Discrimination

[Medvssa]

Yesterday, my boyfriend was watching TV and I was sorta paying little attention to it (it being French with subtitles in Dutch, I was distracted by the book on my lap :p) but I saw something that irked me.

It was a program about homeless people in Brussels. There was this homeless person, who apparently was drunk most of the time (his TV time at least). He had a few inches long hair, which didn't look too dirty or knotted, and a relatively well kept longish full beard. He may have had lice since now and then he scratched his head (but then, so do I...) but living in the streets, this is more possible.

Next shot of this person, he is in a respirator in a hospital, all shaven (head, beard). Apparently he had been attacked and ended up in the hospital. Next shot, he explains: I don't remember anything, I just woke up and I was on a hospital bed, and my hair and beard were gone. He brings his hand to his head and looks very confused. I got the impression he was quite sad about losing his hair and beard. If he was attached to them, it was probably one of the very few things this person had.

Now, there may be a kind of valid reason to have shaven this person's head without his permission, if he had lice and ended up in the hospital (there was no trauma at all to be seen in the head/face)
But I do wonder, whould have they shaven his head if he were a woman? and what if he wasn't homeless?

I see this kind of discrimination against men also in other places, like police and military (where women are allowed long hair, and men are not). There is also a very strong public bias agains bearded men (I've read blogs in the lines of: Scientists! time to shave your beards! :rolleyes:)

:confused:

[Nat242]

Sorry - was this a film or a documentary? Did it really happen?

I totally agree that men with long hair and beards are often discriminated against in our society. My partner has APL hair in very good condition, and a nice beard that he maintains at an inch or so in length. Although he is a sweet man with a very gentle demeanor, people avoid sitting next to him on the bus, and people make disparaging comments to him sometimes, including racist remarks (not that it would be okay if they did, but they don't even apply to his ancestry...people make weird assumptions :rolleyes:). He's studying science, so if he stays in academia/research, chances are he'll be able to keep his hair and beard, but if he goes to the corporate sector, it might have to go. Not fair.

-- Natalie

[AlleyKitten]

I definitely agree that rigid gender roles hurt everybody -- if men aren't allowed to have long hair or be pretty, and women get nasty comments if they aren't, then everybody is losing. This is part of the reason I consider myself a feminist.

I'm lucky enough to live in a place where my boyfriend's APL/BSL hair is not all that unusual, and he doesn't generally get grief for it out in public, but I'm very aware that in a lot of settings it just wouldn't be feasible for him to grow his lovely shiny 1b hair out, and it makes me very sad (especially as I think I may have convinced him to keep letting it grow, and that I'll find it really sexy!).

[Medvssa]

Sorry - was this a film or a documentary? Did it really happen?
Documentary, it was real.

I fortunately never lived in areas where there was a very strong prejudice agains long haired men (the only thing my boyfriend complains about is that very often people ask him if he has cigarrete rolling paper, and he thinks it is because of his hair that they think he smokes pot :p) aside for the usual stupid joke.
But I have heard from other people that they had to cut their hair because it was a job requirement (I'll never do it, who do they think they are??!) or they felt discriminated against. I heard about it more often in Spain than here in Belgium, though.

But, it is still there :shrug:

[Just_Isabel]

I was surprised when a friend told me that her husband used to have very long hair when they first met, she said he used to wear a waist length braid, which she really liked.
He now has the normal short hair most men have. She said he felt pressured into cutting (not all at once, but his hair got shorter with time).

Long haired men do get discriminated against, a lot.
Many people see the long hair and immediately connect that man with some negative stereotype. I get the impression that it's worse than tattoos or piercings. :? (I'm not saying that tats and piercings are bad, just that they're not "acceptable" to a large part of society.)

