Contrarian Hair Care!

[jane53]

I'm starting to feel like an odd woman out here.

More LHCers are oilers than not, and my hair HATES oils.

A fair majority of LHCers feel that wearing their hair up protects it. I get a bit more breakage with updos (though I still wear them).

And now, I just posted in the Waist to Tailbone thread that I was getting toward my tailbone so I was thinking of trimming it back up to hip. Someone replied asking me if I had uneven ends or damage, assuming those would be the only reasons I would trim. (I have neither.)

Anyone else engaged in CONTRARIAN HAIR CARE? :cheese::cheese::cheese:

[teela1978]

I like cones. I shampoo. With sulfates!!!! Sometimes every day!!!!!! The horror :twisted:

I like oils though, my hair appreciates a pre-wash deep oiling. Comes out super shiny and the ends are nice. I don't see myself growing past tailbone either though.

LHC is a pretty diverse community. We've got all types.

[jane53]

Yes, fortunately...we DO have all types.

When I first started coming here, though, the oiling threads and the updo threads were the ones that kept coming to the top. (You know how threads rotate and disappear and reappear over time.) After my first week here, I became convinced I SHOULD oil and that I was probably weird for wearing my hair down.

I got over it.

[teela1978]

I think a lot of updo threads are geared towards people who don't want to or can't wear their hair down all the time. I for example, work in a lab where I cannot wear my hair down all the time. If I shoved it up in a ponytail all the time I'd get breakage around that band. Learning to use sticks means less dependence on the ponytail, and less breakage compared to that way of keeping my hair up. Plus hair down gets hot!!! Part of having long hair is the temperature control benefit (I'm cold. Hair goes down. I'm hot. Hair goes back up.). Quick ways of dealing with a few feet of hair are helpful.

Plus I'm not shedding all over my office when its up. 3-4 hairs from shoulderlength hair aren't a big deal. 3-4 hip length hairs shed every day for a week become a bit of a mess!

[Alvrodul]

I'm starting to feel like an odd woman out here.

More LHCers are oilers than not, and my hair HATES oils.

A fair majority of LHCers feel that wearing their hair up protects it. I get a bit more breakage with updos (though I still wear them).

And now, I just posted in the Waist to Tailbone thread that I was getting toward my tailbone so I was thinking of trimming it back up to hip. Someone replied asking me if I had uneven ends or damage, assuming those would be the only reasons I would trim. (I have neither.)

Anyone else engaged in CONTRARIAN HAIR CARE? :cheese::cheese::cheese:
Well, my hair has done a lot of growing under my regimen of benign neglect - just shampoo and condition, and tie it up and out of the way.:sleep:
I have started fussing a bit more with my hair lately, but not all that much.:p

[Tabihito]

I tried CO, but my scalp was still just too oily, so I CWC now (with a sulfatey shampoo every day) and my hair seems happy so far. I also prefer wearing my hair down, and my hair doesn't like oil as a leave-in treatment.

However, thanks to the joys of biology lab, wearing my hair down is sort of a no-no, so I'm trying to see if I can manage to wear my hair a different way every day until this class ends in mid-August.

So you're hardly alone here.

[Dani]

Do what makes you happy. Who gives a fsck what anyone else says about it? I do whatever I feel like doing with my hair and don't care what anyone else does or doesn't do with theirs.

[Naava]

And now, I just posted in the Waist to Tailbone thread that I was getting toward my tailbone so I was thinking of trimming it back up to hip. Someone replied asking me if I had uneven ends or damage, assuming those would be the only reasons I would trim. (I have neither.)

I think the reason for this was that at least I have always considered these "somewhere to somewhere" threads to be for people growing their hair from one milestone length to another. I guess I were thinking more like it was a thread for people whose hair just happens to be somewhere between waist and tailbone?

[Tiina]

1. Oils usually don't do anything except sit on top of the cuticle and make my hair look greasy.
2. Combing breaks my hair more than brushing and combs seem to actually create tangles. There are never any tangles or knots if I brush.
3. Fingercombing no matter if wet or dry does NOT feel gentle at all.
4. I've only ever seen one split end in my life, even though I've routinely searched for them through both long and short styles. Never had any even when I straightened daily.
5. Up-dos neither protect nor harm my hair. I only do them to keep hair from tickling me all the time.

