Is long hair and homeschooling a stereotype?

[toaster]

I was watching Last Comic Standing last night hoping for a brainless laugh, and one comedian opened with a joke that went something like


"I just got my hair cut, and I really like it. It was getting really long, and I didn't want it so long that people would think I was homeschooled."

Really? Long hair = homeschool?

Thats and American show, and I'm from The Great White North, so maybe I don't understand American culture as well as I think I do, but am I missing something?

[RoseRedDead]

Depends on where you are. All of the homeschoolers in my area (midwest) tend to long hair on the girls, crew cuts on the boys.

I am a homeschooler, BTW.

[Linainverse]

I had no idea this was a stereotype. Most people here think long hair=hippie uni student. I'm from England living in Australia...so I guess Americanisms are not my forte either ^_^

[DARKMARTIAN]

I AM an American and this makes no sense to me......

maybe it was some kind of redneck or hillbilly joke....I just dont know.

[Idun]

Is that because homeschooling is popular with certain religous groups whom also favours long hair? Per chance?

[DARKMARTIAN]

Is that because homeschooling is popular with certain religous groups whom also favours long hair? Per chance?

Nazarene's and Pentecostals did cross my mind...

but thats referring to the females obviously

[RavennaNight]

Anything can become a stereotype if an assumption is written somewhere about a group of people and massive amounts of people get to read it. I'm sure some people never thought of long hair stereotypes until they read them here. I know I never did, except for the one about metalheads and long hair. Stereotypes are learned.

[Bller]

I`m sorry if i sound stupid, but whats homeschooling? :-s

[Stagecoach]

Lets see, I was homeschooled all through school, and I knew many, many fellow homeschoolers. (My parents were vendors at homeschool conventions)

I can assure y'all, that if you ever had the chance to see a crowd of homeschoolers, you'd understand exactly where he was coming from! By far, the girls have long hair by today's standards (BSL+).

However, in the big picture of long hair in America, while homeschoolers might be a big chunk of long hair addicts, they certainly are not enough to define the sub-culture.

[Stagecoach]

I`m sorry if i sound stupid, but whats homeschooling? :-s

You don't sound stupid!

Homeschooling is when parents (generally the Mom since the Dad usually works) teach their children at home rather than sending them to a school.

It's a great way to allow each child to fully develop THEIR talents and interests, and keep their education tailor made for them.

[ifyouforget]

I'm actually really surprised that others aren't familiar with the idea. I wouldn't even call it a stereotype, at least where I'm from (Virginia/PA). If you have term length hair in those areas, and wear very modest clothing (especially jeans skirts), odds are you're either a homeschooler or a former homeschooler. I wouldn't consider it any more a stereotype than that amish women wear bonnets and single color dresses (the other very identifiable conservative group in my area).

Granted that there are certainly non-conservative homeschoolers, and uber-conservative pentacostal types who never homeschooled, but nevertheless the correlation is very strong.

And for those who are not from the US (or those that are!), the Duggar family website gives a good idea of the 'look' I'm referring to.

[Dani]

I'm from Seattle and have never heard of anything pertaining to this, and I've never noticed it. I homeschool my daughter, and I've lived in Northern Va for the past 10 years and haven't noticed any of it here either. But I'm going to a homeschooler's meeting at the park today and I'll see if any of the kids have long hair (no, not really). My dd's hair is about APL, and we're both growing it longer. :D

[Bller]

You don't sound stupid!

Homeschooling is when parents (generally the Mom since the Dad usually works) teach their children at home rather than sending them to a school.

It's a great way to allow each child to fully develop THEIR talents and interests, and keep their education tailor made for them.

Homeschool for how long? I mean doesn`t the child need some state school? highschool, college degree`s to be able to work in the end when he`s a grown up?

[dropinthebucket]

Here, too, lenainverse! long hair = hippie, hippie, hippie! now if i could just dig up some good retro clothes to match, i'd be all set! ;)

[Merlin]

Homeschool for how long? I mean doesn`t the child need some state school? highschool, college degree`s to be able to work in the end when he`s a grown up?

I think the US is more set up for the homeschooling sort of thing and I suspect their universities and employers accept it happily - they're entire political landscape is very different to ours in Europe and I think the widespread acceptance of home educated kids is part of that.

[Yarn Muse]

Homeschool for how long? I mean doesn`t the child need some state school? highschool, college degree`s to be able to work in the end when he`s a grown up?

Some people homeschool through high school; some don't. Our kids have all homeschooled through high school, though they do take some college classes for dual enrollment during the last two years of high school. They haven't had any problems getting into college. Usually colleges want to see a transcript and test scores such as the ACT or SAT. Getting into community college, however, is very easy. They take placement tests in math, reading, English, etc., depending on which classes they want to take.

Not all homeschoolers choose to attend college, or to finish a four-year degree if they do go. Some go to a technical school, or start their own businesses. It varies widely.

To answer the original question, I would have to say that, yes, the long hair and denim skirts or jumpers is sort of a homeschooling stereotype, though my family doesn't fit into that box.

[Bller]

I think the US is more set up for the homeschooling sort of thing and I suspect their universities and employers accept it happily - they're entire political landscape is very different to ours in Europe and I think the widespread acceptance of home educated kids is part of that.

Oh i get it, guess i didn`t know that. Thank you !

[GlassEyes]

Huh.

There was a girl in my beowulf seminar who was homeschooled. She had...tailbone or calf length hair, actually. xD;

I don't know if that confirms the stereotype or not because she's the only one I knew, but...she had nice hair? Quite intelligent too.

[Capybara]

I'm currently in the Great White North as well (Happy Canada Day, by the way!! :cheese:) and I have heard this stereotype numerous times. A few people at my church homeschool their children. Some have long hair (classic) and dress rather conservatively, some have short hair (above shoulder) and dress normally. I don't think it goes for all home schoolers. I myself was never homeschooled, and don't plan to homeschool, but I have long hair by today's standards :D Don't worry about stereotypes.

[ArcticNights]

I never thought about this in my entire life, thank you for broadening my horizon :D

And... I really wonder why we dont have homeschooling in Norway...? Sounds great :) :) :)

[ifyouforget]

Originally Posted by Dani
I'm from Seattle and have never heard of anything pertaining to this, and I've never noticed it. I homeschool my daughter, and I've lived in Northern Va for the past 10 years and haven't noticed any of it here either. But I'm going to a homeschooler's meeting at the park today and I'll see if any of the kids have long hair (no, not really). My dd's hair is about APL, and we're both growing it longer.

Hm, interesting. Perhaps part of it for me is that I attended private christian schools from pre-k right up through the end of college, which sort of narrows the pool of people I saw day-to-day in the first place. Especially in college I knew a *ton* of former homeschoolers, many of whom were duggar-style conservatives (and it was very very rare to meet someone of that ilk who wasn't a former homeschooler)

Also I just realised that my first post may have seemed a bit snarky- I hope no one took it that way! I have nothing against the super-conservative look or lifestyle- especially the super-modesty was something I grew up with, though not to the extent of eschewing pants for skirts.

Personally I've grown away from that aesthetic (except for the hair!), but for those who embrace it, more power to them!

[toaster]

Well, in any case, she didn't make it to the next round, so I guess your jokes have to be funny to win on that show.

[Magdalene]

Yeah, I'd say there's something to the stereotype. Not that all longhairs are homeschoolers, but that homeschoolers tend to have long hair and dress kind of dowdy. At least that was the case back home in rural America, where the only homeschoolers were those who were homeschooled for religious reasons. The homeschool group that rents from us here in the city tend toward punk/goth, with hair all over the map and piercings. FWIW.

[Schefflera]

One of the guys my state sent to this national math contest was homeschooled, and we were both seniors at the time.

I was homeschooled through fifth grade and attended a Pentecostal church -- and I, ah, completely missed the stereotype. I suppose it didn't apply locally. Most of the other kids in the church went to a standard public or private school, and hair length or style varied quite a bit for both the kids and the adults. I was homeschooled because I learned to read a little early, and my parents wanted to let me move onward at my own pace.

[BlndeInDisguise]

Some have long hair (classic) and dress rather conservatively, some have short hair (above shoulder) and dress normally.

What's that? :confused:;):D

[ArienEllariel]

Wow. That's definately a stereotype. I was homeschooled and like many of you know, my hair was always around shoulder length. The original homeschool group I was in really wasn't that much different than your average group of well behaved kids and I think there was only one long haired girl amongst them.

[Quixii]

Huh. I've never thought of that stereotype. I suppose that if someone said, "Quick! Visualize the stereotypical home schooled girl." I would think of someone with BSL-waist length hair. But it's not one of those stereo types I immediately recognize.

[twolunarspring]

I don't think this is true in the UK... I know lots of home educating families (we are a home ed family) and there's a hugely diverse range of people. I certainly have the longest hair of any home-edders I know.

I have noticed, though, mainly through this board, that the US seems to have a correlation between religious groups and home-schooling... if this exists in the UK, then I haven't noticed it. And maybe that whole 'modest dress, feminine appearance' thing is tied up with that, as well? Certainly when a lot of people on here mention homeschooling, they will also mention religion (I've seen a lot of "the problem with homeschooling is that the children get indoctrinated with their parents' religion) which I have not noticed over here, at all... but then religion is not a part of our culture to the same extent that it seems to be in the States, I guess.

[Gingevere]

I think it's because of the stereotype of homeschoolers being either evangelical Christians or hippies. And it's true that they often are, at least where I live. I have had lots of homeschooled friends, and while most of them had short or average-length hair, a large portion had long hair.

[Blandine]

Homeschooling is illegal in Germany (unless a child is long-term sick and unable to attend school because of that, which applies to maybe 200 cases in total all over the country). All children have to attend school for nine years, either public schools or state-recognized private schools. The concept of homeschooling simply does not exist here. I wonder how parents can do qualified teaching - do they receive any training for that, or just do as they like?

[slythwolf]

I live in the Midwest and am often asked if my hair is so long for religious reasons. This tickles me, because I'm actually an atheist.

[twolunarspring]

I think the US is more set up for the homeschooling sort of thing and I suspect their universities and employers accept it happily - they're entire political landscape is very different to ours in Europe and I think the widespread acceptance of home educated kids is part of that.

This is interesting. I was very much under the impression that the opposite was the case... I believe it's actually illegal to homeschool in some states (someone else correct me on this if I am mistaken?) and there are European countries where this is the case, too.

In Britain, home education is experiencing a bit of a boom, and is very popular... some children eventually go to school at some stage, many don't... and it's possible to take exams privately, or sometimes in colleges, or just not to do so at all. I've known a couple of adults who were homeschooled and didn't do any exams, but applied and got into uni anyway... different strokes for different folks.

[tofuowl]

I grew up in Maryland, and moved to Texas in high school. One of the first things anyone said to me was "oh, are you a homeschool transfer? Your hair is so long!"

I was shocked--I had no idea there was a long hair/homeschooling stereotype before moving to the south, which makes me wonder if it's a southern "thing"?

So bizarre XD

[Toadstool]

I'm in the UK and I was aware of the stereotype!
Mind you, I've seen a few documentaries about homeschooling in America and they tended to be about religious families.

[triumphator!]

Homeschooling is illegal in Germany (unless a child is long-term sick and unable to attend school because of that, which applies to maybe 200 cases in total all over the country). All children have to attend school for nine years, either public schools or state-recognized private schools. The concept of homeschooling simply does not exist here. I wonder how parents can do qualified teaching - do they receive any training for that, or just do as they like?

The parents aren't required to have any qualifications, if I am not mistaken, but children must pass Standards of Learning type tests to ensure they are on par with their peers, at least in most states.

There's a popular show in the US called "Wife Swap," where two families with different lifestyles swap mothers for two weeks. Often, they reveal the incredible deficits some homeschoolers have in their educational development, like 10 year olds who can't read because their parents can't force them to do anything in lessons, etc.