[florenonite]

This thread reminds me of a story a friend of mine once told me. He had shoulder-length hair when he was at school. He cut it before coming to uni because he realised that he didn't even like it long, and only had it long to annoy people. In his (standard grade? higher? I don't remember, but it was around that age) guitar class there were a few other boys with long hair, and the teacher once pulled them aside and said 'Please tell me you don't all listen to metal'. The other three replied in the affirmative whilst my friend said he didn't. When asked what he liked he replied sheepishly 'well, I quite like blues.' I found this story quite amusing when he told me it, but it's also indicative of discrimination in a way. The teacher made the assumption that all guys with long hair are metalheads. Now, I know quite a few of this friend's friends from school (several of them came to the same uni, and two others are at one nearby) and all four of the guys had at between SL and WL hair at school. Two of them, yes, do listen to metal, but the other two listen to blues, rock, etc. Indeed, the friend about whom I was talking before is the person who got me into the Smiths, who definitely aren't metal. Ergo, within this small sample of people from that school (although when I joked that everyone up north has long hair I was assured that 'no, it's just us') only half listen to metal, and the other half appear to abhor it (one has told me he does, the other one's never mentioned it), but there was this assumption that all long-haired guys listen to metal.

[Cricket]

DH used to have long hair. I loved it (but I love his short-haired look too). He was passed over for a middle management position once because of his hair and beard. Someone actually took him aside and said that if he would adopt a more 'corporate' image, he would get the job. He kept the hair.

Now, his hair has been short for five years. He works for a security firm that has rigid standards. After five years, we just managed to get him permission to grow out a beard (thankfully he has to keep it short and tidy) unlike his full long beard of years past.

I found that it wasn't him that was getting the comments, it was me. People would say to me "I don't see why you let your DH have hair like that." Well... it is HIS hair. Its not up to my to impose my will on him in that manner, and I feel for any man or woman who has to deal with that kind of pressure from a spouse. Apparently, my attitude makes me a bad wife. :rolleyes: Whatever.

[Medvssa]

I found that it wasn't him that was getting the comments, it was me. People would say to me "I don't see why you let your DH have hair like that." Well... it is HIS hair. Its not up to my to impose my will on him in that manner, and I feel for any man or woman who has to deal with that kind of pressure from a spouse. Apparently, my attitude makes me a bad wife. :rolleyes: Whatever.
That is another thing I do not understand. And I see this attitude often and even "women's magazine's" offer tips as to how to "change" your SO! :confused:
Instead of looking for the right person, you have to go out, seek a random individual and then mold them to your convenience??

Cricket, I think that is and extremely rude thing to say to you. Can't they even fathom that you might like that look?

[Lady Godiva]

Long haired men do get discriminated against, a lot.
Many people see the long hair and immediately connect that man with some negative stereotype. I get the impression that it's worse than tattoos or piercings. :? (I'm not saying that tats and piercings are bad, just that they're not "acceptable" to a large part of society.)My husband would agree with you. He says that since tattoos and piercings have become somewhat mainstream now, the fact that he has them doesn't turn many heads. Part of this may be that most tattoos can be covered up in a pinch, and earrings can be removed temporarily, but long hair is difficult for men to disguise. He often says that his long hair still gets the most reactions.

What's interesting is that some of the strongest inquiries are from other long haired men, who don't initially trust the motive behind the long hair. One man challenged him, "Is that for real, or is it a put-on?" When Hubs replied that is was all him, the man smiled, nodded, got in his truck and drove off.

That is another thing I do not understand. And I see this attitude often and even "women's magazine's" offer tips as to how to "change" your SO! :confused: Instead of looking for the right person, you have to go out, seek a random individual and then mold them to your convenience??I once read a rather damning description of brides that was meant to be a cautionary motive check for women. The idea is that it's fine to believe in the "aisle, altar and hymn," but not "I'll alter him." :twocents:

Cricket, I think that is and extremely rude thing to say to you. Can't they even fathom that you might like that look?Nope, they don't. It utterly blows women's minds that I prefer the warrior look to shaved and cropped. Frankly, I don't get many women. :lol:

[truepeacenik]

one reason the man might have had the hair shaved was matted blood and stitches needed.

when I was hospitalized, unconscious, in the 80s about 1/3 of my head was close-cropped.
yuck.

