To cone or not to cone?

[TXbarbie]

I have been experimenting with CO for nearly 2 months now. And now my hair is extremely flat - my ears can nearly poke out from underneath all of my hair! I used to have such great volume but now it's completely disappeared.

My hair is definitely more tangle-free than it had been before... but other than that it just hangs and is totally lifeless. My ends look okay but my hair near my scalp is almost so flat that it looks oily, if that makes sense.

Is this part of the transition phase? Will I gain volume again?

I'm just wondering if CO for fine, highlighted hair is the right route for me.

If you have fine hair or if you get highlights, etc., do you CO? If you don't, what is your routine?

[Mae]

I haven't had much luck with CO. What I've been doing lately that seems to work pretty well for me is CWC. For volume and less buildup, I have had success with regular ol' SC with a very gentle shampoo (containing decyl glucoside) and a lightweight conditioner, applied sparingly from the ears down. If I'm using a conditioner with silicones, I need a stronger shampoo.

[whiteisle]

Hi :waving:
I don't have fine hair but what has given me good results is a gentle shampoo and a catnip soak and/or rinse instead of commercial conditioner. The catnip leaves my hair soft and conditioned without weighing it down at all. And it helps prevent breakage and splits - Bonus!! :D

Here's the catnip thread. http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=476

ktani has tons of good info and advice there. :)

[hendrix.co]

When I started c.o. I wanted to see what no cones was like so I clarified using a BIT of baking soda and some cone free conditioner (tesemme naturals) rinsed and then i conditioned again. I've been cone free for a while now. After this bottle of conditioner I'm going to c.o. with cones and see how my hair likes it just to compare.

[TXbarbie]

Hi :waving:
I don't have fine hair but what has given me good results is a gentle shampoo and a catnip soak and/or rinse instead of commercial conditioner. The catnip leaves my hair soft and conditioned without weighing it down at all. And it helps prevent breakage and splits - Bonus!! :D

Here's the catnip thread. http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=476

ktani has tons of good info and advice there. :)

Thanks so much! I have heard of using catnip but hadn't really given it much thought.

The one thing that's nice about commercial conditioners is that I can find floral scents...does catnip have a certain smell to it?

[alwayssmiling]

My experience with CO is similar to yours. I have naturally wavy, coarse, frizzy hair that at first seemed to love CO but after a few weeks would look increasingly flat, lank and a bit yuck. So I have experimented. I alternate my washes with CO and moisturizing shampoo washes. I also throw in a CWC at some point during the week. I also do a coconut oil prewash treatment every now and then. The condition of my hair is slowly improving doing this.

[whiteisle]

Thanks so much! I have heard of using catnip but hadn't really given it much thought.

The one thing that's nice about commercial conditioners is that I can find floral scents...does catnip have a certain smell to it?

It does have a scent, sort of herby-minty I would say, but not strong like peppermint. I quite like it because it is subtle. :)

[feralnature]

Hi TXbarbie, I'm in Texas too :)

I have almost all virgin hair but this is what I do:
I condition the ends, then I wash the crown with shampoo taking care not to squirt full strength shampoo onto my head directly, but rather, squirt the shampoo onto my hands and then mix with a bit of water and then rub onto my crown. I then scrub and rinse. The soap suds that run down the length is all it needs. Then I condition my length again, but not the crown. My crown NEVER get's conditioned so it stays full and fluffy. It is new virgin hair so is healthy and does ok without conditioner. By the time it is long enough to be below my ears, it gets it's "turn" to be conditioned.

[Henrietta]

SPECIALISTS' OPINIONS ABOUT CONES: taken from http://jillipoo.blogspot.com/2009/09/silicones-polyquats-and-soap.html
1. Followers of the "Curly Girl" method avoid products with silicone because although they coat the hair to smooth it and reduce frizz, they also are believed to block moisture, which curly hair desperately needs. Have new silicones been developed since that book came out in 2002 that are "lighter" or attach themselves less to hair? And are curlies unnecessarily avoiding silicones, in your opinion?

