Prejudice for people with long hair in/at work.

[Lia_Vaumont]

I've been job-hunting recently, because my job as a telemarketer at the Philippine American Life Insurance Co., sucks. We're on a commission only basis and well... it pays me practically nothing for all my effort. So... off I went on a job hunt. What I've noticed is that everywhere I go, I get judged at because of my long hair. It's not even that long yet... not as long as I'd have it. It's still below my shoulder blades, and I keep it tied up (or in an up-do) whenever I'm applying for a job. Well, here it is---they won't hire me because I have long hair and I won't cut it for them. I would go on to explain to them that having long hair doesn't impede a person's performance or one's respectability, but they just won't get it! This is just one more reason why I hate being stuck in this shell... being socially ostracized just because you have long hair... and you happen to be a dude on the outside! Of course, I know that some people can be very judgmental on a first-impressions basis, and well, that's how the world works most of the time. Their paradigm on 'neatness' 'formality' and all of those other things are, I think, too over-rated and highly stressed as focal points for defining human character. Where am I getting at with this? I believe the reason why people won't hire me is because it goes against their grain to find a respectful and well-mannered long haired male. (Yes, male. Since as of this moment, I'm still stuck in the body of one...) The corporate zombies here have been programmed to equate skill, honesty, and all the other virtues of what a good work-person should be by their appearance, their clothing, etc. Whereas if they find people with really long hair (especially in males) or piercings, or tattoos, they immediately judge that person and reduce that person down a notch. That just isn't right. I mean, if women are allowed to have short haircuts at work, if they're allowed to wear pants at work, etc., shouldn't males be allowed the same privileges albeit in an opposite way? And for another thing, people in pin-striped suits and sharp ties are just as likely to be snakes in the grass as the long-haired hobo, with more of a chance of being a real snake than the latter. As such, my case is different, since I am born as a male but identify with an opposite gender---, and my hair is a vestige of my femininity, (the only part of it at the moment that I can freely but secretly express) but I speak for all long haired dudes who were dissed by their interviewers for being 'hippies' and 'pot-smokers' with nary any evidence to prove those claims. I believe that it's sexist, that kind of prejudice. It seems we place too much stock on appearances that we oftentimes forget the age old adage: 'Judge not that ye not be judged in like'. Has anyone of you experienced this atrocity as well?

[tralalalara]

preach it!

I have a friend who recently cut his hip-length hair in order to get a job. His choices were chopping or homelessness, which i think is ludicrous.

[walterSCAN]

Ugh. I'm so sorry this is happening to you... I am totally agreed on the over-prevalence of equating formality of appearance/ adherence to social norms physically, especially in the job market. They should be looking at skill, performance, and responsibility-- NOT what you look like. It disgusts me that someone might think I am less valuable as a person because I make choices about my appearance that not everyone makes.

I don't really have much to add here-- just hugs!:grouphug:

[Lia_Vaumont]

preach it!

I have a friend who recently cut his hip-length hair in order to get a job. His choices were chopping or homelessness, which i think is ludicrous.
Yes indeed! It is ludicrous. People should have the right to be themselves, and not be made into corporate machines or worse yet... face the rest of their lives 'conforming' as their true selves shrivel up and die. We say NO to Zombies! We say YES to Freedom of Self-expression! :)


Ugh. I'm so sorry this is happening to you... I am totally agreed on the over-prevalence of equating formality of appearance/ adherence to social norms physically, especially in the job market. They should be looking at skill, performance, and responsibility-- NOT what you look like. It disgusts me that someone might think I am less valuable as a person because I make choices about my appearance that not everyone makes.

I don't really have much to add here-- just hugs!:grouphug:
Thank you so much. I have already written a letter to the Department of Labor and Employment regarding the prevalence of this prejudiced opinion against people---not only long haired men, but transsexuals, femme-homosexuals, and every underdog who just doesn't want to be zombified by a highly judgmental society. They really should be looking at skills and capabilities. Amen sister! :heart: :grouphug:

:rockerdud: Fight the power! Lol. :D

[contradiction]

Are you sure you are being discriminated against because of your long hair? That is a pretty harsh accusation to make. Have interviewers said to you, "You look like a hippie or a pot smoker, and we won't hire you because of it?" If you are keeping your hair neat or in an updo, I don't see this happening. You are probably not the only person applying for jobs who may be a little 'unconventional' looking.

I understand it is very frusterating looking for work, I myself was out of work recently for two months. The economy is very bad everywhere right now and I would guess that is the main reason you are having trouble finding work, not because of your long hair. How long have you been searching for jobs?

You refer to potential employers as 'corporate zombies'. Do you really expect to find work if you're already prejudging or insulting potential employers? I think more important than appearance, is attitude.

I am sorry you are having trouble finding work, I know it's very frusterating and disheartening.

[Lia_Vaumont]

Are you sure you are being discriminated against because of your long hair? That is a pretty harsh accusation to make. Have interviewers said to you, "You look like a hippie or a pot smoker, and we won't hire you because of it?" If you are keeping your hair neat or in an updo, I don't see this happening. You are probably not the only person applying for jobs who may be a little 'unconventional' looking.

I understand it is very frusterating looking for work, I myself was out of work recently for two months. The economy is very bad everywhere right now and I would guess that is the main reason you are having trouble finding work, not because of your long hair. How long have you been searching for jobs?

You refer to potential employers as 'corporate zombies'. Do you really expect to find work if you're already prejudging or insulting potential employers? I think more important than appearance, is attitude.

I am sorry you are having trouble finding work, I know it's very frusterating and disheartening.
Yes, I am. Nobody here, when applying/working for fast-food chains, restaurants, or cafe's, has long hair. It's been the standard that if you look like a dude, sound like a dude, then act like one, be like one, dress like one. I've thought about other things why they wouldn't hire, but nothing fit except prejudice. I've thought about it for a long time too, and no matter how I view the angles of the scenarios it always ended up the same---not hiring because of the hair, the unconventional (read: un-fashionable. I dress in 2nd hand clothes, since they're the only ones I can afford) appearance. I have the skills, the experience to boot, but the prejudice of people gets in the way of good work. I've been bashed time and again for being unconventional, and I just don't see why we need to base our understanding of a person so loosely...