[spidermom]

I feel like really going rogue and breaking out the heated rollers! Only the knowledge that my hair won't hold a curl at this length stops me. I've really got to get to that classic length mark at least once in my life since I've wanted it for so long. But after that? Who knows.

[jane53]

1. Oils usually don't do anything except sit on top of the cuticle and make my hair look greasy.
2. Combing breaks my hair more than brushing and combs seem to actually create tangles. There are never any tangles or knots if I brush.
3. Fingercombing no matter if wet or dry does NOT feel gentle at all.
4. I've only ever seen one split end in my life, even though I've routinely searched for them through both long and short styles. Never had any even when I straightened daily.
5. Up-dos neither protect nor harm my hair. I only do them to keep hair from tickling me all the time.

COMBING! That's another thing my hair hates. Fingercombing seems to be hair abuse to my hair. I don't have split ends either.

HAIR SISTAH!!!:cheese:

[squiggyflop]

well my hair loves cones unlike many here.. and ive tried going sulfate free and CO and every other thing out there (sebum only was the worst for me as my scalp became crusted with half a centimeter of wax grossness and then broke out into sores)

when i started here my hair hated oils and i got a lot of breakage from updos. but after a while i started getting more breakage with my hair down (realized i was doing the updos wrong/too tight/not secured with hair safe things) and now my hair likes to be oiled an hour or so before washing (never ever as a leave in as my hair doesnt suck it up and just ends up greasy).. its weird how my hair changed over the course of growing it.. my waves are slowly dissapearing as the length pulls the hair straight.. my hair used to be puff city with deep waves that flipped..

also everyone swears by combs.. i still havent figured out how to properly detangle with a comb to have it not shred my hair (except my shower comb when my hair is full of conditioner).. so i mainly use a wood bristle brush.. i only use a BBB on the scalp though.. the wood bristle brush doesnt break the hair like the BBB does..

also i feel weird because a lot of the stuff i use on my hair is made for children.. like my regular leave-in conditioner. JOHNSON'S® NO MORE TANGLES® Leave-in Conditioner is for toddlers.. and i use it even though im no toddler.. it works so well on my tangles.. and its cheap and you only need a dime size amount for my TB+ hair.. i feel so weird telling people that..

[loralie]

Yeah, you definitely have to do what's best for you... the whole henna thing is not for me at all but I couldn't help but feel guilty for a bit that I didn't want to try it.

And I love cones. But really, everyone's DNA is different, so the hair is different, so different things will work for different people!

Glad you're figuring out what works! :D

[HairFaerie]

When my hair is long, I can't wear it up, I get massive headaches! So, unfortunately, I have no choice on that one...

I agree that you should do whatever works best for you. Some people's hair can take different things than others.

You have beautiful hair! Go with what you've been doing if that's what you are comfortable with. It's working! :)

[Toadstool]

Bleach, cones and sulphates here :):rolleyes:

[Thinthondiel]

I feel like really going rogue and breaking out the heated rollers! Only the knowledge that my hair won't hold a curl at this length stops me. I've really got to get to that classic length mark at least once in my life since I've wanted it for so long. But after that? Who knows.

I use heated curlers. But then, I also cut and layered my hair a few weeks back so that my hair would be able to hold curls properly (I realised I preferred occasional curls over length).

Also, I brush (with a wood bristle brush and a BBB), wear my hair down and use chemical dyes. And I wear ponytails if I'm hiking.

I'm such a bad LHC-er :p

[jane53]

I use heated curlers. But then, I also cut and layered my hair a few weeks back so that my hair would be able to hold curls properly (I realised I preferred occasional curls over length).

Also, I brush (with a wood bristle brush and a BBB), wear my hair down and use chemical dyes. And I wear ponytails if I'm hiking.

I'm such a bad LHC-er :p


I use a BBB and wear ponytails too!! :p

[Tiina]

COMBING! That's another thing my hair hates. Fingercombing seems to be hair abuse to my hair. I don't have split ends either.

HAIR SISTAH!!!:cheese:

Actually, if my hair was as long as yours and virgin, I could impersonate the back of your head. Similar colour and type. :p

[jane53]

Actually, if my hair was as long as yours and virgin, I could impersonate the back of your head. :p

Impersonating the back of my head sounds odd. And funny. And possibly perverse.

