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amaiaisabella
April 23rd, 2008, 06:31 PM
When I started following LHC, I gave up all the usual bad things I was doing to my hair: blowdrying, straightening, etc. I got a nice comb and brush and was more careful with detangling my hair. Still, my hair was dry and I decided to move from W&C to CO. I've been CO for a bit over a month and while my hair is way more moisturized, I'm thinking maybe it's TOO moisturized.

Since I colored my hair 3 weeks ago, I like that CO doesn't fade the color. My hair has a tendency to only fade the color at the top and leave the ends dark. I've shampooed twice since I colored and I saw fading :(

Except... CO is not getting my hair really nice anymore. It's never full, and the top looks greasy. My ends are still dry, and I oil them, but they soak the oil right up. I know I need to try some diluted shampoo again, but I'm afraid of fading the color. Both times I shampooed before, I used Garnier Fructis for colored hair, and I put maybe a bit bigger than dime-sized shampoo with tons of water and mixed it. Still, I saw fading.

My hair isn't long enough to do put it up all the time, so I'm stuck with it down. What can I do to get it clean but not fade the color?? I really don't want to have to color again and I love the color as it is now.

Help!!

andrea1982
April 23rd, 2008, 06:35 PM
Maybe you could try diluting the shampoo? There's a beauty brains article that also suggests that even just water is a main culprit for fading, so maybe you could try stretching out washings a bit to compensate for using shampoo.

n3m3sis42
April 23rd, 2008, 06:38 PM
What kind of shampoo were you using before you switched to CO? Did it have detergents like sodium laureth sulfate?

I'm not an expert on CO by any means, but I did do no-poo for about a year. With no-poo, it seemed to be common for people who had used shampoos with detergents (SLS and ALS and that type of thing) to go through a "detox period". My understanding was that the shampoos had been stripping the natural oils and causing the scalp to overproduce oil to compensate for that, and so the detox period was the time it took for the scalp to re-adjust its oil production. For me, the detox period didn't seem to start until about 4-6 months after I quit using shampoo.

I have also heard that if you are washing your hair too often it can strip the oils and cause overproduction of oil, and that greasy roots and dry ends can be a sign of that.

Again, I'm not really an expert so feel free to ignore me. :)

amaiaisabella
April 23rd, 2008, 06:55 PM
andrea1982, I was diluting the shampoo. I posted that I was using Garnier Fructis and diluting a dime size of it to a lot of water.

n3m3sis42, I didn't pay attention to ingredients before :( I'm sure it has very bad chemicals, I was just relying on whatever I got at the drugstore. I wash my hair every 3 days as it is very fine and shows oil easily. And it is too short to stay up so I can't put it up to hide the oil :(

n3m3sis42
April 23rd, 2008, 07:06 PM
If it is a detox from detergents in your old shampoo, then it should eventually pass (for me, it took 2 or 3 weeks from the time I noticed the problem). But since I don't know a lot about CO, I'm not really sure how to tell if there are other issues besides a detox. Maybe there are others reading this thread who went from detergent-y shampoos to CO and had a detox period and can advise?

Washing every 3 days doesn't sound excessive to me. I mean, I know it depends on hair type, but I have fine-ish, thinnish hair and I find that twice a week works best for me. So I'm guessing washing too much is not your problem.

amaiaisabella
April 23rd, 2008, 07:12 PM
Thanks for the reassurance :) I know I leave it in long enough to clean (usually 15-20 minutes) so it's not like I'm rinsing immediately and leaving residue behind.

I hate to give up CO but until I can get my hair long enough to stay up completely all day it has to stay down, and look good, darn it! :) I am thinking of doing CWC but like I said, I'm afraid of using a shampoo that's going to fade me. I just have to find the gentlest shampoo possible.

Anje
April 23rd, 2008, 08:15 PM
Too-moisturized hair (as in, it requires more protein) gets stretchy and very strange. People seem to describe it as being mushy like wet paper... I think your problem is not that you're over-moisturized but that the CO washing you've been doing isn't cleaning very well.

What are you using for CO? Lighter conditioners are often better for CO washing than more moisturizing ones, and many people find the runny texture spreads well.

Are you applying it to wet or dry hair? Wet or dry hair seems to be a personal preference (and we'll see how people weigh in on it), but I suspect applying to dry hair would get more oils out.

How long do you leave it in? Most people find they get more cleansing when they leave conditioner in longer, on the order of 15 to 30 minutes (apply to hair, put on shower cap, go clean up the kitchen or something, then shower).

