How do you know if you have fine hair?

[Idun]

I have put F/M in my profile, mostly because I am unsure what my hair is. Hairdressers allways said I have fine hair, but I know some people who have even finer hair than mine. Mostly that is people with really blond, allmost white hair and babies.

Still, I do have problems locating splits because I can´t really see them without a magnifying glass. I bought a pair of 4+ glasses today to use outside my regular +2.50 glasses http://nohomers.net/images/smilies/oldman.gif. And I still find it easier to do S&D with a magnifying glass, pluss holding the hairs up against a contrasting surface. Sunlight just makes everything shine, so I can´t see what is worn ends and what is not. But I can see my hairs in regular modus though, I´m not blind.

So how do you know if your hair is medium or fine?

[James M]

http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=8954

Study that article. Do everything it says, it helped me understand my hair. This article also has links to a visual hair typing guide, that has a collection of photos to kind of give you an idea of what they are talking.

Also, don't be afraid to google what an "S curve is" or something, I hope this helps :)

[James M]

Still can't edit posts, it's getting annoying... :disgust:

A snip it, for you Idun...

F - Fine
Thin strands that sometimes are almost translucent when held up to the light. Shed strands can be hard to see even against a contrasting background. Similar to hair found on many people of Scandinavian descent.

You can also try rolling a strand between your thumb and index finger. Fine hair is difficult to feel or it feels like an ultra-fine strand of silk

[Idun]

Thank you James M! I have read this many times, and that is why I´m confused. :o The last part clearly describes how my hair feels between my fingers. But since my hair is dark I can see it against a white background. Still it looks translucent in the sunlight.

[Tiina]

I'm wondering about that too. The classification system just confused me. My hair is twotoned and the natural part is a colour that takes whatever colour the surroundings are so the contrasting background test made my natural hair bits invisible while the dyed parts were highly visible against all backgrounds. At the same time the feel test seemed to indicate that my hair is very fine since it is so soft you can barely feel it. However, it acts like coarse hair when handled so... :shrug:

[James M]

Idun, I personally wouldn't worry so much about hair color.

My hair is like a dirty blonde/light brown, so a weekend in the sun can really lighten the tips of my hair, and I've seen them become hard to find no matter the background, where I could still see the root.

It's funny, my hair will be like blonde/see through at the tip, then liiiight brown in the middle, and a brown near the root. But! The thickness, no matter the color is usally pretty consistent.

I've also had hair dressers tell me "your hair is so fine", but since I've done that classification system, I think my hair is actually more Medium, with traits of Fine.

[HairColoredHair]

Thank you James M! I have read this many times, and that is why I´m confused. :o The last part clearly describes how my hair feels between my fingers. But since my hair is dark I can see it against a white background. Still it looks translucent in the sunlight.

From this I'd say you definitely have fine hair, just dark colored fine hair is all.

And remember, a head of hair can often have a number of different types on it. My hair's 90% M, but there's F here and there and even a few C strands. :)

[James M]

At the same time the feel test seemed to indicate that my hair is very fine since it is so soft you can barely feel it.

I think this is the most important indicator when trying to determine hair thickness/coarseness. If it feels fine, it's probably fine.

If handling it feels coarse, that is normal... Rub a strand of hair the opposite direction, and you get a resistance, this is probably why, look at this hair up close; http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/345/hairuk.jpg

[Tiina]

I think this is the most important indicator when trying to determine hair thickness/coarseness. If it feels fine, it's probably fine.

If handling it feels coarse, that is normal... Rub a strand of hair the opposite direction, and you get a resistance, this is probably why, look at this hair up close; http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/345/hairuk.jpg

I disagree. It depends on the condition of the hair, too, not only the thickness. For example, a fine-haired person's hair can feel coarse and wiry if it is not properly moisturised and it can make that "hairnoise" as well. Just the same, it should be possible for coarse hair to be so well moisturised it no longer feels like a wire. My hair became entirely coated in sebum by WO and thus it is incredibly soft, whereas before it felt exactly like stereotypical coarse hair, through both herbal and 'normal' haircare.

[James M]

@ Tiina
Agreed, the condition of ones hair can make the hair feel different in many ways. But does that change the hair type?

[Tiina]

@ Tiina
Agreed, the condition of ones hair can make the hair feel different in many ways. But does that change the hair type?

No. Which brings us to the question, how do you determine the type if all you have to go on is the feel, which depends on the condition of the hair? Even if you clarify the hair before trying to classify the texture may not be what your natural texture is because of what you have done to it in the past. For example, hair towards the tips can feel coarser if it has been dyed or relaxed or heatdamaged while the virgin hair above feels finer. But this doesn't mean that the wiry strands below are thicker than the smooth parts above. Even humidity and temperature can change the feel of hair. It seems to me that the only method to define fineness/coarseness is to measure the hair under a microscope.

I don't want to say that everyone who has ever classified their hair by the guide have done it wrong but the method used is likely to give false results to some people.

[Anje]

Well, the coarse hair I've seen, I could see individual hairs from 50 feet away. It's really quite incredible -- hairs like thread!

I suspect that fine-haired folks are the ones who most often experience the sensation that they've got a hair on them, but aren't actually able to locate that hair. They often feel it repeatedly for hours, because they're unable to find the thing to get it off.

[Fiferstone]

^^this^^ exactly.

I've got hairs that are so fine they are almost impossible to see. They are much more visible now that I henna, and have gotten a teeny bit thicker thanks to the coating properties of henna.

[James M]

However, I think most can understand if their hair is dry, or damaged, they know their day to day habits/grooming techniques, and with a tad bit of research one could reach a fairly obvious conclusion on the condition of their hair, and how that condition effects appearance/feel.

I think it's most important not to over complicate the typing process. Look around at others, the difference from thick to fine will be obvious, and clearly there will be a middle ground.

[missfortune9335]

I got this tip from a hair magazine, it said to pull your hair into a ponytail and then measure the cimcurfrence. If it is roughly the size of a dime (17.91 mm) you have fine hair. I haven't verified this information other than having read it in the above metioned magazine but maybe that will help...

[MissManda]

I got this tip from a hair magazine, it said to pull your hair into a ponytail and then measure the cimcurfrence. If it is roughly the size of a dime (17.91 mm) you have fine hair. I haven't verified this information other than having read it in the above metioned magazine but maybe that will help...

I believe that the magazine you mentioned was using the term "fine" as a euphemism for "thin" because it is measuring the ponytail circumference, and thus the amount of hair rather than the thickness of the individual strands. It drives me absolutely bonkers when people do this because then the terms get lumped together. The same is true with the terms "thick" and "coarse." From what I have observed in a lot of non-LHC hair articles is that this has the tendency to neglect certain hair types and treats them like they don't exist (my hair type being one of them). The confusion also makes it kind of a pain in selecting hair products, tools, and toys.

I am also a bit confused as to whether my hair is Fine or Medium in texture. It has some M characteristics and it has some F characteristics, so in the end I decided to put it at M and leave it there until I decide otherwise.

[Hotrox]

Hello, I'm very new to all this - so apologies!

Can I ask why this is so important? Does it matter, what do I need to know?

Thanks

[littlenvy]

Well, the coarse hair I've seen, I could see individual hairs from 50 feet away. It's really quite incredible -- hairs like thread!

I suspect that fine-haired folks are the ones who most often experience the sensation that they've got a hair on them, but aren't actually able to locate that hair. They often feel it repeatedly for hours, because they're unable to find the thing to get it off.
LOL ... I have very fine hair and when it falls out its in one long strand. Usually I feel a "pull" and I can feel it SOMEWHERE on me but can't find it.
BUT ... its much worse for my hubby who often finds himself with my hair on him (often on his leg or in his pants *giggle*) He gets quite upset about that since it bugs him to no end.

[Sunsailing]

I agree with MissManda.
"Fine" refers to the individual strands of hair, not the overall thickness.

My hair is fine, but I have a lot of individual strands.

[Idun]

It seems to me that the only method to define fineness/coarseness is to measure the hair under a microscope.

Not very practical though in dayly life. Unless hairdressers start using microsopes. And you need someone to define exactly what is what.

[Idun]

I don´t get the not seeing your hair thing. Not finding it and not seeing it is not the same, now is it? I think we can all agree babies first hairs are fine. (Don´t know about chinese babies, because I have never actually met one, but I imagine even they have fine hair at birth.) Most babies in my family have blond hair and if you take one such hair and put it on a black surface, you can see it clearly! On light surfaces it is a problem, but you can still see it. Even at my age. :) My daughter has red hair and her hair was visible on dark and light surfaces. I know this, because I still have some samples of it. If it´s pitch dark, I imagine it can be a problem though. ;)

I have about one year of virgin hair, so I can see clearly that the previously died hair seems coarser than my new hair. So, I agree too that many factors can alter the perception of ones hair.

