Homemade Conditioner Ingredients??

[K_Angel]

I'm hoping someone can help me with this.
Recently, I've tried probably 20 or more commercial
conditioners and I'm just so frustrated. I thought
maybe I could make something simple that had only
what my hair needed in it? Could be wishful thinking
on my part.

I've never made anything like this before. And I was wondering how would I know what was safe to add to this? For example my hair likes glycerin. Can I add that to this? The company that has this product only gave FO/EO adds information. I just don't want to accidentally add anything that would fry my hair. :scared:

Does anyone know what ingredients do the following in homemade/commercial conditioner?
Make hair soft? Make hair shiny? Make hair wavy? Make hair detangled? Make hair full?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

ETA: Links to places to buy ingredients for Homemade Conditioner

In U.S.
Aroma-Zone
Aussie Soap Supplies
Brambleberry
From Nature with Love
Garden of Wisdom
The Herbarie
Lotioncrafter
Mountain Rose Herbs
Nature's Gift
Organic Creations
The Personal formulator
Pharmpress
The Ponte Vedra Soap Shoppe
Pvsoap
Snowdrift Farm
The Soap Dish
Wholesale Supplies Plus
http://www.camdengrey.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?
Texas Natural Supply http://www.texasnaturalsupply.com/de...x?categoryid=0
Majestic Mountain Sage http://www.thesage.com/
Dandelion Botanical Company (bulk herbs) http://www.dandelionbotanical.com

In Canada:
Voyageur Soap & Candle
Creations from Eden (in Edmonton)

Recipes and Instructions:
Swift Crafty Monkey

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[hennaphile]

This doensn't quite answer your question, but have you tried acv rinses?

[K_Angel]

Hennaphile:

Actually I have tried ACV. 5 years ago it was a dream come true when my Grandma told me they did that "back in the day." It made my hair look glorious.
Today it just fries my hair to no end. :shrug: Go figure, huh?

[hennaphile]

Hennaphile:

Actually I have tried ACV. 5 years ago it was a dream come true when my Grandma told me they did that "back in the day." It made my hair look glorious.
Today it just fries my hair to no end. :shrug: Go figure, huh?

I've had both experiences with acv. Beer rinses are nice though, you might want to give those a try :)

[K_Angel]

I've had both experiences with acv. Beer rinses are nice though, you might want to give those a try :)
I had contemplated that, but I REALLY hate the smell of beer.
And I"m not sure how well I'd do with it sitting on my hair or if it
kept smelling like that afterward.... :laugh:

But thank you very much for the suggestions! I appreciate it! :blossom:

[pinchbeck]

I share the same frustrations with you and will add that the expense of prepared conditioner is a bit much because I prefer the fragrance free all natural versions.

Conditioner bases are available as are the ingredients that make them and some have reviews written about their performance. I have the websites in my bookmarks (will post them here later). I think they are a great idea. The websites point out what percentage of eo's can be added.

Ingredients I have thought about adding to these bases are (not necessarily at the same time):
-vegetable glycerin
-essential oils of my choice (some impart shine)
-molasses
-honey
-aloe vera in powder form (also available on these websites)
-herbal infusions such as marshmallow, etc.
-carrier oils of my choice (jojoba, camellia, borage, olive, etc.)

I think it would be fun to experiment to find out what my hair needs are. On the flipside it could potentially be frustrating. I hope members who have already experimented come across this post to shares the pros and cons.

ETA: I read that Broccoli Seed Oil behaves similarly to Silicone.

[CailinNua]

Hi there,

I'm not sure if this site (http://www.aromantic.co.uk/Hair-Bath--Detergents-Page-1.htm) will be any use to you but it sells ingredients for making your own products and it describes what each ingredient is used for. It also has some instruction pdfs and courses in natural hair and skin care. I've no connection with them apart form having bought coconut oil etc from them.

I've been toying with the idea of trying to make my own conditioner, just a small batch so I don't need preservative. I was going to include a bit of coconut oil as it seems to help shine, softness, strength and tangles. Honey seems to help with shine, softness and gives a good consistency when I add it to mixes. And it's a humectant so depending on humidity I guess it's moisturising.

The only thing I've heard of helping with wave is amla - maybe I should use a bit of that as I'd like to improve my natural wave. My hair is so fine that the wave seems to drop out quickly. Maybe some yoghurt for protein - my hair seems to like protein, it gives a bit of strength and body to the fine roots especially. Knowing me, I'd add a wee drop of white vinegar although the honey, amla and yoghurt are acidic anyway.

If I get around to trying it, I'll let you know if it does anything good to my hair! I'd be interested to know how you get on too. Good luck!

[K_Angel]

I share the same frustrations with you and will add that the expense of prepared conditioner is a bit much because I prefer the fragrance free all natural versions.

Conditioner bases are available as are the ingredients that make them and some have reviews written about their performance. I have the websites in my bookmarks (will post them here later). I think they are a great idea. The websites point out what percentage of eo's can be added.

Ingredients I have thought about adding to these bases are (not necessarily at the same time):
-vegetable glycerin
-essential oils of my choice (some impart shine)
-molasses
-honey
-aloe vera in powder form (also available on these websites)
-herbal infusions such as marshmallow, etc.
-carrier oils of my choice (jojoba, camellia, borage, olive, etc.)

I think it would be fun to experiment to find out what my hair needs are. On the flipside it could potentially be frustrating. I hope members who have already experimented come across this post to shares the pros and cons.

ETA: I read that Broccoli Seed Oil behaves similarly to Silicone.
It's true it could be frustrating, but at least I would feel I was on the right side of trying. You know?

With commercial brands it seems that they have most of the ingredients that are great for my hair, but they just had to add that one thing that doesn't work....

I think because I've gone through bottle after bottle of trying so many... I think I"m ready for a little experimentation. Or at the very least I don't feel so afraid to try it now. Before I would have been so intimidated by it. Now I sort of welcome just adding one ingredient at a time to see what works and what doesn't. :)

Like you, I really want to add some lovely glycerin into the mix. And I'm not a big color/fragrance person, so I like the idea of it being stripped down to basics. Besides, I could make it smell like coconut or roses... and that would be soooooooooooooo nice! :)

I also like the idea of adding only a little camellia japonica oil, which is the only one that doesn't do funky things to my hair.

I've never tried broccoli oil.... and to tell the truth, I find it somehow very funny to think of someone squeezing a broccoli to see if it had oil they could use. :rollin: Ok, maybe it's just late and it hit my funny bone??? :)


Hi there,

I'm not sure if this site (http://www.aromantic.co.uk/Hair-Bath--Detergents-Page-1.htm) will be any use to you but it sells ingredients for making your own products and it describes what each ingredient is used for. It also has some instruction pdfs and courses in natural hair and skin care. I've no connection with them apart form having bought coconut oil etc from them.

I've been toying with the idea of trying to make my own conditioner, just a small batch so I don't need preservative. I was going to include a bit of coconut oil as it seems to help shine, softness, strength and tangles. Honey seems to help with shine, softness and gives a good consistency when I add it to mixes. And it's a humectant so depending on humidity I guess it's moisturising.

The only thing I've heard of helping with wave is amla - maybe I should use a bit of that as I'd like to improve my natural wave. My hair is so fine that the wave seems to drop out quickly. Maybe some yoghurt for protein - my hair seems to like protein, it gives a bit of strength and body to the fine roots especially. Knowing me, I'd add a wee drop of white vinegar although the honey, amla and yoghurt are acidic anyway.

If I get around to trying it, I'll let you know if it does anything good to my hair! I'd be interested to know how you get on too. Good luck!
Oh thank you very much for the URL! It's exactly what I was looking for. I'm trying to "educate" myself on what is what... and that's the kind of thing that explains how it all works! :blossom:

I wonder how one would add amla to a conditioner? Would you have to make it a paste and add it or??? Hmmmmm.... :)

I noticed on one of the sites that sold "make your own" conditioner that they had some sort of protein you can buy to add to your mix. I was thinking, since my hair likes a little bit of protein, that I would try that too.

I think I"m getting more and more excited about the idea of trying to make a "formula" just suited for my hair. Plus, I was thinking the advantage would definitely be that since seasonally I have slightly different hair needs... I could adjust that too.

After a bit more research... I really think I'm going to try it! :)

Also, just FYI, there's a 2a/F thread and I know they'd be interested in hearing what all you've tried and has worked or not worked. :)

[karli]

450 ml destilled water
20 g stearamidopropyl dimethylamine(emulsifier)
12 g cetylalkohol
10 g jojoba
5 ml glycerin
paraben
lactic acid

This is what I am experimenting with. Right now, I use shea instead of jojoba and an other preservative. There are so many things you can change and by adding and removing small quantities you get big differences in the result.

[K_Angel]

450 ml destilled water
20 g stearamidopropyl dimethylamine(emulsifier)
12 g cetylalkohol
10 g jojoba
5 ml glycerin
paraben


This is what I am experimenting with. Right now, I use shea instead of jojoba and an other preservative. There are so many things you can change and by adding and removing small quantities you get big differences in the result.
This is the base conditioner I was thinking of using:

Cetyl Alcohol, Stearyl Alcohol, Stearalkonium Chloride, Dimethyl Stearamine, Lactic Acid

And then adding from there.

I'm wondering how do I know when I am done adding things if it safe to put on my hair? Is there a pH that I have to be careful about?

Off topic: The picture of you and your daughter in your siggy is absolutely darling! :)

Thank you for your recipe! :blossom:

[karli]

This is the base conditioner I was thinking of using:

Cetyl Alcohol, Stearyl Alcohol, Stearalkonium Chloride, Dimethyl Stearamine, Lactic Acid

And then adding from there.

I'm wondering how do I know when I am done adding things if it safe to put on my hair? Is there a pH that I have to be careful about?

Off topic: The picture of you and your daughter in your siggy is absolutely darling! :)

Thank you for your recipe! :blossom:

Thanks for the compliment! She is most of the time a darling...

Yes, there is a ph to think about. With stearamidopropyl you have to add 0.5 to 1.0% lactic acid or citric acid to adjust the PH. With your other ingredience I don`t know. I suppose it would be possible to get something to measure the PH(lacmus?) but as I`ve used my reciepe for a while and it seems to work, I haven`t felt the need. I think as long as I don`t change the proportions between stearamidopropyl and the lactic acid it works.

[K_Angel]

Thanks for the compliment! She is most of the time a darling...

Yes, there is a ph to think about. With stearamidopropyl you have to add 0.5 to 1.0% lactic acid or citric acid to adjust the PH. With your other ingredience I don`t know. I suppose it would be possible to get something to measure the PH(lacmus?) but as I`ve used my reciepe for a while and it seems to work, I haven`t felt the need. I think as long as I don`t change the proportions between stearamidopropyl and the lactic acid it works.
Yes, I see your point. :)

I think that maybe you're right about a litmus test would help me be sure too. :)

Ok, from another thread I found this website: http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com

And of all the bases I liked theirs the best for my hair.

I want to run past everyone what I want to use in it and see if it's proper or not. I never thought I'd be making my own conditioner, but out of desperation I think it's the only thing left for me to do.

The dry base is:

Cetyl Alcohol
Stearyl Alcohol
Stearalkonium Chloride
Dimethyl Stearamine
Lactic Acid

What I'd like to add to it is the following:

(concentrated conditioner) = 5%
FO = 2%
Germaben II = 2%
distilled water = 85%
cyclomethicone = 2%
Glycerin = 5%


What I'm wondering is will any of these ingredients interact with the others to make this unsafe for my hair? Have I missed anything?

With so many hair disasters with other conditioners I just don't want to fry my hair on my own mixture. :sigh: I just want something that works...

[CailinNua]

Oh thank you very much for the URL! It's exactly what I was looking for. I'm trying to "educate" myself on what is what... and that's the kind of thing that explains how it all works! :blossom:

I wonder how one would add amla to a conditioner? Would you have to make it a paste and add it or??? Hmmmmm.... :)

I noticed on one of the sites that sold "make your own" conditioner that they had some sort of protein you can buy to add to your mix. I was thinking, since my hair likes a little bit of protein, that I would try that too.

I think I"m getting more and more excited about the idea of trying to make a "formula" just suited for my hair. Plus, I was thinking the advantage would definitely be that since seasonally I have slightly different hair needs... I could adjust that too.

After a bit more research... I really think I'm going to try it! :)

Also, just FYI, there's a 2a/F thread and I know they'd be interested in hearing what all you've tried and has worked or not worked. :)
You're more than welcome! :)

Not sure about the amla but whenever I get around to giving this a try I might just put some of the powder in the mx and see what sort of consistency I end up with. A sort of trial and error approach! :D

I must check out that thread - thanks for pointing me at it.

Good luck with your experiment!

[pinchbeck]

450 ml destilled water
20 g stearamidopropyl dimethylamine(emulsifier)
12 g cetylalkohol
10 g jojoba
5 ml glycerin
paraben
lactic acid

This is what I am experimenting with. Right now, I use shea instead of jojoba and an other preservative. There are so many things you can change and by adding and removing small quantities you get big differences in the result.
Does your formula work well for detangling?

[Mannaz]

Hey everyone, this is my first post :) Things I use in my homemade conditioners are:

cocoa butter/shea butter
oils (usually joboba, sometimes almond, sometimes a combo of jojoba, camellia/argan oil)
bmts- emulsifier
water or some sort of tea

Those are the base ingredients, after making the base I add some of these depending on what type of conditioner I want:

amla
honey
EO's, orange, ylang ylang (good for dry hair!), rose etc.
hydrolized wheat protein

So they are very simple, natural and have no preservatives (though I've heard that tea-tree EO can be used as a natural preservative, I should try it). Amla was very good, it made my hair very soft, I really recommend mixing amla into any conditioner.

The btms is the only emulsifier I've used and I really like it because it makes the condish rich in texture and gives good slip. With those ingredients the condish usually is pretty thick, heavy and nourishing, excellent for my damaged ends... I never buy conditioner other than for COing, so for me self-made products are the special treats for my hair.

Happy cooking, it's so much fun :)

[karli]

Does your formula work well for detangling?

My hair doesn`t really tangle, but dd:s does. I co, she uses sc, and it does detangle her hair but it worked much better with jojobaoil for her. Jojoba made her hair feel more slippery, whilst shea is better for my frizz.

It works as good/better as any bought conditioner as I can twist it to suit her better. She doesn`t like that it has no perfume added or that it sometimes has a bit of grandpa smell(rosemary).

[K_Angel]

Hey everyone, this is my first post :) Things I use in my homemade conditioners are:

cocoa butter/shea butter
oils (usually joboba, sometimes almond, sometimes a combo of jojoba, camellia/argan oil)
bmts- emulsifier
water or some sort of tea

Those are the base ingredients, after making the base I add some of these depending on what type of conditioner I want:

amla
honey
EO's, orange, ylang ylang (good for dry hair!), rose etc.
hydrolized wheat protein

So they are very simple, natural and have no preservatives (though I've heard that tea-tree EO can be used as a natural preservative, I should try it). Amla was very good, it made my hair very soft, I really recommend mixing amla into any conditioner.

The btms is the only emulsifier I've used and I really like it because it makes the condish rich in texture and gives good slip. With those ingredients the condish usually is pretty thick, heavy and nourishing, excellent for my damaged ends... I never buy conditioner other than for COing, so for me self-made products are the special treats for my hair.

Happy cooking, it's so much fun :)
Was it dry Amla that you put into the mix? If so, how did you add it to the "wet" ingredients?

How do you know that your pH is not too high or low in your mix?

How do you know if you have mixed things that aren't supposed to be mixed together?


My hair doesn`t really tangle, but dd:s does. I co, she uses sc, and it does detangle her hair but it worked much better with jojobaoil for her. Jojoba made her hair feel more slippery, whilst shea is better for my frizz.

It works as good/better as any bought conditioner as I can twist it to suit her better. She doesn`t like that it has no perfume added or that it sometimes has a bit of grandpa smell(rosemary).
They had a coconut Fragrance Oil that I was thinking of using in mine. :grin: I really like the smell of coconut hair products.

I'm really interested in making my own conditioner for exactly what you are talking about... being able to put in exactly what my hair wants. And leave out all the things it doesn't want.

I think, my biggest problem is that I had too much Chemistry in school to not be intimidated by just mixing in any old ingredients... but not enough Chemistry to know how to tell if I'm doing it right or wrong.

Does that make sense?

[karli]

They had a coconut Fragrance Oil that I was thinking of using in mine. :grin: I really like the smell of coconut hair products.

I'm really interested in making my own conditioner for exactly what you are talking about... being able to put in exactly what my hair wants. And leave out all the things it doesn't want.

I think, my biggest problem is that I had too much Chemistry in school to not be intimidated by just mixing in any old ingredients... but not enough Chemistry to know how to tell if I'm doing it right or wrong.

Does that make sense?

It does make sense.

My reciept is very simple, I don`t change the proportions between cetylalcohol, stearamid. and lactic acid, I only change the amounts of oil, glycerin and eos. I have also tried with aloe and D-pantenol, but they don`t change the PH.

It is also good to know when to add which ingredience; I mix the water, cetyl, oils, preservative and the stearamid. stir it in a waterbath until it is all melted, take it off the stove, continue to stir and add the rest at about 40 C.

I`ve been thinking about amla lately and will probably try it in january, but then I will just try it as I would a hennagloss - mix it with some already done conditioner

[Mannaz]

Was it dry Amla that you put into the mix? If so, how did you add it to the "wet" ingredients?

How do you know that your pH is not too high or low in your mix?

How do you know if you have mixed things that aren't supposed to be mixed together?

Yes, it was amla powder, I mixed it after making the base (butter, oil, water,emulsifier) and letting it cool down. It mixed in quite well and didn't clump, though I just used a teaspoon. It also gave a brown color to the mix.

As to the ph-thing, that is a very good question,and I hadn't even thought about it! And the answer is, I really don't... The recipe for the base is from a Finnish site where from I buy the ingredients, I guess I have just assumed it must be allright ph-wise too, as it has been otherwise :rolleyes: It would be very interesting to test the ph though, I have no idea how for example different EO's alter the ph.

I'm guessing that by "things that aren't supposed to be mixed together" you mean "things that might have a bad chemical reaction when mixed together" as opposed to "things that will not work well in my hair when used at the same time"?
So far I have operated relying to my common sense and everything I have read, and I haven't experienced any problems with any of the conditioners I've made...The base recipe says you can modify it according to what your hair needs, be the added ingredients herbal powders, hydrolized proteins, panthenol etc.
I'm quite unscientific in my cookings as you might notice, and that's why I use mostly natural products, because it seems safer and more "pure" to me, and I don't have to be very exact with the measurments.

[K_Angel]

It does make sense.

My reciept is very simple, I don`t change the proportions between cetylalcohol, stearamid. and lactic acid, I only change the amounts of oil, glycerin and eos. I have also tried with aloe and D-pantenol, but they don`t change the PH.

It is also good to know when to add which ingredience; I mix the water, cetyl, oils, preservative and the stearamid. stir it in a waterbath until it is all melted, take it off the stove, continue to stir and add the rest at about 40 C.

I`ve been thinking about amla lately and will probably try it in january, but then I will just try it as I would a hennagloss - mix it with some already done conditioner
Oh, I hadn't thought of when I'm supposed to add what. But just like cooking, there is a right and wrong time to add the ingredients to make them blend well. I see.

Ok, so when I write out my recipe, I will have to make it look like I was cooking, so I can say, step one "add this to this." And then step two is....

So, since I'm buying a base from a company that makes it as it's conditioner I will not be changing those important things. And the other ingredients are fine to add or subtract from the recipe as I like? Is that correct?


Yes, it was amla powder, I mixed it after making the base (butter, oil, water,emulsifier) and letting it cool down. It mixed in quite well and didn't clump, though I just used a teaspoon. It also gave a brown color to the mix.

As to the ph-thing, that is a very good question,and I hadn't even thought about it! And the answer is, I really don't... The recipe for the base is from a Finnish site where from I buy the ingredients, I guess I have just assumed it must be allright ph-wise too, as it has been otherwise :rolleyes: It would be very interesting to test the ph though, I have no idea how for example different EO's alter the ph.

I'm guessing that by "things that aren't supposed to be mixed together" you mean "things that might have a bad chemical reaction when mixed together" as opposed to "things that will not work well in my hair when used at the same time"?
So far I have operated relying to my common sense and everything I have read, and I haven't experienced any problems with any of the conditioners I've made...The base recipe says you can modify it according to what your hair needs, be the added ingredients herbal powders, hydrolized proteins, panthenol etc.
I'm quite unscientific in my cookings as you might notice, and that's why I use mostly natural products, because it seems safer and more "pure" to me, and I don't have to be very exact with the measurments.
Yes, you are correct. I meant that I didn't want to mix things that chemically would react bad to each other. But I think what I"m hearing from you and from Karli is that the very basic things I want to add are common to hair and are common to conditioner. Therefore, we kind of know already that they go together. And since I"m starting with a base that I will not be changing, it will be fine to add common things to my mixture. Is this correct?

I would like to thank you both or all your help and patience in answering all of my questions! :flower:

[Mannaz]

Therefore, we kind of know already that they go together. And since I'm starting with a base that I will not be changing, it will be fine to add common things to my mixture. Is this correct?

/>
Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say! I'm sure for example the glycerine you mentioned in one post would work very well. Then after experimenting a bit you can make more complexed mixes if you want to. I must warn you, you can get hooked into this pretty easy...:D Oh, and your very welcome for the answers, let us know how the experiment goes when you get to it!

[K_Angel]

I'm online ordering my supplies now! :grin:

I was noticing that they have preservatives that you can buy:

Germall Plus Liquid (1 gallon is approx. 10.3 lb)

Common Uses:
Preservative.
Soaps. Lotions. Skincare Formulas. Not for Lips.

Points of Interest:
Paraben Free.
Manufacturing Temperatures: No Higher than 122ºF
Formula pH: No Restrictions
Effective Against: Bacteria, Mold, Yeast.
Sold by Weight.

Recommended usage rates are provided only as a guideline for proper preservation. All new formulations should be challenge tested to ensure preservative efficacy.


Directions:
Add to formula when temperature of base is less than 122º F.

Recommended use levels:

Clear Gels: .1-.5%
Laundry Soaps, Fabric Softeners, Dish Soap: .1-.5%
Lotions & Creams, all formulations: 0.1-.5%
Water Based Formulas: .1-.5%

Ingredients:
Propylene Glycol (and) Diazolidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate


I'm assuming the ingredients that they list here are completely compatible with their base?

[karli]

K-Angel, if it is a conditionerbase you get, do you have any instructions on how much destilled water to add? I don`t recognize that preservative, but found this when I searched http://www.lotioncrafter.com/reference/tech_data_liquid_germall_plus.pdf


Mannaz, what is the inci for your emulsifier, bmts?
I must agree with you that it is really easy to get hooked!

[K_Angel]

K-Angel, if it is a conditionerbase you get, do you have any instructions on how much destilled water to add? I don`t recognize that preservative, but found this when I searched http://www.lotioncrafter.com/reference/tech_data_liquid_germall_plus.pdf


Mannaz, what is the inci for your emulsifier, bmts?
I must agree with you that it is really easy to get hooked!
If I remember right you add 5% base and add the rest in distilled water. Apparently, you can use it as is. However, there are other things I'd like to add to it and see what combination works best for my hair. :)

Thank you for the information on the preservative! :grin:

The funny part of the whole thing.... (Oh, I ordered my stuff... so it should take about a week to get here because of Christmas.) ... is that I can't seem to find anything that tells me a recipe. What I mean is that it tells me to heat the water till it is hot enough to steam. Then add the dry mix together. And beat it. I understand that, but when is it safe to add the fragrance oil? When do I add the other things I want to put in it?

I've been searching and searching the internet and I must just not know how to google it properly. Because I find many things that have "from scratch" recipes or etc.... but not, when do you add the other ingredients.... :sigh: :confused:

[karli]

Start with a small batch...

I don`t think that eos should be heated, add them when it is cooler( I add them at 40 C), glycerin and preservatives can take some heat. Aloe I wouldn`t heat.

It will be fine!

[K_Angel]

Thanks, Karli! I keep getting myself "hyper" and you guys keep helping me to realize, it's not a big deal! I appreciate it! :flower:

[hetschepetsch]

Would you like to produce a bigger amount of ready conditioner or are you looking for a list of things you can add just before you wash your hair?

For the first one you could try proteince(cereal or silk) all kind of oils(olive, nuts,coconut) esseintial oils, butters( shea, shokoladebean), glycerine, a friend of mine uses sulfur(yes for conditioners not for the scalp), aloe vera gelly, vitmines, herb extracts, algae, rose whater...

If you are producing a last minute mix with things you might have fresh in your kitchen, you can as well add eggyolks, beer, cereal powders, milkproducts, honey(might lighten the collour when used constantly), teas, salt, coffee, and herb extracts, lemon juce...

I hope this is of help!
ana

[K_Angel]

Would you like to produce a bigger amount of ready conditioner or are you looking for a list of things you can add just before you wash your hair?

For the first one you could try proteince(cereal or silk) all kind of oils(olive, nuts,coconut) esseintial oils, butters( shea, shokoladebean), glycerine, a friend of mine uses sulfur(yes for conditioners not for the scalp), aloe vera gelly, vitmines, herb extracts, algae, rose whater...

If you are producing a last minute mix with things you might have fresh in your kitchen, you can as well add eggyolks, beer, cereal powders, milkproducts, honey(might lighten the collour when used constantly), teas, salt, coffee, and herb extracts, lemon juce...

I hope this is of help!
ana
I'm doing the first. And your ideas for ingredients are great! Thanks! :)

[Mannaz]

Karli, this is the inci for the btms emulsifier:

Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Cetyl Alcohol, Butylene Glycol

And wow.. I found this site when searching for the inci, http://www.theherbarie.com/

K Angel, add the EOs after the mix is cooled down, they're not supposed to be heated!

[K_Angel]

Mannaz: Thank you for the tip! I knew FOs had to go in when it was cooler but didn't know EOs were the same. :blossom:

[karli]

Karli, this is the inci for the btms emulsifier:

Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Cetyl Alcohol, Butylene Glycol

And wow.. I found this site when searching for the inci, http://www.theherbarie.com/

K Angel, add the EOs after the mix is cooled down, they're not supposed to be heated!

Powdery feeling? Sounds interesting....
As I have over a kilo of stearamidopropyl etc, I WON`T try a new emulsifier. Right now at least. Which finnish site did you get it from?

[Mannaz]

Powdery feeling? Sounds interesting....
As I have over a kilo of stearamidopropyl etc, I WON`T try a new emulsifier. Right now at least. Which finnish site did you get it from?

It's this site, http://www.tuoksukauppa.net/
They seem to be on a holiday break though. I don't know about it feeling powdery, maybe it does leave that feeling when used in lotions? I also like the btms because it's in pastille form so I can easily measure it in spoonfuls (which was the measurment in the recipe).

[K_Angel]

Karli: After many tries with the base I bought, I found it just wasn't working well on my hair. Two main problems is that it seems to dry my hair out too much and it did not detangle well enough. I'm very disappointed, but I have a few ideas and would like to ask you about them.

Two types of conditioner work ok enough for me. Giovanni Smooth as Silk and Suave Coconut. What I'm wondering is... I bought some things to make my own, can I add them to these and "pretend" that they are my base?

What would help them to give more "slip" and more detangling? And keep the moisture in?

[Spring]

Karli: After many tries with the base I bought, I found it just wasn't working well on my hair. Two main problems is that it seems to dry my hair out too much and it did not detangle well enough. I'm very disappointed, but I have a few ideas and would like to ask you about them.

Two types of conditioner work ok enough for me. Giovanni Smooth as Silk and Suave Coconut. What I'm wondering is... I bought some things to make my own, can I add them to these and "pretend" that they are my base?

What would help them to give more "slip" and more detangling? And keep the moisture in?

Giovanni Smooth as Silk and Suave Coconut are the two conditioners that work well in my hair too. I read in another thread that fenugreek was moisturizing, ...that might be something that would work, but I'm not sure.

[K_Angel]

Giovanni Smooth as Silk and Suave Coconut are the two conditioners that work well in my hair too. I read in another thread that fenugreek was moisturizing, ...that might be something that would work, but I'm not sure.
I've heard of that before. I think it makes things kind of "slimy" for a lack of better word? Would I add it dry? Or mix it in water or something first?

[Spring]

I have never tried it before, but I'm curious. I think someone may have said it has the consistency of cream of wheat, but my memory is foggy right now. That might not be the type of ingredient suitable for what you're trying to accomplish, but I think you're suppose to cook it first :confused:

[Sissy]

Giovanni Smooth as Silk and Suave Coconut are the two conditioners that work well in my hair too. I read in another thread that fenugreek was moisturizing, ...that might be something that would work, but I'm not sure.

ohh... I love Giovanni Smooth and Silk conditioner and wouldn't it be amazing if we could make our own formula?

