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Prism
February 8th, 2010, 02:21 PM
Hi, All,

I was here before chemo and am back trying to regrow my hair. It's currently just brushing my neck, not even shoulder length yet.

Since a couple of days ago, I've been trying to avoid heat, but the hair looks SO bad without any heat. There's no weight of length to pull it down. I never really liked it without blow drying at all when it was long, but now it just looks really unkempt.

Last night I thought I'd wash it and let it air dry as I slept. The ends actually felt worse for doing so, crunchy, much worse than they do if I let it air dry during the day. I am guessing it's because of moving around on the pillow and the hair getting bent various ways. Probably ruffed up the cuticle (still trying to find a queen-size satin pillowcase).

Anyway, I am just very discouraged. My hair is coming in quite gray, and I don't like gray on me. I had been going to a salon to get base color to cover the gray + highlights, but I know this is damaging. Henna seems like too much of an experiment every time to suit me; I've dealt with regrowing hair from bald now since late 2007, and I just can't afford to take any risks with things going very wrong.

So...tips, encouragement, advice welcome, particularly in light of my hair type.

Also, after using Joico chelating shampoo followed by K-Pak reconstructor, what's best to use to keep the ends moist throughout the day? I'm reading various conflicting things here. I think I recall Nightshade's great article said that oil can't actually be absorbed by the hair shaft. Cones can seal the moisture IN, but can also build up on the hair. So what will get moisture INTO the hair before you seal it with cones (or oil? does oil seal?)?

And what the heck should I do about the gray since I'm not happy with gray on me? And the highlights?

As for heat, I'm starting to waver because if your hair just looks like crap without it, what are you gonna do til it hit your shoulders? Just look like crap for a year or more? I'm not up to it. I want long hair again, but not if I feel lousy about my looks for a couple years. I don't think aloe gel would give it any style, either. It just sort of hangs there with some wave, but not enough wave that a gel would bring the wave out.

I should try to take some pics of what I'm dealing with. Maybe I just need a trim to even things out. The ends have been razored since my hair has been thick and short, and it helps it to not look so heavy, but the razored layers may be contributing to the messy look when it's not blowdried.

Anyway, you can see my album and blog, what I'm doing.

thanks much for any help/encouragement,

FrannyG
February 8th, 2010, 02:47 PM
Well, I won't be the most popular kid in school here, but I say, do whatever you need to do to enjoy your hair at this stage. If that means using heat, then do it. If you don't feel that your hair is attractive, then you will not enjoy the growing process.

Once your hair gets longer, you may not need to use heat at all, depending on the look you desire.

As to the colour, again, I say do what makes you happy. I colour my hair which is now predominantly white, and I will continue to do so. My hair was still very healthy looking and feeling at close to waistlength before I cut it to its present length, and it was coloured then as well. We have members here who have uber long hair who dye or highlight with bleach.

I know there will be people who tell you to embrace your silvers, and that's fine. It just doesn't work for all of us. I feel more attractive without the silvers, and that's what works for me.

I just make sure that I give my hair extra love and attention.

I don't heat style, but I'm quite sure I did when my hair was your length and I understand your reasoning.


Regarding cones, if you clarify and then do a nice deep treatment like an SMT, which is extremely moisturizing and then use your cones, you will be sealing in moisture for a time. Just remember to clarify periodically and repeat the process when necessary.

I don't currently use cones myself, but I did when I needed to. I'll bet half of LHC uses cones. You just hear more talk from the no-cone people.

So congratulations on getting this far, and enjoy the ride, doing whatever makes you feel happy and pretty. :blossom:

Nightshade
February 8th, 2010, 02:56 PM
I agree with Franny.

Really, the shorter lengths are TOUGH to baby. You can't get them into protective updos, you can't live in a hat all the time, there just isn't much you can do.

Some things that may help:

- If you use heat, try to keep it on the lowest setting possible. Blow dry on a cooler setting, if you can, rather than flat iron. I think that this causes less damage than the combined heat and friction of a flat iron.

- Try to use gels and other styling products that do not have drying alcohol in them.

- For the color, are you just looking to match your current color and blend the grays in, or go for something else entirely? You could always look into henna or other herbal blends as an option. If you color or get highlights, I do think it'd be worth it to go to a professional at an Aveda salon. Having a pro do it and then only do touchups as you need is much more gentle than the DIY home kits.