My family are half and half blond and dark haired. The brownies have fine hair and the blondies have coarser iii hair. Since I am the only female brownie it is a bit difficult to compare individuals on "my side" as the men go bald rather young. However my sister and my mother have hair strands that are at least 50-100% thicker than mine. Still I don´t know if their hairs are M or C, but for scandinavian hair theirs are quite coarse. My redheaded daughter has coarser hair than mine but not as coarse as the blondies.

[chipzahoy]

I'm having trouble with this, too. Are there any super-duper close up images of F v. M v. C hair?

I always thought that my hair was F, but one of my friends has a whole head of fine hair and it looks a lot different than mine. It's much wispier.

Guess I learn better from pictures, as the explanations only confuse me. The cotton thread test doesn't even seem right to me!

[Idun]

Maybe one could go to a salon and ask to get some cut off samples for photographing? On the other hand I doubt there will be any chinese hairs to find in my area. You sort of need "certified" C, M, and F hair to compare. Hmm.

[xoxophelia]

This isn't a very scientific method at all but based off of how you described your hair versus your mother and sister's hair as well as the fact that you are from Norway, I would imagine your hair is F/M or F due to your heritage.

Not the best method and I haven't seen your hair, but it seems likely.

[Idun]

I have since the responses in this thread (thank you all :flower:), adjusted my hairtype from F/M to F, but I`m still not sure. It is ofcourse not vitally important for anything at all, I´m starting to know what works for my hair and what doesn´t.:) It would have been nice with a clearer system though.

[DARKMARTIAN]

Id say....when someone comes up to you and says....

"Dang......your hair is FINE!"....:D

(I admit....im ignorant on all the hair stuff so I just gotta interject some humor..:o)

[Sammich]

Id say....when someone comes up to you and says....

"Dang......your hair is FINE!"....:D

(I admit....im ignorant on all the hair stuff so I just gotta interject some humor..:o)

ROFL! Thank you for the laugh dude. :) You're awesome!

Anywho, I can't tell whether my hair is fine or not either, I'm stuck between the two, and similar to Mandy, I've kept mine at F/M (well I changed it to M recently... unsure), or M! :p My dad has always told me I had fine hair and not Asian, coarse like my mother... but his hair is so soft and fluffy compared to mine, I have no idea what to think. :p

[Anje]

I asked a hairdresser once, just for some confirmation.

I think fineys are also the ones who (at least in my case) have hairdressers who comment that while their hair looks pretty normal in volume, there's a heck of a lot of it when you get your hands into it for styling or cutting. I've heard this, and I'm a low-end ii. I can't imagine the comments the F/iii folks hear.

[DARKMARTIAN]

ROFL! Thank you for the laugh dude. :) You're awesome!


http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt267/DARKMARTIAN/Smilies/smile-9.gif

No problemo vidya game girl....;)

Your pretty groovy yourself.....:)

[Idun]

I asked a hairdresser once, just for some confirmation.

I think fineys are also the ones who (at least in my case) have hairdressers who comment that while their hair looks pretty normal in volume, there's a heck of a lot of it when you get your hands into it for styling or cutting. I've heard this, and I'm a low-end ii. I can't imagine the comments the F/iii folks hear.

I used to get that a lot. And when I dyed my hair at the salon, they always miscalculated how much gunk they needed and they had to make a new batch in the middle of the session.

Darkmartian, I guess my hair isn´t that fine after all. I never had anyone say that to me. :knitfrog:

[Marjolein]

I suspect that fine-haired folks are the ones who most often experience the sensation that they've got a hair on them, but aren't actually able to locate that hair. They often feel it repeatedly for hours, because they're unable to find the thing to get it off.


I think fineys are also the ones who (at least in my case) have hairdressers who comment that while their hair looks pretty normal in volume, there's a heck of a lot of it when you get your hands into it for styling or cutting.

Yes! And yes!! That's a world of wisdom Anje! Both things have happened to me - often. My hair is much finer than that of most people I've encountered. Usually only children have hair that's similarly fine as mine. So, I'm pretty sure I'm a fine hair. Yet, I'm still able to see single strands lying around, especially now that my hair is darker due to henna. So that typing method has always seemed rubbish to me. Let's replace it with your 'it tickles but I can't locate it' method!!

[Idun]

According to this article from swiftcraftmonkey on the chemistry of fine hair (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/06/chemistry-of-your-hair-fine-hair.html) , fine hair has a diameter of less than 60 µm, where as average hair has 60 to 80µm, and thick hair more than 80 µm.

Also she says in fine hair, the cuticle might make up 40% of the hair strand with 60% being the cortex. And "Because fine hair contains more cuticle than other hair types, you have more cuticle scales that want to repel each other, creating more static and more fly-aways. You are also more prone to breakages, split ends, and damage through grooming, styling, and daily life. Sebum also spreads very quickly through fine hair,"

What she says about the medulla is different from what I read before. I thought only very coarse hair actually had medulla, but here it says only some with very fine hair lacks medulla.

ETA: µm is micrometre (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_unit_to_measure_diameter_of_hair)

[Idun]

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair#Construction_of_the_root_and_strand) " The diameter of human hair varies from 17 to 180 µm (0.00067 to 0.0071 in), depending on the color. Flaxen hair is the thinnest and black hair is the thickest."

[Idun]

How to measure the thickness of hair using a laser beam (http://www.fysikbasen.dk/English.php?page=Vis&id=87).

Not that easy to do in the home is it? :)

[TrudieCat]

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair#Construction_of_the_root_and_strand) " The diameter of human hair varies from 17 to 180 µm (0.00067 to 0.0071 in), depending on the color. Flaxen hair is the thinnest and black hair is the thickest."

I've heard this before - read it in magazines over the years and so on. I think my hair qualifies as flaxen, but it's definitely not fine. I have some really coarse, wirey hairs that are blonde. I got my coloring from my blonde mother with fine hair, but my actual hair strands are medium and coarse like my father's family's (he is of Italian descent and his family all has very dark brown, almost black, hair).

[Arianwen]

I agree with MissManda.
"Fine" refers to the individual strands of hair, not the overall thickness.

My hair is fine, but I have a lot of individual strands.

This. My hair is absurdly fine (IMO) but I have a lot of it...well maybe not as much as when I was younger, my wavy hair makes it look thicker than it is, too.

[Idun]

I've heard this before - read it in magazines over the years and so on. I think my hair qualifies as flaxen, but it's definitely not fine. I have some really coarse, wirey hairs that are blonde. I got my coloring from my blonde mother with fine hair, but my actual hair strands are medium and coarse like my father's family's (he is of Italian descent and his family all has very dark brown, almost black, hair).

In my family all the dark haired people have fine/finer hair and the blond ones have coarser hair. :hmm:

[Arianwen]

I had "white" blonde hair as a kid, now I have dark blonde hair...dunno if that messes with anyone's hair colour = thickness theories..

[growing2shine]

As a kid my hair was very blond with a golden tone (flaxen?) But now it's sort of medium blond with a lot of red in it, but it's still not red. My mom's hair is red and very coarse, my brother's hair is light blond and very coarse, and my dad's hair is very dark brown, almost black, and very coarse... But my hair is extremely fine compared to them.:shrug:

[Idun]

I think the hair colour and hairstrand diameter correlation is a very questionable theory!

I found an instrument that measures hair diameter, a digital micrometer (http://www.mediquipsurgical.com/micrometer.html). Rather expensive, but it could be a fun and useful type of gadget for a salon, don´t you think?

[teela1978]

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair#Construction_of_the_root_and_strand) " The diameter of human hair varies from 17 to 180 µm (0.00067 to 0.0071 in), depending on the color. Flaxen hair is the thinnest and black hair is the thickest."
I've read that wiki thing about color and thickness... and I think either its a load of BS, or they're meaning something different from what we think they mean... e.g. on my body my lighter colored hairs are thinner than my darker hairs. My arm hair is extremely blonde, fine, and hard to see unless you're in the right light. The hair on my head is darker and significantly thicker...

I'm not sure it follows though that from person to person that blondes have finer hair than brunettes... Based on the swiftcraftmonkey article Idun linked to, my hair would be fine. I've taken some microscope images with a measurable background and the hairs I sampled were all around 50um or less... but my hair feels thicker than my fathers, so clearly there are variations beyond that. I find the 60-80um range for 'normal hair' to be awfully narrow. I'm not certain human fingers could really even tell a 20um change in diameter...

