School took down my daughter's braided updo!! Where do you draw the line?

[suicides_eve]

Yes. You read that right. And I am on a rant. I recently been watching some of Cinnamonhair's videos and been trying them out on my daughter who has about midback hair. Her day care complains about the hair when it is down so i usually keep it back in a pony or pig tails. Well, I been practicing this one braided updo on her for a while and felt confident i nailed it. Because hair sticks (ie weapons) are not allowed in school i had to use bobby pins to hold it in place. It came out so beautiful. She loved it. It held up to her jumping around this morning and was firmly in place. The day care loved it. I was smiling as a left.. >>>>fast forward to 5 pm>>> I go in to day care to pick her up only to find this hideous hat on her head while they were out side playing.. She takes the hat off and the up do is completly removed!!! all what seemed like a million bobby pins were missing but 1 that got tangled in her hair!!!!

Where in the work did all those pins go???? She then told me her Pre K (public school system) made her take them out. She is only 4 and didn't explain much but she told me the teacher threw them in the "cash"can and it made her cry. She liked her hair.. :angry: are you *&^^&% serious?? where do they get off taking her hair down and throwing my bobby pins in the trash??? I know, I know, trivial about the bobby pins but i'm a single mom! I try to save what i can and not trash perfectly good things.


I am so damn mad i could drive up to that empty school and just yell at that big empty building telling it how i feel!!


STORY UPDATE on page 6

[EvaSimone]

I would talk to the teacher to find out exactly what happened. That's so odd and I hope the teacher didn't just remove the style from her hair.

If for example some kids pulled her hair out of the updo and it was barely hanging up there the teacher might have helped take it the rest of the way down, she still should have saved the pins to give back to you.

Something smells fishy...

[didrash]

I can't believe that! I would complain to the principal if I were you! First for throwing away your property, and second, for disturbing your child! Any teacher that makes a child cry in humiliation should be fired.

[enfys]

That's not right unless there is an explanation and an apology.

In my day, teacher put things in her drawer until the end of the day, she didn't bin them.

And as for making a little girl cry...I wouldn't think you were mad if you did drive down there just to shout at concrete.

[GlassEyes]

Speak to the teacher.

If that were my kid, I'd demand an explanation. I can't imagine why they'd remove bobby pins. o-o;; And as for the tears, that alone would make me want to rip them a new one.

It could be that something happened and they had to remove them, and your daughter might've not understood fully what was going on. Or something. But still, ask.

[MemSahib]

Certainly ask some questions of her teacher before you rant at them. There might have been a reason you don't know about for them to take her hair down. And do ask that if they have to do that in the future that they save your bobby pins. Somebody wasn't thinking clearly, for sure.

[Lamb]

Maybe the teacher thought the bobby pins could be dangerous (flying out of your daughter's hair, poking someone in the eye, that sort of thing)?

But by all means, demand an explanation.

[Kaijah]

That's absurd to me. I can understand how they wouldn't allow hair sticks, "just in case," but bobby pins? Really?

I think you're right to be po'd. Definitely go talk to the teacher. In person if you can, and see the principal/higher ups, especially since it made your daughter cry. Not to mention the lack of calling/explaining it to you to start with.

[Delila]

I think a better explanation (from an adult) is in order.

If there's a policy about what styles (and equipment) are and aren't allowed, you should be informed ahead of time.

[Fractalsofhair]

Call up the school. In my school, if a student is caught with a weapon that is not a bomb(and even then,. the police try to figure out how easily it will explode. That's only happened once, and our chem teacher took the blame for it because she gave the materials to one of my friends. He apparently thought a small bomb(Ie, harmless if done on a lab table with students standing a reasonable distance away) would be a good show and tell in chem class thing. The teacher agreed, but the Vice principal did not.), it is brought to the main office, or given to the police officer, the parents are called, and required to pick the child up from detention, and are then given the weapon. This is the rule for ALL grade levels, ranging from prek to high school. I'm still not sure how a hairstick is a weapon, but I suppose if it is one, a bobby pin might be. I mean, I could understand knitting needles, and things like that, but even then... You can't really do a ton of harm with those. But then again, my high school deals with things like knife fights, not hairstick fights!

I can see how a teacher might remove bobby pins if your child was using them to poke other students, but even then, I'd think she'd keep them and give them to you. Try using scrunchies to get around bans on updos. Also, HIDE the bobby pins in her hair if they're needed. Ask the school to buy you some new bobby pins. The teacher should get funds for classroom activities. Why do they complain about her hair when it's down? If they say it gets in the way, then explain you were trying to stop tangling and such. If you need to, a doctor's note is a good way to go. Seriously, it was the only way I was allowed to get out of nap time, and play "boy games" after my fave preschool teacher got fired(He was transgender, and a lot of parents objected to that sadly.). By boy games, I mean things like painting, and hopscotch. Girls were supposed to sit quietly and play with dolls, or very rarely play dressup. At your daughter's annual, you could probably get a note saying that your daughter's hair must be left in the same style as it was put in in the morning, and if it is removed from the style, you must have an explanation as to why, as if you keep it out of her face, it tangles less, and it "irritates" her scalp if you have to comb it too much. Or, if you belong to a church of any faith(Or none whatsoever!), claim religious reasons for her hair length, and say it's easier to keep it up. Also, why would they put an ugly hat on her head? If her hair gets knocked down by playing, it would probably stay down. If her teacher took it out and actually did throw out the bobby pins, if she told your daughter not to tell you, she may have been trying to prevent you from noticing. Also, probably say you're worried about lice with the spare hat! Do explain you can't afford to randomly lose bobby pins randomly, and tell them you expect a return of your stolen items. Seriously, if need be,threaten to ask the police to investigate. It may seem like overkill, but a lot of public schools won't act until they're faced with a lawsuit. Of course, ask to speak to the teacher first, and only if the teacher doesn't act, do you go onto the further steps.