I agree that the economy is bad, and I think from where you are it might be really bad with the whole recession and all. Well, the standard of application here is the submission of a resume', and then the interview. As for the economy lessening the prospects of jobs, it doesn't seem to be the case here, so long as you're not picky. I myself am not picky. I've been looking for new employment for oh... 3 months now. I'm actually working now, but it doesn't pay well, and I really need to find a stable source of income. People in the Philippines are highly prejudiced, and I speak of that from experience. ^_^

I agree with you, attitude is indeed important. I have a good attitude. I wouldn't have been employee of the month at the Internet Caffe that I used to work at if I didn't deserve it... I think... lol. :) (I hope you don't mind if I keep this lighthearted. I don't want to piss people off, and I might be beginning to sound like I'm proselytizing, which I'm not. ^_^ )

Hey, not everyone is a 'corporate zombie'. Some are, but I don't judge them either. That's their take in life. If it does sound like I am judging, I can do nothing else but plead guilty, and hope to redress it somehow. Being human, I can't claim to be perfect. I actually know a lot of good people who're 'corporates'. They're cool cause their open-minded, so I'm really fortunate to have gotten to know them. I just wish everyone were like that. I've tried to go to them for work, but alas, they're fully booked at the moment...

Hey, no hard feelings? I'd like to apologize if anything I've written here sounded off or rude. I don't intend to spark any argument, okay? :) I wish you all the best. I hope you find work soon too. :D Yeah... it can be really frustrating. But, so long as we keep a positive attitude, we'll pull through. ^_^

[Natalia]

Im sorry this is happening to you :flowers: . I dotn see why hair is such a problem. My bother hasnt had hair shorter than about APL untill very recently and that was just an experiment as i started growingit back the day he cut it and he hasnt had any troubl egetting a job. The again he mostly works in bars, gyms, sprts medicine and well... he is damn hot lol so i think that helps is those fields :p. The longest he has had it was about waist and he was job hunting then and didnt mention having any issue. I hope you can find something soon where they dont judge you for your appearance.

[RavennaNight]

Aaah the corporate zombie. Those are the folks who are the job even on their days off. I work for a corporation, and their dress code and appearance standards are a bit old fashioned. But at the end of the day it's the compromise I make to have the freedom to be who I am when I'm not there. Back to topic:

I agree wholly about not being judged by appearance. I have to struggle day after day reconsiling those old fashioned anti-piercing and tattoo policies at my job. Pressure is placed on me to send home the people who expose them, and that's hard because folks have them on wrists. The day will be soon where these policies can no longer be upheld because of the sheer volume of pierced and tattooed folks. I would hire a well-qualified long haired guy in a heartbeat, and at least my Co has no hair policy except that it must be of a natural color. Which I think is ludicrous, too. The day will come when the next generation is in charge and the old fogies are dead and gone and can no longer judge. It's just like racism, as we move through generations we will move further and progress and old ideas will literally DIE.

I recently got wind of something a former colleague said about me when I was promoted. "Really? Ravenna? Her hair is way too long for being a store manager. She has to wrap her bun around more than once and it's jet black you can tell it's not her natural color. Women in the corporate world succeed with shorter hair." I was completely floored because this was coming from a dude, and he didn't know me from a hole in the head and never even had a conversation with me. Well I guess it didn't matter because the higher ups sure didn't care when they promoted me. But this opinion seems to be prevalent about women as well.:(

Hugs to you, stay true to who you are. There is a niche for everone.

[Kris Dove]

I'm sorry to hear you're in this situation.:( Hope you find an open-minded employer soon.

I've never had any issue with my hair being long as I'm female and it's only been around BSL-waist at it's longest when I started working, but I think younger women especially can experience prejudice for having very short hair- there's that whole assumption that they're either a lesbian or have lost hair due to illness, as I was told when I chopped mine short.

I've had to remove piercings(still have my nose one as it's old and can be left out for a long time, but my eyebrow and labret healed up after the retainers kept falling out! :() and have to keep my tattoos covered(I have 5 including an ankle one so I can't wear skirts unless I wear opaque tights, which sucks in the summer). My fiance has experienced prejudices due to his beard- not only does he love having a beard but shaving irritates his eczema!)

I don't see what difference these things make to anyone's ability to do their job.

[lynlora]

You refer to potential employers as 'corporate zombies'. Do you really expect to find work if you're already prejudging or insulting potential employers? I think more important than appearance, is attitude.


That is exactly what they are doing to him.

[may1em]

That sounds like a really tough spot to be in - I hope you can find work soon.

You might want to edit the name of your current employer out of your post, though, because someone could identify you from that - and nobody wants to hire someone who bashes their employers on the Internet. Don't give people a real reason to keep you from jobs.

[Fiferstone]

Hey Lia, took a quick peek at your profile before I shot my mouth off, and couldn't figure it out definitively from your profile information, so my apologies upfront if my assumptions are wrong. If you are a biological male, do NOT give in to the pressure to cut your hair off! My husband was out of work for 11 months in 2008 (laid off from a job he'd had for 15 years). He has almost-waist length salt and pepper coarse grey hair which he keeps neatly tied back. His work is office/clerical in nature (no heavy lifting, no machinery and no safety issue with his hairstyle). He ultimately got a job (15 minutes away from home :)) and he continues to have the long ponytail, which he wears with dress slacks and the "collar of servitude" as he likes to call it (translation: a necktie).

Work is out there for you, and, just in general, it's typically NOT a good idea to mention where you currently are, because you don't want where you currently are to get wind that you're looking for a new situation, right?

Good luck to you. :blossom:

[Lorien]

Over here if such a thing happened you would go to the union for that particular mode of employment and seek justice. It's absolutely backward and I'm not sure it's even legal. At elast here they can't do that, so there definitely must be something you can do and definitely not cutting your hair.

[jera]

No employer ever asked me to cut my hair for a job, but I once said I kept my hair long for religious reasons. :o This is sort of a lie in my case. The religion I adhere to is me ! But it shuts everyone up.

If you say you keep your hair long for religious reasons, you cannot, legally, be forced to cut it because it would be a violation of your constitutional rights. :)

[-simply Venus-]

Messed up. One reason why I am not getting my eyebrow pierced and dyeing my hair blue is so that I can get a job. Even though I really want both!

I sorta see what they are thinking, though. Most guy's with long hair I've seen are dirty, and their hair is all icky, and they are potheads. But that doesn't mean everyone is. People like to stereotype. >>

If I ever have to interview someone for a job, I wouldn't judge them on piercings/tattoos/hair. As long as they qualify and seem like a decent person, a tattoo won't change my mind.

