Coconut oil does not penetrate hair........

[Belgravia]

........only when freshly washed according to this PDF i saw on here http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2...175-p00192.pdf (http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2003/cc054n02/p00175-p00192.pdf)

now i always thought coconut oil penetrated hair REGARDLESS apparently thats not the case


So my question is if this is correct what is the point of doing ''oiling' if none of it will be penetrated and just sit on the surface wouldnt that mean you could use any oil for the ''oiling''?.....ie slap some mineral oil on there and keep it movinghttp://st1m.longhaircareforum.com/images/smilies/perplexed.gif


it contradicts all what i thought coconut oil was MEANT to do with regular oiling

i LOVE coconut oil and used it exclusively while stretching relaxer for a year and a half and my hair stayed intact surely if the oil was merely sitting on top of my hair strand and NOT penetrating/strengthening my hair would have all snapped offhttp://st1m.longhaircareforum.com/images/smilies/perplexed.gif

because in therory if it does not penetrate when used after shampooing its no different to MINERAL OIL http://st1m.longhaircareforum.com/images/smilies/look.gif

thoughts anyone?

[Lemur_Catta]

Uhm, the pdf actually says that coconut oil penetrates the hair shaft, and that used as a pre-wash treatment it prevents the swelling of the shaft so that the cuticles don't lie upwards and get damaged. I think I don't really understand what you mean?

[BunnyBee]

Well it makes sense that proteins can only penetrate the hair shaft when there is a way for them to get in - such as after washing when the cuticle is slightly raised. However, my purpose for oiling is simply for detangling and softness, which could be provided by mineral oil certainly, if it weren't for the fact that mineral oil builds up on the hair and can be incredibly difficult to remove. Thus my reason for using coconut oil (or olive in the winter). Besides also using it as a body moisturiser and removing makeup!

[ktani]

........only when freshly washed according to this PDF i saw on here http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2...175-p00192.pdf (http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2003/cc054n02/p00175-p00192.pdf)

now i always thought coconut oil penetrated hair REGARDLESS apparently thats not the case


So my question is if this is correct what is the point of doing ''oiling' if none of it will be penetrated and just sit on the surface wouldnt that mean you could use any oil for the ''oiling''?.....ie slap some mineral oil on there and keep it movinghttp://st1m.longhaircareforum.com/images/smilies/perplexed.gif

it contradicts all what i thought coconut oil was MEANT to do with regular oiling

i LOVE coconut oil and used it exclusively while stretching relaxer for a year and a half and my hair stayed intact surely if the oil was merely sitting on top of my hair strand and NOT penetrating/strengthening my hair would have all snapped offhttp://st1m.longhaircareforum.com/images/smilies/perplexed.gif

because in therory if it does not penetrate when used after shampooing its no different to MINERAL OIL http://st1m.longhaircareforum.com/images/smilies/look.gif

thoughts anyone?

Welcome to LHC!

Coconut oil outperformed both sunflower oil and mineral oil as a post-wash grooming aid, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1359681&postcount=594, Page 1 of the pdf.

[Belgravia]

Uhm, the pdf actually says that coconut oil penetrates the hair shaft, and that used as a pre-wash treatment it prevents the swelling of the shaft so that the cuticles don't lie upwards and get damaged. I think I don't really understand what you mean?



i know the post says it used as prewash

however what im saying is many cultures use''oiling''several times a week with coconut oil

so if its not strenghting/penetrating hair in the''oiling''sessions what is the point of using it

if all its doing is sitting on the hair strand AFTER you shampoo .....in theory you could use mineral oil for the ''oiling''


Well it makes sense that proteins can only penetrate the hair shaft when there is a way for them to get in - such as after washing when the cuticle is slightly raised. However, my purpose for oiling is simply for detangling and softness, which could be provided by mineral oil certainly, if it weren't for the fact that mineral oil builds up on the hair and can be incredibly difficult to remove. Thus my reason for using coconut oil (or olive in the winter). Besides also using it as a body moisturiser and removing makeup!


Thanks bunnybee


Welcome to LHC!

Coconut oil outperformed both sunflower oil and mineral oil as a post-wash grooming aid, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1359681&postcount=594, Page 1 of the pdf.

Thanks for the welome:)

[enfys]

My phones pdf reader removed all the spaces and even I was able to read that coconut oil was the only oil able to penetrate the hair and prevent protein loss when used as a pre and as a post wash treatment.

What did you read?

[ktani]

i know the post says it used as prewash

however what im saying is many cultures use''oiling''several times a week with coconut oil

so if its not strenghting/penetrating hair in the''oiling''sessions what is the point of using it

if all its doing is sitting on the hair strand AFTER you shampoo .....in theory you could use mineral oil for the ''oiling''

The research was detailing the benefits of coconut oil as a pre-wash and as a post-wash oil exactly because if its traditional use history, in comparison to other oils used the same ways.

It concluded that coconut oil has superior benefits for both applications. Used as a grooming product, coconut oil effectively reduces friction by lubricating the hair.

I think that the reported problems using it this way come from a too heavy and repeated application of it.

Yes, there are other oils that can be used for the same purpose that are not as greasy. Mineral and sunflower oils were not shown to have the same benefits though, used the same way. Mineral oil does have a place in hair care, in my opinion. It depends on what one is using it for exactly (a small amount can be used on the hair to increase shine for example, and has been reported to work well for that).