I think how quickly your hair goes flat is one sign of fine/coarse hair though. Mine will be stuck to my head within a day or two of washing. Friends with coarser hair never seem to have that issue, its more likely to be sticking straight up... which in my hair makes some sense. Coarser/thicker hairs would have more structural integrity than finer/thinner hairs... I dunno.

[Idun]

I've read that wiki thing about color and thickness... and I think either its a load of BS, or they're meaning something different from what we think they mean... e.g. on my body my lighter colored hairs are thinner than my darker hairs. My arm hair is extremely blonde, fine, and hard to see unless you're in the right light. The hair on my head is darker and significantly thicker...

Not sure if that is what they mean. I have seen the same statement many times before. Also statements that the colour relates to the number of hairs growing out of your head.


I'm not sure it follows though that from person to person that blondes have finer hair than brunettes... Based on the swiftcraftmonkey article Idun linked to, my hair would be fine. I've taken some microscope images with a measurable background and the hairs I sampled were all around 50um or less... but my hair feels thicker than my fathers, so clearly there are variations beyond that. I find the 60-80um range for 'normal hair' to be awfully narrow. I'm not certain human fingers could really even tell a 20um change in diameter...

I saw another site where they stated that medium is 60-100um and coarse hair is 100um or more. Ofcourse I can´t find it again.


I think how quickly your hair goes flat is one sign of fine/coarse hair though. Mine will be stuck to my head within a day or two of washing. Friends with coarser hair never seem to have that issue, its more likely to be sticking straight up... which in my hair makes some sense. Coarser/thicker hairs would have more structural integrity than finer/thinner hairs... I dunno.

I recognize that. The hair appears to be schrinking a lot in volume during day 2. I have so much more hair in the morning than in the evening! :laugh:

Still, I don´t tangle much, - a trate that is often listed as typical of fine hair.

[teela1978]

Don´t know about chinese babies, because I have never actually met one, but I imagine even they have fine hair at birth.
Depends on the kid :) Our neighbors (not Chinese, Phillipino... but stil that area of the world to some degree) little boy, John, had very coarse hair as a toddler that stuck straight out in all directions like a halo. It was adorable. His sisters never did that. Not sure if their mom just worked harder to keep it down, or if her hair was less coarse... or if she was just less staticky...

One of my cousins has coarser hair than me. Our hair is pretty similar in color, but the texture really is different. There's a picture of the two of us around 2-3 years old. His is sticking straight out in all directions. Mine is plastered against my head. Mine always plasters against my head :rolleyes:

[MissManda]

I wish I could measure my hair in micrometers so I can figure out whether my hair is F or M. Some hairdressers have told me that my hair is F, but not all of them, so all I know is that my hair is thick (I have tons of it) and straight. I've had people who are definite F's either tell me that my hair is not F, that I have F hair but lots and lots of it, or that if my hair was truly fine, I would know it. I've had people take random strands of my hair and play with them and state to me how strong and hard to break my hairs are, even when my hair was permed and dyed.

And I still don't understand why people with the same strand thickness but with more curl pattern than me get labeled as M and me as F. I've seen a lot of articles that say all African hair is coarse, but yet I have friends of African descent that have fine, delicate hair that can be super-silky (the silkiest I have ever felt, in fact) if straightened. It bothers me that the media seems to depict any sort of straight hair, whether it be fine or coarse, thick or thin, as fine/thin. I feel so confused now.

I was born with a very thick head of dark brown hair (enough for 4 or 5 babies, maybe more) and it has always stayed thick and brown, unlike my sisters, who were both born very little blonde hair that got darker as they got older. I have some pictures of me as a small child and from what I can tell, my hair was quite fluffy. It didn't stick straight up or anything, but it didn't lie flat, either. Quite frankly, my sisters' hair looked flatter than mine, even though they had wavy hair and I know one of them is told she has M hair.

[christine1989]

I have heard of a few ways to check- one is if you can eaisly see a strand of your hair against a contrasting background (white paper for dark hair and black paper for blonde hair). The other is if you can feel it "roll" between your fingers. Fine hair you wont feel while medium and thick will be easy to feel.

[Arianwen]

Hmmm...I always figured mine was fine due to the wispies I get sometimes and the fact that if I look at it in front of strong light, it's like something a spider made...is it possible I am dead wrong and I actually have M hair?!

eta: I can feel it when I roll it between my fingers...

[MissManda]

I have heard of a few ways to check- one is if you can eaisly see a strand of your hair against a contrasting background (white paper for dark hair and black paper for blonde hair). The other is if you can feel it "roll" between your fingers. Fine hair you wont feel while medium and thick will be easy to feel.

If I go by this description, than my hair is M because I can definitely see my hair against a contrasting background, like when I am picking up shed hairs off of the walls (I honestly don't know how they get there, but they do sometimes) or the bathtub after I shower. And my individual hairs are very easy for me to feel.

This is why I'm so confused because some people have told me my hair is F-type, but Fia's system contradicts it. Maybe it's just because I have straight hair. :shrug:

[Arianwen]

I think I had hairdressers say my hair is fine, so I went with it, but now I am not so sure. Have I been labouring under the false impression I have fine hair all these years?!?!

[MissManda]

I get little whispy hairs at my nape and hairline, and those are definite F-type hair, but the hair on the rest of my head is considerably coarser. I know a lot of people who have baby-fine hair in that area, even people with coarse hair, so I don't think halo hairs matter in determining if your hair is fine or not. If I grab my baby hairs, it is hard for me to grab one at a time and I can barely feel them. They're also very stubborn and won't lie in place even with lots of AVG (I hate the summer heat here because it's making my hair go crazy).

[Arianwen]

Hmmm...this is deeply disturbing to me, for years I've been complaining about my fine hair...I'm definitely questioning it now, I can easily see/grab my hair strands...

[MissManda]

My boyfriend and I have this friend who is half Native American and he has and is constantly around C-type hair, so when he referred to DBF (who has M, maybe M/C hair) as having "finer" hair (not as an insult, of course), I couldn't help but giggle because everyone else seems to think DBF's hair is coarse and thick. My MIL thinks that my hair is thin because it is straight, yet DBF and I have ponytails that are very similar in size. XD My hairs are finer than DBF's hair but not considerably so and his hair can break just as easily as mine.

There are some LHCers who have actually measured the diameter of their individual hairs (I think it was Emichee) and I'd like to know where I could go to meausre my hair with a microscope because the one I have is not designed for that.

[MandyBeth]

My hair is fine. No debate. Baby fine. Can't feel it as a single strand. Big thing, with good care, my hair does not split. The ends break off, but no splits. As my hair improves, it feels like petting a cat.

[Arianwen]

I changed my type to F/M...for now...

[MissManda]

My hair is fine. No debate. Baby fine. Can't feel it as a single strand. Big thing, with good care, my hair does not split. The ends break off, but no splits. As my hair improves, it feels like petting a cat.

I used to know someone who used to call fine hair "cat hair" and I think the description is perfect. :)

[MandyBeth]

Did the home laser test, the info can be put in on the site. It is VERY accurate actually. My hair at it's thickest sits at 53 um. Good hair is 39 - 42 um. I'm mid color. The f with iii+ hair, go get a cut, they will use thinning shears.

[Idun]

Depends on the kid :) Our neighbors (not Chinese, Phillipino... but stil that area of the world to some degree) little boy, John, had very coarse hair as a toddler that stuck straight out in all directions like a halo. It was adorable. His sisters never did that. Not sure if their mom just worked harder to keep it down, or if her hair was less coarse... or if she was just less staticky...

Really? I did not know that babies could actually have coarse hair! I imagined that coarse looking baby hair would still be finer than medium adult hair?

[Idun]

My hair is fine. No debate. Baby fine. Can't feel it as a single strand. Big thing, with good care, my hair does not split. The ends break off, but no splits. As my hair improves, it feels like petting a cat.

OK, I hear you. I can feel my strands! Even the thinnest ones. I´m changing my type back to F/M. (Are you sure your fingertips´ tactile sensitivity is optimal? ;)) I´m going to do this test on baby hair to check if I can feel it or not. :laugh:


Did the home laser test, the info can be put in on the site. It is VERY accurate actually. My hair at it's thickest sits at 53 um. Good hair is 39 - 42 um. I'm mid color. The f with iii+ hair, go get a cut, they will use thinning shears.

I´m lost. How did you do the test? Which site?

[Idun]

I used to know someone who used to call fine hair "cat hair" and I think the description is perfect. :)

My hair is not as soft as cat hair. Although it is a lot softer now that I don´t use cones. So if cat hair consistency is a criterium, I don´t have fine hair.