GO FOR IT!:cheese::cheese::cheese:

[Katurday]

My hair likes being layered, and sulfates.
It is okay with cones but not in conditioners.
Although it hates blowfrying, it doesn't mind straightening once in a while.

[Dragon]

My hair also hates being tied up as causes a lot of breakage, it also hates combing, except when wet with conditioner through it and hates bristle brushes. It likes oiling with coconut oil befor washing and the only oils I can use inbetween washes are jojoba oil abd lavender oil. Defianty agree you need to do what works.

[HintOfMint]

I <3 sulfates. That is all.

[missjessiecakes]

Lets see my hair needs to be washed every other day but is usually wash once a day with sulphates (am I spelling that wrong it always comes up as wrong) I get gross scabby sores.

I do like oil and cones on occasion. I am not super worried about them. They are just meh.

I dont dread going to the salon in fact I enjoy it. I love having my hair washed by someone else.

I brush with a wood bristle brush because I enjoy the feeling on my scalp.

I sleep with it loose because I cant sleep in braids, they fall out and buns are just uncomfortable. Although I could invest in a silk pillow case but I dont always stay on my pillow so it seems frivolous.

I love dying my hair but I usually just dye it black these days. :)

[ravenreed]

I always feel like an LHC deviant because I still color my hair. You can have my hair dye when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. I layer my hair. I still wear it down. I am fighting with oiling right now because when I oil my ends, it wicks up the hair and makes my scalp look greasy and I hate the greasy look! What else? I do CO, so I gave up cones, but I wash my hair every 2 -3 days and I don't think I want to stretch it more than that. I am happiest with my hair when I have clean hair and scalp.

ETA: Oh, I still brush my hair. My hair never gets as smooth when I comb it. So brushing is a must, but my hair hates BBB's. I only use my BBB to brush out the dry shampoo I use from time to time when I don't have enough time to wash and dry my hair. If I use my BBB on my scalp, it ends up looking like I have washed my hair in a year.

I think in all things on LHC, as elsewhere, YMMV. Take what works for you and use it.

[jane53]

Yeah; I wash every other day. And I DON'T oil. Three disgusting tries was enough. If my hair were damaged, it would be a different matter: I might keep trying. But it's fine. Why be a greaseball if I don't need to be!

[PiroskaCicu]

I don't use oils often either, and my hair gets more breakage in updos than when it's down! jane53, i think it's because we have a similar hair type!

[jane53]

I don't use oils often either, and my hair gets more breakage in updos than when it's down! jane53, i think it's because we have a similar hair type!


You might be right--though your signature photo looks curly.

My hair is medium thick, straight, and slippery. It's not shiny but it's soft and fluffly-ish. (I know; sounds paradoxical since it's straight, but there you have it.)

The fluffiness gives it body. The oil reduces it to a thin, stringy, nasty mess that I'd just want to cut off entirely if that's the way it always was.


ETA: Is it possible for hair to be simultaneously thick and fine?

[Kristin]

I think we all deviate from the LHC "rules" in some way. We forget that there really aren't "rules" about hair care here. Do what makes you happy and love your hair.

That said, I am with Ravenreed: I will continue to color my hair for a very long time. (Though I admittedly only do the roots anymore.)

[Deb!]

there really aren't "rules" about hair care here. Do what makes you happy and love your hair.


Amen!!! :D

[eezepeeze]

I shampoo with sulfates, use coney conditioners, coney antifrizz stuff, coney gels, and I sometimes heat style my hair or sleep on rollers. And I go swimming without a swim cap and sometimes fall asleep without washing out the chlorine! :p Contrarian? I guess so.

I do use coconut oil on my hair before I wash or sometimes to smooth out my hair so I can comb it.

[HikerTrash]

I imagine that the oiling threads pop up often because it's something different that most people aren't taught by their mom's growing up. So they want to try it and have to ask questions and report how it works. Before coming here I washed and conditioned every other day. Sometimes no conditioner. Wore ponytails every day. Brushed my hair wet or dry every day. It's fun to learn and try new things and see if any of them will improve my hair.

Updos, I didn't even know there were so many kinds!

[May]

I'm also a non-oiler. :)

I still blowdry and use heat (curling iron ad flatiron) on my hair. I only comb after shower and NEVER brush. I use both sulfate and sulfate free shampoo and cone free/cone conditioner Although lately I'm preferring cone free :)

I wear my hair mostly down but do wear it up sometimes.

