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Celebrian
March 11th, 2008, 05:27 PM
What are these, exactly? I mean, what name should I look out for? Is Dimethicone one of them? I think there was a thread on this topic at one time...

I've been 'cone free for shampoo and conditioner (loving the stuff I use, and don't want to change) for the last 5 weeks. My hair is doing really well, but I get 'static' a lot now, I suspect due to the lack of leave-in products; and leaving some conditioner/oil in the ends doesn't seem to be working very well ATM.

So I'm considering the use of a 'cone leave in, and understand that if it's water based it's not likely to produce build-up on my hair. Is that correct?

Can anybody help - because this is driving me mad, and spoiling the look and feel of otherwise strong, healthy hair. Not too expensive please - plus I'm in UK (just so you know). :)

Iylivarae
March 11th, 2008, 05:45 PM
Water-soluble 'cones are indeed soluble in water, but mostly at higher temperatures than you want to wash your hair with, so they actually build up on your hair as well.

The only 'cone where I am sure that it is soluble in water is "dimethicone copolyol".

If your hair is static at the moment, you could also try a deep-moisture treatment. Hair is mostly static, if there is not enough moisture in the hair... so that would be worth a try?

k_hepburn
March 11th, 2008, 07:13 PM
For me what made the biggest difference in avoiding static was finding a truly non-static comb. I tried a number of brands and materials of combs that claimed to be abtistatic, but the only one that trule lived up to the promise for me was my cherished Denman carbon-fibre comb. If you are fighting a bad case of static, I can thoroughly recommend it. Denmans are made in the UK, so you shouldn't have any trouble sourcing their products.

I had to buy another one recently after loosing mine while on a trip, and I can tell you the two weeks before I got round to the shop that sells them were pure hell. Some of my spare combs weren't exactly cheap either, but I just felt like I was brutalizing my hair. Not to mention I suddenly was experiencing static again that had been a mere distant memory since I switched to the Denman Carbon antistatic.

To be totally accurate in my description I should mention that due to the production process there a a slight seam line visible in these combs. However, they do FEEL perfectly smooth when you run a finger over them, the finish is excellent!

katharine

helynhighwater
March 11th, 2008, 07:21 PM
I have no answers about the 'cones, unfortunately. I live in a fairly humid climate so static isn't a big problem, but I noticed that my hair stopped having static pretty much altogether when I switched from using garnier fructis leave-in to coconut oil.

helynhighwater
March 11th, 2008, 07:23 PM
Forgot to mention that I use it from the ears down rather than just the ends, so oiling carefully a bit further up might be helpful.

pariate
March 12th, 2008, 01:48 PM
Hi Celebrian

I have an article on different cones by Juliet's Silk that was in the article section of LHC before it went down. I saved it on my PC because I referred to it so often! The article is quite long and includes a list of the more widely used cones and their water solubility. If you'd like a copy then PM me with your email and I'll send it to you :) Like I said, it's pretty long and I'm hesitant to paste it onto this thread...

HTH

awesometruffle
March 12th, 2008, 01:51 PM
Would it be possible for you to put it in the articles section? Or would that get too confusing? Otherwise could you pm it to me too? Thanks!

pariate
March 12th, 2008, 01:56 PM
Ahhhh... of course, why didn't I think of that?! :blushing: I'll put it up in articles, with a note crediting Juliet's Silk as the author. Hopefully that will be okay - wouldn't want her to think I'm trying to palm it off as my own! :biggrin:

Nightshade
March 12th, 2008, 02:20 PM
We had a great list in the "to cone or not to cone" article :( Hopefully someone will have some luck digging that back up or had it saved on their hard drive.

I found a partial list here that seems to suggest that PEG-8 and PEG-12 dimethicones are water soluble. (http://www.siltechpersonalcare.com/products_page.html)

I did find this, though:


Silicone Use with Skin and Hair

Unmodified silicones stay on or near the surface of the skin. Not only are the molecules too big to physically enter past the upper living cells -- they associate with the upper layer of drying skin -- but they also cannot penetrate cell membranes due to their large size. They also dislike both the water and proteins inside cells.


Cyclomethicones are unmodified silicones. They evaporate quickly after helping to carry oils into the top layer of epidermis. From there, they may be absorbed by the skin. Cyclomethicones a similar function in hair care products by helping nutrients enter the hair shaft.


Dimethicones are also unmodified silicones. They form a barrier layer on the skin which must be renewed as the skin sloughs off. Dimethicones coat the surface of the hair and lubricate it, improving combing providing detangling, and thus, hair loss and breakage.


Silicones form a protective layer which helps prevent transdermal water loss -- a very useful characteristic for many products. Silicone gums provide instant shine to hair. Silicones act to help seal moisture into the hair, which helps prevent many kinds of damage.