[anniemae]

Idun,

I'm in the same boat as you are. I can never figure mine out either. :confused:

[MandyBeth]

The laser test is linked in this thread, but not sure where. My fingertips I can't feel 3 strands, but DF who has very sensitive touch can't feel 1. Cat hair isn't standard unless you have freakishly fine hair.

[Arianwen]

Man, this is the Great Fine Hair Controversy of 2010...literally for almost my entire life I thought I had fine hair! I bemoaned it many a-time with my mother etc. OMG!!! It's like finding out I'm actually left-handed or something. :P

[Arianwen]

The laser test is linked in this thread, but not sure where. My fingertips I can't feel 3 strands, but DF who has very sensitive touch can't feel 1. Cat hair isn't standard unless you have freakishly fine hair.

If you have hair as fine as a cat's, you must be a Furry. :eyebrows:

[MandyBeth]

Ew no. That's all I can say without blowing the PG 13 rating out of the water. It'd be like Mythbusters cleaning a cement truck once and for all.

[Arianwen]

Wait, they tried to clean out a cement truck?

[Idun]

The laser test is linked in this thread, but not sure where. My fingertips I can't feel 3 strands, but DF who has very sensitive touch can't feel 1. Cat hair isn't standard unless you have freakishly fine hair.

Ok, since my hair is not as soft as cats hair I might still have fineish hair but not freakishly fine?

Was it this one?


How to measure the thickness of hair using a laser beam (http://www.fysikbasen.dk/English.php?page=Vis&id=87).

Not that easy to do in the home is it? :)

[Idun]

Ok, now I see. You can submit your numbers on this page (http://www.fysikbasen.dk/English.php?page=HairMeasure). Sadly I don´t have a laser pointer. Are those expensive and where can you get one?

[cmnt831]

I got curious enough to try the laser home thing. :D By myself.... It's doable, you just need a little creativity to do it. So, what does the result mean anyway? It says, "Normally, hair thicknesses are somewhere between 0.08 and 0.12 mm". Mine seems to be under girth at 0.0542 mm. Are they talking about medium range of hair with those measurements? So that anything under would be fine and anything over would be considered thick or course?

I just measured some hair that dislodged from my head when I fingercombed and it was frustratingly difficult to get the hair oriented on the laser light because I couldn't feel it. Normally, I would say that I can feel my strands, but when trying to manipulate it for a reason, I couldn't feel it. I also am well aware that I have some course wiry hairs along with the finer ones growing out of my head.

I wish they had explained in a little more detail on that site what the measurements mean.

[cmnt831]

Ok, now I see. You can submit your numbers on this page (http://www.fysikbasen.dk/English.php?page=HairMeasure). Sadly I don´t have a laser pointer. Are those expensive and where can you get one?

We got one at the pet store. Apparently, cats like to chase the light. It was $3, I think.

[Idun]

I got curious enough to try the laser home thing. :D By myself.... It's doable, you just need a little creativity to do it. So, what does the result mean anyway? It says, "Normally, hair thicknesses are somewhere between 0.08 and 0.12 mm". Mine seems to be under girth at 0.0542 mm. Are they talking about medium range of hair with those measurements? So that anything under would be fine and anything over would be considered thick or course?

According to swiftcraftmonkey and others below 60 micrometer is fine hair, so you are clearly a fine-hair with your diameter of 54.

I have got to find a laser pointer now! :radar:

[cmnt831]

According to swiftcraftmonkey and others below 60 micrometer is fine hair, so you are clearly a fine-hair with your diameter of 54.

I have got to find a laser pointer now! :radar:

Thanks for clearing that up for me. :)

If you want directions on doing the project with no help from a second person, I can elaborate. :D

[Idun]

If you want directions on doing the project with no help from a second person, I can elaborate.

Yes, that would be great!

[charalito]

"Because fine hair contains more cuticle than other hair types, you have more cuticle scales that want to repel each other, creating more static and more fly-aways. You are also more prone to breakages, split ends, and damage through grooming, styling, and daily life. Sebum also spreads very quickly through fine hair,"


That pretty much describes my hair! Static and fly aways have become a way of life. I also loved the "cat hair" description, it feels exactly like that!

[cmnt831]

I collected my laser light, my mm measuring tape, a stiff measuring tape that can be pinched and held at whatever measurement you need and a hair from my head. With some difficulty, I got the hair positioned over the laser light and taped it down. I measured off 200 cm on the stiff measuring tape and pushed the button to hold it there. I laid the tape measure on the ground so that the end was against the wall and I took the laser light and placed it on the ground at the 200 cm mark. I got a heavy box and placed that on the laser light switch so that it would stay on. I adjusted the laser light so that it was at a convenient angle on the wall and took my mm measuring tape and followed the instructions on the site for measuring from the center dot to the black lines that project on the wall from the laser beaming through the hair.

I think the hardest part of the whole thing was trying to get the darned hair onto the laser light. :p

[Idun]

I collected my laser light, my mm measuring tape, a stiff measuring tape that can be pinched and held at whatever measurement you need and a hair from my head. With some difficulty, I got the hair positioned over the laser light and taped it down. I measured off 200 cm on the stiff measuring tape and pushed the button to hold it there. I laid the tape measure on the ground so that the end was against the wall and I took the laser light and placed it on the ground at the 200 cm mark. I got a heavy box and placed that on the laser light switch so that it would stay on. I adjusted the laser light so that it was at a convenient angle on the wall and took my mm measuring tape and followed the instructions on the site for measuring from the center dot to the black lines that project on the wall from the laser beaming through the hair.

I think the hardest part of the whole thing was trying to get the darned hair onto the laser light. :p

Thank you so much! I´m going to use your method.

Out of curiousity, did you also measure a silver hair? I feel that my silvers are coarser than my brown hairs. But I´m not sure if it is an optical illuson coupled with the fact that they are more wiry. I am now going to find out for certain.

I guess it is also important to measure the side of the hair that is closest to one´s scalp (the least damaged part of the hair), especially if you have chemically processed hair and coat it with all kinds of substances?

[cmnt831]

I haven't measured a silver yet, but I seem to have two types on my head, ultra fine and wiry. The majority seems to be the fine type, though. And the wiry hairs of any color seem to be placed mostly on the top of my head. So, I'm curious to see about the wiry ones, too. :)

ETA: I didn't think about which end of the hair I was measuring. I was just so frustrated trying to get the hair on the light at all. :p

[SpinDance]

In my family it was very easy to see differences in hair diameter. My mother has extremely fine hair. It was dark before goring gray, so the part of the rule description that says that it doesn't show against a contrasting background is probably only accurate for sort of middle-of-the-road shades. Very light or very dark will show up, in my opinion. This true of cat hair, too. I had a Persian cat who had hairs fine enough to float in the air, but against a contrasting background they would show up. However, they were exceptionally fine, fine enough that if one got into your eye you couldn't see it to get it out. :/

My hair is Medium. I have mostly medium hairs, with some very baby fine, and some as coarse as horse hair. That has been my rule of thumb, if it is similar to the mane of a horse, it's coarse for human, and thus normal for some. If it's like my Mom's, then it is extremely fine.

I think that as I've aged my hair has gotten somewhat thinner in diameter, on average, but I'm not positive. Much of the difference could be due to using proper products/techniques. When I was young Mom never bought conditioner, because, really, with hair like hers, which she keeps short, who would need it? I on the other hand need it desperately. Once we figured this out, when I was 11, things got much better for me and my hair! Of course I'm still learning and experimenting, and I like the texture and condition of my hair more now than ever before. Each hair is still the same diameter, but each feels and looks better than ever. Yay LHC!

Now I guess I need to go get me a cat toy...... ;)

[MandyBeth]

Ok my gray hair was 43 um. Henna was 41 um. Standard was between 32 um and 40 um. Yes I have several measurements. Yes I'm a geek. The cement truck was earlyish. With bomb experts and fire rescue on hand.

[Idun]

My first hair measured in at 85 um. Does that mean I am M? I´m going to measure at least ten hairs for comparison. This is fun!!

[cmnt831]

I measured my cat's hair for fun and it came out to 50. :D

I think I'll take some more measurements, too. And see if I can get a silver to fall out on its own. Maybe there's one in the drain.... {wanders off to look}

[rags]

I've no doubt about my hair being fine. It's like Mandybeth's - freakishly fine. I have extremely sensitive fingertips and can't feel single strands - sometimes not two. (By contrast, a thread you would sew with feels huge to me). My hair is as soft as a cats also. It also compacts up into nothing when I put it up, sigh. I quite often can't see single hairs against a contrasting background - but DH sometimes can. The catch is - he can't see it well enough to pick it up usually! Or else it will literally float away on the air. Yeah, fine hair.