[Druid of Alba]

I think that it is true, too. It is horrible. I think that everyone should do whatever they want, as long as they are not harming others.

[Riot Crrl]

I was also going to suggest that perhaps he had head and facial lacerations that led medical personnel to the decision to do that, to treat the injuries more easily. If he had been conscious, or, even an unconscious homeless female, they may have tried to do more to save more hair. Sometimes there are procedures that everyone may need done, female, male, homeless, rich, that could require head shaving for the lowest risk.

[CurlyNinja]

Nope, they don't. It utterly blows women's minds that I prefer the warrior look to shaved and cropped. Frankly, I don't get many women. :lol:

Haha! This made me laugh...the warrior look! Never quite thought of it that way, but I can see the appeal!

Everyone's entitled to their own personal style. I hate it when people try to influence their S.O.'s into different looks, but it's even more shocking when outsiders presume to judge one person because of their partner's appearance!

I think people wonder why I love the "skinny nerd boy" thing on my boyfriend, and I'm sure even more wonder about the interracial thing. :shrug: Frankly, I don't see much difference between judging someone based on their S.O.'s personal appearance and judging them for being with a person who is in some way categorically "different" from them ie. race, creed, region, ethnicity, etc. And if we don't see the latter as acceptable, I don't see how the former could be any better.

[maskedrose]

Lady Godiva - I'm all for the warrior look too! I really don't understand society's aversion to long hair on men - I find it incredibly attractive and not the least bit unprofessional or what have you...

[MeganS]

Everyone's entitled to their own personal style. I hate it when people try to influence their S.O.'s into different looks, but it's even more shocking when outsiders presume to judge one person because of their partner's appearance!
I completely agree with this. My DH cuts his own hair (buzzed, nearly shaved in fact). I like it, but if he decided to grow it out, that wouldn't bother me at all, either. When I mentioned to him I was considering growing my hair out as far as it would grow, he said, "Fine by me."

(And then reconsidered, because he's always picking my hairs off his clothes, and worries how much worse it'll be at waist length and beyond. :D)

[Medvssa]

I was also going to suggest that perhaps he had head and facial lacerations that led medical personnel to the decision to do that, to treat the injuries more easily.

one reason the man might have had the hair shaved was matted blood and stitches needed.

I also thoguht of that, but as I said in my first post, there was no trauma at all to be seen in the head/face, I may have missed it, I don't know. They shaved everything, and this made me think it was either because there was lice, or because they thought he was "unkept" :rolleyes:

If it was the lice, I also wonder, do the also shave the head of any child that arrives into the hospital with lice?

[Medvssa]

Is it too bad if I quote myself? :wacko: but this got me thinking...



People would say to me "I don't see why you let your DH have hair like that."
Cricket, I think that is and extremely rude thing to say to you. Can't they even fathom that you might like that look?

My boyfriend's eyebrows meet at the middle, then have a party. I actually like it, but nobody seems to believe me :shrug: I've got several people saying to me "he is handsome, if only he whould shave/pluck between the eyebrows//can't you convince him to shave/pluck//I don't like that, why doesn't he shave it?" I always answered that I actually like it and would never suggest anything of the sort, only to be awarded an incredulous look. It annoyed me a little bit, but now I realize it is as rude as being told why don't I ask him to cut his hair (that would certainly grant an explosive reaction from me :D) I know those people were not trying to be rude, but yeah they also can't fathom why I would like not a warrior look, but a caveman look :D That I pluck my eyebrows to an inch (correction: 1⁄32 of an inch ;) ) of their life, doesn't mean I want my boyfriend to do the same :rolleyes:

[Saoirse]

Is it too bad if I quote myself? :wacko: but this got me thinking...