- Another color thought... if cassia stains on your grays/silvers, perhaps that would work? You'd have blonde-ish highlights and would get a conditioning treatment to boot!

- For getting moisture into your hair, first make sure you clarify off any cones you have on there. Then give it a nice long soak in a cone-free conditioner, or a SMT. Just slather your hair up, toss on a shower cap, and let it sit for an hour or two before rinsing. Then you can seal it in with your cones (or oils) :)

Prism
February 8th, 2010, 03:00 PM
Thanks for your reply.

Here's one thing I wonder about: When we DO choose to color our hair as it's turning gray, what can we do when it's all gray so there's no abrupt transition? I mean, eventually I'll probably want to be all gray. But right now, I think it looks bad on me, and that certainly makes me feel bad about my looks. The grays are mostly around my face. I'm wondering, should I get the base color that covers the grays, or just get the highlights so they sort of blend in? or keep doing both?

I just need a game plan for once it's very gray.

I just blow dried a little, used some heat protectant spray, and basically came to the same conclusion: I am going to continue blow drying minimally. I've gotta like my hair more than this or I can see impulsively going and getting a pixie. Dealing with short hair after having long hair is a PITA itself, but dealing with short and messy, styleless hair is too much for me right now.

Probably by the time my hair reaches BSL, I'll be hating the length anyway. I can't imagine wanting to go longer (too many negative connotations with ultra-long hair in my mind after being raised not allowed to cut my hair at all due to religion). If I DO want it longer when it's BSL, I guess I'll just have to expect that a good several inches will need to be taken off to get rid of the most damaged areas.

Prism
February 8th, 2010, 03:14 PM
@Nightshade, thanks. I don't use a flat iron (thankfully). I have an ionic blowdryer (not sure how much of that ionic stuff is hype) that I use with a round brush. Thing is, I often see STEAM :bigeyes: go up from my hair even on the medium heat when I'm using a round brush. This is with hair mostly air dried and left moist afterward. I'm thinkin if you're seeing steam, you're probably cooking the hair. Maybe I need a blow dryer with more settings than just high, medium, and low.

I'll have to look at my styling products. Right now I just use a heat protectant spray and typically a cone of some kind.

For the color, I'm really just looking to stay similar to my natural color, which is sort of a dark blonde/light brown. I'd like to either cover the grays or blend them in. I'm too nervous about the gamble that henna seems like it is. Yes, I've been going to a pro, but not an Aveda salon. The pro colorings and highlightings have felt much less drying than the drug store kits I was using at home. We do have a long hair Aveda salon here in Atlanta, and I was there before the cancer stuff. I noticed long-hair ladies getting their hair colored, even highlighted, and their hair was gorgeous, so maybe I need to look into that particular salon again. Thanks for making me think of this.

I don't know anything about cassia. :confused: Any links you'd recommend?

SMT, SMT,.. gotta figure out what that stands for. Ok, so I guess I did that part right with the clarifying shampoo, the cone-free reconstructor followed by the cone product.

Thanks, Nightshade!

little_cherry
February 8th, 2010, 03:15 PM
I agree with what has been said above.

How about cassia for the greys? http://www.hennacaravan.com/how/cassia.html

SMT (snowymoons Moisture Treatment) is a fantastic deep treatment that is easy to prepare: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=128

Hope that helps! I wish you all the best!

halo_tightens
February 8th, 2010, 03:20 PM
I'm going to hop on the cassia bandwagon here, too... I like the idea of turning unwanted silvers into blonde highlights! (With the added bonus, as Nightshade mentioned, of the strengthening and conditioning that cassia gives.)

Nice to meet you, by the way! :)

cmnt831
February 8th, 2010, 03:25 PM
Thanks for your reply.

Here's one thing I wonder about: When we DO choose to color our hair as it's turning gray, what can we do when it's all gray so there's no abrupt transition? I mean, eventually I'll probably want to be all gray. But right now, I think it looks bad on me, and that certainly makes me feel bad about my looks. The grays are mostly around my face. I'm wondering, should I get the base color that covers the grays, or just get the highlights so they sort of blend in? or keep doing both?

I just need a game plan for once it's very gray.