[aenflex]

I put it in my hair and hours later it's all but gone. So I think it's got to be going somewhere?

I also use it heavily the night before washing and in my leave-in after washing so I think I'm covered either way :)

[luxepiggy]

i know the post says it used as prewash

however what im saying is many cultures use''oiling''several times a week with coconut oil

so if its not strenghting/penetrating hair in the''oiling''sessions what is the point of using it

if all its doing is sitting on the hair strand AFTER you shampoo .....in theory you could use mineral oil for the ''oiling''

Not true! Have a look at this article from another issue of the same publication: http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2005/cc056n05/p00283-p00295.pdf

From page 294 of the article linked above:

. . . mineral oil does not diffuse into hair because it is nonpolar . . . lack of affinity seems to prevent it from diffusing into hair. Vegetable oils, on the other hand, consist of triglyceride m olecules in which three fatty acid molecules are
naturally esterified to the three hydroxyl groups of a glycerol b ackbone. For example, coconut oil is rich in lauric acid (C-12 triglyceride), whereas in sunflower oil linoleic acid (C-18:2 triglyceride) is predominant. Because of its polar character, coconut oil seems to have an affinity toward protein molecules in the CMCs, and, therefore, this oil penetrates more readily into hair fibers compared to mineral oil.

ETA: As far as I can ascertain, the oil in the linked paper was applied to dry hair, with readings taken immediately after application and then 24 hours later to determine how much, if any, of the oil had penetrated the hair in question.

[Debra83]

Below is the conclusion - it says it DOES penetrate the hair, and it is the only pre-wash oil too that does it. I don't think you read it right. (for some reason that's how it copied and pasted, but if you click on it and go down to the conclusion, it'll be there!)


CONCLUSIONS
This studyh asf irmly establishetdh e superiorityo f the protectivee ffecto f coconuto il
on hair damage in grooming processews hen it is used as a pre-wash conditionera s
compared to mineral oil and other vegetable oils such as sunflower oil. It not only has
a protectivee ffecto n undamagedh air but alsoo n chemicallyt reatedh air, UV-treated
hair, and hair treated with boiling water (i.e., hair in water at 100øC for 2 hr). The
ability of coconuot il to penetratein to hair cuticlea nd cortexs eemsto be responsiblfeo r
this effect.C oatedo n the fiber surfacei,t can prevento r reducet he amount of water
penetratingi nto the fiber and reducet he swelling.T his, in turn, reducesth e lifting of
the surfacec uticle and preventsi t from being chippeda way during wet combing.A
reductionin the WRI is additionale videnceo f its efficacyin decreasinwg ater absorption.
The datap resentedin thisw ork clearlys howt he superiorityo f coconuot il asa hair
damage protectant, in the grooming of untreated or damaged hair.

[ktani]

Below is the conclusion - it says it DOES penetrate the hair, and it is the only pre-wash oil too that does it. I don't think you read it right. (for some reason that's how it copied and pasted, but if you click on it and go down to the conclusion, it'll be there!)


CONCLUSIONS
This studyh asf irmly establishetdh e superiorityo f the protectivee ffecto f coconuto il
on hair damage in grooming processews hen it is used as a pre-wash conditionera s
compared to mineral oil and other vegetable oils such as sunflower oil. It not only has
a protectivee ffecto n undamagedh air but alsoo n chemicallyt reatedh air, UV-treated
hair, and hair treated with boiling water (i.e., hair in water at 100øC for 2 hr). The
ability of coconuot il to penetratein to hair cuticlea nd cortexs eemsto be responsiblfeo r
this effect.C oatedo n the fiber surfacei,t can prevento r reducet he amount of water
penetratingi nto the fiber and reducet he swelling.T his, in turn, reducesth e lifting of
the surfacec uticle and preventsi t from being chippeda way during wet combing.A
reductionin the WRI is additionale videnceo f its efficacyin decreasinwg ater absorption.
The datap resentedin thisw ork clearlys howt he superiorityo f coconuot il asa hair
damage protectant, in the grooming of untreated or damaged hair.

I stand by my interpretation, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1359681&postcount=594. "In post-wash application the oil film is on the surface with no penetration into the fiber." (Page 15 of the pdf). The pre-wash coating of the coconut oil penetrates into the hair only during shampooing.

The pdf text does do this when copied and pasted and has to be patiently fixed. I had the same problem.

[Belgravia]

i know coconut oil penetrates hair when used as a prewash

however im talking about it not penetrating when used after shampooing which is what the PDF implies

[nytquill]

Different oils do different things to hair, depending on whether they are drying, semidrying or non drying. Even if they don't penetrate the hair, drying and semidrying oils can still be damaging to hair (in fact very damaging) and nondrying oils are not.

And you are still getting protection, slip, and shine from the oil. Just because it's not penetrating the hair shaft doesn't mean it's not doing anything for your hair or that there's no point in using it.

There is also the "weight" or greasiness of the oil. For some hair types, olive oil is too heavy and weighs down the hair, making it look greasy or lank, whereas coconut oil is lighter and not as noticeable on the hair. Different people have different results with different oils. Not sure where mineral oil would fall in this spectrum.

Just because an oil doesn't penetrate the hair doesn't mean it's the same or has the same effects as any other oil - that it doesn't matter what oil you use, in other words. The chemical makeup is still different and thus the chemical action will be different as well.

