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View Full Version : Poo bars = damage?



whiteisle
March 1st, 2010, 10:52 AM
I found this concerning what a shampoo should be:

"Slightly acidic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid) (pH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH) less than 7), since a basic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_(chemistry)) environment weakens the hair by breaking the disulfide bonds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disulfide_bond) in hair keratin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keratin)."

Does this mean that using shampoo bars (ie soap) is actually damaging to the hair? I understand that it raises the cuticle and that's one reason for an acid rinse to close them but since poo bars are basic/alkaline does this in fact weaken the hair regardless of what you do to it after that like the statement above says?

Merewen
March 1st, 2010, 12:13 PM
I don't know. I do know a lot of people here have had really good results with poo bars. I also know that the number of splits I got went up when I was using them. However, all I have to do to get split ends is to look at my hair cross-eyed.

meowmeow
March 1st, 2010, 02:22 PM
I doubt it really does cause damage. Yes it's akaline, but not alkaline enough to do damage.

This is just what I think by the way, I don't have scientific proof to really back this up. :p

IndigoAsh
March 1st, 2010, 02:33 PM
I had the opposite of damage... completely. A straight month of just using a shampoo bar, oiling my hair after every wash, air drying it, and putting it in a braid or bun. I found that for me personally, washing with a regular shampoo every few times after a shampoo bar helped me with build up. The month of the shampoo bar I had a decline in splits and it grew an inch!!! I have read online though that supposedly shampoo bars have a 10 alkaline level. I'm not a chemist though and just go with my personal experience with products.

If shampoo bars aren't for you, this lady custom makes hair products for people. She's super nice and pretty quick with answers.

http://www.etsy.com/shop/Verbenacustomblends

StephanieB
March 1st, 2010, 03:13 PM
"Slightly acidic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid) (pH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH) less than 7), since a basic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_(chemistry)) environment weakens the hair by breaking the disulfide bonds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disulfide_bond) in hair keratin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keratin)."

The above statement ^ is chemically true... according to chemist-hubby.

His comment: Yes, that's true. Chemical "base" (opposite "acid") softens hair... makes hair softer, and thereby, somwehat weaker/more easy to break or more prone to breakage. That's how these make your hair softer. That's also likely to cause some breakage (split ends).

His suggestion: Try using such shampoo bars, rinsing very thoroughly with plenty of running water, then rinse with fresh beer (ie beer that is just-opened and still has a good 'head') instead of the more usual flat-beer rinse that most of us do...

He says that fresh beer has a good amount of carbonic acid, which is lost when you let beer go flat.

He also recommends drinking half of your good beer in your hair-washing shower, and using the other half on your hair. lol

whiteisle
March 1st, 2010, 04:25 PM
The above statement ^ is chemically true... according to chemist-hubby.

His comment: Yes, that's true. Chemical "base" (opposite "acid") softens hair... makes hair softer, and thereby, somwehat weaker/more easy to break or more prone to breakage. That's how these make your hair softer. That's also likely to cause some breakage (split ends).

His suggestion: Try using such shampoo bars, rinsing very thoroughly with plenty of running water, then rinse with fresh beer (ie beer that is just-opened and still has a good 'head') instead of the more usual flat-beer rinse that most of us do...

He says that fresh beer has a good amount of carbonic acid, which is lost when you let beer go flat.

He also recommends drinking half of your good beer in your hair-washing shower, and using the other half on your hair. lol


ROFL! :D I can just imagine the look on DH's face if I were to go sauntering off to the bathroom with one of his beers in hand. :bigeyes: or :agape: 'Course, he's probably desensitized by this point with my many hair concoctions he might not even blink. :p

teela1978
March 1st, 2010, 04:44 PM
The above statement ^ is chemically true... according to chemist-hubby.

His comment: Yes, that's true. Chemical "base" (opposite "acid") softens hair... makes hair softer, and thereby, somwehat weaker/more easy to break or more prone to breakage. That's how these make your hair softer. That's also likely to cause some breakage (split ends).

His suggestion: Try using such shampoo bars, rinsing very thoroughly with plenty of running water, then rinse with fresh beer (ie beer that is just-opened and still has a good 'head') instead of the more usual flat-beer rinse that most of us do...