When I was first going gray in my early 20s, I opted for highlights. It was much easier to deal with for me, since it sort of blended things together and I didn't have the "growing out" part to really go through. Eventually, I had enough gray growing that I liked it and just dyed the left over highlighted areas to match my natural darker hair color. Give it some thought before dyeing or highlighting it, though. The two week rule if possible. That way you make the best choice for yourself.

lilish
February 8th, 2010, 03:35 PM
It is fairly common I think to have hair grow in differently after chemo. My father had his hair grow in really curly and reddish, instead of dark brown. Like it was growing in damaged (not saying curly red hair is damaged, but that is a sign of damage for someone with very dark, slightly wavy hair). Then a few years later he needed chemo again, but th is time it grew back normally. A friend of mine still has very fragile, damaged-looking hair as well. I really wouldn't be surprised over what you are seeing. Like the others have said, do what you need to do to make yourself happy with your hair and worry about being super gentle when it grows to a length that you can tame more easily. If you really want to try something without blow drying, you could wear a headband or hair clips in. That way it won't look "unkempt", it will look like you put effort in and it is just the texture of your hair.

halo_tightens
February 8th, 2010, 03:45 PM
It is fairly common I think to have hair grow in differently after chemo. My father had his hair grow in really curly and reddish, instead of dark brown. Like it was growing in damaged (not saying curly red hair is damaged, but that is a sign of damage for someone with very dark, slightly wavy hair). Then a few years later he needed chemo again, but th is time it grew back normally. A friend of mine still has very fragile, damaged-looking hair as well. I really wouldn't be surprised over what you are seeing.

I recently saw the truth of this for myself. There's a very sweet lady at my workplace who has extremely thin hair; nearly her entire scalp is visible. One day as we were talking we somehow got onto the subject of hair, and she revealed to me that she had had quite thick hair for most of her life. She defeated breast cancer six or seven years ago, and after the chemo, her hair came back with little resemblance to the hair she'd always had before. She said that it was like having to learn to work with a completely different person's hair, but on her own head! :)

That would be frustrating, especially for folks like us who put so much time into figuring out exactly what products and routines work well for our particular hairtypes. I wouldn't know what to do if suddenly I had to start the learning process from scratch! Well... I guess I'd start over, obviously. But I'd be frustrated, after having finally figured out some of what works and doesn't work for me.

Prism
February 8th, 2010, 04:09 PM
Thanks, ladies! I will check out the cassia. I just checked on the guy who specializes in long hair in Atlanta and found that he does henna, too, so maybe I'll see if he'd recommend that and/or cassia for me. I'm just afraid to try it on my own the first time.

Yes, you're very right in that post-chemo hair often comes in totally different. It can be a different color, different texture, etc. Mine appears to be exactly the same, both color and texture. I even have the waviness in the same places. (pics in the album) So I don't think that's what I'm dealing with. It's just the regular growing-out challenges combined with increasingly gray hair.

@cmnt831, I think I'm going to take your advice and just give it two weeks to see how I feel about it after resuming with a bit of heat. I am very bad about doing things impulsively (really shouldn't even own a pair of scissors), so a 2-week rule would be good here. That'll also give me time to research cassia, henna and my other options.

Thank you, all!

FrannyG
February 8th, 2010, 04:44 PM
Just a note about cassia vs. henna. Cassia deposits a very gentle yellow blonde colour and is temporary on virgin hair. Henna is a real commitment, as it's virtually impossible to remove.

If you go with henna, you have to know that you will have red hair until you grow it out. It is not easily removed at all, and more than one LHC member has had to cut their hair off after attempting to remove henna.

Prism
February 8th, 2010, 08:15 PM
Well, I dug out a barrette I'd never worn, and it's amazing how something that simple made my hair a lot more tolerable today. This is just one of those little tiny ones that doesn't clip but bends into a closed position. It's enough to sweep my shorter front hair back away from my face.

I think this is showing that part of the problem is that without heat, I have basically only one way I've been wearing my hair, and that's with a headband. And there's pretty much only one headband I wear because the others either look out of date or aren't comfortable to wear.

So if you have any recommendations on good sites for a wide variety of hair accessories, please share, particularly if the site is conscious about damaging accessories. I have several barrettes that probably should be thrown out because they EAT hair.

Maybe a few fun little barrettes would get me through this stage without cutting, anyway.