Was her hair messy as thought it had fallen out in play, or had been cleanly taken out by an adult? That might clarify it a bit.

[merseaone]

I went to a Parochial School growing up and there was a girl in my class that had the most beautiful long black hair that she kept in a braid. One day the teacher called her to her desk, took out some scizzors and cut the braid off! You know there was hell to pay shortly thereafter!

[Bene]

I'd be livid. It's not the teacher's job to be in your daughter's hair. Maybe if her ponytail came undone and she needed help putting it up, that's understandable, but taking down a bun? I can't see how there'd be any rules about hairstyling. Sure, hair sticks and forks could be dangerous, but bobby pins?




I went to a Parochial School growing up and there was a girl in my class that had the most beautiful long black hair that she kept in a braid. One day the teacher called her to her desk, took out some scizzors and cut the braid off! You know there was hell to pay shortly thereafter!

Ok, this thread is making my blood pressure go up. I hope that teacher lost her job.

[Olivia23]

Merseaone- OMG you've got to be kidding. They cut her braid!!!

[halo_tightens]

That's simply absurd.

If the teacher is the one who took down her hair, there'd better be a really effing good reason!! Why on earth is it any of their business how a child has her hair??

If the updo fell down partway through the day and the teacher simply helped get it undone and the pins out, there's still no reason to throw them out. If they thought that bobby pins were somehow inappropriate for children to handle, the pins should have been kept until they could be returned to you.

They owe you and your daughter a HUGE apology, replacements for all the pins that were stolen and thrown out, and quite possibly disciplinary action against the teacher, IMO.

[yogachic]

They may have done it to put a hat on for playing outside, but they should have explained it and given you the bobby pins back, at the very least. Sorry to hear they did that.

[Jemoiselle]

I cannot WAIT to ear the conclusion of this one. I would be outraged, insulted, and possibly switch her to a different teacher. I remember way back when I was in 1st grade, my teacher Mrs. Veltri (amazing, her name is one of the few I remember) always shamed me and somehow seemed to find ways to make me feel bad. I was only 5 or 6 for crying out loud. I asked my Mom to help me, and she did. She took it up with the principal, and got me a new teacher. At the next and last day of her class, she told the class I didn't like them and was going to go get a new class so to say goodbye to me. This is in Washington State public schools, Spokane WA. It affected how I view leadership, and to this day, I resent it. Do address this asap, and let us know what happens. Remember, little things stick to kids in big ways. You have every right to be dramatic.

I am so sorry. We'll be here if you need to rant more! I agree they owe you new bobby pins, a thorough explanation, and a supervised apology. To the person who witnessed some teacher cutting off a braid, I don't know if as a parent I could avoid the urge to walk up to that teacher and cut off her hair with my scissors! Seriously, I would be violently out of control insane crazy mad.

[Fractalsofhair]

I went to a Parochial School growing up and there was a girl in my class that had the most beautiful long black hair that she kept in a braid. One day the teacher called her to her desk, took out some scizzors and cut the braid off! You know there was hell to pay shortly thereafter!
That actually happened this year to my physic's teacher's daughter, and a dear male friend of mine. My physics teacher's daughter has dark blonde/light brown hair(from the mother), and my physics teacher has DARK hair. They thought the mother dyed her hair, and when they met with my physics teacher, they actually cut her hair pretty short apparently soon after. When he was talking about it, he was motioning above his shoulders, and he pointed at about APL on another teacher who was in the room as to what it was before, and they told her she couldn't curl it or dye it in the future(she apparently has curly hair and I'm going to guess it was a blondish shade given how they were talking about how his wife must dye her hair, when our teacher said she only does now to cover grays but it's about the same color as before) He then started talking about how she said she doesn't dye it, and how it's the same color as her brother's hair. The school said they were being kind by not forcing her to shave her head as they did to her brother when he dyed his hair bright color for halloween(admitedly, he had a buzz cut I guess), and if he objected to the school's rules, he could send his child to a different school for the next year, but that there would be no refund for the current year. As for as my guy friend, he had a little bit longer than shoulder length hair that had a very uneven hemline. His Latin teacher tried to talk about how Jesus had long hair(My friend finds it fun to talk in Latin in Latin class. XD), but apparently the school thought it was a bad image with his beard, and he was given the choice to neaten it up or get it cut off at school. He didn't think the school would actually cut his hair. Of course, he also thought his Latin teacher didn't mind him swearing quite often in essays and getting sidetracked and writing about dating in the Roman era and how Nero was apparently his boyfriend of his dreams(I'm still not even sure what to make of that when he told me his teacher told him to not write strange things like that in class. He thinks it makes perfect sense and is funny...)as opposed to how the pope has impacted the world thruout the ages. XD Generally speaking though, women have an easier time with long hair at private schools than men, and if a public school has a dresscode, a student has to follow it. I know some schools do have rules against relaxers or heat styled hair and makeup to cut down on the time students spend on their beauty before school and such, but those rules are pretty rare. My school's dresscode is basically depending on how well the teacher gets along with you.The official rules are very strict. But they aren't really enforced. I've gotten away with pretty noticable makeup, and even a faux corset once. Yet I know girls that have gotten detentions for wearing a cami with jeans and a sweater over it. I'm on decent terms with most of my teachers so it's not a big deal, esp as I don't have to take gym. Then, body hair played a big role in what I was allowed to wear, where I was allowed to change and such. Generally, if a student complains about what I wear, the teacher just moves the student's desk or mine, so they don't have to see me. (I've heard some pretty silly reasons as to why my dress is weird, mostly related to my body, not my style of dress. The key ones tend to be either she wears too much makeup(by a girl wearing more than I ever do XD!!!), she doesn't shave, she's wearing black, or she has a weird hair color. Generally teachers don't put a ton of stock in those comments. )

[Flynn]

How odd... And how much odder that there was no explanation from a teacher!