PERRY: Silicones are not all the same. Some like Dimethicone are substantive (will stick to hair) and others like Dimethicone Copolyol are not substantive (will not stick to hair). Companies can modify Dimethicone Copolyol to make it more substantive. There is also Cyclomethicone which is substantive but will slowly evaporate off the hair just like water. These different types have been around for decades.

Silicones work by coating the hair. They do not penetrate significantly. This means there is some potential for build-up of substantive silicones so avoiding them is not unreasonable. However, they do not affect the amount of moisture in the hair. If silicones on hair did significantly block moisture, curly hair would never dry! The water from your shower wouldn't be able to leave your hair and that just isn't what happens.

There really is no reason for curlies to completely avoid all silicones. Dimethicone Copolyol & Cyclomethicones are perfectly fine to use and will not build up. And occasional use of Dimethicone will not hurt either.


JESS: I agree that most things in moderation won't cause too much trouble. The trouble starts when a heavy cone like Dimethicone is used daily and is not being washed regularly. (as we all know we're not supposed to wash our hair every day for fear of the dreaded poof.) At that point a harsher shampoo is necessary to remove the silicone, thus drying out the hair and causing the curly to believe only more silicone will solve the problem. So the cycle continues. For this reason I avoid all cones in Jessicurl products and use gentle surfactants in the cleansers to that users don't have to face the problem of the rebound cycle. Occasional use of silicones shouldn't be a problem though.


MARSHA: For me, if you can find a gentle shampoo that can remove silicones, then it doesn't seem to matter. I had just been revisiting the silicones issue again to see if they are really worth avoiding. I found that at first, they give me the feeling that everything is okay. It's not that my hair looks any better, but it feels better with the silicones in the beginning. But then, after I shampoo to get them out, I realize they just seem to mask my hair's real condition. In other words, they don't help improve or add to the hair's condition. But let's face it: your hair's not gonna fall off your head if you use silicones. The trick is finding the right shampoo -- many are so rough. For the look I like, I need a lot of product, so I do like to use my gentle cleansing shampoo on my hair. The co-wash method doesn't work for me, and I have witnessed that it doesn't work for everyone.

I am not a fan of Cyclomethicone or Cyclosiloxane. They apparently evaporate off the hair, but for me something in doing so makes my hair frizz. If you must use silicones, I prefer the PEGs and dimethicone copolyol since they have some degree of water solubility. As far as new types of silicones, I haven't seen anything new. The industry seems to be happy with what it has.

JC: I'm certain that there have been new silicones developed but I do think the existing silicones are perfectly fine. Frankly silicones were being abused by curlies circa 2002, especially with people using serums on their hair every day, so the book was necessary for people to rethink this habit. I do think that fast forwarding to today, many curlies are unnecessarily scared of silicones . I personally do NOT think that silicones are bad. In fact, I would even go as far as to say they are good in certain cases.There is a huge difference between using a styling serum with 80% silicone and a shampoo with under 5%. The shampoo with silicone actually offers protection in terms of keeping your hair on your head (preventing breakage) and maintaining the internal moisture. The styling serum is useful for protecting from heat damage therefore necessary in my book for heat styling but perhaps if the serum is used daily, then problems will arise. Some people really do well with silicone containing conditioners (especially bleached/coloured hair) and in this case the silicone offers some protection from moisture loss and helps temporarily seal damaged portions of the hair. Hair is a very personal thing, one person's experience is rarely completely reflective of all hair.

TIFFANY: I believe anything that forms an impenetrable barrier on the hair shaft, like non-water soluble silicones such as dimethicone, is often problematic in the long run. The cuticle of our hair strand is formed like roof tiles to allow penetration of moisture and oxygen into the hair shaft for a reason. Continually coating and sealing the cuticle to prevent it from performing its proper function for a long period of time is not the best route to optimum hair health in the long run.