Fractalsofhair
February 8th, 2010, 08:24 PM
Whole foods, in my area at least, has some awesome headbands that are satin and don't look dated! Once you can get your hair in a ponytail, it will be a lot easier. There's all sorts of pretty scrunchies with beads out there that work well.

If your hair can grow without breaking off, I'd also suggest the heat styling. If your hair breaks off, I'd avoid it.

Prism
February 8th, 2010, 08:31 PM
It might be the question of how often I heat style. Maybe if I can simply cut it back to every few days, that would be tolerable. Or get it down to cool instead of warm. Hopefully the accumulation of all of the different things I'm doing, like washing in cooler water, not piling hair on head, avoiding the curling iron, etc., will all go a long way toward keeping it decent. I know when it was long before, I never messed around with the heat protector spray, so maybe that'll help this time as well. I hope so.

I only went to Ulta to check out hair accessories and didn't see anything I really liked (though there was a braid-looking one that matched my hair color, so I might need to go back for that one). I will check out Whole Foods--thanks for the suggestion!

Anybody know of any good sites online that have gentle hair accessories of the tiny kind (I'm not Ficarre ready--most of it would fall out of the clip)?

EDIT: I just noticed Ficarre has some *mini* clips. I may be in trouble... lol

piratejenny23
February 8th, 2010, 09:41 PM
i haven't tried cassia but it sounds like it might be good for your situation...

however, i recently did try "Surya Henna" (after being too intimidated by all the steps for mixing henna) and it is super, super easy to apply! it has the consistency of a thin conditioner rather than mud :p it gave my hair a nice gloss and i feel like it made my hair stronger & smoother--not fluffy or flyaway, but i can get a brush through it much more easily. it just takes 3 or 4 strokes to completely detangle my hair! (i get it from iherb.com or vitacost.com) i also think it's just semi-permanent, so it will wash out after a couple of months and maybe won't be so drastic when you decide to let the greys take over!

i like the idea of highlights to blend the grey in so that you don't have tiers of differently-colored hair.

Prettychild
February 9th, 2010, 03:50 AM
I am sorry you are having to go through this process. I had to cut my hair GI Jane style after some bad damage -commercial dyes are not always safe. Since then my hair is very sparse in some places and the gp recommended I did not use any hair dyes or heating for at least 1 year.
Unfortunately I have some grays (since childhood in fact) and do not fancy going white at 35 so I decided to go the henna way.
I can say my hair's condition has improved a lot, no shedding and no damage from henna. I mix my henna with indigo to achieve brown. Although my grays are very resistant to dye I am happy with the results. The end colour is a soft reddish-brown (wish it was darker) but they blend beautifully with the rest of my hair. I will probably increase the indigo to henna ratio amount to make the hair even darker. There is a good website : www.hennaforhair.com with info about henna.

However henna IS permanent so you have to think if you are willing to make the commitment to a labour intensive process and weight the advantages, pro and cons, vs commercial dye.

Prism
March 7th, 2010, 10:20 PM
I might sometime try cassia, but have heard mixed results from it here on the boards. Some have said it doesn't turn their grays blonde at all. Others have said the senna form makes their grays too yellow. Either way, I don't want to introduce red. I wore red for quite a while, and it looked good, but just don't want to deal with it right now. I want to stick with close to my natural color, which is a blah dark blonde with whites coming in, primarily visible around my face.

ravenreed
March 7th, 2010, 11:08 PM
I did demi-permanent hair color for a while. It is less damaging than permanent. It also fades over time, so that I have considered doing demi until all my hair is grey and then not coloring any more and let it fade. I don't know how much it would fade on your hair, however.

Chrissy
March 8th, 2010, 05:00 AM
I have no advice. I just wanted to say I'm so glad you are through with chemo and I wish you the best for a long healthy life!!!

Mutinous
March 8th, 2010, 12:36 PM
Firstly, congrats on beating the cancer.

Secondly, I am in the exact same stage you are in now, and the impulse to heat style gets really bad. I'm wearing a lot of hats at the moment, which is also good because it is freaking cold! Also, is it possible to scrape some of your hair back into a ponytail and secure the rest with some pins? At your length it should be possible. If you have the time/patience, there are things like rag curls, and making curls with strips of brown paper bags which are heat free and give a really nice wave, though they are time consuming.