I can only imagine that either another child pulled it out and the teacher finished taking it down, or it was checking-for-headlice-day.

If neither of those are the reason, I would be considering a formal complaint to the school board, and trying to find out if there is another school/kindergarten she can attend.

[lovelylaura]

Teacher must be jealous of your daughter's beautiful long hair :)

[shadowclaw]

How strange! I'd be pretty mad, too. For one, the teacher took apart a hairdo that she had no right to touch. I'm pretty sure there are no hairstyle restrictions in public schools beyond maybe having wild colors or using pointy, weapon-like objects (e.g. metal hairsticks) in the style. If I were you, I probably wouldn't even bother with questions and just start yelling... but really, it would be a good idea to ask why the teacher took out the hairstyle, and if it's some completely B.S. reason, then shout.

Second, the teacher had no right to throw away the pins. Those pins were your personaly property and she should have saved them. And if bobby pins are considered weapons, then this country has really gone down the toilet. It's already bad enough that little kids are getting sent to reform school because they brought a camping eating utensil to school or their grandma sent a knife to cut a cake with. See this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html) if you want to get riled up about the ridiculousness of schools.


I went to a Parochial School growing up and there was a girl in my class that had the most beautiful long black hair that she kept in a braid. One day the teacher called her to her desk, took out some scizzors and cut the braid off! You know there was hell to pay shortly thereafter!

I don't know what a Parochial school is, but that crosses waaaaay beyond the line. I would personally shave that woman's head after I slapped her around a few times.


I remember way back when I was in 1st grade, my teacher Mrs. Veltri (amazing, her name is one of the few I remember) always shamed me and somehow seemed to find ways to make me feel bad. I was only 5 or 6 for crying out loud. I asked my Mom to help me, and she did. She took it up with the principal, and got me a new teacher. At the next and last day of her class, she told the class I didn't like them and was going to go get a new class so to say goodbye to me.

This reminds me of the son of a woman I work with. He has ADHD and depression to begin with, but he had the most horrible 5th grade teacher in the world. She just seemed to hate him for no reason. The poor kid would forget one of his books almost every day, so his mom would drive him back to school to get it, and everytime the teacher would be there and give him hell for forgetting the book. Then when he finally escaped her and went into 6th grade, the first time he forgot a book and had to go back for it, there she was in the hallway yelling at him and telling him what a screwup he was. Luckily, his mother finally drew the line and gave both that teacher and the principal hell. The teacher never bothered him again!

[Quixii]

Omigod! That is horrible! I can't believe it! I want an explanation from the teacher. Grr!

[Tornerose]

That is WEIRD!

The logic comes in though, saying that maybe another kid pulled it, so it became messy, and then the teacher talked her into/pushed her to take it all down. If she's a shy kid who respects authorities she may have agreed to it, and then later regretted it?
I know that happened to me alot back in those days, I was too shy to express my feelings and the teachers, depending on their mood, talked me into things or pushed me to do stuff I didn't want to. Then I cried about it later.

[Thinthondiel]

I can't believe that a teacher would have the right to decide anything about a child's hair at all!

But then teachers here aren't even allowed to tell students how to dress... except if they're dressed "indecent", I suppose. I've heard of one school in Norway where bare bellies and visible panties/boxers etc. aren't allowed, and for all I know there might be more schools with that rule.

But anyway... I suppose I can understand school uniforms or rules about how to dress, even though I'm not used to it, but I do not find it acceptable for teachers to mess with a kid's hair! It shouldn't be any of their business how pupils wear their hair! Also, that teacher should not have thrown away your bobby pins. I would definitely complain if I were you.

[manderly]

Ok, ok, before we get all angry about this, you do need to talk to the teacher.

As someone who has volunteered at a preschool, I've witnessed the horrible deaths of beautiful braids and updos....not at the hands of the teachers, but of the fiddly little hands of the kiddies and their friends.

I've had to confiscate cute little barrettes that have fallen out of little girls' hair that the little boys find on the floor and instead of kindly returning, they try to keep them as "found" treasures. Yeah, right kiddo, I saw that on her head this morning, give it back.

I've also had to attempt to re-do a child's hairstyle after she's pulled out all the little bands and clips she could. :roll: Yeah, right. I ain't that good ;)

It is possible that her hair began to spit out bobby pins and the kids were picking them up and bending them out of shape and using them as boomerangs and stuff, hence the teacher took down the remaining hairstyle that was probably pulling and hanging by a thread and took all the "ammo" away.

That being said, she she have spoken to you about it and returned any undamaged bobby pins. That being said, why did you, as the mother, not take it upon yourself to find the teacher and speak to her when you picked your daughter up?