I do not believe all silicones are "evil"; however, I do counsel my clients to stick to those that are water soluble, such as dimethicone copolyol or PEG/PPG-manufactured silicones, whenever possible to avoid any potential issues.

[Rivanariko]

I have fine hair. CO was not a good option for me, and my hair HATES cone-free conditioners. I'm better off using only shampoo and no conditioner. Every type of cone-free commercial conditioner I've tried (which, granted, hasn't been a ton) has made my hair feel brittle, tangly, and it falls out like crazy while splitting all up the shaft. My hair likes cones and revolts violently if I take them away.

My hair does, however, really like catnip. It's been much happier since I started catnip rinses.

[Suze334]

So any suggestions of conditioners with the lighter silicones?

[Henrietta]

[FONT="Arial"][SIZE="3"]
I have fine hair. CO was not a good option for me, and my hair HATES cone-free conditioners. I'm better off using only shampoo and no conditioner. Every type of cone-free commercial conditioner I've tried (which, granted, hasn't been a ton) has made my hair feel brittle, tangly, and it falls out like crazy while splitting all up the shaft. My hair likes cones and revolts violently if I take them away.


Yes, yes, yes.
If silicones don't make our hair look bad- flat, split, stringy, tangle- I think there's no need to stop using them. After reading opinions of experts (my post above) I am sure I will continue using cones.

[Henrietta]

So any suggestions of conditioners with the lighter silicones?

Try to find conditioner with dimethicone copolyol. This silicone is easy to dissolve in water if you don't want it to build up on your hair. Anyway, cones STAY ON hair, they DON'T GO INSIDE. Another cones which are easy to remove using water are: -lauryl methicone copolyol
-hydrolyzed wheat protein hydroxypropyl polysiloxane
-every cone with PEG as firts part of its' name
-Amodimethicone
-Trideceth-12
-Cetrimonium Chloride
and also

- amodimethicone - You need chemicals to remove it - (coco betaine for example, easy to find, it's common as one of main ingredients in many shampoos) but it often comes with trideceth-12 and cetrimonium chloride which makes it easier to remove from hair. This is really friendly silicone. ;)






I am sorry for that mess with fonts and sizes. I am not able to fix in anyhow.

[spidermom]

I didn't like CO as a steady thing, either, for exactly the reason you describe - my hair became limp; just clung to my scalp and hung there. Bleh! CWC has given me much more reliable good results, and I throw a CO into the mix once every 10 days or so.

[Henrietta]

I have a question for those of you who have bad experience with silicones. I mean I know that cones can cause that hair is harsh, dry, dull... But for some people silicones work pefrect. So actually is it possible that someone will use cones for, let's say a year, everything will be OK, and suddenly it will start to be bad or if for someone cones are bad it is visible after the first use? SO far I live in unity with cones and I wonder if it is possible that some day cones will make my hair harsh instead of smooth and shiny or if it is fine it will be fine forever.

[virgo75]

I have a question for those of you who have bad experience with silicones. I mean I know that cones can cause that hair is harsh, dry, dull... But for some people silicones work pefrect. So actually is it possible that someone will use cones for, let's say a year, everything will be OK, and suddenly it will start to be bad or if for someone cones are bad it is visible after the first use? SO far I live in unity with cones and I wonder if it is possible that some day cones will make my hair harsh instead of smooth and shiny or if it is fine it will be fine forever.

After trying hundreds of products(I wish I were joking :o), I think that nothing works 100% all the time - for infinity.

Depending on the weather & the state of your hair(not to mention ingredient changes in the products that you love :rolleyes: - hate those), it's safe to say that there will be times that whatever you're doing will not work for you here and there even if it works most of the time.

Even people who sing the praises of CO, shampoo bars, and WO end up on here asking what they should do because of various problems they're encountering that they didn't encounter before. Whether it's buildup, dryness, breakage, hair loss, etc.