I'd vote for cassia as well with your hair colour, it doesn't have the permanence of henna, and will give your hair a nice boost :)

melrose1985
March 8th, 2010, 01:31 PM
Well, I won't be the most popular kid in school here, but I say, do whatever you need to do to enjoy your hair at this stage. If that means using heat, then do it. If you don't feel that your hair is attractive, then you will not enjoy the growing process.

Once your hair gets longer, you may not need to use heat at all, depending on the look you desire.



This...when i permed my hair then chemically straighened it 4 days later my hair was so wrecked (i was about APL) that from the chin (and a little high in spots) was like hot pizza cheesy.... mushy and stretchy. So i had it cut off into a bob and my hair was still a mess so i used the flat iron and blow dryer every day till my hair was to shoulder. It looked last damaged ironing it then just leaving it.

Now i know your hair isnt damaged like mine was... But in the end after a year of growing i got my hair cut and layers added in which took almost all the damage away anyways.

I agree do what is going to make you feel good about your hair.

Prism
March 9th, 2010, 01:49 AM
I did demi-permanent hair color for a while. It is less damaging than permanent. It also fades over time, so that I have considered doing demi until all my hair is grey and then not coloring any more and let it fade. I don't know how much it would fade on your hair, however.

What's a good brand? I am not familiar with demi- (semi?) permanent hair color. I did try something (Natural Essence? or something like that) that would wash out over a period of weeks. Of course the box claimed that it wouldn't damage hair, that your hair would be in even better condition than it was before you colored it. Hah. Right. I've come to realize that nearly all of these claims are absolute bunk.

I really LIKE the idea of covering the gray with something that is temporary and doesn't leave roots but just fades. That I could deal with.

Prism
March 9th, 2010, 01:55 AM
This...when i permed my hair then chemically straighened it 4 days later my hair was so wrecked (i was about APL) that from the chin (and a little high in spots) was like hot pizza cheesy.... mushy and stretchy. So i had it cut off into a bob and my hair was still a mess so i used the flat iron and blow dryer every day till my hair was to shoulder. It looked last damaged ironing it then just leaving it.

Now i know your hair isnt damaged like mine was... But in the end after a year of growing i got my hair cut and layers added in which took almost all the damage away anyways.

I agree do what is going to make you feel good about your hair.

Oh dear! Poor you with having to deal with that. I had an experience in college in which a girl permed my hair and it came out gummy. Really weird feeling. She must have left it on too long or something. The curl didn't even take well. That hair was a mess for a long time.

And yes, I think you ladies make total sense. There are a lot of crappy awkward stages of regrowing hair to shoulders. When I wrote this, I was at one of them. Hair has grown an inch this last month and that's enabled me to do more things with clipping it up, which has helped. I'm still mostly blowdrying on cool because I am noticing a huge difference in the texture of my hair. Whether it's just from blow drying, I don't know because I've changed so many things at once. But it doesn't appear to be causing any damage and it's giving me a look that is decent most days, so I'm happy.

I did use some heat blowdrying recently when I was meeting a friend I hadn't seen for ages. I first sprayed heat protectant on my hair and then blowdried it under using warm fluctuating with cool, leaving it slightly damp. I noticed my hair felt crunchy afterward, but I think this was more from the spray-in stuff. I just added some oil to the ends, and it felt better.

So yup, I'm slogging through this stage. It gets easier as I find new hair toys and new styles.

LoveBugPugs
January 26th, 2011, 11:11 AM
Hi Prism! I'm in Atlanta, too. Braselton to be exact.
I just got back from Jacksonville Mayo clinic because of an undiagnoseddisorder, still undiagnosed. They found I have very low feritin levels. I have been researching feritin levels and have found chemotherapy lowers our levels dramatically. Levels below 50 or 70 (some number like that) causes hair loss in women. Look into that if you want, and ask your doc to check. 20 and above is 'in range' but my Mayo doc wants me near 100. My hair has thinned with a slew of other symptoms which is why they checked, but many women never have symptoms when low, sometimes just thinned hair. I know chemotherapy causes hair thinning, but with the low ferritin it may take lnger to regain thickness. Just thought it could be something you may be interested in! Good luck!
Renee

LoveBugPugs
January 26th, 2011, 11:17 AM
I type too fast! Sorry, my phone's keyboard didn't double the 'r'. Ferritin is the spelling.

