, 2011, 07:32 AM
I think there is kind of a Jewish "look" but not all Jews have it. I'm twenty nine and was talking to an older friend of the family about my snood.

"You have this Jewish mother thing going on today" he joked. "But you're too blond, you don't really look Jewish. They have this look, you know, with the nose... and that ACCENT."

I said "yeah, I know what you mean. I met a Jew from South Carolina who had "the look" but had the loooongest Southern drawl you ever heard when she opened her mouth. You'd laugh. Sweet girl."

And he was instantly extremely uncomfortable, because of the word "Jew."

THAT made him uncomfortable, not the actual content of the conversation, since he was the one who started it. Evidently you can say whatever you want about them as long as you say JewISH and not "Jew." ha!

Nae
February 25th, 2011, 07:39 AM
I have also had people ask if I am Jewish. I have dark curly-wurly hair and a prominent nose. I have no Jewish ancestry that I know of but frankly I figure we are all related to each other at some point. So I never thought too much about it.

I always said that no, I was not Jewish. I wasn't ever offended by it, but now that I think about it it was definately a stereotype they were trying to shove me into. I guess I didn't fit, but neither do many Jewish folks. I guess I will just shrug it off as expanding minds by not fitting into their stereotypes.

11eleven
February 25th, 2011, 08:11 AM
Thank you kindly Elbow Chic for illustrating so wonderfully for us all how stereotypes promote the exclusion of people as well as ignorance and sheer stupidity.

elbow chic
February 25th, 2011, 08:15 AM
Hey, no prob.

LeaM07
February 25th, 2011, 08:56 AM
Is it possible that the inherent offense of stereotypes, in some part, is why the subject is coming up in this way in the first place? If you have what the article is calling "Jewish" hair, do you feel like you've suffered prejudice for it? It's true that Jewish people can have any kind of hair and that curlies can have all sorts of religions (or none), but judging from the articles linked throughout this thread, there still seems to be a popular connection, right or wrong. Perhaps speaking out and "rockin' it", so-to-speak, is a small step for these people toward a more positive (albeit still not ideal) outlook? I read the original question as something like, "Who here has what people stereotypically call "Jewish" hair and despite the negative connotations of stereotypes like this, is happy with it anyway?" Is there an underlying "let's support each other and not be ashamed of the way we look" element in the original article/post? It would certainly be better to not have stereotypes at all, but maybe the people who are being stereotyped need to be able to talk about it in order to deal with it and overcome the baggage that comes with that?

I've learned a few things myself from this thread, not knowing many Jewish people IRL. I think discussions like this can be good opportunities to really put ourselves in others' shoes and think about why they feel the way they do. :grouphug:

(Just my own thoughts, by the way... not a mod post. ;))

Piperdiva
February 25th, 2011, 10:33 AM
This thread is driving me insane.

1. Judaism is a RELIGION people. NOT a race. There is no such thing as being 1/2 Jewish, 1/4 Jewish, etc. Can a person be 1/2 Christian? Make sense?

2. Since it is a religion one can covert into, and people have done so all over the world for many many years, you will find Jewish people with a wide array of hair types, skin color, eye color, etc.

3. Maybe we should start a "Let's rock some Christian hair " thread. Seems quite ridiculous, doesn't it?

ktani
February 25th, 2011, 10:41 AM
Yes, true, beauty has countelss forms and so does beautiful hair.
I'm rockin' mine, although i'm not Jewish but my genes are typical semitic.

You certainly are and it is gorgeous!

Nastasia
February 25th, 2011, 11:26 AM
You know what upsets me most on this thread? All the people telling me that my ethnicity doesn't exist. Piperdiva, have you thought about just how wrong it is to tell someone that? Yes, I am ethnically Jewish. I've never been religious in my life, and neither were my parents, but that doesn't make me any less Jewish. I'm sorry if that upsets your narrow definitions of what ethnicity and religion can be.

sweetiepie
February 25th, 2011, 11:32 AM
Come on, there is Jewish ethnicity. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) agrees with me. I think it's okay to start an ethnic hair thread.

McFearless
February 25th, 2011, 12:12 PM
The title itself promotes the stereotyping of Jewish people which has helped and continues to help promote Anti-Semitism. It's very illuminating to see who adamantly insists that this is appropriate. I would hope that most people would have enough intelligence or at least empathy to understand how hurtful this is, especially after reading other peoples posts who find it offensive. When the expression of "whining" is applied to people who are speaking up against this type of racialization, stereotyping and anti-semetic prepetuating discourse, it is a way to dismiss, diminish and make light of legitimate concerns and hurts. It is an easy way out to not have to question and confront or to maintain the belief system.