[Sunsailing]

Homeschooling is illegal in Germany (unless a child is long-term sick and unable to attend school because of that, which applies to maybe 200 cases in total all over the country). All children have to attend school for nine years, either public schools or state-recognized private schools. The concept of homeschooling simply does not exist here. I wonder how parents can do qualified teaching - do they receive any training for that, or just do as they like?

I had a many paragraph response to this, but it actually went through my brain filter before I hit the submit reply button.

I agree with the standards in Germany.

[Idun]

I never even heard of the concept of homeschooling till Sarah Pailin became a public figure. It must be an incredible challenge for the parents. I know I would go totally bonkers!

We do have some religious sects that have their own schools though. And they often have long hair and skirts. (the girls that is)

[OperaTeacherMom]

The parents aren't required to have any qualifications, if I am not mistaken, but children must pass Standards of Learning type tests to ensure they are on par with their peers, at least in most states.

There's a popular show in the US called "Wife Swap," where two families with different lifestyles swap mothers for two weeks. Often, they reveal the incredible deficits some homeschoolers have in their educational development, like 10 year olds who can't read because their parents can't force them to do anything in lessons, etc.

In Texas, the only tests you have to take are the SAT type tests to get into college. On average, homeschooled students do far better on these tests than students from Public schools. I do not think it is important for a parent to have teaching credentials as long as they are willing to put in the work and stay a few steps ahead of their student when they are young, and have resources to find help when the student is older. One great thing about being homeschooled is the self discipline, I know I personally was an excellent student when I went on to college because I was able to study on my own, rather than relying on a teacher to feed me all of the information.

The Wife Swap show tends to bring out the extremecases on both sides. The type of homeschooling you are referringto is actually called Unschooling, where there is no set curriculum. It works for some people, but the lack of structure is not necessarily something I agree with. I personally learned to read when I was 4 years old, homeschooling worked just fine for me.

As for the stereotype, I definitely understand it, I had BSL hair most of the time, but did not dress quite as conservatively as the "average" homeschooler, at least not once I passed the age of 14 or so. I even had a punk/goth phase my Junior/Senior years of High School :D I did have several friends with the stereotypical denim jumper ankle length dresses, and tailbone length hair.

[Merlin]

http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp315/merlin_LHC/deadThread.jpg

Though I'd love to be proved wrong...

[jasper]

Okay, I think I can understand the commedian's long hair to home schooling connection if the commedian was associating home schoolers with families that object to public schools on religious grounds- that they might be conforming to religious standards of hair as well. That just makes me more uncomfortable with the "joke." It kind of adds one more lifestyle to the the life choices being ridiculed.

But it also seems to make the joke more out of touch. I think home schooling is appealing to a broader range of people these days for many diverse reasons.

[hmmm]

I don't get a lot of jokes on TV these days. I think I'm getting old... at 20.

I do wish people had asked me if I cut my hair off because of religious reasons though. People are never as interesting as you hope.

ETA Oh and judging from my childhood memories of my mum trying to get all that schoolwork to make sense, I think I learnt more at home than I ever could have done at that hopeless school I went to. (I never had long hair.)
And I still don't get the joke.

[Themyst]

Heh - :o

I homeschool my kids and I have thigh length hair - my dd has hip length hair - ds has a flat top.

It all has nothing to do with religion though - I don't even go to a church. It's just personal preference - maybe subconsciously not wanting to blend in with the rest of the sheeple? Possibly.

[Tiina]

Well, there are two ways stereotypes of minorities are created. 1. By the general appearance of minority, or, 2. By the uncommon appearance of minority within minority. In the case of homeschooling it is probably the latter. While most homeschooled kids appear alike any children, it is the non-typical ones that are noticed. Long hair is fairly rare anyway and this is bound to create more interest. Thus the long haired homeschoolers are brought to the foreground and displayed while the more common looking homeschoolers are automatically thought to be the same as the children who attend to schools. I guess people find it easier to think this way.

Following the 1st is, for example, is the stereotype of former soviet republics. According to just about any american show everyone from the former SSSR is either a russian or at least a slav. While this is true for Russia itself and the slavic countries of Belarus, Ukraine and a few others, it does not appeal to every previous SSSR state. In fact, many estonians are downright insulted whenever a character reportedly from Estonia is portrayed with clearly russian characteristics and culture. As a person born only a few years before the revolution, I cannot fully understand why this stirs so much anger but neither can I understand why it is supposed to be funny or how can the writers of those shows not be ashamed of their ignorance. For the record, I can maybe put together 2-3 full sentences in russian but I can't promise that anyone who actually knows the language would understand them. :)

[sweetestday]

Around here, when homeschooling began, it was mainly conservative Christian families who's reasons to homeschool were so that they could avoid controversial subjects being taught in public schools. So I can see where that stereotype may have been right to begin with. Now, though, it has become much more popular, and people from all lifestyles are deciding that homeschooling has it's benefits.
I was homeschooled from K-12, and began when it was all very new. My parents were/are both public school teachers, so if that doesn't make a point, I don't know what will. ;) I often went with my dad to help out in his classroom when I was in high school, and saw how superior my "classroom" was at home. It made me very grateful for the education I received.
I have done a LOT of testing of homeschoolers as well, and for the most part, they test out at higher grade levels than their public school peers. (Not always... and not all parents make the best of teachers. Most do very well, though!)

[eiwonob]

Homeschooling is illegal in Germany (unless a child is long-term sick and unable to attend school because of that, which applies to maybe 200 cases in total all over the country). All children have to attend school for nine years, either public schools or state-recognized private schools. The concept of homeschooling simply does not exist here. I wonder how parents can do qualified teaching - do they receive any training for that, or just do as they like?

Here in Brazil is illegal too and the parents may lose the children guard if they do.

[Lemur_Catta]

Here it is illegal to homeschool children in elementary and middle school, unless they are very sick (there are schools in children's hospitals anyway) but when you are in high school you can study at home if you want, but to obtain the diploma you have to take the exams (a special exam to determine if you are at pace, and to admit you to the "real" exam, and then the same the other kids do...three written tests, one oral) in a public school.
Most of people who do that failed some class in high school, and choose to study at home so they skip a year and graduate in time. I also knew a boy who dropped out of school due to his extreme shyness, but studied at home and got his diploma anyway :)

[MusingFrog]

The parents aren't required to have any qualifications, if I am not mistaken, but children must pass Standards of Learning type tests to ensure they are on par with their peers, at least in most states.
.

The parents are not required to have any qualifications (in any states that I can think of anyway) and most states do not have any such exams for making sure the children are at the same level as their public schooled counterparts. Additionally, the qualification of the parent (ie, if they've graduated from high school verses from university) doesn't really have an effect on the students.

*****

While this does seem like it could be a terrible set-up if the parents isn't motivated, the reality is that homeschooled kids out-score public schooled kids on standardized tests. Homeschoolers don't have problems getting into the majority of colleges and universities in the USA and most, that choose that path, do perfectly fine at university. Parents can issue diplomas to their kids or they can belong to an umbrella group (often through a church organization) that will issue it. Homeschooling is common enough now that many applications have a check for a student that is homeschooled (instead of providing the name of the high school you graduated from).

I was homeschooled from K-12 and recently graduated with college and am currently pursuing my masters.

With all that being said, if you asked me to imaging the stereotypical homeschooled girl she would have long hair and be dressed conservatively. While not all families homeschool for religious reasons, it is a huge part of the equation. Because of that, even if the religion doesn't dictate long hair, the parents are more likely to be conservative if they are going to pull their children out of school (or not have them go to school in the first place). In that case, the girls will often grow up with their hair longer and being more exposed to skirts and dresses. Minuses the jeans dresses, my family fits that. And I knew plenty of girls in high school that had very long hair and only wore skirts and dresses.

[jera]

Here, too, lenainverse! long hair = hippie, hippie, hippie! now if i could just dig up some good retro clothes to match, i'd be all set! ;)

It's the same where I live, but this is a university town, so there are lots of people with all different lengths of hair, from shaved to classic. I like the diveristy except for buzzed headed guys. :rolleyes:


Huh.

There was a girl in my beowulf seminar who was homeschooled. She had...tailbone or calf length hair, actually. xD;

I don't know if that confirms the stereotype or not because she's the only one I knew, but...she had nice hair? Quite intelligent too.

GlassEyes, I admire anyone who's studied Beowulf. :p



Heh - :o

I homeschool my kids and I have thigh length hair - my dd has hip length hair - ds has a flat top.

It all has nothing to do with religion though - I don't even go to a church. It's just personal preference - maybe subconsciously not wanting to blend in with the rest of the sheeple? Possibly.

Hehehe. I've never heard sheeple before. :D

[NorthernDancer]

I totally get this stereotype. I was homeschooled and many of the girls that I knew had BSL+ hair. Now if this is a homeschool thing, a religious thing (we were ultra-conservative christian), or some combination of the two, I don't know. But many of my church/homeschool groups had women with long hair (at least by society's standards)

I guess it's kind of like the stereotype that rednecks have mullets. Not all rednecks have mullets, and not all who have mullets are rednecks, but it's still thought of together anyway.



In Texas, the only tests you have to take are the SAT type tests to get into college. On average, homeschooled students do far better on these tests than students from Public schools.
I agree with this. Kids who are homeschooled tend to learn better because they are getting 1-on-1 attention. If they aren't getting something you work on it until they do. Unlike regular schools where you get a "grade" and only if you fail do you have to re-take it. Most homeschoolers work until it is really learned.
Also when I was homeschooled I only did school about 3-4 hours a day. Some students who are motivated (I wasn't) can work longer hours and graduate sooner. Some graduate by 15 or 16. And a lot don't take summer breaks, they just school all year-round, so that makes for a lighter work load, and the students don't have to re-learn stuff they might have forgotten over the summer.

And the great thing is as a teen I was able to take part time jobs doing stuff I really liked and I just moved my lessons (I was doing school on the computer by that point) to the days/time I had off. As long as the work gets done, it didn't matter if I was doing it in the morning, afternoon or the middle of the night.

[jeanniet]

"Wife Swap" shouldn't really be taken for anything more than what it is--a bid for 15 minutes of fame by parents who want public attention. The people on there who send their kids to public school aren't what I'd hold up as the ideal, either. The show wouldn't fly if it couldn't find people who were in the extreme.

I know many girls who are homeschooled who have longer hair, but most girls here have at least shoulder length hair, anyway. Homeschooled guys? Long, short, and in-between. Both my boys have always had short hair, by choice (homeschooled). I think some of it may depend on the area. Here, there are both conservative homeschoolers and very liberal homeschoolers, so you're not likely to see kids fitting into any one "homeschool" mold.

[Olde Soul]

I saw that episode of Last Comic Standing, and apparently the look on my face when I heard that joke was priceless.

I've had long hair all my life, and am a recovering homeschooler. However, I see it as a perk because I never had to deal with pressure from schoolmates to get a trendy haircut. :D

[Stormphoenix]

Yes, it is a stereotype because so there is another stereotype that homeschooled kids are being raised by the stereotypically religious fanatic who doesn't want their kid(s) to be influenced by the "outside world"

one stereotype acting / reacting to another is why that comic would say such a thing

[Stagecoach]

Homeschooling is illegal in Germany (unless a child is long-term sick and unable to attend school because of that, which applies to maybe 200 cases in total all over the country). All children have to attend school for nine years, either public schools or state-recognized private schools. The concept of homeschooling simply does not exist here. I wonder how parents can do qualified teaching - do they receive any training for that, or just do as they like?

Actually, homeschooling does exist in Germany! There was a big, international case a couple years ago where the state removed a daughter from her parents because she was being homeschooled.

Anyway, here in the United States, it's generally viewed that parents, not the state, have the final say in what/how their child is taught. Of course, there are parents who don't care what their kids learn, but they are few and far between, and for the most part either send their kids to public school (free, easy education!) or don't school at all.


The parents aren't required to have any qualifications, if I am not mistaken, but children must pass Standards of Learning type tests to ensure they are on par with their peers, at least in most states.

There's a popular show in the US called "Wife Swap," where two families with different lifestyles swap mothers for two weeks. Often, they reveal the incredible deficits some homeschoolers have in their educational development, like 10 year olds who can't read because their parents can't force them to do anything in lessons, etc.