It could even be possible that the teacher threw away all damaged pins, but put the ok ones in her desk drawer and forgot to give them to you and you didn't ask......I've had to hold onto their items when they won't put it in their cubby and leave it. At the end of the day it can be very easy to forget to give back some bobby pins when mom picks up her kiddo.


So, to summarize, please speak to her about what happened, let her know that you would appreciate returning your hair items and only to undo a hairstyle if your child complains of discomfort or it poses some kind of danger :) Let us know what happens, I'm curious :D

[Laylah]

Wow, I hope to see the conclusion to this. Schools can be so odd. When I was in sixth grade, despite the school's "multicultural" theme, I was sent to the principal's office for having mehandi on my hands. Apparently they thought it could be gang symbols.

[heatherdazy]

I am curious to know what really happened? Imo, taking an updo down and ESPECIALLY putting a HAT on a child is totally unacceptable because of the possibility of LICE! Very common at that age!

[Rivanariko]

You need to talk to the teacher, but please make sure you do so in a rational way! There very well may be a good explanation for why the updo came down, and like Manderly said, it may have only been damaged or twisted pins that went into the trash.

I know this is not the case for your daughter, but let me provide a little opposite perspective on the issue of "messing" with kids hair.
I was a student instructor at a therapeutic horseback riding center that brought children from local public schools special education programs out to the barn once a week to ride as part of their adaptive PE classes. It was a WONDERFUL program, and I always felt like I was doing so much good in these kids lives. Now, of course, we have no control over what these kids wear to school that day, and it's always sad when we have to tell one of the girls that they can't ride that day because they wore a dress or a skirt, or any of the students that they can't ride because they're wearing open-toed shoes. That's not usually too much of a problem, though. However, ALL students are required to wear a safety helmet at all times around the horses. This is both for insurance and liability reasons as well as generally a good safety practice.
There was one little girl in our preK class who was ADORABLE. She was the sweetest little thing and would cry every day when it was time to get off the horse. She loved being at the barn and loved riding. Her mom also loved to do her hair. She had the prettiest collection of bobbles and clips we'd seen in a while. Normally I could adjust a style to fit under a helmet, but those bobbers were not going to work. So we had to remove all of the toys from her hair before we could put her helmet on. We put them in a bowl and set it on the washing machine while she rode, and would give them back to the teacher after she rode. Sometimes we would try to put them back in... but gave up after a week or two. We simply didn't have time because we had more students to get ready, and, quite frankly, none of us could figure out how to get the dang things back in.
I would hate to have her poor teacher (a VERY sweet woman) get an angry phone call from her mother screaming about how her daughter's hair had been ruined. In this case, it was a safety issue so that she could participate in an activity that was very important to her.

Now, if there is no good reason given, then you have a right to be livid. But seek a rational explanation first.

[RancheroTheBee]

I can understand if what Manderly said was true; for example, if the bobby pins were coming out, or something. But why was she forced to wear a hat? And why was she forced to remove the entire updo? I'm so utterly confused, and vaguely enraged on your part. To me, it sounds very fishy and my blood pressure seems to be going up a little.

You absolutely HAVE to tell us what you find out, by the way. HAVE to. Pinky-swear.

[mizk5110]

I can understand the teacher removing the 'do if it was lice-check day...that would also kind of explain why she threw the pins away. Otherwise something seems out of whack here...

[Toadstool]

This whole thread has made me so angry, and fractalsofhair it's not really my business but what kind of school do you go to? It sounds dreadful to me. When I was at school there was uniform and we had to wear skirts and ties and there was a suspension rule for "extravagant or offensive hairstyles" (sic) (so one boy was suspended for having a mohican). But that was in the 1980's, and even then you would be allowed to dye your hair a "natural" colour. And teachers would not be allowed to cut a pupil's hair themselves.
And these days it would be classed as assault.

[Masara]

My dd loves braided styles. She's always asking me to do them for her. And I know that when I put a pin in, it stays all day.
But I don't think I've ever collected her from school with her hair in the same style as when she left the house. She's one of natures' fiddlers. she's always taking her hair down and putting it in ponytails or just leaving it down. She's 8 now so her ponytails are fine, but she was doing this even when she was a young as the OP's daughter.

So I wasn't surprised about the OP's daughter coming back from school without her updo. If her dd says she didn't take it down herself, then I would probably ask the teacher why it was taken down. As for the bobby pins, maybe (maybe) the teacher thought they were a choking hazard or maybe somebody had been using them as weapons, but all the same they should have been given back at the end of the day. Or at least put to one side to be given back.
I'm looking forward to an explanation

[above_rubies]

Oh no, that's awful! If it turns out that she can't have bobby pins in her hair this (http://www.youtube.com/user/darksunnygirl#p/u/14/6usEuts-zsg) might be a good alternative. This one (http://www.youtube.com/user/darksunnygirl#p/u/12/W83bcURxhSU) is a variation of the first one. Looks like they might hold good and all it takes is a ponytail holder and a ribbon.

[Merlin]

You need to ask what the back story here is - in my experience schools and nurseries seldom do anything for no reason. Find out what their reasoning was.

As an aside, speaking both as a parent and a school employee, one should always talk to the member of staff concerned before your blood pressure goes up - it's amazing how far at variance from the events the version you get from your children!

[Addy]

I can understand the teacher removing the 'do if it was lice-check day...that would also kind of explain why she threw the pins away. Otherwise something seems out of whack here...

Ditto!

When my kids started pre-school, it was a weekly thing to check for bugs! They were on top of it and if it meant taking a ponytail or a braid out, then so be it... they got checked for buggies on a regular basis and I think this is what happened here.