Source (http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/silicone_use.html)


Hi Celebrian

I have an article on different cones by Juliet's Silk that was in the article section of LHC before it went down. I saved it on my PC because I referred to it so often! The article is quite long and includes a list of the more widely used cones and their water solubility. If you'd like a copy then PM me with your email and I'll send it to you Like I said, it's pretty long and I'm hesitant to paste it onto this thread...

HTH

Oh thank <insert deity of choice here> someone has it!

FrannyG
March 12th, 2008, 02:27 PM
It's funny that you find that non-cone products are causing you static, because I find the complete opposite happens with me. My home is quite dry and I get a lot of electrical shocks over the course of the day, but I never get staticky hair except if I use cones.

You might want to take a tiny drop of the non-cone conditioner to use as a leave-in. I use less than a pea-sized amount for my BSL hair.

I also use a drop or two of jojoba oil on my hair after it dries, from the ears down only.

Oh, I forgot to say that I don't shampoo; I CO. That's made a big difference for me.

Iylivarae
March 12th, 2008, 02:29 PM
In Nightshade's quote, I find it strange that the cyclomethicone should be able to evaporate so quickly, whilst being a very large molecule. So I am not so sure about the truth of the rest they are telling..

pariate
March 12th, 2008, 02:33 PM
It's up in articles, under Hair Care. I'll see what other articles I have saved and repost them for you all! :D

teela1978
March 12th, 2008, 03:25 PM
In Nightshade's quote, I find it strange that the cyclomethicone should be able to evaporate so quickly, whilst being a very large molecule. So I am not so sure about the truth of the rest they are telling..

This might be more of an answer than you want... Dimethicone is a very large molecule, it's a polymer that can contain thousands to millions of repeat units. I've always theorized that it was a bit easier to wash off of the hair because of this, but due to it's size it won't really ever evaporate off the hair or skin.

Cyclomethicone on the other hand is a small cyclical loop of 5 repeat units, making it much more volatile (can evaporate off), and in my mind, much more likely to get stuck underneath a hair scale... perhaps making it more difficult to wash off.

Anyway, there's my chemical knowledge of silicones.

Iylivarae
March 12th, 2008, 03:50 PM
Ah... I know quite a bit about chemicals, but I didn't know the structures of the 'cones... so thanks for your explanation! If it is that small, it could actually evaporate, so I am sorry about what I've written above.

Cyclomethicone could stick better to the hair because it is smaller... and the keratin in the hair is not neutral, but charged, so large, unpolar molecules (silicones) could have more difficulties to stick to that polar environment than small molecules have...

Where did you find your information about silicone structures?

Nightshade
March 12th, 2008, 04:22 PM
In Nightshade's quote, I find it strange that the cyclomethicone should be able to evaporate so quickly, whilst being a very large molecule. So I am not so sure about the truth of the rest they are telling..

Although I was suspicious as well, I've verified it off of several independent sites.


This might be more of an answer than you want... Dimethicone is a very large molecule, it's a polymer that can contain thousands to millions of repeat units. I've always theorized that it was a bit easier to wash off of the hair because of this, but due to it's size it won't really ever evaporate off the hair or skin.

Cyclomethicone on the other hand is a small cyclical loop of 5 repeat units, making it much more volatile (can evaporate off), and in my mind, much more likely to get stuck underneath a hair scale... perhaps making it more difficult to wash off.

Anyway, there's my chemical knowledge of silicones.

That would make sense :)

Celebrian
March 12th, 2008, 06:53 PM
Thanks for all replies... but I am still in the static zone today.

Frannyg I didn't feel that happy about continuing using coconut oil (ears down) as it gave great shine - but made my hair crunchy (whether applied wet or dry). So I don't know...

Ooo - a scientific debate, but it is all beyond me! All I know is that the conditioner I'm looking at at the moment appears to have only one 'cone in the mix, and that is written as 'Dimethicone Propyl PG-Betaine' although the way it's printed, it could be that it ends with the 'PG-' bit! Sorry, I am no scientist...

eadwine
March 12th, 2008, 10:56 PM
It's up in articles, under Hair Care. I'll see what other articles I have saved and repost them for you all! :D
I don't see it? All I see there is one on measuring and on split ends :confused:

teela1978
March 13th, 2008, 01:55 PM
Ah... I know quite a bit about chemicals, but I didn't know the structures of the 'cones... so thanks for your explanation! If it is that small, it could actually evaporate, so I am sorry about what I've written above.

Cyclomethicone could stick better to the hair because it is smaller... and the keratin in the hair is not neutral, but charged, so large, unpolar molecules (silicones) could have more difficulties to stick to that polar environment than small molecules have...