I've heard of a very, very few cases like what you mention, so I'm sure they do exist. But I do not personally know ANY homeschooler who could not read well by 10 yrs old! (And I know many 10 yr old homeschoolers who read better than the public school high schoolers I work with)

Test after test shows that homeschoolers *as a group* come out higher on testing than public schoolers. As crazy and impossible as that seems to many folks!

Most colleges are fine with taking homeschoolers, and some are begining to seek them out. Homeschoolers can sit for SAT testing whenever they wish to, so there's no concern in that regard.

[teela1978]

Test after test shows that homeschoolers *as a group* come out higher on testing than public schoolers. As crazy and impossible as that seems to many folks!


I don't think its surprising at all. Any time you select a group of children who have parents that care about their children's education and are willing to put some effort, time, and often money towards their children's education you will find a group of well educated children.

I personally think the same selection bias occurs when people compare private schools to public ones.

[NorthernDancer]

I've had long hair all my life, and am a recovering homeschooler.

:rollin: That is exactly how I feel about homeschooling somedays!

[WritingPrincess]

(I haven't read the whole thread; I'm just replying to the first post.)

Oh, yes. The stereotypical homeschooler is a girl with long hair and a denim jumper. Interestingly enough, at the last homeschool conference I went to, I didn't see a single denim jumper, and mine was the only jumper visible.


Is that because homeschooling is popular with certain religous groups whom also favours long hair? Per chance?
Partly.




Oh, and by jumper I mean a dress-like thing without sleeves, cut mostly straight, with a shirt worn underneath. I know it means something like a sweater other places.

[MementoMori]

Oh, wow, another stereotype I fit into O.O. I'm homeschooled and have long hair. :rolleyes:

[jackie75]

Heh - :o

I homeschool my kids and I have thigh length hair - my dd has hip length hair - ds has a flat top.

It all has nothing to do with religion though - I don't even go to a church. It's just personal preference - maybe subconsciously not wanting to blend in with the rest of the sheeple? Possibly.

LOL! One of my favorite words...sheeple.

I used to homeschool my kids. My hair was short. And, we are Christians.

I hate stereotypes. It just proves how very little people know about....people. :p

[teela1978]

LOL! One of my favorite words...sheeple.



I've always thought it was quite mean and rather rude myself :shrug:

[Themyst]

I've always thought it was quite mean and rather rude myself

Not me! :)

[Beatrice]

Actually, homeschooling does exist in Germany! There was a big, international case a couple years ago where the state removed a daughter from her parents because she was being homeschooled.

Anyway, here in the United States, it's generally viewed that parents, not the state, have the final say in what/how their child is taught. Of course, there are parents who don't care what their kids learn, but they are few and far between, and for the most part either send their kids to public school (free, easy education!) or don't school at all.



I've heard of a very, very few cases like what you mention, so I'm sure they do exist. But I do not personally know ANY homeschooler who could not read well by 10 yrs old! (And I know many 10 yr old homeschoolers who read better than the public school high schoolers I work with)

Test after test shows that homeschoolers *as a group* come out higher on testing than public schoolers. As crazy and impossible as that seems to many folks!

Most colleges are fine with taking homeschoolers, and some are begining to seek them out. Homeschoolers can sit for SAT testing whenever they wish to, so there's no concern in that regard.

Ah yes, reality TV and the depiction of homeschoolers, conservative Christians, professional circus performers, or any other group you want to name.

Like Stagecoach, most of the homeschoolers I know have exceeded their peers academically. One is at Georgetown, and another got a near-perfect score on the GRE. I've done pretty well myself, but I don't want to go into the details and sound like I'm full of myself. :o

That said, I won't deny there exists a minority whose idea of homeschooling is leaving kids to do whatever they want (or don't want, as the case may be). And leave it to the reality TV people to sniff those families out. TV is all about getting your attention with the freaks, and then convincing you that the exception is the norm.

[teela1978]

Not me! :)
I had a friend (not really friends with this person anymore) who constantly used it to denigrate others who weren't "alternative" enough to his mind. I think that gave me a strong negative bias towards the term.

Following along with society doesn't make people mindless sheep, people are more complex than that. With this one ex-friend, I always felt like him calling people "sheeple" took away a bit of their humanity, making him feel superior, which in my mind is kinda mean and rude.

[aksown]

That said, I won't deny there exists a minority whose idea of homeschooling is leaving kids to do whatever they want (or don't want, as the case may be).
I know a family that "unschools" and those children (13, 11, 8, 6, 2) are some of the smartest children I know. The parents realize that children need to know things to have any kind of a life so... They learn to read and do math at Mom's elbow, preparing meals. They learn biology at Dad's knee, commercial fishing. They take family walks, collect plants and pictures of animals that get put into journals and scrapbooks when they get home. Their oldest daughter (13) can tell you what all of the ingredients in a box of Mac &Cheese are and why you should avoid them. They learn to share by playing with each other with supervision by adults who can correct them. The whole family is present when Mom gives birth, at home, delivered by Dad. They built their own house a couple years ago. School is life, and their whole life is school. They are being taught to never quit learning and to think for themselves.
Like conventional homeschooling, unschooling can succeed if parents make the effort to do it right.
To the OP, that stereotype is in my mind as well, although it applies to me. I plan on homeschooling and I have long hair, but the two are completely unrelated.

[ShadowSwallow]

Homeschooling isn't for everyone, but as a homeschool graduate I have to say that in my case it was the best choice for me. It offered me a lot of freedom in pursuing what I found interesting, learn at my own pace (faster if I got a concept immediately or more slowly if it took a while to sink in), and then it let me finish highschool whenever I was so sick I was practically homebound.

In the state of Pennsylvania there are very strict homeschooling laws, and it's required that we pass standardized tests in 3rd, 5th, and 8th grade. I scored in the 90-95th percentile every year (we elected to take them annually), scored in the 97th percentile on the PSAT, got a 2190 on the SAT, graduated with a 4.0 (subjects objectively scored by tutors and a private online school I took a few classes at), and was admitted into a college that has a 50% acceptance rate. I also have very good social skills.

For me homeschooling worked very well. ;)

On the other hand, my ex-boyfriend was taken out of public school for highschool, barely managed to graduate and never really mastered the subjects (unlike my parents, his just gave him some books, told him to study them, and never checked up). He "graduated" without a basic understanding of algebra. After taking two years off (while working part-time), he finally went to community college (with a lot of naggi-er, encouragement, from me), and ended up having to take quite a few "catch-up" classes. He was also very socially inept, until he started doing speech and debate competitively.

I think we illustrate two extremes. Of course two students from any school setting could turn out the same way. It's all about fit, the motivation of the student, and the dedication of the parents. :shrug:

I met my current boyfriend at my college, he took mostly AP classes in highschool, and graduated with a high GPA. Public school was a good fit for him despite the fact that he "hated it because everyone was stupid," to quote him. ;)

ETA: I know a family that unschooled. The son now runs a photography/filming business on the side, while he restores houses as a living. He's 21 or 22 years old. He also ran a web design business. The daughter just graduated from college with a degree in comparative religion. She did need to catch up with her math skills, but other than that she was a very well-educated student.

Of course their mother had the time and resources to help them pursue their interests, which makes all the difference in the world.

ETA2: Some of the people I knew had long hair, but most had conventional hair styles... and that's the only part of this post that really sticks to the original topic of this thread. :p

[Sunsailing]

I tried not to respond at first, but I'm too passionate on this topic. I will try to not offend anyone....

There seems to be a double standard here in the U.S.. We want teachers to be highly qualified in their specific area of teaching. In my state, a teacher must have a master's degree within the first five years of teaching. Yet, parents don't have to be highly qualified, let alone qualified, to homeschool. How can one be highly qualified in all topics? In all grade levels? No one can have that kind of knowledge and background.

I'll come clean....I'm a teacher. We get quite a few home schooled students coming into public school at the junior high level (a good decision by the parents). Out of all of them, only a few students have been up to par. We had one home-schooled student this year who was so far behind in reading. I had her brother a few years back, but he started public school a year earlier. The mother said she kept her back one extra year because she was behind with reading. Yet the mother didn't actually do anything to help her reading during that extra year at home, thus she just got farther behind. And the mother basically washed her hands of anything dealing with the daughter's learning once she got to our school.
Now we have a student who will always need extra help due to her poor reading skills. And her state proficiency test scores count against our district, not her mother. We will be judged by what the mother didn't do at home for 8 years.

Home-schooling advocates always state that "as a whole", home schooled students score higher on various tests, especially ACT, SAT, etc.. IF that is true (I've never seen a true research-based study on that) there is statistically a reason for that. As the lesser capable students drop out of home-schooling as they get older, that leaves the higher functioning students thus helping the average. In the public schools, EVERYONE counts towards the average on all tests, including students with severe learning disabilities and those below an 80 I.Q.. If home-schooling had to throw some of those into the average, then it would bring the average down very quickly.

I'm sure there are parents who are qualified to teach at home. But many are not. But no one is qualified to teach K-12 in all subjects. I don't know the first thing about teaching my son to read. I'm highly qualified in science, not reading. That's why we specialize in education. I am continually improving my background knowledge, teaching techniques, etc. through graduate course work and other means. I find it insulting that some people feel that I don't have more ability to teach science than someone without any science background.

And is there anyone giving a grade card to these "home schools"?
Public schools have really changed in the last 20 years. I personally went through 12 years of private parochial schools. I've now taught 20 years in public schools. There is so much more the public schools can offer over the parochial schools. And there is SO much more they can offer over home schooling.

There is so much more to "school" than academics.

The high functioning, independent learner type students seem to stay home schooled. And most of them end up doing just fine. They would do fine regardless of where they were. The struggling home schooled student seems to end up in public school at some point when they are already behind and lacking years of specialized help. To be honest, this is probably why I've rarely seen positive results with home schooled children. I always get the home-school "rejects" (a lot of them), after the unqualified parent gives up.

There are some standards for home schooling. The curriculum for home schoolers must be approved. A lot of parents who home school actually buy into a "canned" online program, run by licensed educators. Is that really "home schooling"?

Home schooling done right can be okay. But how often is it done correctly? And when it's not done correctly, the results can have lifelong negative consequences. Kudos to those parents who can facilitate home schooling the correct way. But I've met so many parents that home schooled their students who were so poorly educated themselves, that I wouldn't even want them helping my students with homework.

If parents don't like the school district that they live in, then MOVE to a district that you feel confident in. The district I teach in is rated EXCELLENT by the state we live in. Families move into our district so their children can attend.

Everyone went to school, so everyone feels they are an expert in education. I fly often, but that doesn't make me an expert on flying! (Sure, I can explain Bernoulli's Principle to you, but that doesn't mean I'm "highly qualified" to fly the plane.) Yet since most people experienced school, they believe that they can also teach.

Studies show that children who stay home-schooled tend to be the better, higher ability, independent learner-type students to begin with. The others end up in public school at some point.
Studies also show that our top public school students out-score home-schooled students.
Keep in mind that the range of abilities is much broader in public schools, than in the typical home that home-schools.

My intent is not to insult anyone who home-schools, or was home-schooled. (I'm sure the home-schooling members here don't fit some of the examples I give.) We have friends and family who have attempted to home-school their children. Many parents who home-school have awesome intentions and are willing to give that extra time needed to their children.
If all parents were willing to give time to help in their children's education, then there would be fewer educational issues in this country (regardless of where the learning process takes place).

On the hair issue...I believe there are certain religious cultures who tend to home-school more so than other cultures. Thus the connection to home-schooling. It is more a connection with practiced religion than a correlation with being home-schooled.

I only had one student who had hair longer than mine this past school year. Her religion does not let females cut their hair. Yet she is attending public school!

[maybe sparrow]

Long hair.

Chambray jumpers.

Optional "covering."