Also you have to keep in mind that what is traditionally used in one culture or another depends on what was traditionally available. Many cultures use coconut oil mainly because the coconuts to make it from were readily available - but not olives, or the jojoba plant, or oil refineries that produce mineral oil as a byproduct. Or commercial conditioners to provide slip, shine, and protection. Coconut oil provided these benefits at a time when there was no other way to get them - thus it became traditional to use it and people in those cultures still use it because it is traditional. Just like Westerners use commercial products not because we have to but because it's traditional and makes our hair look the same as other people's hair around us - socially normal in other words.

Just because a particular culture does something doesn't necessarily mean there is a point to it or a particular benefit, it just means this is what that culture does. However in the case of coconut oil I think the research is pretty solid that there IS a point/particular benefit that can be appreciated by other cultures as well. I just mean that "some cultures do this" isn't necessarily good logic to go by.

[Belgravia]

I put it in my hair and hours later it's all but gone. So I think it's got to be going somewhere?

I also use it heavily the night before washing and in my leave-in after washing so I think I'm covered either way :)


same here i do regular oilings and my hair never stays oily it must be doing more than sitting on the strands

[ktani]

same here i do regular oilings and my hair never stays oily it must be doing more than sitting on the strands

It is not penetrating the hair shaft though, according to the research.

[aenflex]

So here is the Conclusion statement from the paper cited.
I am drawing away from the Cococnut Oil opinions and asking another question entirely:

After reading this several times, I have determined that water absorption is BAD for the hair? Swelling and rising of cuticle scales due to water absorption is BAD? If that's an accurate conclusion, than the steam machines for the hair would also not be cool? Or no? Help?

This study has firmly established the superiority of the protective effect of coconut oil
on hair damage in grooming processes when it is used as a pre-wash conditioner as
compared to mineral oil and other vegetable oils such as sunflower oil. It not only has
a protective effect on undamaged hair but also on chemically treated hair, UV-treated
hair, and hair treated with boiling water (i.e., hair in water at 100øC for 2 hr). The
ability of coconut oil to penetrate into hair cuticle and cortex seems to be responsible for
this effect. Coated on the fiber surface, it can prevent or reduce the amount of water
penetrating into the fiber and reduce the swelling. This, in turn, reduces the lifting of
the surface cuticle and prevents it from being chipped away during wet combing. A
reduction in the WRI is additional evidence of its efficacy in decreasing water absorp-
tion. The data presented in this work clearly show the superiority of coconut oil as a hair
damage protectant, in the grooming of untreated or damaged hair.


It is not penetrating the hair shaft though, according to the research.

So are you saying that Coconut oil does or does not penetrate? I must be misunderstanding you. I read the PDF, this aint the first time I've seen it, and I draw from the results and summation that yeay, coconut does penetrate. So that's what I'm sticking with :)

[luxepiggy]

It is not penetrating the hair shaft though, according to the research.

I was pretty sure this other research report says that it is . . . am I reading it wrong?

Investigation of penetration abilities of various oils into human hair fibers (http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2005/cc056n05/p00283-p00295.pdf). Journal of the Society of Cosmetic Chemists, K. Keis , D. Persaud , Y. K. Kamath , A. S. Rele. Vol. 56, No. 5, 283-295.

[Debra83]

This is what is says on the bottle, I'm assuming it is true: Olive Oil: Nourishes the inner core; Avocado oil: Nourishes and softens the middle layer; Shea Oil: Nourishes and smooths the surface.
__________________

This is what is on my Garnier Fructis triple nutrition conditioner bottle. Isn't it basically saying that Olive penetrates all the way in, avocado oil gets to the middle layer?

[Belgravia]

Just because a particular culture does something doesn't necessarily mean there is a point to it or a particular benefit, it just means this is what that culture does. However in the case of coconut oil I think the research is pretty solid that there IS a point/particular benefit that can be appreciated by other cultures as well. I just mean that "some cultures do this" isn't necessarily good logic to go by.



no my logic is not that some cultures do this therefore i will do it

my point was regular oilers who use coconut oil some use this oil in particular as they believe it penetrates hair and does make the hair stronger

however the PDF shows a different outome when used after shampooing

i used mineral oil as a example


It is not penetrating the hair shaft though, according to the research.

yes i agree i just find it puzzling as i thought coconut oil ''oiling'' sessions was making my hair stronger

lots of people experience 'demarcation breakage' when growing/stretching a relaxer

i didnt i put it down to my oiling sessions

[ktani]

So are you saying that Coconut oil does or does not penetrate? I must be misunderstanding you. I read the PDF, this aint the first time I've seen it, and I draw from the results and summation that yeay, coconut does penetrate. So that's what I'm sticking with :)

Coconut oil can penetrate the hair to the cortex during shampooing. It does not penetrate the hair used as a grooming aid, nor does any other oil.

However, oils can penetrate hair with the application of heat, which also opens the hair cuticle.

This study, done 2 years after the one quoted, addresses that, http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2003/cc054n02/p00175-p00192.pdf

[lapushka]

because in therory if it does not penetrate when used after shampooing its no different to MINERAL OIL http://st1m.longhaircareforum.com/images/smilies/look.gif

thoughts anyone?


Try washing out regular oil, then try washing out mineral oil. See what you'd like to use next time, the kind that easily washes out, or the grease film that won't go away (my hair had to be washed multiple times).