So do what works for you.
When you hit a snag, you may have to find something to tweak your routine.
Then you may be able to go back to what was working for you before with an occassional change here and there.

[Henrietta]

So do what works for you.
When you hit a snag, you may have to find something to tweak your routine.
Then you may be able to go back to what was working for you before with an occassional change here and there.

I will do so. I think it's the best idea. I have to stop worrying about something that hasn't happened yet and I should be happy with my cones if so far they work well for me.

[Holly9192]

no cone for me... i got chunky gross dandruff (sorry if tmi) but since ive gone no cone and no sulfates my heads been really happy :)

[x0h_bother]

SPECIALISTS' OPINIONS ABOUT CONES: taken from http://jillipoo.blogspot.com/2009/09/silicones-polyquats-and-soap.html
1. Followers of the "Curly Girl" method avoid products with silicone because although they coat the hair to smooth it and reduce frizz, they also are believed to block moisture, which curly hair desperately needs. Have new silicones been developed since that book came out in 2002 that are "lighter" or attach themselves less to hair? And are curlies unnecessarily avoiding silicones, in your opinion?

PERRY: Silicones are not all the same. Some like Dimethicone are substantive (will stick to hair) and others like Dimethicone Copolyol are not substantive (will not stick to hair). Companies can modify Dimethicone Copolyol to make it more substantive. There is also Cyclomethicone which is substantive but will slowly evaporate off the hair just like water. These different types have been around for decades.

There really is no reason for curlies to completely avoid all silicones. Dimethicone Copolyol & Cyclomethicones are perfectly fine to use and will not build up. And occasional use of Dimethicone will not hurt either.


I am not a fan of Cyclomethicone or Cyclosiloxane. They apparently evaporate off the hair, but for me something in doing so makes my hair frizz. If you must use silicones, I prefer the PEGs and dimethicone copolyol since they have some degree of water solubility. As far as new types of silicones, I haven't seen anything new. The industry seems to be happy with what it has.
I was so happy when I found out about Dimethicone Copolyol being water soluable. I'm now going back to my Joico K-Pak Reconstructing Daily Conditioner :cheese: I love it and recommend it.

[mellie89]

I have fine hair too, and CO made my hair limp. I went back to my usual S&C every other day, sometimes without cones, sometimes with. I use SLES, so I don't get buildup.

I use coconut oil on the ends overnight for moisture, and my hair looks great. CO is not for everyone. The extra conditioning was not worth the loss of volume for me.

[Lisette]

I also think my hair is flat with CO. I now do CO once or twice a week and wash with Rhassoul or Kesham once a week. I like this better than completely CO.

Lisette

[Henrietta]

I have one more theory, hope you will refer to it because I CAN'T SLEEP, THINKING OF CONES.
I know now than someday cones might stop working for me and my hair will look like a haystack. But what is going on now? Is my hair getting more and more harsh under a cover of cones? I mean- before I started using cones I had normal hair- not too damage, not too healthy. Ok. Rather damage than healtny and shiny. But is my hair now getting more and more damage because of:
1. build up of cones
2. lack of real moinsture, just covering damage?
Cones, as thet are strong chemicals are able to cover any damage now. But let's say that tomorrow I won't have time to condition, so my hair will look rouhg, two times worse that before cones. And if after a year I'll forget (haha) to condition it will look ten times worse? Though after using cones it'll be still shiny and smooth? I mean- is my hair UNDER the cover of cones still the same or is it getting worse because of build up and lack of real moisture?

I love my hair so much :heart:. I think I'll be able to put up with few weeks of rough hair before it'll get used to the lack of cones. It's better that damaging. But I need to know how bad it is now. And how bad it'll be if I will be using cones longer. My mum bought me two bottles of conditioner, it's 14 fl oz. It'll take me a year to finish the bottles and I can't throw them away bacause thet were too expensive.