[Lia_Vaumont]

Aaah the corporate zombie. Those are the folks who are the job even on their days off. I work for a corporation, and their dress code and appearance standards are a bit old fashioned. But at the end of the day it's the compromise I make to have the freedom to be who I am when I'm not there. Back to topic:

I agree wholly about not being judged by appearance. I have to struggle day after day reconsiling those old fashioned anti-piercing and tattoo policies at my job. Pressure is placed on me to send home the people who expose them, and that's hard because folks have them on wrists. The day will be soon where these policies can no longer be upheld because of the sheer volume of pierced and tattooed folks. I would hire a well-qualified long haired guy in a heartbeat, and at least my Co has no hair policy except that it must be of a natural color. Which I think is ludicrous, too. The day will come when the next generation is in charge and the old fogies are dead and gone and can no longer judge. It's just like racism, as we move through generations we will move further and progress and old ideas will literally DIE.

I recently got wind of something a former colleague said about me when I was promoted. "Really? Ravenna? Her hair is way too long for being a store manager. She has to wrap her bun around more than once and it's jet black you can tell it's not her natural color. Women in the corporate world succeed with shorter hair." I was completely floored because this was coming from a dude, and he didn't know me from a hole in the head and never even had a conversation with me. Well I guess it didn't matter because the higher ups sure didn't care when they promoted me. But this opinion seems to be prevalent about women as well.:(

Hugs to you, stay true to who you are. There is a niche for everone.
I agree that it will die eventually, but in this backward country of mine, if no one fights to end it, it will just worsen. I believe it must be hard for you to send people away just because of piercings and tattoos, not taking into account their skills.

Miss Ravenna (oh my gods, I love your name! :) ) that person who said those hateful things doesn't deserve to be heeded. You were the one who got promoted, not him, so that in of itself is proof that his assumptions are ill-based. Please don't give up the good fight. And thank you. ^_^


No employer ever asked me to cut my hair for a job, but I once said I kept my hair long for religious reasons. :o This is sort of a lie in my case. The religion I adhere to is me ! But it shuts everyone up.

If you say you keep your hair long for religious reasons, you cannot, legally, be forced to cut it because it would be a violation of your constitutional rights.
That's what I use for an excuse really, since I'm sure I'd only get death-stares if say what my hair really meant for me. Still, they would insist, since of course, I am literally trapped in the wrong body... for now, I have to be content with odd jobs like article writing and tutorials. Buy it's okay. I manage. ^_^ I just need a stable source of income. Constitution rights here in this country suck I'm afraid. That's why I've decided to write to the Department of Labour and voice out my complaint. Oh, and thank you so much for adding me to your friend's list! :D


Hey Lia, took a quick peek at your profile before I shot my mouth off, and couldn't figure it out definitively from your profile information, so my apologies upfront if my assumptions are wrong. If you are a biological male, do NOT give in to the pressure to cut your hair off! My husband was out of work for 11 months in 2008 (laid off from a job he'd had for 15 years). He has almost-waist length salt and pepper coarse grey hair which he keeps neatly tied back. His work is office/clerical in nature (no heavy lifting, no machinery and no safety issue with his hairstyle). He ultimately got a job (15 minutes away from home ) and he continues to have the long ponytail, which he wears with dress slacks and the "collar of servitude" as he likes to call it (translation: a necktie).

Work is out there for you, and, just in general, it's typically NOT a good idea to mention where you currently are, because you don't want where you currently are to get wind that you're looking for a new situation, right?

Good luck to you. :blossom:
Your husband must look so cool. Yes, I am. But I don't think I can live with being one for good. Moving on, I sooo agree with your husband's moniker for the tie (and I find it funny), although I like to dress formally at times. We're all such paradoxes yes? Heheh. :)


Messed up. One reason why I am not getting my eyebrow pierced and dyeing my hair blue is so that I can get a job. Even though I really want both!

I sorta see what they are thinking, though. Most guy's with long hair I've seen are dirty, and their hair is all icky, and they are potheads. But that doesn't mean everyone is. People like to stereotype. >>

If I ever have to interview someone for a job, I wouldn't judge them on piercings/tattoos/hair. As long as they qualify and seem like a decent person, a tattoo won't change my mind.
Exactly. We shouldn't be placed into stereotypes. I hope you find a job wherein you can get your hair dyed and your ear pierced. I wish you all the best! :)


Over here if such a thing happened you would go to the union for that particular mode of employment and seek justice. It's absolutely backward and I'm not sure it's even legal. At elast here they can't do that, so there definitely must be something you can do and definitely not cutting your hair.
I've written to the Department of Labour. This just isn't right. There was this one guy who wanted to apply for a Pizza Hut store who wasn't accepted because he had a beard. I've seen and heard of a lot of other reasons why good people aren't hired for petty reasons, and I strongly feel that it should stop. Just three months ago, a Muslim lady friend of mine wasn't hired by the call-center agency I was working for then because 'she doesn't speak English that well'. I later found out that the real reason why she wasn't hired was because she was an Orthodox type of Muslim who had to pray a set number of times a day, and the managers said it would interfere with her efficacy at work. And now this, not being hired because I refuse to cut my hair? It's about time someone spoke out to those monkey-suited people that they've taken their prejudice far enough. We (our people) try to imitate American laws, but all we end up doing is making a farce of it ourselves... *sigh*

P. S. I love your avatar and name! :)


That is exactly what they are doing to him.
Please, I identify with the feminine gender. Could you please refer to me as 'her' if you don't mind? Thanks so much. :)


That sounds like a really tough spot to be in - I hope you can find work soon.