I don't like henna...

Oh and I wash my hair every second day... WO/SO is definitely not my thing...

This site is about having and loving (long) hair and that's what brings such a diverse group together. It's pretty cool actually.

[triumphator!]

Call yourself the devils advocate for haircare! It's good that you're around for those of us like me, who are trying everything in the book to see what works. That way we don't feel like something is wrong when something doesn't work.

[Ash]

Yep. :)
Oils do not "moisturise" my hair, they make it dryer (I oil wet hair only)
Vinegar helps to clarify my hair, baking soda makes it fall out.
I use chemical dye instead of henna due to cost
I wear my hair down when out
I wash it daily

[littlenvy]

Call yourself the devils advocate for haircare! It's good that you're around for those of us like me, who are trying everything in the book to see what works. That way we don't feel like something is wrong when something doesn't work.
*nods head*
Now I have tried everything. lol
I hava a collection of every king of oil and herb powder ever mentioned on here :rolleyes: All used once only.

Can't do oil (emu oil in very small amounts is the only thing that works). :(
Can't do Indian herbs, they actually damage my hair (including Henna). Amla is the only one that semi works for me but stains my hair as well.
Honey gives me frizz.

My hair seems to look its best dry. Loves to be dry. (on the outside not inside) Its happiest coated in protein.
My hair hasn't met a comercial dye it didn't like. I tend to think it actually looks/feels better after I dye it;and it doesn't get damaged. Yet if I try henna it makes it look like straw. Go figure.

[missjessiecakes]

*nods head*
Now I have tried everything. lol
I hava a collection of every king of oil and herb powder ever mentioned on here :rolleyes: All used once only.

Can't do oil (emu oil in very small amounts is the only thing that works). :(
Can't do Indian herbs, they actually damage my hair (including Henna). Amla is the only one that semi works for me but stains my hair as well.
Honey gives me frizz.

My hair seems to look its best dry. Loves to be dry. (on the outside not inside) Its happiest coated in protein.
My hair hasn't met a comercial dye it didn't like. I tend to think it actually looks/feels better after I dye it;and it doesn't get damaged. Yet if I try henna it makes it look like straw. Go figure.

You could always put the things up on the swap bored I would love to pick up a couple things.

It is neat though how haircare changes from head to head. When I first wanted to grow my hair out I got a bbb because the article on growing hair at longlocks hair stick site said too. GAH was that bad and most of the other things go against what is best for my hair type.

[embee]

I'm a rebel too. :)

Still have some old Palmolive *dish detergent* I use (very diluted) as shampoo if my hair is icky from summer garden heat.
... that in itself is enough to banish me to the outer fringes of LHC for sure...

Finger combing squicks me badly. Ick, ugh, yeccch.

I brush, vigorously, every day. Whenever I feel like it - but for sure morning and evening.

No oils, no loose hair, no henna, no colors, no curlers, no dryer..... Hm. I'm beginning to sound like a minimalist! :)

I grew my hair long because I couldn't afford short, it looked unattractive anyway and upkeep was beyond my budget. My goal was a comfy updo that looked neat and would *stay in place*. I'm there! :) Happy dance!

[senorasunny]

I tend to have a very "all or nothing" personality, so when I first joined LHC, I wore my hair up all the time, switched to WO, and, admittedly, was a little over-obsessed with making sure that I "protected" my hair. I think that wearing my hair up did help my hair (especially by having it out of the way so that I couldn't be temped to cut it!), but I recently found out that my husband is a little disappointed that I've been wearing it up all the time. I don't feel as attractive with my hair up and I'd like to actually enjoy the hair that I'm growing, so I've recently started wearing it down more. I also started using a shampoo bar because it makes it easier to wear it down (because I get a cleaner look than with WO). If I find after a few months that my hair is becoming horribly damaged, then I might go back to wearing it up most of the time, but as I've read other people say on here, I don't want to be a slave to my hair.

[goodluckcharm]

my hair is bleached, layered, brushed. my goal length is only waist.

my hair seems to hate oils and finger combing (i don't see how hangnails or imperfect nails are any better for hair than combs.... i certainly snag my hair on my cuticles when i try finger combing). I like getting my hair cut in a salon.