[x0h_bother]

I have one more theory, hope you will refer to it because I CAN'T SLEEP, THINKING OF CONES.
I know now than someday cones might stop working for me and my hair will look like a haystack. But what is going on now? Is my hair getting more and more harsh under a cover of cones? I mean- before I started using cones I had normal hair- not too damage, not too healthy. Ok. Rather damage than healtny and shiny. But is my hair now getting more and more damage because of:
1. build up of cones
2. lack of real moinsture, just covering damage?
Cones, as thet are strong chemicals are able to cover any damage now. But let's say that tomorrow I won't have time to condition, so my hair will look rouhg, two times worse that before cones. And if after a year I'll forget (haha) to condition it will look ten times worse? Though after using cones it'll be still shiny and smooth? I mean- is my hair UNDER the cover of cones still the same or is it getting worse because of build up and lack of real moisture?

I love my hair so much :heart:. I think I'll be able to put up with few weeks of rough hair before it'll get used to the lack of cones. It's better that damaging. But I need to know how bad it is now. And how bad it'll be if I will be using cones longer. My mum bought me two bottles of conditioner, it's 14 fl oz. It'll take me a year to finish the bottles and I can't throw them away bacause thet were too expensive.

I'm not sure if it gets rougher. I did an experriement because i thought it was good for my hair where I "treated" my hair over and over with cones and I personally found it to get worse. Once I let up, it got better- less dry, frizzy, damaged. But of course this is all my experience. But when I went cone free, I got very dry hair that did get rougher than original. So I think the lack of protection was also not helpful. I've concluded I need both to be happy.:shrug:

[chrissy-b]

I'm a little confused by this thread. The title asks whether you should use cones or not, but then your question is about CO. Are you asking whether you should CO with cones?

I was CO for quite some time and have fine hair that is also very thin but I only used cone-free conditioner. My hair loved CO but my scalp did not so I had to start using shampoo again. I use a sulfate-free shampoo and use mostly cone-free conditioners with a cone conditioner or coney leave-in on occasion. The only cones my hair tolerates well are dimethicone and amodimethicone.

[Henrietta]

I have just read this: after using cones for 30 days everyday and rinsing them off with water, your hair will be 0,03% thicker, I mean every single hair and will be 8% stronger, which means that it will be 8% harder to tear a single hair.
Do you believe it? To me it sounds ...weird.

[sophistiCat *]

I've gone cone free for the first time (Co'd last night) and am absolutely amazed at the state of my hair. I decided to quit cones because my hair was feeling quite dry and dull, despite Co working for me really well. Well, I woke up this morning to really soft shiny hair :D Yes, it's a little frizzy and I have some fly-aways, but I am amazed that my hair seems happy. I was very much expecting for frizzy tangly dry mess to be revealed form under the cones but no :D will have to give it some time before I can properly sing the praises of going cone free, but today I am very happy!
Hope my experience is useful in some way :)

[Henrietta]

I've gone cone free for the first time (Co'd last night) and am absolutely amazed at the state of my hair. I decided to quit cones because my hair was feeling quite dry and dull, despite Co working for me really well. Well, I woke up this morning to really soft shiny hair :D Yes, it's a little frizzy and I have some fly-aways, but I am amazed that my hair seems happy. I was very much expecting for frizzy tangly dry mess to be revealed form under the cones but no :D will have to give it some time before I can properly sing the praises of going cone free, but today I am very happy!
Hope my experience is useful in some way :)

I am expecting something like that too but your case gives me a hope. Tomorrow is my last coney wash and the we'll see...

[Tattersail]

i have tried co-washing for about 4 weeks now and i've decided my hair and especially my scalp hate it. i've been also trying to air dry it more to reduce damage through blow-drying, and that makes it even worse. i ended up with a fluffy head of hair. last night i was getting ready to go out and i just couldn't stand it anymore, i used cones... and oh my god, was my hair soft and shiny (yeah, i straightened it too). i can't really see myself going back to co-washing, but might try cwc, sounds pretty good.