[ShadowSwallow]

Sunsailing - I think you'd find the articles in ERIC on homeschooling (http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/simpleSearch.jsp?newSearch=true&eric_sortField=&searchtype=basic&pageSize=10&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=homeschool&eric_displayStartCount=1&_pageLabel=ERICSearchResult&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=kw) fascinating. It's a mixed bag (some are peer-reviewed, others are from clearly biased sources), but a simple search gives you several studies (with full text!). :)

ETA:
There are some standards for home schooling. The curriculum for home schoolers must be approved. A lot of parents who home school actually buy into a "canned" online program, run by licensed educators. Is that really "home schooling"?

In PA that's called "cyber schooling" and is run by the PA Department of Education. It's not counted as homeschooling by anyone, as far as I'm aware. This includes PA educators, PA law, PA school system, and the PA homeschoolers. ;)

ETA2: Here (http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp) is an article summarizing many studies done on homeschooling scholastic achievement. Now, this was compiled by a clearly pro-homeschooling organization, and most of the articles are older and not available on the internet. However, despite its flaws it's a good jumping-off point for someone wanting to study these subjects. I really want to find these studies and look at the methodology. Also, keep in mind that back when most of these were done different states were using them to determine whether or not to legalize homeschooling, and today it's legal in the entire US.

ETA3: Here (http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/200908100.asp) is the summary of a different report... I'm trying to track down the original because I want to read it, dammit! :p

[ibleedlipstick]

I tried not to respond at first, but I'm too passionate on this topic. I will try to not offend anyone....

There seems to be a double standard here in the U.S.. We want teachers to be highly qualified in their specific area of teaching. In my state, a teacher must have a master's degree within the first five years of teaching. Yet, parents don't have to be highly qualified, let alone qualified, to homeschool. How can one be highly qualified in all topics? In all grade levels? No one can have that kind of knowledge and background.

I'll come clean....I'm a teacher. We get quite a few home schooled students coming into public school at the junior high level (a good decision by the parents). Out of all of them, only a few students have been up to par. We had one home-schooled student this year who was so far behind in reading. I had her brother a few years back, but he started public school a year earlier. The mother said she kept her back one extra year because she was behind with reading. Yet the mother didn't actually do anything to help her reading during that extra year at home, thus she just got farther behind. And the mother basically washed her hands of anything dealing with the daughter's learning once she got to our school.
Now we have a student who will always need extra help due to her poor reading skills. And her state proficiency test scores count against our district, not her mother. We will be judged by what the mother didn't do at home for 8 years.

Home-schooling advocates always state that "as a whole", home schooled students score higher on various tests, especially ACT, SAT, etc.. IF that is true (I've never seen a true research-based study on that) there is statistically a reason for that. As the lesser capable students drop out of home-schooling as they get older, that leaves the higher functioning students thus helping the average. In the public schools, EVERYONE counts towards the average on all tests, including students with severe learning disabilities and those below an 80 I.Q.. If home-schooling had to throw some of those into the average, then it would bring the average down very quickly.

I'm sure there are parents who are qualified to teach at home. But many are not. But no one is qualified to teach K-12 in all subjects. I don't know the first thing about teaching my son to read. I'm highly qualified in science, not reading. That's why we specialize in education. I am continually improving my background knowledge, teaching techniques, etc. through graduate course work and other means. I find it insulting that some people feel that I don't have more ability to teach science than someone without any science background.

And is there anyone giving a grade card to these "home schools"?
Public schools have really changed in the last 20 years. I personally went through 12 years of private parochial schools. I've now taught 20 years in public schools. There is so much more the public schools can offer over the parochial schools. And there is SO much more they can offer over home schooling.

There is so much more to "school" than academics.

The high functioning, independent learner type students seem to stay home schooled. And most of them end up doing just fine. They would do fine regardless of where they were. The struggling home schooled student seems to end up in public school at some point when they are already behind and lacking years of specialized help. To be honest, this is probably why I've rarely seen positive results with home schooled children. I always get the home-school "rejects" (a lot of them), after the unqualified parent gives up.

There are some standards for home schooling. The curriculum for home schoolers must be approved. A lot of parents who home school actually buy into a "canned" online program, run by licensed educators. Is that really "home schooling"?

Home schooling done right can be okay. But how often is it done correctly? And when it's not done correctly, the results can have lifelong negative consequences. Kudos to those parents who can facilitate home schooling the correct way. But I've met so many parents that home schooled their students who were so poorly educated themselves, that I wouldn't even want them helping my students with homework.

If parents don't like the school district that they live in, then MOVE to a district that you feel confident in. The district I teach in is rated EXCELLENT by the state we live in. Families move into our district so their children can attend.

Everyone went to school, so everyone feels they are an expert in education. I fly often, but that doesn't make me an expert on flying! (Sure, I can explain Bernoulli's Principle to you, but that doesn't mean I'm "highly qualified" to fly the plane.) Yet since most people experienced school, they believe that they can also teach.

Studies show that children who stay home-schooled tend to be the better, higher ability, independent learner-type students to begin with. The others end up in public school at some point.
Studies also show that our top public school students out-score home-schooled students.
Keep in mind that the range of abilities is much broader in public schools, than in the typical home that home-schools.

My intent is not to insult anyone who home-schools, or was home-schooled. (I'm sure the home-schooling members here don't fit some of the examples I give.) We have friends and family who have attempted to home-school their children. Many parents who home-school have awesome intentions and are willing to give that extra time needed to their children.
If all parents were willing to give time to help in their children's education, then there would be fewer educational issues in this country (regardless of where the learning process takes place).

On the hair issue...I believe there are certain religious cultures who tend to home-school more so than other cultures. Thus the connection to home-schooling. It is more a connection with practiced religion than a correlation with being home-schooled.

I only had one student who had hair longer than mine this past school year. Her religion does not let females cut their hair. Yet she is attending public school!

I hate to butt in, but in all honesty, I was a wee bit offended by this. I was homeschooled, and I have consistently out-scored my peers that were "honor" students at my local high school. I have no problems socially, am nearly two years ahead of my peers scholastically, and my reading levels have been off the charts since fifth grade.

I find it surprising that you suggest, in this economy, that people "move to a better school district." My family, while being relatively comfortable, cannot afford to pick up and move to Portland, the nearest school district that would be relatively decent.

Sure, for those that have to deal with botched homeschooling, it can be difficult. You didn't mention botched public schooling, did you? It can have the similar detrimental affects, and yet you seemingly ignore them while slamming home education.

I do not support homeschooling, mainly because it is incredibly difficult to provide proof of education when attempting to get into university. I had to get my G.E.D., and my scores were excellent, to the point of my receiving a letter from the state letting me know of the opportunities available to me, and yet I must finish another year of community college before I apply to the schools that I am looking at.

I apologize for my rant, but when you state, seemingly as an expert, flawed, anecdotal evidence, it can be frustrating for us "high functioning, independent learner types."

I also realize that you said that there was an exception to this, and that you were sure that there are LHC members that are different from what you mention. I am just trying to provide POV from one such member.

[Alun]

GlassEyes, I admire anyone who's studied Beowulf. :p



I've read it to, you know!


I tried not to respond at first, but I'm too passionate on this topic. I will try to not offend anyone....

There seems to be a double standard here in the U.S.. We want teachers to be highly qualified in their specific area of teaching. In my state, a teacher must have a master's degree within the first five years of teaching. Yet, parents don't have to be highly qualified, let alone qualified, to homeschool. How can one be highly qualified in all topics? In all grade levels? No one can have that kind of knowledge and background.

I'll come clean....I'm a teacher. We get quite a few home schooled students coming into public school at the junior high level (a good decision by the parents). Out of all of them, only a few students have been up to par. We had one home-schooled student this year who was so far behind in reading. I had her brother a few years back, but he started public school a year earlier. The mother said she kept her back one extra year because she was behind with reading. Yet the mother didn't actually do anything to help her reading during that extra year at home, thus she just got farther behind. And the mother basically washed her hands of anything dealing with the daughter's learning once she got to our school.
Now we have a student who will always need extra help due to her poor reading skills. And her state proficiency test scores count against our district, not her mother. We will be judged by what the mother didn't do at home for 8 years.

Home-schooling advocates always state that "as a whole", home schooled students score higher on various tests, especially ACT, SAT, etc.. IF that is true (I've never seen a true research-based study on that) there is statistically a reason for that. As the lesser capable students drop out of home-schooling as they get older, that leaves the higher functioning students thus helping the average. In the public schools, EVERYONE counts towards the average on all tests, including students with severe learning disabilities and those below an 80 I.Q.. If home-schooling had to throw some of those into the average, then it would bring the average down very quickly.

I'm sure there are parents who are qualified to teach at home. But many are not. But no one is qualified to teach K-12 in all subjects. I don't know the first thing about teaching my son to read. I'm highly qualified in science, not reading. That's why we specialize in education. I am continually improving my background knowledge, teaching techniques, etc. through graduate course work and other means. I find it insulting that some people feel that I don't have more ability to teach science than someone without any science background.

And is there anyone giving a grade card to these "home schools"?
Public schools have really changed in the last 20 years. I personally went through 12 years of private parochial schools. I've now taught 20 years in public schools. There is so much more the public schools can offer over the parochial schools. And there is SO much more they can offer over home schooling.

There is so much more to "school" than academics.

The high functioning, independent learner type students seem to stay home schooled. And most of them end up doing just fine. They would do fine regardless of where they were. The struggling home schooled student seems to end up in public school at some point when they are already behind and lacking years of specialized help. To be honest, this is probably why I've rarely seen positive results with home schooled children. I always get the home-school "rejects" (a lot of them), after the unqualified parent gives up.

There are some standards for home schooling. The curriculum for home schoolers must be approved. A lot of parents who home school actually buy into a "canned" online program, run by licensed educators. Is that really "home schooling"?

Home schooling done right can be okay. But how often is it done correctly? And when it's not done correctly, the results can have lifelong negative consequences. Kudos to those parents who can facilitate home schooling the correct way. But I've met so many parents that home schooled their students who were so poorly educated themselves, that I wouldn't even want them helping my students with homework.

If parents don't like the school district that they live in, then MOVE to a district that you feel confident in. The district I teach in is rated EXCELLENT by the state we live in. Families move into our district so their children can attend.

Everyone went to school, so everyone feels they are an expert in education. I fly often, but that doesn't make me an expert on flying! (Sure, I can explain Bernoulli's Principle to you, but that doesn't mean I'm "highly qualified" to fly the plane.) Yet since most people experienced school, they believe that they can also teach.

Studies show that children who stay home-schooled tend to be the better, higher ability, independent learner-type students to begin with. The others end up in public school at some point.
Studies also show that our top public school students out-score home-schooled students.
Keep in mind that the range of abilities is much broader in public schools, than in the typical home that home-schools.

My intent is not to insult anyone who home-schools, or was home-schooled. (I'm sure the home-schooling members here don't fit some of the examples I give.) We have friends and family who have attempted to home-school their children. Many parents who home-school have awesome intentions and are willing to give that extra time needed to their children.
If all parents were willing to give time to help in their children's education, then there would be fewer educational issues in this country (regardless of where the learning process takes place).

On the hair issue...I believe there are certain religious cultures who tend to home-school more so than other cultures. Thus the connection to home-schooling. It is more a connection with practiced religion than a correlation with being home-schooled.

I only had one student who had hair longer than mine this past school year. Her religion does not let females cut their hair. Yet she is attending public school!

We seriously considered home-schooling DS, because of serious problems with the local schools. In the end, though, DW decided that she didn't want to commit the time. We aren't religious, but of course we do have long hair (all of us, basically). Actually, the fact that most home schoolers are religious was another black mark against the idea for us.

Frankly, though, DS is expected to graduate high school next year, and he won't have actually been taught some of the things he has been given credit for, which will hurt him when he goes to college, i.e. he will have to catch up on things that he needs for his major subject that he wasn't taught in high school but was supposed to have been. Would he have done any better with home schooling? Maybe not, but he probably wouldn't have done significantly worse.

DS is significantly above average IQ, and we are obviously above average too, if I say so myself. I wonder what happens when the parent doing the home schooling is not atall bright? Nothing good, I suspect.