My boyfriend's eyebrows meet at the middle, then have a party. I actually like it, but nobody seems to believe me :shrug: I've got several people saying to me "he is handsome, if only he whould shave/pluck between the eyebrows//can't you convince him to shave/pluck//I don't like that, why doesn't he shave it?" I always answered that I actually like it and would never suggest anything of the sort, only to be awarded an incredulous look. It annoyed me a little bit, but now I realize it is as rude as being told why don't I ask him to cut his hair (that would certainly grant an explosive reaction from me :D) I know those people were not trying to be rude, but yeah they also can't fathom why I would like not a warrior look, but a caveman look :D That I pluck my eyebrows to an inch (correction: 1⁄32 of an inch ;) ) of their life, doesn't mean I want my boyfriend to do the same :rolleyes:

Most people won't criticise someone's appearance by asking him, "What's wrong with your __?" or by saying, "You would look so much better if you just ____".

What makes them think that asking a significant other is any less indelicate?

Rolling the eyes here.

[DavidN]

I am genuinely saddened to hear that this happened, Medyssa, and if a similar thing happened to me, and I woke up in the hospital with my hair and beard gone, I would be VERY distressed.

[mellie]

That is distressing! Wow!

Both of my male coworkers cut their very long "headbanger" hair to "corporate" short in the last few years. They said they were sick of being treated differently (i.e. unkindly).

[rhubarbarin]

My boyfriend's eyebrows meet at the middle, then have a party. I actually like it, but nobody seems to believe me I've got several people saying to me "he is handsome, if only he whould shave/pluck between the eyebrows//can't you convince him to shave/pluck//I don't like that, why doesn't he shave it?" I always answered that I actually like it and would never suggest anything of the sort, only to be awarded an incredulous look. It annoyed me a little bit, but now I realize it is as rude as being told why don't I ask him to cut his hair (that would certainly grant an explosive reaction from me ) I know those people were not trying to be rude, but yeah they also can't fathom why I would like not a warrior look, but a caveman look That I pluck my eyebrows to an inch (correction: 1⁄32 of an inch ) of their life, doesn't mean I want my boyfriend to do the same

My boyfriend has a unibrow too, and yes, I think it's cute! And I get the same comments, to which I always respond, in an offended tone, 'I would never pressure him to change anything about his appearence. Besides, I like it'. He's been getting comments about it all his life, poor thing.

Discrimination for so many things is a part of everyone's life. I hope someday that changes, but I think it's mostly human nature. There's a great fear and anger in many people towards others who are different than them.

Personally I think HAIR is just the stupidest thing to make a huge deal about, and try to control. It grows on your head, that means all of us should be able to do whatever we want with it, just like any other part of the body.

[Naluin]

DBF did go through a phase of growing out his hair and he made it to chin-length before he caved and finally got that haircut that I'm sure everyone and their mom was telling him to get. I think the final straw was the afternoon we spent at the mall, where we were addressed as "ladies" on more than one occasion, despite the fact that my boyfriend had not shaved in a few days.

I think the time I was most devastated by somebody else's haircut was when a guy who I went to both high school and middle school with. The entire time I had gone to school with him, he had long hair... and tattoos and multiple piercings. At the time, I thought it was really cool that he would go his own way at an age where it seems that everyone is trying to be/look the same.

Then one day, in his senior year, he showed up with his hair cut really short... and in khaki pants. I was upset, but I realized that he probably didn't think that he would read well for interviews and whatnot with his former appearance. I always thought that was very unfair.

I don't know why people have a bias against men with long hair and/or facial hair. As long as things are clean and cared for, why does it matter?

[Alaskanheart]

I cant tell if your saying the hair shaving incident was done at the hospital, or if it was a product of a hate crime.Either way it is very sad. Possibly if it was done at the hospital to get rid of lice , it was because he was homeless rather than just being a man. I'm sad by that.

Ive never really thought of men with super-long hair being warrior like. I grew up in the 80's so when I think of long hair on men I also think of spandex and eyeliner.lol.