[ktani]

Different oils do different things to hair, depending on whether they are drying, semidrying or non drying. Even if they don't penetrate the hair, drying and semidrying oils can still be damaging to hair (in fact very damaging) and nondrying oils are not.

And you are still getting protection, slip, and shine from the oil. Just because it's not penetrating the hair shaft doesn't mean it's not doing anything for your hair or that there's no point in using it.

There is also the "weight" or greasiness of the oil. For some hair types, olive oil is too heavy and weighs down the hair, making it look greasy or lank, whereas coconut oil is lighter and not as noticeable on the hair. Different people have different results with different oils. Not sure where mineral oil would fall in this spectrum.

Just because an oil doesn't penetrate the hair doesn't mean it's the same or has the same effects as any other oil - that it doesn't matter what oil you use, in other words. The chemical makeup is still different and thus the chemical action will be different as well.

Also you have to keep in mind that what is traditionally used in one culture or another depends on what was traditionally available. Many cultures use coconut oil mainly because the coconuts to make it from were readily available - but not olives, or the jojoba plant, or oil refineries that produce mineral oil as a byproduct. Or commercial conditioners to provide slip, shine, and protection. Coconut oil provided these benefits at a time when there was no other way to get them - thus it became traditional to use it and people in those cultures still use it because it is traditional. Just like Westerners use commercial products not because we have to but because it's traditional and makes our hair look the same as other people's hair around us - socially normal in other words.

Just because a particular culture does something doesn't necessarily mean there is a point to it or a particular benefit, it just means this is what that culture does. However in the case of coconut oil I think the research is pretty solid that there IS a point/particular benefit that can be appreciated by other cultures as well. I just mean that "some cultures do this" isn't necessarily good logic to go by.

I do not think that drying oils are damaging. They can be more difficult to remove than semidrying and nondrying oils though, for sure and can require repeated clarifying, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=190.

[enfys]

The original article was by the R&D departement of a company that primarily makes it's money from beauty products, and is based in Mumbai.

Is it slightly possible that this is why it favours coconut oil?

/cynicism

[ktani]

The original article was by the R&D departement of a company that primarily makes it's money from beauty products, and is based in Mumbai.

Is it slightly possible that this is why it favours coconut oil?

/cynicism

Any research paper can be challenged on bias. The 2003 one has not been to my knowledge and is listed as peer reviewed, http://www.coconutoil.com/peer_reviewed.htm.


I was pretty sure this other research report says that it is . . . am I reading it wrong?

Investigation of penetration abilities of various oils into human hair fibers (http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2005/cc056n05/p00283-p00295.pdf). Journal of the Society of Cosmetic Chemists, K. Keis , D. Persaud , Y. K. Kamath , A. S. Rele. Vol. 56, No. 5, 283-295.

They used heat, to simulate blowdrying like the other study used shampooing, among other tests. Heat opens the hair cuticles. That is what hot oil treatments are based on.


This is what is says on the bottle, I'm assuming it is true: Olive Oil: Nourishes the inner core; Avocado oil: Nourishes and softens the middle layer; Shea Oil: Nourishes and smooths the surface.
__________________

This is what is on my Garnier Fructis triple nutrition conditioner bottle. Isn't it basically saying that Olive penetrates all the way in, avocado oil gets to the middle layer?

I only wish half of what marketing says is true. I have not seen any studies backing that up. I think that the company would cite them if they exist. I would love to read them.

[luxepiggy]

Any research paper can be challenged on bias. The 2003 one has not been to my knowledge and is listed as peer reviewed, http://www.coconutoil.com/peer_reviewed.htm.



They used heat, to simulate blowdrying like the other study used shampooing, among other tests. Heat opens the hair cuticles. That is what hot oil treatments are based on.

I know they applied heat, which increased absorption, but when I look at Figure 1, and read the associated discussion/analysis, the paper appears to also show that there was some absorption during the period after application but prior to application of heat. Am I interpreting that chart incorrectly?

[Annalouise]

Fascinating. Do any of you add coconut oil to your shampoo or conditioner if doing CO? I guess this is why Indians typically presoaked their hair in coconut oil before washing it with herbs.

[ktani]

Fascinating. Do any of you add coconut oil to your shampoo or conditioner if doing CO? I guess this is why Indians typically presoaked their hair in coconut oil before washing it with herbs.

No doubt. As to your question, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=57025

[AnnaJamila]

Whoa this is confusing!!! @.@

[ktani]

Whoa this is confusing!!! @.@

Not really it is logical. 2 things can open hair cuticles best (aside from chemicals or an alkaline product) - heat and water. When either is used in a certain way and amount, oils have access to the hair structure that they do not without them. Not all oils can penetrate the hair deeply, even then. Coconut oil is the one research says can do that best.

[ktani]

I know they applied heat, which increased absorption, but when I look at Figure 1, and read the associated discussion/analysis, the paper appears to also show that there was some absorption during the period after application but prior to application of heat. Am I interpreting that chart incorrectly?

I found the charts and graphs in both studies to be somewhat confusing.

I do believe that oils, from the text, can be absorbed into hair somewhat but not very much without heat or during shampooing. There was some degree of penetration by the oils without heat, "partial" penetration, not deep penetration. See Page 9 of the pdf on partial penetration of the oils into hair.

[ktani]

Just to spice things up a bit, I forgot I had a study abstract in my research stash.

To recap

2003 Study - coconut oil does not penetrate hair post-wash although it outperformed sunflower oil and mineral oil in both post-wash and pre-wash tests for protein loss.