I also love LHC. I love Giovanni shampoo/condish which I never would have found otherwise, and I've learned to stop straightening my wurls and curls.

Whatever works!


You might be right--though your signature photo looks curly.

My hair is medium thick, straight, and slippery. It's not shiny but it's soft and fluffly-ish. (I know; sounds paradoxical since it's straight, but there you have it.)

The fluffiness gives it body. The oil reduces it to a thin, stringy, nasty mess that I'd just want to cut off entirely if that's the way it always was.


ETA: Is it possible for hair to be simultaneously thick and fine?
I think my hair is both thick and fine as well. I have many, many hairs on my head, so I call it "thick." But each hair is very delicate and "fine." My hair is thick, but definitely not "coarse." So in my book, yes, thick and fine hair is very possible!

[jeanniet]

I wear my hair down at home quite a bit, but with the wind here if it's down when I go out it's a disaster (and I don't even want to think what it would be like at your length!). I'm contrary by nature, but not with everything. ;)

[YesitsReal]

My hair loves cones. I would go so far as to say my hair needs cones. I found this out after a year of going cone-free and dealing with a tangled, frizzy mess every other day. Sure, I had volume, but I will straight-up sacrifice volume for not having to detangle every five minutes. I also stopped clarifying once a week. Why do it if I don't need to?

Also, I only ever use oils to smooth my hair and make it more shiny. I've never noticed any conditioning benefits. :shrug:

[mellie89]

My hair is medium thick, straight, and slippery. It's not shiny but it's soft and fluffly-ish. (I know; sounds paradoxical since it's straight, but there you have it.)


My hair type is pretty similar to yours, fine but thick and fluffy and very straight, and I have a lot of the same issues.

Oiling does nothing for my hair. (I am trying shea butter soon, so hopefully that will work better.)

Those wooden combs that everyone else loves? They rip out my hair and do nothing for tangles. I use a wooden quilled brush and I love it.

My hair can't stand sulfate-free shampoos. They kill my hair's body and volume. I use SLS shampoo every 3 days and it works like a charm.

[maybe sparrow]

also i feel weird because a lot of the stuff i use on my hair is made for children.. like my regular leave-in conditioner. JOHNSON'S® NO MORE TANGLES® Leave-in Conditioner is for toddlers.. and i use it even though im no toddler.. it works so well on my tangles.. and its cheap and you only need a dime size amount for my TB+ hair.. i feel so weird telling people that..

I use No More Tangles, when I can't find my Aussie leave in stuff. (My kid finds that purple bottle totally irresistable for shaking, and sometimes it ends up in strange places. *shrugs*) It's really the same difference, aside from the smell.

Also, I can't figure out if catnip is actually having ANY effect, outside of making my hair smell weird.

And, I have no interest in growing past waist length, really. I like having an actual haircut. I don't feel like long hair = "fairy tale princess."

Plus, commercial shampoo and conditioner. (Sulfate free, but still. I shudder to imagine how drying baking soda would actually be.)

[maybe sparrow]

Oh, and yes. Brushing. And, wide tooth combing while wet WITH the No More Tangles for toddlers. Indeed.

[teela1978]

I think my hair is both thick and fine as well. I have many, many hairs on my head, so I call it "thick." But each hair is very delicate and "fine." My hair is thick, but definitely not "coarse." So in my book, yes, thick and fine hair is very possible!

They're two different measurements. "fine" versus "coarse" indicates the thickness of each strand. If your hair is very soft and cobwebby its fine, if its heavy and slick its probably coarse. Thick vs. thin is a whole nother issue. Here we measure it by the circumference of your ponytail. Less than 2 inches around is i thickness, 2-4 is ii thickness, 4+ is iii thickness. This stuff is better laid out in the hairtyping thread which should be stickied somewhere, its definitely linked to in the newbie thread (which I believe is stickied at the top of the mane forum).

[pepperminttea]

Plus hair down gets hot!!! Part of having long hair is the temperature control benefit (I'm cold. Hair goes down. I'm hot. Hair goes back up.).