Fenugreek is supposed to help condition the hair and help prevent hair loss. Here is a recipe for making a fenugreek hair mask with fenugreek seeds (http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Hair-Mask-With-Fenugreek-Seeds). I have not personally tried this recipe but am intrigued.

Regarding Giovanni Smooth as Silk the ingredients are:

Ingredients: Aqua (purified water) with *rosmarinus officinalis (rosemary) extract, *citrus aurantium dulcis (valencia orange) extract, *mangifera indica (mango) extract, *cymbopogon schoeanthus (lemongrass) extract, *ginkgo biloba extract, *echinacea angustifolia extract, *salix alba (willow bark), *macrocystis pyrifera (sea kelp) extract, *chamomilla recutita (matricaria) leaf extract, *lavandula angustifolia (lavender) extract, *citrus grandis (grapefruit) extract, *glycine soja (soybean) extract, cetyl alcohol, stearyl alcohol, hydrolyzed soy protein, centrimonium bromide, butylene glycol, phenoxyethanol, ethylhexylglycerin, fragrance with essential oils. *Certified organic

How could we make something like it? It's a lot of extracts. Which ingredients exactly are giving it it's creamy conditioner consistency?

I'm curious :D

[pinchbeck]

I am quite certain that the emulsifiers/fatty acids (cetyl alcohol, stearyl alcohol) used in this conditioner gives it slip. I am not sure, however, if the ingredients are written in descending order or if that is mandatory or not! When it comes to scent, I prefer my ingredients to include essential oils not fragrance (which is normally synthetic) with added eo's. They should separate fragrance and essential oils with a comma so it doesn't confuse some of us ingredient-list-readers! It would look like this: fragrance, essential oils instead of writing it like (I call it playing with words) fragrance with essential oils.

[K_Angel]

ohh... I love Giovanni Smooth and Silk conditioner and wouldn't it be amazing if we could make our own formula?

Fenugreek is supposed to help condition the hair and help prevent hair loss. Here is a recipe for making a fenugreek hair mask with fenugreek seeds (http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Hair-Mask-With-Fenugreek-Seeds). I have not personally tried this recipe but am intrigued.

Regarding Giovanni Smooth as Silk the ingredients are:

Ingredients: Aqua (purified water) with *rosmarinus officinalis (rosemary) extract, *citrus aurantium dulcis (valencia orange) extract, *mangifera indica (mango) extract, *cymbopogon schoeanthus (lemongrass) extract, *ginkgo biloba extract, *echinacea angustifolia extract, *salix alba (willow bark), *macrocystis pyrifera (sea kelp) extract, *chamomilla recutita (matricaria) leaf extract, *lavandula angustifolia (lavender) extract, *citrus grandis (grapefruit) extract, *glycine soja (soybean) extract, cetyl alcohol, stearyl alcohol, hydrolyzed soy protein, centrimonium bromide, butylene glycol, phenoxyethanol, ethylhexylglycerin, fragrance with essential oils. *Certified organic

How could we make something like it? It's a lot of extracts. Which ingredients exactly are giving it it's creamy conditioner consistency?

I'm curious :D
Well, I"m thinking lately, after several failed "make my own from dry base" conditioners, that since the Giovanni works pretty good, but just isn't quite there... maybe I could use it as a "base" and add things to it.

On sale I can usually pick it up for $4 a bottle. And it's so thick that I always have to add hand fulls of water to my hair to get it to really spread well.

So, my thoughts (and I have no idea how logical they are :shrug: ) are, it would cost a lot to buy all the parts of this conditioner. But what if I use it as a base and add things like chamomile tea for the "water" part of the addition? I'd probably be able to make it about a 50/50 mix, but would start there. I could add other goodies in there as I found they worked for me....

Does this sound reasonable? The other conditioners I'm thinking of using as a "base" are Suave Coconut and Cure Care from Sally's. After shopping around the internet, I've discovered that most "bases" have about the same amount of stuff in them as these do. I'm just toying with these ideas.... but do they sound reasonable????

I mean if I had to stock all those EOs and other ingredients, it would cost a fortune.... and in my small home, which is storage challenged to begin with, I"m not sure I would even know where to put the stuff. It just seems that they are "almost" where I want them to be as far as a conditioner.

Sooooooooooooooooo, does all this sound a bit wacky???? Or do you think it's feasible????


I am quite certain that the emulsifiers/fatty acids (cetyl alcohol, stearyl alcohol) used in this conditioner gives it slip. I am not sure, however, if the ingredients are written in descending order or if that is mandatory or not! When it comes to scent, I prefer my ingredients to include essential oils not fragrance (which is normally synthetic) with added eo's. They should separate fragrance and essential oils with a comma so it doesn't confuse some of us ingredient-list-readers! It would look like this: fragrance, essential oils instead of writing it like (I call it playing with words) fragrance with essential oils.
My hair tangles like it's got a mind of it's own and Giovanni doesn't really take care of my need for slip. I'm thinking "greased piggy," personally! :rollin: But without the weight.

That's why I'm wondering about the Fenugreek stuff? I think I remember reading on the Cassia thread that they used it sometimes in their mixes to make it easier to get out of their hair. :shrug:

I can't complain about Giovanni, it's saved me great hair grief and it's *almost* perfect. But with that 10% not quite right (not quite moisturizing enough and not enough tangle free love) I still stray looking for the greener grass on the other side.

Having tried nearly every conditioner on the planet... well, more like in Oregon, I keep coming back to old faithful. :laugh: But still I want more....... am I greedy? I dunno. :o

I found this here: http://www.cosmeticscop.com/ingredient_dictionary.aspx?lid=506

cetyl alcohol. Fatty alcohol used as an emollient, emulsifier, thickener, and carrying agent for other ingredients. Can be derived naturally, as in coconut fatty alcohol, or synthetically. It is not an irritant and is not related to sd alcohol or ethyl alcohol.

stearyl alcohol. Fatty alcohol used as an emollient and to help keep other ingredients intact in a formulation. See fatty alcohol.

fatty acid. Substance typically found in plant and animal lipids (fat). Fatty acids include compounds such as glycerides, sterols, and phospholipids. They are used in cosmetics as emollients, thickening agents, and, when mixed with glycerin, cleansing agents. Fatty acids are natural components of skin and are components of a complex mixture that makes up the outermost layer that protects the body against oxidative damage (Sources: Free Radical Research, April 2002, pages 471–477; and Journal of Lipid Research, May 2002, pages 794–804). Fatty acids can help supplement the skin’s intercellular matrix. See natural moisturizing factor (NMF).

[Sissy]

I am quite certain that the emulsifiers/fatty acids (cetyl alcohol, stearyl alcohol) used in this conditioner gives it slip. I am not sure, however, if the ingredients are written in descending order or if that is mandatory or not! When it comes to scent, I prefer my ingredients to include essential oils not fragrance (which is normally synthetic) with added eo's. They should separate fragrance and essential oils with a comma so it doesn't confuse some of us ingredient-list-readers! It would look like this: fragrance, essential oils instead of writing it like (I call it playing with words) fragrance with essential oils.

Thanks for the reply. I see what your saying about the fragrance with essential oils and you make a very good point.

Regarding the list of ingredients. I know it is true, for human food products and dog food at least, that the ingredients must be listed in the order in which they are found in a product. That is, the ingredients listed first are the ones the product contains most of. For instance, when looking to purchase a good dog food with a decent amount of protein one might look for high quality meat ingredients near the top of the list... if the dog food didn't list a meat source until like the 4th ingredient it would be a much poorer quality product than one that listed it's first four ingredients as say - turkey, turkey meal, chicken meal, salmon.

However, I am unsure if this law of how you must list your ingredients applies to cosmetic products, such as conditioner. I would think that it should... and actually if the law didn't apply then wouldn't all the shampoos out in the shops list the more favorable ingredients first? Like there are a lot of products sold out there that list nice extracts and nut oils and shea and such but they don't list them until close to the bottom. V05 conditioners for instance usually list biotin, but it's like the last ingredient so I figure their conditioner doesn't actually contain much of it.

If this is true that cosmetics must follow the same rules on how they list their ingredients then Giovanni must contain more extracts than the other stuff, which makes it a very nice product indeed! However, I'm not sure on this and you are right in noticing how they have been sneaky by saying "fragrance with essential oils".


Well, I"m thinking lately, after several failed "make my own from dry base" conditioners, that since the Giovanni works pretty good, but just isn't quite there... maybe I could use it as a "base" and add things to it.

On sale I can usually pick it up for $4 a bottle. And it's so thick that I always have to add hand fulls of water to my hair to get it to really spread well.

So, my thoughts (and I have no idea how logical they are :shrug: ) are, it would cost a lot to buy all the parts of this conditioner. But what if I use it as a base and add things like chamomile tea for the "water" part of the addition? I'd probably be able to make it about a 50/50 mix, but would start there. I could add other goodies in there as I found they worked for me....

Does this sound reasonable? The other conditioners I'm thinking of using as a "base" are Suave Coconut and Cure Care from Sally's. After shopping around the internet, I've discovered that most "bases" have about the same amount of stuff in them as these do. I'm just toying with these ideas.... but do they sound reasonable????

I mean if I had to stock all those EOs and other ingredients, it would cost a fortune.... and in my small home, which is storage challenged to begin with, I"m not sure I would even know where to put the stuff. It just seems that they are "almost" where I want them to be as far as a conditioner.

Sooooooooooooooooo, does all this sound a bit wacky???? Or do you think it's feasible????

I think it's definitely worth a try. However, I have never even tried making my own homemade conditioner. I am not sure what the shelf life of it would be if you were to add natural things because the amount of stabilizers/preservatives or such in the Giovanni base would be reduced. However, I think it's definitely worth a shot. Adding infusion of rooibos or chamomile tea sounds good. To get it more moisturizing you could whip some shea butter with an oil and add that. You could add a bit more of a couple of the extracts or some essential oils. Definitely sounds like a fun experiment.

I would love to make my own conditioner and think using a conditioner as a base sounds like a fantastic idea. I own a huge jug of Cure Care from Sally's and would probably use this as my base because it's inexpensive so if I mess it up I won't feel as guilty. I love my Giovanni and it's a bit pricey, so it would be drastic if I messed that up. I'd probably start with something inexpensive like Cure Care and if it had good results I'd try it with Giovanni.

If you decide to do this let me know your recipe. I am going to be ordering some things from Vitacost in the near future (probably a month or so down the line once I get my order straightened out) and would love to be able to try making my own conditioner with some of the things I order.

I am interested in adding shea butter and some type of oil (camellia, argan, grapeseed, or coconut) as well as some essential oils and maybe vegetable glycerin (I'm still learning more about it). Let's share ideas :)

Sissy


Having tried nearly every conditioner on the planet... well, more like in Oregon, I keep coming back to old faithful. :laugh: But still I want more....... am I greedy? I dunno. :o

Ha, sounds like me. I have TONS of new conditioners to try in my Vitacost shopping cart online right now. I keep finding nice sounding products that I've never tried. I have some different Aubrey Organics conditioners, some JASON varieties I've not yet tried, some Mill Creek Organics, Nature's Gate, Beauty without Cruelty, and so many more! I don't think I'll be satisfied until I've tried every conditioner on the planet! The thing is I get good results with certain products like Giovanni, Yes to Carrots, JASON, and GVP line but I always have this craving to try new conditioners :o

[K_Angel]

Ha, sounds like me. I have TONS of new conditioners to try in my Vitacost shopping cart online right now. I keep finding nice sounding products that I've never tried. I have some different Aubrey Organics conditioners, some JASON varieties I've not yet tried, some Mill Creek Organics, Nature's Gate, Beauty without Cruelty, and so many more! I don't think I'll be satisfied until I've tried every conditioner on the planet! The thing is I get good results with certain products like Giovanni, Yes to Carrots, JASON, and GVP line but I always have this craving to try new conditioners :o
I've been hoovering around the Yes to Carrots bottle at the store..... it's just that my fine hair gets weighed down soooooooooooooooo easily! I'm thinking that it would be too heavy for my hair.

But I'm such an optimist! I always think, surely THIS conditioner will be THE one!!!!! :rollin:

[Spring]

ohh... I love Giovanni Smooth and Silk conditioner and wouldn't it be amazing if we could make our own formula?

Fenugreek is supposed to help condition the hair and help prevent hair loss. Here is a recipe for making a fenugreek hair mask with fenugreek seeds (http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Hair-Mask-With-Fenugreek-Seeds). I have not personally tried this recipe but am intrigued.

Regarding Giovanni Smooth as Silk the ingredients are:

Ingredients: Aqua (purified water) with *rosmarinus officinalis (rosemary) extract, *citrus aurantium dulcis (valencia orange) extract, *mangifera indica (mango) extract, *cymbopogon schoeanthus (lemongrass) extract, *ginkgo biloba extract, *echinacea angustifolia extract, *salix alba (willow bark), *macrocystis pyrifera (sea kelp) extract, *chamomilla recutita (matricaria) leaf extract, *lavandula angustifolia (lavender) extract, *citrus grandis (grapefruit) extract, *glycine soja (soybean) extract, cetyl alcohol, stearyl alcohol, hydrolyzed soy protein, centrimonium bromide, butylene glycol, phenoxyethanol, ethylhexylglycerin, fragrance with essential oils. *Certified organic

How could we make something like it? It's a lot of extracts. Which ingredients exactly are giving it it's creamy conditioner consistency?

I'm curious :D

Oh my goodness, this sounds exciting and since it seems pretty challenging to make the base conditioner, adding ingredients to Giovanni sounds great (especially since buying it at $4.99 a bottle is out of the question for me, this is a great way to stretch it!). But I think that would be a neat project for the year, "finding the ingredients that make creamy conditioner consistency".

[K_Angel]

Oh my goodness, this sounds exciting and since it seems pretty challenging to make the base conditioner, adding ingredients to Giovanni sounds great (especially since buying it at $4.99 a bottle is out of the question for me, this is a great way to stretch it!). But I think that would be a neat project for the year, "finding the ingredients that make creamy conditioner consistency".
Keep me posted on your progress! :)

I'm going to try the chamomile tea in it first. And then go from there. :)

[Spring]

Ingredients: Aqua (purified water) with *rosmarinus officinalis (rosemary) extract, *citrus aurantium dulcis (valencia orange) extract, *mangifera indica (mango) extract, *cymbopogon schoeanthus (lemongrass) extract, *ginkgo biloba extract, *echinacea angustifolia extract, *salix alba (willow bark), *macrocystis pyrifera (sea kelp) extract, *chamomilla recutita (matricaria) leaf extract, *lavandula angustifolia (lavender) extract, *citrus grandis (grapefruit) extract, *glycine soja (soybean) extract, cetyl alcohol, stearyl alcohol, hydrolyzed soy protein, centrimonium bromide, butylene glycol, phenoxyethanol, ethylhexylglycerin, fragrance with essential oils. *Certified organic

How could we make something like it? It's a lot of extracts. Which ingredients exactly are giving it it's creamy conditioner consistency?

I'm curious :D

Okay just a thought.... if we were to get some or most of these extracts (which I know would be expensive), would it be cost efficient to add these to Suave Tropical?


Keep me posted on your progress! :)

I'm going to try the chamomile tea in it first. And then go from there. :)

K Angel, are you going to add the tea to the Giovanni "dry" or prepare the tea, apply it to your hair and then use the Giovanni?

[K_Angel]

Okay just a thought.... if we were to get some or most of these extracts (which I know would be expensive), would it be cost efficient to add these to Suave Tropical?
Yes, this is my exact question too. Using Suave Coconut as the "base" what could we add to it? But that list is really rather formidable. That many ingredients would be a lot.... and from my own experience, it's very hard to get the amounts correct. Since those can be just one drop to half a tsp in amount.... and it makes very very big difference in the effect on the hair. :shrug:

It can be done, but I was surprised how much fiddling it takes.


K Angel, are you going to add the tea to the Giovanni "dry" or prepare the tea, apply it to your hair and then use the Giovanni?
I'm sorry, I meant I'm going to make up a liquid tea and dilute the Giovanni by half. In small experimental amounts. About 2 oz. Giovanni + 2 oz. of liquid Chamomile tea. This will be my first experiment, I think.

Oh, another thought, I have waist length hair and the Giovanni is so concentrated that it only takes about 2 tablespoons of conditioner for my hair. And it's easy to over do it! So, that's why I think it's actually a good thing to try to adapt. I'm not sure how to deal with the fact that it will be rather "liquidy"... but I guess I could always buy some sort of thickener if needed???

Still in the thinking out loud stage! :)

[Spring]

I'm sorry, I meant I'm going to make up a liquid tea and dilute the Giovanni by half. In small experimental amounts. About 2 oz. Giovanni + 2 oz. of liquid Chamomile tea. This will be my first experiment, I think.

Oh, another thought, I have waist length hair and the Giovanni is so concentrated that it only takes about 2 tablespoons of conditioner for my hair. And it's easy to over do it! So, that's why I think it's actually a good thing to try to adapt. I'm not sure how to deal with the fact that it will be rather "liquidy"... but I guess I could always buy some sort of thickener if needed???

Still in the thinking out loud stage! :)

Would the "thickener" be the same as Sissy's thought of "what makes the creamy consistency of conditioner"? Or is there another method for thickening? :p I learn alot when people think out loud :D.

[K_Angel]

Well, Xanthum gum for example... It is a thickener. I know there are others, but I'll have to look into them. :)

[Cheeks1206]

Here's a link for a very simple conditioner/ gel recipe. I haven't tried it yet, but it is something I've been thinking of for a while.
http://www.sustainlane.com/reviews/how-to-make-a-low-cost-hair-conditioner-and-gel/73LC2FJLQNNAQID4RBPS47FMYBC8

[K_Angel]

Here's a link for a very simple conditioner/ gel recipe. I haven't tried it yet, but it is something I've been thinking of for a while.
http://www.sustainlane.com/reviews/how-to-make-a-low-cost-hair-conditioner-and-gel/73LC2FJLQNNAQID4RBPS47FMYBC8
Well, I'm no chemical genius or anything.... so this is just my thoughts on this recipe.... there's nothing to moisturize or otherwise do good things for your hair in this recipe. There's only a thickener and oil. Oil in itself is not moisturizing. It can trap moisture in hair and that's good... but there's nothing in this to particularly be good to your hair.

A person could save all the money and work and just wash their hair and then while wet put the oil in... it would work the same, except the application would be perhaps harder than putting in gel.

Also, her hair pic, looked a bit dry to me... :shrug: Just my uneducated guess.

[Spring]

:p Cheeks do you have any ideas, links on ingredients that moisturize?

:flower: and welcome!

Goodness K, if these companies can make a good conditioner, we should somehow be able to make a comparable homemade version hopefully sometime within a decade :D

[K_Angel]

:rollin: Yes! We can do it!!!!! LOL

There is an all natural thread that talks about how they do it and what they use.... let me see if I can find it for you....

Found it!

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=11750&highlight=conditioner

[Spring]

K Angel,
would any of these conditioner bases at lotioncrafter.com be what we might have in mind. The conditioner bases link is listed on the left hand.

Update: They also have extracts at this site, but I have to see if they have the same extracts that are in Giovanni Smooth as Silk. :)

[K_Angel]

K Angel,
would any of these conditioner bases at lotioncrafter.com be what we might have in mind. The conditioner bases link is listed on the left hand.

Update: They also have extracts at this site, but I have to see if they have the same extracts that are in Giovanni Smooth as Silk. :)
Yes, that's the idea.

Although the one I tried is here:

http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/ProductDetail.aspx?CatalogID=2&GroupID=748&CategoryID=1788&ProductID=4833&ProductName=Crafters+Choice%E2%84%A2++Hair+Conditi oner+Concentrate

It was easy to make up. And can be used as is or added to it. And the dry concentrate is soooooooooo much cheaper for what you get! :)

[Spring]

Wow, great site! And what a deal for the dry concentrate! Did you buy the preservative and the fragrance, or did you make your conditioner without it?

How did you like the conditioner?

[K_Angel]

Wow, great site! And what a deal for the dry concentrate! Did you buy the preservative and the fragrance, or did you make your conditioner without it?

How did you like the conditioner?
Oh I really really enjoy this site! I just ordered another order of some more fun things to try! Liquid Shea, so I don't have to melt it to add to it. Some jojoba and other fun things!

I thought the conditioner, as a base, seemed about like Suave coconut conditioner (without the good smell). It wasn't quite enough moisture, but it was a good conditioner. Didn't fry my hair or anything. Just didn't quite "do it" for me. You know?

I tried adding silk and a cone and still didn't quite get what I wanted. I'm still playing with it, but I started realizing that if Suave Coconut is about the same as this base is, I could make additives to it and see what I got.

Either way, it's all good! :)

I always just have to stop myself from buying too many goodies from that web site! I even bought some melt and pour soap to try! I couldn't resist! LOL

[Sissy]

Oh I really really enjoy this site! I just ordered another order of some more fun things to try! Liquid Shea, so I don't have to melt it to add to it. Some jojoba and other fun things!

I thought the conditioner, as a base, seemed about like Suave coconut conditioner (without the good smell). It wasn't quite enough moisture, but it was a good conditioner. Didn't fry my hair or anything. Just didn't quite "do it" for me. You know?

I tried adding silk and a cone and still didn't quite get what I wanted. I'm still playing with it, but I started realizing that if Suave Coconut is about the same as this base is, I could make additives to it and see what I got.

Either way, it's all good! :)

I always just have to stop myself from buying too many goodies from that web site! I even bought some melt and pour soap to try! I couldn't resist! LOL

Glad to hear you're having good luck with the site. I am very interested in a homemade Giovanni Conditioner recipe :)

[K_Angel]

I wish we had a way of guessing at the percentages in the Giovanni! :)

Oh sorry Spring! I didn't answer all of your questions.... The first time I made up a batch I didn't use the preservative or fragrance. It smells pretty eh but not offensive on it's own.

Since I REALLY like the smell of coconut things, the second time I used coconut FO, preservative and silk. It smelled awesome. I could have used even less than I did of the FO. Made the whole house smell like coconut! Thankfully, my family LIKE that smell! LOL

[Spring]

Sissy and K Angel,
I was thinking a pound of the dry concentrate ($8.95 plus shipping) might make about 15-16 22 oz bottles of conditioner?? It seems like some of the percentages are low for things like silk amino acids (2% ?), so for a 22 oz bottle that would be about .4 of a oz. Giovanni has a pretty big list of extracts, so maybe we could experiment with a few that have qualities of slip and moisture?? Adding extracts to Suave sounds great too!

[K_Angel]

Spring: Yep, that's how I started out, but then I didn't have all the other ingredients to experiment with.

I would make just 4 oz batches and try it on the last 4 inches of hair. That way, I didn't waste too much if it really didn't work and could try more combinations. :)

I don't own any EOs so there wasn't anyway I could try those. But I purchased the silk, preservative and cone (since I thought cones usually work for me) plus added some camellia japonica oil I had (just a couple of drops), 2 drops glycerin, 2 drops of vitamin E.

That was my last combination. But that was all the ingredients I own... :rollin: So ended my experiments for now. :)

Ok, here's the list of the most moisturizing of the Smooth as Silk:

Aqua (Purified Water)
*Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Extract,
*Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Valencia Orange) Extract,
*Mangifera Indica (Mango) Extract,
*Cymbopogon Schoeanthus (Lemongrass) Extract,
*Ginkgo Biloba Extract,
*Echinacea Angustifolia Extract,
*Salix Alba (Willow Bark),
*Macrocystis Pyrifera (Sea Kelp) Extract,
*Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Leaf Extract,
*Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Extract,
*Citrus Grandis (Grapefruit) Extract,
*Glycine Soja (Soybean) Extract,
Cetyl Alcohol,
Stearyl Alcohol,
Hydrolyzed Soy Protein,
Centrimonium Bromide,
Butylene Glycol,
Phenoxyethanol,
Ethylhexylglycerin,
Fragrance with Essential Oils.

Now does anyone know how you get an "extract" as opposed to something else? Does that mean it has to be a distilled thing? And then you collect the water/oil from the stuff being heated? Or am I thinking of something else?


What's the difference between infused, extract, EO, distilled, etc? And can you buy an extract?

Ok, I was looking around the web for how to do an extract and here is what I found:

http://www.ehow.com/how_4488063_make-rosemary-extract.html


80 Proof vodka????!!!!!??? :shocked: Ok, ummmmmmm my family may think catnip/olive oil/mayo is weird and they laugh.... but in a "no alcohol" consumption family.... Can you imagine their shock if I came home with 80 proof Vodka??? :rollin: They'd be in the middle of an "intervention" BEFORE I could say, "it's for my hair!" :rollin:

Also, um, I wonder if extracts are popular because of the "sampling" :laugh:

I was mostly surprised at the fact that it takes about 4 to 6 weeks "pickling" in the Vodka. I'm such a "I want to try it now" person... I'm not sure I could sit there waiting for each of the bottles to "pickle" until I could try them.

Are all extracts alcohol based? The whole bottle of Giovanni is Vodka induced extracts????? :rollin: How is Vodka good for your hair?

Can you imagine how many bottles of Vodka I'd have to buy in order to make my own extracts of that whole list of ingredients.... :rollin:

Please forgive my amusement! I mean no disrespect to people who drink alcohol. I just find the picture of Vodka bottles all over the house a bit funny. :)

[Spring]

Ok, here's the list of the most moisturizing of the Smooth as Silk:

Aqua (Purified Water)
*Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Extract,
*Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Valencia Orange) Extract,
*Mangifera Indica (Mango) Extract,
*Cymbopogon Schoeanthus (Lemongrass) Extract,
*Ginkgo Biloba Extract,
*Echinacea Angustifolia Extract,
*Salix Alba (Willow Bark),
*Macrocystis Pyrifera (Sea Kelp) Extract,
*Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Leaf Extract,
*Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Extract,
*Citrus Grandis (Grapefruit) Extract,
*Glycine Soja (Soybean) Extract,
Cetyl Alcohol,
Stearyl Alcohol,
Hydrolyzed Soy Protein,
Centrimonium Bromide,
Butylene Glycol,
Phenoxyethanol,
Ethylhexylglycerin,
Fragrance with Essential Oils.

Now does anyone know how you get an "extract" as opposed to something else? Does that mean it has to be a distilled thing? And then you collect the water/oil from the stuff being heated? Or am I thinking of something else?


What's the difference between infused, extract, EO, distilled, etc? And can you buy an extract?

Wow, all those are moisturizers? :D I thought the ingredients I bolded would be more for smoothing the cuticle. :p Lol.. if you can figure out how to extract, you'd never have to buy expensive conditioners again!! You can buy extracts at lotioncraft, but I'm not sure if they have all the ones listed above. Hmmm


Are all extracts alcohol based? The whole bottle of Giovanni is Vodka induced extracts????? :rollin: How is Vodka good for your hair?

Can you imagine how many bottles of Vodka I'd have to buy in order to make my own extracts of that whole list of ingredients.... :rollin:

Please forgive my amusement! I mean no disrespect to people who drink alcohol. I just find the picture of Vodka bottles all over the house a bit funny. :)

hahaha.... :rollin: lol
I have to go to Walmart, fry fish and come back and reread the last two comments....:D

[K_Angel]

Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how many you'd need.

I know mango is considered to be moisturizing too.

I remember reading somewhere that all detanglers are higher in acidity. So maybe the citrus stuff in this one is what's doing that too?

That being said then we'd have to add Valencia orange too?

I'm guessing the Ginkgo Biloba Extract, *Echinacea Angustifolia Extract are so your hair doesn't catch cold? :rollin:

Salix Alba (Willow Bark) extract is probably used as an astringent, all good conditioners have to have some sort of "cleanser" in them.. maybe this is one of them?

Macrocystis Pyrifera (Sea Kelp) Extract: is an extract of a giant brown seaweed, Macrocystis Pyrifera, found in the Antarctic. According to research, sea kelp as a whole is thought to be useful in skin care products thanks to its high iodine, vitamin and mineral content. It is considered an anti-septic and anti-irritant that can not only heal sun-damaged skin, but can prevent wrinkles. It is also used in beauty products because of its gelatinous quality that adds shine to hair and glow to skin.

...ok, is it just me? Or who thought, when they saw the giant ugly brown seaweed thing laying there all nasty and such....... hmmmmmmmmm, let's rub that sucker in our hair???? Probably just me? :shrug: :rollin:

Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Leaf Extract: I haven't used the vodka "pickled" extract form :laugh: but I have used the leaves to make a tea rinse before and it does wonders for the hair, so I think this would be a good thing to have as the distilled water part of the conditioner. :)

[vkb247]

Hi all!

This is a really interesting thread! I've been trying to make an all natural conditioner for some time and I am definitely going to use some of the information you ladies have found. I need a conditioner for detangling so I am also curious about what makes conditioners creamy because most of my mixes are just way to watery feeling in my hair.