You might want to edit the name of your current employer out of your post, though, because someone could identify you from that - and nobody wants to hire someone who bashes their employers on the Internet. Don't give people a real reason to keep you from jobs.
Um... I haven't put the name of my employer here. The company name yes, but they wouldn't know. Thank you for the advice though. :)

[Rhiannon7]

In my opinion there will always be some kind of prejudice at a job for any reason. from how you dress, to the color of your skin to your piercings or tattoos, to your weight, to wearing special effects contacts, to something as simple as a genetic defect (some call it that, i call it nature and beautiful.) mismatched colored eyes. I had a friend in university who had a big problem finding a job in her field because of her mismatched eyes. her eyes were truly unusual, one pale blue, and i mean pale, almost colorless and one almost black. but to me they were beautiful. she was an albino (at least that is what her doctor told her.) but i have never understood how an albino can have golden blonde hair. (i thought albino's were pale skinned, almost white haired people with beautifully strange eye color. ) but her strange eyes were a genetic defect. (according to her doctor.) she spent 3 years searching for a job in the carreer she chose ( Accounting ) she was always turned down, and was even told a couple of times that she did not get the job because of her eyes. (one of the interviewers even stopped the interview after 10 mins. because he said she freaked him out with those eyes.) so she ended up having to wear contact lenses. that to me was unfair.

I've had some trouble of my own finding a job that pays well because i am a rubenesque woman and older than what the job market has been looking for. (in my small town employers are a bit old fashioned and seek women under 30 who are almost model thin and tall. they even advertize the job as, receptionist. 5 foot 7, size 2-7, under 25 years old. not very politically correct, but they get away with it. but i found a good job and i like it alot. my job is quite open minded, some of my co-workers have very long hair (for men.) and i love to see their long, loose hair as they walk. one of them is a good friend of mine and knows i love his hip length hair, first time i met him he had it loose and i actually asked him if i could touch his hair and praised him on letting it grow so long and so healthy. so every time he walks by my cubicle he tosses his hair across my face, i smile and turn to say hi. also one of my co-workers (just got promoted to supervisor.) wears these amazingly natural looking cat eye contacts, emerald green with a yellowish red pupil. at times it freaks me out but i love how they look.

So i understand how angry and tired you might be of such prejudice, but we just have to breathe deeply, smile and walk away praying that these people will one day get a clue and understand diversity is beautiful and can be quite helpful in some job markets.

[Lia_Vaumont]

In my opinion there will always be some kind of prejudice at a job for any reason. from how you dress, to the color of your skin to your piercings or tattoos, to your weight, to wearing special effects contacts, to something as simple as a genetic defect (some call it that, i call it nature and beautiful.) mismatched colored eyes. I had a friend in university who had a big problem finding a job in her field because of her mismatched eyes. her eyes were truly unusual, one pale blue, and i mean pale, almost colorless and one almost black. but to me they were beautiful. she was an albino (at least that is what her doctor told her.) but i have never understood how an albino can have golden blonde hair. (i thought albino's were pale skinned, almost white haired people with beautifully strange eye color. ) but her strange eyes were a genetic defect. (according to her doctor.) she spent 3 years searching for a job in the carreer she chose ( Accounting ) she was always turned down, and was even told a couple of times that she did not get the job because of her eyes. (one of the interviewers even stopped the interview after 10 mins. because he said she freaked him out with those eyes.) so she ended up having to wear contact lenses. that to me was unfair.

I've had some trouble of my own finding a job that pays well because i am a rubenesque woman and older than what the job market has been looking for. (in my small town employers are a bit old fashioned and seek women under 30 who are almost model thin and tall. they even advertize the job as, receptionist. 5 foot 7, size 2-7, under 25 years old. not very politically correct, but they get away with it. but i found a good job and i like it alot. my job is quite open minded, some of my co-workers have very long hair (for men.) and i love to see their long, loose hair as they walk. one of them is a good friend of mine and knows i love his hip length hair, first time i met him he had it loose and i actually asked him if i could touch his hair and praised him on letting it grow so long and so healthy. so every time he walks by my cubicle he tosses his hair across my face, i smile and turn to say hi. also one of my co-workers (just got promoted to supervisor.) wears these amazingly natural looking cat eye contacts, emerald green with a yellowish red pupil. at times it freaks me out but i love how they look.

So i understand how angry and tired you might be of such prejudice, but we just have to breathe deeply, smile and walk away praying that these people will one day get a clue and understand diversity is beautiful and can be quite helpful in some job markets.
Thank you so much for that inspiring piece of advice! Just a question though... aren't albino people supposed to have pale skin, red pupils, and white hair? (I think it's beautiful too. :D ) There really should be something done to stop prejudice, but somehow, I guess people are programmed to be prejudiced... I don't know, maybe I'm just viewing it negatively... but one can't place much stock in humanity especially if you've studied all the atrocities they did in the past and still continue to do now. One can only hope, and work for the best yes? The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is if people lose the will to do anything to stop it. I'll remember what you said in your last line. Thank you so much! :)

[funnyface]

Just wanted to add my own experience!

I'm a teacher and was told very early on in my training that I shouldn't wear my hair down for work as it doesn't look proffessional. Baring in mind that at this point my hair was only just shoulder length, and my natural hair colour etc so why should wearing it down be an issue? I work with teenagers, so no hair pulling problems, and I teach English, so no health and safety PE or technology class catastrophes! What were they thinking??

I have gone on to find that this was just the opinion of ONE individual. I imagine she told me this for some kind of power trip, to insinuate SHE was more proffessional than ME because she tied her hair up. People think and do things for all kinds of crazy reasons, and I am now in a school where there is no issue with hair up, down, pink, red, whatever.

I really hope you find an employment with an open minded establishment that value you for what you can offer, not judge you based on how long you leave between hair trims!

[Fiferstone]

Hi Lia:

Thanks, I'm glad my comments helped. From your other replies it seems to me that you're transgendered (forgive me if that's a wrong impression on my part). I'd ask the potential employer what the dress code is for females, because that is what you are (never mind the biology thing), and I'd be very surprised if the dress code for females stipuated a particular hair length, since long hair is traditionally an acceptable hair style option for women, correct? Can they really discriminate against you if you live as a female, and are consistent with female norms for professional attire in your choice of dress/hair style? I too have an issue with hair being mandated by a dress code, because hair is a body part, not an article of clothing. Unless one wears a wig, one cannot remove one's hair at the end of the day, the way one can remove a uniform or a business suit. Are you going to the interviews dressed as a male? Perhaps now it's time to dress as a female if indeed you are female and your goal is to live as a female.

Good luck to you, I hope it works out for you. Making a transition if you are born with a certain biology, but are instead another gender is never easy.

[Benjamin_T]

I've came across many discussions concerning this issue, and yeah, it's certainly very unfortunate that we (long hair guys) will be facing such an awkward problem in job applications..