Ive asked my husband if he would grow his hair a bit longer, because I saw a picture of him with his hair a few inches past his ears, not quite his chin. He said in his business , it is acceptable to be "clean cut" especially in our area, where most of his business comes from retired and elderly people(its a Buick, Pontiac, Gmc, dealership).My husbands a very hard worker, and puts high priority on taking care of his family. So I think in that aspect his conformity is a sign of strength ,and love for me and the kids .I respect him for that.

My best friend (a women) is covered in tattoos except her face and neck.She is attractive and feminine. Most of the comments she gets are positive.People who don't like it stay away from her and don't say anything , maybe because it is intimidating, Her husband is a tattoo artist, thats just what they do, unfortunately she has a difficult time getting a job, and her husband can only get construction.Sometimes they and their 4 kids suffer badly because of their tattoos, the sad fact of our society is that it takes money to at least have shelter and food.They are still very good people.

ETA:My brother came home from Iraq last Feburary, after serving for 4 years, and he has grown his hair and beard to a marvelous long shag. I think he deserves respect no matter how long his hair gets, and so does everyone else.

[Ohio Sky]

I dont have a whole lot to add, just wanted to say that some of these stories are pretty sad. I wish everyone would just mind their own damn business and stop worrying about what everyone else does.

My BF has shaggy hair, not because hes trying to grow or anything, just becasue hes lazy. He usually sports a goatee about 3-4 inches long, 1/2 an inch over the rest of his face because hes too lazy to shave, and his hair gets close to his shoulders usually because he doesnt feel like getting it cut until its long enough to be tied into a ponytail and thats too girly for him. Its more of a caveman look than a warrior look, but he never gets any comments on it. I think people are too startled by his personality to worry about what he looks like, honestly.

[Alaskanheart]

My BF has shaggy hair, not because hes trying to grow or anything, just becasue hes lazy. He usually sports a goatee about 3-4 inches long, 1/2 an inch over the rest of his face because hes too lazy to shave, and his hair gets close to his shoulders usually because he doesnt feel like getting it cut until its long enough to be tied into a ponytail and thats too girly for him. Its more of a caveman look than a warrior look, but he never gets any comments on it. I think people are too startled by his personality to worry about what he looks like, honestly.

Sounds like my brother.Caveman is a good description.I think his thing is 1/2 rebellion and half lazziness from his PTS disorder.

I agree with your above statement too. People can be so judgemental and mean not to mention nosey. Maybe if people havent always been so judgemental towards me, before they get to know me, I wouldnt have half the insecurities I do now.By the way Ohio Sky, Ive read some of your posts, I think we have alot in common:)

[Aisha25]

I love this very hairy look.The more hair the better I say on a man of course.Looks very manly masculine to have big beard and lots of hair:D.Now back to topic I dont think they had a right to cut this man hairs.That should be his choice if he wanted them cut.If it was for emergency then yes but not just because they think it looks dirty.

[domonic_uk]

I am sure long hair has cost me some jobs in the past, but its funny that I always find other work in my industry which is electrical. I recently moved into the office after a long time on the tools and have to start wearing a shirt after 17 years of not having to. I noticed that the fashion is not to wear a tie anymore so to appear a bit dareing and funky, as I already don't conform to the normal view I decide to wear a tie. Therefore I am more tradtionaly dressed for the office than others but not my hair style.

[Alun]

For years I actually wore a tie when I didn't have to, but I think I was compensating for the hair. I don't bother to wear a tie to work anymore, except if there is going to be a client there or around Christmas just to wear one of my Xmas ties.

I think it is common to think that you are doing a homeless guy a favour by cutting his hair and shaving his beard, because normally he can't afford to have it done, but it doesn't take any account of what the person normally looks like. It's hard to know if there was any medical reason in this case, but you can be very sure that they would try very hard to avoid shaving a woman's head, and sadly hardly think twice with a man.

Discrimination is both real and stupid, but there are good jobs for long haired guys, they just take longer to find. The most important thing is to have marketable skills, certificates, degrees and/or licences, because it is those who have none of the above who get the brunt of discrimination, as they are too easily replaced by another unqualified guy who happens to have a shorn head and no identifying marks.