As for the Giovanni, in my honest opinion, those extracts just make the product ingredient look more appealing to consumers and don't really do much as far as moisturizing is concerned. The ingredient list is worded in a tricky way stating "Aqua with"and then listing the extracts.

Am I making sense? So it is not really that there is a lot of extracts. There is a lot of water that has these extracts in it but they are probably a very small percentage overall. I love Giovanni conditioners but I thing the magic is in the other ingredients which look like a simple base conditioner. I really feel insulted by manufacturers who think it is okay to try to get over on consumers this way.

Elasta QP does something similar with its DPR-11 which my hair also loves.

Ingredients: Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Extract, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Extract, Melissa Officinalis (Balm Mint) Leaf Oil, Tussilago Farfara (Coltsfoot) Flower Extract, Equisetum Arvense Extract, Aesculus Hippocasyanum (Horse Chestnut) Extract, Rosemarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract in Purified Water/Aqua, PetrolatumCetyle Alcohol, Centrimonium Chloride, Dimethicone, Tocopheryl Acetate, Hydroxypropyl trimonium Chloride, Laurus Nobblis Oil, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Oil, Neroli Oil, Ribes Nigrum (Black Currant)

This looks like lots of great extracts but that clincher is the bolded which basically shows that it is all of these extracts in water which makes all the difference. Listing it this way they also make it seem as if there isn't much of the more "unnatural" ingredients because they are so far down the list but that isn't the case at all.

[K_Angel]

Hi all!

This is a really interesting thread! I've been trying to make an all natural conditioner for some time and I am definitely going to use some of the information you ladies have found. I need a conditioner for detangling so I am also curious about what makes conditioners creamy because most of my mixes are just way to watery feeling in my hair.

As for the Giovanni, in my honest opinion, those extracts just make the product ingredient look more appealing to consumers and don't really do much as far as moisturizing is concerned. The ingredient list is worded in a tricky way stating "Aqua with"and then listing the extracts.

Am I making sense? So it is not really that there is a lot of extracts. There is a lot of water that has these extracts in it but they are probably a very small percentage overall. I love Giovanni conditioners but I thing the magic is in the other ingredients which look like a simple base conditioner. I really feel insulted by manufacturers who think it is okay to try to get over on consumers this way.

Elasta QP does something similar with its DPR-11 which my hair also loves.

Ingredients: Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Extract, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Extract, Melissa Officinalis (Balm Mint) Leaf Oil, Tussilago Farfara (Coltsfoot) Flower Extract, Equisetum Arvense Extract, Aesculus Hippocasyanum (Horse Chestnut) Extract, Rosemarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract in Purified Water/Aqua, PetrolatumCetyle Alcohol, Centrimonium Chloride, Dimethicone, Tocopheryl Acetate, Hydroxypropyl trimonium Chloride, Laurus Nobblis Oil, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Oil, Neroli Oil, Ribes Nigrum (Black Currant)

This looks like lots of great extracts but that clincher is the bolded which basically shows that it is all of these extracts in water which makes all the difference. Listing it this way they also make it seem as if there isn't much of the more "unnatural" ingredients because they are so far down the list but that isn't the case at all.


Yes, it makes perfect sense!

Ok, so what would you say is the "base" part of Giovanni's conditioner after water?

[vkb247]

I think that if you had a base with these:
Cetyl Alcohol
Stearyl Alcohol
Hydrolyzed Soy Protein
Centrimonium Bromide
You would have something very similar to Giovanni.

Here is more information about each:


Cetyl alcohol
DescriptionWhite solid or flakes.
UsesCetyl alcohol is a nonionic surfactant used as a hair coating in shampoos and conditioners.
It is used as a water based lubricant for fasteners such as nuts and bolts.
Cetyl alcohol is used as an emollient (skin softener), emulsifier, and thickener in creams and lotions.


Stearyl Alcohol

DescriptionWhite solid or flakes.
UsesStearyl alcohol is a nonionic surfactant used as a hair coating in shampoos and conditioners.
Stearyl alcohol is used as an emollient (skin softener), emulsifier, and thickener in creams and lotions.


Hydrolyzed Soy Protein

Used for hair/skin conditioning. Hydrolyzed proteins are proteins that have been broken down into smaller chains of amino acids.


Centrimonium Bromide

A type of quaternary ammonium salt. Prevents or inhibits the buildup of static electricity. Cetrimonium Chloride and Cetrimonium Bromide also help to cleanse the skin or to prevent odor by destroying or inhibiting the growth of microorganisms and by helping water to mix with oil and dirt so that they can be rinsed away. They also help to form emulsions by reducing the surface tension of the substances to be emulsified and help to distribute or to suspend an insoluble solid in a liquid.

I thought I would post info for the other ingredients as well.

There is some information about how the botanical extracts are used. I like this website (http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org) but didn't feel like looking them all up!:D

Butylene Glycol, or 1,3-Butanediol, dissolves most essential oils and synthetic flavoring substances.

Phenoxyethanol prevents or retards microbial growth, and thus protects cosmetics and personal care products from spoilage.

Ethylhexylglycerin is used as a natural preservative in organic skin care products, this is an organic skin care compound


You may want to look into Trader Joe Nourish ingredients as well because I have that the conditioners are practically the same.

[K_Angel]

Yeah, I hear you... I'm thinking that some of the other ingredients do make some difference, just the base is most of it.

I'll have to keep experimenting on it. :)

Thanks for all the info! :)

[Sissy]

I think that if you had a base with these:
Cetyl Alcohol
Stearyl Alcohol
Hydrolyzed Soy Protein
Centrimonium Bromide
You would have something very similar to Giovanni.

Here is more information about each:


Cetyl alcohol
DescriptionWhite solid or flakes.
UsesCetyl alcohol is a nonionic surfactant used as a hair coating in shampoos and conditioners.
It is used as a water based lubricant for fasteners such as nuts and bolts.
Cetyl alcohol is used as an emollient (skin softener), emulsifier, and thickener in creams and lotions.


Stearyl Alcohol

DescriptionWhite solid or flakes.
UsesStearyl alcohol is a nonionic surfactant used as a hair coating in shampoos and conditioners.
Stearyl alcohol is used as an emollient (skin softener), emulsifier, and thickener in creams and lotions.


Hydrolyzed Soy Protein

Used for hair/skin conditioning. Hydrolyzed proteins are proteins that have been broken down into smaller chains of amino acids.


Centrimonium Bromide

A type of quaternary ammonium salt. Prevents or inhibits the buildup of static electricity. Cetrimonium Chloride and Cetrimonium Bromide also help to cleanse the skin or to prevent odor by destroying or inhibiting the growth of microorganisms and by helping water to mix with oil and dirt so that they can be rinsed away. They also help to form emulsions by reducing the surface tension of the substances to be emulsified and help to distribute or to suspend an insoluble solid in a liquid.

Thanks for the info, vkb. Has anyone tried this base? If so, is it quite similar to Giovanni?

[hennared]

Has anyone here stumbled on the Herbarie site? I buy DIY ingredients here, and just made my first *very successful* conditioner based on this formula:

http://www.theherbarie.com/Amys-Ultra-Conditioning-Conditioner-p-60.html

I used nettle and irish moss tea for water, omitted the wheat protein and glycerin and added silk aminos instead. I did not have the Emester (not sure what it even is). I also added some hyaluronic acid (expensive, but good moisture-grabber that I believe works even in arid climates like mine, where glycerin is not my friend).

Highly recommended :) for thin, dry, wavy, difficult tangly hair!

[K_Angel]

Has anyone here stumbled on the Herbarie site? I buy DIY ingredients here, and just made my first *very successful* conditioner based on this formula:

http://www.theherbarie.com/Amys-Ultra-Conditioning-Conditioner-p-60.html

I used nettle and irish moss tea for water, omitted the wheat protein and glycerin and added silk aminos instead. I did not have the Emester (not sure what it even is). I also added some hyaluronic acid (expensive, but good moisture-grabber that I believe works even in arid climates like mine, where glycerin is not my friend).

Highly recommended :) for thin, dry, wavy, difficult tangly hair!
Would you give us your exact recipe?

Dry, wavy, thin and difficult tangly hair is what I have and I'd like the cure! :)

Karli's recipe is similar:

450 ml destilled water
20 g stearamidopropyl dimethylamine(emulsifier)
12 g cetylalkohol
10 g jojoba
5 ml glycerin
paraben
lactic acid

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=38639

This is the base I started with:

Cetyl Alcohol, Stearyl Alcohol, Stearalkonium Chloride, Dimethyl Stearamine, Lactic Acid

It was a bit drying. I wonder why?


And I wonder what about the formula from Herbaire that is more detangling and more moisturizing?

Anyone good with ingredients that can shed some light on this?

BTMS, what made me think no on this before was because someone said it was powdery? Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe it's powdery BEFORE it's mixed? :confused:

Cure Care Hair and Skin Conditioner, from Sally's was pure evil on my hair and felt "powdery" is the BTMS in this?

Ingredients:
Water, cetyl alcohol (humectant and emulsifier), cetrimonium bromide (cationic conditioning agent, antiseptic, adds shine, one website said it was a preservative), hydrolyzed keratin (hair protein), polymethoxy bicylic oxazolidine (preservative), methylparaben (preservative), propylparaben (preservative), citric acid (PH balancer)

[Spring]

Wow, thanks hennared and vkb247 this is great! Hennared, do you get all your ingredients from theherbarie ?


Cure Care Hair and Skin Conditioner, from Sally's was pure evil on my hair and felt "powdery" is the BTMS in this?

Ingredients:
Water, cetyl alcohol (humectant and emulsifier), cetrimonium bromide (cationic conditioning agent, antiseptic, adds shine, one website said it was a preservative), hydrolyzed keratin (hair protein), polymethoxy bicylic oxazolidine (preservative), methylparaben (preservative), propylparaben (preservative), citric acid (PH balancer)

could the hydrolyzed keratin possibly be the culprit? But then again you said your hair felt powdery and not dry so maybe not. I sprayed Chi Keratin Mist on my hair one day, and my hair felt "ok". I think the directions said you could use daily, so I sprayed again after my next wash, and my hair felt terrible - a "dryish hard" to it.


Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how many you'd need.

I know mango is considered to be moisturizing too.

I remember reading somewhere that all detanglers are higher in acidity. So maybe the citrus stuff in this one is what's doing that too?

That being said then we'd have to add Valencia orange too?

I'm guessing the Ginkgo Biloba Extract, *Echinacea Angustifolia Extract are so your hair doesn't catch cold? :rollin:

Salix Alba (Willow Bark) extract is probably used as an astringent, all good conditioners have to have some sort of "cleanser" in them.. maybe this is one of them?

Macrocystis Pyrifera (Sea Kelp) Extract: is an extract of a giant brown seaweed, Macrocystis Pyrifera, found in the Antarctic. According to research, sea kelp as a whole is thought to be useful in skin care products thanks to its high iodine, vitamin and mineral content. It is considered an anti-septic and anti-irritant that can not only heal sun-damaged skin, but can prevent wrinkles. It is also used in beauty products because of its gelatinous quality that adds shine to hair and glow to skin.

...ok, is it just me? Or who thought, when they saw the giant ugly brown seaweed thing laying there all nasty and such....... hmmmmmmmmm, let's rub that sucker in our hair???? Probably just me? :shrug: :rollin:

Laughing out loud !!! :rollin:
I think the Ginkgo Biloba would be for "follicle memory" to grow more than .5 in per month :D . So, I wonder if people are putting mold and moss on their hair too.

[K_Angel]

Laughing out loud !!! :rollin:
I think the Ginkgo Biloba would be for "follicle memory" to grow more than .5 in per month :D . So, I wonder if people are putting mold and moss on their hair too.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! :idea: That could be it!!!!! :rollin:

I always feel much better when I know my hair has a good memory???? Or not! I haven't always been kind to it... maybe the Ginkgo Biloba Extract isn't such a good idea after all!!! :rollin:


could the hydrolyzed keratin possibly be the culprit? But then again you said your hair felt powdery and not dry so maybe not. I sprayed Chi Keratin Mist on my hair one day, and my hair felt "ok". I think the directions said you could use daily, so I sprayed again after my next wash, and my hair felt terrible - a "dryish hard" to it.
Yeah the Keratin was definitely the source of the dry, nasty rat's nest that was my hair after that. But that funky powder stuff in my hair was weird!

It's funny, my hair likes a little protein, but not too much or it protests LOUDLY! :laugh:

[OhMyCurlz]

All conditioners are mostly water. It doesn't matter how low an ingredient falls on a list it matters what percentage of that ingredient is in the formulation. Extracts don't need to be added at high amounts into a formulation, they aren't supposed to. They're concentrates I guess you could say. The reason why you would not be able to duplicate Giovanni is because you don't know what percentage of ingredients they use in their products. All conditioners have pretty much the same "base", the base doesn't matter...the formulation and percentage does.

To be fair, the wording of their conditioner is probably helping them quite a bit. If it were worded in simpler terms people would just try and duplicate it. Which is extremely insulting to the manufacturer. I certainly wouldn't want someone dissecting my ingredient list to make a duplicate batch....just sayin. Even if they did "stack" their ingredient list...it certainly isn't trickery but more about simply staying in business. We don't know who else reads these forums. Who wants to invest in natural ingredients for a natural conditioner, when someone else can just cut out the hard work, look at your ingredients and make a bootleg batch? That's not fair at all. When I used to make products, this happened to me and I can tell you right now...it's insulting and discouraging. Moreso than you think it is. It takes us time (even large companies like Giovanni) $100 - $1000s of dollars wasted to get the perfect formulation. Natural companies can't afford to be intentionally deceptive. We make less money than larger companies that use chemicals, are the most hounded by the FDA, and are more likely to get people trying to imitate our products...and we are much smaller businesses. We don't profit from being deceptive.

If the extracts/powders/herbs/extract ect is an infusion in water...it's supposed to be at the beginning of the ingredient list. It's actually very difficult to trick consumers with ingredient listings when you have to abide by ridiculously strict FDA regulations.


Hi all!

This is a really interesting thread! I've been trying to make an all natural conditioner for some time and I am definitely going to use some of the information you ladies have found. I need a conditioner for detangling so I am also curious about what makes conditioners creamy because most of my mixes are just way to watery feeling in my hair.

As for the Giovanni, in my honest opinion, those extracts just make the product ingredient look more appealing to consumers and don't really do much as far as moisturizing is concerned. The ingredient list is worded in a tricky way stating "Aqua with"and then listing the extracts.

Am I making sense? So it is not really that there is a lot of extracts. There is a lot of water that has these extracts in it but they are probably a very small percentage overall. I love Giovanni conditioners but I thing the magic is in the other ingredients which look like a simple base conditioner. I really feel insulted by manufacturers who think it is okay to try to get over on consumers this way.

Elasta QP does something similar with its DPR-11 which my hair also loves.

Ingredients: Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Extract, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Extract, Melissa Officinalis (Balm Mint) Leaf Oil, Tussilago Farfara (Coltsfoot) Flower Extract, Equisetum Arvense Extract, Aesculus Hippocasyanum (Horse Chestnut) Extract, Rosemarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract in Purified Water/Aqua, PetrolatumCetyle Alcohol, Centrimonium Chloride, Dimethicone, Tocopheryl Acetate, Hydroxypropyl trimonium Chloride, Laurus Nobblis Oil, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Oil, Neroli Oil, Ribes Nigrum (Black Currant)

This looks like lots of great extracts but that clincher is the bolded which basically shows that it is all of these extracts in water which makes all the difference. Listing it this way they also make it seem as if there isn't much of the more "unnatural" ingredients because they are so far down the list but that isn't the case at all.

[K_Angel]

All conditioners are mostly water. It doesn't matter how low an ingredient falls on a list it matters what percentage of that ingredient is in the formulation. Extracts don't need to be added at high amounts into a formulation, they aren't supposed to. They're concentrates I guess you could say. The reason why you would not be able to duplicate Giovanni is because you don't know what percentage of ingredients they use in their products. All conditioners have pretty much the same "base", the base doesn't matter...the formulation and percentage does.

To be fair, the wording of their conditioner is probably helping them quite a bit. If it were worded in simpler terms people would just try and duplicate it. Which is extremely insulting to the manufacturer. I certainly wouldn't want someone dissecting my ingredient list to make a duplicate batch....just sayin. Even if they did "stack" their ingredient list...it certainly isn't trickery but more about simply staying in business. We don't know who else reads these forums. Who wants to invest in natural ingredients for a natural conditioner, when someone else can just cut out the hard work, look at your ingredients and make a bootleg batch? That's not fair at all. When I used to make products, this happened to me and I can tell you right now...it's insulting and discouraging. Moreso than you think it is. It takes us time (even large companies like Giovanni) $100 - $1000s of dollars wasted to get the perfect formulation. Natural companies can't afford to be intentionally deceptive. We make less money than larger companies that use chemicals, are the most hounded by the FDA, and are more likely to get people trying to imitate our products...and we are much smaller businesses. We don't profit from being deceptive.

If the extracts/powders/herbs/extract ect is an infusion in water...it's supposed to be at the beginning of the ingredient list. It's actually very difficult to trick consumers with ingredient listings when you have to abide by ridiculously strict FDA regulations.
I'm sorry if I implied I wished to copy their formula or try to steal from Giovanni in any way. :(

I was just looking at my own ideas and wanting to make something uniquely mine. Or even buying more Giovanni to use as my "base" (because it's *almost* right) and adding more things to it.