In my humble opinion, just remain faithful to your long hair. (Think of yourself already as a devoted long hair guy.) Never cut it for the job, because it is certainly a big sacrifice if you do, which you might end up regretting.

If I'm in such a situation, I'll be keeping my hair no matter what. :)

P.S., if I'm not mistaken, typically, jobs that require direct dealing (face to face) interaction with customers/clients (or as a company representative) these positions tend to be particularly strict on the appearance, dress code & grooming stuffs.. On the other hand, jobs where you'll be sitting in front of the computer or desk in the back of the office, or hidden away in a laboratory (away from the front line) would not tend to be that particular (or at all) about all this appearance issues..

Anyway, hair is always nicer long than short, and long hair people are certainly better looking. :cool:

Regards.

[bte]

No employer ever asked me to cut my hair for a job, but I once said I kept my hair long for religious reasons. :o This is sort of a lie in my case. The religion I adhere to is me ! But it shuts everyone up.

If you say you keep your hair long for religious reasons, you cannot, legally, be forced to cut it because it would be a violation of your constitutional rights. :)
The way to express it is to day that you have long hair because of your beliefs. That will be assumed to be religious.

[Armelle]

Thank you so much for that inspiring piece of advice! Just a question though... aren't albino people supposed to have pale skin, red pupils, and white hair? (I think it's beautiful too. )

Whee! Let's follow THIS train track! :D

(source: ex-boyfriend who suffers from albinism) Albinos can have white hair, super pale skin, and pale eyes. They are not necessarily the palest skinned people you will see. White hair is very difficult to keep white, yellowing can be a problem. There is such a thing as ocular albinism where only the eyes have lost pigment.

Whee! Now back to your regular thread.

Humans are often very prone to some type of prejudicial thinking. Some are more obvious such as race, ethnicity, size, and gender. Others are more insidious such as discrimination due to age.

Lia, I'm wondering...would it be possible for you to apply for a name change? I don't know if this is possible in the Philippines. If you were to choose a name you are more comfortable using, and dressed as you see fit, perhaps the employers wouldn't demand you cut your hair (or change anything else).

[Lia_Vaumont]

Whee! Let's follow THIS train track! :D

(source: ex-boyfriend who suffers from albinism) Albinos can have white hair, super pale skin, and pale eyes. They are not necessarily the palest skinned people you will see. White hair is very difficult to keep white, yellowing can be a problem. There is such a thing as ocular albinism where only the eyes have lost pigment.

Whee! Now back to your regular thread.

Humans are often very prone to some type of prejudicial thinking. Some are more obvious such as race, ethnicity, size, and gender. Others are more insidious such as discrimination due to age.

Lia, I'm wondering...would it be possible for you to apply for a name change? I don't know if this is possible in the Philippines. If you were to choose a name you are more comfortable using, and dressed as you see fit, perhaps the employers wouldn't demand you cut your hair (or change anything else).
It's impossible to do so here in the Philippines, because whatever LGTB rights that were suggested got dipped into kerosene, thrown into the ditch, and burnt to nothing. We're still working on trying to make the government see that LGTB people aren't things who don't deserve rights. Unless I find a way to immigrate to the U.S. or some other country, I won't have a chance to transition, much less lead a full and happy life. Here, even if I change my name, dress as I feel I should, they'd still look at me like an abominable creature, like they do transvestites and some transsexuals here. On a side-note, some gays here in the Philippines dress like women but aren't really transsexuals (they too are still under prejudice). I'm still confused on that regard, but maybe that's just their thing... ^_^

The only kind of work available to the LGTB here would be salons and parlors, or dance-clubs, but I think that's just limiting their talents. We've got more in us than just that...

Now to the albino train track: Wow... new information to docket into my Memory Palace! :D Thank you... ^_^


I've came across many discussions concerning this issue, and yeah, it's certainly very unfortunate that we (long hair guys) will be facing such an awkward problem in job applications..

In my humble opinion, just remain faithful to your long hair. (Think of yourself already as a devoted long hair guy.) Never cut it for the job, because it is certainly a big sacrifice if you do, which you might end up regretting.

If I'm in such a situation, I'll be keeping my hair no matter what. :)

P.S., if I'm not mistaken, typically, jobs that require direct dealing (face to face) interaction with customers/clients (or as a company representative) these positions tend to be particularly strict on the appearance, dress code & grooming stuffs.. On the other hand, jobs where you'll be sitting in front of the computer or desk in the back of the office, or hidden away in a laboratory (away from the front line) would not tend to be that particular (or at all) about all this appearance issues..

Anyway, hair is always nicer long than short, and long hair people are certainly better looking. :cool:

Regards.
Thank you. I myself would go so far as to say that it's about time long-haired dudes stepped up front and stopped being in the back flipping burger-patties (to use a metaphorical expression). Don't you think so too? ^_^

I agree with you, hair is nicer long than short... but hey, if people like it short, they have a right to it. To quote some dude whose name I forgot (lol) : 'I might not agree with what you say/believe in, but I will fight to the death your right to say/believe it.' :)


Hi Lia:

Thanks, I'm glad my comments helped. From your other replies it seems to me that you're transgendered (forgive me if that's a wrong impression on my part). I'd ask the potential employer what the dress code is for females, because that is what you are (never mind the biology thing), and I'd be very surprised if the dress code for females stipuated a particular hair length, since long hair is traditionally an acceptable hair style option for women, correct? Can they really discriminate against you if you live as a female, and are consistent with female norms for professional attire in your choice of dress/hair style? I too have an issue with hair being mandated by a dress code, because hair is a body part, not an article of clothing. Unless one wears a wig, one cannot remove one's hair at the end of the day, the way one can remove a uniform or a business suit. Are you going to the interviews dressed as a male? Perhaps now it's time to dress as a female if indeed you are female and your goal is to live as a female.