Please update us. :)

[noelgirl]

The one thing that raises a flag with me is the hat. The hat was not your daughter's, was it? To me, it looks like the hat was an attempt at trying to hide something, and if it's borrowed, say, from the lost-and-found, it puts her at a huge risk for lice. Do get both sides of the story, though, there could be a reasonable explanation.

[Gladtobemom]

Please talk to the teacher. Find out what happened.

It all seems very strange.

[Yayasmurf]

I go in to day care to pick her up only to find this hideous hat on her head while they were out side playing.. She takes the hat off and the up do is completly removed!!! all what seemed like a million bobby pins were missing but 1 that got tangled in her hair!!!!

I am so damn mad i could drive up to that empty school and just yell at that big empty building telling it how i feel!!

You are much more tolerant than I am. My car would not have left the daycare parking lot until I went in and heard an explanation as to:

1. Who took my child's hair down. (child already said but I want to hear it again)
2. Why my child's hair has been taken down
3. Where the bobby pins are that were in her hair.
4. Why wasn't there a note giving me an explanation concerning my daughters hair without me having to come ask these questions.

I do hope you find that there was a reasonable explanation... and that the hair pins were not really thrown away. If NOT... there's always the old saying "The pin is mightier than the sword"... right a letter to the State Licensing Board or School Board and one to the editor of your local newspaper. :cool:

ETA: A bit confused as to whether it's a daycare or a school... we don't have them together in our state. That's why I said State Licensing Board.

[Gulbahar]

I do hope you find that there was a reasonable explanation... and that the hair pins were not really thrown away. If NOT... there's always the old saying "The pin is mightier than the sword"... right a letter to the State Licensing Board and one to the editor of your local newspaper. :cool:
What?! I mean, come on, this is about a hairdo and bobby pins. :rolleyes:

[Merlin]

What?! I mean, come on, this is about a hairdo and bobby pins. :rolleyes:

I pretty much agree here, it's not, after all that big a deal, really...

Ask them why they did it, if you're not happy ask them if they could not do it again, but at the end of the day if the nursery is good in all other regards (and places at good nurseries are worth hanging on to) is it worth causing a stink over it? If they don't like something about the way your daughter had her hair, are you really going to ditch a good nursery place over it?

[florenonite]

I can see there being a whole host of reasons for taking down the updo. Maybe it started to fall out and the pins were falling out, maybe some children thought it would be funny to take the pins out and poke people, etc.

As for the hat, was your daughter the only child in a hat? Perhaps the updo was taken out to put the hat on if it's sunny or cold, and regardless of the risk of lice in this case was probably meant in good faith. If your daughter was the only child in a hat it makes it look like she's wearing it to cover up her hair being taken down.

I'd also want an explanation for the bobby pins being thrown out. As Manderly said, perhaps it was only bent or broken ones that had been thrown out and the teacher merely forgot the others in her drawer. However, if she actually threw out perfectly good bobby pins, that's not on. That is your property and, if it's not permitted at school, it should have been confiscated, to be returned at the end of the day.

[Katze]

so what happened? Any news? Hope you get an answer soon...! I know if it were me the teacher would already have had an earful...

[merseaone]

Parochial schoolin my case was Catholic and the teacher was a Nun. Never did find out why she cut the girls braid. I'm sure she regretted it , though!

[Milui Elenath]

I don't think its just about bobbypins its about the lack of communication from the daycare and or pre Kindy.

It seem to me from reading the OP that her daughter goes to school at some point during day care and that may be why she could not get answers from the day care as the incident occurred at the school. - the school teacher by 5pm may have left for the day.

I can understand that there may me a simple answer as I work in childcare.

I know often hair comes out during sleep, play etc also clips are not allowed in our centre as we have children who have swallowed them - recently (they were thankfully not harmed). That said we remove clips and put them aside - we don't throw them out and I also doubt we would remove bobby pins in older children holding a hairstyle or even the younger children if they were snug we'd be more likely to keep an eye out for any stray and inform / ask a parent nicely at the end of the day not to use them and why. We have no policy against hair sticks :shrug:

BUT it seems as if the removal of them happened in a school environment where children are not at risk of choking on bobby pins. And doubtless other girls in the school would wear them in years above if not in pre K.

It also seems the daycare have already mentioned a dislike regarding her daughters hair being loose. Now whether this is a casual, its getting in her face when she eats etc or if its a general dislike only the OP can say.

I would certainly feel frustrated in the OP's position because if the teacher in question had gone home there is no way of her knowing until the following day. Really the school and the daycare (if they are separate) should have communicated with each other and the parent if there was any issue regarding her hairstyle / bobbypins or if there was an incident in which the childs hair was ruined, pulled out etc. Otherwise how will the OP know exactly what the problem was or if there was one at all?

I truly feel upset that this has happened, its horrible and I hope that the answers the OP gets are satisfactory.

Oh and about hats we have spares that are given to children to wear, they are washed afterwards and so there is no risk of lice. Our children have to wear hats outside its part of my states laws - but it sounds like its an unusual occurence for the OP to see her daughter in a hat but I wouldn't go throwing around accusations at the nursery about lice without being sure that they don't have spare hats that are properly cared for.

[hmmm]

I'm curious to know what really happened too... why would the teacher do that?

[Yayasmurf]

Originally Posted by Yayasmurf
I do hope you find that there was a reasonable explanation... and that the hair pins were not really thrown away. If NOT... there's always the old saying "The pin is mightier than the sword"... right a letter to the State Licensing Board or School Board and one to the editor of your local newspaper.