The laser pointer still sounds fun though! I may have to get one and try this!

[cmnt831]

Oh, yes, rags, you should try! :D

I've just completed testing 3 more brown hairs and 2 silvers. That was all I could find in the bathroom.

So, my results including the one I tested earlier: 54, 46, 52, 48 all brown. 65 and 59 silver. Those two silvers were so obviously larger than the brown ones. But I have a lot of silvers that are really fine, they just didn't fall out and I'm not going to pluck them out. So, I'll have to wait on another day for those results.

Why is this kind of thing so fun? ;)

[Idun]

Ok. I have now tested 10 brown hairs. They were all measured near the root. I got 85, 70, 67, 70, 85, 73, 75, 65, 58, 70. That made an average of 72. I can´t find any greys now because it is too dark.

So apparently I´m not F or F/M but....M? Wow, that´s surprizing! According to swiftcraftmonkey average hairs are 60-80um, and coarse hairs are more than 80um.

On the other hand at what region do we put F/M?

[MissManda]

I think DBF has a laser pointer somewhere. He's so going to think I'm nuts when I tell him I want to measure the thickness of my hairs, lol. I think I'll measure a few of his, while I'm at it so I can compare. :D

[cmnt831]

I think DBF has a laser pointer somewhere. He's so going to think I'm nuts when I tell him I want to measure the thickness of my hairs, lol. I think I'll measure a few of his, while I'm at it so I can compare. :D

My dh laughed at first, but now he's asked me to measure his when he gets home later. :D

[Idun]

By the way cmnt831, I found it was much easier to tape down the nob on the laser pointer, rather than using a heavy box.

[cmnt831]

My one has this squishy bulb thing attached to a cord that you have to squeeze to get the light to work, so the box is best for that kind. I have the other kind of light that the tape would work well on, just the batteries are dead in that one, so....

Congratulations on being a medium hair. :) I think I'm going to measure some more later when I find more loose hairs. And I'll measure dh's, too. His hair looks much finer than mine, so we'll see.

[Idun]

According to Panthene (http://www.pantene.com/en-us/hair-science/Pages/fine-hair-structure.aspx) the average thickness of fine hair is 70um, while they say medium to thick hair has an average of 90um

This page says (http://www.hair-styles-secrets-revealed.com/hair%20type.htm):
Fine: 50um
Medium 60-90um
Coarse more than 90

This page (http://www.forhair.com/donor_harvesting_06.htm) operates with "a system" closer to LHC terms
Very Fine: less than 60um
Fine: 60-65um
Medium/Fine: 65-70um
Medium: 70-75um
Medium/Coarse: 75-80
Coarse: more than 80

[MissManda]

According to Panthene (http://www.pantene.com/en-us/hair-science/Pages/fine-hair-structure.aspx) the average thickness of fine hair is 70um, while they say medium to thick hair has an average of 90um

This page says (http://www.hair-styles-secrets-revealed.com/hair%20type.htm):
Fine: 50um
Medium 60-90um
Coarse more than 90

This page (http://www.forhair.com/donor_harvesting_06.htm) operates with "a system" closer to LHC terms
Very Fine: less than 60um
Fine: 60-65um
Medium/Fine: 65-70um
Medium: 70-75um
Medium/Coarse: 75-80
Coarse: more than 80

Wow, that last page is very detailed! Thank you so much for posting this!

It turns out DBF doesn't have a laser pointer, but I suppose I could get one for cheap or I could wait until I visit my parents-in-law because I know they have a laser pointer that I could use.

[Idun]

Here´s a discussion on the topic from the old boards (http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/archive/index.php/t-26479.html).

One post from Zequana says: "According to "The hair bible" by Philip Kingsley: "Fine hair can be 40-70 microns in diameter, while coarse hair can be 140 microns""

[cmnt831]

Interesting. At least in that old thread they didn't feel the need to tell fine haired people to get layers or short hair. :p

So, there seems to be somewhat of a consensus of what F, M and C measure, but still not settled on exact measurements for each. :hmm:

[cmnt831]

I found some more hairs hidden in the bathroom. :D

So, my measurements for brown hair are: 54, 46, 52, 48, 56, 52, 56, 54. I measured what I considered to be one of my coarse hairs. It was 65. The "coarse" hairs are not indicative of the rest of my hair, since they seem to be found only on top of my head and there aren't very many of them. I could probably count them easily if I was bored.

Anyway, silvers measured as follows: 65, 59, 65, 65, 52, 56. So far, not as fine as I thought, but again, the ones I would consider "coarse" are only 65.

When I joined LHC I would have guessed myself to have medium to coarse hair. Then I read Fia's hairtyping guide and guessed fine/medium. After getting my hair properly moisturized and taken care of, I realized that I might possibly fall into the fine range. Now, I'm pretty certain, from these tests, that I do indeed have fine hair.

So, where does that leave me? I don't know, I guess I just keep caring for my hair the way I've learned here. :shrug: :)

[Idun]

I had to do the measurements again because when I looked this morning I had done it wrong with the distance from the wall to the hair. :doh:After a more accurate run I got these results:

Measured at root end: 70, 73, 59, 81, 72, 52, 85, 67, 67, 67 = average: 0,06982
Same hairs measure near the tips: 65, 65, 46, 70, 70, 40, 65, 67, 67, 67 = average: 0, 06265

So which end of the hair you measure does in fact matter. The root end of my hairs have an average of 70, while the tip end was 63. I guess that shows the extent of the proteinloss! Apparently my hairs vary a lot in thickness from F to C, but the majority of my hairs are in the 70 area. Now it depends how you define it what hairtype category I shall put myself in.

I also noticed that the roots of every hair looked very light or grey. Perhaps they are all brown hairs falling out to be replaced by greys? :confused:

Upon examination of the slimmest hair (52/40) , I found that I could easily see it against a white paper, but I could just barely feel it when rolled between my fingers.

[Idun]

When I joined LHC I would have guessed myself to have medium to coarse hair. Then I read Fia's hairtyping guide and guessed fine/medium. After getting my hair properly moisturized and taken care of, I realized that I might possibly fall into the fine range. Now, I'm pretty certain, from these tests, that I do indeed have fine hair.

So, where does that leave me? I don't know, I guess I just keep caring for my hair the way I've learned here. :shrug: :)

In my case it means that I must change my own perception of the hair as I can probably call it medium now (?), which is kind of shocking to me! :) All my life people have told me I have fine hair.

Secondly I can stop looking at receipes for fine hair, and go straight to "normal". Conditioners for fine hair are often very light in consistency and I often not moisturizing enough for me. Medium hair has a different anatomy than fine hair apparently, so I will have to look into that and see if I can improve my routines.

[cmnt831]

In my case it means that I must change my own perception of the hair as I can probably call it medium now (?), which is kind of shocking to me! :) All my life people have told me I have fine hair.

Secondly I can stop looking at receipes for fine hair, and go straight to "normal". Conditioners for fine hair are often very light in consistency and I often not moisturizing enough for me. Medium hair has a different anatomy than fine hair apparently, so I will have to look into that and see if I can improve my routines.

Now that's interesting. Do you have any links on info about that?

I had a weird idea about hair, I guess. I thought curly/wavy hair like mine was medium or coarse and that straight hair was fine. I thought my mom's hair (which is medium/coarse) was that texture because of all the hair spray she uses. Anyway, this has been way too fascinating for me and I'm going to see if I can do more measurements today. Plus, dh collected some of his hair for me this morning, so I'll be measuring that soon. :D

[Idun]

Now that's interesting. Do you have any links on info about that?

I´m linking again to swiftcraftmonkey (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/06/chemistry-of-your-hair-fine-hair.html) :) I´m sure there are more to be found.

[cmnt831]

Thanks, Idun! I think I remember now that there was some info on the Pantene link you gave, too. :)

Should I be embarrassed to say I'm going to do more testing in just a few minutes, and that the prospect of what I'll find is kind of exciting? ;)

[UP Lisa]

I think if you have really fine hair, you know it. Mine is so soft, so flyaway, so tangly, and so fragile, that there is no quiestion it is baby-fine.

[MandyBeth]

The fun with lasers. Tho now we can find out what your hair is. With henna I can find hairs, but natural, no way. Tho it was shorter then also.