I apologize profusely, if I gave any other impression. :o

~~~~~~~

By the way, do you still make your own conditioner???? I'd like to ask a few questions, but in no way want to offend you. Or if shipping wouldn't be too expensive would you be able to make me a special blend? I'm having so much trouble with hair and I would really like to come up with a combo that would work for my finicky hair. PM me if you'd be interested in making me something. :)

[hennared]

Hi guys -

Sorry I don't have time right now to explain more properly (I'm a grad student with deadlines this week!).. but yes, I got all my goodies at the Herbarie, save essential oils and the jojoba which I had from elsewhere. I think the guar silk that the Herbarie sells is part of the slipperyness that formula lends.. it seemed pretty slippery to me, when I was using it! It's a powder that becomes gooey upon heating.

I think I forgot to mention I added plantago extract, which I think is a bit moisturizing. The irish moss definitely gives some slip (I used maybe a scant Tbsp of it in the amount of water, so ~ 16 ounces of water). As for detangling.. you do notice there is some Dimethicone in the Herbarie formula, right? I decided I don't mind using cones so much if I am controlling the amount (and type).

Oh, the BTMS was in little beads, before melting.. it mixed up really well for me though, with the jojoba and some heat.

This mix I made, it feels weird on my hair to start, almost a touch 'plasticky', but once my hair dries, it's great.

A comment on proteins - my hair LOVES silk amino acids, but keratin and I don't always get along - I get the crunchies easily with it.

Sorry this post is a bit scatterbrained; I'll try to be more focused next time!

oh, hey, don't laugh at the seaweeds in the hair.. they work! I had bought some pricey 'sea kelp ferment' a while ago and added it to some hair concoctions. Wow, it helped the dryness! But it's a high price to pay for that stuff, I went through it pretty quick, at something like $14 an OUNCE (I think yes it was that bad.. I forget and don't want to remember how much it was!)

[K_Angel]

oh, hey, don't laugh at the seaweeds in the hair.. they work! I had bought some pricey 'sea kelp ferment' a while ago and added it to some hair concoctions. Wow, it helped the dryness! But it's a high price to pay for that stuff, I went through it pretty quick, at something like $14 an OUNCE (I think yes it was that bad.. I forget and don't want to remember how much it was!)
Oh, kelp stuff works in my hair too and I take iodine tablets, so I'm not arguing it's effectiveness!! :laugh:

But I still can't help thinking, before anyone knew for sure what it would do, who would want to stick it on their head????????? :shocked: :rollin:

[Spring]

Hi guys -

Sorry I don't have time right now to explain more properly (I'm a grad student with deadlines this week!).. but yes, I got all my goodies at the Herbarie, save essential oils and the jojoba which I had from elsewhere. I think the guar silk that the Herbarie sells is part of the slipperyness that formula lends.. it seemed pretty slippery to me, when I was using it! It's a powder that becomes gooey upon heating.

I think I forgot to mention I added plantago extract, which I think is a bit moisturizing. The irish moss definitely gives some slip (I used maybe a scant Tbsp of it in the amount of water, so ~ 16 ounces of water). As for detangling.. you do notice there is some Dimethicone in the Herbarie formula, right? I decided I don't mind using cones so much if I am controlling the amount (and type).

Oh, the BTMS was in little beads, before melting.. it mixed up really well for me though, with the jojoba and some heat.

This mix I made, it feels weird on my hair to start, almost a touch 'plasticky', but once my hair dries, it's great.

A comment on proteins - my hair LOVES silk amino acids, but keratin and I don't always get along - I get the crunchies easily with it.

Sorry this post is a bit scatterbrained; I'll try to be more focused next time!

hennared, I hope the pressure is over for the week :)!
Plantago extract sounds good
Irish moss sounds good
(I just finished commenting on moss :laugh:
I've heard great things about silk amino acids
(this is definitely my next purchase)
and Keratin is something that does well in my hair if I use it maybe every 8 weeks or so. I'm always amazed when I hear that some people can use it regularly.

[K_Angel]

hennared: With the BTMS beads... When you finally had the mixture complete, did the conditioner you made feel powdery or anything? I just wanted to make sure that was not what was in Cure Care Conditioner that you can get at Sally's.

I had read that BTMS makes lotions feel powdery. I'm not sure I understand why you get a powdery feel from a liquid?? But maybe I was misunderstanding what was said on the web?

[vkb247]

This website has lots of great products including Botanical additives in powder form http://www.organic-creations.com/servlet/StoreFront

[hennared]

vbk247 - oh the pressure is relentless until the semester is over!
But thanks :) Yeah, keratin is one to go easy on, for the proteins. I'm still trying to figure my hair out with proteins.. I think my hair has become rather porous on the ends (not sure why .. I don't do damaging things to it - might be the hormonal madness that took away a lot of my hair the past two years :( ) Anyway, so I need proteins I think, but not just any ol' ones. My hair likes collagen containing products, I've been on a hunt to buy pure hydrolized collagen for my own creations, but no luck, yet.

K_ANgel, I do not feel any powderyness to my homemade conditioner with the BTMS; it's really rather slippery. The weirdness is a heavy sort of slickness I feel in my hair when it's wet, but it goes away when dry. My ends seem a good bit better than they were since I made up my batch and have been using it every wash!

[K_Angel]

vbk247 - oh the pressure is relentless until the semester is over!
But thanks :) Yeah, keratin is one to go easy on, for the proteins. I'm still trying to figure my hair out with proteins.. I think my hair has become rather porous on the ends (not sure why .. I don't do damaging things to it - might be the hormonal madness that took away a lot of my hair the past two years :( ) Anyway, so I need proteins I think, but not just any ol' ones. My hair likes collagen containing products, I've been on a hunt to buy pure hydrolized collagen for my own creations, but no luck, yet.

K_ANgel, I do not feel any powderyness to my homemade conditioner with the BTMS; it's really rather slippery. The weirdness is a heavy sort of slickness I feel in my hair when it's wet, but it goes away when dry. My ends seem a good bit better than they were since I made up my batch and have been using it every wash!
Slippery is GOOD! :) Are you able to keep your waves? :blossom:

[hennared]

Waves, yes, waves, good! Though, with my homemade conditioner, I have to work a bit harder to accentuate my waves, it seems to be a touch less wavy unless I do. I started using Aubrey's B-Design gel, that stuff accentuates my waves pretty well by using a bit and 'scrunching' my hair while wet; and it doesn't leave my hair feeling sticky and nasty.

[Spring]

vbk247 - oh the pressure is relentless until the semester is over!
But thanks :) Yeah, keratin is one to go easy on, for the proteins. I'm still trying to figure my hair out with proteins.. I think my hair has become rather porous on the ends (not sure why .. I don't do damaging things to it - might be the hormonal madness that took away a lot of my hair the past two years :( ) Anyway, so I need proteins I think, but not just any ol' ones. My hair likes collagen containing products, I've been on a hunt to buy pure hydrolized collagen for my own creations, but no luck, yet.

K_ANgel, I do not feel any powderyness to my homemade conditioner with the BTMS; it's really rather slippery. The weirdness is a heavy sort of slickness I feel in my hair when it's wet, but it goes away when dry. My ends seem a good bit better than they were since I made up my batch and have been using it every wash!

Same here, I don't know if collagen is having this effect on my hair or if hair naturally does this, but when I'm washing my hair and take a shed strand, I can pull it and the strand will boing back like a rubberband, instead of stretching without returning. I'm thinking the elastic effect on my hair when wet is the collagen, which for my dry chemically treated hair, is very needed. I use Cantu shea butter leave in conditioning repair cream (some may not like this cream for their hair type), but I'd like to find other sources of collagen as well.

[cardamom]

if u can stand the smell of eggs,this is a wonderful recipe!

you need-
1.20 ml glycerine
2.2 eggs
3.2.5 ml olive oil
4.2.5 ml virgin coconut oil
5.5 ml honey


blend these in a mixer for 1 minute and apply it to shampooed half dried hair.

massage onto scalp and hair for 10 min.

sit at ease with a shower cap on ur head.

you can heat the hair over the shower cap with a blow drier or steamer for 5 minutes.

this helps the nutrients to nourish ur hair.

wash it off with cold water :)

shampoo again only after 3 days.:)

[K_Angel]

Same here, I don't know if collagen is having this effect on my hair or if hair naturally does this, but when I'm washing my hair and take a shed strand, I can pull it and the strand will boing back like a rubberband, instead of stretching without returning. I'm thinking the elastic effect on my hair when wet is the collagen, which for my dry chemically treated hair, is very needed. I use Cantu shea butter leave in conditioning repair cream (some may not like this cream for their hair type), but I'd like to find other sources of collagen as well.


I found some collagen here: http://www.theherbarie.com/search.php?mode=search

But I have no idea if that's hair safe or how to use the stuff.... I just happened to run across it. :blossom:

[K_Angel]

hennared: Did you already post your recipe for your way of making the conditioner with percentages everything? Maybe I just missed it? :o

[Roseann70]

New Here...but this thread really caught my interest. I have been researching homemade shampoo and conditioner for the last 2 months. I currently make handmade soap and and wandered into the world of shampoo and conditioner bars. They are in solid form and contain no water. Has anyone here tried formulating these. A good place to start with your formulations can be found here (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/06/solid-conditioner-bar-recipe.html).
I buy most of my ingredients from the herbarie and a few other places. I LOVE the herbaries website because it explains very thoroughly each ingredient. I have started with the formula Swift has on her blog and have been making small batches alternating ingredients until I get it just the way MY hair likes.

She also has a very good tutorial on surfactants for the shampoo bars and that can be found here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1020026/surfactanttutorialthingie.pdf). Her blog is a plethora of great information!
I have been conducting my experiments and keeping copious notes on what works and what doesn't work.
The ingredients can get to be quite costly but I was spending that anyway on various shampoos and conditioners so I figured what the hell! I am in love with these bars....they require no packaging, travel well and do the job!

[Spring]

I found some collagen here: http://www.theherbarie.com/search.php?mode=search

But I have no idea if that's hair safe or how to use the stuff.... I just happened to run across it. :blossom:

Hey this is a really great site! I was looking for collagen and so far everything seems to be for skin and anti-aging, so I'm completely side tracked :laugh: :p Okay, I haven't seen collagen so far, just key components that synthesize into collagen or help to protect from collagen loss. So I'm going back to the site to look around some more :flower:


New Here...but this thread really caught my interest. I have been researching homemade shampoo and conditioner for the last 2 months. I currently make handmade soap and and wandered into the world of shampoo and conditioner bars. They are in solid form and contain no water. Has anyone here tried formulating these. A good place to start with your formulations can be found here (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/06/solid-conditioner-bar-recipe.html).
I buy most of my ingredients from the herbarie and a few other places. I LOVE the herbaries website because it explains very thoroughly each ingredient. I have started with the formula Swift has on her blog and have been making small batches alternating ingredients until I get it just the way MY hair likes.

She also has a very good tutorial on surfactants for the shampoo bars and that can be found here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1020026/surfactanttutorialthingie.pdf). Her blog is a plethora of great information!
I have been conducting my experiments and keeping copious notes on what works and what doesn't work.
The ingredients can get to be quite costly but I was spending that anyway on various shampoos and conditioners so I figured what the hell! I am in love with these bars....they require no packaging, travel well and do the job!

Wow, do you mind sharing what you use to make your conditioner? :)

Update. WELCOME!! :flower:

[Roseann70]

i am using the following (which is not my original recipe).....it is similiar but tweaked from the blog
HEATED PHASE Incroquat CR (pastiles) cetyl alcohol cocoa butter shea butter Broccoli Seed oil - Camellia Seed Oil

COOL DOWN PHASE Solu-Silk SF honeyquat panthenol dimethicone cyclomethicone cetrimonium chloride fragrance or essential oil
I use silicone baking molds to mold these up...just pop them in the freezer for about 45 min and then pop them out to air dry overnight.
I took each one of these ingredients and created a spreadsheet where I keep my detailed notes....like the properties that each ingredient lends to my hair. The INCI name, company I order from etc....
I am still in the formulating stages so I am tweaking this recipe to get it exactly how I like it!
It is a current work in progress ...i make them tester size and have given them out to my friends for feedback.

[Athena's Owl]

i think I want to throw my hat into this ring because I'm having a heck of a time finding a hair conditioner that *does not have*

glycerin
protein
silicone
panthenol

so i went to my soapmakers to buy some cocoa betaine (because i'm having the same trouble with shampoo, but i figure that a little of that watered down or mixed with a conditioner would be a useful clarifying wash)

I also bought camellia seed oil and some more shea butter, for further experiments and tolerance and the like.

and then i saw a bag of cetyl alchohol, and went ahead and bought it. so now I'm all great, what do I do with this?

[Roseann70]

Athena, you can simply leave those ingredients out. They make up such a small percentage...I would just up the percentages on the ingredients you do like.

[Athena's Owl]

Awesome! but can i mix a conditioner with just cetyl alchohol and water? I got the idea that i could not...

[Roseann70]

are you trying to make a liquid conditioner or a conditioner bar?

[Athena's Owl]

a liquid conditioner.

conditioner bars are massive superfail for me. i have a ton of very curly nonporous hair, so a liquid formula is way better for distribution of the product.

[K_Angel]

New Here...but this thread really caught my interest. I have been researching homemade shampoo and conditioner for the last 2 months. I currently make handmade soap and and wandered into the world of shampoo and conditioner bars. They are in solid form and contain no water. Has anyone here tried formulating these. A good place to start with your formulations can be found here (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/06/solid-conditioner-bar-recipe.html).
I buy most of my ingredients from the herbarie and a few other places. I LOVE the herbaries website because it explains very thoroughly each ingredient. I have started with the formula Swift has on her blog and have been making small batches alternating ingredients until I get it just the way MY hair likes.

She also has a very good tutorial on surfactants for the shampoo bars and that can be found here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1020026/surfactanttutorialthingie.pdf). Her blog is a plethora of great information!
I have been conducting my experiments and keeping copious notes on what works and what doesn't work.
The ingredients can get to be quite costly but I was spending that anyway on various shampoos and conditioners so I figured what the hell! I am in love with these bars....they require no packaging, travel well and do the job!
Thank you for the links to the blog! I'll have to do some reading there. :)

What type of hair do you have?


Hey this is a really great site! I was looking for collagen and so far everything seems to be for skin and anti-aging, so I'm completely side tracked :laugh: :p Okay, I haven't seen collagen so far, just key components that synthesize into collagen or help to protect from collagen loss. So I'm going back to the site to look around some more :flower:
Sorry about that.... I saw the word collagen and thought it was what you were looking for. :o

[Roseann70]

K-angel I am not to sure of the correct numbering system used here to describe my hair...but you can see it in my avatar. It's pretty thick and has been chemically treated for the last 5 years. I am awaiting the arrival of my henna anyday now because I am starting to gray and I am tired of the chemicals.

Athena can you give me a rundown of what ingredients you do have for your conditioner?

[Athena's Owl]

well, i have just the cetyl alchohol and distilled water, stuff for fragrance. i bought some camellia seed oil and some shea butter too.

i can get my hands on soapmaking supplies locally at soapandmore.com.

[Roseann70]

Athena, I am not to sure if you can make a liquid conditioner out of cetyl alone. Please take a look at this tutorial (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1020026/conditionertutorialthingie.pdf) on page 3 she gives the percentage's for a basic conditioner recipe using 3 ingredients.

Cetyl alcohol is an emulsifier you need to be emulsifying something with it. Not just water. It makes and thickens emulsions depending on the percentage you use. It will aid in keeping your water and oils well blended but I think you may want to invest in some BTMS (http://www.theherbarie.com/BTMS-Conditioning-Emulsifier-pr-86.html)(Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol).

[Athena's Owl]

okay! had a bit of a time finding a company that sells it in canada but i did find one. i'm going to put in an order for that so i can start working on my basic conditioner formula, woo!

[Spring]

Sorry about that.... I saw the word collagen and thought it was what you were looking for. :o

That's ok, I was pleasantly distracted :p, so thanks for the link!


if u can stand the smell of eggs,this is a wonderful recipe!

you need-
1.20 ml glycerine
2.2 eggs
3.2.5 ml olive oil
4.2.5 ml virgin coconut oil
5.5 ml honey


blend these in a mixer for 1 minute and apply it to shampooed half dried hair.

massage onto scalp and hair for 10 min.

sit at ease with a shower cap on ur head.

you can heat the hair over the shower cap with a blow drier or steamer for 5 minutes.

this helps the nutrients to nourish ur hair.

wash it off with cold water :)

shampoo again only after 3 days.:)

I'm sorry I missed this post, welcome cardamom :blossom:. Sounds like a great conditioner. I think years ago I use to put eggs in my conditioner and for some reason I stopped (can't remember why though). I might have to try this again soon.:)

[K_Angel]

Athena, I am not to sure if you can make a liquid conditioner out of cetyl alone. Please take a look at this tutorial (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1020026/conditionertutorialthingie.pdf) on page 3 she gives the percentage's for a basic conditioner recipe using 3 ingredients.

Cetyl alcohol is an emulsifier you need to be emulsifying something with it. Not just water. It makes and thickens emulsions depending on the percentage you use. It will aid in keeping your water and oils well blended but I think you may want to invest in some BTMS (http://www.theherbarie.com/BTMS-Conditioning-Emulsifier-pr-86.html)(Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol).
Thank you for the great tutorials! Please post any and all you know of! It's helps so much to know more about the process and ingredients. Anything and everything is greatly appreciated. :flower:

Does anyone know what "cationic self-emulsifier" means in simple English words?

What's the difference between BTMS and BTMS-50????

Found this at: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/07/better-crafting-through-chemistry-cetyl.html

Stearic acid and cetyl alcohol can be used interchangeably, for the most part. I liken a cream with cetyl alcohol to Cool Whip - it's glidier and silkier - whereas I think of a cream with stearic acid as whipped butter - still glidy, but definitely not silky and a lot heavier.

polyquat 7 and honeyquat what are the differences? And is honeyquat really honey? Honey doesn't like my hair very much and vice versa.

[Spring]

polyquat 7 and honeyquat what are the differences? And is honeyquat really honey? Honey doesn't like my hair very much and vice versa.

Great questions. I heard about the honey quat... there is lots to learn :)

[K_Angel]

What do you use for moisture when humectants work against you and suck all of the water out of your hair because of where you live instead of adding the much needed moisture?

Hope no one minds me throwing out questions? I'm reading stuff and trying to understand and these are the questions as they come up..... is that ok with everyone??? :blossom:

[Spring]

Aren't humectants suppose to be some kind of moisture repellent? I try to avoid anything like that. But to put moisture back in while simultaneously using a humectant seems challenging. I would think you would have to switch off for awhile till your hair recovers some.

(I love questions, and learning from others experiences :))

[Roseann70]

K_Angel.....I logged off for the night last night and woke up to all your questions. I am going to try and explain the best I can from my notes I have been keeping. It is still quite a learning process for me as I just recently dived into this world of shampoo & conditioner bars.

cationic- a positively charged ion these are found in conditioners. They reduce foaming action

Humectants help retain and attract moisture to the skin/hair from the atmosphere. Basically they attract moisture. Swifty has a good tutorial on these found here: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/04/lotions-humectants-are-girls-best.html (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/04/lotions-humectants-are-girls-best.html)
so if the humectants you tried in the past didn't seem to work for you then perhaps you just need to find the right one.

Honey- I just love this stuff and so does my skin and hair. I use it alot in my soaps to add just a little more extra moisturizing properties. I usually can buy it local in big large glass jars and that feels good too. I like supporting my fellow local business.

Honeyquat - INCI name: Hydroxypropyltrimonium Honey I have been experimenting with this in my conditioner bars and I have to again say, I LOVE it. It is much thinner in consistency than straight up honey.
Because it is positivly charged it helps by bonding to our negatively charged hair/skin. It does not feel sticky to the touch. It is very lightweight. I am not to sure what it is mixed with but it IS derived from honey. I think it helps with the nice shine my hair has, helps with wet-combing and helps with static electricity. I only use it at 2-3% and that seems to work just fine for me.

polyquat 7 INCI name: Polyquaternium 7- also cationic, I have not played with this ingredient yet but it is on my list of things to order next. From what I have read on this it acts almost the same as the honey quat but is said to aid in curl retention and is to help in reducing color-fade in color treated hair.

ok onto BTMS - INCI Name: Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol
BTMS 50- Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetyl Alcohol (and) Butylene Glycol

BTMS is what I am currently using and I chose this over the BTMS 50 primarily due to cost. BTMS is cheaper. It is half the price per pound than the BTMS 50!
In hair care products it imparts body and spring, also helps with wet combing. You can use it as your sole emulsifier or along with other emulsifiers. It helps in my formulations to properly emulsify the "cones" i like to use. Be forewarned that is does have a fishy odor when you heat it up....I have never noticed it in my final products though. Initially I thought I had bought some bad BTMS when I smelled this! Upon further investigation I read that others smelled the same thing. While it is expensive I still use it up to 60% in my conditioner bars. My next experiment will be to try and lower that percentage and up something else and see if it makes a noticeable difference.

WHEW~ how'd I do?!
It's fun for me to learn all of this stuff. I tell my kids I think I must have been a chemist in my past life because I am loving all this!

[jaine]

I am subscribing to this thread ... looks interesting. :)
I bought some emusifying wax, citric acid, aloe vera gel, apricot kernel oil, and essential oil from mountain rose herbs (http://www.mountainroseherbs.com). I'm not sure which proportions to use yet but I have plenty of time to google it while I wait for the package. :)

[Spring]

Roseann Thanks a bunch!!

[Kirry-Folk]

I haven't read through this entire threat yet, but does anyone have the set of International Cosmetic Ingredient Dictionaries...?

[Athena's Owl]

oh thank goodness i held off on buying the BTMS-50.

Butylene Glycol is a humectant. I'm specifically avoiding them. I was about to cause myself a ton of frustration!

[K_Angel]

Roseann70: You're an absolute sweetie for all your great explanations and help! :flower:

With the humectants, I used glycerin and AVG and both sucked the water out of my hair like it was a water monster. I had to bag my hair in water and keep putting more and more in, until it stopped stripping my hair of water.

Since my goal was to PUT moisture in my hair, I was not very happy with it taking it all out instead. I know that humectants are water attractors but if it's dry in the air, they pull the water out of your hair instead. :(

Are there some that do a better job of keeping the moisture in the hair???? I'm not familiar other humectants.

[Roseann70]

K-Angel.....I have been researching the humectant/dry air thing you mentioned earlier and came across something rather interesting.
I have no problem with anything humectant because I live in NJ. We have humid summers and even are winters are not so dry that it makes a difference to my hair.

Try reading this article I found online that helped to shed a little light on the subject matter for me.

http://juvenescent.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/fall-and-winter-hair-maintenance-part-i/

these is a section in this article that reads

"When the dew point is low, humectants can do the opposite and draw moisture from your hair because there is none to draw from in the atmosphere.
Save your humectant products for moderate to high humidity days."So maybe if you increase your other ingredients like glycerin, honey, glyceryl triacetate, propylene glycol, sorbitol, collagen, or pathenol, castor oil, jojoba oil, cetyl alcohol, shea butter or coconut oil......in your conditioner that may help with the dryness. Where do you live if I may ask?

Si I learned something new today, this was an interesting read for me. Maybe I should work on formulating a conditioner bar for the winter months and upping these ingredients

[K_Angel]

K-Angel.....I have been researching the humectant/dry air thing you mentioned earlier and came across something rather interesting.
I have no problem with anything humectant because I live in NJ. We have humid summers and even are winters are not so dry that it makes a difference to my hair.

Try reading this article I found online that helped to shed a little light on the subject matter for me.

http://juvenescent.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/fall-and-winter-hair-maintenance-part-i/

these is a section in this article that reads
"When the dew point is low, humectants can do the opposite and draw moisture from your hair because there is none to draw from in the atmosphere.
Save your humectant products for moderate to high humidity days."So maybe if you increase your other ingredients like glycerin, honey, glyceryl triacetate, propylene glycol, sorbitol, collagen, or pathenol, castor oil, jojoba oil, cetyl alcohol, shea butter or coconut oil......in your conditioner that may help with the dryness. Where do you live if I may ask?

Si I learned something new today, this was an interesting read for me. Maybe I should work on formulating a conditioner bar for the winter months and upping these ingredients
Great! Thank you! I'll go read there! :)

I live in Oregon and it is normally not too dry here. :) But because of allergies to dust mites, I have to use a dehumidifier in my home. So, it's more like I live in Arizona in how my hair responds. Also, winters can be dry here.

So, the combination is bad for my hair if I use glycerin or AVG.

Excellent blog article!!!!! :)

So, I need to become the emollient queen, huh???

Ok, so what kind of ingredients should make up my happy little emolient conditioner?

Here's some of the things I have in mind:

~BTMS
~extra cetyl alcohol (because it's supposed to help make the BTMS more help keep stuff in my hair?)
~NO Glycerin :rollin:
~shea oil (not too much or my hair gets oily)
~camellia Japonica oil (not too much or my hair gets oily)


castor oil overcomes my hair and so does coconut oil

I have silk amino acid, would this work for me or against me?

I also have cyclo- whatever is spelling for the cone. so I'd like to add that too.

Soooooooooooo, what else do I need to make a wonderful "keep the moisture in" my hair conditioner?

And what sort of percentages should I be looking at?

[Roseann70]

Kirry - I wish I had that dictionary...it is so expensive and so on my amazon wishlist...LOL

[K_Angel]

I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for, but it is a dictionary:

http://www.cosmeticscop.com/cosmetic-ingredient-dictionary.aspx

[Roseann70]

Excellent blog article!!!!! :)

So, I need to become the emollient queen, huh???

Ok, so what kind of ingredients should make up my happy little emolient conditioner?

Here's some of the things I have in mind:

~BTMS
~extra cetyl alcohol (because it's supposed to help make the BTMS more help keep stuff in my hair?)
~NO Glycerin :rollin:
~shea oil (not too much or my hair gets oily)
~camellia Japonica oil (not too much or my hair gets oily)


castor oil overcomes my hair and so does coconut oil

I have silk amino acid, would this work for me or against me?

I also have cyclo- whatever is spelling for the cone. so I'd like to add that too.

Soooooooooooo, what else do I need to make a wonderful "keep the moisture in" my hair conditioner?

And what sort of percentages should I be looking at?

ok if I were trying to construct the perfect conditioner I would start with as few ingredients as possible.....make small test batches, keep good notes and then slowly add things that you feel the conditioner may be lacking.
Silk amino Acids might a nice first additive...you can use it in haircare products from 1-10%
Maybe start with the basic recipe found on swifts blog because BTMS can be used alone to create a very basic hair conditioner.

7% BTMS
2% silk amino acid
.5 - 1% preservative
1-2% fragrance
water to 100%

(note) if you are only going to make enough to use for 1 wash you could leave out the preservative - why waste expensive ingredients? If it is not going to be sitting around for any length of time and it is for your own personal use you should be good)

try that and just formulate enough for 1 conditioner session. This way you can keep track of what your hair loves and doesn't love. If you start out with to many ingredients you will have a hard time figuring out what to swap with what.
The silk I would add to the cool down phase because if you add it while your other ingredients are to hot you may loose some of the great properties you are trying to gain from using it in the first place.

I am anxious to follow your result...

oh wait! I forgot the cetyl alcohol that will help make the BTMS even better

try this:
7% BTMS
3.5% cetyl alcohol
2% silk amino acid
.5 - 1% preservative
1-2% fragrance
water to 100%

[Kirry-Folk]

Kirry - I wish I had that dictionary...it is so expensive and so on my amazon wishlist...LOL

:p No kidding. I think I'll consider buying them as a gift to myself once I've finished my undergrad studies...

http://www.tightlycurly.com/ingredients/ - Seems to have some ingredients that Paula Begoun's dictionary lacks, for anyone that is interested.

[Roseann70]

I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for, but it is a dictionary:

http://www.cosmeticscop.com/cosmetic-ingredient-dictionary.aspx


Ohhh what a great link...I used it to look up Coco Betaine...because I am waiting for that ingredient to get here on monday so I can tweak my shampoo bar formulations. I am hoping this was the one surfactant that my poo bar is lacking.

[K_Angel]

Ok, next goofy question... cheapest good place to buy BTMS and cetyl alcohol?

And yes, I always make a 4 ounce size with no fragrance or preservative to use at once for my tests, what's the point in making it smell good or preserving it, if it's not going to work well. :rollin:

Kirry-Folk: Thanks for the new dictionary! I've have it bookmarked now! :)

[Roseann70]

BTMS Conditioning Emulsifier at the herbarie is $8.95 per pound
then I went to
http://the-soap-dish.com/haircare.htm and found it for $8.00 per pound

Lotion Crafter has it for $8.80 per pound http://www.lotioncrafter.com/lotioncrafter-btms.html

Ingredients to die for (http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item.php?item_id=181) has it for $8.25 per pound

I recently ordered 10lbs of this from The Soap Dish because it ended up being $7 per lb that way.

as a side not I also found another great basic hair conditioner recipe for using the BTMS here... (http://southernsoapers.com/tools/har101/Conditioner-BTMS.pdf)
use the instructions as your guide to how to heat and cool and when to add specific ingredients.

[K_Angel]

BTMS Conditioning Emulsifier at the herbarie is $8.95 per pound
then I went to
http://the-soap-dish.com/haircare.htm and found it for $8.00 per pound

Lotion Crafter has it for $8.80 per pound http://www.lotioncrafter.com/lotioncrafter-btms.html

Ingredients to die for (http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item.php?item_id=181) has it for $8.25 per pound

I recently ordered 10lbs of this from The Soap Dish because it ended up being $7 per lb that way.

as a side not I also found another great basic hair conditioner recipe for using the BTMS here... (http://southernsoapers.com/tools/har101/Conditioner-BTMS.pdf)
use the instructions as your guide to how to heat and cool and when to add specific ingredients.
As always, thank you very much!!!!!! :flower:

[jaine]

I have a question and I hope this is the right place to ask :)