He says that fresh beer has a good amount of carbonic acid, which is lost when you let beer go flat.

He also recommends drinking half of your good beer in your hair-washing shower, and using the other half on your hair. lol

A dilute vinegar rinse does the same thing and is a bit cheaper :flower:

actually... any carbonated beverage should be able to do that shouldn't it? Although they're probably even more acidic...

ETA: and just for clarification, disulfide bridges should reform once in an acidic environment. So while alkaline soaps can weaken the hair and you should be gentle while the soap is on your hair, a good rinsing should help get things back to normal.

Madame J
March 1st, 2010, 04:45 PM
A dilute vinegar rinse does the same thing and is a bit cheaper :flower:

actually... any carbonated beverage should be able to do that shouldn't it? Although they're probably even more acidic...

Yeah, you can pour dilute vinegar over your head and drink the WHOLE beer!

florenonite
March 1st, 2010, 04:56 PM
Yeah, you can pour dilute vinegar over your head and drink the WHOLE beer!

I prefer this suggestion :lol:

I use shampoo bars without an acid rinse (though I have got soft water for most of the year), and I haven't had any noticeable damage with them. Maybe it's true theoretically but I'm not going to stop using something that works because of that. Theoretically SLS should destroy one's hair (and it makes my scalp horribly itchy!), but some people have great success with it.

Velouria
March 1st, 2010, 05:00 PM
Shampoo bars definitely damaged my hair. I had a dramatic increase in splits and breakage. The damage was permanent; I haven't used a shampoo bar in months, but my hair is essentially "chemically processed" from their use.

zen_oven
March 1st, 2010, 05:14 PM
I haven't noticed any damage, but I do CWC, so most of my length is protected and I really only wash my scalp with the poo bar. I only wash my scalp once or twice a week too. I've been doing this for quite a while.

StephanieB
March 1st, 2010, 05:25 PM
and just for clarification, disulfide bridges should reform once in an acidic environment.
Some do reform, but not always all. So says hubby, anyhow.

No! Some carbonated beverages are more acidic than beer.

Vinegar owrks, also.

Sometimes I use vinegar, sometimes flat beer. I personally have never used 'fresh' beer.

I find a bit of difference in my hair between vinegar rinses and beer rinses. That's why I 'waste' good beer occasionally. ;)

Only once or twice I accidentally left a Brooklyn Brewery Black Chocolate Stout to go flat, after having been distracted by an emregency. Those times were the two most expensive treatment things that I ever put on my hair!! lol
And I cried copious amounts of crodocile tears the whole time, too... lmao (not really)

I have to admit that the BBBCS made my hair color temporarily DROP-DEAD GORGEOUS... but I just can't bring myself to pour such black perfection over my hair. ha ha ha

StephanieB
March 1st, 2010, 05:27 PM
Yeah, you can pour dilute vinegar over your head and drink the WHOLE beer!
I use straight vinegar - I don't dilute it.

But I'm ALL FOR drinking the whole beer! :cheese:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p44/StephaniesPix/Beverages%20and%20Potables/BlackChocolateStout2.jpghttp://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p44/StephaniesPix/Beverages%20and%20Potables/BlackCocolateStout.jpg?t=1267486198

teela1978
March 1st, 2010, 05:41 PM
Some do reform, but not always all. So says hubby, anyhow.

Overall they tend to. Breaking and unbreaking of disulfide bridges is how perms work. Add a basic solution, put the strand in a new configuration (on a roller, or comb out straight), neutralize in new configuration to reform bonds--> new Curly! or Straight! hair.

If the secondary structure of the proteins is so corrupted that the disulfide bonds aren't reforming anymore you've got serious damage... possibly to the point of hair melting off your head damage :shrug:

marikamt
March 1st, 2010, 06:20 PM
This is completely freaking me out...... I have never really had 'hair issues' even before joining LHC. In an effort to treat my hair 'better', I did switch to 'poo bars about 6 mos ago..... all of a sudden my hair has been freaking out. Split ends, dryness (which I have never had issues w/), etc...... now I am wondering if it was using the 'poo bars.
I wish I had known. I hope I didn't do any permanent damage to my hair.