Good luck to you, I hope it works out for you. Making a transition if you are born with a certain biology, but are instead another gender is never easy.
Yes, unfortunately they can. We don't have LGTB rights here, unlike in the U. S. and some other parts of the country. We are, while tolerated, socially ostracized as well. And, well, people here don't really know the difference between a transsexual person, a transvestite, and a homosexual person. They sort of lump it all up together, but since some homosexual men here dress as women (much to the chagrin of this socially backward country) the distinctions are blurred further... I'm not really a sociologist to be able to define in clear terms how the flow goes (since I myself am confused in the uniqueness of the LGTB community here ^_^ ) so, I'm sorry if I'm not able to clarify matters any further. Hmmm... I feel this might also be the time to apologize if my English is somehow cumbersome and archaic. ^_^ Heheh... :)

Thank you for the kind words. Oh, and if you don't mind my asking, is there any way to immigrate to the U. S. aside from being petitioned by a relative (I don't have any, since I've been orphaned since I was 16), or being adopted by a U. S. citizen (no one would adopt an 18 year old these days... I think...)? The U. S. rules of immigration state that you'd either be petitioned to immigrate by a relative who is a U. S. citizen, or be adopted by a U. S. I was just wondering if there's another way around this...?

[Alun]

RavennaNight:

The day will come when the next generation is in charge and the old fogies are dead and gone and can no longer judge. It's just like racism, as we move through generations we will move further and progress and old ideas will literally DIE.


Max Planck:


A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.


Ravenna, you are in good company. Sadly, prejudice, like, scientific fallacies, only dies when those who believe in it pass on.

[Felix_D]

My instant reaction to this thread is of course there's no long-hair hate at work. You're all being too sensitive!

BUT.. I remembered that when I cut my hair from shoulder-length to pixie, women around the office were a lot friendlier towards me. Just in a chat-around-the-coffee-pot way.

I think thick, long hair is very very feminine, and makes other women feel threatened or insecure in a very subtle way. Purely a caveman-brain thing. Access to good food => healthy hair => more fertile => get better genes.

[Alun]

Oh, and if you don't mind my asking, is there any way to immigrate to the U. S. aside from being petitioned by a relative (I don't have any, since I've been orphaned since I was 16), or being adopted by a U. S. citizen (no one would adopt an 18 year old these days... I think...)? The U. S. rules of immigration state that you'd either be petitioned to immigrate by a relative who is a U. S. citizen, or be adopted by a U. S. I was just wondering if there's another way around this...?

There are two ways to immigrate to the US. Everything you have talked about is related to family reunification, but there are also job based immigrants, who didn't have any relatives here. That's how I got here. Actually, I did have cousins in the US, but those aren't considered close enough relatives anyway.

There's even a third way. The US has an immigration lottery, although the chances of winning may not be all that much better than a normal lottery where you win money.

As a job based immigrant, a lot depends on whether you have a degree. At 18 you are probably too young to be a college graduate. When I came here, work visas (temporary) broke down into H1 for college graduates and H2 for everyone else, and green cards (permanent) broke down the same way into 3rd and 6th preference with separate quotas for college grads and the rest. However, some of this has changed and you need more current info.

All of these except the H1 visa needed a labor certificate, which if you are trying to move to the US permanently isn't much help, because then you still have to get the labor certificate to get the green card. A labor certificate certifies that there are no US workers available. The employer has to explain why everyone else who applies for the job is unsuitable.

Of course, there are ways that you are allowed to tilt the process to get only unsuitable applicants (e.g. advertising a high level job only at the employment exchange) or too few applicants (such as advertising only in certain newspapers that hardly anyone reads). If that wasn't true, then hardly anyone would ever get a labor certificate! It's harder to get a labor certificate in a bad economy, like now, though, because even if you deliberately advertise in the wrong places someone qualified will apply.

The 'bottom line' is that you would need to have a job offer in the US from someone who is willing to help you through the process. That's not always an easy thing to find. Even with a good job offer, it can take 9 months to get a labor certificate and maybe a few years to get a green card, although you can get a visa to start off with in about three months. YMMV. We made it, but it wasn't easy. That's why there are so many illegal immigrants here, because the US is abnormally difficult to move to legally, compared with almost anywhere else.

[Chromis]

At 18, I might also suggest looking a little more north. If you do a degree in Canada, there is now a special immigration thingy that is intended for students who would like to stay and others in similar situations, plus you'd have a degree! The schools are much cheaper here than they were in the US where I came from. I'm not much help on US immigration though since I was born there and didn't need to immigrate.

This is general studying info: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/faq/study/index.asp

And here is the Canadian Experience class: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/faq/immigrate/cec/index.asp

[Dreamernz]

Oh hun I feel for you, what great and utter rubbish :( I'd hire ya just because you seem like such a strong and individual character, an unjudgemental and flexible candidate is perfect for any career in which they wish to excel (the fact that I'm a 17 year old school girl does not in any way weaken my case :P :) )

[Lia_Vaumont]

Oh hun I feel for you, what great and utter rubbish :( I'd hire ya just because you seem like such a strong and individual character, an unjudgemental and flexible candidate is perfect for any career in which they wish to excel (the fact that I'm a 17 year old school girl does not in any way weaken my case :P :) )
Oh, thank you so much for the kind words! ^_^ If I might add, you are a beautiful 17 year old girl. :) I love what you've done with your hair on your signature... It's so... librarian-ish. I heart it! :D

[Lia_Vaumont]

At 18, I might also suggest looking a little more north. If you do a degree in Canada, there is now a special immigration thingy that is intended for students who would like to stay and others in similar situations, plus you'd have a degree! The schools are much cheaper here than they were in the US where I came from. I'm not much help on US immigration though since I was born there and didn't need to immigrate.

This is general studying info: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/faq/study/index.asp

And here is the Canadian Experience class: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/faq/immigrate/cec/index.asp
Thank you so much for the links! I'll look into it. ^_^ :) I've always liked Canada. It has lots of trees, mountains, snow---hmm... it has Avril Lavigne too. :D

[Lia_Vaumont]

There are two ways to immigrate to the US. Everything you have talked about is related to family reunification, but there are also job based immigrants, who didn't have any relatives here. That's how I got here. Actually, I did have cousins in the US, but those aren't considered close enough relatives anyway.

There's even a third way. The US has an immigration lottery, although the chances of winning may not be all that much better than a normal lottery where you win money.

As a job based immigrant, a lot depends on whether you have a degree. At 18 you are probably too young to be a college graduate. When I came here, work visas (temporary) broke down into H1 for college graduates and H2 for everyone else, and green cards (permanent) broke down the same way into 3rd and 6th preference with separate quotas for college grads and the rest. However, some of this has changed and you need more current info.

All of these except the H1 visa needed a labor certificate, which if you are trying to move to the US permanently isn't much help, because then you still have to get the labor certificate to get the green card. A labor certificate certifies that there are no US workers available. The employer has to explain why everyone else who applies for the job is unsuitable.