Does anyone have ingredient ideas for a skin lotion that looks matte instead of shiny when it is applied, yet is relatively heavy on non-comedogenic oils or butters because my skin is dry and loves to be slathered in emollients. I'm guessing I will be leaning towards butters instead of oils for this to make it look matte, but I'm not sure.

Hugo Naturals (http://win-edge.com/HugoNaturalsBodyLotion.shtml) lotion is very close to what I want, but I suspect that shea butter is comedogenic for me.

[K_Angel]

I don't want you to think everyone is not answering you on purpose, but most of us who have been talking on this thread are still learning the basics... a couple of people are experienced on here and might be able to answer your questions... but it might take a little bit for them to answer....

Sorry, I can't answer your question. :o

[Roseann70]

Jaine...Are you wanting to make a handmade lotion? or just add an ingredient to something you already have? Maybe you should start a new thread for this and more people will see it. This was a thread for conditioner.

[Erin-86]

I have a question and I hope this is the right place to ask :)
Does anyone have ingredient ideas for a skin lotion that looks matte instead of shiny when it is applied, yet is relatively heavy on non-comedogenic oils or butters because my skin is dry and loves to be slathered in emollients. I'm guessing I will be leaning towards butters instead of oils for this to make it look matte, but I'm not sure.

Hugo Naturals (http://win-edge.com/HugoNaturalsBodyLotion.shtml) lotion is very close to what I want, but I suspect that shea butter is comedogenic for me.

I mix aloe with coconut oil...just warm the coconut oil a little bit, and than stir very hard and long, until it is mixed well. My skin is very dry, but this mix is very moistering and does not look shiny at all, the skin absorbs it real quick.
It contains 1/3 coconut oil and 2/3 aloe.

[jaine]

No worries, I will just experiment and see what I come up with :)
I'll be making some conditioner too eventually

ETA: I made my first batch of homemade conditioner ... I have no idea what I'm doing and I saw so many different recipes online so I just decided to eyeball everything and see how it turns out. For conditioner I'm trying to make a lightweight, easy to rinse, oil-free, non-irritating replacement for Whole Foods 365's old formula ... basically just something to help me dilute shampoo and help rinse out shampoo without leaving any buildup in my hair.

- 2/3 cup of emulsifying wax granules
- poured steaming filtered water over that until the mixture was 2 cups total.
- I mixed it by pouring it into a bottle and shaking it (but I'll probably get a mixer later because I still had some lumps)
- It was kind of runny so I added a teaspoon of xanthan gum
- A pinch of citric acid since the emulsifying wax is somewhat alkaline (I had no idea what to add so I just used a tiny amount ... possibly not enough but I'm not sure)
- I sprinkled some peppermint essential oil over it and stirred that in ... probably about 10 drops

It looks like conditioner and smells like a candy cane ... who knows what it will do to my hair but I guess I'll find out soon :) tips are definitely appreciated if you see me making crazy beginner mistakes! :)

[jaine]

I tried the conditioner mix from my last post and it definitely needs work! My initial thoughts are: 1) It needs something for slip ... it gave me very tangly hair in the shower and 2) I used way too much emulsifying wax (and huge wad of it never dissolved even after I added more water and oil.)

My next mix will have a lot less emulsifying wax ... I will probably use this batch as a smaller ingredient in the next batch so that I get less emulsifying wax in the finished product.

If anyone has any tips for ingredients that add slip please let me know. :) It was a lot more slippery after I added some oil and honey and more water but I think I might have made it too oily for the purpose I wanted ... I would like a very light conditioner that rinses cleanly.

I made a really awesome lotion though ... from 1 cup of my first batch, 2 ounces of apricot kernel oil, 2 ounces of honey, 1 more teaspoon of xanthan gum, and 1 cup of hot water. I added 5-6 drops each of peppermint oil and lavender oil. It smells SO good and my skin loves it!

[Roseann70]

Jaine, why did you choose emulsifying wax? What were you hoping to get from it, I guess is what I am asking. Emulsifying wax is generally used to help blend or emulsify oils and waters together? Since your recipe contains no oils there was nothing for the e-wax to bind to.

[Roseann70]

one more thing....if you want to a get a good handle on certain ingredients have a look at this tutorial.
It's a PDF file and if you go to page 3 you will see 3 ingredients to start off with when making a very basic conditioner.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1020026/conditionertutorialthingie.pdf

[K_Angel]

I've been thinking about a "spray on" conditioner mix..... To keep my hair "moisturized" in between washings. Maybe like a chamomile tea, squirt of Giovanni Leave-in, and a tad of camellia japonica oil. Do you think that would work for a leave-in spray conditioner for in between?

Do you think that would help with detangling and slip?

I'm till trying to figure out what in the world to do for conditioner...... My hair is a mess. And my conditioners just aren't enough. I even tried a CO and it didn't work either.


ETA: I just saw your conditioner pdf and it's great reading! Thanks! I think I might just have to buy some BTMS and Cetyl alcohol. Might be a better mix for me. More moisturizing.

[jaine]

Jaine, why did you choose emulsifying wax? What were you hoping to get from it, I guess is what I am asking. Emulsifying wax is generally used to help blend or emulsify oils and waters together? Since your recipe contains no oils there was nothing for the e-wax to bind to.

I think you are right, adding oil might help! I need to experiment with the amounts. My 2nd try included oil and had good slip but left my hair too oily. It made a really good lotion though so overall I am happy with tonight's experiment! :)

[Roseann70]

LOL that's the only way to learn.

[jaine]

It is fun experimenting! :)
I also ordered some cetearyl alcohol and cetyl alcohol ... they are near the top of the ingredient list in lightweight conditioners that my hair seems to like, and I read that they might help add some non-oily slip.

[K_Angel]

I can't remember... did anyone weigh in on the BTMS idea???? From the Smokey website she mentioned using BTMS and extra cetyl for even more taking care of moisture? Do you think I should order some? I just feel so frustrated with my hair right now and getting it what it needs.... I just don't even know what would work or not... however, I haven't tried the BTMS yet??

[jaine]

I can't remember... did anyone weigh in on the BTMS idea???? From the Smokey website she mentioned using BTMS and extra cetyl for even more taking care of moisture? Do you think I should order some? I just feel so frustrated with my hair right now and getting it what it needs.... I just don't even know what would work or not... however, I haven't tried the BTMS yet??

My hair doesn't seem to like behentrimonium methosulfate so I'm avoiding it in my own mixes personally ... it gives me nice feeling of slip in the shower but then over time I get a layer of it building up in my hair and making my hair look dull. (that was actually the ingredient they added to Whole Foods 365 that made the new formula unusable for me.) Luckily there are a lot of other choices for emulsifiers though. I ordered some cetyl alcohol and cetearyl alcohol to experiment with in the next batch! I think my mix was missing some sort of conditioning element, and I read that these might good for non-oily conditioning ... I will see in a week or so when it arrives. I can't wait! :)

[K_Angel]

My hair doesn't seem to like behentrimonium methosulfate so I'm avoiding it in my own mixes personally ... it gives me nice feeling of slip in the shower but then over time I get a layer of it building up in my hair and making my hair look dull. (that was actually the ingredient they added to Whole Foods 365 that made the new formula unusable for me.) Luckily there are a lot of other choices for emulsifiers though. I ordered some cetyl alcohol and cetearyl alcohol to experiment with in the next batch! I think my mix was missing some sort of conditioning element, and I read that these might good for non-oily conditioning ... I will see in a week or so when it arrives. I can't wait! :)
Cool! Looking forward to hearing about your experiments! :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OhMyCurlz, recommended this Conditioner Base Concentrate leaves a smooth, silky feel and detangles hair. Mix equal parts of distilled water with the concentrate and it is ready to bottle and use.
Ingredients: D.I. Water, Cetyl Alcohol, Pyridinium Chloride, DL Panthenol, Vitamins A&E, Germaben II
http://www.pvsoap.com/soap_bases.asp

I'm planning on ordering it and seeing what happens. :) But it will probably be about a couple of weeks before I can order it. :)

[Spring]

I've been trying to absorb all this wonderful information! Thanks Jaine for sharing your results, I've learned a lot from you! :)

[K_Angel]

I tried Sally's Cure Care Conditioner: Water, cetyl alcohol (humectant and emulsifier), cetrimonium bromide (cationic conditioning agent, antiseptic, adds shine, one website said it was a preservative), hydrolyzed keratin (hair protein), polymethoxy bicylic oxazolidine (preservative), methylparaben (preservative), propylparaben (preservative), citric acid (PH balancer)

And it was just nasty fried on my hair.

I'm wondering does this have BTMS in it? Of course, my hair likes a little protein, but this was probably a protein overload?

Anyway, just searching for answers on making my own through things I know don't work....

[Roseann70]

I tried Sally's Cure Care Conditioner: Water, cetyl alcohol (humectant and emulsifier), cetrimonium bromide (cationic conditioning agent, antiseptic, adds shine, one website said it was a preservative), hydrolyzed keratin (hair protein), polymethoxy bicylic oxazolidine (preservative), methylparaben (preservative), propylparaben (preservative), citric acid (PH balancer)

And it was just nasty fried on my hair.

I'm wondering does this have BTMS in it? Of course, my hair likes a little protein, but this was probably a protein overload?

Anyway, just searching for answers on making my own through things I know don't work....

BTMS = INCI Name: Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol
I'm wondering if you took that stuff and hit it with a stick blender and blended in some hair loving oils it may have been better.
Ingredients have to be listed from greatest to smallest. To give you an idea of what the makeup of this conditioner might have looked like (just my guesstimates)

85% water
5% cetyl alcohol
3% cetrimonium bromide
2% hydrolyzed keratin
1% polymethoxy bicylic oxazolidine
1% methylparaben
1% propylparaben
1% citric acid
1% FO or EO (didn't see this in your original but I have added it because most of us want to use a product that smells nice)
_________________________________
100%

Now this is just a guess, (because I DK the EXACT percentages THEY used for this particular conditioner) of course but when I am formulating a recipe of shampoo or conditioner I use percentages and then translate into grams/oz. The recipe must total 100% in the end.
So the above percentages would translate into something like this:
Assuming that I want to make 12oz(or 340g) of this stuff
289g water
17g cetyl alcohol
10.2g cetrimonium bromide
6.8g hydrolyzed keratin
3.4g polymethoxy bicylic oxazolidine
3.4g methylparaben
3.4g propylparaben
3.4g citric acid
3.4g FO or EO
_____________________
total weight 340g to =100%

It is easier to measure things like this in grams to because they are more exact than ounces. Do you have a scale?
This product has so many different preservatives which was probably not necessary.
To make this more emollient, then could have lessened the water amount and threw in some good hair loving oils. or some panthenol and oat or wheat proteins.

I hope that explanation helped you to see better the structure of a recipe.

[K_Angel]

As always, thank you very much for the info, Roseann70! :blossom:

[Roseann70]

K_Angel...YW...when you get the supplies, hit me up and I will try to help you formulate your next conditioner adventure. :)

[OhMyCurlz]

Yeah, BTMS doesn't leave behind oily residue...it's MUCH more matte and "soft, silky", which can translate as that dull look you're describing. So your hair will feel awesome but look dry. Cetyl and cetearyl leave more of an oil behind so you get the slip and a slight shine plus they're cheaper than BTMS.

Centrimonium chlorides, stearalkonium chlorides ect have always been useless to me. They offer softness but not as nearly as much slip. I've never even bothered to invest in them. I think that you can just use cetyl or cetearyl and get the results you want...I mean, the other emulsifiers wont even be necessary.
My hair doesn't seem to like behentrimonium methosulfate so I'm avoiding it in my own mixes personally ... it gives me nice feeling of slip in the shower but then over time I get a layer of it building up in my hair and making my hair look dull. (that was actually the ingredient they added to Whole Foods 365 that made the new formula unusable for me.) Luckily there are a lot of other choices for emulsifiers though. I ordered some cetyl alcohol and cetearyl alcohol to experiment with in the next batch! I think my mix was missing some sort of conditioning element, and I read that these might good for non-oily conditioning ... I will see in a week or so when it arrives. I can't wait! :)

[OhMyCurlz]

Mentioned in a post. :cheese:

Yeah, I think buying a concentrate is most cost effective and easier. And it doesn't have proteins...and I get the impression that you may be protein sensitive.
:D

Cool! Looking forward to hearing about your experiments! :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OhMyCurlz, recommended this Conditioner Base Concentrate leaves a smooth, silky feel and detangles hair. Mix equal parts of distilled water with the concentrate and it is ready to bottle and use.
Ingredients: D.I. Water, Cetyl Alcohol, Pyridinium Chloride, DL Panthenol, Vitamins A&E, Germaben II
http://www.pvsoap.com/soap_bases.asp

I'm planning on ordering it and seeing what happens. :) But it will probably be about a couple of weeks before I can order it. :)

[K_Angel]

Cool! Should be fun!!!! Thanks all! LHCers are the best!!! :blossom:

[skysraine]

I hope this helps
"DEEP CONDITIONER"

1 small jar of real mayonnaise
1/2 of an avocadoThe Instructions http://www.pioneerthinking.com/images/down.gif
Put together in a medium bowl and squish together with your hands until it's a minty green color. Smooth into hair all the way to the tips. Put on a shower cap or wrap your head with saran wrap.
Leave on for 20 minutes. For deeper conditioning put a hot, damp towel around your head -over the saran wrap. And if you have really long hair and only need deep conditioning at the ends, cut the ingredients in half and apply only to the ends and just wrap them.
Use fresh. XOXO

[K_Angel]

I hope this helps
"DEEP CONDITIONER"

1 small jar of real mayonnaise
1/2 of an avocadoThe Instructions http://www.pioneerthinking.com/images/down.gif
Put together in a medium bowl and squish together with your hands until it's a minty green color. Smooth into hair all the way to the tips. Put on a shower cap or wrap your head with saran wrap.
Leave on for 20 minutes. For deeper conditioning put a hot, damp towel around your head -over the saran wrap. And if you have really long hair and only need deep conditioning at the ends, cut the ingredients in half and apply only to the ends and just wrap them.
Use fresh. XOXO
Thank you for sharing your recipe! That would make an excellent protein DT! :)

[K_Angel]

Same here, I don't know if collagen is having this effect on my hair or if hair naturally does this, but when I'm washing my hair and take a shed strand, I can pull it and the strand will boing back like a rubberband, instead of stretching without returning. I'm thinking the elastic effect on my hair when wet is the collagen, which for my dry chemically treated hair, is very needed. I use Cantu shea butter leave in conditioning repair cream (some may not like this cream for their hair type), but I'd like to find other sources of collagen as well.
Spring: Hopefully this time I didn't send you the wrong information? :o

http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/collagen.html

I was looking at different ingredients for the fun of it and found this section on collagen. Hopefully, that is what you were looking for? :flower:

[jaine]

I have a question for the more experienced conditioner-makers ... when you are making conditioner from scratch how do you prevent the mix from feeling "gritty"? I seem to have undissolved bits of cetearyl alcohol and/or cetyl alcohol and/or emulsifying wax. I'm heating my mix gently and stirring it with a fork; maybe I need something like an electric mixer instead? Straining it through a cheesecloth at the end helps but I wonder if I should need to do that.

[Roseann70]

Cetyl alcohol has a melting point of 49C/120F trying throwing those ingredients in the microwave on a low defrost setting to melt them before adding them to everything else.
Are you holding your water phase? When I used to make lotions I would put the water phase into the oven set it at 170 degrees and hold for 20 minutes to discourage and beasties that may grow.

[jaine]

Cetyl alcohol has a melting point of 49C/120F trying throwing those ingredients in the microwave on a low defrost setting to melt them before adding them to everything else.
Are you holding your water phase? When I used to make lotions I would put the water phase into the oven set it at 170 degrees and hold for 20 minutes to discourage and beasties that may grow.

Thanks for the tips! I will try that next time. I don't have a microwave but I think I can heat it a little longer & hotter next time.

My hair is drying now after being washed with my 2nd attempt ... it had water, cetearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol, emulsifying wax, and a very tiny amount of apricot kernel oil. It had just enough slip to comb in the shower, so ... not a tangly disaster like the first batch. I guess when my hair dries I'll see how it looks.

[K_Angel]

Thanks for sharing your experiments with us!!!! :blossom:

[Roseann70]

Looking forward to hear how it goes for you.

[jaine]

My hair is dry! It looks and feels pretty darn close to normal. The only difference is that I have seen my hair looking shinier than this, but that's probably not noticeable to anyone but me. ... it's at maybe 80% of its shine potential.
I think I'll wash it with a similar recipe for the next few weeks and see how this stands up to long-term use, see if I get buildup or something.

I have a question ... is there something I can add to make it feel less "waxy" in my hands? (Something that's not oil... I want to use it for CO-washing so the less oil the better.) I was thinking maybe glycerin or honey or aloe but I'm really just speculating.

[Roseann70]

Jaine,
would you mind terribly posting the recipe you used? It is so hard to see why it was waxy without knowing what went into it.

and honey is always a lovely choice!

[jaine]

OK it will be hard to give amounts because I didn't measure, but I will do the best I can :)
I think it had about equal parts of water, cetyl alcohol, cetearyl alcohol, and emulsifying wax. And a tiny (probably negligible) amount of apricot kernel oil.

I heated it later, to see if I could get the last of the graininess out, and I saw a clear oily layer rise to the surface. I stirred it a little and then the clear oily layer rose to the surface again. When I dip my finger in this oily layer and touch my skin it turns to wax. So I think whatever that clear layer on top is, is where the waxiness is coming from ...possibly also the source of the graininess if I have undissolved bits of wax in there.

Since it was clear, maybe it's too much cetearyl alcohol or cetyl alcohol that didn't get dissolved? The emulsifying wax makes white opaque stuff and the cetearyl alcohol and cetyl alcohol were both clear when they melted.

[Roseann70]

OK....do you have a scale by any chance that weighs in grams or even just ounces?

I do not think you need to use BOTH cetyl and Cetearyl Alcohol. Cetearyl alcohol is a vegetable derived blend of cetyl and stearyl fatty alcohol. So it seems to be to much using both.

Did you just hand stir? I think a stick blender would be in order here so you can really emulsify your oils together with your cetearyl alcohol.

There are 3 phases to blend this all together
Phase A
Heat and hold your water to 70C for 20 min
Phase B
Heat and hold your oils and emulsifiers also to 70C for twenty minutes

It is important that they are properly heated so they will blend nice together when you are ready to marry them..LOL

Phase C
it doesn't look like you have a phase C but this is where I would add my heat sensitive ingredients like panthenol, fragrance or essential oils etc....

mix this all together and blend well for 5 minutes or so. As it cools it should thicken up I would keep hitting it with the mixer every so often.

I do have to tell you that I am not really sure that you can achieve a nice conditioner with these basic ingredients and I wouldn't even begin to know how to help without giving you exact measurements to follow.
I just saw that you added e wax too...I only use that in lotions.

Sorry I can not really help you to much here =(
Was it you that said you didn't like the BTMS??
BTMS is awesome stuff and you could produce a gentle everyday conditioner just using that one ingredient. Here...read this, I clipped it from www.aussiesoapsupplies.com

BTMS is a combination of a conditioning quaternary ammonium compound which is derived from Canola Oil (Non GMO natural Colza) and Cetearyl, a fatty alcohol.

Conditioning Emulsifier behaves in the same manner as Emulsifying Wax NF in as much as it is a self emulsifying compound that can be used to make an oil in water emulsion. The inclusion of the quaternary compound is the reason why it is used as a Hair and Skin conditioner.

The amazing thing with Conditioning Emulsifier is that you can literally combine the pastilles with water you have created an extremely gentle, every day hair conditioner - there is no need to add anything else. However, because it is an emulsifier you can add other emollients and ingredients to create your own incredible, salon quality hair conditioners at home. Conditioning Emulsifier will give your home-formulated conditioners lubricity and static control, offering excellent wet combing and detangling. From the basic formulation, you can then start to build your own specialized Conditioners by including Hydrolyzed Proteins, Herbal Extracts, dl Panthenol and small amounts of Fixed Oils (such as Jojoba, Coconut Oil) to make a really fabulous hair conditioner. By choosing which ingredients you add, you can tailor your conditioner to suit your own hair.

Conditioning Emulsifier comes in pastille form, is vegetable derived and not tested on animals making it suitable for Vegans, Vegetarians and those requiring cruelty free ingredients.

and here is their recipe for a basic hair conditioner

Basic Hair Conditioner

For anyone formulating their own hair conditioner for the first time, I recommend starting with this recipe. By trying the basic Conditioning Emulsifier and water formulation this gives you a really good idea of what the product behaves like before adding any other emollients or ingredients. Also, at usage rate of 5% it is very inexpensive, and will give you an end product that rivals any supermarket bought product.
This Recipe makes 200g - to increase the volume use the percentage amounts to keep your formulation in balance.

Phase A

10g Conditioning Emulsifier (5%)
185g Distilled Water (90% - adjust as necessary to make formulation to 100%)

Phase B

1-2g Preservative (0.5 - 1%)
2-5g Essential Oils/Fragrance (1-3%)

Method

* Combine the Phase A ingredients and heat to 80C whilst stirring.
* When homogenous take off the heat and stir periodically while cooling
* Then add the required percentage of preservative for the brand you are using at the recommended temperature (which is generally 0.5 - 1% added at around 40C) mix well to combine
* Lastly, add any essential oils or fragrance that you wish to, mixing well to combine


HTH

[jaine]

Thanks for all of the helpful info!!
I might just have to buckle down and try behentrimonium methosulfate next time when I run out of emulsifier. The reason I was hesitant to try it is that it's the #1 ingredient other than water in Whole Foods 365 conditioner's new formula, which my hair hates ... if I use it for co-washing over the long term then my hair becomes very matte and greasy-looking. It does feel soft in the shower though. I have noticed the same matte-hair effect with repeated usage of other conditioners that contain behentrimonium methosulfate near the top of the ingredient list. I was hoping to find a different emulsifier that won't build up in my hair if I do only co-washing with no shampoo.

[jaine]

I have some exciting news (sorry for the double post!) Roseann, I made adjustments to my 2nd batch last night to try to make it closer to your sample recipe, and also took your advice to heat it to the melting point for at least 20 minutes. Something in there totally eliminated the waxy feeling and it feels like exactly like a real conditioner now! :D I just used it. Waiting for my hair to dry. Lots of slip in the shower and no waxiness at all! Thank you so much for your help! :)

I had about 2 cups of the 2nd batch left ... I added about 3 cups water because the sample recipe looked like it had much more water than mine. I also added an extra spoonful of emulsifier since it sounds like I had an overwhelming amount of cetearyl alcohol & cetyl alcohol in there and I thought it might need some help to dissolve. I added a huge overflowing tablespoon of honey. I heated all of this so that the cetearyl alcohol & cetyl alcohol melted completely. Then I poured it into a big bottle and shook it up while it cooled. I'm waiting for my hair to dry now but it really felt perfect in the shower ... very slippery, very easy to comb through my hair even with a fine-tooth comb, and not waxy at all. I'm pretty happy about this because if it works out it'll be so much cheaper than buying store-bought hair products.

[Roseann70]

YAY YAY YAY!!! I am glad that you were able to come up with something that you can love. It feels so good when you know you made it yourself.

[K_Angel]

Yayyyyyyyyyy! :cheese: Congratulations! :)

[K_Angel]

When re-reading some of the Swiftcraftymonkey information this caught my eye:

"The main conditioning agent in BTMS
-*‐behentrimonium methosulfate
-*‐is a cationic quaternary ammonium salt derived from rapeseed oil (the plant for canola oil).


(Any of the shampoos that have ammonium sulfates in them totally wreck my hair. I can use SLeS shampoo fine. But the ALS ones are just awful.)

This makes me wonder, would the ammonium salt in the BTMS be bad for my hair too? Or is it a totally different kind of ammonium????

I still plan on buying that other conditioner when I can in a week or two, but this had me curious. :)

[Roseann70]

K_Angel....I do not believe it to be a sulfate. If you post that question to swifts blog I am sure she can give you a way more technical answer than I can.
I did a little research on just that ingredient: i can't copy and paste for some reason but read here (http://gzhanglian.en.alibaba.com/product/265628662-0/Cation_Amendment_Quaternary_Ammonium_Salt_7_39_47. html).
HTH

and PS if you do invest in the BTMS and you do not end up liking it - I will buy the balance of it from you and pay for the shipping too=)

[K_Angel]

Roseann70: As always, thank you for the great link and help! :flower:

[K_Angel]

K_Angel....I do not believe it to be a sulfate. If you post that question to swifts blog I am sure she can give you a way more technical answer than I can.
I did a little research on just that ingredient: i can't copy and paste for some reason but read here (http://gzhanglian.en.alibaba.com/product/265628662-0/Cation_Amendment_Quaternary_Ammonium_Salt_7_39_47. html).
HTH

and PS if you do invest in the BTMS and you do not end up liking it - I will buy the balance of it from you and pay for the shipping too=)
I took your suggestion and posted a question on her blog. We'll see what happens. :)

[jaine]

I'm contemplating making a conditioning cleanser shampoo(ish) kind of mixture with decyl glucoside plus cetearyl alcohol and water as the main ingredients. What do you think ... is this doomed to failure? :)

I have a few gentle shampoos that use decyl glucoside ... John Masters or California Baby or Hugo Naturals ... and I usually end up washing my hair with a quarter-sized amount of that type of shampoo, plus a big handful of lightweight conditioner, like a hybrid between co-washing and low poo.

[K_Angel]

what's decyl glucoside?

[jaine]

what's decyl glucoside?

It's a mild surfactact. serving the same purpose as sodium lauryl sulfate, sodium laureth sulfate, ammonium laurel sulfate, coco betaine, etc, but a lot less harsh on my hair and skin.

[K_Angel]

It's a mild surfactact. serving the same purpose as sodium lauryl sulfate, sodium laureth sulfate, ammonium laurel sulfate, coco betaine, etc, but a lot less harsh on my hair and skin.
Ahhhhhhh, thank you! :)

[Norai]

I really recommend BTMS and cetrimonium chloride for making conditioner - they both really add to the softness and glide-y factor. :)

The cetrimonium made a huuuuuge difference for me, but it's pretty hard to find... only place I've seen it is The Personal Formulator.

[MrsHouston]

I've had both experiences with acv. Beer rinses are nice though, you might want to give those a try :)

What type of beer do you suggest using? What work best on hair?

[Spring]

Wow!

I love reading this thread! Thanks K Angel for the site, that's exactly what I'm looking for :)

[K_Angel]

Wow!

I love reading this thread! Thanks K Angel for the site, that's exactly what I'm looking for :)
Hopefully we'll both find out answers to the best homemade conditioner for our hair, huh? :)

[Roseann70]

I also LOVE cetrimonium chloride!!!! It really helps with the tangles and makes the final comb through such a breeze!

[K_Angel]

450 ml destilled water
20 g stearamidopropyl dimethylamine(emulsifier)
12 g cetylalkohol
10 g jojoba
5 ml glycerin
paraben
lactic acid

This is what I am experimenting with. Right now, I use shea instead of jojoba and an other preservative. There are so many things you can change and by adding and removing small quantities you get big differences in the result.
Is this your recipe still? Or are you still experimenting?

[K_Angel]

Has anyone here stumbled on the Herbarie site? I buy DIY ingredients here, and just made my first *very successful* conditioner based on this formula:

http://www.theherbarie.com/Amys-Ultra-Conditioning-Conditioner-p-60.html

I used nettle and irish moss tea for water, omitted the wheat protein and glycerin and added silk aminos instead. I did not have the Emester (not sure what it even is). I also added some hyaluronic acid (expensive, but good moisture-grabber that I believe works even in arid climates like mine, where glycerin is not my friend).

Highly recommended :) for thin, dry, wavy, difficult tangly hair!
Can you tell me more about how you used the nettle? How did you make the tea? And can you give us your exact recipe? I'm kind of curious abut nettle... does it cause any skin irritation?

Are you still using this recipe? Or have you made modifications?

I"m very curious to hear an update, if you don't mind. :flower:

[K_Angel]

All conditioners are mostly water. Extracts don't need to be added at high amounts into a formulation, they aren't supposed to. They're concentrates I guess you could say.


This may be a dumb question.... Can extracts be replaced with EO's/herbal teas, or am I missing the point all together?

After the base, I'm thinking of using some rosemary and other things that help with moisture and etc... And since I'm not really sure I want to invest in extracts, would I be able to add to a base teas/EOs and if so, how would I do that? Or are there benefits in extracts that I cannot obtain through EOs/teas?

I apologize ahead of time if this is a dumb question. :o

[K_Angel]

This website has lots of great products including Botanical additives in powder form http://www.organic-creations.com/servlet/StoreFront


When using these dry ingredients in a homemade conditioner, would you reconstitute them first or add them to a base in the dry form?

[K_Angel]

New Here...but this thread really caught my interest. I have been researching homemade shampoo and conditioner for the last 2 months. I currently make handmade soap and and wandered into the world of shampoo and conditioner bars. They are in solid form and contain no water. Has anyone here tried formulating these. A good place to start with your formulations can be found here (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/06/solid-conditioner-bar-recipe.html).


This solid conditioner bar, are you still making your own? What recipe have you come up with for your own personal use? How do you use it in the shower? Do you lather up the same as a regular soap? Does the Conditioner bar "sweat?"

[K_Angel]

K_Angel....I do not believe it to be a sulfate. If you post that question to swifts blog I am sure she can give you a way more technical answer than I can.
I did a little research on just that ingredient: i can't copy and paste for some reason but read here (http://gzhanglian.en.alibaba.com/product/265628662-0/Cation_Amendment_Quaternary_Ammonium_Salt_7_39_47. html).
HTH

and PS if you do invest in the BTMS and you do not end up liking it - I will buy the balance of it from you and pay for the shipping too=)
In a few days I'm going to do some buying... and since you've made such a generous offer of buying the BTMS from me if I can't use it, I think I'll purchase some of it too! That way I can try the base OhMyCurlz told me about and the BTMS too. :biggreegrin:

Thank you for such an extremely generous offer! Very sweet of you! :blossom:

And I'm going to start with your very simple BTMS recipe you gave me several posts back. I always want to jump ahead and put in all the ingredients I want to try, but I have to be "good" and start basic.

And with the OhMyCurlz kind of base, I'll try it by itself first too. And see what happens!

I'll keep everyone posted on my progress... I guess it will probably take about a week or so for it to be shipped to me. So in about 2 weeks I'll begin experimenting! :cheese:

[K_Angel]

K_Angel....I do not believe it to be a sulfate. If you post that question to swifts blog I am sure she can give you a way more technical answer than I can.


She answered me:

https://www.blogger.com/img/blank.gif Susan Barclay-Nichols (http://www.blogger.com/profile/08929716042707110612) said...This is a great question - I've actually tried to answer it in this post... (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/03/question-ammonium.html) I hope this helps!

Is LHC the Long hair care forum? I really should spend more time there - I can officially sit on my hair now (but I do need a cut as it's getting a little ratty) and I'm sure there are some great suggestions for reaching my goal of getting it to my knees!
~~~~~~~~~