StephanieB
March 1st, 2010, 06:22 PM
If the secondary structure of the proteins is so corrupted that the disulfide bonds aren't reforming anymore you've got serious damage... possibly to the point of hair melting off your head damage :shrug:
Yes, but let's remember that mine did [get burned off of my head, and I sustained terrible chemical burns to my scalp, also]... check old threads for that long, sad story.

StephanieB
March 1st, 2010, 06:24 PM
This is completely freaking me out...... I have never really had 'hair issues' even before joining LHC. In an effort to treat my hair 'better', I did switch to 'poo bars about 6 mos ago..... all of a sudden my hair has been freaking out. Split ends, dryness (which I have never had issues w/), etc...... now I am wondering if it was using the 'poo bars.
I wish I had known. I hope I didn't do any permanent damage to my hair.
Only one way to find out - stop using the bars and see what happens in a few months.

There are all kinds of reasons that might not be related to your use of shampoo bars. Don't toss them out just yet.

Fractalsofhair
March 1st, 2010, 06:48 PM
Oddly enough, shampoo bars seem to be the least damaging products for my hair. SLS makes it dry and frizzy, cones(which are supposedly good) cause it to break off once it gets longer than shoulder due to the weight, and a lot of the more gentle cleansers just... feel odd with my hair.

I think you could get damage from shampoo bars if you left the lather on for quite a while, but my whole shower probably takes less than 10 minutes, and the shampooing part is like maybe 2 minutes? Followed by an acid rinse, and conditioning with protein heavy stuff(which my hair likes). In all reality, 2 minutes of anything on your hair if it's not horribly strong won't do all that much. You could dip your hair in semi diluted bleach, and it likely won't cause much damage, if you rinsed it out. Also, I understand with shampoo bars, they bind to the oils and such, and only bind to the hair once the oils are gone, and even then, they prefer minerals in the water. So, yes, if you strip all the oils out, and then use shampoo bars, I could see damage there.

There can be mechanical damage from rubbing it though. Not something I've noticed personally, but it could be a concern.

Aer
March 1st, 2010, 07:05 PM
I can't tell you the science of it, but shampoo bars helped my hair. I usually was having a moderate number of splits, but when I found a couple of bars I liked from a few different supplier, after a month, I got the minimal amount of splits. I only wash my scalp, and I oil regularly, so that helps.
I did have a bad experience with shampoo bars once. It was Burt's Bee's Rosemary Peppermint shampoo bar, it all but fried my hair. I mean, I felt like I washed my hair with a mint scented combo of Ajax and window cleaner. It was horrible, but it ended up being a good body bar if you had been hiking,gardening, etc.

darkwaves
March 1st, 2010, 07:21 PM
I love the beer theory -- but how old and flat can the beer be?

I ask because some that was left outside to cool down a month or so ago froze... It's still frozen in the garage.... If I brought it in, could I use it on my hair???

Thanks!

teela1978
March 1st, 2010, 07:38 PM
Yes, but let's remember that mine did [get burned off of my head, and I sustained terrible chemical burns to my scalp, also]... check old threads for that long, sad story.
From shampoo bars?

sonng
March 2nd, 2010, 06:03 PM
I use a shampoo bar so do I need to rinse my hair with vinegar to balance the scalp?
I never knew that bars get your hair like that :< now I'm paranoid..

Centelleo
March 3rd, 2010, 09:35 AM
I feel like shampoo bars have done a world of benefit to my hair. Traditional shampoo (no matter what kind of formulation) always left my hair stripped, dry, coarse, and prone to breakage. After consistent shampoo bar usage (with no traditional follow-up of conditioner), my hair is much softer yet resilient, shiny, and overall feels less damaged. I haven't noticed an uptick in shedding or splits and my ends don't feel or look like straw anymore.

I have hard water so I do rinse with a weak ACV dilution.

rach
March 3rd, 2010, 09:51 AM
Yeah, you can pour dilute vinegar over your head and drink the WHOLE beer!

beer no way would have a chance to make it to my head :lol: , vinegar on the other hand has a far better chance unless you have a bag of chips in front of you :ponder: chips and beer - mmmm getting hungry now :yumm:

Silver Strands
March 3rd, 2010, 11:15 AM
I have found that using a shampoo bar has resulted in more hair loss during the washing procedure than any SLS or ALS product ever.