Of course being Jewish and proud of who I am is not something that I discourage, nor do I make it seem that way. If it suits you to twist the words around that I have written, go right ahead. I understand fully well what you are trying to accomplish. I forgive you ;)

I don't think you understand what I was trying to say. We've established that the stereotype is wrong. That happened on the first page. We are past it now. Now we are at a point where people have a better understanding. When I say the whining is getting a little annoying it is because I've tried to steer the thread in another direction completely, doing what LisaMonster wanted but with a twist. I've posted pics of a redhead, straight haired person, wavy, curly, etc and I was just about to post a pic of a fine-haired blonde.They are all Jewish. I am not "diminishing concerns" as you say, but helping this thread evolve and move on to the point the thread title is very appropriate. Whos rockin some Jewish hair? Well every Jew I posted is rocking some Jewish hair and its all different types of hair. Is that not a good ending to what most people thought would be a full-on arguement?

As far as "Of course being Jewish and proud of who I am is not something that I discourage, nor do I make it seem that way"

Perhaps you'd like to read what I wrote again. I never said that. I said you make it seem as if being proud to be jewish is discouraged in this thread. Very different from saying that you discourage it. Very different. That wouldn't make sense. So no, I don't think you get what I am trying to accomplish. And I don't need your forgiveness, for I've done nothing wrong.

wvgemini
February 25th, 2011, 12:12 PM
This thread is driving me insane.

1. Judaism is a RELIGION people. NOT a race. There is no such thing as being 1/2 Jewish, 1/4 Jewish, etc. Can a person be 1/2 Christian? Make sense?




You are incorrect. Judaism is consided an ethnicity as well as a religion. Judaism is the only religion that is also considered a race. Please, do a little research.

Luna12345
February 25th, 2011, 12:15 PM
This thread is driving me insane.

1. Judaism is a RELIGION people. NOT a race. There is no such thing as being 1/2 Jewish, 1/4 Jewish, etc. Can a person be 1/2 Christian? Make sense?

2. Since it is a religion one can covert into, and people have done so all over the world for many many years, you will find Jewish people with a wide array of hair types, skin color, eye color, etc.

3. Maybe we should start a "Let's rock some Christian hair " thread. Seems quite ridiculous, doesn't it?

I totally agree, I have two Jewish friends who come from Nigeria. Would they fall under this threads Jewish LOOK category....I wouldn't think so. How can Jewish be a race????
If it's a race then explain why there is such a thing as Iraqi jews, nigerian jews, morrocan jews?????
I'm sorry I'm not trying to say this thread is bad but I just think it doesn't make sense.

McFearless
February 25th, 2011, 12:17 PM
This thread is driving me insane.

1. Judaism is a RELIGION people. NOT a race. There is no such thing as being 1/2 Jewish, 1/4 Jewish, etc. Can a person be 1/2 Christian? Make sense?



Hey Piperdiva, you're talking about me right? I think I'm the only one in recent pages who has said 1/2 Jewish, 1/4 Jewish.

Anyway I was talking about actors and I said it not because Judaism is a race since we all know it isn't. Those people are 1/2 Jewish, 1/4 Jewish because their dad is practicing while their mom could be a Christian or Agnostic.

Luna12345
February 25th, 2011, 12:24 PM
If you want to talk about judaism as though it's a race you should look back to where jews originated . The Middle east, isn't that where jewish people originally came from, i mean Abraham???....so would you say that middle eastern people today are rocking jewish hair? you see how this thread makes no sense to many.

Melisande
February 25th, 2011, 12:26 PM
Piperdiva, as I said some pages ago:

1. there is no Jewish race. There are no races at all. There is only a HUMAN race.

2. Jews are a people.

3. Jews are a people who share a religion, just like Druze and Circissian. UNlike Americans or French who have all kinds of religions, and UNlike Christians or Muslims who have all kinds of nationalities.

Why is it so difficult to grasp that there are people whose way of defining themselves is different from your own?

Islandgrrl
February 25th, 2011, 12:26 PM
Hey Piperdiva, you're talking about me right? I think I'm the only one in recent pages who has said 1/2 Jewish, 1/4 Jewish.

Anyway I was talking about actors and I said it not because Judaism is a race since we all know it isn't. Those people are 1/2 Jewish, 1/4 Jewish because their dad is practicing while their mom could be a Christian or Agnostic.

"Jewishness" is passes matrilineally. Meaning you are Jewish if you are born to a Jewish woman. So there is technically no such thing as part Jewish. Jewish law is very clear on this point. If you have a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother you are, according to Halacha (Jewish Law), not Jewish. Even if you are practicing Judaism, you would need to convert to be considered a Jew.

Nastasia
February 25th, 2011, 12:27 PM
Dear Gentiles,

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it's wrong. It is practically antisemitic to say that there's no such thing as a Jewish people. It is probably most correct to say that there are a group of related Jewish ethnicities.

I am sorry if I am being harsh, but I have been stewing about this for days.

Thanks,
--Nastasia

McFearless
February 25th, 2011, 12:29 PM
If you want to talk about judaism as though it's a race you should look back to where jews originated . The Middle east, isn't that where jewish people originally came from, i mean Abraham???....so would you say that middle eastern people today are rocking jewish hair? you see how this thread makes no sense to many.