How fun that she mentioned me, well, it says anonymous, but it's me! :rollin:

Anyway, I think you can click on the link and see her answer. :)

I also, of course, encouraged to come visit us here at the LHC! :D

[K_Angel]

I decided to ask Swift this too:

I know that there are a lot of natural ingredients that can add different benefits in a DIY hair conditioner/shampoo.

Rosemary is one, just off the top of my head. However, you can use this as an Essential Oil, extract or a tea (I'm sure there's more, but I'm not sure what they are).

How do I know what would benefit me most? What are the different properties of each of these? Or are they all basically the same?

``````````````````
So we'll see what she says. Her answers are so comprehensive! :)

[K_Angel]

I also LOVE cetrimonium chloride!!!! It really helps with the tangles and makes the final comb through such a breeze!
Just curious, what about it helps with tangles?

And where can it be purchased? Is it expensive?

[Roseann70]

Just curious, what about it helps with tangles?

And where can it be purchased? Is it expensive?

You can buy it here (http://www.personalformulator.com/wvss/product_info.php?products_id=1167) at the personal formulator. and you can read a very comprehensive entry about it here (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/07/cationic-quaternary-compounds_29.html) on swifts blog!

[Roseann70]

This solid conditioner bar, are you still making your own? What recipe have you come up with for your own personal use? How do you use it in the shower? Do you lather up the same as a regular soap? Does the Conditioner bar "sweat?"

Yes I am still making these. They do not sweat, and I use it when I shower just as you would regular conditioner. They have basically the same ingredients as store bought ingredients minus the water and they are fabulous on my hair. The Ph on these tends to be lower than regular soap and my hair really likes that. A few months ago when I started learning about these I started with swifts conditioner tutorial and took it from there. I have made 18 versions of these and think I have finally settled on a final version. They have been for my own personal use while I have been formulating and reformulating but I will be offering these up for sale real soon. I have 10 testers that have been using them also and providing invaluable feedback which is how I ended up with 18 versions....LOL
I do not think I will need traditional shampoo OR conditioner for quite some time. Each one of these bars lasts about 2-3 months and I wash just about every other day.
I am currently waiting the redesign of my website (it is half way done) and then I will be offering them up for sale. So I can not share my final formulation for these but I will tell you I started with swifts conditioner bar originally and then took it from there...through 18 transformations. I kept very good notes and then started subbing out each ingredient one by one so I could see what property each ingredient contributed to my final product.
I happen to love the "cones" but I know that many people here prefer to wash without so I have come up with two versions of the shampoo/conditioner bars. With cones and cone free. When they are ready to go I will let you know.
This week I will be working on some bars for oily haired people, my husband is rather oily so he will be my first specimen...lol

[K_Angel]

You can buy it here (http://www.personalformulator.com/wvss/product_info.php?products_id=1167) at the personal formulator. and you can read a very comprehensive entry about it here (http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/07/cationic-quaternary-compounds_29.html) on swifts blog!



Very cool! Thank you! :blossom:

[K_Angel]

Yes I am still making these. They do not sweat, and I use it when I shower just as you would regular conditioner. They have been for my own personal use while I have been formulating and reformulating but I will be offering these up for sale real soon. I have 10 testers that have been using them also I am currently waiting the redesign of my website (it is half way done) and then I will be offering them up for sale. So I can not share my final formulation for these but I will tell you I started with swifts conditioner bar originally and then took it from This week I will be working on some bars for oily haired people, my husband is rather oily so he will be my first specimen...lol

Oh, I didn't realize you were going to be selling. I understand perfectly keeping your formula private!

I'm so glad you came up with something that succeeded!!! :cheese:

PM me your URL when you get it up and running! :)

[K_Angel]

Ok, I emailed Swift and she answered so this is a mixture of my questions and her answers.. here's a copy of it:

Hi K_Angel. Wow, you've done your homework.

Your hair type: You have long, fine, wavy hair with some grey in it. You tend towards the oily on your scalp, and your ends are dry.
Goals: Detangling, moisturizing, conditioning.

My first thoughts ...

Stay away from products with cetyl alcohol. It's used as a booster for the conditioning agents and a moisturizer, and I find it makes fine hair feel awful.
Stay away from the oils. If you have an oily scalp, you don't need oils. You want something to condition the ends of your hair - that's what the conditioning agents and hydrolyzed proteins do!
Stay away from anything with silk protein. It can make fine hair and hair prone to frizzing feel really awful. Your hair absorbs it and it can moisturize from inside, leading to frizzies.

Find products with behentrimonium chloride. The products you mention you liked contained this ingredient.
Definitely find products with cetrimonium chloride - this is an awesome detangler (my thick, coarse, dry at the ends hair loves it!)
Definitely find products with an oat, corn, or wheat hydrolyzed protein.
Definitely find products with panthenol.

I think you are over-conditioning your hair. I used to use the most intense conditioners I could find. Then I read that we long haired girls seem to think we need tons of conditioning and this lead to dryness. So I started using less, making my own stuff, and using a conditioner bar. I make a point of putting more conditioner on the ends and less near my scalp. This seems to work for me.

Here's a post on how conditioners work - http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-conditioners-work.html

Do you want to make your own? If so, then I'd suggest the following recipe...(from this package http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1020026/conditionertutorialthingie.pdf) (I suggest reading this to understand the components of a conditioner.)

To sum it up - most of these conditioners either lack the essential bits of a conditioner - the cationic quaternary compounds - or have really low levels of the quats. They contain a lot of oils and moisturizers, probably because that's what people want and because they're cheaper to use than the cationic compounds. The reason - I think - they are drying out your hair is because they aren't conditioning it at all. To condition, we need to be using a cationic quaternary compound, which is positively charged and will bind to our hair. If a conditioner isn't positively charged, it won't stay on our hair.

OILY HAIR CONDITIONER - defrizzing, conditioning, moisturizing without oils
7% BTMS
.5% preservative
2% cromoist -- my hair hates silk, so I have chosen oat protein
2% panthenol - is supposed to keep my hair healthy
2% cetac - detangling is a must for me!
2% cyclomethicone - defrizzing action
2% dimethicone - again with the defrizzing action
1% fragrance or essential oils -- oily hair blend - equal parts rosemary, clary sage, cedarwood, and lemon
water up to 100%

This contains all the stuff to condition your hair - BTMS - with good detanglers. There's no oils in there, but the silicones should give you a lovely slip and glide, as well as some shine when you're done.

Here's my favourite conditioner bar - http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/06/solid-conditioner-bar-recipe.html
I know I've just told you to avoid cetyl alcohol and oils, but they are necessary in this bar. You'll only get a titch when you condition, and they are there to make the bar harder.

And use a leave in conditioner (again, check the PDF above for more information)

LEAVE IN CONDITIONER
2% Incroquat BTMS
2% condition-eze 7 or celquat H-100 or honeyquat (cationic polymer)
2% cetrimonium chloride (for detangling)
4% glycerin (humectant, makes the mixture thicker, which is nice)
1% aloe vera (I don't know if this little makes a difference, but I use it anyway)
1% hydrolyzed protein (I use cromoist)
1% panthenol
2% cyclomethicone
2% dimethicone
1% fragrance oil
.5% to 1% preservative (I use liquid germall plus)
water to 100%

Weigh the BTMS, cetac, glycerin, aloe vera, and water into a heat proof container and put into a double boiler until the ingredients melt. Mix well and leave to stand until the temperature reaches 45C, mixing occasionally. Add the hydrolyzed protein, panthenol, cyclomethicone, dimethicone, fragrance oil, and preservative at this time, and mix well. When the mixture is at room temperature, bottle in a spray bottle.

Feel free to leave out the glycerin and aloe vera and substitute more water for it.

If you are are going to make your own, get some cetrimonium chloride! It is the most amazing detangler at 2%, and it makes your hair feel really soft and lovely.


Continued on next post...

[K_Angel]

Swift's answer continues...

See my notes below...

On 2010-03-27, at 10:45 PM, angel wrote:

Herbal Essence Hello Hydration seemed the logical next step, because it’s ingredients were only varied by about 2 or 3 ingredients. However, it was a total disaster and left my hair dry and nasty. Here are the ingredients:
Ingredients: water, stearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol, stearamidopropyl dimethylamine, vanilla planifolia fruit extract, cocos nucifera (coconut) fruit extract, glutamic acid, fragrance, bisaminopropyl dimethicone, benzyl alcohol, edta, propylene glycol, methylchloroisothiazolinone, methylisothiazolinone, citric acid, blue 1

You want your conditioning agent to be right after water - there are tons of moisturizers in here like cetyl alcoho, stearyl alcohol, coconut oil - and not enough conditioning for my tastes.

Hydralicious reconditioning conditioner
Results: flattened hair too much, but great slip/no tangles!!!!! My guess is the shea butter in it was the "flattner," because shea has always been too heavy even in small amounts. But the next day is it was VERY dry
Ingredients: water/eau, stearyl alcohol, dimethicone, behentrimonium chloride, cetyl alcohol, butyrospermum parkii (shea butter) extract, hydrolyzed algae extract, fragrance/parfum, benzyl alcohol, disodium edta, sodium hydroxide, methylchloroisothiazolinone, methylisothiazolinone, red 33, blue 1

Again, the benetrimonium chloride should come right after the water. The stearyl alcoho, cetyl alcohol, shea butter extract, benzyl alcohol are all moisturizers - too many for fine hair. The algae will penetrate your hair to moisturize from within, and you don't want that.

Hydralicious Self-targeting conditioner
Results: very very very dry hair. Have no idea what caused it????
Ingredients: water/eau, stearyl alcohol, behentrimonium chloride, cetyl alcohol, dimethicone, vanilla tahitensis fruit extract, aloe barbadensis leaf juice, fragrance/parfum, benzyl alcohol, disodium edta, sodium hydroxide, methylchloroisothiazolinone, methylisothiazolinone, red 33

Too many moisturizers. You said your hair doesn't like aloe - could that be the problem?

Hello Hydration Moisturizing conditioner
Results: Very little slip, lots and lots of knots and semi dry hair. I have no idea what my hair hated in this?
Ingredients: water, stearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol, stearamidopropyl dimethylamine, vanilla planifolia fruit extract, cocos nucifera (coconut) fruit extract, glutamic acid, fragrance, bisaminopropyl dimethicone, benzyl alcohol, edta, propylene glycol, methylchloroisothiazolinone, methylisothiazolinone, citric acid, blue 1

I don't think your hated it for what's in it but rather for what's not in it. There isn't a really good conditioning agent in this, just some fatty alcohols - stearyl and cetyl - and humectants. No hydrolyzed proteins, no panthenol. It's simply not a great conditioner for your hair type.

Tousle me softly conditioner
Results: Worked pretty well, but am allergic to something in it; closed my throat. Made my hair soft and very sleek and still sort of heavy and thick feeling (which I actually liked) and waves were still there although less than normal. Why this worked I have no idea. And I'm guessing the violets in it were what I may have been allergic to?
Ingredients: water, stearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol, stearamidopropyl dimethylamine, viola odorata flower/leaf extract, punica granatum extract, glutamic acid, fragrance, bis-aminopropyl dimethicone, benzyl alcohol, edta, sodium chloride, methylchloroisothiazolinone, methylisothiazolinone, citric acid, blue 1, red 33.

Herbal Essences Totally Twisted conditioner
Results: good slip when wet but made my hair wiry when dry.
Ingredients: water, stearyl alcohol, cyclopentasiloxane, cetyl alcohol, stearamidopropyl dimethylamine, dimethicone, lavandula angustifolia (lavender) flower/leaf stem extract, jade plant (crassula argentea) extract, fragrance, glutamic acid, benzyl alcohol, edta, methylchloroisothiazolinone, methylisothiazolinone, citric acid, ext violet 2.

The slip comes from the cyclopentasiloxane and dimethicone.

Loreal Pro Nutri gloss conditioner for med. To Long hair that’s curly/wavy – pink bottle with blue square of writing. It left my hair very dry and nasty. Have no idea what was in it that did that, but my hair did not like it.
Ingredients:
Water (Agua), Behentrimonium Chloride, Stearyl Alcohol, Cetyl Alcohol, Elaeis Guineensis (Palm) Oil, Glycerin, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Fragrance (Parfum), Octyldodecanol, Methylparaben, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Citric Acid, Myristyl Alcohol, Chlorhexidine Dihydrochloride, Limonene, Hexyl Cinnamal, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Linalool, Citronellol, Alpha Isomethyl Ionone, Hydrolyzed Conchiolin Protein, Red 33 (CI 17200)

Although this contains behentriumonium chloride, you have a lot of moisturizers in there - stearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol, palm oil, octyldodecanol, jojoba oil. You also have a protein I've never heard of, which apparently comes from mollusks or bivalves, that is supposed to penetrate your hair. We don't want the protein to penetrate your hair because that causes frizzies.

Sally generic of Paul Mitchell's Lavender Mint Conditioner- GVP Tea Tree Oil Lavender Conditioner-
made my hair tangle like there was no tomorrow. Oh, my hair feels moisturized at this point.... but it was an ugly moisturized matted mess!!! I couldn't get it combed through, so I cheated on my experiment and went to an old friend in my cabinet called Joico Elixir thing I bought a hundred years ago. It's too heavy for my hair and tomorrow my hair is going to look like it needs washing again, but at least it saved me from an hour of detangling my hair!!!

continued on the next post...

[K_Angel]

Swift's answer continues

Walgreens version of the Biolage Balm:
while it's still damp, it doesn't "feel" like it has a lot of slip. Then about a hour later while still very damp it hair felt good now and big tooth combed out nicely. However, when my hair was dry, it still was a bit dry feeling and it was stringy like I'd never seen before!!
Ingredients:Water- Aqua , Myristyl Alcohol , Cetrimonium Chloride , Cetearyl Alcohol , Iso Decyl Oleate , Propylene Glycol , Fragrance- Parfum , Methylparaben , Propylparaben , Phenoxyethanol , Hexyl Cinnamal , Coumarin , Linalool , Butylphenyl Methylpropional , Hydroxycitronellal , Amyl Cinnamal , Polysorbate-20 , Geraniol , Algae Extract- Algae , Rosemary Extract- Rosmarinus Officinalis , Golden Seal Extract- Hydrastis Canadensis

This conditioner doesn't have a major cationic quat in there! The conditioning is coming from the oils - myristyl alcohol, isodecyl oleate - and the cetrimonium chloride is why it combed out nicely. This is a terrible choice for long hair - nothing really substantive in there.


L'Oreal Natures Therapy Mega Moisture Nurturing Creme, from Sally's. It was too heavy on my hair. Probably the oil in it. Oils tend to be too heavy on my hair, but I thought just a little might not be too bad. I was wrong.
Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Glycerin, Amodimethicone, Cetyl Esters, Sodium PCA, Fragrance, Methylparaben, Trideceth-12, Sunflower Seed Oil, Chlorhexidine, Dihydrochloride, Cetrimonium Chloride, Yellow 5.

I think it's the cetearyl alcohol - it's a great moisturizer, but it needs to be lower on the list than the behentriumonium chloride. You mentioned you don't like glycerin - that might be the answer. There's probably too little sunflower oil in this to make a difference - if it comes after the preservative, you're lucky if there's 1% in there. It does have the cetrimonium chloride in there, which is good, but if it's after the preservative, there isn't enough there.


Cure Care Conditioner from Sally’s: just stripped my hair to the point of despair! Took almost a week for my hair to normalize. This also had this weird powder thing. It felt like it had some sort of “chalky” stuff.
Water, Cetyl Alcohol, Cetrimonium Bromide, Hydrolyzed Keratin, Polymethoxy Bicyclic Oxazolidine, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Citric Acid.

Again, there's more moisturizing in there - cetyl alcohol - than conditioning agent. The keratin will penetrate your hair to moisturize from inside. You don't want that.


DIY BASE:
Ingredients: Cetyl Alcohol, Stearyl Alcohol, Stearalkonium Chloride, Dimethyl Stearamine, Lactic Acid
And my hair was dry with it. Which was very upsetting.

Too many moisturizers - cetyl alcohol and stearyl alcohol - and not enough conditioning agent. Where's the good stuff like panthenol, hydrolyzed protein, and so on. This doesn't look like something I'd want to use.


Sally's generic of The Detangler by Paul Mitchell:
And while it had the best results so far... it still had it's share of problems. Most notably, I still had quite a few tangles. My hair was VERY shiny though! Left some waves, but not a lot. I have noticed a lot more shedding though, to the point where I was very alarmed by the next day.
Water, Isododecane, Isohexadecane, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Bisamino Peg/Ppg-41/3 Aminoethyl PG-Propyl Dimethicone, Algae, Chamomile, Henna, Jojba, Rosemary, Peg-12 Dimethicone, Carrot Leaf Extract, Carrot Seed Oil, Grape Seed Oil, Citric Acid, Tetrasodium EDTA, Dmdm Hydantoin.

Again, the conditioning agent should come after the water, although it has the behentrinonium methosulfate in there, which is a good thing. You have a ton of silicones in there - anything with dimethicone - but there's also a ton of oils. There is nothing inherently detangling in this product.

Honeysuckle Rose® Moisturizing Conditioner
Very dry and horrible! It seemed to ruin my hair.
INGREDIENTS: Coconut Fatty Acid Cream Base, Organic Aloe Vera, Organic Shea Butter, Wheat Germ Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Organic Rosa Mosqueta® Rose Hip Seed Oil; Extracts of Fennel, Hops, Balm Mint, Mistletoe, Camomile, Yarrow, Chrysanthemum, Angelica, Forsythia and Magnolia; Honeysuckle Oil, Carrot Oil, Aubrey’s Preservative (Citrus Seed Extract, Vitamins A, C and E).

There are no conditioners in this recipe. It looks more like a non-ionic lotion to me - and non-ionic products do nothing for your hair. It must be cationic to work for your hair! So you're effectively putting a lotion on your hair that will just rinse out. I think they were hoping the conditioning would come from all the oils. This is a terrible formula!


TRESemme Flawless Curls Curl Moisturizing Professional Formula Conditioner
Ingredients: Water (Aqua), Stearyl Alcohol, Cyclopentasiloxane, Cetyl Alcohol, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Dimethicone, Cyclohexasiloxane, Aspartic Acid, Quatermium-18, Fragrance (Parfum), DMDM Hydantoin, Citric Acid, Isostearamidopropyl Ethyldimonium Ethosulfate, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Limonene, Disodium EDTA, PEG-9, Amyl Cinnamal, Linalool, Geraniol, Hexyl Cinnamal, Polysorbate 20, Hydrolyzed Keratin, Thiamine HCl, Tocopheryl Acetate, Panthenol, Ascorbic Acid, Niacinamide, Biotin.

Absolutely NO slip, dried my hair out terribly.

Again, there isn't the lovely behentrimonium chloride in here. The conditioning comes from very mild conditioners and a ton of fatty alcohols. We see cyclomethicone in here, but you really need dimethicone for the slip, glide, and shiny hair afterwards.

Trader Joe's Refresh Citrus Conditioner with Vitamin C
ingredients: Botanical water extracts of chamomile, comfrey, lemon peel, sage and yarrow, cetyl alcohol, ceteareth-20, citric acid, jojoba oil, essential oil of sweet orange, panthenol (vitamin B5), ascorbyl palmitate (vitamin C), tocopherol (vitamin E), retinyl palmitate (vitamin A), essential oil of grapefruit, essential oil of tangerine, sodium hydroxide, methylparaben, propylparaben, fragrance.

Dried out my hair.

This is also a terrible recipe. There are no cationic ingredients in this mix, which means it won't stay on your hair. It does have panthenol in it - first time I've seen that - but the other vitamins do nothing for your hair. You have a lotion here - and lotions do nothing for our hair.


Nature's Gate Aloe Vera Moisturizing Conditioner
Ingredients: Water, Cetyl Alcohol, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe Vera) Leaf Juice, Hordeum Distichon (Barley) Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Extract, Panthenol, Coffea Arabica (Coffee) Seed Extract, Viola Tricolor (Wild Pansy) Extract, Sesamum Indicum (Sesame) Seed Oil, Tocopherol, Stearalkonium Chloride, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Butylene Glycol, Citric Acid, Potassium Sorbate, Phenoxyethanol, Fragrance

Really dried out my hair.

Well, this one does contain a cationic quat - stearalkonium chloride - but it's so far down the list, I would be surprised they included even 2% of it. This is a terrible recipe.

Nature's Gate The Original Herbal Hair Conditioner
Ingredients: Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Quaternium-87, Polysorbate 60, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Extract, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Extract, Prunus Serotina (Wild Cherry) Bark Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Arctium Lappa (Burdock) Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Root Extract, Lilium Candidum (White Lily) Bulb Extract, Nelumbo Nucifera (Sacred Lotus) Flower Extract, Quercus Alba (Oak) Bark Extract, Butylene Glycol, Glyceryl Undecylenate, Phenoxyethanol, Fragrance, Caramel.

Really dried out my hair.

They are using a cationic polymer - quaternium-87 - which is meant as a co-conditioner to the cationic quats. The cetearyl alcohol is a moisturizer, and the rest is irrelevant stuff put there to make us interested in the product.


Products I currently use:

Nature’s Gate Herbal Daily Shampoo
Ingredients of the version* I use:
Ingredients: Water, Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, Cocamide DEA, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Ultica Dioca (Nettle) Extract, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract, Chamomile Recutita (Matricaria) Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Extract, Achilea Millefolium (Yarrow) Extract, Rosemarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract, Thymus Vulgaris (Thyme) Extract, Prunus Serotina (Wild Cherry) Bark Extract, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Polyquaternium-10, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Citric Acid, Sodium Chloride, Butylene Glycol, Diazolidiny Urea, Disodium EDTA, Fragrance.

I really like this shampoo. If I let it sit on my hair for too long it is too drying and makes my scalp itch (the itching only started about 6 months ago) before that it was wonderful.
It makes my hair feel wonderful! In fact, for the first few months I made the horrible mistake of not using any conditioner afterward. Which would be about the time I started having problems with the length dryness.

This isn't a bad looking shampoo, but they are missing some of the things I consider essential like panthenol and a hydrolyzed protein (preferably oat). There's nothing here that is special for oily hair - maybe the lavender, definitely the rosemary - but I do like the inclusion of the polyquaternium-10 as a cationic polymer to condition your hair a little while you wash.

*Unfortunately, they have changed the formula and I just found out.

continued on the next post....

[K_Angel]

Swifts email answer continues...

The strange thing is that when I used any of Nature’s Gate conditioners, they dried/fried my hair... But most of their ingredients are the same, so how is that possible?

The Nature's Gate conditioners don't contain any positively charged cationic quaternary compounds. So they aren't frying your hair, they're just not conditioning it properly.

Conditioner:
Giovanni Smooth As Silk™ Deeper Moisture Conditioner
Ingredients: Aqua (purified water) with *rosmarinus officinalis (rosemary) extract, *citrus aurantium dulcis (valencia orange) extract, *mangifera indica (mango) extract, *cymbopogon schoeanthus (lemongrass) extract, *ginkgo biloba extract, *echinacea angustifolia extract, *salix alba (willow bark), *macrocystis pyrifera (sea kelp) extract, *chamomilla recutita (matricaria) leaf extract, *lavandula angustifolia (lavender) extract, *citrus grandis (grapefruit) extract, *glycine soja (soybean) extract, cetyl alcohol, stearyl alcohol, hydrolyzed soy protein, centrimonium bromide, butylene glycol, phenoxyethanol, ethylhexylglycerin, fragrance with essential oils. *Certified organic

Okay, so there's cetrimonium bromide in here, but it's way down on the list. You have hydrolyzed soy protein - a good choice as it shouldn't penetrate your hair - and cetyl and stearyl alcohol. But I don't think these are in levels that are great for our hair if they are so far down the list. The willow bark is great for oily hair, lavender is good for soothing our scalp, grapefruit and orange will help with oily hair, as will rosemary. But without an awesome level of cationic quaternary compound, you're still not getting enough conditioning.


This is the closest thing that gives some form of moisture. But it still feels a little stripped. And two days later my hair is very dry.

Leave-in: Giovanni Direct Leave-In Weightless Moisture Conditioner
Aqua (Purifed) Water, Rosemary (Rosmarinus Officinalis) Oil, Nettle (Urtica Dioica) Oil, Thyme (Thymus Vulgaris) Oil, Birch Leaf (Butela Alba) Oil, Chamomile (Anthemis Nobilis Flower) Oil, Clary (Salvia Sclarea), Lavender (Lavandula Angustifolia), Coltsfoot Leaf (Tussilago Fargara), Yarrow (Achillea Millefolium) Oil, Mallow (Malya Sylvestris), Horsetail (Equisetum Arvense) Oil, Soybean Protein (Glycine Soja), Cetyl Alcohol (Plant Derived), Tocopherol (*Vitamin E), Trace Minerals, Citric Acid (Corn), Sodium Hydroxymethlyglycinate, Grapefruit Seed (Citrus Derived)

This helps with the detangling. I still have tangles, but they are more manageable.

I have no idea why this would detangle your hair because it doesn't contain any cationic compounds or polymers. Perhaps the cetyl alcohol and the birch leaf oil, but there is nothing in this recipe that makes it a conditioner. If you showed me this list without telling me what it was, I would think it was a very poor lotion without emulsifiers. I'd be apprehensive about using this leave in conditioner - it doesn't have any preservative.

There must be something missing from this recipe because there are a ton of oils and no emulsifier. Do you have to shake it before using?


Chamomile Tea rinse: This seems to condition and make my hair feel better, but I can over do it and it will be kind of drying. I’m still experimenting on this.

continued on next post...

[K_Angel]

Swift's email answer continued...

Cassia "tea" rinse:
I used 4 cups of distilled hot water with 2 Tblsp. of Cassia (that I put in a giant DIY tea bag) and soaked for about 1 hour.
1. I clarified my hair
2. Applied Cassia "tea" liberally to my whole head.
3. Especially I let the length soak in the "tea."
4. Then I poured it over my head while catching my hair and the falling stuff back in the measuring bowl.
5, Repeated until it was all gone.
6. While still dripping I stuck my hair in a baggie and rubber band it off of the length so it could sit in whatever liquid collected in that.
7. Then I used a plastic cap to cover my whole head.
8. Followed by a twistie turby thingy.
9. Then becasue it was so drippy, I used a large old towel and made a "shawl" for my shoulders and neck area.

I waited an hour and then rinsed it out by S and then conditioning it for about 5 minutes.

After that my hair was still a mess.... very dry and nasty.... so I put some Giovanni leave-in conditioner and used my mister bottle (chamomile tea with 3 squirts of Giovanni leave-in and 3 drops of camellia oil) to help work through it.

It was a bit weird..... It sure did dry my hair out a LOT. I washed and conditioned it afterward.

It did make my hair feel thicker. But it's taken me several days to counter act the dryness. I've oiled my hair up pretty good at this point.

These things work to make your hair feel thicker by swelling the shaft of the hair. This isn't a good thing for fine or wavy hair because you are plumping it from inside. I'd suggest not doing this again as the body you are getting comes through the swelling of your hair shaft, which will make it feel drier.


Cowboy Magic:
Which I use when my hair is so tangled I can’t do anything but try to save it through hours of detangling (like if I’ve been ill for a week or two).
My hair isn’t bothered by this, but it definitely does not in anyway moisturize my hair. My the next day, my hair is dry.

Ingredients: Cyclomethicone, Dimethicone, Panthenol, Hydrolyzed Silk, Ethylhexy Methoxycinnamate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Fragrance.

This won't moisturize your hair. It's a silicone mixture - but there's definitely an ingredient missing if they are using silk and panthenol, both of which are water soluble and need an emulsifier. This recipe has no conditioners or detanglers in it, nor any moisturizers (save for the silk).

Hydrosol Rose water:

It helps my oily scalp to go one more day. Too astringent for my hair after a few uses on my scalp and makes it itchy. But I can use it a couple of times without too many problems.

===============================

These are the things that I’ve tried in the last 6 months... I have tried to pick things that would work for my hair needs and haven’t really been successful in narrowing down what I need and what I need to avoid. I’m hoping you can see something that I’m missing.

Thanks, K_Angel
----------------------------
I really hope you try making your own conditioners. If you are looking to buy a conditioner, look for those with panthenol, hydrolyzed soy, oat, or corn protein (not silk!), behentrimonium chloride, cetrimonium chloride, and very few oils. Don't bother with anything that has no cationic quaternary compounds, and get a good leave in conditioner with cetrimonium chloride. If your hair doesn't like oils, then stay away from them. Cetrimonium bromide is a good conditioning agent, but it can make your hair feel dry if you aren't using a ton of lovely silicones, proteins, and so on.

Why haven't you tried Pantene? It's actually a very good conditioner with panthenol - something I consider essential - and behentrimonium chloride or methosulfate (unless they've changed the recipe on me!)

The Personal Formulator - they're the only ones who carry the cetrimonium chloride.

I hope I've managed to help a little bit.

Bye for now,
Susan

End of email answer from Swift.

[K_Angel]

FYI:

Cetac is the shorthand for cetrimonium chloride, a cationic quaternary compound we use in our hair care products for detangling and softness, whereas cetyl alcohol is a non-ionic thickener and moisturizer that we can put into conditioners as well as lotions.

[K_Angel]

how do you keep your water at 120 degrees F when you are trying to melt the little pastel things?

[K_Angel]

This may be a dumb question.... Can extracts be replaced with EO's/herbal teas, or am I missing the point all together?

After the base, I'm thinking of using some rosemary and other things that help with moisture and etc... And since I'm not really sure I want to invest in extracts, would I be able to add to a base teas/EOs and if so, how would I do that? Or are there benefits in extracts that I cannot obtain through EOs/teas?

I apologize ahead of time if this is a dumb question. :o
Here is the answer I got from Swift:

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/04/question-including-different-rosemary.html

[K_Angel]

*************bump********

[K_Angel]

In a double boiler, how do I know when the water is 120 degrees F? Or what I really mean is, how do I keep it there for 20 minutes to melt the BTMS/conditioner solids into it? Do you control the flame or?

TIA! :blossom:

[Norai]

In a double boiler, how do I know when the water is 120 degrees F? Or what I really mean is, how do I keep it there for 20 minutes to melt the BTMS/conditioner solids into it? Do you control the flame or?

TIA! :blossom:

Don't know where the 120 deg came from, but you can just melt it as you normally would in a double boiler - bring the water to a boil, turn the heat down to low, and put the btms in the top portion. It doesn't have to be exactly 120 degrees at all. Nothing bad will happen at a higher temp in the double boiler - you can't scorch it or anything, you're limited to the boiling temp of water. :)

I normally melt it in the microwave to 160 or so, hth. The microwave works just as well, you just have to watch it more closely.

[K_Angel]

Don't know where the 120 deg came from, but you can just melt it as you normally would in a double boiler - bring the water to a boil, turn the heat down to low, and put the btms in the top portion. It doesn't have to be exactly 120 degrees at all. Nothing bad will happen at a higher temp in the double boiler - you can't scorch it or anything, you're limited to the boiling temp of water. :)

I normally melt it in the microwave to 160 or so, hth. The microwave works just as well, you just have to watch it more closely.

I can get so overwhelmed by certain details that I can't figure out. LOL

I don't currently own a double boiler nor have I ever used one. Basically, if I understand correctly, I boil the water in the under pot and place the other pot on top. At that point do I try to melt my things? Or do I wait until I turn down the double boiler pot on the bottom?

If I use the Microwave, how do I keep from over frying the stuff?

TIA! :flower:

[K_Angel]

Over on the BTMS thread, Aeren gave her recipe using it. And since we've all been talking about recipes I thought I'd share a link to that post :)

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1049994&postcount=10

[K_Angel]

Spring: I found someone who sells the collagen you were looking for:

http://www.personalformulator.com/wvss/index.php?cPath=12

If I remember correctly, collagen is a humectant like substance? So, be careful if you have trouble with that. :)

[K_Angel]

Ok, I've ordered the ingredients I needed and here's the formula I"m going to try first:

BTMS
Distilled water
Germal Liquid (Preservative)
Silk Protein
Panthenol
Centimonium Chloride
Cyclomethicone
Dimethicone
Fragrance

At least that's what I'm going to try first. :)

The stuff is coming from South Carolina, so I imagine it will take a week or two till it gets here, but I'm so excited! :cheese:

Anyone else trying anything interesting??????

[LoveMyLongHair]

[quote=K_Angel;1060815]Ok, I've ordered the ingredients I needed and here's the formula I"m going to try first:



The stuff is coming from South Carolina, so I imagine it will take a week or two till it gets here, but I'm so excited! :cheese:

quote]


K Angel, do you mind if I ask the site information? I am in SC and would love to get something locally! Thanks!:p

[K_Angel]

[quote=K_Angel;1060815]Ok, I've ordered the ingredients I needed and here's the formula I"m going to try first:



The stuff is coming from South Carolina, so I imagine it will take a week or two till it gets here, but I'm so excited! :cheese:

quote]


K Angel, do you mind if I ask the site information? I am in SC and would love to get something locally! Thanks!:p
You bet! :) Here's the URL to their contact page:

http://www.theherbarie.com/Contact-Us-p-87.html

Gives their address and phone number. They are in Prosperity, SC 29127

HTH! :blossom:

[K_Angel]

One thing I should clarify. I bought all the ingredients from the herbarie except the centrimonium chloride. Which is only sold at the Personal Formulator.

Even though it's a scary name, the centrimonium chloride is an awesome detangler!!!! I'm so thrilled to have discovered it!!!!! :cheese:

But all the other ingredients I bought at theherbarie.com