We have just got the detailed report on his SAT scores. The most interesting part is not so much HIS scores, which are quite high in the reading section and at least above the national average in the other sections, but just how far below average his high school is on its SAT scores. It's rural, not urban, FWIW.

He attended two different middle schools, even though we didn't move, and frankly neither of them were much good either. His elementary school was better, but I would not rate this county as providing very good education, on the whole. It's hard to say why, but it's probably not because the teachers lack paper qualifications.

I think the school principal sets the tone for the school, and the elementary school had a good principal (I say had, because she left while DD, our younger child, was there), but all the other principals have been completely invisible (I can't even remember any of their names, including current ones). It's almost like there is nobody in charge. Could that be the problem?

[Rivanariko]

I hate to butt in, but in all honesty, I was a wee bit offended by this. I was homeschooled, and I have consistently out-scored my peers that were "honor" students at my local high school. I have no problems socially, am nearly two years ahead of my peers scholastically, and my reading levels have been off the charts since fifth grade.

I find it surprising that you suggest, in this economy, that people "move to a better school district." My family, while being relatively comfortable, cannot afford to pick up and move to Portland, the nearest school district that would be relatively decent.

Sure, for those that have to deal with botched homeschooling, it can be difficult. You didn't mention botched public schooling, did you? It can have the similar detrimental affects, and yet you seemingly ignore them while slamming home education.

I do not support homeschooling, mainly because it is incredibly difficult to provide proof of education when attempting to get into university. I had to get my G.E.D., and my scores were excellent, to the point of my receiving a letter from the state letting me know of the opportunities available to me, and yet I must finish another year of community college before I apply to the schools that I am looking at.

I apologize for my rant, but when you state, seemingly as an expert, flawed, anecdotal evidence, it can be frustrating for us "high functioning, independent learner types."

I also realize that you said that there was an exception to this, and that you were sure that there are LHC members that are different from what you mention. I am just trying to provide POV from one such member.
I don't mean to degrade any of what you're saying, but I just want to interject...

I was public schooled. My reading levels were also off the charts since 5th grade. I skipped the pre-req for the advanced math courses in middle school and got a B my first quarter while I was trying to figure out what the heck X meant, but was the top of the class the rest of the time. My teachers tried to convince me to skip general chem and just take AP chem in high school, but it didn't work for my schedule so I basically TAed a class that I was taking. I took AP english as a junior, which was strictly forbidden at my high school. My test scores got me almost a full ride into a private college.
I also have some pretty bad social issues, despite being integrated from the very beginning.

I guess what I'm saying is that yes, people fall all over the spectrum. I'm not trying to brag, but having an individual here or there who meets or rejects the stereotype doesn't make the stereotype correct or incorrect. I know people who were homeschooled who are brilliant. I also know people who are not. Same goes with public school. I know a lot more homeschoolers with social issues than people from public school, but I'm a perfect example that shows that public school doesn't automatically teach people how to interact with their peers, and I don't know everything or everyone. I'm pulling from a limited pool from the people in the small town I grew up in and the small private college that I attended. So I'm not going to pretend to have empirical evidence, just observations from my limited experience.

The point that I think most people, on both sides of the argument, try to make is that homeschooling is a HUGE commitment on the parents' part. It is not something that everyone is up to or capable of. Honestly, I don't think I'd be up for it. I have a lot of respect for parents who can do it and do it well. For a lot of families, it is the best choice. For others it's not.


To answer the original question, long hair is pretty common where I'm from in general, and most people associate it more with hippies than homeschooling and religious convictions around here.

[twolunarspring]

It interests me that people (not just here, but in general) seem to be so rigidly "pro home schooling" or "pro state schooling" when of course we all know there are no one-size-fits-all children. Now, I don't know very much at all about state schooling in the United States, or how it varies from one state to another, but here in the UK there is a lot to be desired. You can certainly get a high standard of knowledge through the state system, and there are a lot of things going for it. Ultimately, though, it's not what some parents want for their children.

And I think the thing to remember is that no one (as far as I know) is advocating that everyone pull their children out of school. Unless you were motivated and confident in your ability to home-educate your children, and provide them with a nurturing learning environment with plenty of people to socialise with, then you're not likely to choose to do it (unless the system fails you so badly that you feel you have no choice, which happens). School is a great thing, because it theoretically makes it possible for all children to receive a good standard of education (postcode lottery notwithstanding). My husband is a primary school teacher.

However: it's not what I want for my daughter. Not until she's old enough to make an informed decision, anyway. I know, 100%, that at primary school level, I (and my husband, of course) can do a better job than a school can. We *know* our daughter, and have the time to notice what she's interested in, how she learns best, how she feels... which public school-teachers just can't. My husband is teaching 32 kids all at once :shrug: and he's good at his job, he levels as best he can to do his best by all of the different abilities and personalities... but ultimately, he can't cater to their individual needs: it isn't possible.

Add to that the fact that a lots of people (and we are of this camp) are uncomfortable with the way children learn to interact with others and value themselves in a school environment (with frequent testing and all the pressures involved with that, being compared and comparing themselves to their peers constantly, and of course the survival of the fittest in the playground), then of course a lot of parents choose to opt-out of school. Because it doesn't provide what they personally believe is right for their children.

When you send your kids to school, you are delegating responsibility for their education to someone else. It doesn't make sense to do that UNLESS you believe they will do a better job than you will, for your child.

A lot of home-ed kids do go to secondary school (age 11 upwards) and many don't. Some attend for the last couple of years to take their GCSEs, others stay home until college or beyond. If they have the building block skills (good literacy, numeracy, the ability to study independently) then they have the ability to pretty much teach themselves at GCSE age... I know several people who did exactly that. Frankly, that's pretty much what *I* did, even when I was attending school. Other children don't suit that kid of learning, and so hopefully their parents make a different choice for them, in the same way that many parents make the choice to remove their child from school when it becomes apparent that they are not suited to it.

Wow, this thread has gone off-topic!

[Themyst]

I had a friend (not really friends with this person anymore) who constantly used it to denigrate others who weren't "alternative" enough to his mind. I think that gave me a strong negative bias towards the term.

Following along with society doesn't make people mindless sheep, people are more complex than that. With this one ex-friend, I always felt like him calling people "sheeple" took away a bit of their humanity, making him feel superior, which in my mind is kinda mean and rude.

Understood. But, I suppose a person with bad intentions could misuse any word.

I don't think there is anything wrong with being 'normal' - that is, going with the flow. I don't do it much - but I don't begrudge those doing it. It's when a person stops thinking for themselves that I get concerned.

I generally take the Urban Dictionary definition of 'sheeple' to be:

(http://www.urbandictionary.com/products.php?term=sheeple&defid=473713)
"An individual that forfits their right to choose in favor of inclusion in groupthink (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=groupthink) and what is viewed as popular or elete group."

[teela1978]

Understood. But, I suppose a person with bad intentions could misuse any word.

I don't think there is anything wrong with being 'normal' - that is, going with the flow. I don't do it much - but I don't begrudge those doing it. It's when a person stops thinking for themselves that I get concerned.

I generally take the Urban Dictionary definition of 'sheeple' to be:

(http://www.urbandictionary.com/products.php?term=sheeple&defid=473713)
"An individual that forfits their right to choose in favor of inclusion in groupthink (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=groupthink) and what is viewed as popular or elete group."



Ahh, but is inclusion in groupthink forfitting their right, or a choice in itself? That's where my issues come from. "going with the flow" is a choice in itself. Claiming that people who don't vary enough for the norm don't ever think for themselves seems like an extremely uninformed opinion.

[Merlin]

Ahh, but is inclusion in groupthink forfitting their right, or a choice in itself? That's where my issues come from. "going with the flow" is a choice in itself. Claiming that people who don't vary enough for the norm don't ever think for themselves seems like an extremely uninformed opinion.

Ah, but some people don't vary too far from the norm because the norm matches their world view, not because it's just the norm (which would be fine) and some don't vary from the norm because they're too lazy or too stupid to do so (which wouldn't be as laudable).

I'd say that it's group B who would be the sheeple (actually, I quite like that word)

[cm006j]

Homeschool for how long? I mean doesn`t the child need some state school? highschool, college degree`s to be able to work in the end when he`s a grown up?

Sorry if this has been said, I looked, but I was reading quickly.

There are some standards that homeschooling parents would need to meet to make sure that they are actually educating their kids. Education is required by the government, but they accept different ways of accomplishing it.

[jackie75]

I always felt like him calling people "sheeple" took away a bit of their humanity, making him feel superior, which in my mind is kinda mean and rude.

It could be seen like that. I use the term sheeple simply meaning others that mindlessly do things just because others do them. I don't mean it as a put down....just a fact that some people rather let others do the thinking for them, instead of searching for other alternatives & educatating themselves.

Majority of the time...sheeple are misinformed, the blind leading the blind...etc, etc. Depending on the circumstancances, it could lead to harm. Hence, I'm a big believer in researching everything.

That's how I have seen that term applied over the years anyway.

[Igraine]

Hope it does not derail the topic, but: comparing what I have learned in the public school, it would be highly unlikely that any non-specifically trained person could teach mathematics, physics and chemistry beyond grade 6 level (the curriculum I had). So I find it very hard to believe home schooling can provide a student top notch science education if the parent in charge didn't major in said science (SAT does not count, the math/science tests are quite easy, IMO).

So it really depends on the student's interests. A responsible parent does, I hope, realize when they can no longer cope and *will* send said student to a professional if the child wants to reach their best potential.

I've never lived somewhere where homeschooling was prevalent/even existing, so I wouldn't consider it for my own children, but I would gladly supplement whatever possible in their curriculum which they are curious about.

[WritingPrincess]

I believe it's actually illegal to homeschool in some states (someone else correct me on this if I am mistaken?)
Nope. It's absolutely legal in all 50 states, though some approach it differently than others.


Hope it does not derail the topic, but: comparing what I have learned in the public school, it would be highly unlikely that any non-specifically trained person could teach mathematics, physics and chemistry beyond grade 6 level (the curriculum I had). So I find it very hard to believe home schooling can provide a student top notch science education if the parent in charge didn't major in said science (SAT does not count, the math/science tests are quite easy, IMO).

So it really depends on the student's interests. A responsible parent does, I hope, realize when they can no longer cope and *will* send said student to a professional if the child wants to reach their best potential.

I've never lived somewhere where homeschooling was prevalent/even existing, so I wouldn't consider it for my own children, but I would gladly supplement whatever possible in their curriculum which they are curious about.
I think you're very right. I (and a number of homeschooled highschoolers in my church) have a professional math teacher tutoring me in algebra this year and geometry next year, although my father could do it if he wanted, having studied physics in college. There are online programs, co-ops which allow parents to trade lessons in their expertise, and other suchlike. I used a great chemistry textbook last year, written by a man with a PhD in nuclear chemistry (his science textbooks are quite popular in the homeschool community), and designed for self-study, even with a non-expert for a parent. There are teachers available to call and ask questions of and all the parent really needs to do is grade the tests off the answer key. I used that book, and some of my friends took chemistry at the local community college.

Homeschooling doesn't mean that the parent teaches the child everything, it means that the parent organizes the child's education and finds tutors and others to help where the parent can't do it all.

[ShadowSwallow]

Very true, Writing Princess. My higher English classes I took online, I took one of my higher science classes online (and the others were using those same textbooks, I believe), and from Algebra-on I had a math tutor, who graduated with a degree in Math from the same college I'm now attending.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that homeschooling isn't limited to parents teaching. There's a variety of parents who decide to homeschool their children, and they share their areas of expertise with the rest of the community. Plus, there are a lot of other resources. :)

[teela1978]

sheeple are misinformed, the blind leading the blind...etc, etc.

And you don't see that as a put down?!?! If someone told me I was misinformed and just blindly following what society told me to do, I would be angry because I would see that as being a put down, that the person was implying I was a mindless automaton. I don't understand how it can be seen any other way.