[Alaskanheart]

Your hair is amazing Alun. I agree There is alot of careers for men with long hair, and if hair is clean and well kept, I don't see why it would matter.My husband does the only thing he knows,since he was 18 and has climbed the latter from parts driver, to Parts/Service manager,if he didn't work in his field our income would be at least 1/2 of what it is now.I think if we lived in an area with not so many wealthy elderly people, he could be a bit less "professional" looking, maybe someday we will move back to Alaska.If he did grow his hair, I doubt he'd get fired, he doubled the income for his departments every other year since he started there 5years ago. they'd be crazy to do that. but I bet he'd loose customers, and unfortunately he makes the majority of his money off of net-profit, and commission.

If I was asked to cut my hair short , or buzzed for a job, I would be throughly pissed, and maybe even feel violated. This double standard is ridiculous.Whats the big deal anyway, do they assume every man with long hair is listening to the beatles and tripping on acid while at work?lol

I think if it was a homeless women they wouldn't have shaved her hair, but I don't think they would have shaved the mans hair had he not been homeless.

[Elenna]

That is another thing I do not understand. And I see this attitude often and even "women's magazine's" offer tips as to how to "change" your SO! :confused: Instead of looking for the right person, you have to go out, seek a random individual and then mold them to your convenience??

When a woman marries a man, supposably they cherish that person. It really upsets me to read about "altering" your soul mate.

[Mangachan]

When a woman marries a man, supposably they cherish that person. It really upsets me to read about "altering" your soul mate.

Especially if they looked like that when you met the person.

People can be really hard on men with long hair. As a matter of fact, my father told me not to ever date/marry a man with hair unless it was shaved.:rolleyes:

[Alun]

Your hair is amazing Alun. I agree There is alot of careers for men with long hair, and if hair is clean and well kept, I don't see why it would matter.My husband does the only thing he knows,since he was 18 and has climbed the latter from parts driver, to Parts/Service manager,if he didn't work in his field our income would be at least 1/2 of what it is now.I think if we lived in an area with not so many wealthy elderly people, he could be a bit less "professional" looking, maybe someday we will move back to Alaska.If he did grow his hair, I doubt he'd get fired, he doubled the income for his departments every other year since he started there 5years ago. they'd be crazy to do that. but I bet he'd loose customers, and unfortunately he makes the majority of his money off of net-profit, and commission.

If I was asked to cut my hair short , or buzzed for a job, I would be throughly pissed, and maybe even feel violated. This double standard is ridiculous.Whats the big deal anyway, do they assume every man with long hair is listening to the beatles and tripping on acid while at work?lol

I think if it was a homeless women they wouldn't have shaved her hair, but I don't think they would have shaved the mans hair had he not been homeless.

Thanks for the hair compliment.

Listening to the Beatles? I think even at the time they were well loved by people of all ages, so I don't think that would matter.

Maybe it's the drug thing? Or maybe the subversive anti-establishment angle?

I do agree that being both male and homeless makes someone a target for a haircut in the eyes of certain 'do-gooders'. Of course, if he had a haircut he wouldn't be homeless and unemployed...yeah, right!

[Alaskanheart]

Thanks for the hair compliment.

Listening to the Beatles? I think even at the time they were well loved by people of all ages, so I don't think that would matter.

Maybe it's the drug thing? Or maybe the subversive anti-establishment angle?



Hehe, yeah the Beatles analogy was meant to add more description to my joke, plus I just watched a documentary about hallucinogenic drugs (TLC), and John Lennon, and Paul McCarthy were mentioned about a dozen times, so it was fresh in my mind:D. I'm a big Beatles fan, and I'm not into drugs,I was just attempting to be funny. I have a dry sarcastic sense of humor.I agree its more of the anti establishment/drug/rebellion thing that people associate with long haired men, especially if they lived during the hippy movement as they call it.