I also have had more tangles, snarls and a very dry feeling after my hair has dried.
This was also after an ACV rinse and non cone conditioner.

I have tried them twice from 2 different companies and only for a day or two.
I was too afraid to go any longer and I couldn't take the constant tangles.

I love cones and whoever first put them in shampoo & conditioner.

spidermom
March 3rd, 2010, 11:22 AM
I can't stand the feel of a bar of soap, so I wouldn't use it even if it were the best product EVER. But the alkalinity aspect has always seemed counter-productive to good hair to me.

Magicknthenight
June 2nd, 2010, 04:55 PM
Ah this is kinda scary!:scared: I hope its not damaging. I've been using them a few months probably. I noticed they are really strong in the *cleaning* sense. Also i can go longer without washing my hair. It takes a lot longer for it to start to feel/look oily. When it finally does my scalp hair still feels sort of dry (recently). I wonder if its because its drying it out? I just thought maybe it was because i was getting older...out of the oily teenage years:bounce:. I guess I'll try going back to CO and use my Aubrey organics shampoo again. I liked using the sample shampoo bars i had especially because they last a long time and since i don't have much money now i wouldn't have to worry about replacing it a bunch. I also liked some of the results at first. However if its something that could come back and end up damaging what i had put all this work in its probably not worth it. I'd hope anything that happened with them isn't permanent. It is something i worried about a little bit so i searched for this thread to read up on it. After i use them my scalp hair feels strange...doing an ACV rinse helps but still. When my hair dried when i first got it i liked the results it seemed fine. Lately my scalp hair has been dryer though. I'm not sure if i can say its the shampoo bars or me getting older so i guess I'll try other things until i know.
Hopefully babying it can return it to its normal state!:D
ETA: Maybe my scalp has finally adjusted a bit so i can go longer in between washes..

Fractalsofhair
June 2nd, 2010, 05:14 PM
I don't think they take that much longer in between washes, unless it's like how CO washing can help with that. I'd suggest using conditioner after them if your hair and scalp are dry.

little_cherry
June 2nd, 2010, 08:55 PM
I use henna sooqs' shampoo bars that are pH balanced and my hair loves them.

Magicknthenight
June 27th, 2010, 03:57 AM
I don't think they take that much longer in between washes, unless it's like how CO washing can help with that. I'd suggest using conditioner after them if your hair and scalp are dry.
Oh I use more conditioner then i care to admit :p
But thanks


So i went back to washing with Aubrey organics shampoo. My hair seemed a little smoother..but my scalp was itchy! I guess i didn't realize how much it went away with CV bars...until it came back! I'm sure its not good to scratch my scalp raw..
So I think I'm going back. If i see any damage I'll stop. The Aubrey organics seemed to calm some frizzies down but it seems like if i switch it up that happens..I think i just like variety. Ordered some kiss my face. Pretty excited to try that!
Also my hair is usually pretty heavily oiled and the shampoo bars don't usually get it all completely out. When i used the AO i realized when my hair dried most of the oil was gone..
Just thought that was interesting...and odd! Not used to it so much. Any of the little bit left from spritzing seems to have absorbed after a few days..

fairystar32
June 27th, 2010, 04:58 AM
I used shampoo bars and tried them from all different suppliers in loads of different types and they left my hair dreadful. I got more splits, and my hair looked like it had wax on it, so greasy despite me rinsing like mad and using dilute vinegar rinses
I would never use them again.

renia22
June 27th, 2010, 09:02 AM
I also tried several bars from several different companies and my hair hated them. The last one I used over a month made my hair fall out more and dried and damaged it so badly I am still trying to recover my hair from it (and this was after only 3 days of use). :(

twilight
June 27th, 2010, 09:17 AM
hm, my hair loves shampoo bars+acv rinse... much better than any shampoo with or without any conditioner i have ever used. less tangles, more shine, more heft. i wonder if the type of water used to wash with makes a lot of difference, or if it is just individual hair types?

i always thought detergents in regular shampoos (maybe especially the "cheap' no-cones stuff a lot of us have used) would be equally as harsh as the alkalinity in most poo-bars. detergents/surfactants are always alkaline, aren't they??

edit: ok wiki just told me that shampoos are normally 'slightly acidic.' hm, my hair still hates them!