What?! I mean, come on, this is about a hairdo and bobby pins. :rolleyes:

My comment was meant to bring points of resolution to the mother "IF" the explanations given were not found to be satisfactory. We don't always have to resort to being PASSIVE or to VIOLENCE. I have found in the past that a thoughtfully written letter to those in authority or an open forum such as a newspaper can help alleviate frustration and/or help solve a problem.

At least that has been my experience... the mother of two, grown, law abiding, well adjusted adults. :)

[misspriss]

Considering first post was 4:16 PM yesterday (my time) I guess we won't hear back til after 4:00 PM today (it's only 9:26...). I am very anxious to hear and hope that there is a reasonable explanation.

I just wonder why, and if there was a reason, why not tell you about it?

[spidermom]

Pinning braids up with bobby pins makes my head hurt, especially after activity, and I'm thinking maybe the little girl was complaining. Plus, and I know you don't want to think this, but it's true - kids lie. She might have taken it down herself (or some other kid did it) and threw the pins away but thought she'd get into trouble if she said so. A teacher would generally save the pins if she/he took them out.

[Darkhorse1]

That's an assault--someone cutting your hair. Period. I don't care if it's a nun or God himself!! Unless there has been a specific reason, in which case a child should be asked to go home (ie, unsafe style etc), which I can't see. I went to catholic school and was growing out my hair and my teachers were never like that!

In regards to the OP's post, they better refund you on those pins. Period. If they removed them for whatever reason, they either save them or refund your money. End of story.

[Topaz]

Definitely have a calm, rational discussion with the teacher. Like someone else said, kids sometimes lie about what happened. They get scared that Mom will be upset and they make up a story to alleviate themselves from guilt. That's just the way little kids are.

I know when I was little, bobby pins with a rubber band squeezed crosswise in the middle made a wonderful imaginary bug. They were quite the treasure at school, and any little girl with bobby pins happily contributed hers to the 'bug' collection, which clearly damaged many a hairstyle. I can guarantee you those bobby pins never made it home again. I'm just saying, make sure of the facts before you rant at a teacher.

[halo_tightens]

I know when I was little, bobby pins with a rubber band squeezed crosswise in the middle made a wonderful imaginary bug. They were quite the treasure at school, and any little girl with bobby pins happily contributed hers to the 'bug' collection...

Sorry to hijack--
Can you explain this a little more, or make one and take a pic? I'm burning with curiosity now, lol. This isn't something we did in my school when I was little, although empty powder compacts became clams... that could talk. :)

[Fractalsofhair]

This whole thread has made me so angry, and fractalsofhair it's not really my business but what kind of school do you go to? It sounds dreadful to me. When I was at school there was uniform and we had to wear skirts and ties and there was a suspension rule for "extravagant or offensive hairstyles" (sic) (so one boy was suspended for having a mohican). But that was in the 1980's, and even then you would be allowed to dye your hair a "natural" colour. And teachers would not be allowed to cut a pupil's hair themselves.
And these days it would be classed as assault.

No, my school is decent with the dresscode, though horrid in other ways! XD I go to a public school. Our official dresscode is strict, but no teachers enforce it unless you're on their bad side and they want to annoy you.

One of my friends goes to a different school and he had to cut his hair. He goes to a private school, and well, private schools can do whatever they want. He could have theoretically just gotten a nice trim to even it up, but he didn't think the school would actually cut his hair. My physics teacher sends his children to another private school, and they are equally strict, if not worse. They think my physics teacher's daughter dyes her hair, which may be true, but I'm not so sure of it, since he knows more about makeup than a lot of guys and somehow, I'd think if the dye was noticable, he would have noticed. I'm not actually opposed to uniforms myself, it would make school a lot easier. Though, I would like a once a week reprive. My town opposes them under the idea that they'd cost too much. Which is understandable.

[Topaz]

LOL! It's so simple. Open up the bobby pin, insert the rubberband in a crosswise position to the bobby pin, and clamp the rubberband in the point where the bobby pin closes the tightest. Tuck the two halves of the rubberband up close together to create sort of 'teardrop' shaped wings, and the parts of the rubberband extending outward from the bobby pin are loose and floppy and with the right movement of the hand, they can appear to be flapping (or maybe flopping) wings. I always made the rounded part of the bobby pin the bug's head, and MY bugs were always graceful dragon flies. Most of the other girls named their butterflies, and most of the boys named their bees and wasps. Many a fun bug war was fought with those silly little things. It was a just a stupid little thing us kids did.

I hope that was a good enough explanation that you can visualize it. The clams are pretty evident, but is there something beyond the obvious that I'm missing?

And back on the topic, let me add that NO bobby pin was safe. AND that the girls wearing the bobby pins were willing accomplices.

[halo_tightens]

Ahhh, I see. Yes, to me that would be a dragonfly as well.

And the clams were indeed just empty compacts, lol. No work required unless you wanted to add eyes or decorate them. :)

[LadyLongLocks]

Could be that the pins were slipping out. If you never tried this style before there may have been a problem that happened during the day. Maybe the teacher felt she needed to remove the bobby pins if they were slipping out. ( They slip out of my hair after a while)
They should have offered an explanation for sure.
Maybe bobby pins are considered dangerous at the school.

Hope you can re-create this style on a non school day and your daughter can enjoy it. It will also allow you to examine the pins to see if they slip out or stay in.