How much do you use? I get by with a good handful for my scalp and another for my length, but I don't have much grease and only need to leave it in for 5 minutes, too. At your length, I'd say use a good two handfuls so your hair is really slimed up, and after a few weeks adjust from there.

And, are you really really rinsing it all out? Unless you plan on leaving some of the conditioner in as a leave-in, and then I'd recommend applying more after you get the first dose rinsed out.

If all else fails, you could try C-COW-C washing. Apply conditioner to the length (protection), apply a mixture of conditioner and shampoo to the scalp and scrub. Rinse, then condition again.

amaiaisabella
April 23rd, 2008, 08:34 PM
I hadn't considered that my conditioner is too moisturizing. I was using V05 but that left my hair way too greasy. I moved to Kiss my Face's Whenever conditioner, which was working good but started to fade the color. I mixed it with Redken's color conditioner, and now my hair is back to the grease.

I put it on wet hair, but hadn't considered putting it on dry hair to "deep clean". I will definitely try that tomorrow. I'd rather not rush out and get some new things yet.

lookingglass
April 23rd, 2008, 09:33 PM
There is nothing wrong with shampooing if you feel like it! Maybe you should try one of Aubry Organics shampoos or something else that is sulfate free and then go back to the CO.

amaiaisabella
April 23rd, 2008, 09:41 PM
Are there any drugstore shampoos that are sulfate-free?

OhioLisa
April 23rd, 2008, 10:12 PM
Think about it. You say your hair went "back to the grease" when you went with the Redken. Coincidence? Doubtful. I looked up one of Redken's Color Extend conditioners and found it has quite a bit of cones. Cones make my hair look greasy WAY too soon as well. You might need to ditch the cones.

Riot Crrl
April 23rd, 2008, 10:21 PM
Overconditioning is way way possible. I never would have believed it a year ago, but I've done it now, lol.

I know the signs on curly hair, but I don't really know what to look for so much on straight hair. I would guess that the main ones that would translate are: if you have frizz, it would get worse. Your hair may also look dry to look at it, but to feel it, it doesn't feel that way.

The good news is that if you only have overconditioning, vinegar rinse'll fix it in a hurry. It shouldn't disturb color either, may even make it more color fast.

amaiaisabella
April 23rd, 2008, 10:38 PM
OhioLisa, I didn't even think about that. I think I might have to dump the bottle then, because the conditioner is all mixed together. On the plus side, I wanted to try Suave's Coconut conditioner :)

RiotCrrl, how do I do a vinegar rinse? How often would I have to do that? I am not fond of the smell, but I remember reading somewhere on here that you heavily dilute it with water. But would that really make a difference if my hair is so greasy?

Riot Crrl
April 23rd, 2008, 10:49 PM
It would fix the overconditioning, but probably not clarify much natural sebum out of your hair.

(After washing however I am going to wash) I use a splash (about one tablespoon, two tops) in a pint of lukewarm water, pour it on, let it sit on there for a minute, then rinse and condition again. Yep, it still cleared up overconditioning issues even though I conditioned again right away. On your hair type that might not be necessary though, I'm not sure. I'm curly and peroxided so my conditioning amount may be ridiculous to those with straight healthy hair.

I also just use cheapo white vinegar. A lot of people use apple cider vinegar, but the only reason I have ever really found out for that is that people just have less objection to the smell than they do to white. Since I rinse mine out after a minute, the smell is not a big deal to me.

amaiaisabella
April 23rd, 2008, 10:52 PM
I'll see if we have vinegar around the house :)

So I should CO, then do the rinse?

I swear, I'll hug you if this fixes it! :)

Riot Crrl
April 23rd, 2008, 11:01 PM
If you want to CO anyways, CO. If not, just get it wet and then do it. It won't do much for natural root dirtiness, so if you have that CO or wash in some other form. In my experience anyway.

amaiaisabella
April 23rd, 2008, 11:06 PM
I'll try tomorrow and report back :)

And if it helps my color stay... wahoo!

birdiefu
April 23rd, 2008, 11:45 PM
I know you said you are leaving your CO on a while to help it break up the dirt and oils. But I just want to make sure you are 'sudsing' it up with some additional water before rinsing out, too. When I was COing, that was the key step in getting it to work well. By adding some water and massaging around the scalp (and I repeated again before rinsing), it helps emulsify any oils together with the condish so it can then rinse that away.

Katze
April 24th, 2008, 12:01 AM
I have to agree with Anje - it sounds like your hair isn't getting clean.