Roseann70 was mixing up a batch of her new conditioner bar (she's a soap maker) and it had all the things I was wanting to try on my hair, she sent me one and it is awesome!!!! My hair feels so soft and silky and tangle free!!!!! I'm so thrilled. It's been a year since my hair felt like that! It's absolutely what my hair needed!

So from that she helped me come up with the ingredient list (above) and am going to try to make my own liquid conditioner! Thanks Roseann70!!! :flower: I could never have done it without you!!!! :)

Oh and she advised me to buy a stick blender too. So, I'm looking for one now! I'm so excited to try this recipe!!!!!! Can you tell I'm excited????? :D :cheese:

I'll keep everyone posted on my progress!!!!!! :blossom:

[celeritas]

Wow, it's weird to join a forum and see one's name in a thread already (I'm normally Swift, but it was taken)! There are so many ways to make a conditioner and so many ways to tweak it for your hair type, but it's a fun journey to see what works and doesn't work before you hit upon the perfect recipe! (Conditioner bars are awesome!)

The double boiler method - to me - is a better way to keep control over your temperature than the microwave (you can accidentally burn the BTMS if you don't monitor it). I find a candy thermometer works best for temperature monitoring - just place it in the container every once in a while to see if you're up to 70˚C. I generally boil my distilled water first, then add it to the container with the BTMS, then place it in the double boiler. This takes less time than melting the BTMS on its own. I still heat and hold at 70˚C for 20 minutes to make sure I've eliminated any possible contamination in the water (even if it is distilled!).

I can't rave enough about cetrimonium chloride. 2% makes your hair easier to brush - wet or dry - and it makes hair feel softer. Since combing forces are one of the ways to damage your hair, the more you reduce them, the better. It will make a conditioner much thinner - 7% BTMS can be quite thick, but 7% BTMS with 2% cetrimonium chloride makes for a quite liquidy conditioner!

[K_Angel]

Wow, it's weird to join a forum and see one's name in a thread already (I'm normally Swift, but it was taken)! There are so many ways to make a conditioner and so many ways to tweak it for your hair type, but it's a fun journey to see what works and doesn't work before you hit upon the perfect recipe! (Conditioner bars are awesome!)

The double boiler method - to me - is a better way to keep control over your temperature than the microwave (you can accidentally burn the BTMS if you don't monitor it). I find a candy thermometer works best for temperature monitoring - just place it in the container every once in a while to see if you're up to 70˚C. I generally boil my distilled water first, then add it to the container with the BTMS, then place it in the double boiler. This takes less time than melting the BTMS on its own. I still heat and hold at 70˚C for 20 minutes to make sure I've eliminated any possible contamination in the water (even if it is distilled!).

I can't rave enough about cetrimonium chloride. 2% makes your hair easier to brush - wet or dry - and it makes hair feel softer. Since combing forces are one of the ways to damage your hair, the more you reduce them, the better. It will make a conditioner much thinner - 7% BTMS can be quite thick, but 7% BTMS with 2% cetrimonium chloride makes for a quite liquidy conditioner!
:waving: Hi Swift! Welcome! And thank you for your valuable information!!! :)

[Jen123]

I have not read the whole thread yet, but can you just add a little of the powdered base from wholesale supplies each day your going to use. It would be easier to take on trips and no preservative would be needed. Can the powdered base be frozen?

[K_Angel]

I have not read the whole thread yet, but can you just add a little of the powdered base from wholesale supplies each day your going to use. It would be easier to take on trips and no preservative would be needed. Can the powdered base be frozen?
I'm sorry.... I'm not quite clear on what you're asking....

[Jen123]

K Angel,

Is it possible just to mix up the powdered conditioner on a daily basis with hot tap water? That way on trips I could take the powder and not liquid conditioner.

[celeritas]

I'm not sure there is a powdered conditioner - they are composed of fatty materials, which means they generally come in a pellet or pastille format. You have to melt them and mix them into the water, then let them come to room temperature to thicken before using them as a conditioner. You simply wouldn't have the time to do this at home, let alone while travelling. As well, you'd have to travel with your proteins, silicones, preservatives, humectants, and so on, as well as an adequate mixing vessel and bottle, which would be a giant pain in the bum.

You could make a conditioner bar - I love these when I'm travelling. I have a recipe on my blog for my favourite bar (good for my coarse, frizzy hair).

[K_Angel]

K Angel,

Is it possible just to mix up the powdered conditioner on a daily basis with hot tap water? That way on trips I could take the powder and not liquid conditioner.
Like celeritas said, I've never seen it come in a "powderr" form before. Just the "plastic like" little pieces.

But the conditioner bar that she is talking about might work well for you. It's awesome! Roseann70 made some and bless her heart sent me one! I'm so impressed! It works wonderfully! And would be soooooooo perfect for traveling! Let me go and find the recipe for you so you can see if it won't work for your situation.

Here's the place:

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/search/label/hair%20products

You have to scroll almost ALL the way down to get to it, but it even has great instructions to follow. :)

I think the other thing you might be talking about is this:

http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/ProductDetail.aspx?CatalogID=2&GroupID=748&CategoryID=1788&ProductID=4833&ProductName=Crafters+Choice%E2%84%A2++Hair+Conditi oner+Concentrate

And I tried that, but it's still not powder it's that pasitlle stuff that feels kind of like little waxy plastic-y sort of things. And it does operate as a "just add water" sort of conditioner, but the problem is that you have to get the temperature to 120 degree F. And that wouldn't be very easy to do traveling. Plus, you'd need something that you could mix it with. Ideally, one of those stick blender things or something, because when I tried to do it just regularly, it didn't really mix right. Also, you can't overheat the stuff because it will end up messing up the preservative balance it has or something like that, if I remember right.

Was that what you were thinking of?

[K_Angel]

Ok, sooooooooo I finally got all my ingredients in the mail! :cheese:

Now, to plan my "attack!" :laugh:

Ok, obviously first I have to get the double boiler going. Now, I've never used a double boiler before... so, do I just but that on high or medium or?

I need to have some separate boiling water to mix with the hot phase. And put this into the double boiler? Or should I use a pyrex bowl inside the double boiler???

[celeritas]

Are you making a liquid or solid conditioner? With a liquid conditioner, I boil my water first, then add it to the BTMS in the double boiler. (I turn my double boiler up to full until the water boils, then I turn it down so it's only lightly bubbling. I put the BTMS and other heat phase ingredients in a Pyrex jug and add the water to it.) Mix well in the double boiler until it is all melted, remove from the double boiler and put aside until it reaches 45˚C (I like to mix it as it cools because I like to check the viscosity). Add your cool down phase and mix well. When it reaches room temperature, bottle and enjoy! I generally use a piping bag to get the conditioner in the bottle if it's thick; a funnel if it's thinner.

Have fun! Making conditioners is so addictive! You'll want to make an intense and a leave-in and one with a different scent, and one your mom will like....

[ccmuffingirl]

I regularly deep condition with mayonnaise. My hair LOVES it. Leaves it soft and shiny. Sometimes I even make my own mayonnaise, but usually I just use the regular kind. I usually wash my hair first with aritha tea mixed with some other herbs my hair likes, then I apply the mayo mixed with various oils and honey, let it sit for an hour or so, then I co-wash with Aubrey Organics Honeysuckle Rose conditioner, and when my hair dries it's so shiny and soft. I've also seen mayonnaise and avocado deep conditioner recipes that have a similar affect. I believe that eggs/egg yolks enhance curl pattern a bit. I liked the results this girl had with it on youtube. Here's part one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn1RT9KO7YU) and part two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM3YHVum87k&feature=related)

But if you are looking to make a replica of commercial conditioners, I've read that Benhentrimonium Methosulfate, which is created from rapeseed, is an ingredient that gives slip similar to that of cones.

[celeritas]

Behentrimonium methosulfate is cationic quaternary compound in BTMS and BTMS-50, which is my favourite conditioning agent. It has a great slip, but I wouldn't compare it to silicones. Nothing really compares to silicones for the slip, but you could use some oils or cetyl alcohol to increase it in a conditioner. There are some silicone replacements, but they're still not as slippery as dimethicone and don't reduce the combing forces and friction as well.

I notice the Aubrey conditioner states it uses coconut oil. That's a fantastic ingredient for hair; one of the best oils and so inexpensive compared to some of the other exotic things we could use. It makes my coarse hair feel really soft...but I'm an oily girl, so I have to wash my hair later that same day to get rid of the greasies!

[K_Angel]

Are you making a liquid or solid conditioner? With a liquid conditioner, I boil my water first, then add it to the BTMS in the double boiler. (I turn my double boiler up to full until the water boils, then I turn it down so it's only lightly bubbling. I put the BTMS and other heat phase ingredients in a Pyrex jug and add the water to it.) Mix well in the double boiler until it is all melted, remove from the double boiler and put aside until it reaches 45˚C (I like to mix it as it cools because I like to check the viscosity). Add your cool down phase and mix well. When it reaches room temperature, bottle and enjoy! I generally use a piping bag to get the conditioner in the bottle if it's thick; a funnel if it's thinner.

Have fun! Making conditioners is so addictive! You'll want to make an intense and a leave-in and one with a different scent, and one your mom will like....
Oh, I'm making a liquid conditioner..... that would be good to include! :o

Just for the record, here's the recipe I'm going to use:

7% BTMS 14g
.5% preservative 1g
2% hydrolyzed protein -- 4g
2% panthenol -4g
2% cetromonium Chloride - 4g
2% cyclomethicone - 4g
2% dimethicone - 4g
2% fragrance or essential oils 4g
80.5% water 161g

Ok, so I don't blend until it's in the cool down stage? Just melt until then? The cool down stage is when I take it off of the burner?

Also, how thick will this recipe be?

[celeritas]

You're making my favourite recipe. I find this awesome for my coarse, frizz prone hair! (I love it with oatmeal, milk & honey fragrance. So delicious!) Mix it well while it's in the double boiler, then while it's cooling. You won't be able to resist doing it, and it's good to see how the consistency changes as it cools down. The cool down stage is when you remove it from the heat so it can reach 45˚C so you can add the panthenol, preservative, silicones, and fragrance oils. Stir it if you like during this time.

Without the cetrimonium chloride, this is a thick conditioner. With it, it's a nice medium consistency that's easy to spread over your hair. Oh, and I'd add the cetrimonium chloride after you remove it from the heat. Mix it well. You can add it when it's being heated - that's not the issue - but I find it is slightly thicker when you add it just as you remove it from the heat!

Which protein are you using? Don't forget to add it to the heated stage. Did I warn you that making your own conditioner is addictive?

[K_Angel]

I regularly deep condition with mayonnaise. My hair LOVES it. Leaves it soft and shiny. Sometimes I even make my own mayonnaise, but usually I just use the regular kind. I usually wash my hair first with aritha tea mixed with some other herbs my hair likes, then I apply the mayo mixed with various oils and honey, let it sit for an hour or so, then I co-wash with Aubrey Organics Honeysuckle Rose conditioner, and when my hair dries it's so shiny and soft. I've also seen mayonnaise and avocado deep conditioner recipes that have a similar affect. I believe that eggs/egg yolks enhance curl pattern a bit. I liked the results this girl had with it on youtube. Here's part one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn1RT9KO7YU) and part two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM3YHVum87k&feature=related)

But if you are looking to make a replica of commercial conditioners, I've read that Benhentrimonium Methosulfate, which is created from rapeseed, is an ingredient that gives slip similar to that of cones.
Thank you for your great suggestion! :blossom:

[K_Angel]

You're making my favourite recipe. I find this awesome for my coarse, frizz prone hair! (I love it with oatmeal, milk & honey fragrance. So delicious!) Mix it well while it's in the double boiler, then while it's cooling. You won't be able to resist doing it, and it's good to see how the consistency changes as it cools down. The cool down stage is when you remove it from the heat so it can reach 45˚C so you can add the panthenol, preservative, silicones, and fragrance oils. Stir it if you like during this time.

Without the cetrimonium chloride, this is a thick conditioner. With it, it's a nice medium consistency that's easy to spread over your hair. Oh, and I'd add the cetrimonium chloride after you remove it from the heat. Mix it well. You can add it when it's being heated - that's not the issue - but I find it is slightly thicker when you add it just as you remove it from the heat!

Which protein are you using? Don't forget to add it to the heated stage. Did I warn you that making your own conditioner is addictive?
I'm using silk protein, only because I already had it in stock. When I make my next ordering, if I'm successful at making this first conditioner, I plan on getting an oat protein. I think it's supposed to make hair softer or add moisture?

I hope I get addicted!!!!! I'm so tired of commercial products that don't work just the way I want it. :(

Not to jump ahead, but if I'm successful at making this conditioner, I'm going to try making a nice shampoo too. My favorite just recently changed it's recipe and I find that just so infuriating! But I'm a little afraid of shampoo making just yet. As a first timer, I'll just start with the conditioner and move from there. :)

[celeritas]

I find shampoo fun and simple to make. I love the syndet shampoo bars - I haven't found anyone yet who didn't like them - and I like liquid shampoos as well. Do you have the ingredient list from the pre-changed shampoo formulation you liked? If so, send it along and perhaps we can work on replicating it!

[K_Angel]

I find shampoo fun and simple to make. I love the syndet shampoo bars - I haven't found anyone yet who didn't like them - and I like liquid shampoos as well. Do you have the ingredient list from the pre-changed shampoo formulation you liked? If so, send it along and perhaps we can work on replicating it!
Ingredients: Water, Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, Cocamide DEA, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Ultica Dioca (Nettle) Extract, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract, Chamomile Recutita (Matricaria) Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Extract, Achilea Millefolium (Yarrow) Extract, Rosemarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract, Thymus Vulgaris (Thyme) Extract, Prunus Serotina (Wild Cherry) Bark Extract, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Polyquaternium-10, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Citric Acid, Sodium Chloride, Butylene Glycol, Diazolidiny Urea, Disodium EDTA, Fragrance.


I don't know what it is about it, but I really like how soft it makes my hair feel. It would be awesome to be able to make my own that does the same. :)

Thanks bunches! :flower:

[celeritas]

This looks like it's intended for oily hair. I think the shampoo might feel lovely for a few reasons...
1. The cocamide DEA is a moisturizing ingredient, so your hair will feel less crunchy and more moisturized after washing. It also boosts foam and makes the lather feel more slippery;
2. The inclusion of polyquat 10, a cationic polymer, will make hair feel more conditioned after rinsing;
3. All the surfactants are mild ones, and they are made milder by the inclusion of the cocamide DEA and polyquat 10; and
4. The EDTA is good for chelating hard water ions, so if you have harder water, this will isolate the metal ions and ensure they don't deposit on your hair.

You could make something like this. C14-16 olefin sulfonate (Bioterge AS-40) is a great surfactant for oily hair. SLeS is a great all around, gentle cleansing surfactant, and cocamidopropyl betaine is a good amphoteric surfactant you can use to thicken your mixture and confer more mildness.

I'm not sure if the extracts included are powdered or hydrosols: Given they appear on the list before the cocamidopropyl betaine and polyquat 10, I'm going to guess they're in there at more than 1% and that means they're probably hydrosols. I'd go with 10% lavender hydrosol, 10% rosemary hydrosol, and 10% chamomile hydrosol if you have them. (If not, then 0.5% chamomile extract, 0.5% rosemary extract, and 0.5% lavender essential oil). I'd use the sage and thyme as essential oils at 0.5% each and you can use either rosemary essential oil at 0.5% or rosemary extract at 0.5% or the rosemary hydrosol at 10%. I wouldn't go with all three for the rosemary, so pick one! (If you have an essential oil, use that. If you have an extract, use that. If you have a hydrosol, use that. We're trying to get the goodness of each ingredient into the mix, so however you do it, keep a record!) I don't know where to get nettle, yarrow, or wild cherry, so if you find those extracts or hydrosols use them at 10% for a hydrosol, 0.5% for an extract, or 0.5% for an essential oil.

I'd try something like this...
28% water
10% chamomile hydrosol
10% lavender hydrosol
10% rosemary hydrosol
15% C14-16 olefin sulfonate
10% SLeS
10% cocamidopropyl betaine
up to 5% polyquat 10, polyquat 7, honeyquat (cationic polymer)
0.5% to 1% preservative of choice
0.1% EDTA (if you have it)
0.5% thyme essential oil
0.5% sage essential oil
0.5% rosemary essential oil or rosemary extract (If you aren't using the hydrosol)

You will likely need to thicken this, so start with 0.5% liquid Crothix when the shampoo comes to room temperature, and increase by 0.5% at a time up to 3% until it reaches the thickness you like. Crothix not only thickens but it moisturizes without oils and increases mildness, so it's a three in one ingredient!

If it doesn't feel exactly the same, then reduce the surfactants. Homecrafters tend to use way more surfactants than the commercial brands - I tend to use 30% to 40%, whereas a normal use shampoo is likely to be around 17.5% - because we want things to be more concentrated!

Good luck with it! I love shampoos!

[K_Angel]

Celerita: Could you help over on the BTMS thread? Someone asked if it was like SLS....

Here's the thread:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=1081406#post1081406

[K_Angel]

This looks like it's intended for oily hair. I think the shampoo might feel lovely for a few reasons...
1. The cocamide DEA is a moisturizing ingredient, so your hair will feel less crunchy and more moisturized after washing. It also boosts foam and makes the lather feel more slippery;
2. The inclusion of polyquat 10, a cationic polymer, will make hair feel more conditioned after rinsing;
3. All the surfactants are mild ones, and they are made milder by the inclusion of the cocamide DEA and polyquat 10; and
4. The EDTA is good for chelating hard water ions, so if you have harder water, this will isolate the metal ions and ensure they don't deposit on your hair.

You could make something like this. C14-16 olefin sulfonate (Bioterge AS-40) is a great surfactant for oily hair. SLeS is a great all around, gentle cleansing surfactant, and cocamidopropyl betaine is a good amphoteric surfactant you can use to thicken your mixture and confer more mildness.

I'm not sure if the extracts included are powdered or hydrosols: Given they appear on the list before the cocamidopropyl betaine and polyquat 10, I'm going to guess they're in there at more than 1% and that means they're probably hydrosols. I'd go with 10% lavender hydrosol, 10% rosemary hydrosol, and 10% chamomile hydrosol if you have them. (If not, then 0.5% chamomile extract, 0.5% rosemary extract, and 0.5% lavender essential oil). I'd use the sage and thyme as essential oils at 0.5% each and you can use either rosemary essential oil at 0.5% or rosemary extract at 0.5% or the rosemary hydrosol at 10%. I wouldn't go with all three for the rosemary, so pick one! (If you have an essential oil, use that. If you have an extract, use that. If you have a hydrosol, use that. We're trying to get the goodness of each ingredient into the mix, so however you do it, keep a record!) I don't know where to get nettle, yarrow, or wild cherry, so if you find those extracts or hydrosols use them at 10% for a hydrosol, 0.5% for an extract, or 0.5% for an essential oil.

I'd try something like this...
28% water
10% chamomile hydrosol
10% lavender hydrosol
10% rosemary hydrosol
15% C14-16 olefin sulfonate
10% SLeS
10% cocamidopropyl betaine
up to 5% polyquat 10, polyquat 7, honeyquat (cationic polymer)
0.5% to 1% preservative of choice
0.1% EDTA (if you have it)
0.5% thyme essential oil
0.5% sage essential oil
0.5% rosemary essential oil or rosemary extract (If you aren't using the hydrosol)

You will likely need to thicken this, so start with 0.5% liquid Crothix when the shampoo comes to room temperature, and increase by 0.5% at a time up to 3% until it reaches the thickness you like. Crothix not only thickens but it moisturizes without oils and increases mildness, so it's a three in one ingredient!

If it doesn't feel exactly the same, then reduce the surfactants. Homecrafters tend to use way more surfactants than the commercial brands - I tend to use 30% to 40%, whereas a normal use shampoo is likely to be around 17.5% - because we want things to be more concentrated!

Good luck with it! I love shampoos!
WOW!!!! Awesome!!!! Thank you!!!!!! Do you know where I can find the ingredients?

Is honeyquat related to honey? I've tried honey in my hair before and it had a very stripping feeling. But the polyquat that was in the shampoo obviously didn't bother me.... so that's cool!!!! :)

Thank you for breaking it all down for me!!!!! :blossom:

[K_Angel]

Celeritas: What is the difference between polyquat 10 and polyquat 7?

[celeritas]

Honeyquat is related to honey in the sense that it is the starting point for the product. It is positively charged , so it will be substantive to your hair. Honey is not. It is another type of polyquat. The difference between polyquat 7 and 10 is the starting ingredient. Polyquat 10 is derived from hydroethylcellulose; polyquat 7 is a co-polymer of some stuff I can't type this time of night. Each works with different surfactants, but polyquat 7 and 10 are compatible with more surfactants than other polyquats.

If you live in the Pacific NW, you could order some things from Brambleberry (http://www.brambleberry.com located in Bellingham) or from the Herbarie (http://www.theherbarie.com) or the Personal formulator (http://thepersonalformulator.com). The Herbarie is likely to have all the stuff you need for a shampoo.

[K_Angel]

Honeyquat is related to honey in the sense that it is the starting point for the product. It is positively charged , so it will be substantive to your hair. Honey is not. It is another type of polyquat. The difference between polyquat 7 and 10 is the starting ingredient. Polyquat 10 is derived from hydroethylcellulose; polyquat 7 is a co-polymer of some stuff I can't type this time of night. Each works with different surfactants, but polyquat 7 and 10 are compatible with more surfactants than other polyquats.

If you live in the Pacific NW, you could order some things from Brambleberry (http://www.brambleberry.com located in Bellingham) or from the Herbarie (http://www.theherbarie.com) or the Personal formulator (http://thepersonalformulator.com). The Herbarie is likely to have all the stuff you need for a shampoo.
Awesome! Thanks for the URLs!!!!!! :)

[Jen123]

Here's a link for a very simple conditioner/ gel recipe. I haven't tried it yet, but it is something I've been thinking of for a while.
http://www.sustainlane.com/reviews/how-to-make-a-low-cost-hair-conditioner-and-gelt/73LC2FJLQNNAQID4RBPS47FMYBC8 (http://www.sustainlane.com/reviews/how-to-make-a-low-cost-hair-conditioner-and-gel/73LC2FJLQNNAQID4RBPS47FMYBC8)
The simplicity of this really intrigued me as it would be very easy to leave the water out and mix up whenever necessary. I mixed it up last night with 1/2 teaspoon Jojoba as my oil.

It provided great slip for detangling both in the shower and after. It applied just like regular conditioner. My hair dried shiny and stayed less tangly on the ends all day. I'm very optimistic this is what I'll be playing with. I'm going to try substituting catnip tea as the water. I've also thought about using butter-milk in place of the water.

[K_Angel]

The simplicity of this really intrigued me as it would be very easy to leave the water out and mix up whenever necessary. I mixed it up last night with 1/2 teaspoon Jojoba as my oil.

It provided great slip for detangling both in the shower and after. It applied just like regular conditioner. My hair dried shiny and stayed less tangly on the ends all day. I'm very optimistic this is what I'll be playing with. I'm going to try substituting catnip tea as the water. I've also thought about using butter-milk in place of the water.
Have you had a good experience with catnip before? Only checking, because you'll not want to use it unless you have experience with it. Many many people really like it, but in my case my hair really snarled and hated it. So, I just want to make sure..... :flower:

Buttermilk? Wouldn't that be hard to travel with? Or do you mean dry mix?

[K_Angel]

The simplicity of this really intrigued me as it would be very easy to leave the water out and mix up whenever necessary. I mixed it up last night with 1/2 teaspoon Jojoba as my oil.

It provided great slip for detangling both in the shower and after. It applied just like regular conditioner. My hair dried shiny and stayed less tangly on the ends all day. I'm very optimistic this is what I'll be playing with. I'm going to try substituting catnip tea as the water. I've also thought about using butter-milk in place of the water.
I wonder why this recipe worked for you?? It's basically thick water with oil in it. I don't see anything in it that would detangle or condition.... don't get me wrong, I'm glad it worked for you.... I'm just not sure why it did. :o

[Jen123]

The buttermilk would be dry. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that it is very conditioning for the hair.

I have not tried catnip yet, but it was on my very long list of things I want to try. I brewed the tea last night, but won't be able to use it until tomorrow or later. I have dark wavy hair, so I hope I like it.

Either both or one of the guar gum and xanthan gum are very slippery. That is where I think the detangling is coming from. It also distributes the oil well. Looking around on the web quite a few natural conditioners use one or both. I hope this works for me long term--at least until I can get more sophisticated like you guys. :)

[celeritas]

If the guar gum is converted to being a cationic polymer - like cationic guar gum - then it would be a very mild conditioner, the kind of thing you'd add to a shampoo or leave in conditioner. But this is only the cationic guar gum - regular guar gum offers nothing to your hair (and if she bought it from the health food store, it's regular guar gum). The xanthan gum isn't a conditioner - in fact, it is incompatible with positively charged ingredients. As K_Angel points out, this isn't a conditioner - it's thick water with oil in it.

I can't think of what would be in buttermilk - other than fat - that would be conditioning. It's not positively charged, so it can't behave as a conditioner on your hair. Fats can make our hair feel lubricated and smooth, but they aren't conditioning by definition as they are neutrally charged or non-ionic and won't adhere to the hair for any significant period of time. We need our conditioners to adsorb or stick to our hair strands to be truly conditioning. (I'm not talking about a waxy build up but a layer of positively charged molecules that will be electrically charged to our negatively charged hair.)

Soft hair doesn't equal conditioned. There are tons of things that make our hair feel really soft in the short term - river or lake water, getting a colour or a perm - but they are damaging in the long term. There are sea salt sprays out there for hair that can trash your hair quicker than getting a perm, but because they make your hair feel fuller and/or softer, people use them and create serious long term damage without knowing it because we think soft hair equals healthy, conditioned hair. There are some hair types that can benefit from oils - African and Indian hair, in general - but this isn't true conditioning, it's moisturizing, which is a different thing.

If you really want to use oils to moisturize your hair, coconut oil has been found to be one of the best - if not the best - for our hair. It penetrates the hair strand and moisturizes from within, which reduces the friction. It's super cheap compared to all the other oils you will see suggested for your hair - jojoba, sea buckthorn, avocado - and has a long shelf life of 2 years. You don't need to mix it with anything; just melt slightly and use.

There is a good reason to use fatty cationic ingredients in a conditioner - they can help (temporarily) seal split ends, they can keep the cuticle from being trashed (which reduces long term damage), and they can make our hair feel lubricated so they glide nicely over each other and not incur friction or combing forces. (There are some really good non-cationic ingredients that are good for our hair - for instance, panthenol - but those are good for different reasons.)

[K_Angel]

The buttermilk would be dry. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that it is very conditioning for the hair.

I have not tried catnip yet, but it was on my very long list of things I want to try. I brewed the tea last night, but won't be able to use it until tomorrow or later. I have dark wavy hair, so I hope I like it.

Either both or one of the guar gum and xanthan gum are very slippery. That is where I think the detangling is coming from. It also distributes the oil well. Looking around on the web quite a few natural conditioners use one or both. I hope this works for me long term--at least until I can get more sophisticated like you guys. :)
Your hair being a 3a probably can handle the oils better than mine does... I get the "drowned rodent" look if I use too much! (read two drops!) :rollin:

After reading Celerita's information, I guess that means the guar is coating the hair. Do you clarify or use SLeS or something like that for a shampoo?

And with the catnip.... make sure you follow Ktani's recipe. Even if your hair likes it, using over the amount can be REALLY drying to your hair. I've used Chamomile tea rinses sometimes and you don't want to just brew a tea cup and not pay attention to amounts. Teas are acidic (I'm no chemist) and you have to be careful. :blossom:

What condition is your hair starting in? Is it colored or permed or virgin? What problems do you have with it? I know it's easy to get overwhelmed when first coming on the LHC, so the best thing is take stock of your hair's personal needs. Are the products you were using before working? Or were they not working? What are your hair goals? For example, are you trying the catnip for conditioning effects, coloring your grays, or to help stop split ends? Questions like these can help you narrow down what you want to try and not try. :)

Hope this helps! :flower:

[K_Angel]

If you really want to use oils to moisturize your hair, coconut oil has been found to be one of the best - if not the best - for our hair. It penetrates the hair strand and moisturizes from within, which reduces the friction. It's super cheap compared to all the other oils you will see suggested for your hair - jojoba, sea buckthorn, avocado - and has a long shelf life of 2 years. You don't need to mix it with anything; just melt slightly and use.

Other than in conditioner bars, how do you use coconut oil in hair? I've used it as a deep oiling with warm towels on my head, but it made my scalp itch...... so I'm curious what other applications there are for it? :)

[celeritas]

I'm not saying the guar will coat your hair - the non-cationic guar won't do anything as it won't stay on your hair, but the cationic stuff will. Substantivity means the positively charged conditioner is attracted to your negatively charged hair and will adsorb or form a very very thin layer on the hair strand. It's an electrostatic attraction, not a build up or coating, so you don't need anything special to remove it. It isn't like a layer of wax or oil - it's more like a layer of molecules that are attracted to other molecules.

As for using coconut oil, you could put it in a conditioner or leave in conditioner or melt it and use it before washing. If your scalp is itchy, stop using it. This is your body's way of telling you it doesn't like it. You can try other oils - avocado or camellia - and see how your scalp responds. Or you can use a hot oil treatment but keep it away from your scalp - just oil the ends and see what happens.

[K_Angel]

I'm not saying the guar will coat your hair - the non-cationic guar won't do anything as it won't stay on your hair, but the cationic stuff will. Substantivity means the positively charged conditioner is attracted to your negatively charged hair and will adsorb or form a very very thin layer on the hair strand. It's an electrostatic attraction, not a build up or coating, so you don't need anything special to remove it. It isn't like a layer of wax or oil - it's more like a layer of molecules that are attracted to other molecules.

Oh, ok, sorry, thank you for clarifying :)


As for using coconut oil, you could put it in a conditioner or leave in conditioner or melt it and use it before washing. If your scalp is itchy, stop using it. This is your body's way of telling you it doesn't like it. You can try other oils - avocado or camellia - and see how your scalp responds. Or you can use a hot oil treatment but keep it away from your scalp - just oil the ends and see what happens.

I have successfully used Camellia japonica. No itching. I've been curious about avocado oil... is it worth experimenting with or is it just better to stick with what I already know works?

[Jen123]

Hi KAngel,

I've used the stuff made with catnip tea and I'm still really liking it. My hair has stayed less tangly all day here in windy country. Thanks for the heads up on the catnip recipe. I reread it and it said to steep for thirty minutes. I let mine sit all night. It still worked fine (probably because I only leave it on for a few minutes.)

I don't know if the guar is coating it or not yet, but we'll see. I try to clarify once a month with watered down baking soda and then deep treat. I use shampoo bars for my shampoo. And I forgot to say that I do put about a 1/16 tsp of citric acid in this mix as well to close the cuticle.

My hair has never been dyed (well except for green with food coloring the last day of seventh grade at my extremely conservative school:D). My hair is naturally curly. The only problems I really have with it are the ends get stuck together in some areas. I guess velcroey? I would also like it to be shinier. Really the only part of my hair that gives me fits is a triangle shaped area the back. I don't if I'm not reaching it all of the way with oil and stuff or it is just different than the rest of my hair. It was the first part of my hair to actually go curly in my twenties. I was mortified when I first saw a picture of my hair from the rear-straight hair with a triangle of curly hair.:rolleyes:

My whole reason for wanting to switch was to eliminate using plastic bottles. Knowing that the bottles are at least seventy percent water really bothers me, so I am really working towards that. I can't say my products were not working, but now I know there are so many better things to try. Things that can be customized. Like I live in a very dry climate, so I probably should stay away from glycerine. I also can't be around any scents and perfumes because I am extremely allergic. So I guess my goals are environmental, chemical avoidance, scent free, detangle, condition, shine, split ends and reach waste length hair.