2005 Study - coconut oil showed evidence of partial penetration of hair after 24 hours with no heat. Page 9

2005 Study, abstract only, http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ics/2005/00000027/00000005/art00017;jsessionid=3cs733irba25o.alexandra
"On the other hand, monounsaturated oils, such as olive oil, with more compact molecular structure seem to penetrate readily into the hair fiber."

Olive oil did not do well in the other 2005 study. Pages 3, 4, 10 and 11. http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2005/cc056n05/p00283-p00295.pdf Facinating!

[christine1989]

I don't know if it penetrates or not all I know is it makes my hair feel AMAZING. :)

[teela1978]

In practical use, wouldn't a post-wash oiling still technically be a pre-wash oiling? I don't see why it would make any difference. Especially if the oil was applied regularly, there would be a layer of oil on the hair once you got around to washing it again.

[spidermom]

In practical use, wouldn't a post-wash oiling still technically be a pre-wash oiling? I don't see why it would make any difference. Especially if the oil was applied regularly, there would be a layer of oil on the hair once you got around to washing it again.

This is what I've been thinking. I like generous pre-wash oiling, and if the washing helps it penetrate, it's all to the good.

[luxepiggy]

Just to spice things up a bit, I forgot I had a study abstract in my research stash.

To recap

2003 Study - coconut oil does not penetrate hair post-wash although it outperformed sunflower oil and mineral oil in both post-wash and pre-wash tests for protein loss.

2005 Study - coconut oil showed evidence of partial penetration of hair after 24 hours with no heat. Page 9

2005 Study, abstract only, http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ics/2005/00000027/00000005/art00017;jsessionid=3cs733irba25o.alexandra
"On the other hand, monounsaturated oils, such as olive oil, with more compact molecular structure seem to penetrate readily into the hair fiber."

Olive oil did not do well in the other 2005 study. Pages 3, 4, 10 and 11. http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2005/cc056n05/p00283-p00295.pdf Facinating!


I went back and reread pages 3 and 4 of the 2005 JCS study (Keis, Persaud, Kamath & Rele) a few times. If I'm reading it correctly, it appears that only mineral, sesame and ricebran oil failed to show statistically significant implied penetration levels. Olive and mustard oils showed a statistically significant implied penetration level after 24 hours without heat that was actually higher than that of coconut oil (20% for olive & mustard, 10% for coconut). However, the data sets for olive and mustard oils "showed considerable fiber-to-fiber variation, giving a large standard deviation." The authors chose to limit further discussion on mineral, coconut and sunflower oils mainly because those oils gave "highly reproducible results," i.e. smaller standard deviations.

I'm pretty sure that's the bottom line, but do let me know if you disagree with my reading of the material! I'll be here, trying to figure out what esters are and how acid-base reactions work. This is way more fun than high school science class! (^(oo)^)v

[little_cherry]

This all makes complete sense to me. I've been doing some experimenting with adding coconut oil to shampoo and it made my hair feel so nourished and conditioned. After hennaing, I used conditioner, but found that my hair felt a little crunchy (I did not oil prior to henna this time around). I added about 1/2 a teaspoon of solid coconut oil to my conditioner and CO'd with that. My hair felt glossy, soft, but not greasy at all. Swelling of the hair shaft and/or raised cuticles helps the coconut oil penetrate more than on dry hair alone, I guess.

It's fascinating that coconut oil can penetrate at different degrees depending on the variables (heat/water).

Very interesting studies.

Fantastic post.

Just to spice things up a bit, I forgot I had a study abstract in my research stash.

To recap

2003 Study - coconut oil does not penetrate hair post-wash although it outperformed sunflower oil and mineral oil in both post-wash and pre-wash tests for protein loss.

2005 Study - coconut oil showed evidence of partial penetration of hair after 24 hours with no heat. Page 9

2005 Study, abstract only, http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ics/2005/00000027/00000005/art00017;jsessionid=3cs733irba25o.alexandra
"On the other hand, monounsaturated oils, such as olive oil, with more compact molecular structure seem to penetrate readily into the hair fiber."

Olive oil did not do well in the other 2005 study. Pages 3, 4, 10 and 11. http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2005/cc056n05/p00283-p00295.pdf Facinating!

[fairystar32]

mmm very interesting.. Think I will be using coconut oil before I wash in future :)

[ktani]

mmm very interesting.. Think I will be using coconut oil before I wash in future :)

It does work well added to a shampoo, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=57025

[ktani]

I went back and reread pages 3 and 4 of the 2005 JCS study (Keis, Persaud, Kamath & Rele) a few times. If I'm reading it correctly, it appears that only mineral, sesame and ricebran oil failed to show statistically significant implied penetration levels. Olive and mustard oils showed a statistically significant implied penetration level after 24 hours without heat that was actually higher than that of coconut oil (20% for olive & mustard, 10% for coconut). However, the data sets for olive and mustard oils "showed considerable fiber-to-fiber variation, giving a large standard deviation." The authors chose to limit further discussion on mineral, coconut and sunflower oils mainly because those oils gave "highly reproducible results," i.e. smaller standard deviations.