I look forward to the explanation from the teacher.
You deserved a note or verbal reason.

[Babyfine]

I used to volunteer in a preschool and we would never have dreamed of re-arranging a little girl's hairstyle.
Sometimes during playtime however, or putting on/taking off of coats, hats, ect the hairstyle might come undone. Usually we would either put it back together if we could- or just put the hair accessories (pins, barrettes,scunchies, ect) in the child's back-pack to take home. I think the teacher would explain to the parent (her style came out) when the parent came to pick up the child-

[blondecat]

posting for an update :)

[JCFantasy23]

Ok, this thread is making my blood pressure go up. I hope that teacher lost her job.

Me too, sigh.

[suicides_eve]

Well ladies here is the rest of the story.
After cooling down the next morning,I asked for a conference with the teacher and this took place last night.

Apparently there is a boy in her pre K class at public school who is very umm not controlled. The teacher was explaining some of his odd behaviors to me and she constanly has problems with him.And apparently my daughter's hair must have been something he had his eye because the whole 2 hours or what ever they are in school he kept leaving his table to poke at it.( yeah that's right he walked up and poked at with his finger) i guess it really interested him. The teacher and her assistance had place him in the time out chair because they have a no touch policy in class. Well something happen and he jumped up from the chair and started yanking seriously yankin at her hair and the pins. He was quickly pulled off her her but the damage was done. The boys mother was called in an he was picked up from school. The teacher's assistant ( who is young) thought nothing of the pins and threw them in the trash. they said my daughter wasn't really sure what happen ( i guess shock!) They said it wasn't there responsibly to re style the hair so they left it in a hot lookin mess because it was almost time to dismiss. I was not notified because "it was not a big deal, and the school handled it according" .. um yeah i should know when a kid goes crazy on my daughters hair... I then firmly told them i don't care if she sneezes in class i want it sent home in a note. And if that child touches her again I'm going to the school board to start cutting loose.

I am still sore about the whole situation. I as her mother, should of been notified. My 4 year old should not be the one to try to explain what went down to me.

From now on, I'll save the pretty braids for when she's not in school



After speaking with the day care..
The day care ( that i love) one of the ladies had tried to fix it but with out much luck. To keep the hair from her eyes while playing they lent her a hat that was in there spare clothes supply. they said they were sorry but i told them no worries. they prefer her hair not being down because they don't want an accident on the play ground.. (example one time it got stuck in swing links.. or the one time it got in her face while running and fell down) It's safer to them if it's tied back and I fully see their point.


My main concern now is this child who obviously has some kind of issues. If something so simple as that had sent him off into a fit.. should he really be in class with other kids? So far my daughter has not had any more probblems from him.

[halo_tightens]

I don't quite know what to make of this little boy's odd behavior, and I'm not going to start the debate on who should/shouldn't be in what kind of class...

I'm just glad to hear you did receive an explanation in the end. Hopefully the adults in charge will be a little more aware and cautious in the future!

[gnegirl]

There was an autistic boy in my neighborhood who had issues with the hose at the pool, for some reason he really hated it.

[Medievalmaniac]

Ummm....I'm sorry, but I'm chiming in here with one comment: The day care aide, no matter HOW inexperienced, etc. - should NOT have just thrown the bobby pins out, she should have put them in a cup or a baggie or something so you still had them.

This is a CONSTANT problem with my daughter's hair. She has TBL hair and I put it up every morning, ESPECIALLY since there was a confirmed case of lice in her classroom. 4 days out of 5 she comes home and is missing at least one barrette and a couple of bobby pins. Once, I sent her with her VERY OWN Flexi-8 mini - and she lost it during recess, told her p.e. teacher and he didn't bother looking for it because "it's just a barrette" (I was LIVID...Mister, that "just a barrette" cost a little more than the ones at CVS!!) In terms of the bobby pins, she tells me she lost them, or her teacher took them out. Ummm....OK, so I GET they are only bobby pins, but can you please just put them in her backpack or something? It might only be one or two, but if she loses one or two every day, that adds up, and I don't particularly want to spend my discretionary income replacing items I've already bought and should have plenty of, just because they seem inconsequential to others.

Needless to say, my daughter's bobby pins and such come home in the backpack nowadays. I hope that is the case for you from now on as well. It's NOT OK for a teacher or a teacher's aide to throw a child's property in a garbage can in front of that child! Even if it IS "just bobby pins". It's NOT "just bobby pins" to the child - it's HER things! :o(

[halo_tightens]

Ummm....I'm sorry, but I'm chiming in here with one comment: The day care aide, no matter HOW inexperienced, etc. - should NOT have just thrown the bobby pins out, she should have put them in a cup or a baggie or something so you still had them.

This is a CONSTANT problem with my daughter's hair. She has TBL hair and I put it up every morning, ESPECIALLY since there was a confirmed case of lice in her classroom. 4 days out of 5 she comes home and is missing at least one barrette and a couple of bobby pins. Once, I sent her with her VERY OWN Flexi-8 mini - and she lost it during recess, told her p.e. teacher and he didn't bother looking for it because "it's just a barrette" (I was LIVID...Mister, that "just a barrette" cost a little more than the ones at CVS!!) In terms of the bobby pins, she tells me she lost them, or her teacher took them out. Ummm....OK, so I GET they are only bobby pins, but can you please just put them in her backpack or something? It might only be one or two, but if she loses one or two every day, that adds up, and I don't particularly want to spend my discretionary income replacing items I've already bought and should have plenty of, just because they seem inconsequential to others.