Of course, there are ways that you are allowed to tilt the process to get only unsuitable applicants (e.g. advertising a high level job only at the employment exchange) or too few applicants (such as advertising only in certain newspapers that hardly anyone reads). If that wasn't true, then hardly anyone would ever get a labor certificate! It's harder to get a labor certificate in a bad economy, like now, though, because even if you deliberately advertise in the wrong places someone qualified will apply.

The 'bottom line' is that you would need to have a job offer in the US from someone who is willing to help you through the process. That's not always an easy thing to find. Even with a good job offer, it can take 9 months to get a labor certificate and maybe a few years to get a green card, although you can get a visa to start off with in about three months. YMMV. We made it, but it wasn't easy. That's why there are so many illegal immigrants here, because the US is abnormally difficult to move to legally, compared with almost anywhere else.
I see. Thank you very much for all of the information sir. I highly appreciate it. :) With all due respect, I must also compliment you on your hair, beard, and over-all appearance. You look so much like a person from the time of the Crusades! :D It's awesome, really. ^_^

[JamieLeigh]

I too find it extremely childish and silly to judge someone by his/her outside appearance. The most responsible parent I know has multiple facial piercings and tats AND long hair. And NO I'm not just biased. :crush: ;)

Sorry...drifted a bit...:o I'm sorry you're having to deal with people who are still stuck in the past and haven't realized that times have changed yet. People still seem to hold on to what they were raised with, and if their particular area of service/goods caters to the older generations, then sometimes they base their opinions of what's right or wrong on their customers/clients, in order to keep their business. It isn't right, and I wish it were different, but it happens. :( Chin up, and keep trying. :grouphug:

[david]

Although I have not really experienced this first hand I have heard of people going through this. Some guys especially get allot of hassle for having long hair and many resort to cutting. I personally think that its not right that some work places allow women to wear their hair long and guys are not allowed to have long hair regardless of any factors. As long as the person looks clean and presentable there should be equality in the workplace. Obviously, if a guy comes to an interview or to work with long hair that looks like it hasn't been washed for weeks and is a mess then this would be cause for concern. But this would be the same if a woman does the same.

Personally, I have always had no problem regarding my hair, but most of the jobs I have done are based around the arts etc. But I once did either have to wear my hair up or in a ponytail or plait. But once again this was the same for the women.

[Chromis]

Thank you so much for the links! I'll look into it. ^_^ :) I've always liked Canada. It has lots of trees, mountains, snow---hmm... it has Avril Lavigne too. :D

Oh, and I forgot to mention, immigration here is fairly nonjudgmental about gender matters (unlike the US)!

Figure since you mentioned you dreamed of moving, I'd give you a nudge in the right direction :wink:

[Alun]

I see. Thank you very much for all of the information sir. I highly appreciate it. :) With all due respect, I must also compliment you on your hair, beard, and over-all appearance. You look so much like a person from the time of the Crusades! :D It's awesome, really. ^_^

Thanks for the compliment.

[Kya]

I know a handful of corporate guys with lovely long hair. (I like that suit jacket with jeans and a pony tail look.) They "carry it well" meaning their attitude is as cool. :cool: I'm sorry you are having such a hard time - but try to keep a really positive attitude ... no matter what response you get. If you know who you are, then judgment and criticism from other people don't matter (and with practice, it won't shake you). :disco: Go in with the attitude that you are a valuable asset, hair and all, and if they don't hire you, then it's on to next interview (at least you're getting interviews - I know so many who are not).

[Lia_Vaumont]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, immigration here is fairly nonjudgmental about gender matters (unlike the US)!

Figure since you mentioned you dreamed of moving, I'd give you a nudge in the right direction :wink:
I've researched it last night, but I'm still puzzled as to where I'm going to submit the forms, and how to pay for the expenses (is it covered)? From what I've read there's supposed to be some sort of hearing or something...? Any tips?

[Juneii]

sometimes people are just shallow like that. a friend of mine got fired from his work just because of that as well, his hair wasn't "long" as we describe it, but they still didn't think it was appropriate for him to continue working if his hair wasn't cut.

I guess that was just a matter of cleanliness to the employers. To most people guys with long hair is unclean. which is partially true, another friend of mine had BSL hair that was amassed with split ends up to the ears!

I hope you can find a job that will accept you and your hair :]

[MissMandyElizab]

this is so up setting i feel so sorry but how many times has one of us been told we should put our hair up it looks more professional?

[Lia_Vaumont]

I've gone to the Canadian Immigration Consulting office downtown, and what they said literally took the wind out of me. I can't immigrate, since I don't have a degree, and the refugee program that they had look for people that did have degrees. As for being a student there, I needed a school to accept me (how am I gonna do that?) and the money to spend in studying there and getting there (which was contrary to what the site said, that the Canadian government would sponsor the person who applied). I'm literally crushed. I just feel like rolling into as tight a human ball as I can and hope to disappear. I don't want to sound so pathetic and weak, but I just don't know where else to turn to for emotional support at the moment, and I think I can't suppress any of these roiling emotions any longer... I need some five-hundred-thousand pesos to immigrate to Canada, and talk about the money that I need to actually study there for two years before I am allowed to file for citizenship... I only earn a thousand-five-hundred a month, give or take a few hundred, and that barely covers rent and food...

Oh gods, I'm so crushed! I'm obliterated... Even if I worked for 10 years straight here, I'll never get that much money, not while I'm still a high-school graduate. Even the vocational cooking course I took won't satisfy the units needed for eligibility. I... I just can't accept that I'll have to live half a life until I draw my last breath. What is to be feared most, I believe, is not the life un-lived, but a life only half-lived; and that is my case. I can't live pretending everyday. And I can't suppress what I really am. I've tried. It only made me feel miserable. And even if I know what I am inside, there's still that nagging pain in me that longs to be what I truly am outside as well. Maybe there are other ways... I'm telling myself not to give up right now, although I really want to just break down right now... Are there sites that I can contact for support in regards to immigration? It feels as though everything's closing in on me... and I'm the trapped animal frantically seeking for an escape hatch... I don't want to accept that I'll be stuck in this country forever, without a future, without a home, without real friends, without a real identity... I'm willing myself to not give up... After this, I'll browse for some more info... but it seems bleak. A part of me just wants to enter a state of catatonia right now... or better yet sleep and hope to never wake up. But there's still so much I can do... if only there were ways to get over the poverty obstacle. I still hope to be a historian, so I can remind people of the past to help them forge better futures. I still want to make an orphanage someday so no-one else will have to go through what I've gone through. I still want to be able to see myself in the mirror one morning and greet the real me with a smile. I still want to give every ounce of my heart to someone and make them realize how wonderful they are... there's still so much I can do... but there's just so much in the way. I'm just one person. I'm afraid I can't accomplish everything alone. I am weary of being alone.