I'm pretty sure that's the bottom line, but do let me know if you disagree with my reading of the material! I'll be here, trying to figure out what esters are and how acid-base reactions work. This is way more fun than high school science class! (^(oo)^)v

Pages 9, 10 and 11 of the pdf, http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2005/cc056n05/p00283-p00295.pdf - mustard oil did not do well - either with or without heat - olive oil did not do great - only partial penetration even after heat

"We also conducted measurements with various other plant-derived oils. For hair treated with mustard oil, the scale structure remained covered after 24 hours, even after additional heat treatment. Also, for hair treated with sesame, ricebran, and olive oils, the scale structure was not apparent from the GP curves even after 24 hours, suggesting no penetration. For olive oil, however, partial separation of reflectance patterns from the T-R and R-T positions appeared after additional heat treatment."

[ChloeDharma]

This thread is really interesting. For me it highlights that although scientific studies are very usefull they can't be used as absolutes. We know this simply from reading forum posts here. In studies coconut oil generally seems to be considered the best but there are still a significant number of posts mentioning individual negative reactions to it ie "crunchy hair".
Mineral oil too, from the studies it would seem useless and though i'm not a fan of it myself and would consider it useless as a way of utilising a herb extract like bhringaraj to the scalp or for aromatherapy use there are members who have reported good results from using it. As Ktani mentions, if you want simply a leave in for shine and/or protection from say....harsh weather then it could be worth considering.

Each person is likely to have different needs and even within that the individuals needs will likely change over time. For me, 6 years ago my hair was chemically fried and the way my hair reacted to a product was different to the way it reacts now that damage has been cut off. My cuticle was very damaged and almost any oil i applied seemed to just disappear even when applying large amounts of it. Now my cuticle is as far as i'm aware fairly much intact i need far less oil before my hair appears oily.
I notice when i oil my sisters chemically coloured hair that on the highlighted sections it takes alot longer to become oily than on the sections with less damage. To me this indicates that it is not as simple as "oil only penetrates during a wash". Of course, things known to open a cuticle like heat and washing are going to make the penetration more effective. However if the cuticle was always flat after processes then things like shine serum and coney products would not have the demand they currently do.

I do find some things confusing about the studies and part of the reason i see them more as a guide than an absolute is that my personal results can differ from the results i see reported. For example, reading this thread i notice sesame oil seems to be considered to not have much significant benefit compared to other oils. However for me after washing sesame oil off my hair it feels far softer than after i wash off coconut oil.

The consideration of the role of heat could be very usefull. When i wore a microbraided wig as a compromise because i wanted braids but without the damage i used to oil my hair with jojoba at that point, put a wig cap on then wear the wig all day. In the evening when i took it off the difference in softness as i finger combed my natural hair was quite striking even compared to when i oiled without wearing the wig. Maybe a way to utilise this for oiling without washing would be to wear a comfy hat to bed after oiling. Of course i say this as a single person with no bed partner to impress ;). I'd also assume that those who do not wash their hair daily would benefit from the heat and steam of their daily shower so again, it's not as simple as assuming only during the washing of hair does the oil get a chance to penetrate.

For those who feel concerned that they have been mistaken using a particular oil based on the results of a study i'd say don't worry about it. If you have had positive results personally then whatever anybody else says that's all that really matters.

[ktani]

In practical use, wouldn't a post-wash oiling still technically be a pre-wash oiling? I don't see why it would make any difference. Especially if the oil was applied regularly, there would be a layer of oil on the hair once you got around to washing it again.

Yes, it would. It would also depend on what else is on the hair though, like conditioner, certain shampoo residues or styling products that contain coatings.

I addressed the problems of too much coconut oil on the hair here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1359681&postcount=594

and coatings here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1365866&postcount=725

[fairystar32]

I am starting using CV bars and they contain coconut oil in some, I was to add some oil during shampooing how much do you add?
thanks

[ktani]

I am starting using CV bars and they contain coconut oil in some, I was to add some oil during shampooing how much do you add?
thanks

That varies with the person and the shampoo bar used, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=57025. All you may need to follow the shampoo is a diluted vinegar or lemon juice rinse (as opposed to conditioner too). All shampoo bars are alkaline unless otherwise indicated or told, and such a rinse is strongly advised, whether you add coconut oil to one or not.

[fairystar32]

thanks :)

My hair is having breaking issues at the moment and I used the coconut oil CV bar, vinegar rinse then followed with a protein treatment then a moisture treatment and its softer and feels great :D
That varies with the person and the shampoo bar used, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=57025. All you may need to follow the shampoo is a diluted vinegar or lemon juice rinse (as opposed to conditioner too). All shampoo bars are alkaline unless otherwise indicated or told, and such a rinse is strongly advised, whether you add coconut oil to one or not.

[ktani]

thanks :)

My hair is having breaking issues at the moment and I used the coconut oil CV bar, vinegar rinse then followed with a protein treatment then a moisture treatment and its softer and feels great :D

Wonderful!

To try this, you may need to clarify first. This works differently.

It would be a shame to waste those treatments though. See how your hair feels for a while, then clarify and just add the coconut oil to the CV bar lather, then vinegar rinse and if your hair feels good, you may not need conditioning.

[fairystar32]

thanks will try it next time I wash :)
Can I clarify with anything natural as only have tresemme (sp?) and I usually use no nasties, natural stuff but it was the only clarifying shampoo I could find in the stores.


Wonderful!

To try this, you may need to clarify first. This works differently.

It would be a shame to waste those treatments though. See how your hair feels for a while, then clarify and just add the coconut oil to the CV bar lather, then vinegar rinse and if your hair feels good, you may not need conditioning.