Are you talking to me? I'm the only person who wrote after you and before this post so I'm pretty sure you are but I can't be sure.

sweetiepie
February 25th, 2011, 12:30 PM
So, who's gonna get roasted for inflammatory posts? :D

McFearless
February 25th, 2011, 12:32 PM
"Jewishness" is passes matrilineally. Meaning you are Jewish if you are born to a Jewish woman. So there is technically no such thing as part Jewish. Jewish law is very clear on this point. If you have a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother you are, according to Halacha (Jewish Law), not Jewish. Even if you are practicing Judaism, you would need to convert to be considered a Jew.

I can't knock how someone wants to identify regardless if I think its accurate or not. Also when I said their "dad" in some cases it was their "mom".

Luna12345
February 25th, 2011, 12:34 PM
Are you talking to me? I'm the only person who wrote after you and before this post so I'm pretty sure you are but I can't be sure.

no just about the name of this thread in general, "who's rocking jewish hair"
makes it sound like it's a race and not a religeon.

McFearless
February 25th, 2011, 12:34 PM
So, who's gonna get roasted for inflammatory posts? :D

I was just going to post the pic in your avatar! how weird.

McFearless
February 25th, 2011, 12:38 PM
no just about the name of this thread in general, "who's rocking jewish hair"
makes it sound like it's a race and not a religeon.

Well she wanted to see pics of the hair described in the article so yeah that is kinky-curly dark hair. So she was being specific but the title wasn't specific but very general so it enforced a stereotype. But she has since clarified. You are right it is a religion and Jews come from Morocco, Palestine, various countries in Africa, Europe, South America, etc etc

kitschy
February 25th, 2011, 12:38 PM
Even though I should know better than to post on this thread, I'm going to.

The Cohanim - DNA Connection (http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48936742.html)

My father carries the Cohanim patrialinical genetic marker, even though he was by religion a Mormon.

Islandgrrl
February 25th, 2011, 12:42 PM
So, who's gonna get roasted for inflammatory posts? :D

Provocative much? I'm sorry, but that's neither constructive nor contributory to rational, civil discussion.

LisaMonster
February 25th, 2011, 12:46 PM
Carry on if you really think you're still discussing things... but I'm pretty sure that this thread has gone in every possible direction it could have gone, and no one is going to change anyone's mind about anything, so I would like to humbly suggest that the dead horse be allowed to die.

Piperdiva
February 25th, 2011, 04:02 PM
You know what upsets me most on this thread? All the people telling me that my ethnicity doesn't exist. Piperdiva, have you thought about just how wrong it is to tell someone that? Yes, I am ethnically Jewish. I've never been religious in my life, and neither were my parents, but that doesn't make me any less Jewish. I'm sorry if that upsets your narrow definitions of what ethnicity and religion can be.

Definition of ethnicity, as per Wiki: An ethnic group is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed- sharing cultural characteristics. This shared heritage may be based upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, religion, language, shared territory ...

I NEVER said Judaism is not an ethnicity. I see myself as ethnic Jewish. I said it's not a race. You cannot convert into a race.

Twarg
February 25th, 2011, 09:31 PM
3azza, you have a beautiful head of hair. I love how the ringlets get tighter toward the ends :) Can't imagine how much conditioner you go through, hehe!

3azza
February 26th, 2011, 04:58 AM
Thank you Ktani and Twarq :)
Twarq: I don't use bottles of conditioner, i use gallons!

Nae
February 26th, 2011, 06:28 AM
That is a really interesting study Kitschy! Perhaps there is an idea of the "Jewish Race" because the Jewish people are the most interesting stories of a diaspora ever told. They started from a small tribe in the Middle East and somehow were able to hang onto their culture and religion in the face of insane obstacles. Truly amazing.

EDT: Somehow I posted this before I was quite finished.

At any rate, they are a beautiful example of the human family. Starting with Abraham this family has circled the world countless times, added new members and in-laws and are still largely related if you go back far enough. It is wonderful.

kmoc123
February 26th, 2011, 08:42 AM
I guess I am a wanna be Jew...wanting to convert, I am adopted and maybe, just maybe I am already Jewish and don't know...my hair is pretty straight....

CavyQueen
February 26th, 2011, 09:10 AM
I am an Ashkenazi Jew and my hair is straight. I wish I had some beautiful "Jewish Hair." My cousin had those gorgeous curls and she got a KERATIN treatment! I was so upset! I guess you are never happy with what you have. However, even with my straight hair, I am very proud of my heritage!

Gladtobemom
February 26th, 2011, 09:35 AM
Twarq: I don't use bottles of conditioner, i use gallons!

:rollin:

Whatever you are doing . . . it certainly works. Your hair is GORGEOUS!

11eleven
February 26th, 2011, 09:48 AM
Mcfearless...perhaps you forgot to write IN THIS THREAD in regard to your original comment. I can only assume it was done unintentionally. Perhaps you need to re-read what you wrote. :cheese: