Chemical and mechanical damage (or the pros and cons of shampoo and brushes)

[CryssieWillow]

Hiya all!
I have been absent for some time, mainly because of a busy life and less time to focus on my hair. Sorry about that. :o

I have done some experimenting and came to some interesting conclusions. Basicly my hair falls into the gray are of 1c/2a and I have never found a routine that made me completely happy. It sometimes seemed that it got worse if I put more effort into my hair. Lately I have been trying to slowly go to a sorta "prehistoric" minimalistic routine where I let my body sort out what is best. I thought it would be interesting to share and maybe get a nice discussion going. :-)

Some of you may remember my no-combing experiment.
I am still going strong. :-) I only comb my hair if I cut it. It has made a massive improvement in how my waves look and my hair is a lot less frizzy. But the most interesting side-effect was the DRAMATIC decrease in the amount of split ends. My hair used to split a lot but after I stopped combing, I only found a few when I was looking for them. After a short transition-period I had no problems with tangles at all.
In the same spirit I stopped putting up my hair or braiding it at night. It is basicly loose all the time and I only put it out of the way when the need arises. There are no kinks, split ends or other signs that my hair is suffering.
It made me wonder, is the pulling, combing, twisting and strain of putting hair up really better then letting it down and ignoring it? Tangling does not damage the hair. Rough detangling does and I have eliminated that factor. Beyond the practical of getting your hair out of your work, does hair need the protection?

Since about a week I have also cut out shampoo and I have switched to Aleppo soap. I did this also for another reason but immediately discovered something really cool.
There was no hair in the drain. :eek: This trend continued in the following washes. It seems that with just Aleppo soap and no poo or co, I shed a lot less hair.
Thinking about it, it made sense. soap made following a 1200 yo recipe is probably less harmfull to the scalp then engine degreaser. :rolleyes:
My hair feels different then freshly out of shampoo and conditioner but it is soft, tangle free and shiny. There are no dry ends, despite the fact that I have used no co or oils. Just Aleppo and ACV rinse (hard water)
Again I ask. Are shampoo and conditioner a necessity or is it in our collective mind? The human body is extremely adaptive. It allows us to deal with all conditions. Can't it be taught to deal with less chemicals and save a ton of money in the process?

I hope we can talk about this and share some information.
I will keep you all posted on my own results.

If there are people interested to try what I am doing, remember. This is not a routine but a lack of routine. I leave my hair alone to do what it should be doing. I'd recommend introducing changes slowly one by one and give your body a month or more to settle into one change before introducing the next.
And please post if you are trying. It would be cool to compare results.

Uhm, that's it for now.
Cheers! :)

[aenflex]

I've never had the guts to go completely shampoo-less, WO or the like. Although I've seen some gorgeous heads of hair that were WO or CO. You should post some pics of how your hair is looking with this routine, you might turn some people :)

[CryssieWillow]

I thought I'd hold the pics, because it is night here. But okay. :-)

This is a flash, of course.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56/CryssieWillow/28092010644.jpg
I washed (Aleppo and ACV) this morning.

[lsnyder09]

For about two months I tried going without harsh shampoos. I used a homemade baking soda/water solution for shampoo and apple vinegar/water solution for conditioner. The baking soda mixture cleans while the vinegar replaces the moisture. I was loving how it looked, but then summer hit. The heat and humidity made my hair oilier and more difficult to keep clean. Because of this I started using shampoo again. I may try the poo free now that autumn is making an appearance. The only thing I worry about is the use of product. I feel that baking soda is unable to rid my hair of product. I use a light cream to help my curls take better shape, and I am afraid that the solution wouldn't clean it as well. I'm willing to try though. I look forward to hearing more about your routine and how it's working

[longforhim]

subscribing :) I'm interested in hearing more about this topic.

[dainaleeo2]

I CO wash, since shampoo destroys my poor hair, but...i still use products since i know if i go without, my hair [which i straighten...i know, bad bad!] will just not look like anything but a broomstick.
most times i just scrunch, but use a bit of product since my hair has zero shape on its own. it wants to be straight in some places, wavy & kinky in others, so i feel like i'm tortured to either use product & wave it or straighten.

i think that shampoo just came around from companies that produced it & then marketed it in a way that now we just think is a no brainer. people think i'm gross for never shampooing, but they also don't understand CO washing. so, they just think it's nasty, but thats how programmed due to sociological factors we are. i think your method is awesome & if i was braver, & not a college senior, i would definately give it a shot. i wish i had the guts to just let my shorter hair down & let it do whatever but...it just doesn't have the texture for that :(

[CryssieWillow]

The only thing I worry about is the use of product. I feel that baking soda is unable to rid my hair of product. I use a light cream to help my curls take better shape, and I am afraid that the solution wouldn't clean it as well.

Can I ask what you do for combing and brushing?
I have no experience with curlies, but I have tried virtually everything to get my waves to take some defined shape. Just stoppping with combing and brushing made all the difference. If you don't touch it, the hair should clump together in the most natural and best-looking shape. Now I can have ringlets without any product at all.

[Othala]

I concur that wearing hair loose has proved far less damaging for my wavy hair than wearing it in up which I tried for a while. I have few splits/bends/breaks wearing it loose than in any other way.

I am intrigued by your comb-free results and might try this to see if it works for me.

Regarding the Aleppo soap, however, I have tried washing my hair with this and with African Black soap which is basically saponified shea butter - unfortunately, both soaps left a dull residue on my hair, even after ACV rinses.

Nice to see you back on the boards!

[ravenreed]

Your hair might be happier without combing, mine is not. I comb or brush my hair at least twice a day if it is up all day, morning and night. I don't know how my hair can tangle when it is in a bun or a braid all day, but it apparently can. If it is down I basically have to do it every few hours. My hair dreads. I don't want dreads. If I don't comb frequently, I have to deal with fist sized knots in my hair at the end of the day. Don't get me wrong, I prefer to wear my hair down. I just have to deal with the consequences.

Everything, everything on LHC is YMMV. It all depends on hair type.

[Anje]

Interesting experiences. I'm convinced that if I didn't comb my hair, I'd have a lot less damage. Fast, rough brushing was a major cause of damage for me, pre-LHC. I'm not sure I know how to get to no combing, though... Fingercombing isn't that effective for me. I may need to attempt it, though.

I know when I went WO for about 8-9 months, I had a lot less shedding. My scalp liked it a lot, and I keep talking about needing to go back to it, but not doing it. :P However, my length needed conditioner and got increasingly dry with WO, even though I oiled it regularly. It could be that my need for conditioner was due to hair with more damage (maybe even due to shampoo), but I couldn't say for sure.

[CryssieWillow]

Lots of responses soon! :D Weeh! This will be an interesting thread!
I will post some more info on the no-combing as it seems some are interested in giving it a go.

It is something that your hair will transition into. I cannot explain the science because I don't completely understand it. I do believe that your hair needs to be reasonably healthy for it to be succesfull. Damaged hair will probably snag more easily and cause tangles.
I started by putting away my brushes and combs so I would not be tempted. :D I only combed in the shower while there was conditioner in my hair. If I found knots between washes I gently combed them out with my fingers. The hair will lump together and do things that uncombed hair does, but I let it.
After a while I did not need to use the showercomb anymore. And then fingercombing became less necessary because I did not find any knots anymore.
Your hair will start to behave and feel differently but tangles and dreads are not any of my worries. Just make sure that you don't strip your hair. Make sure there is CO, oil, or some residue that makes sure your hair won't catch. Don't mess with it too much.
Washing or even rinsing is a great way to detangle your hair too. Nowadays, if I use a normal shampoo, my hair falls completely tanglefree when I rinse it out. I used to need co for that.
I did find out that my bangs looked horrible uncombed so I immediately grew those out again as soon as I cut them in. Something to keep in mind. You may want to experiment with rinsing your hair between washes and letting it dry naturally to keep it looking the way you want. You may not need it but well....
I'm a 2a. I have no idea how it works on different hairtypes.
Hope that helps for interested people. :-)

[CryssieWillow]

Interesting experiences. I'm convinced that if I didn't comb my hair, I'd have a lot less damage. Fast, rough brushing was a major cause of damage for me, pre-LHC. I'm not sure I know how to get to no combing, though... Fingercombing isn't that effective for me. I may need to attempt it, though.

I know when I went WO for about 8-9 months, I had a lot less shedding. My scalp liked it a lot, and I keep talking about needing to go back to it, but not doing it. :P However, my length needed conditioner and got increasingly dry with WO, even though I oiled it regularly. It could be that my need for conditioner was due to hair with more damage (maybe even due to shampoo), but I couldn't say for sure.

I just posted something more on no combing. hth :-P
Yeah! You should get back to that! :-)
I dunno...could it have been oil buildup?


I concur that wearing hair loose has proved far less damaging for my wavy hair than wearing it in up which I tried for a while. I have few splits/bends/breaks wearing it loose than in any other way.

I am intrigued by your comb-free results and might try this to see if it works for me.

Regarding the Aleppo soap, however, I have tried washing my hair with this and with African Black soap which is basically saponified shea butter - unfortunately, both soaps left a dull residue on my hair, even after ACV rinses.

Nice to see you back on the boards!

Wow, it's really cool that I am not the only one with this experience! :D

Hmn, I did notice a dull cast to my hair. I did not pay it any mind though. I'm planning to experiment with other natual soaps and perhaps soapwort and see where it leads me.

Thanks! :D Good to be back!

[Krentje]

Very interesting, Chrissiewillow! a question: did you henna your hair? I am not ready to take this path yet but surely using less product than i used to. (since LHC i use just very small amounts of shampoo and conditioner, massaging more and not brushing anymore).

[angelfell]

This is interesting :). I probably will never have the guts to wash without shampoo/conditioner.. well, maybe the shampoo I could throw, but conditioner? Not a chance. Too chicken of what my hair may look like if I don't hide the damage :p.

I have considered discontinuing my hair products as well, out-of-shower. The leave-in conditioners, the sleek&shine oil, the Chii Shine Infusion.. I'm not so sure that it's damaging my hair, but since I'm not straightening it anymore (save for going out), I don't reaallyy need it. On the last 3 inches, maybe, but the rest of my hair is good to go.

[GeoJ]

I went without combing or brushing for about a week once, when I lost my comb on vacation. My hair was fine with it, but I think I went back to combing out of habit when I got back home. That being said, some days I just put my hair in a bun in the morning with no combing, and finger-detangle before putting it in my sleepcap at night.

This photo was after a few days of only finger-detangling:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3067&pictureid=38638

I did try WO and CO before, but I went back to shampoo because I got waxy yellow scalp buildup. Shampoo bars leave waxy buildup on my hair, even with ACV rinses. I get nice results from Indian herbs, but they take a long time to rinse out so I only use them when I'm not in a hurry.

I might give a serious try to no combing/brushing. I can't leave mine down, though. I've been exercising 5 or 6 days per week, and I go horseback riding. My hair would definitely get in the way during those activities.

[RitaPG]

I know a guy that does the Aleppo and ACV routine and a heavy oiling before washes, his hair is almost classic length now.
I've been looking into trying that too, but something confuses me. Different soaps seem to have different oil ratios (I've seen it with 5%, 12%, 20% and 30% of oil. How do I know if it will be too drying or too greasy? I'm really into trying the Aleppo and ACV, it would be so practical for travelling.

[Alix]

I don't comb my hair often either and my waves are more defined. I don't tend to tangle or split though so I didn't notice a difference on that front.

I do pull my hair up often because I like the aesthetics of it, and for sports. Though often for sports I'll just wear a hat and leave it down.

[Shicurls]

This is interesting to me. All new ways of viewing my haircare routine are interesting to me! :) Since I am a curly, I don't comb or really brush my hair. I do in the shower with tons of CO on it, or with a Denman for my scalp. But, since, I've reintroduced ACV into my routine, my scalp is doing a happy dance! This may mean that I can cut back on s/c and gel. I love my oils though.....hmm....something to ponder!

[CryssieWillow]

Very interesting, Chrissiewillow! a question: did you henna your hair? I am not ready to take this path yet but surely using less product than i used to. (since LHC i use just very small amounts of shampoo and conditioner, massaging more and not brushing anymore).

Yes I did. :-)
I think cutting back on product is good. I remember messing so much with my hair that my scalp would actually burn when I put co on it. It was that tender from all the goo I put on there to help my hair.


I did try WO and CO before, but I went back to shampoo because I got waxy yellow scalp buildup. Shampoo bars leave waxy buildup on my hair, even with ACV rinses. I get nice results from Indian herbs, but they take a long time to rinse out so I only use them when I'm not in a hurry.

I might give a serious try to no combing/brushing. I can't leave mine down, though. I've been exercising 5 or 6 days per week, and I go horseback riding. My hair would definitely get in the way during those activities.

Your hair looks great, I'd say it will be fine without a comb. :-)
Agreed on putting it out of the way, especially since yours is so long. I also put it in a ponytail when I am excersizing or cooking or making fire at work. I get the impression that the really fiddly hairdo's are the problem with me. The ones that require lots of combing and pulling. Hair should be fine with a braid or something. :P


I know a guy that does the Aleppo and ACV routine and a heavy oiling before washes, his hair is almost classic length now.
I've been looking into trying that too, but something confuses me. Different soaps seem to have different oil ratios (I've seen it with 5%, 12%, 20% and 30% of oil. How do I know if it will be too drying or too greasy? I'm really into trying the Aleppo and ACV, it would be so practical for travelling.

The ratio points to the amount of Laurel oil. Aleppo is traditionally made with olive and laurel. Laurel can be irritating to some but it is very beneficial if you can take it.
I just read that the recipe is apparently 4000 years old and not 1200. Wow! :)

[Jenn of Pence]

Okay. I also have 1c/2a-ish hair. First of all, let me say that it drives me crazy to have one huge body wave on one side of my hair and have it almost completely straight on the other side. This is the single reason I ever started straightening my hair before LHC. I would deal with waves if I had even remotely uniform ones, but given the situation my preference is straighter. That being said, I rely on gentle combing/encouraging while my hair is drying to get it to be somewhat flatter (as well as cones to weigh it down a bit). Now, I did a true hair-typing once (well, what is defined as "finding your hair type") in which I clarified, detangled a bit in the shower, and let it dry untouched. I had the huge body wave in the normal spot plus a little more wave in general, but it was really nothing major that I wanted to live with day to day. So I kept washing and gently combing/brushing as straight as I can.
So...if I could leave my hair alone wih no poo, no brushing for an extended period of time, would I see a difference in my wave pattern plus my overall health? I wouldn't discount it, especially given your experience. Giving it time to adjust to something different might bring out a totally different head of hair. If I were in the right situation in life to let it go, I feel that I would be interested in experimenting, but right now I psychologically feel warm and comfortable with shampoo and the feeling of a gentle brushing.
FWIW, I see many things that could change my hair texture dramatically, too, including the weight of my hair as it gets longer, the wave pattern it may exhibit as it gets longer, the texture of my virgin hair once all the damage grows out, and the texture of my greys coming in. I imagine that my hair will be ever evolving through the rest of my life.
Ok, I think this is a bit of am rambling post; hopefully some of it is coherent. You bring up many interesting ideas to think about, and I'm going to have to ponder them for a while! This is just my first go at it. :)

[lsnyder09]

Can I ask what you do for combing and brushing?
I have no experience with curlies, but I have tried virtually everything to get my waves to take some defined shape. Just stoppping with combing and brushing made all the difference. If you don't touch it, the hair should clump together in the most natural and best-looking shape. Now I can have ringlets without any product at all.

I actually don't brush much. When I do it's right out of the shower. I then shake it out over my head and let it go. Today I didn't put any product in (see my hair album...picture from the back against a wood door... turquoise shirt), and it was somewhat curly, but not very defined. I am from a high humidity area and I go to college in a drier area so my curls don't form as well without some assistance (e.g. cream, or light spray). Let me know if you have any tips

[CryssieWillow]

Just a quick report:

I used ghassoul to wash my hair for a week with great results. It gives my hair a lot more body then the Aleppo.
When I switched back to Aleppo last night I noticed something.
Aleppo has this rinsing coarseness when you wash it out. It disappears completely with the ACV rinse. It has something to do with my rock-hard water.
After a week of ghassoul this was much, much less pronounced. I don't know if it has anything to do with disappearing build up from shampoo and co but it could be the case.
My mild and semi-permanent case of dandruff has hit the road too. I hope permanently.
Sleeping on my loose hair kinda messes the waves up on one hand but sometimes I discover a fully formed curl. There seems to be a difference in texture between the new top 15 cm's and the lower length of my hair. The top half looks and feels better. I don't know if it is through chemical exposure, age, new growth or something else. I'll probably know more in a year or 2. :D


I actually don't brush much. When I do it's right out of the shower. I then shake it out over my head and let it go. Today I didn't put any product in (see my hair album...picture from the back against a wood door... turquoise shirt), and it was somewhat curly, but not very defined. I am from a high humidity area and I go to college in a drier area so my curls don't form as well without some assistance (e.g. cream, or light spray). Let me know if you have any tips

pffff.... I am blank.... Sorry.
We don't have such differences in humidity here.

[Krentje]

We don't have such differences in humidity here.

Agreed, it often hits the full 100 % of humidity.. :(. That has a big influence on hair.

I wondered how you used the ghassoul (i guess you bought a bag at a morrocan shop?), did you just dillute it with water and put it on your hair and scalp?

[CryssieWillow]

Agreed, it often hits the full 100 % of humidity.. :(. That has a big influence on hair.

I wondered how you used the ghassoul (i guess you bought a bag at a morrocan shop?), did you just dillute it with water and put it on your hair and scalp?

Teehee, indeed. It is part of what makes any temperature hotter than 30 degrees C so frikking unbearable. We're not fish, damnit! :rolleyes:

Yes, I just dilute it with water, mush it through my hair, let it sit for a minute and rinse. Then some ACV and done. I make my mix quite watery and use not too much ghassoul , because it can be drying on your hair.
My current batch is from Logona, but I'm almost out so I'm planning a trip to Lombok, Utrecht on my next day off.

[Roscata]

I started to read articles about what can cause hair loss because I always seem to lose a lot of hair as soon as my hair is long enough to put in a pony tail. After reading a lot of articles both on this site and on others I decided to stop putting my hair up or combing it while wet and start using shampoo bar and vinegar rinse.

I never thought about putting my hair up as something that could damage my hair then I read this:

"Yes. If you wear pigtails or cornrows or use tight hair rollers, the pull on your hair can cause a type of hair loss called traction alopecia (say: al-oh-pee-sha). If the pulling is stopped before scarring of the scalp develops, your hair will grow back normally. However, scarring can cause permanent hair loss. Hot oil hair treatments or chemicals used in permanents (also called "perms") may cause inflammation (swelling) of the hair follicle, which can result in scarring and hair loss." Link to article (http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/men/general/081.html)

I found similar articles that also include braids as something that could damage hair. Needless to say it is time for me to stop keeping my hair in a ponytail.

The shampoo bar decision came because I want to wash my hair less often and the vinegar rinse goes hand in hand with it because it helps my scalp ph balance after the wash.

[nemileo]

Ah...I love this thread! I get so many good hair care tips from it! I have been using a shampoo bar from Mehandi for some time now, and I love it, but I still need conditioner to prevent my hair from tangling. Now I think I will try apple cider vinegar and coconut oil instead of conditioner, and I have just ordered a piece of Aleppo soap 20%. Maybe I will be able to stop coumbing finally? I was able to do that when my hair was 100% virgin when I was a child, but after years of torture it has been impossible. Now I am growing out healthy hair, and color it with henna and indigo instead of chemical. It allready feels softer, but the ends are still a tangly mess. I know brushing causes damage here, beacause I sometimes have to brush so heavily to make my hair not dread. Hope this regimen will work!