[Blandine]

Please let the off-topic discussion continue... To someone from a country where homeschooling simply does not exist, reading more about it and the pro and con opinions is very very interesting!!!

[jackie75]

And you don't see that as a put down?!?! If someone told me I was misinformed and just blindly following what society told me to do, I would be angry because I would see that as being a put down, that the person was implying I was a mindless automaton. I don't understand how it can be seen any other way.

Who said I was going around telling people "Your misinformed and just blindly following what society told you" ??

I wouldn't do such a thing. Especially to friends. If I had a friend that I felt was misinformed on something, I would talk to them about it. I certainly wouldn't say it like you posted.

I'll tell ya though, I was glad when someone told me I was being a sheeple. Yea, tough words....but it kicked my butt into finding the truth.

[teela1978]

Ah, but some people don't vary too far from the norm because the norm matches their world view, not because it's just the norm (which would be fine) and some don't vary from the norm because they're too lazy or too stupid to do so (which wouldn't be as laudable).

I'd say that it's group B who would be the sheeple (actually, I quite like that word)

Would the people who vary from the norm because they're too lazy or stupid to meet it also be sheeple?

I've seen that world bandied about on both sides of the spectrum and I really dislike it. People who pay taxes are sheeple, people who go to church are sheeple, people who shop at walmart are sheeple, people who "look normal" are sheeple, people who agree with the war in iraq are sheeple, people who think nationalized health care is a good idea are sheeple... basically anyone who disagrees with my world view must be following someone and not thinking for themselves therefore they're sheeple.

Its a lame copout, a way to point out the "others" who are different and stupid.

Implying that its anything but a way of putting down others is ridiculous. How can it possibly not be mean and rude?

ETA: hee hee, this thread on a different forum (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread515534/pg1) kinda talks about why I don't like the term. I read further and realized the forum was calling everyone who doesn't believe the illuminati run the world to be sheeple :) Conspiracy theorists are fun! Still, similar sentiments to my own. I especially liked this response

I've never liked this word. It seems it's a psychology escapism to consider yourself one of the "enlightened". Like you're special in some regards because you know a bit of knowledge that another does not.

When you see someone do something out of ignorance do you try to help educate them? Do you ridicule them? Do you sit back and laugh like some doofus at how silly they are?

If you believe people are misinformed, you should be out there saying it, and not in here. Go out and inform people about things.

[twolunarspring]

Nope. It's absolutely legal in all 50 states, though some approach it differently than others.



That's interesting. I remember reading somewhere (on here, I think, actually) that someone had moved to a different state because homeschooling wasn't legal where they had been living. Perhaps it was that the type of homeschooling they were wanting to do was illegal, I don't know.

[MusingFrog]

That's interesting. I remember reading somewhere (on here, I think, actually) that someone had moved to a different state because homeschooling wasn't legal where they had been living. Perhaps it was that the type of homeschooling they were wanting to do was illegal, I don't know.

While homeschooling is legal in all 50 states, the ease by which you can homeschool varies greatly from state to state. Some states only require you to send in a notice that you are homeschooling at the beginning of each year and that is all, no check-ups, no required periodic tests, nothing. Other states require notification of homeschooling, multiple check-ups a year, standardized tests, etc.

So, it is conceivable that a family that really wanted to homeschool and was having trouble with their public school district would move to another state with more lenient homeschooling laws to avoid the trouble. I know of one instance in particular where this was the case, but I don't know how common it is anymore.

Then there is also the case where someone is doing homeschooling in an illegal manner (as you brought up). If it is found that a parent who says they are homeschooling is really just ignoring their children's education then it would be illegal. Unfortunately, there are cases where neighbors or "well-meaning" extended family members will call social services on a family that is homeschooling with charges of abuse of some type - most of the time they are false but it makes the families life very difficult for a time. So, there are a lot of reasons a family might move to another state to homeschool.

[jasper]

Off topic: I had to get my glasses on and increase the text size and then think really hard before I could understand it because I kept reading that word as sheepie with an i instead of l.

[May]

I don't think its surprising at all. Any time you select a group of children who have parents that care about their children's education and are willing to put some effort, time, and often money towards their children's education you will find a group of well educated children.

I personally think the same selection bias occurs when people compare private schools to public ones.

I completely agree with what you brought forward here. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. I wish more people would acknowledge this fact.

Also about being part of the "norm" and a "sheeple"...sometimes things are the norm for a very good reason. That being said, it's always a good idea to question things, new and old, wether they are the norm or not. Obviously homeschooling and public schooling both have their strengths and weaknesses and either one can go terribly wrong as we've all seen in the media.

I'm also not one of those people that go against the mainstream or the norm just because it IS the norm/mainstream...I think that is just as "sheeple'ish" :) I just had a son and I've been debating whether or not to homeschool. I happen to have a degree in Early Childhood Education so it's not too far stretch for me. It's a viable option at this point that's for sure.

[bugeyedmonster2]

Here in Texas, it could be. It's very easy to home school your kids here in Texas. You don't really much proof that you are home schooling them. (Or so I've heard.) Plus around my neck of the woods there are a lot of Pentecostals, Apostolic, Southern Baptists and such. Females usually have long hair. Some of them also home school as they feel that their kids are exposed to stuff they'd rather not have the kids encounter.

Hmmm..

I've also remembered something; some of the smaller school districts (like Mesquite) have very strict hair codes for the boys. So yeah, if he's home schooled, then he never had to worry about the school district making him get a buzz cut.

[Tovah]

My four children all went to public school. They did very well in school and on the SATs. My daughter had perfect verbal scores and 790 in math. The reason they did so well was not only because of the school, but because of the interest that we,their parents, took in their studies and supplementing what they were learning in school. We kept a set of encyclopedias in the kitchen and there was a rare family dinner when a volume or two wasn't taken down from the shelf to prove an argument. They all learned to play a musical instrument and participated in team sports as well as taking gymnastics, dancing and fencing lessons. Apart from public school they all attended Hebrew school after school hours three days a week until they were 13 and my daughter continued until she was 16 years old.

Three of the four are college grads and the fourth is still in school. One is presently working on her PhD and another is in an MBA program. It is not so much as whether a child is home schooled or not, it is more of the enthusiasm for learning that is engendered by the family as a whole. If a child is instilled with a healthy sense of curiosity and the means of satisfying that thirst for knowledge are readily available, the child will thrive and learn.

Yes, I have a teaching license, but gave that up way before my first was born. I am a firm believer in public schools, but if you live in an area where the public schools are not performing well, then there is the option of private schools or home schooling. Very few families can afford private school.

[bugeyedmonster2]

Homeschooling is illegal in Germany (unless a child is long-term sick and unable to attend school because of that, which applies to maybe 200 cases in total all over the country). All children have to attend school for nine years, either public schools or state-recognized private schools. The concept of homeschooling simply does not exist here. I wonder how parents can do qualified teaching - do they receive any training for that, or just do as they like?

I'm wondering if I should post this or check to see if someone else answered this...

Anyway...

I knew someone in college who was into a very conservative Christian religion. She was getting her degree in child education because part of her belief system was that the woman was to stay home with the kids. (I want to say she wasn't the only one getting such a degree for said reason.) In that case I'd say she and her circle probably would be qualified to teach their own kids in home school.

I think she also intended to home school her own kids when she had them.

I also knew a girl who was finishing up her home schooling. She was using books from a correspondence agency that ran some sort of home schooling service. They send you your workbooks (I'm assuming she paid for them) and when she had filled them out she sent them back. So obviously her mother didn't need to have training for home schooling. Her mom had her home schooled because they were Neo-pagan, I believe.

(I've heard neo-pagans claim that there is are too many anti-non-Christian attitudes in public school.)

Ha, the religious thing runs all the spectrum, doesn't it?

Oh, I did know a boy in high school who home schooled for a year. He had contracted mono, so his parents hired a tutor for him.

Does that help give you any examples?

[bugeyedmonster2]

http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp315/merlin_LHC/deadThread.jpg

Though I'd love to be proved wrong...

I LOVE THAT PICTURE! Where did you find it? Can I copy it?

[bugeyedmonster2]

GlassEyes, I admire anyone who's studied Beowulf. :p

Hehehe. I've never heard sheeple before. :D

I studied Beowulf a little in high school. I'm with you on the admiring! Beowulf... I don't know, but the guys' boasting sort of turned me off. Someone told me I should go back and re-read it with the idea that they were telling tall tales.

Sheeple I've heard from "Dr. Horrible's Sing A-Long Blog." It's a really funny morbid black humor musical that parodies superhero stuff. You can find it on YouTube.

:D/
BEM
*singing* Make the Bad Horse gleeful, or he'll make you his mare...

[bugeyedmonster2]

If parents don't like the school district that they live in, then MOVE to a district that you feel confident in. The district I teach in is rated EXCELLENT by the state we live in. Families move into our district so their children can attend.


That can be hard to do. In Dallas, most of the better school districts, the houses are too expensive for some parents to afford. The houses can be $300,000 or higher.

Where I live the houses are cheap, (average $50,000 to 100,000.) and so are the schools. Most of the elementary schools are at 'acceptable' in the rating or below. The state or federal government (I can't remember which one) has been threatening to close Spruce High School because it's been so low performing for more than 5 years. (I'm of the opinion they should just close it, Spruce H.S. is a lost cause.) Now the other high school near me, Samuell, has also been low performing for the last few years.

Florence middle school actually had a problem with some rapes in the bathrooms a few years back.

Oh, and I must not forget Urban Park elementary, where vandals broke the windows and DISD decided not to replace them. So the kids were going to a school with boarded up windows. They have also had several maintenance problems at that school but of course DISD can't be bothered to take care of the problems.

A friend of my sister's was a BP teacher. He complained that DISD would always have more kids in his classes than was allowed. BP kids are behind, and class size limit was 7, I think he said, but he had over 20 kids in his class.

Oh, and if you want to hear about the circus that is the Dallas Independent School District school board, just google Hinojosa+DISD.

I don't have kids, but if I did, and I couldn't afford to move, I would definitely home school.

[bugeyedmonster2]

(and a number of homeschooled highschoolers in my church) have a professional math teacher tutoring me in algebra this year and geometry next year,

I wish I had that... both my sister and I had terrible math teachers. Mine knew how to do math, he just couldn't show us how to do it. Everyone who was in his classes either failed or got a D. Guess what; If you got a D, you weren't allowed to retake the class. (I wanted to retake it, as I knew I would not be able to do college algebra without it.)

I still have no idea how you are supposed to add letters...

My poor sister got caught in the middle of the teacher shortage. Her math teacher was certified to teach Spanish. But they ended up with workbooks for the Spanish, and her Spanish teacher was supposed to teach the kids math. My sister said he would lose himself in trying to explain things to them. He ended up giving them worksheets. (I think a lot of stuff was exempted because of that teacher shortage.)

[hairg33k]

I used to be home schooled (stopped in 3rd grade) but my sister is currently home schooled (she just never really wanted to stop - i made the choice to go to public school) and she has a lot of home schooled friends too. I've always heard the stereotype that home schooled kids are extremely sheltered and everything, but i've never had anyone associate long hair with homeschooling.

[ShadowSwallow]

Sheeple I've heard from "Dr. Horrible's Sing A-Long Blog." It's a really funny morbid black humor musical that parodies superhero stuff. You can find it on YouTube.

You can also find it on Hulu, and watching it this way actually gets money back to the producers, etc. ;)

I'm a HUGE Joss Whedon fan myself, and Nathan Fillion... :inlove:

[bugeyedmonster2]

You can also find it on Hulu, and watching it this way actually gets money back to the producers, etc. ;)

I'm a HUGE Joss Whedon fan myself, and Nathan Fillion... :inlove:

Is it back on Hulu? Last time I checked it wasn't on Hulu anymore. :cry:

[OperaTeacherMom]

bugeyedmonster2, I'm in the DFW area too, and I agree that it would be impossible for us to move to get into a better school district because of the same issues with budget constraints. The one I'm in now actually isn't terrible, but isn't great either. The one I taught in last school year (08-09) was AWFUL, I have so many horror stories from my year of teaching middle school that it's not even funny. I believe the worst of these include the pickle-in-a-condom being thrown across the lunchroom (the AP just told me to "clean it up, we'll never figure out who is responsible so why even try?"), the choir concert I put on where exactly 4 people showed up to watch (there were 50+ in choir, so the majority of their parents weren't there), and the fundraiser I threw that ended in a fight that I had to attempt to break up even though I was 5 months pregnant at the time. I got kicked in the shin so hard I was limping for a week and had a horrific bruise.