[cmnt831]

Yes, the fun with lasers. :D I'm the type of person that loves to find out what things are about, so measuring hair is right up my alley. I also investigate weird noises in my house at night and stop to examine vegetation, etc. that is unfamiliar. So, pinning down hair type instead of assuming it's thus or such - well, that's kind of the cherry on top. :p

[Idun]

Thanks, Idun! I think I remember now that there was some info on the Pantene link you gave, too. :)

Should I be embarrassed to say I'm going to do more testing in just a few minutes, and that the prospect of what I'll find is kind of exciting? ;)

Looking forward to reading about it! :cheer:

I am so going to measure the hairs of every family member! Just not quite sure how to ask for samples yet! :laugh:

[cmnt831]

I've been thinking about how I can obtain samples from my parents and sisters, as well. Dh and I will be having a birthday party very soon. I'm sure I could collect samples then.... :hmm: :D

Here are the results of Dh's hair samples. He only gave me 5 and they were terribly hard to see, but his hair is blond and light brown so that could be why. 54, 54, 56, 52, 54. I thought they would be way finer than that, since they look so compared to mine, but it may be the color is what's throwing me off.

I'm going to measure some more of mine when I get finished with house chores. :D

[Idun]

I will start by sneaking around my relatives houses and try to steal hair from brushes. :D It is kind of weird to ask for hairs, isn´t it? :o

I´ve been thinking, will it not be more difficult to measure the thickness of curly hair seeing as the shape of the strands are more flat?

[growingmyhair]

hmm, so now I think I have not F/M ii hair but F i (didn't realize the i thing was about ponytail circumference, I thought it's about the way one's hair looks like when it's dry - cause mine got LOTS of volume although it's quite thin)

[cmnt831]

I will start by sneaking around my relatives houses and try to steal hair from brushes. :D It is kind of weird to ask for hairs, isn´t it? :o

I´ve been thinking, will it not be more difficult to measure the thickness of curly hair seeing as the shape of the strands are more flat?

Uh, yeah, it's weird to ask, but luckily my family has come to expect strange questions from me by this point. :p

Dh and I both have curl to our hair, but it's really easy to pull it straight, so I don't think that counts. I don't know anyone with truly curly hair to test.

Oh, I've been meaning to ask, which order have you been measuring? 1, 2, or 3? I've been doing 1 and hadn't thought to try the others to compare.

ETA: I've just realized I've been reading my mm tape incorrectly!! I'm going to have to measure everything again. :justy: Oh, well, more fun for me, I guess. :)

[cmnt831]

hmm, so now I think I have not F/M ii hair but F i (didn't realize the i thing was about ponytail circumference, I thought it's about the way one's hair looks like when it's dry - cause mine got LOTS of volume although it's quite thin)

Mine does this, too. I thought I had really thick hair until I squished it down to measure the circumference. I think having waves, plus fine flyaway hair gives the illusion of more volume.

[Anje]

I may have to dig out the laser pointer and measure mine as part of my procrastination on the paper I'm writing. (I'm literarily constipated right now...) I suspect that henna has mine plumped into the F/M category -- mine's as fine as most hair I see, but it varies a lot more than some of the flaxen-haired baby-fine folks out there.

[cmnt831]

Yeah, now I'm confused. :ponder: I was definitely measuring wrongly, but I'm still coming up with the same numbers? 56, 46, 54, 56 so far on brown and 65 on my white hair.

I also discovered that measuring order 1 and order 2 has a bit of a discrepancy in the thousandths place, which sometimes affects the hundredths place. I don't know if it's me, my light, my wall, the test itself, or what.

Am I just being nit-picky? :p Probably. I'll measure more later. Thank goodness this is just hair and not medicine....

[Idun]

I have been measuring order 1 because for some reason I can´t get a clear order 2 and I don´t get an order 3 at all! I forgot to ask about that! My laser pointer has wavelenght 650-660 nm. Or am I doing something wrong? :confused: I place the hair at 2,5 m from the wall.

[cmnt831]

I have been measuring order 1 because for some reason I can´t get a clear order 2 and I don´t get an order 3 at all! I forgot to ask about that! My laser pointer has wavelenght 650-660 nm. Or am I doing something wrong? :confused: I place the hair at 2,5 m from the wall.

That's what my wavelength seems to be, too. I'm at 2 M from the wall, so maybe that's why I get a marginally more clear order 2. Order 3 is pretty dim for me.

I started at 1 M yesterday, but then saw the instructions on the site called for 2 M or more. There was a small difference in measurements from the different distances.

Do you think this is an accurate test? Maybe I should just say I have hair-sized hair and leave it at that. :p

[Idun]

I think there is clearly room for error in this test, so you got to take the results as approximates. I especially find it hard to decide exactly where the order starts as the red beam tapers into nothing with some hairs. Also a millimeter seems to be too large a unit. And I imagine the way you have tightened the hair in front of the laser light might matter. It´s impossible to get exactly the same for each hair.

ETA: That´s why it´s a good idéa to measure many hairs...

[cmnt831]

Heh, I just measured my husband's hair that is so fine it's almost invisible. It scored an 65. I'm going to see if I can find batteries to see if that's the problem.

Yes, there are many factors that could skew the results. :rolleyes: I try to pull the hair taut and make sure it's exactly over the center of the light.

[MandyBeth]

Hehe. Got a loose hair from DF. Now, his locs may mess with this as I got one hair. However that one is 99 um. But his isn't easy to see, I think it's a color not a thickness thing.

[little_cherry]

Hold a single strand between your thumb and finger and roll the hair between them. If you cannot feel it, then you have fine strands. If it feels like cotton, you have medium and if you hear the hair being rubbed between your fingers and it just feels thick like a couple of strands of cotton, you have coarse hair. :)

[MandyBeth]

That's no fun! Break out the laser, have a party. Sides, knew I had fine hair, now I have scientific proof.

[xoxophelia]

Hold a single strand between your thumb and finger and roll the hair between them. If you cannot feel it, then you have fine strands. If it feels like cotton, you have medium and if you hear the hair being rubbed between your fingers and it just feels thick like a couple of strands of cotton, you have coarse hair. :)


Argh this is so confusing. I used to label myself M/C and then I started to think my hair could be F.... but my hair feels like little wires inbetween my fingers! -_-.......

Soo confuddled...

[Idun]

Hehe. Got a loose hair from DF. Now, his locs may mess with this as I got one hair. However that one is 99 um. But his isn't easy to see, I think it's a color not a thickness thing.

Yes I agree. So far it seems to me that the "not seeing the hair against a contrasting background" is a confusing and incorrect criterium for fine hair.


Hold a single strand between your thumb and finger and roll the hair between them. If you cannot feel it, then you have fine strands. If it feels like cotton, you have medium and if you hear the hair being rubbed between your fingers and it just feels thick like a couple of strands of cotton, you have coarse hair. :)

Yes, thank you for reminding us! :) This is the official LHC characterization. So far from what I have seen, I believe the no feel rule applies only to very fine hair in the 50um range and lower. ( I am definitely going to test light coloured baby hairs for comparison, when I can get hold of them.) Surely the tactile sensatory abilities of a person and the texture of the hair should impact the result of such a feel test too.

Also I have tested hairs from my own scalp in the over 80 um range and it does not feel like cotton thread at all when rubbed between my fingers.

[Idun]

I may have to dig out the laser pointer and measure mine as part of my procrastination on the paper I'm writing. (I'm literarily constipated right now...) I suspect that henna has mine plumped into the F/M category -- mine's as fine as most hair I see, but it varies a lot more than some of the flaxen-haired baby-fine folks out there.

Yeah, I´m well into a procrastination phase as well. :D This is quite a fun way of doing it. Very distracting.

I seem to have a great variation of hairs on my head aswell.

[Idun]

I think if you have really fine hair, you know it. Mine is so soft, so flyaway, so tangly, and so fragile, that there is no quiestion it is baby-fine.

You are probably right about that.:) The doubts and confusions arise when you have fine hair to fine medium hair.

[cmnt831]

I'm going to try - not a different approach - but to add some steps that maybe will help me with measuring accuracy. I'll post the results later. I've collected many hairs from my own head, since I washed it yesterday, and dh is supposed to have some more for me this morning. If I'm lucky, I might be able to get some from my 2 year old niece and my mom. ;)

I'm kind of mired in this now, I think. :p Yeah, I'm doing this for the science of it all because I know sight and touch can be very deceiving....

[MandyBeth]

DF informed me that cat hair averages out at 30 um. The hair on the cat seems to run the same, but each cat is different. That's the top coat, not under.