Where did you find your information about silicone structures?
I'm somewhat familiar with the structures from work (I work in a lab with a few chemists). Here's a couple of links to dimethicone (PDMS) (http://www.chemblink.com/products/9016-00-6.htm) and cyclomethicone (http://www.3dchem.com/molecules.asp?ID=315) structures though.

Celebrian
March 13th, 2008, 02:09 PM
I'm somewhat familiar with the structures from work (I work in a lab with a few chemists). Here's a couple of links to dimethicone (PDMS) (http://www.chemblink.com/products/9016-00-6.htm) and cyclomethicone (http://www.3dchem.com/molecules.asp?ID=315) structures though.

That link says that regarding water solubility - Dimethicone is INSOLUBLE. I thought it was water soluble! :rolleyes: Help! It's the only one I have in the house (conditioner) and I'm not letting it near my hair if it 'aint water soluble...

ETA I found this site: www.gina.antczak.btinternet.co.uk/CU/ING.HTM. It describes my Dimethicone Propyl PG-Betaine (in conditioner) as a synthetic silicone polymer, with functions being those of Antistatic and Surfectant... Is this a goodish silicone or one of the worst types?

Sorry to keep asking questions!

teela1978
March 13th, 2008, 02:24 PM
My understanding is that unless it's stuck to something else (usually a PEG) silicones are rarely soluble in water. There are some chemicals that can be added that will make the silicones go into solutions, detergents being one of them. I'm not really sure what the PG-Betaine addition does. Maybe I'll go play on google a bit.

pariate
March 14th, 2008, 11:42 AM
I don't see it? All I see there is one on measuring and on split ends :confused:

It's listed in My Articles but you're right, I can't see it in the articles section! I'm guessing it's being checked by admin or something? :confused: Totally clueless over here :p

Nightshade
March 14th, 2008, 12:32 PM
I don't see it? All I see there is one on measuring and on split ends :confused:

The articles now have to be reviewed by the mods before being posted :) The henna and herbal hair coloring article are in purgatory too.



That link says that regarding water solubility - Dimethicone is INSOLUBLE. I thought it was water soluble! :rolleyes: Help! It's the only one I have in the house (conditioner) and I'm not letting it near my hair if it 'aint water soluble...

ETA I found this site: www.gina.antczak.btinternet.co.uk/CU/ING.HTM (http://www.gina.antczak.btinternet.co.uk/CU/ING.HTM). It describes my Dimethicone Propyl PG-Betaine (in conditioner) as a synthetic silicone polymer, with functions being those of Antistatic and Surfectant... Is this a goodish silicone or one of the worst types?

Sorry to keep asking questions!

IIRC from the cone article, dimethicone on it's own is insoluble, as pariate pointed out. If it's hooked to a PEG or to another water-soluble cone like "Cyclopentasoloxane (and) Dimethicone" (must be framed between two commas, not seperated by one) then it's water-soluble

Celebrian
March 14th, 2008, 04:57 PM
The articles now have to be reviewed by the mods before being posted :) The henna and herbal hair coloring article are in purgatory too.




IIRC from the cone article, dimethicone on it's own is insoluble, as pariate pointed out. If it's hooked to a PEG or to another water-soluble cone like "Cyclopentasoloxane (and) Dimethicone" (must be framed between two commas, not seperated by one) then it's water-soluble

Ok, thanks Nightshade. I guess that means I won't be using this particular conditioner. *Off to find some Cyclopentasoloxane, or similar...*

vdhendrix
October 28th, 2009, 11:35 PM
i didnt think there were any water soluble cone, i thoght thats why they were bad?

Darkhorse1
October 28th, 2009, 11:40 PM
I think people are missing the point of conditioners. The aren't just dimethicone. They have that as one minor ingredient in a sea of ingredients. If you take a conditioner that has dimethicone in it, it will wash off your hands. It may take longer to fully remove it, but it comes off. Taking straight oil--olive oil or otherwise, does NOT rinse off.

People have to remember that you aren't conditioning your hair with dimethicone, it's just one tiny part in a bigger picture. The percentage is probably so small, I don't think it's that big of a concern, unless you have an allergy to it or find your hair just doesn't like it :) :D

plainjanegirl
October 30th, 2009, 09:10 PM
I think people are missing the point of conditioners. The aren't just dimethicone. They have that as one minor ingredient in a sea of ingredients. If you take a conditioner that has dimethicone in it, it will wash off your hands. It may take longer to fully remove it, but it comes off. Taking straight oil--olive oil or otherwise, does NOT rinse off.

People have to remember that you aren't conditioning your hair with dimethicone, it's just one tiny part in a bigger picture. The percentage is probably so small, I don't think it's that big of a concern, unless you have an allergy to it or find your hair just doesn't like it :) :D



You make a very good point.
I would think it would be the smae with sulphates, unless you have an allergy or something then it's just an ingredient.