Not to mention that "No Child Left Behind" basically means EVERYONE gets left behind because the teacher isn't allowed to fail a student; even if the student doesn't turn in a single bit of assigned work, they have to be given 87,956 chances to make it up, or you aren't allowed to give them a failing grade. Sometimes, a second or third chance is NOT a good thing because there is no incentive to pass the first time.

As a former homeschooler who has experienced the public school system, I have made the decision to stay at home and teach my children in a less chaotic environment that is actually conducive to learning. Of course there are better schools in some places, but there are just some things that I don't want my kids exposed to at that age, like 12 year olds having sex in the bathrooms.

I was involved in many higher level classes outside my home in the High School years, not every parent teaches every subject themselves. I took choir, ballet, AP english, and Algebra my Sophmore through Senior years, and excelled in all of them. I had no trouble at all in any of my college classes, including Science.

[beachlover]

I live in Virginia and a lot of families here choose to home-school their children, most that I've seen do typically have a large family, 5 or more kids. The mother homeschools while the father works. The girls seem to always have really long hair and wear long denim skirts or jumpers. I think it has to do with religious beliefs?? Not sure though!

[bugeyedmonster2]

I've read it to, you know!

Frankly, though, DS is expected to graduate high school next year, and he won't have actually been taught some of the things he has been given credit for, which will hurt him when he goes to college, i.e. he will have to catch up on things that he needs for his major subject that he wasn't taught in high school but was supposed to have been. Would he have done any better with home schooling? Maybe not, but he probably wouldn't have done significantly worse.


That happened to several folks I or my sister know. My sister and I were sent by our parents to a private school in elementary that was run by nuns. They kept that class in order and made us learn. They were also available for tutoring if anyone needed help. It's only in high school where stuff fell apart.

A friend of my mom's moved from New Mexico to Dallas, because she wanted her girls to get better in English. Plus their home district was a year behind. When she wanted to put her girls in bilingual education classes, the teacher told her that the classes were only for boys.

I was helping a friend edit his comic book and I asked him how he managed to graduate with such terrible English skills. His parents couldn't help him, and when he asked the teacher, he was told the teachers weren't there to help him.

He's not the only one I've know with such bad English skills. Stuff I learned in elementary from those nuns I've seen folks struggle with.

Heck, I didn't progress in math past elementary because none of my math teachers knew how to tell us how to do geometry or algebra.

My sister, who also had a bad math teacher, had to take remedial math courses for stuff she should have been taught in high school. I remember she dropped one remedial course after the teacher walked in on the first day and told the students, "You wouldn't be here if you had paid attention in high school." That's not a good attitude for a teacher to have.

You mentioned you live in a rural area? My dad grew up in little towns in the Northwest (logging family) and my mom was really horrified at a note one of his teachers wrote. I don't remember the note, but I remember the way my mom was surprised at the bad spelling and grammar the teacher used. My grandma said that the small towns in rural areas had trouble attracting good teachers.

My dad has horrible grammar. Once, to tell us he'd fed the animals, he wrote "the animals have been eaten." lol! He always uses wrong tense. But I suppose if you had bad teachers in school, then you are not going to learn the right forms or whatnot.

[Merlin]

Would the people who vary from the norm because they're too lazy or stupid to meet it also be sheeple?


Err, that's what I said?

The group B people are the lazy and stupid, that would be the second one of my groups? The group A people are the ones for whom the norm fits their world view and as such are not the sheeple. If you think about it, sheep only do what all the other sheep do because they're too dim to do anything else. Go on, when did you last see a sheep go "Hey, why don't I head off over there instead?", though of course if they did all the other sheep would follow them...so, and this has just occurred to me that the FIRST person to define a change in the norm is not a sheeple!

[Merlin]

I LOVE THAT PICTURE! Where did you find it? Can I copy it?

Feel free, I cribbed it off another (not defunct) forum where one of the members used it regularly for threads which had all the signs of being train wrecks - I'm guessing that he lifted it from somewhere else.

[toaster]

Reading this thread makes me very thankful for the education my kids got. Two of the three have graduated from the public system, the third will graduate next year.

My wife and I were very involved in the school and our kids education because we believe it is our responsibility, and the education they got was top notch because they had teachers and administrators that really cared about their students. Their middle school has got recognition nationally from the office of the Prime Minister. Their high school has the most diverse language studies in the province. The have partnerships with technical schools and colleges so trades can be learned prior to graduation. And we live in one of the poorest areas of our region with a reputation of high crime, but there have been no issues with drugs or violence in our schools (same cannot be said for the more wealthy areas of town).

I know I could not have homeschooled and done a better job, so I'm very thankful we have a good public system where I live. That doesn't make me a sheeple, it makes me blessed.

[Crackaleen]

I haven't read through all of the replies, but definitely an interesting topic. I've been on both sides of the coin - I went to public school from K-7 grades and then was homeschooled 8-12. I'm definitely familiar with the homeschooled=long hair, conservatively dressed, rather devoutly religious groups. It wasn't completely true in my case; obviously I have long hair, but my family is the antithesis of religious and I wouldn't say we dress conservatively at all. If anything I tend to be more toward the hippie stereotype (though I don't completely fulfill that one either). ^.^

Anyway, my parents took me out of public school because at the time I was heavily into figure skating and was showing some promise. Homeschooling made it easier to work with coaches and get more practice time on the ice, plus the high school I would have gone to was not a great one and my parents weren't in a place where they could just pick and move. My parents purchased prepared curriculums from different schools that came with lesson plans already laid out and all the necessary books and supplies. I actually largely taught myself since my mom had to go back to work around that time. I didn't come away with a good view of homeschooling - I have a lot of issues with it, but my main one is that I feel like my social skills suffered a lot during those high school years and I struggled in college when it came to making friends. I'm sure homeschooling works well for some families, but I will not be homeschooling my future children.

[Arniky]

guess not much corelation is there but education obviously is a msut- home or public to be decided on which one is feasible/convinient etc home schooling ofcourse can take few more liberties with hair. know of home schoolers with long hair even boys as also longhairs in publis system

[beez1717]

Homeschool isn't a stereotype. That would be bose jvc Sony or...... Wait not types of stereos? No music? Nope I never heard this stereotype in my life. lol. What ya learn these days!

[bugeyedmonster2]

Homeschool isn't a stereotype. That would be bose jvc Sony or...... Wait not types of stereos? No music? Nope I never heard this stereotype in my life. lol. What ya learn these days!

:lol: :rollin:

[Misha96]

:rolleyes:I am a high schooler and I'm home schooled. I have waist length hair and wear long skirts and it is because I'm Pentecostal. But I don't think that it should be stereotype at all. Many people home school their children and do not have long hair and wear skirts. To me its VERY unfair!!!!!:disgust: :(

[milagro]

In my country homeschooling is uncommon and usually it's the case of a sickness or some very intensive training (junior sportsmen, musicians, circus kids and even that's rare) that prevents attending regular classes. But long hair is still associated with more traditional family background, maybe that's similar to what OP described.

[Joliebaby]

John Taylor Gatto's book "Dumbing us down -the hidden curriculum of compulsory schooling" is a great book. He was elected both New York City and State teacher of the year, having a decades long career as a teacher so he is pretty qualified to talk about the subject as well.

[bte]

Maybe they assume that a cshool wold enforce a hair length dress code, whereas a home school wouldn't.

It's not a very good joke anyway!

[Kherome]

If someone has already said this, I apologize.

The reason why homeschooling and long hair are tied together, IMO, is because most of the homeschoolers in my area are religious. The Bible commands that they follow are first that are to set themselves apart from the sinful world, hence the dressing modestly and differently from most folks...and second 1 Cornithians says that a woman is to have long hair for it is given to her as her glory and her covering, and a woman must cover her hair. So, for those 2 reasons, homeschooling and long hair became associated for many.

[Miriela]

In my state, no, the parents don't have to have qualifications, however, the student must either be under the supervision of a certified teacher or take standardized tests every year.

I went to a good school and was excelling, but that didn't mean it was the best or most appropriate education for me. I am grateful to have had the option to homeschool. It made the college application process a bit of a nightmare (I had four transcripts) but it was absolutely worth it. My situation is a complicated one to explain, but the short version is that homeschooling allowed me to continue my foreign language studies at an advanced level and let me go more in depth with subjects that interested me while more than keeping up with my general education requirements.

The only homeschoolers my high school has seen have been ones that far exceeded what they expect of their own students. Even still, they have changed their policies to only allow transfer credits from accredited courses/schools. Previously they would review the student's work or assess the student's level. They are within their rights to only accept accredited credits; I am grateful I was grandfathered in to the old policy (which was "we have no written policy so just wing it", lol).

Anyway, the local homeschoolers I know do not tend to have long hair, but I don't tend to hang out with the religious ones. My group is more the crunchy granola hippies, who use natural hair products, and less the conservative Christians, who keep their hair long.

[Bene]

Someone bumped an old thread :)

I avoided this thread the first time around because I don't care enough about "homeschooling vs. compulsory schooling" to have anything constructive to add. But the thread came back, and I finally have something to add. At least in regards to the original intent of this thread.


Long(er than average) hair and homeschooling: it is a stereotype. Yes. It's not the only stereotype about homeschoolers nor is it the only only stereotype about long haired people. But over the years, it has become apparent that there seems to be some relationship between the amount of homeschoolers running around and the incidence of long hair among those the lady population amongst homeschoolers.


A stereotype is a stereotype because enough people of a certain type have been witnessed or noticed sharing a particular characteristic or behaving in a certain way. It doesn't mean all. It doesn't mean most. It just means that noticeable members of a particular group have shown a particular trait and outsiders don't know enough about the entire group to decide whether or not it is true for every member.


For example, not all NYC'ers sound like Tony Danza. But for some reason, people seem to think we all say "cawwwwfee" instead of coffee. That accent is incredibly regional, actually limited to certain parts of NYC. The thing is that enough people from those particular regions have made it out and made the accent famous, and outsiders don't either learn about us before they speak about us, or just don't care.




Now, about those nasty sheeple comments and implications I saw floating around in this thread. While homeschoolers have every right to educate their children at home without being mislabeled or called names, I think people who rely on compulsory educations deserve that same right. Ideally, parents are supposed to supplement, at home, whatever the kids learned at school. That's what homework is for. I don't think it's fair to blame an entire educational system if parents aren't doing their parts at home. And it's certainly not fair to the parents who do help their kids at home to be insulted because that's the choice they made for their family.

[Miriela]

Someone bumped an old thread :)
:doh: Hahaha I didn't even notice. Usually I notice.

Ideally, parents are supposed to supplement, at home, whatever the kids learned at school. That's what homework is for.
Technically it's the teachers supplementing the work at school with additional work for the student at home. My parents were never involved in my homework, even in early elementary school, and when they HAD to be involved in a specific assignment, it was always a struggle. Not because they were uninvolved or hate education-- just because it didn't fit with routine and was inconvenient and difficult to remember to do. :shrug:


I think school can be an appropriate place for a student. I just also think home (school) can be. I also think both places can be inappropriate places for a student. It all depends on the student and family in question.

[Bene]

:doh: Hahaha I didn't even notice. Usually I notice.

Technically it's the teachers supplementing the work at school with additional work for the student at home. My parents were never involved in my homework, even in early elementary school, and when they HAD to be involved in a specific assignment, it was always a struggle. Not because they were uninvolved or hate education-- just because it didn't fit with routine and was inconvenient and difficult to remember to do. :shrug:


I think school can be an appropriate place for a student. I just also think home (school) can be. I also think both places can be inappropriate places for a student. It all depends on the student and family in question.