[ktani]

thanks will try it next time I wash :)
Can I clarify with anything natural as only have tresemme (sp?) and I usually use no nasties, natural stuff but it was the only clarifying shampoo I could find in the stores.

You can use completely dissolved baking soda in warm to hot water, followed by a vinegar rinse first. The vinegar rinse is not optional for after that either or you can have dry hair and tangling.

[fairystar32]

thaks so much :)

Do I need to clarify everytime? as I have clarifyed twice in the last week to try and get rid of any build up which could be causing the breakage.
Or just once a month or so?
I have never clarified before..my hair is already on the dry side usually.

and THANK YOU for all your help xx



You can use completely dissoved baking soda in warm to hot water, followed by a vinegar rinse first. The vinegar rinse is not optional for after that either or you can have dry hair and tangling.

[ktani]

thaks so much :)

Do I need to clarify everytime? as I have clarifyed twice in the last week to try and get rid of any build up which could be causing the breakage.
Or just once a month or so?
I have never clarified before..my hair is already on the dry side usually.

and THANK YOU for all your help xx

You are most welcome!

No, if you do not use other products or conditioner, you should not need to clarify again. If you get any build-up from the CV bar, a different shampoo may be able to handle that, depending on the choice.

[fairystar32]

thanks so much :)
xxx

I will be using my reg shampoos with the cv bars until they have all gone.
I have the akin ones, sukin and also use a non nasties hairdresser one now and again when I can afford it.
Will be hoping to use mainly CV though from now on and these which I have just ordered http://www.bubbleandbee.com/

they are based the same way as CV bars but liquid and vinegar rinse afterwards instead of conditioner.

So if I find I still need conditioner do i need to clarify ebfore every wash? Is it only if I dont use conditioner that I wont need too?
thanks again x
x

[ktani]

thanks so much :)
xxx

I will be using my reg shampoos with the cv bars until they have all gone.
I have the akin ones, sukin and also use a non nasties hairdresser one now and again when I can afford it.
Will be hoping to use mainly CV though from now on and these which I have just ordered http://www.bubbleandbee.com/

they are based the same way as CV bars but liquid and vinegar rinse afterwards instead of conditioner.

So if I find I still need conditioner do i need to clarify ebfore every wash? Is it only if I dont use conditioner that I wont need too?
thanks again x
x

No, however, see how it goes and follow the thread link I gave you. Reports are all in the first post. That may help you.

[feralnature]

After using and loving Coconut oil for 3 years, usually daily on dry hair, I have recently switched to EVOO. The reasons for this were one, curiosity, and two, I felt the need for heavier conditioning this fall and winter with the drier air and the longer length of my hair now.

So this thread comes at as perfect time. I will experiment with the EVOO and later on next year, report results back to LHC.

[ktani]

After using and loving Coconut oil for 3 years, usually daily on dry hair, I have recently switched to EVOO. The reasons for this were one, curiosity, and two, I felt the need for heavier conditioning this fall and winter with the drier air and the longer length of my hair now.

So this thread comes at as perfect time. I will experiment with the EVOO and later on next year, report results back to LHC.

In 24 hours, in the 2005 research study, coconut oil partially penetrated hair (without heat), and olive oil did considerably less well (no apparent penetration). I doubt that EVOO would make a difference. Olive oil did not do that well with heat either, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1368685&postcount=39.

[Charlotte:)]

This is a very interesting thread, and I would really like to try adding coconut oil to my shampoo! How much do you add?

[enfys]

This is a very interesting thread, and I would really like to try adding coconut oil to my shampoo! How much do you add?

I'm afraid it's huge, but this thread has all the info in:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=57025

[rose.grace]

I'm going to restate my original post here. Because Coconut oil is somewhat polar (see article in my next post) it has a magnetic attraction for the hair. You can call that penetration or just plain magnetic attachment. I wish I would have left my original post up but I was thrown off balance for a moment and deleted it. It explained much better in layman's terms what happens.

In cosmetology school we learned about things like rinses stay on the hair because they're magnetized to the hair, but it's not so strong an attraction that it lasts forever. Shampoo molecules have a head and tail. The head likes water, the tail is attracted to dirt and oils that have that slight polar characteristic (also explained in the article below) and they can be washed out. But coconut oil isn't absorbed into the hair to stay forever. It's basically just coating it magnetically.

I'm now giving up on trying to explain this.:shrug:

I've never used coconut oil but I want to. Last time I was at the health food store, they were out of it.

[ecologystudent]

Whether or not it penetrates the hair, it still "works" because it's "polar". Polar means it's magnetic. That's why it is still there after several hours have passed and stays on the hair unless it's forced off of it by shampoo or heavy friction. That's how rinses stay on your hair until you shampoo them out/off. They magnetically stick to the hair.



I'm sorry, but no. Polar does not mean magnetic- very different concepts. For example, water is a polar molecule, however, it is in no way magnetic. Please, do a quick internet search, as it is late and I don't want to explain it right now.

Also, oil is actually non-polar, which is part of why it is hydrophobic.