LHC is definitely overwhelming with so many things to try in so short a time. I think I have a years' worth of experiments to try already. I have several other things to try in the conditioner I'm making. They just got here yesterday.
aloe powder
honey powder (for my daughter's blond hair)
collagen
hydrolyzed wheat protein.
buttermilk powder

It is just fun to be able to play around and great to get everyone's advice and ideas. One thing for sure, I think someone needs to hide my credit card. I had no idea so many cool things existed. Aren't you the one talking about that cool dress on Ebay?:o

[K_Angel]

I've used the stuff made with catnip tea and I'm still really liking it. My hair has stayed less tangly all day here in windy country. Thanks for the heads up on the catnip recipe. I reread it and it said to steep for thirty minutes. I let mine sit all night. It still worked fine (probably because I only leave it on for a few minutes.)


Oh excellent! I've heard great things about using catnip tea rinses! And for those who can use it, it has helped them with reducing split ends. Ktani talked about how after she had cut out all her split ends and had been using the catnip tea that she hadn't had any new split ends since then. So that's encouraging. She also has successfully covered her gray hair with the faint yellow that the tea leaves in her hair. So, for those who can use it, it seems to be making their hair happy. :)

Celeritas: Do you know why, from a chemistry stand point, the catnip tea would work so well on some people's hair and on others would dry it out?




I don't know if the guar is coating it or not yet, but we'll see. I try to clarify once a month with watered down baking soda and then deep treat. I use shampoo bars for my shampoo. And I forgot to say that I do put about a 1/16 tsp of citric acid in this mix as well to close the cuticle.

Celeritas said that the Guar doesn't build up. So that was good. I'm still a little concerned with the recipe as it is because I think it may not be taking care of some of the other needs of your hair.... but I'm not a hair chemistry expert by a long shot... but I think you'll need to make sure you have other things in your new conditioner mix that will also help keep your hair healthy.

The baking soda is working for you, huh? Very interesting. I've always been very afraid to try something like that on my hair. Do you do the deep treatment afterward because the BS leaves you hair dry and tangly? How long have you been using the shampoo bars? And how does your hair feel with that? I'm glad you close the cuticle afterward, because that can be really rough on your hair otherwise.



My hair has never been dyed (well except for green with food coloring the last day of seventh grade at my extremely conservative school:D). My hair is naturally curly. The only problems I really have with it are the ends get stuck together in some areas. I guess velcroey? I would also like it to be shinier. Really the only part of my hair that gives me fits is a triangle shaped area the back. I don't if I'm not reaching it all of the way with oil and stuff or it is just different than the rest of my hair. It was the first part of my hair to actually go curly in my twenties. I was mortified when I first saw a picture of my hair from the rear-straight hair with a triangle of curly hair.:rolleyes:

Do you know what's causing the velcro-y ends? Do you use heat and things on your hair? Normally you hear about the velcro ends when someone has dyed their hair, so it seems strange you have that problem.

Celeritas: Any suggestions on what product to put in a conditioner to help with velcro like ends?




My whole reason for wanting to switch was to eliminate using plastic bottles. Knowing that the bottles are at least seventy percent water really bothers me, so I am really working towards that. I can't say my products were not working, but now I know there are so many better things to try. Things that can be customized. Like I live in a very dry climate, so I probably should stay away from glycerine. I also can't be around any scents and perfumes because I am extremely allergic. So I guess my goals are environmental, chemical avoidance, scent free, detangle, condition, shine, split ends and reach waste length hair.

I've never yet figured out which ingredient in a conditioner would cause the lovely shine I see on some women's hair. I know they have serums that do that, but those just weigh down my hair.




LHC is definitely overwhelming with so many things to try in so short a time. I think I have a years' worth of experiments to try already. I have several other things to try in the conditioner I'm making. They just got here yesterday.
aloe powder
honey powder (for my daughter's blond hair)
collagen
hydrolyzed wheat protein.
buttermilk powder

Collagen, I thought, could act like a humectant? So if you're being careful with the glycerin, that might be another thing to be careful of in your dry climate.

And, I'm not sure if any of the above listed ingredients is going to add the conditioning you wanted. I think honey adds moisture, but again, I wonder if that is still true in a dry climate? :shrug: Sorry, just not sure on that one. I just want to make sure you get stuff in your mix that will work for making your hair feel more healthy in the long run. :)




It is just fun to be able to play around and great to get everyone's advice and ideas. One thing for sure, I think someone needs to hide my credit card. I had no idea so many cool things existed. Aren't you the one talking about that cool dress on Ebay?:o


No, I wasn't talking about an Ebay dress, but I know what you mean about hide my credit card. Ever since I've been introduced to trying to make my own conditioner, it's everything I can do to stop at just the ingredients I need to get started with. I see all the cool stuff and see Swift's recipes and think, "Oh! I could make this and I could make that and and and!" :rollin: But it's all good! And fun to experiment with. :)

[celeritas]

I have no idea why catnip would work for hair - there is nothing in it that makes it good or bad for our hair, although the tannins might help with an oily scalp because they are astringent (so oily haired girls will love it; dry or normal hair will see too much oil stripped out, leaving it feeling more dry). I have seen references that it might "promote healthy hair growth" but I can't find a definition of what this means or any evidence to support the statement. Catnip is one of those ingredients listed as being a huge potential allergen, so you might want to check how you react to it before buying a ton to use as part of your hair care regimen.

Velcro-y ends are generally a sign the hair isn't conditioned. When our hair is well conditioned, the cuticle lays flat and your hair strands will glide over each other instead of catching. The scales of the cuticle might be slightly lifted up, which can lead to them hooking on to each other. If we've stripped away the layer of fatty acids on our hair, our hair will absorb more water - which leads to a swelling of the hair, which increases friction - or our hair fails to glide nicely over other hairs, which leads to an increase in friction. If you do enough damage to your hair, you can get incredibly tangled hair that will eventually turn into a giant dreadlock that must be cut out (this is one scary condition!)

Once this fatty acid layer on our hair is gone, it's gone. And that means huge split ends and even serious breakage along the hair strand where it's weak. You can supplement it with conditioning ingredients and oils to try to keep it in better condition, but it's better to not strip away the fatty layer in the first place. (Using a fatty cationic compound will do double duty here.)

Using an alkaline ingredient like baking soda can lead to a ton of damage in a short period of time. Your hair likes slightly acidic pH ingredients - pH 6.0 is generally what we want - and baking soda is up to pH 10.3. If you are using an alkaline, cold process shampoo bar on your hair and following it up with an alkaline rinse, you could be doing serious serious damage to your hair. In the short term you'll see tangles and low to no-shine; in the long term, you're stripping away the fatty acid layer and your cuticles will lift up, letting many things into the cortex, including water, which leads to more tangles and more damage. Citric acid is too acidic for all but the most virgin of hair. It can strip away the oily protective layer on your hair, and when that's gone you're in trouble.

You can't avoid chemicals - by definition water, my dog, and the air are chemicals - but you can make choices about the ingredients you want to use in your hair care products. I just fear you're using a ton of ingredients that won't help your hair (at best) or will damage it (at worst).

I admit I'm really confused by some of the posts I see on this forum (I don't mean to offend, but I'm sure I will). I know there's a desire to be more natural with our products, but if that means products that create bad hair days or damage your hair, why do you continue to use them? Why wouldn't you use the ingredients we know will leave our hair in good condition?

Take the conditioner recipe linked above using water, guar gum, and xanthan gum. There is absolutely nothing conditioning in this recipe, and using it is on par with not conditioning your hair at all. You may have good results with it over the short term because the polysaccharides do create a film on your hair that can retain moisture and offer some slip, but not conditioning can lead to damage in the long term. If you're not getting the results you want - as demonstrated by the tangles and lack of shine - why would you continue to use it? Our hair doesn't take time to adjust to a new product - the result you get the first time or second time is likely to be the result you get all the time with a product - so continuing to use something that isn't making your hair feel healthy seems illogical to me.

I am sure my last comments have offended, and this was not my intention. I'm just having trouble reconciling the idea of wanting long, healthy hair and the use of ingredients and/or products that will make that very difficult.

[K_Angel]

I have no idea why catnip would work for hair - there is nothing in it that makes it good or bad for our hair, although the tannins might help with an oily scalp because they are astringent (so oily haired girls will love it; dry or normal hair will see too much oil stripped out, leaving it feeling more dry). I have seen references that it might "promote healthy hair growth" but I can't find a definition of what this means or any evidence to support the statement. Catnip is one of those ingredients listed as being a huge potential allergen, so you might want to check how you react to it before buying a ton to use as part of your hair care regimen.

Velcro-y ends are generally a sign the hair isn't conditioned. When our hair is well conditioned, the cuticle lays flat and your hair strands will glide over each other instead of catching. The scales of the cuticle might be slightly lifted up, which can lead to them hooking on to each other. If we've stripped away the layer of fatty acids on our hair, our hair will absorb more water - which leads to a swelling of the hair, which increases friction - or our hair fails to glide nicely over other hairs, which leads to an increase in friction. If you do enough damage to your hair, you can get incredibly tangled hair that will eventually turn into a giant dreadlock that must be cut out (this is one scary condition!)

Once this fatty acid layer on our hair is gone, it's gone. And that means huge split ends and even serious breakage along the hair strand where it's weak. You can supplement it with conditioning ingredients and oils to try to keep it in better condition, but it's better to not strip away the fatty layer in the first place. (Using a fatty cationic compound will do double duty here.)

Using an alkaline ingredient like baking soda can lead to a ton of damage in a short period of time. Your hair likes slightly acidic pH ingredients - pH 6.0 is generally what we want - and baking soda is up to pH 10.3. If you are using an alkaline, cold process shampoo bar on your hair and following it up with an alkaline rinse, you could be doing serious serious damage to your hair. In the short term you'll see tangles and low to no-shine; in the long term, you're stripping away the fatty acid layer and your cuticles will lift up, letting many things into the cortex, including water, which leads to more tangles and more damage. Citric acid is too acidic for all but the most virgin of hair. It can strip away the oily protective layer on your hair, and when that's gone you're in trouble.

You can't avoid chemicals - by definition water, my dog, and the air are chemicals - but you can make choices about the ingredients you want to use in your hair care products. I just fear you're using a ton of ingredients that won't help your hair (at best) or will damage it (at worst).

I admit I'm really confused by some of the posts I see on this forum (I don't mean to offend, but I'm sure I will). I know there's a desire to be more natural with our products, but if that means products that create bad hair days or damage your hair, why do you continue to use them? Why wouldn't you use the ingredients we know will leave our hair in good condition?

Take the conditioner recipe linked above using water, guar gum, and xanthan gum. There is absolutely nothing conditioning in this recipe, and using it is on par with not conditioning your hair at all. You may have good results with it over the short term because the polysaccharides do create a film on your hair that can retain moisture and offer some slip, but not conditioning can lead to damage in the long term. If you're not getting the results you want - as demonstrated by the tangles and lack of shine - why would you continue to use it? Our hair doesn't take time to adjust to a new product - the result you get the first time or second time is likely to be the result you get all the time with a product - so continuing to use something that isn't making your hair feel healthy seems illogical to me.

I am sure my last comments have offended, and this was not my intention. I'm just having trouble reconciling the idea of wanting long, healthy hair and the use of ingredients and/or products that will make that very difficult.
Hi Celeritas! Your words may seem a bit hard, but I see your heartfelt concern over the health and well being of our hair. And I appreciate your words of warning. :blossom:

I'm not quite understanding the fatty acid thing about our hair..... and how other ingredients work with it. I'm very interested in starting a new thread on the subject of hair and how ingredients effect it. Would it be ok, if I started one and we could talk about it there??? I'd like others to be able to see it, as I'm sure they'd be interested. And I think it will get lost in this thread... but only if you're interested in doing that?

Also, I think I'm confused a bit by the word "condition" your hair. I guess because there are so many things that claim to be conditioners... but are they?

Is conditioning our hair a specific action, as opposed to moisturizing it and etc?

Or is conditioning hair keeping that fatty acid thing? Or?

Sorry to be so obtuse, but I'm not quite catching on to that part of it.

[celeritas]

Hi Angel. I'm happy to offer what help I can, but I'm not sure how much time I have to duplicate what I'm writing on my blog right now and share it here. (Let me know if you want me to copy this elsewhere...I'm not that familiar with the sections of this forum yet...)

Conditioning your hair means using a positively charged, lipid based cationic compound (like Incroquat BTMS-50 or cetrimonium bromide) that will adsorb to your hair and stay there to offer an increase in lubrication, decrease in friction, and decrease in combing forces. It only takes place on the outside layer of our hair, and it is about the opposing electrical forces (your hair is negatively charged, the conditioner positively charged). Conditioners will not come off your hair when you add water - you need to use a shampoo or soap or something that will remove them. So if you get caught in the rain, your hair is still conditioned.

These cationic compounds also moisturize, that is to say it helps your hair retain water or increase water retention in your hair. You can use some ingredients, like the oils or film formers, to form a layer over the hair strand to keep water in. Or you can use something like glycerin to attract water from the atmosphere to your hair. Or you can use something like low molecular weight silk to penetrate the hair strand and add or draw water inside. If you are caught in the rain, these ingredients can wash right off. Some people can't handle the extra moisture in their hair - the cortex swells and increases the diameter of the hair and this can lead to increased friction, which we know can lead to damage - but everyone can handle conditioning.

So a conditioner can moisturize, but a moisturizer can't condition.

If we take a look at the guar, xanthan, and water combination, we can see it will form a film over our hair strand that can prevent water from escaping, which will make it feel more moisturized. If you are using oils or butters, they will form a film over your hair strand and increase water retention, but they won't add extra water if you have little to start with. If you're using various herbal concoctions or vinegars on your hair, you may be increasing the moisturizing, so your hair might increase the moisturization or retain the moisture it has, but you are not conditioning it.

[Norai]

<3 Swift, she knows her stuff.

If you want to avoid bottles/plastic etc, try her solid conditioner bar recipe on her blog. :)

[K_Angel]

Hi Angel. I'm happy to offer what help I can, but I'm not sure how much time I have to duplicate what I'm writing on my blog right now and share it here. (Let me know if you want me to copy this elsewhere...I'm not that familiar with the sections of this forum yet...)

I'm so excited on your blog about the topic of hair that you are starting! :)


Conditioning your hair means using a positively charged, lipid based cationic compound (like Incroquat BTMS-50 or cetrimonium bromide) that will adsorb to your hair and stay there to offer an increase in lubrication, decrease in friction, and decrease in combing forces. It only takes place on the outside layer of our hair, and it is about the opposing electrical forces (your hair is negatively charged, the conditioner positively charged). Conditioners will not come off your hair when you add water - you need to use a shampoo or soap or something that will remove them. So if you get caught in the rain, your hair is still conditioned.

Cool explanation, thanks!!! :flower:

[K_Angel]

<3 Swift, she knows her stuff.

If you want to avoid bottles/plastic etc, try her solid conditioner bar recipe on her blog. :)
I can attest to the fact that those conditioner bars work wonderfully!!!!! :) They also dry quickly, which surprised me. They don't get mushy like regular soap does. And they don't shrink quickly either! I've been very impressed! :)

I'm still going to try the wet version too, but since I tore a ligament in my ankle, I can't stand over the stove. :(

But for traveling, I would really think the conditioner bar would be handy. :blossom:

[pinchbeck]

I have no idea why catnip would work for hair - there is nothing in it that makes it good or bad for our hair, although the tannins might help with an oily scalp because they are astringent (so oily haired girls will love it; dry or normal hair will see too much oil stripped out, leaving it feeling more dry). I have seen references that it might "promote healthy hair growth" but I can't find a definition of what this means or any evidence to support the statement. Catnip is one of those ingredients listed as being a huge potential allergen, so you might want to check how you react to it before buying a ton to use as part of your hair care regimen.

Velcro-y ends are generally a sign the hair isn't conditioned. When our hair is well conditioned, the cuticle lays flat and your hair strands will glide over each other instead of catching. The scales of the cuticle might be slightly lifted up, which can lead to them hooking on to each other. If we've stripped away the layer of fatty acids on our hair, our hair will absorb more water - which leads to a swelling of the hair, which increases friction - or our hair fails to glide nicely over other hairs, which leads to an increase in friction. If you do enough damage to your hair, you can get incredibly tangled hair that will eventually turn into a giant dreadlock that must be cut out (this is one scary condition!)

Once this fatty acid layer on our hair is gone, it's gone. And that means huge split ends and even serious breakage along the hair strand where it's weak. You can supplement it with conditioning ingredients and oils to try to keep it in better condition, but it's better to not strip away the fatty layer in the first place. (Using a fatty cationic compound will do double duty here.)

Using an alkaline ingredient like baking soda can lead to a ton of damage in a short period of time. Your hair likes slightly acidic pH ingredients - pH 6.0 is generally what we want - and baking soda is up to pH 10.3. If you are using an alkaline, cold process shampoo bar on your hair and following it up with an alkaline rinse, you could be doing serious serious damage to your hair. In the short term you'll see tangles and low to no-shine; in the long term, you're stripping away the fatty acid layer and your cuticles will lift up, letting many things into the cortex, including water, which leads to more tangles and more damage. Citric acid is too acidic for all but the most virgin of hair. It can strip away the oily protective layer on your hair, and when that's gone you're in trouble.

You can't avoid chemicals - by definition water, my dog, and the air are chemicals - but you can make choices about the ingredients you want to use in your hair care products. I just fear you're using a ton of ingredients that won't help your hair (at best) or will damage it (at worst).

I admit I'm really confused by some of the posts I see on this forum (I don't mean to offend, but I'm sure I will). I know there's a desire to be more natural with our products, but if that means products that create bad hair days or damage your hair, why do you continue to use them? Why wouldn't you use the ingredients we know will leave our hair in good condition?

Take the conditioner recipe linked above using water, guar gum, and xanthan gum. There is absolutely nothing conditioning in this recipe, and using it is on par with not conditioning your hair at all. You may have good results with it over the short term because the polysaccharides do create a film on your hair that can retain moisture and offer some slip, but not conditioning can lead to damage in the long term. If you're not getting the results you want - as demonstrated by the tangles and lack of shine - why would you continue to use it? Our hair doesn't take time to adjust to a new product - the result you get the first time or second time is likely to be the result you get all the time with a product - so continuing to use something that isn't making your hair feel healthy seems illogical to me.

I am sure my last comments have offended, and this was not my intention. I'm just having trouble reconciling the idea of wanting long, healthy hair and the use of ingredients and/or products that will make that very difficult.I am one of TLHC's black sheep and would like to say I enjoyed reading this post. Very informative and thought provoking.

If oil can help smooth out our hair shaft, why isn't it helping my hair? My long hair journey is always interrupted by cutting the ends off (2" or more!) my hair to enable me to get a comb through it. I am so frustrated and upset.

My hair is virgin. I have a lot of it but each strand is thin and it is multi-textured. Even after I have detangled it my hair will re-tangle right away. In your opinion what can I to avoid this constant battle? This battle with my hair continually adds damage to it even though my hair is treated gently.

I smooth my hair with jojoba or babassu oil daily and pre oil with coconut oil. Please help me...:puppy:

[pinchbeck]

What type of beer do you suggest using? What work best on hair?I watched Dr. Oz this week and it was stated that beer destroys the biotin in our hair! That was a very useful piece of information.:)

[ktani]

I have no idea why catnip would work for hair - there is nothing in it that makes it good or bad for our hair, although the tannins might help with an oily scalp because they are astringent (so oily haired girls will love it; dry or normal hair will see too much oil stripped out, leaving it feeling more dry). I have seen references that it might "promote healthy hair growth" but I can't find a definition of what this means or any evidence to support the statement. Catnip is one of those ingredients listed as being a huge potential allergen, so you might want to check how you react to it before buying a ton to use as part of your hair care regimen.

Velcro-y ends are generally a sign the hair isn't conditioned. .

Catnip contains a number of constituents that are good for hair like lauric acid, pantothenic acid and protein as well as oils. It has saved my hair and balanced it beautifully, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=118. Others have reported liking it as well, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=476.

From my experience, velcro-y ends can be from a number of causes including conventional product build-up and from catnip use, too strong a dilution that did not strip or dry my hair but was too intense. Washing with shampoo and an adjusted dilution and my ends were fine again.

I have read your posts with interest. I do not agree with everything you write but I find none of your posts offensive. You are polite and well intentioned and that comes through in your style and wording.

I find this article a good way of explaining why it can be difficult to choose just one of many constituents that work well in a natural product like catnip, http://www.pharmpress.com/shop/samples/Eval_Herb_Med_Prod_sample.pdf

[K_Angel]

Thanks Ktani for the catnip explanation! :)

[ktani]

Thanks Ktani for the catnip explanation! :)

You are most welcome!

[K_Angel]

I watched Dr. Oz this week and it was stated that beer destroys the biotin in our hair! That was a very useful piece of information.:)
:rollin: Well, I'm glad I've always hated the smell of beer, so I never dumped it on my head!

Although, frankly, most beer, except all the fancy micro brewery ones, probably have more chemicals in them than most hair things do! :laugh:

[celeritas]

Catnip contains a number of constituents that are good for hair like lauric acid, pantothenic acid and protein as well as oils. It has saved my hair and balanced it beautifully, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=118. Others have reported liking it as well, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=476.

From my experience, velcro-y ends can be from a number of causes including conventional product build-up and from catnip use, too strong a dilution that did not strip or dry my hair but was too intense. Washing with shampoo and an adjusted dilution and my ends were fine again.

I have read your posts with interest. I do not agree with everything you write but I find none of your posts offensive. You are polite and well intentioned and that comes through in your style and wording.

I find this article a good way of explaining why it can be difficult to choose just one of many constituents that work well in a natural product like catnip, http://www.pharmpress.com/shop/samples/Eval_Herb_Med_Prod_sample.pdf
I read the article you posted about herbal constituents, and this is one of the problems in saying something like "the polyphenols in apples are great - here's a pill containing them" because botanicals work in harmony with all the vitamins, minerals, polyphenols, polysaccharides, fibre, and so on, so trying to remove one piece of it and claim that's the thing that works best is so difficult! (Joe Schwarcz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_A._Schwarcz) writes a lot about this in his fabulous chemistry books! Wonderfully written and easy to understand!) This doesn't mean we can't isolate the ingredients that might be good for a specific purpose, just that it might not work when taken out of the botanical source.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that catnip may contain things good for our hair and scalp (like tannins) and some might be bad (like allergens), but it isn't a conditioner. By definition a conditioning agent must be positively charged to adsorb to our hair strand, and catnip isn't positively charged. It may contain some ingredients that are good for our hair (minerals, vitamins, polyphenols) but this doesn't mean it is a conditioner or it is conditioning. It may offer moisturizing and other benefits, but it isn't a conditioning agent.

Lauric acid is a fatty acid found in coconut oil, and studies have shown it is fantastic for our hair. According to this study I found (http://www.journalofnaturalproducts.com/Volume2/12_Res_paper-11.pdf), catnip leaves contain this fatty acid (about 5.84% of the total fatty acids). Lauric acid is an oil soluble constituent of catnip, so a tea or infusion is unlikely to contain much of it.

If you feel catnip works for your hair, I can't contradict your experiences, although I am curious what you've found in your research that makes catnip conditioning or helps with split ends. (I did try to read the thread you sent me but it's a little long...)

Velcro-y ends of your hair and tangling can be one-off experiences (getting caught in the wind!), but for the most part it indicates our hair is damaged. By definition, long hair equals damaged ends, even if you've been impeccable in your hair care regimen (years of brushing, combing, sleeping on it, twisting it around your finger, getting it caught in doors, and so on will help remove some of the fatty acid layer and the cuticle will start to erode). My only suggestion is to use a really good conditioning agent that will help with the tangles.

[celeritas]

I am one of TLHC's black sheep and would like to say I enjoyed reading this post. Very informative and thought provoking.

If oil can help smooth out our hair shaft, why isn't it helping my hair? My long hair journey is always interrupted by cutting the ends off (2" or more!) my hair to enable me to get a comb through it. I am so frustrated and upset.

My hair is virgin. I have a lot of it but each strand is thin and it is multi-textured. Even after I have detangled it my hair will re-tangle right away. In your opinion what can I to avoid this constant battle? This battle with my hair continually adds damage to it even though my hair is treated gently.

I smooth my hair with jojoba or babassu oil daily and pre oil with coconut oil. Please help me...:puppy:
What do you mean by it isn't helping your hair? What are you hoping to achieve by using oils in your hair? Are you using a conditioner on your hair? Why have you chosen jojoba and/or babassu? (I personally love babassu for my skin - it melts on skin contact and feels incredible!) Both of these oils are considered dry or astringent oils. I know coconut oil has been proven to be awesome for our hair, but not for every hair type.

Virgin hair doesn't equal undamaged hair. If you're fighting with tangled ends - especially when wet - you are pulling your hair when combing and creating serious friction damage, which can really trash our cuticle scales. If you're exposing your hair to sunlight - which we all do every day - then you'll see a lessening of the fatty acid layer on your hair - especially at the ends - which increases friction, which can increase tangles.

Personally, I'd use a conditioner with something like cetrimonium bromide and behentrimonium chloride or methosulfate, and include a conditioning agent that improves softness and anti-static properties (like stearalkonium chloride, found in Incroquat CR if you're making your own) and a detangling conditioning agent like cetrimonium chloride (2% can make all the difference!). If you're not using conditioner, I'd suggest using it because they are massively awesome at detangling our hair. If you are using conditioner, I'd look at conditioners containing those ingredients to reduce the friction in your hair and increase the detangling.

If you aren't using a conditioner, please consider doing so. Try a little experiment - stop oiling your hair for four washes, and use a conditioner containing at behetrimonium methosulfate or chloride and cetrimonium chloride for those four washes. If my suspicions are right, you will find your ends are less tangled. (I've chosen four washes because that's about a week's worth of washing. If you're washing your hair every day, this might also be the culprit!)

When I say cetrimonium chloride at 2% makes a huge difference, I mean it. I used to have my husband brush my hair because it was so tangled. I make my own now with 2% cetrimonium chloride, and I can pull a brush straight through my hair after washing (it's below my waist, and I know the ends are trashed!) I might get the odd tangle if I've had it up in a ponytail for a while or if I've slept on it funny, but that's an uncommon occurrence now!

[ktani]

I read the article you posted about herbal constituents, and this is one of the problems in saying something like "the polyphenols in apples are great - here's a pill containing them" because botanicals work in harmony with all the vitamins, minerals, polyphenols, polysaccharides, fibre, and so on, so trying to remove one piece of it and claim that's the thing that works best is so difficult! (Joe Schwarcz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_A._Schwarcz) writes a lot about this in his fabulous chemistry books! Wonderfully written and easy to understand!) This doesn't mean we can't isolate the ingredients that might be good for a specific purpose, just that it might not work when taken out of the botanical source.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that catnip may contain things good for our hair and scalp (like tannins) and some might be bad (like allergens), but it isn't a conditioner. By definition a conditioning agent must be positively charged to adsorb to our hair strand, and catnip isn't positively charged. It may contain some ingredients that are good for our hair (minerals, vitamins, polyphenols) but this doesn't mean it is a conditioner or it is conditioning. It may offer moisturizing and other benefits, but it isn't a conditioning agent.

Lauric acid is a fatty acid found in coconut oil, and studies have shown it is fantastic for our hair. According to this study I found (http://www.journalofnaturalproducts.com/Volume2/12_Res_paper-11.pdf), catnip leaves contain this fatty acid (about 5.84&#37; of the total fatty acids). Lauric acid is an oil soluble constituent of catnip, so a tea or infusion is unlikely to contain much of it.

If you feel catnip works for your hair, I can't contradict your experiences, although I am curious what you've found in your research that makes catnip conditioning or helps with split ends. (I did try to read the thread you sent me but it's a little long...)

Velcro-y ends of your hair and tangling can be one-off experiences (getting caught in the wind!), but for the most part it indicates our hair is damaged. By definition, long hair equals damaged ends, even if you've been impeccable in your hair care regimen (years of brushing, combing, sleeping on it, twisting it around your finger, getting it caught in doors, and so on will help remove some of the fatty acid layer and the cuticle will start to erode). My only suggestion is to use a really good conditioning agent that will help with the tangles.

I thank you for the research article but it is about a different species of catnip, not Nepeta cataria, or common catnip. Each species has differences in their constituents and percentages.

Of course catnip is not a conditioner as defined by conventional methods for conventional conditioning ingredients. That does not and has not meant for me and others that it cannot replace conventional conditioners effectively.

I did not find any research that states catnip prevents split ends. It was an umexpected side effect of having experimented with catnip myself. I was asked about it and posted the results and recipe here and it has been reported to work effectively for others too.

I search and destroy my ends and hair further up the hair shaft (s&d) and have been doing that for years. I have no split ends from having used and still using catnip with my method and and others have had similar results.

I have extensively researched catnip and both the leaves of Nepeta cataria and the buds contain oils, both fixed and volatile. Regardless of what one reads about a conventional ingredient or a natural plant, the "proof is in the pudding" as to how well something works for someone and catnip works for me. I know from my experience that it can and has prevented split ends, reduced my breakage to an all time minimum, eliminated tangles and it soothes my scalp and stains my grey/white hair. It is also incredible on my skin.