[Shicurls]

I am trying this method out. It's not that different than what I was doing before, but now I try to go without product. So far, it is taking sometime to adjust. I miss my "perfect" curls that I get with product. Now I have wild hair.....which I like, but sometimes a girl just wants to look a certain way! :)

[CryssieWillow]

I am trying this method out. It's not that different than what I was doing before, but now I try to go without product. So far, it is taking sometime to adjust. I miss my "perfect" curls that I get with product. Now I have wild hair.....which I like, but sometimes a girl just wants to look a certain way! :)

I am totally feeling you! I do have much bigger hair since switching to this method. On the upside, I have noticed better waves and even some curls. I suspect the look will be smoother once the old hair grows out and the new growth settles in with the rest of my hair.
Much luck with it! Do keep us posted!


Ah...I love this thread! I get so many good hair care tips from it! I have been using a shampoo bar from Mehandi for some time now, and I love it, but I still need conditioner to prevent my hair from tangling. Now I think I will try apple cider vinegar and coconut oil instead of conditioner, and I have just ordered a piece of Aleppo soap 20%. Maybe I will be able to stop coumbing finally? I was able to do that when my hair was 100% virgin when I was a child, but after years of torture it has been impossible. Now I am growing out healthy hair, and color it with henna and indigo instead of chemical. It allready feels softer, but the ends are still a tangly mess. I know brushing causes damage here, beacause I sometimes have to brush so heavily to make my hair not dread. Hope this regimen will work!

Patience... the only way alas. But it is great to hear you are making this progress! :)
I would recommend introducing changes one by one and slowly to let your hair and scalp get used to it.


I discovered today I have a wolfs coat. Really!
The canopy of my hair is ridiculously water-repellant. I can stand for half a minute under the running water without the bottom half of my hair getting wet.
It makes cleaning the hair under the canopy a problem.
I just disolved some Aleppo in hot water and used that to get to all the hair and scalp under there. I hope that cleaned things up because my scalp was not amused at being greasy.
Shampoo is formulated at getting through hair and I have a LOT of hair. I'll have to experiment with getting everything clean without shampoo..... to be continued.

Also to all the ladies who replied, I'm sorry if I don't reply to everyone in person. I'm very busy... :o
Do know that I read everything and am very interested in everyones stories. I'll keep you all updated on my discoveries too.

[growing2shine]

This thread is very interesting!
For what I remember, when my hair was all virgin, I could go for days without a brush and it would still be almost tangle free. But now after all the damage I have made, my hair is very tangle prone. But I am growing out the damaged/dyed hair and I think when my hair is all virgin again I will be able to be a lot more laid back (I hope). But my fine hair could be a problem. When my hair was all virgin I didn't care that much for it, and it's longer now.:hmm:

It's funny to think that you can be too caring for your hair.

[darkwaves]

As I remember it, the Curly Girl book also suggests no combing or brushing because detangling can be so rough on hair.

I keep trying that (letting the water detangle when I wash) but keep going back to the comb because I don't like my natural growth pattern on my crown... There's a big jagged line, like a cowlick, and the hair falls away on either side of it... Not my favourite look. And you're right -- the less you comb, the more that's accentuated.

But this is a good reminder that the less handling, the better. (And for me, that's why I like updos, as my ends don't get caught on anything, and I'm not tempted to play with them! But I rarely detangle before putting my hair up.)

Interesting thread.

[getoffmyskittle]

Bump!

Cryssie, are you still doing this? How's it working out?

[spidermom]

It's nice to see you; glad you could stop in.

I can't stand the slimey feel of soap, so if I didn't use shampoo, I'm sure I'd be happier with nothing at all. Shampoo and conditioners are little luxuries that I'm glad to give myself, not necessities. Sometimes I get lazy about combing and end up with plenty of knots, some of which have to be cut out, so I think I'll stick with that little luxury (a hardwood comb), too.