I'm sorry, I'm just ranting... I... I needed to let it out. I hope I haven't made a fool of myself here. My apologies again.

[Chromis]

I've researched it last night, but I'm still puzzled as to where I'm going to submit the forms, and how to pay for the expenses (is it covered)? From what I've read there's supposed to be some sort of hearing or something...? Any tips?

We printed the forms off of the site and sent them to the address they said to. The froms themselves are pretty clear. We paid the fees on-line or you can pay by mail, but yes, it does cost! The hearing thing I think sounds like for refugees, which you would not be. I know the US also charges immigration fees as does every other country I had looked at.


I've gone to the Canadian Immigration Consulting office downtown, and what they said literally took the wind out of me. I can't immigrate, since I don't have a degree, and the refugee program that they had look for people that did have degrees. As for being a student there, I needed a school to accept me (how am I gonna do that?) and the money to spend in studying there and getting there (which was contrary to what the site said, that the Canadian government would sponsor the person who applied). I'm literally crushed. I just feel like rolling into as tight a human ball as I can and hope to disappear. I don't want to sound so pathetic and weak, but I just don't know where else to turn to for emotional support at the moment, and I think I can't suppress any of these roiling emotions any longer... I need some five-hundred-thousand pesos to immigrate to Canada, and talk about the money that I need to actually study there for two years before I am allowed to file for citizenship... I only earn a thousand-five-hundred a month, give or take a few hundred, and that barely covers rent and food...

Oh gods, I'm so crushed! I'm obliterated... Even if I worked for 10 years straight here, I'll never get that much money, not while I'm still a high-school graduate. Even the vocational cooking course I took won't satisfy the units needed for eligibility. I... I just can't accept that I'll have to live half a life until I draw my last breath. What is to be feared most, I believe, is not the life un-lived, but a life only half-lived; and that is my case. I can't live pretending everyday. And I can't suppress what I really am. I've tried. It only made me feel miserable. And even if I know what I am inside, there's still that nagging pain in me that longs to be what I truly am outside as well. Maybe there are other ways... I'm telling myself not to give up right now, although I really want to just break down right now... Are there sites that I can contact for support in regards to immigration? It feels as though everything's closing in on me... and I'm the trapped animal frantically seeking for an escape hatch... I don't want to accept that I'll be stuck in this country forever, without a future, without a home, without real friends, without a real identity... I'm willing myself to not give up... After this, I'll browse for some more info... but it seems bleak. A part of me just wants to enter a state of catatonia right now... or better yet sleep and hope to never wake up. But there's still so much I can do... if only there were ways to get over the poverty obstacle. I still hope to be a historian, so I can remind people of the past to help them forge better futures. I still want to make an orphanage someday so no-one else will have to go through what I've gone through. I still want to be able to see myself in the mirror one morning and greet the real me with a smile. I still want to give every ounce of my heart to someone and make them realize how wonderful they are... there's still so much I can do... but there's just so much in the way. I'm just one person. I'm afraid I can't accomplish everything alone. I am weary of being alone.

I'm sorry, I'm just ranting... I... I needed to let it out. I hope I haven't made a fool of myself here. My apologies again.

Yes, since you don't have a degree your best bet would be to go student class. You do need to be accepted into a school, but the fees for applying to school are much cheaper than the immigration fees, so it would not make sense to get the visa first and then find you couldn't get into a school, no? The government does not sponsor you. I find the website is much better than the consulates! Go by what it says, because those are the official rules.

It is hard, when you don't have money. I know, I have been there too, picking fruit and working in factories when I couldn't find other jobs. Being hungry. It took a couple years to save up. I know there are programs here where employers bring in people from other countries through agencies for a few months to a year (temporary visas, but at least you'd be making better money), but some of them are pretty shady, you'd need to do some research.

I don't know enough about programs in the Philippines or I would suggest some, but it is worth looking into seeing if there are any outside of high school. I did a quick search here, but since I am outside the country I kept getting Canadian charities rather than real results. The Commission on Higher Education looks like a good starting place though: http://www.ched.gov.ph/projects/index.html I would also suggest getting in contact with local LGBT groups and seeing if you can get any job leads from them. They are more likely to know what employers will be more tolerant!

[Lia_Vaumont]

We printed the forms off of the site and sent them to the address they said to. The froms themselves are pretty clear. We paid the fees on-line or you can pay by mail, but yes, it does cost! The hearing thing I think sounds like for refugees, which you would not be. I know the US also charges immigration fees as does every other country I had looked at.



Yes, since you don't have a degree your best bet would be to go student class. You do need to be accepted into a school, but the fees for applying to school are much cheaper than the immigration fees, so it would not make sense to get the visa first and then find you couldn't get into a school, no? The government does not sponsor you. I find the website is much better than the consulates! Go by what it says, because those are the official rules.

It is hard, when you don't have money. I know, I have been there too, picking fruit and working in factories when I couldn't find other jobs. Being hungry. It took a couple years to save up. I know there are programs here where employers bring in people from other countries through agencies for a few months to a year (temporary visas, but at least you'd be making better money), but some of them are pretty shady, you'd need to do some research.

I don't know enough about programs in the Philippines or I would suggest some, but it is worth looking into seeing if there are any outside of high school. I did a quick search here, but since I am outside the country I kept getting Canadian charities rather than real results. The Commission on Higher Education looks like a good starting place though: http://www.ched.gov.ph/projects/index.html I would also suggest getting in contact with local LGBT groups and seeing if you can get any job leads from them. They are more likely to know what employers will be more tolerant!
Thank you so much for all the advise! It really means a lot. :D

[Juanita]

Knowing the Philippines to be a very traditional society. I think for you the arts and entertainment areas would be a more tolorant place for you to find acceptence and work.
Westerner teenager in Singapore in late 60's.