And wet hair on your back on a hot day is wonderful. :D

For the OP: If it works for your hair, go with it. If it doesn't, don't. Everyone's hair is a bit different. :)

[italianamama]

My hair loves cones too. LOVES cones. Especially expensive cones. I still use SLS shampoo; after about 6 months of suffering though terrible dandruff after trying every alternative cleansing method on LHC I will KEEP my SLS dandruff shampoo thankyouverymuch. My hair HATES updos, but loves braids. I love wearing my hair down. I gave up the blowdryer but I will break out my flat iron for special occasions.

On the other hand, my hair loves oil (all oil), fingercombing, being washed only twice a week, and benign neglect in general.

I think the most important lesson I've learned at LHC is that if it works for your hair, then dangit it works for your hair! No apologies needed.

[Carina]

Oh I am so in.

Updos are so not my thing.I never ever can figure out how on earth they do it.Productjunkie that I am but updos hmmm not so much.The same goes for hairsticks and other hair toys.Must admit that I feel a bit lost in that department.

[xoxophelia]

Yes.. I pretty much NEVER wear my hair up. I am going to try putting it up for 2 weeks but I sort of mm... don't like the look of most updos :/

I wish I did.

[VitaR86]

1. Oils usually don't do anything except sit on top of the cuticle and make my hair look greasy.
2. Combing breaks my hair more than brushing and combs seem to actually create tangles. There are never any tangles or knots if I brush.
3. Fingercombing no matter if wet or dry does NOT feel gentle at all.
4. I've only ever seen one split end in my life, even though I've routinely searched for them through both long and short styles. Never had any even when I straightened daily.
5. Up-dos neither protect nor harm my hair. I only do them to keep hair from tickling me all the time.

1. Ditto. My hair like a lite oiling on the tips. Any more and it looks and feels gross.
2. I felt that way too at first till I started combing with conditioner in my hair.
3. lol, I thought I was the only one who thought that!
4. In my past, I used to blow dry and straighten. I rarely got splits from using a straightening iron.
5. I feel the same. Hair goes up, hair goes down.... no difference.

[eternallyverdan]

I guess my hair care is pretty alternative by LHC standards-- it's just completely normal for everyone else.

1. For the last six weeks I've used no product on my hair except a bit of Garnier Avocado Oil and Shea Butter Shampoo (I think they only sell it in Morocco) on my scalp-- no conditioners, leave-ins, or oils.
2. I wear my hair down for at least three and often four or five days a week, depending on the weather and where I am in my wash cycle.
3. I hate oils-- they make my hair look frizzy and greasy.
4. COing makes me shed like crazy.

[italianamama]

I guess my hair care is pretty alternative by LHC standards-- it's just completely normal for everyone else.

1. For the last six weeks I've used no product on my hair except a bit of Garnier Avocado Oil and Shea Butter Shampoo (I think they only sell it in Morocco) on my scalp-- no conditioners, leave-ins, or oils.
2. I wear my hair down for at least three and often four or five days a week, depending on the weather and where I am in my wash cycle.
3. I hate oils-- they make my hair look frizzy and greasy.
4. COing makes me shed like crazy.

Okay, I could barely read what you wrote due to my DROOLING over your hair signature picture. I hope my hair looks like yours when I hit knee!!!

[LoversLullaby]

I love to wear my hair down and blowdry my bangs. I look weird without bangs and my bangs look weird without being heatstyled. So it's a must.
And I always seem to get more breakage from updos than wearing it down, because I can't get a hairstick to stay in for the life of me! Besides, I like my hair down better. :) And I'm not growing it SUPER long, so I think me wearing updos isn't necessary really in my growing process.

That's really the only two things I do that a lot of LHCers don't. But I love my hair the way it is now, and we should all do what we love. :p

[PiroskaCicu]

You might be right--though your signature photo looks curly.

My hair is medium thick, straight, and slippery. It's not shiny but it's soft and fluffly-ish. (I know; sounds paradoxical since it's straight, but there you have it.)

The fluffiness gives it body. The oil reduces it to a thin, stringy, nasty mess that I'd just want to cut off entirely if that's the way it always was.


ETA: Is it possible for hair to be simultaneously thick and fine?

My hair is not as straight as yours but it is thick and fine. It's also fluffy and soft unless I put too much oil in it. Then it just becomes limp.

[IcarusBride]

I follow most of the 'rules' but one 'bad' thing I do is I wear the same updo almost every day. I worry it might be bad for my hair, but I really don't know all that many I can do, my hair is too long for a few and too short for most, and a lot of fancier updo's take a long time.