[cmnt831]

In order to make sure I was getting correct results, I decided to laser measure the width of a wire of known size as suggested on the website. I only had 28 gauge available, so that's what I used. I got consistent results at 2 M on all three orders. So, now I figure I know how to measure a hair of unknown size. I got through 6 hairs before the batteries died. :(

The results were interesting. 46, 54, 54, 72, 76, 86. The 86 was one of my wiry hairs that had come out when I was combing last night. The 46 and 54 also came out last night. I placed them on a white surface before I had measured them and the 86 width one stood out plainly. The 54 was visible, if you knew where to look and the 46 was almost invisible even though it is a brown hair. The other 54, 72 and 76 had come out when I washed my hair yesterday. That seems like a big hair width discrepancy to me. Maybe I literally have an equal mix of fine and medium hair on the same head with a few coarse ones thrown in for good measure. :)

I'll see if I can get some batteries soon and continue the experiment with my saved hair and dh's, too. I'm a bit miffed that the batteries gave out before I could measure his hair.

[Idun]

MandyBeth, interesting to hear how fine a cat´s hair is! :)

Cmnt831, I don´t have a wire of known size. :( Hm, I´ll ask my father.

Do you measure at 2 meters?

I also had results from 52 to 85. I guess I will have to do 10 new hairs after I have tried the wire. Why don´t I get 3 orders?

[cmnt831]

Yes, 2 meters. When my batteries were getting low, I started losing orders rapidly. :) But maybe you have a slightly weaker light, or something?

I found that to get a consistent reading with the wire, I needed to measure to the end of the black band, just where the new order starts. I couldn't get a good reading when I measured at the beginning of the black band where the first red band ends. Plus, I had been 1mm off on my first trials the other day. :doh:

[cmnt831]

I'm back with some results. The batteries must have reinvigorated, because the light started working again. :cheese:

DH - blond/light brown: 81, 74, 62, 56, 62, 72, 65, 72, 77, 59

Me - dark brown (no whites today): 86, 72, 76, 68, 65, 59, 56, 54, 54, 52, 50, 46, 42 (those included the results I posted earlier today).

Dh looks well into the medium range over all. I seem to have more that fall into the fine range with some well into the medium range 65/35 percent, maybe? Wait, that was my left brain/right brain ratio. :p

I thought surely dh would have super fine hair, but maybe it's just the color that makes it seem super fine? And I know I have two different textures on my head, the underlayer is fine, silky and abundant and lighter brown, the upper layer is definitely not as fine, darker brown (with silver, of course) and seems more sparse. Anyway, we don't typically examine other people's hair for comparison, but I'll be at church tomorrow and they think I'm weird there already, so maybe someone will oblige. :p

[Idun]

Yes, 2 meters. When my batteries were getting low, I started losing orders rapidly. :) But maybe you have a slightly weaker light, or something?

My laser pointer has "Max. power: <5 nm (class IIIA Laser product)". Do I need to get another one?


I found that to get a consistent reading with the wire, I needed to measure to the end of the black band, just where the new order starts. I couldn't get a good reading when I measured at the beginning of the black band where the first red band ends. Plus, I had been 1mm off on my first trials the other day. :doh:

Now you´re really confusing me! I thought you had to measure to the beginning of the first dark band or the beginning of the second band and so on?

[cmnt831]

Yes, I was confused, too. Look at the link I posted to your blog. That site seems to measure to the middle of the red band. I'm going to test it later today with the wire and see what results I get. A 28 gauge wire is supposed to measure .321mm. Measuring to the end of the black band gave me a consistent, but slightly off, reading of .325mm. I'll post my results, of course. :)

[cmnt831]

I'm sorry, Idun. I didn't address your first question. Mine is the same power as yours. I've been testing in a rather dimly lit room. I noticed that when the sun started coming in the window from the west, I could only get 2 orders and the second one was pretty faint. I just closed the window shade and continued - the third order came back after that. :)

ETA: I just tested the 28 gauge wire again. I get the most consistent results (.325mm) measuring to the end of the black space. If I measure to the beginning of the black space, right where the red line ends, my measurement is much to big for what the known value of the wire should be (.321mm).

Were you able to get a wire of known value from your father to test?

On another note, I had good luck getting my parents and sister to agree to give me some hairs to measure. :D At this point, I'm guessing that my mom has coarse hair (based on her letting me touch it, which she never allows), my dad has mostly fine and my sister's will be very similar to mine.

[Idun]

I didn´t manage to get hold of my father today. Tomorrow I hope.

I get the orders when I turn down the lights! :hifive: Why I didn´t do that before I don´t know. :rolleyes:

If I measure to the beginning of the second red band, and put this in the form as order 1, my first hair is 52 um at the root end. I really need that wire now to get the correct readings! I´m becoming slightly obsessed by this I feel! :bigeyes:

[cmnt831]

Lol! Yes, I'm a bit obsessed by this, too. It does help that people already think I'm a bit strange, so asking to measure their hair seems almost like a normal thing for me to do. :D

I think if you could get a wire to measure, it would help the accuracy of your measurements quite a bit. Or at least it would go some way to reassure you that you are getting more accurate measurements.

Oh, just turn the lights back up once you do the mm measurements.... I managed to skip that step before and wondered why I was getting a headache. :rolleyes:

[Idun]

I can see how that would cause a headache! :laugh: It is difficult enough to attach a hair to the laser in full daylight!

That link you put in my blog (Here (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:QZha5T_f1HAJ:www.ccmr.cornell.edu/education/lendinglibrary/getdocument.php%3Fid%3D82+how+to+measure+hair+thic kness&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi_Nw5nRg0dL_QJ8MBROptkLInOTOkZUuffkY0q VEjv6vqylfOfXTVnRb9CzckIPpwJOie23ee8edmO_LRH4lq3cu njsm9XnpW2BEwm9UKZNHPJMyYsLF0rkkUTFB9s3dJU9kx5&sig=AHIEtbSIplYpIu--s9EwiYslcQLqhlf7AA)) didn´t clarify matters for me. How on earth would you know the middle of each red band???

[cmnt831]

Yeah, after testing the wire again using that method, it didn't help any. But I wanted to try as many possibilities to get the best reading. :shrug:

Oh, I think I'm getting better at feeling the difference between f, m and c hairs now that I've been practicing with all these measurements. I think my baby nephew is going to have coarse hair. Even his baby hair feels much like my mom's coarse hair, while his sister's hair has always felt silky like mine. But I still want exact measurements. :p

[Idun]

I just thought of a better way to measure (If I´m just beeing slow again, forgive me!) I just put a paper and draw dots with a pencil where the orders begin and end. Easier to measure the dots afterwards than crawling on the floor with the ruler.

[cmnt831]

Lol! I just figured that out yesterday. :o I should have mentioned it sooner, but I was so taken up with getting that wire tested that I forgot.

Yeah, I was crawling, too....

[Idun]

I just went out of my way to get some wire that was 0.5 mm, only to discover I already have some that is 0.3 mm. I just didn´t think to look in that shelf before. Finally I´m going to get this right!

[cmnt831]

Yay! Let me know what results you get. :)

[Idun]

I find it extremely difficult to measure the 0.3 mm wire because the orders are so short! However there is no doubt that the beginning of red band 2 = order 1 and beginning of red band 3 = order 2. I get measurements 0.28 something. I guess I woud have to put the wire longer away than 2 m to get it totally accurate? Anyway, I come to the same conclusion as you did smnt831. Thanks for working this out!

I´m going to set up the measuring in a darker room now.

[cmnt831]

Yeah, it might help to move it farther back. Those spaces are pretty tiny when you use a wire. Being in a darker room helps, too.

Thanks for trying it out and confirming. :) I may try moving back to 2.5 meters next time I test and see what happens.

[Idun]

I&#180;m having doubts. I set up a 3 meters distance. I get 0,325 when I measure end of band 2, and 0,2786 on beginning of band 3. This indicates I should be using the middle of black band 2. Don&#180;t you think? It is still very diffucult to see because the red bands get very non-uniform (dots) at 3 m distance!

ETA: Yes, when I measure the middle of black band 2 I get exactly 0,3!

[cmnt831]

I assume you're still using the .3mm wire, right? I kept coming up with .325mm at the end of the black band on my wire that is .321mm measuring from 2 meters. I was also curious to see if that changed at 2.5 meters.

I can double check after awhile. Just need to get my chores started first. :)

ETA: OK, I'm going to check that out, too!

[teela1978]

I´m having doubts. I set up a 3 meters distance. I get 0,325 when I measure end of band 2, and 0,2786 on beginning of band 3. This indicates I should be using the middle of black band 2. Don´t you think? It is still very diffucult to see because the red bands get very non-uniform (dots) at 3 m distance!