Personally, I tried "no 'poo" - WO, WO with baking soda and vinegar, and CO - and after about four months my hair was just icky...dull, tangly, dry ends, greasy scalp. So I went back to (sulfate) shampoos and my hair is MUCH happier. I also use 'cones, which make my hair soft, smooth, and make it hang better.

While CO might work for some people, my experience is that for fine hair and greasy scalp it is probably not the best.

jesamyn
April 24th, 2008, 12:15 AM
I've tried CO-only too and found that my hair doesn't like it as a regular routine. While avoiding harsh shampoos is always a great idea, some hair just doesn't care for no-poo, and that's fine. If the same thing worked for everyone, we wouldn't have nearly as many posts on these boards. ;)

I second, third, or fourth the suggestion of using a vinegar rinse to clear things up as a start. Like Riot Crrl, I've happily used white vinegar as well as ACV, and I didn't notice a difference on my hair at the same dilution. I don't have any other suggestions, but wanted to offer encouragement. :)

aisling
April 24th, 2008, 01:50 AM
Think about it. You say your hair went "back to the grease" when you went with the Redken. Coincidence? Doubtful. I looked up one of Redken's Color Extend conditioners and found it has quite a bit of cones. Cones make my hair look greasy WAY too soon as well. You might need to ditch the cones.

I think OhioLisa found the culprit, CO:ing with a heavy conditioner heavy on the cones wouldn't make my hair clean either. With CO:ing the main things are to find the right conditioner, to leave it on long enough and to rinse very well. Vinegar rinse or not couldn't matter less for my hair, it's much more important to use the right conditioner and make sure it's well rinsed.

amaiaisabella
April 24th, 2008, 10:09 AM
I'm going to dump the KMF mixture and pull out the bottle of V05 I originally started with.

To answer an earlier poster's question, yes I do lather before rinsing. Maybe I wasn't doing it enough?

I'm going to do the CO on dry hair to see if it sinks in better, then rinse with the vinegar.

amaiaisabella
April 24th, 2008, 11:16 AM
I did it, but my hair is still wet *crosses fingers*

amaiaisabella
April 24th, 2008, 11:31 AM
My roots definitely feel "cleaner" but I'm really hoping it didn't strip the color.... :(

LifeisAdventure
May 6th, 2008, 12:42 AM
Ok, so I have recently (within the last few days) begun to believe that my hair might be too moisturized and robbed of protein, but could someone PLEASE describe the feel and look of protein-deficient hair more for me? I've read "the" article on balancing protein vs. moisture but still can't tell for sure.

What's weirding me out is that I only have that "mushy" feeling and dull, warped look at the very tips of my TBL hair when I usually have overly dry hair. The roots and the length of my hair all feel normal, look shiny, and are my usual straight/wavy texture. I do vinegar rinses at least twice a month but this change has popped up since my last ACVR. I S&C every 3-4 days, I do use cones, and I have been applying clear aloe to my length and tips for about the last month after washings to combat weather. I wear my hair up almost always and sleep with it in a high bun... I'm thinking if this isn't protein-deficiency then maybe it's simply multiple kinks and dents from putting it up night after night? My hair holds shape VERY well, which is why I don't braid for sleeping. Could my tips just be retaining many, layered, misplaced shapings which make them look and feel "mushy"?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you all!

ETA: amaiaisabella, how did everything work out for you?

Riot Crrl
May 6th, 2008, 12:58 AM
LifeisAdventure, maybe only your ends are out of balance. You can just protein DT your ends. Or even try it on only a bit of the ends first, to see if it's a good result. Remember to follow with moisture before deciding.

amaiaisabella
May 6th, 2008, 08:57 AM
LifeisAdventure, the Vo5 worked once, but I couldn't use it more than once- it got greasy again! So I started alternating between a diluted shampoo wash and conditioner, and CO only. I'm using Garnier Nutrise color shampoo that seems to have protected the color better than I thought.

I actually did a deep coconut oil treatment but it wouldn't wash out so I had to use straight shampoo. I wasn't able to get out all the oil though so it left some moisture in. I think I used too much oil? :confused:

LifeisAdventure
May 11th, 2008, 09:37 PM
Just wanted to let everyone know that a full length shampoo (I usually only do the scalp) plus an ACV rinse seem to have fixed my weird mushy ends, for now at least! Thanks for the input!

alligatorbaby23
May 11th, 2008, 10:01 PM
I am not sure if it was DBF or HCH that stated that CO washes need to be followed by a 2 minute rinse time, it may seem excessive, but our teeth take 3 minutes to get clean, just a tip, oh and with non-cone dishes !