HintOfMint
January 26th, 2011, 11:33 AM
When I had hair at your length, I used an Aveda styling cream on damp hair and let it air dry. It gave just enough weight to my hair to not have it poof out or go frizzy when it dried. It's called Aveda Brilliant Universal Styling Creme. It has cones in it, but honestly, it worked really well for my hair at that length and helped me not resort to heat.

spidermom
January 26th, 2011, 11:48 AM
I felt that I had to use heat styling during the awkward stages. I had to cut damage away, but as my hair grew longer, the weight pulled out the tendency to fluff out and curls actually formed where cow-licks had been before. If I had it to do over again, I'd probably try some of the tricks I've learned here to manage my hair, but if it still looked bad to me - I'd clamp some heat to it, knowing I'd have to trim more often later.

As for color, I know I'd be hesitant to subject my system to chemical color after the stress of chemotherapy, but I don't mind going silver.

ETA: Oh my goodness; here I am replying to an old thread. I have got to pay more attention!

girlcat36
January 26th, 2011, 05:38 PM
I'm glad your treatment is over and your hair is regrowing nicely(except for the gray part you don't like :p).

I am about 40% gray, but I color with Natural Instincts semi-permanent hair color, because I am not ready to go gray yet. I had cancer in 2007 too and it really messed with my hair. I just want long brown hair for once in my life!
I do plan to go gray eventually, maybe in 5 years, so I figured I stick with the semi-permanent color and when I decide to go gray I will leave it in for less and less time each time I color, so it will be a gradual fading instead of the abrupt line that a permanent dye can leave.

In theory, that's my plan. Whether it will actually work and I will grow gray gracefully while retaining my length--I don't know, but we'll see in a few years!

Clytemnestra
January 26th, 2011, 05:55 PM
I've had silvers since I was 21, but they are very subtle and platinum, and they don't bother me. I recently dyed my bleached light blonde hair back to my natural lightest brown with Ion Demi-Permanent Color in Medium Blonde from Sally's with 10 volume developer for sensitive scalps. You have to go a couple shades lighter than your color because it is a deposit only, no lift.

I was amazed at the coverage, considering my hair was very light blonde, now I've got the ombre look with caramel color fading from dark to lighter ends. It completely covers the silvers at first, and gradually fades and blends to blonde highlights, which is cool.

I like it a lot, and it did not sting my head at all, I also soaked in coconut oil the night before to minimize damage. I've also heard good things about the Wella Color Charm Demi.

You can use it 2:1, or 1:1, depending on the coverage that you want, and they also have shiny clear, but I get enough shine from the color. I'm only going to have to use it a few times a year, so doubt I will see too much damage. Cassia was too yellow for me, but that's when I was blonde.
Good luck!

Prism
January 27th, 2011, 08:45 AM
Hi Prism! I'm in Atlanta, too. Braselton to be exact.
I just got back from Jacksonville Mayo clinic because of an undiagnoseddisorder, still undiagnosed. They found I have very low feritin levels. I have been researching feritin levels and have found chemotherapy lowers our levels dramatically. Levels below 50 or 70 (some number like that) causes hair loss in women. Look into that if you want, and ask your doc to check. 20 and above is 'in range' but my Mayo doc wants me near 100. My hair has thinned with a slew of other symptoms which is why they checked, but many women never have symptoms when low, sometimes just thinned hair. I know chemotherapy causes hair thinning, but with the low ferritin it may take lnger to regain thickness. Just thought it could be something you may be interested in! Good luck!
Renee

Hi, Renee,

??? I'm not having any problem with hair thinning. My hair has always been extremely thick. If anything, it's even thicker since chemo. The problems I mentioned are that I don't like that it's more gray now and the texture is more brittle.

kdaniels8811
January 27th, 2011, 11:54 AM
Hi, guys. I must admit I am envious, just out of chemo and my hair is just a couple inches long and impossible to do anything with. You have been growing since 2007 (OP) and it is just now shoulder length??? Yikes! I hope to be shoulder length in one year! I was completely bald in July so am hoping for major progress by next year.

Chemo sucks but beats the alternative. I do not have any advice about greys, I am going to go the henna route (again) once mine grows out a little. My hair is dark brown so the henna is a great color for me. Hang in there, there is a super shorties group you may like to check out.