ETA: Yes, when I measure the middle of black band 2 I get exactly 0,3!
I think you definitely want to measure in the middle of the black band. You're aiming for the largest dip in the band. This page (http://www.fysikbasen.dk/English.php?page=HairMeasure) linked to earlier has a good diagram of what you're measuring, the minimum point in the black band is the spot you're looking for. I've seen this experiment mentioned before and always wanted to do it but never think of it when I have access to a laser pointer! I might have to see about getting one :)

[Idun]

Thank you for your input teela1878! Please join in the fun! :thumbsup:

5 hairs from my head measured at 3 places using the middle of the first black band and 3 m distance.

Root - middle - tip
62 - 56 - 42
65 - ? (lost the hair) - 59
51 - 50 - 48
57 - 55 - 51
75 - 69 - 63

All of these hairs could easily be seen against a white paper, and I could feel them all when rolled between my fingertips.

I just burned the dinner leftovers because of this! :shake:

[cmnt831]

Yes, Teela1978, you should join us! Thanks for the input, too. :)

Idun, do you find it easier to read at 3 meters? I was getting some weird distortion off the bands at 2.5 meters using the wire. I think I'll try it in another room that has more space....

The potatoes that I was cooking for breakfast got a bit crispy on one side due to testing distraction. :rolleyes:

[Idun]

:laugh: Who needs food anyway!

I think it is easier at 3 meters. The most difficult part now is plotting down the points on the paper in an almost dark room. :)

[cmnt831]

:lol: Food is a distraction to testing.

I think I just figured out another issue I was having. I was having trouble finding the center of the - uh - center. So, maybe this should have been obvious, but I'm now marking off the ends of the center bar and measuring that to find the "more exact" center to measure from. I re-measured my thickest hair from the other day, with the new measuring technique (from the measured center to the middle of the dark bar) and I came up with .84mm at 2 meters. The other day with the more imprecise measuring I was doing it was .87mm. I've been finding the middle of the hair and measuring from there to keep it consistent.

I'll see if anything else changes now. Luckily, I kept all the hair I measured the other day in a little baggie. :cheese: I'll post my results later.

ETA: Oh joy, the hair is now measuring 77mm at 3 meters....

[Idun]

Yup, that is what I do too.

I have an old hair receiver that I bought off ebay. When it is full I transfer the hairs to a ziplock bag. Never really did it for a specific purpose, just collected the hairs for no reason. Finally it came in handy! :)

[Idun]

I wonder how many hairs should be tested to have a representative selection?

I´m going to do the middle of the strands too from now on. We have seen that there is a general taper, so the middle of each hair will give the best average I think.

[Anje]

Hold a single strand between your thumb and finger and roll the hair between them. If you cannot feel it, then you have fine strands. If it feels like cotton, you have medium and if you hear the hair being rubbed between your fingers and it just feels thick like a couple of strands of cotton, you have coarse hair. :)
I'm not sure if this works... I'm pretty sure mine's fine, though not super-fine. I can feel it if the hair rolls, though it certainly doesn't feel like a piece of thread. My hairs aren't perfectly round, though, and so they often won't spin between my fingers, and then I can't feel anything.

Next thing you know, we'll be having to measure the dimensions of hairs in different orientations.

[cmnt831]

Yup, that is what I do too.

I have an old hair receiver that I bought off ebay. When it is full I transfer the hairs to a ziplock bag. Never really did it for a specific purpose, just collected the hairs for no reason. Finally it came in handy! :)

Oh, thank goodness I'm not the only one with hair in baggies. :D This is precisely why I love this place so much!

See that's exactly what I was thinking when I started measuring from the middle. Hey, I wonder if that's why the baby hairs stick out so much sometimes, because they're thicker at the root end and as they grow they lose protein or whatever and get smaller and don't stick up anymore. :hmm:

[MandyBeth]

Heheh, I'll have to do full detailed testing this weekend. Tho' mine are screwy because I have hair (in a bag) from before I hennaed, but now my roots aren't hennaed, but the length is. But I can also test Great Pyr hair, guard and undercoat, and Golden hair and some Spaniel hair. Hrm, could get some from the llamas and goats, maybe horse also. Got my FSIL involved also and she'll get hair from her family.

[karli]

"How the hair feels when you roll it between your fingers.."

I've believed that my hair is F/M because I have no problem with feeling my coarser underlayer-strands. After reading this thread I asked my dad for his micrometer. When I measured my strands, the coarsest one I found was 0.50. The finest was 0.36. No problems with seeing them..

I'll change my stats to Fine, though.

[UP Lisa]

As far ss rubbing the hair through your fingers goes, some people have more sensitive fingers than others.

[MissManda]

I just had to resurrect this thread because I think I have a better idea of what fine hair is like this past weekend.

I remember my old hairstylist (I promise that this isn't gong to be ramble-y), would always tell me how fine her hair was would describe her natural hair texture as resembling "candy floss" or "cobwebs/spiderwebs." She would give me the whole, "Fine hair needs to be short, because blah, blah, blah..." when I'd try to discuss growing my hair very long like it used to be when I was a little girl because my hair was too "fragile" and would look stringy. I felt very discouraged about growing my hair for several years, but I would always be so incredibly confused by the way my hairstylist described fine hair. My hair is silky and shiny, yes, but in no way has it ever felt like candy floss or cobwebs, it just feels like the hair of my sister or dad, who according to my hairdresser, have M-textured hair.

So until this past weekend, I just thought that my fingers were overly-sensitive and that even though my hair didn't feel like candy floss or cobwebs to me, it might feel that way to someone else.

Well, I spent all of my weekend with two friends of mine, who happen to be twin sisters. They were both really amazed with the different kinds of braids and updos I can do. One sister asked me to braid her hair before she went to bed and the next day they asked me to do half-up French braids for them to wear to their bellydance performance. I was more than happy to, of course!

The twins both have naturally medium blonde hair (one twin has her hair dyed lighter, though) that is about 2a/2b with a similar ponytail circumference to mine. Very gorgeous, indeed. :D I felt so honored that they asked me to braid their hair for them.

The instant I got my hands into their hair, I knew it was of F texture. All of the little hairs were densely packed but still laid flat against the scalp. Individually, the strands were really difficult for me to feel... like cobwebs and were almost as fragile. Even though I am very gentle with hair, I can't begin to tell you how many times I apologized for accidentally breaking those little hairs. Overall, their hair felt so downy and wonderfully soft.

I later found a few shed strands of their hair on my sleeve. I picked up the hairs and held them up to the light and I could *barely* see them!

So I don't think my strands are F anymore. I recall FrannyG telling me that if my hair was truly fine, I'd know it. Now that I have encountered hair that I know is F-type, I understand when people talk about flyaways, candy floss, and cobwebs.

What I still don't understand is why so many people would categorize my hair as Fine when my strands are the same size as my dad and sister, who are both categorized as having M hair. I'm beginning to wonder if it is just because my hair is so straight or something. My hairs don't lie completely flat against my scalp and have some natural lift when washed properly. I've tried volumizing products on my hair before and the root lift they gave made my hair look really strange and unnatural (way too much lift). Maybe my individual strands have become somewhat more coarse as I have gotten older, I don't know. :shrug:

I'm still not sure if I am F/M or just M. I'm pretty sure I'm on the finer side of Medium, so I guess I'll classify myself under M as I have been doing recently.

I really feel like I have a better idea of what truly Fine hair is like, which makes me happy and less confused. :)

[Shany]

According to your hair description, I think you are M...maybe F/M. It's a kinda hard to say, but I'm sure you are not F. In my case, my hairstylist said that I have fine hair, but a lot of them. My hairs are also densely packed and lay flat on my head. Still, I can feel my hair between my fingers, I think my fingers are overlysensitive.

Even if you were an F, you still have pretty long hair. ***It doesn't need to be short*** Healthy hair is beautiful, in general. I remember getting lots of compliments when my hair was long (past BSL) even if it's fine (but thick).

[cmnt831]

MissManda, maybe your hair is on the lower end of the medium scale; closer to the fine measurement, but still in the medium range.

I know for certain that I have two different types of hair on my head: fine on the underlayer and medium on the top layer. The fine layer is like silk and densely packed and almost straight, the medium layer actually seems like it contains less hair and has loose spiral curls. It feels more coarse than the underlayer, but not coarse like true coarse hair feels. It's funny to see the demarcation when I wear my hair half up. :p

Oh, and I think that my fine layer looks so much better longer, but the top layer always looks like it could do with a cut.

[PrincessBob]

All I know is that *i* don't have fine hair, my strands can look like sewing thread, so, if yours doesn't it prolly isn't coarse, which is a start for reverse engineering whether yours is fine.

[LilYaYa56]

Fine hair is characterized by a smaller diameter than average hair and it is typically very soft and lacks volume. Also, fine hair resists holding hairstyles for long periods of time.

[UP Lisa]

It can also look oily easily.