[rose.grace]

http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/mineral-oil-versus-coconut-oil-which-is-better

A Closer Look at the Penetration Behaviors of Mineral Oil and Coconut Oil

"As you have probably ascertained from this article, many of the behaviors and performance of oils and moisturizers on the hair are affected by whether they remain on the surface or are absorbed into the hair. To get a more quantitative understanding of this, scientists performed direct study of the penetration behaviors of coconut oil and mineral oil on hair via spectrometry (secondary ion mass spec (SIMS) plus time-of-flight mass spec (TOF-MS). The results showed definitively that coconut oil does indeed penetrate the hair shaft, while mineral oil remains on the surface of the air.

Both mineral oil and coconut oil have pretty compact structures which should physically permit diffusion through the porous external layer of the hair shaft. So why does coconut oil do so, while mineral oil does not?

The answer lies in the atoms. While the chemical structure of the molecules present in mineral oil is purely carbon and hydrogen, rendering them very non-polar, triglycerides such as those found in plant-derived oils contain carboxylic acid groups, which lend a little polarity to the molecules. This polarity confers an affinity to these oils for other polar molecules, such as the various keratinous proteins of which hair is comprised. Thus, it is this inherent attraction to other polar molecules, coupled with the relatively simple structure of coconut oil that enables it to diffuse through the cell membrane cortex of the hair and penetrate into the central cortex. Mineral oil has no such affinity for proteins, and remains on the more hydrophobic exterior surface of the hair."

attraction=magnetic

[teela1978]

http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/mineral-oil-versus-coconut-oil-which-is-better

A Closer Look at the Penetration Behaviors of Mineral Oil and Coconut Oil

"As you have probably ascertained from this article, many of the behaviors and performance of oils and moisturizers on the hair are affected by whether they remain on the surface or are absorbed into the hair. To get a more quantitative understanding of this, scientists performed direct study of the penetration behaviors of coconut oil and mineral oil on hair via spectrometry (secondary ion mass spec (SIMS) plus time-of-flight mass spec (TOF-MS). The results showed definitively that coconut oil does indeed penetrate the hair shaft, while mineral oil remains on the surface of the air.

Both mineral oil and coconut oil have pretty compact structures which should physically permit diffusion through the porous external layer of the hair shaft. So why does coconut oil do so, while mineral oil does not?

The answer lies in the atoms. While the chemical structure of the molecules present in mineral oil is purely carbon and hydrogen, rendering them very non-polar, triglycerides such as those found in plant-derived oils contain carboxylic acid groups, which lend a little polarity to the molecules. This polarity confers an affinity to these oils for other polar molecules, such as the various keratinous proteins of which hair is comprised. Thus, it is this inherent attraction to other polar molecules, coupled with the relatively simple structure of coconut oil that enables it to diffuse through the cell membrane cortex of the hair and penetrate into the central cortex. Mineral oil has no such affinity for proteins, and remains on the more hydrophobic exterior surface of the hair."

attraction=magnetic

I'm confused... this article says that coconut oil does penetrate into the cortex (verified by tof sims), so its not just coating the outside of the shaft, which is what you were trying to claim.

I'll go with the theory that coconut oil would have more polar properties than mineral oil, thus allowing it to penetrate... I think calling coconut oil "polar" would raise the hackles of any scientist though. Oil is generally taught to be the least polar of any substance you encounter daily though.

ETA: sorry, not tof sims, just tof ms, no secondary ion involved.

[Sinisiew]

Just a thought after having read this thread, most of the people discussing in this thread seem to assume that their cuticles lie flat basically all the time and maybe they do, this is LHC after all and many many have what is referred to as "virgin" hair (even though the term"virgin" is wrong on SO many levels but that is a rant for a different thread).

However most people don't have perfect undamaged hair, and as well all know damaged hair looks like this:

Sorry for linking to the picture rather than posting it, it didn't want to be posted for some reason :-) (http://www.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/02/uk-kitchen/shops/remington/Rough_hair.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D30971%26start%3D100&usg=__bRagagNkyFRiCNPMgmUVMqscoO8=&h=258&w=338&sz=16&hl=sv&start=55&zoom=1&tbnid=-Rw4FBtMVfmOvM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=169&ei=iRU8Ta62CYbtOfTLsc4L&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddamaged%2Bhair%26hl%3Dsv%26biw%3D1899 %26bih%3D872%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C798&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=912&vpy=506&dur=4216&hovh=196&hovw=257&tx=118&ty=110&oei=hRU8TfahAcSj4QbCz9iHCg&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=54&ved=1t:429,r:38,s:55&biw=1899&bih=872)

ie rough, raised cuticles pulling up and away from eachother which leads to moisture loss of the core.

Well then.

If we assume that the results of the three studies cited in this thread are accurate we can deduct that coconut oil penetrates to the shaft when cuticles are raised.

This should mean that people with damaged hair would have the benefits of coconut oil penetrating to the shaft even when hair is NOT exposed to water or heat since their cuticles are raised all the time.

Just something to consider for the people trying to baby their hair back to health, don't assume that coconut oil isn't beneficial to you applied on dry hair in between washes. it depends on the quality of your hair.

[Busybee]

Wow....I am reading this thread and laughing at the differing interpretations of ONE study.:slap:

All I know is the automatic-lifestyle idea that things will penetrate anything better when it is squeaky clean/fresh.

According to the study everyone is referring to on this thread, it was proven that the oil was absorbed into the cortex better pre-wash..............which would mean the hair was dirty?

Hmmm..... that sounds SO backwards and hilarious to me. I am not doubting it - I just don't understand the scientific reason for it.

I mean, if I try to moisturize my skin after I put on makeup - I would get nowhere - LOL.