I agree with you. I just think that the parents really should be more involved. If the kid doesn't need the extra help, then fine. No real parental involvement. But if the kid is really lagging behind, then homework is a really good way for parents to see what's going on with the curriculum. Perhaps offer a different way to help the kid understand. The one time anyone ever helped me with my homework, my dad took 5 minutes to show me a different way to subtract numbers, different from how the teacher was teaching me.


I just really think that it's not fair to look at test scores and blame a school and the teachers, if the parents are doing absolutely nothing at home to help their kids. 30 seconds to half listen to your kid tell you about his day at school doesn't count. I think it's irresponsible to drop your kid off at a school, take no interest in what they're doing, and then expect the kid to be doing well, and when they're not, blame the school. (I got a thread closed down for saying something similar, so I won't expand on this thought any further)


I think a lot of people who homeschool do so because they are simply not satisfied with how the school system works. Be it lack of attention to special needs or alternative views on politics and the governments take on certain issues. I DON'T think it means they are more dedicated as parents, no more so than the parent who keeps an eye on what his kid is learning at school. They just have a different approach to what they think is necessary when educating children.

[mrs_coffee]

My kids are/were homeschooled. My oldest is in college now. In this area people who homeschool mostly for religious reasons tend to have more long hair and dresses only women and girls. People who homeschool for nonreligious reasons tend to look pretty much like anyone else in society.

I really hate the "us vs. them" mentality. It's so lame and completely unhelpful. Both methods can be great, both methods can suck. Educational nirvana does not exist. We're all just doing the best we can for our kids.

It also irritates me that many people expect homeschooled kids to outperform traditionally schooled kids on standardized tests to "prove" that homeschooling is okay. Homeschooled kids are just kids. They are no better or worse or smarter or dumber than traditionally schooled kids. All of the comparisons and feelings of superiority from either side are just...I don't even get it.

[lascuba]

Even though I know better, my automatic assumption when I think about homeschoolers is that they must be extremely religious, and very often people that religious don't allow females to cut their hair. So, yeah, the joke makes a lot of sense in that context, and it would probably be especially funny to those whose only knowledge about homeschooling comes from the Duggars.

[Miriela]

Bene, I completely agree with you. :) I think it boils down to, parents should be involved in their kids' lives, and for a kid in school, school is half of their waking life (during the week). Thus, parents should be involved in their kids' schooling, however it happens.

[Arya]

Even though I know better, my automatic assumption when I think about homeschoolers is that they must be extremely religious, and very often people that religious don't allow females to cut their hair. So, yeah, the joke makes a lot of sense in that context, and it would probably be especially funny to those whose only knowledge about homeschooling comes from the Duggars.

Those are basically the only homeschooled kids in Ontario. Our education system is stellar (except in one or two small regions) so private school or homeschool usually means fringe religious groups. Although you can usually tell from what sort of group longhairs are from. Metalheads are obviously metal, Pagan chicks are obviously Pagan, and very religious Christians are really obvious too. I gotta say, I really dislike the long hair long jean skirt when teemed up with a big loose "Christian Youth!" whatever t-shirt that seems to be the super religious Christian uniform for girls here. Just on a stylistic level it makes me wince.

[pepperedmoth]

Often, they reveal the incredible deficits some homeschoolers have in their educational development, like 10 year olds who can't read because their parents can't force them to do anything in lessons, etc.

One of my good friends didn't learn to read until he was 11 because he was homeschooled and didn't care to. His parents read to him instead. He graduated summa c u m laude from the college where we met and is doing well in pursuing his PhD, so I'd say it didn't cause permanent harm.

It's funny, I've known tons of homeschooled kids and they were all from super-liberal families who thought the public school system was a tool of the conservative government to inculcate the youth. I don't think I realized until the past two or three years that the stereotype is that homeschool kids come from super-conservative families who think that the public school system is a tool of the liberal government to inculcate the youth . . . this entertains me.

Either way, though, most of my homeschooled friends have had long hair.

I went to public school and think I turned out fairly well, but maybe I'm just one of the sheeple. :eyebrows:

Edit: LHC wouldn't let me use the Latin for "with highest honors" because one of the words can be used in another context. Please forgive me for working around it.

[KLin]

Wow, long hair and homeschooling. Yep, we fit that stereotype but not the picture people think of.
My DH works at home, he is an engineer-geek. He had waist length hair when he was a rocket scientist. He rode a motorcycle and played beach volleyball. He was raised in a very Christian home. He builds hot rods and loves heavy metal and jazz.
I have science, design and art degrees with a masters degree in education (specifically in curriculum and instruction). My hair is about waist length. I am more Buddhist in thoughts.
My two sons are ahead academically because they study year round. We take breaks when my husband has time off and travel. The boys began to write at 3 yrs and both were reading by 5. We are all in mixed martial arts and travel a lot. Oh yea, my boys are 6 yrs and 8yrs old and have mid-back length hair.

[mrs_coffee]

One of my good friends didn't learn to read until he was 11 because he was homeschooled and didn't care to. His parents read to him instead. He graduated summa c u m laude from the college where we met and is doing well in pursuing his PhD, so I'd say it didn't cause permanent harm.

None of mine learned to read before they were 8. My son was 11. I never considered it a deficit, I just considered it waiting until they were ready. They all learned to read well in a week or two. My son is 12 now. I had him tested over the summer and he's reading at a 12th grade level. He loves Tolkein.

For every homeschooled kid who isn't up to par, we can find at least one public schooled kid who is underperforming as well.

Whenever there is any kind of perceived deficit in a homeschooled kid the first thing people blame is homeschooling. But if a traditionally schooled kid exhibits the same, it's blamed on lack of readiness or a personality trait (i.e. schooled kids are just shy - homeschoolers are unsocialized). I never hear recommendations of pulling kids out of school when the kids' test scores aren't up to par, it's almost always blamed on something else (typically a lack of funding).

[BranwenWolf]

For every homeschooled kid who isn't up to par, we can find at least one public schooled kid who is underperforming as well.

Whenever there is any kind of perceived deficit in a homeschooled kid the first thing people blame is homeschooling. But if a traditionally schooled kid exhibits the same, it's blamed on lack of readiness or a personality trait (i.e. schooled kids are just shy - homeschoolers are unsocialized). I never hear recommendations of pulling kids out of school when the kids' test scores aren't up to par, it's almost always blamed on something else (typically a lack of funding).

Yes to all this.
I was homeschooled to my senior year in high school, and jumped right in at the community college due to ACT scores.
I've always had social problems. People liked to blame it on homeschooling but we only started at 5th grade, because I had a horrible time in elementary school.

I loved having time to train my mule (big high school project!) do extra science work and go on field trips. The last two years I did about 4 hours of schoolwork a day but we also went year-round. Homeschooling gave me a refuge to get an education without being tormented by bullies.

[geosangel]

haha..I just started home schooling my son, this year..and I'm growing my hair long, and I love long jean skirts (because there comfy) and he has a crewcut..and I'm originally from PA...funny I never thought about the typical stereotype pic, but I guess I'd surely fit it...lol:p

[Wind]

I think stating that long hair = homeschooler is no more true than stating non-homeschooler = any one thing. We are just as diverse. :flowers: For what it's worth, I was homeschooled by my dad. That is just one example of my non-stereotypical childhood.

[ShadowSwallow]

I've never found any homeschool vs. private school vs. public school discussion lead to anything other than a heated argument. :p

However, I had a fantastic experience and education from being homeschooled. I was involved in a lot of groups where I took outside classes from other homeschool mothers that had specializations in different areas, I took a standardized state test every year and scored in approximately the 97th percentile, although I was never told that... and I think my mom definitely did the right thing to keep it from me. I had a math tutor (she holds a bachelor's degree in math from the same college I'm now attending) when I got to a level too high for my mom to handle. It also allowed me to complete school when I was extremely ill.

While I excelled and got a fantastic education due to my mother's very hard work and diligence, out of my entire group of homeschooled friends there are two that were just not suited for it. One was pulled out of public school by his mom when he entered highschool. She handed him books and did nothing else. He never took the SAT or ACT. Two years after he graduated I started nagging him and explaining how important college is; a year later he finally enrolled in the local community college (and is getting straight As). The other guy was put into private school at the beginning of highschool and that was absolutely the best option for him.

I also have a friend who flourished in public highschool and due to her family situation homeschooling would have been absolutely devastating for her educationally and emotionally.

It's impossible to make blanket statements and it very much depends on the family. However, I have to say that I think there needs to be more regulations in some states to ensure that students are actually getting an adequate education. I come from the state where homeschooling is the most regulated. It's a huge pain and I think that several policies are nothing more than dumb show, but some of them are very good markers for both the student and parents, such as the requirement for standardized testing in 3rd, 5th, and 8th grades, as well as passing a certain number of basic classes in order to be considered a highschool graduate. This is a very unpopular opinion among most I know, though. ;)

[Vani1902]

I was homeschooled from 5th to 10th grade. I did not have long hair. So, no stereotype here. I also don't have any social issues.

[Anywhere]

I'm American, I've never heard this before.

It doesn't even make sense to me to be honest. How would you know if someone was homeschooled unless you knew them or asked? or just assumed? :confused:

[ShadowSwallow]

It's pretty obvious when a family of school-aged kids is out in the middle of what's normally considered school hours. ;)

Other than that? You really can't know unless you ask.

[WaitingSoLong]

Well I have enjoyed reading this thread! Most of what I would have said was already posted by someone else.

I think the stereo type I dislike, tho, is that if you have long hair it must be for religious reasons. And I think this is more likely in rural areas (having lived both rural and urban in my life). Especially if you dress conservatively and...heaven forbid...have a denim skirt or dress on. However, having funky colored hair disqualifies you. LOL.

I know that when I was in high school (early 90's) that you were homeschooled pretty much only if you were a delinquent. In my case, there was an "alternative school" where the delinquents and pregnant girls went. That is where I went. LOL. Yes, I got pregnant in high school. Hey...I graduated!

I am Christian and used to attend a fundamental Baptist church and 90% of the kids there were either homeschooled or sent to a private Christian school. In fact, I was basically told I was a bad parent because I send my kids to public school. Honestly, I do not have the patience to teach my own kids. I have my other reasons for choosing to public school my kids, too. But that is off topic.

Around here if you see denim skirts and longer than usual hair, you ask them if they are homeschooled and YES they are. Homeschoolers are also renowned for being above average than public schooled kids. They graduate early, are over-achievers, very polite, well disciplined, honest, hard workers, etc. I have seen just as many jokes about homeschoolers being doctors at age 5 or the like.

I think whoever said that the stereo-type is set because the long-haired kids tend to be in the spotlight is right. There are a lot of homeschooled kids that no one knows are Home-schooled because they DON'T fit the stereo type.

And to answer a question about qualifications, the only qualification to teach your own kid is a GED or high school diploma. I, too, have always had an issue with that (my kids are learning math I never learned, how could I possibly teach it?) and they are still accountable to the federal or state standards. I have never heard of it being illegal anywhere. but then I also know if you are doing it for the right reasons, there are a zillion resources to make sure your kids are properly taught. Homeschooling seemed to be a fad for awhile. Maybe it still is. But I know the religious groups that tend to homeschool have good reasons for doing so and for some reason those kids seem to stand out as the prototype homeschooler in appearance. Some religious groups have always homeschooled, it just seems to be more "out there" now.

[boudica]

My husband was homeschooled and has gorgeous waist length hair. He was in public school until high school when his Mom took him out because the school was terrible.

He has a gentleness that hasn't been beaten out of him by the hyper-intense and unnatural social experience that characterizes public school where we come from.

I had two brief periods of homeschooling because we were living in another country and I remember those times as being so much less stressful than when I was in public school.

For the kids who are socially awkward, public school, with its terrible student to teacher ratio, is torture.

Kids can be very mean.

[CaityBear]

Some of it might be religion. That's all I can think of. At least where my boyfriend lives religion, homeschooling and long hair all seem to be related.