Needless to say, my daughter's bobby pins and such come home in the backpack nowadays. I hope that is the case for you from now on as well. It's NOT OK for a teacher or a teacher's aide to throw a child's property in a garbage can in front of that child! Even if it IS "just bobby pins". It's NOT "just bobby pins" to the child - it's HER things! :o(

I just want to second this, and loudly! It's very true.

[above_rubies]

Well ladies here is the rest of the story.
After cooling down the next morning,I asked for a conference with the teacher and this took place last night.

Apparently there is a boy in her pre K class at public school who is very umm not controlled. The teacher was explaining some of his odd behaviors to me and she constanly has problems with him.And apparently my daughter's hair must have been something he had his eye because the whole 2 hours or what ever they are in school he kept leaving his table to poke at it.( yeah that's right he walked up and poked at with his finger) i guess it really interested him. The teacher and her assistance had place him in the time out chair because they have a no touch policy in class. Well something happen and he jumped up from the chair and started yanking seriously yankin at her hair and the pins. He was quickly pulled off her her but the damage was done. The boys mother was called in an he was picked up from school. The teacher's assistant ( who is young) thought nothing of the pins and threw them in the trash. they said my daughter wasn't really sure what happen ( i guess shock!) They said it wasn't there responsibly to re style the hair so they left it in a hot lookin mess because it was almost time to dismiss. I was not notified because "it was not a big deal, and the school handled it according" .. um yeah i should know when a kid goes crazy on my daughters hair... I then firmly told them i don't care if she sneezes in class i want it sent home in a note. And if that child touches her again I'm going to the school board to start cutting loose.

I am still sore about the whole situation. I as her mother, should of been notified. My 4 year old should not be the one to try to explain what went down to me.

From now on, I'll save the pretty braids for when she's not in school



After speaking with the day care..
The day care ( that i love) one of the ladies had tried to fix it but with out much luck. To keep the hair from her eyes while playing they lent her a hat that was in there spare clothes supply. they said they were sorry but i told them no worries. they prefer her hair not being down because they don't want an accident on the play ground.. (example one time it got stuck in swing links.. or the one time it got in her face while running and fell down) It's safer to them if it's tied back and I fully see their point.


My main concern now is this child who obviously has some kind of issues. If something so simple as that had sent him off into a fit.. should he really be in class with other kids? So far my daughter has not had any more probblems from him.

Oh my, they definitely should have sent home a note explaining THAT whole fiasco. Sorry that happened. :( :grouphug:

[spidermom]

Glad to see there was an explanation. Hopefully the boy involved isn't dangerous to himself or others. It's pretty hard to enforce a no-touch policy on children that young. (PS - as for throwing the bobby pins away; how rude! The aide should have to replace them.)

[JamieLeigh]

The way the school should have handled this, IMHO, if there was a problem with the hairstyle, is to call you and have YOU come and take it down yourself. And if you or an authorized representative of you couldn't get there, then they should just let you know via phone or note, EXACTLY what was wrong with this hairstyle and ask you not to do it again. And I really hope that the boy's parents are dealing with their child. I have had problems with my son too.

Bottom line:There is no reason for anyone else but you and your child to handle any part of your child's body.

[Aries_jb]

I get the thing about taking out the hairstyle, but to not notify you that some boy was bothering your daughter? How in the world could they think it was okay to not tell you about that because they handled it themselves? I would still want to know that happened.

[Themyst]

I was not notified because "it was not a big deal, and the school handled it according"

Umm ... a kid was sent to a 'time-out' chair and subsequently sent home for his behavior towards your little girl and they didn't think that was a BIG DEAL? Good grief, what goes on there that IS a big deal?!!

[Bene]

Ummm....I'm sorry, but I'm chiming in here with one comment: The day care aide, no matter HOW inexperienced, etc. - should NOT have just thrown the bobby pins out, she should have put them in a cup or a baggie or something so you still had them.

This is a CONSTANT problem with my daughter's hair. She has TBL hair and I put it up every morning, ESPECIALLY since there was a confirmed case of lice in her classroom. 4 days out of 5 she comes home and is missing at least one barrette and a couple of bobby pins. Once, I sent her with her VERY OWN Flexi-8 mini - and she lost it during recess, told her p.e. teacher and he didn't bother looking for it because "it's just a barrette" (I was LIVID...Mister, that "just a barrette" cost a little more than the ones at CVS!!) In terms of the bobby pins, she tells me she lost them, or her teacher took them out. Ummm....OK, so I GET they are only bobby pins, but can you please just put them in her backpack or something? It might only be one or two, but if she loses one or two every day, that adds up, and I don't particularly want to spend my discretionary income replacing items I've already bought and should have plenty of, just because they seem inconsequential to others.

Needless to say, my daughter's bobby pins and such come home in the backpack nowadays. I hope that is the case for you from now on as well. It's NOT OK for a teacher or a teacher's aide to throw a child's property in a garbage can in front of that child! Even if it IS "just bobby pins". It's NOT "just bobby pins" to the child - it's HER things! :o(

I don't think it' should be the teacher's job to find misplaced possessions. If it's something that the teacher has in hand that belongs to the child, yes they should set it aside for the parents.


But if the kid lost it? It could be a $300 dollar mp3 player, it doesn't matter, the teacher shouldn't have to stop what they're doing to go look for something.

[RancheroTheBee]

I can't believe they wouldn't bother sending you a note or calling you about this. It seems really absurd that they would just assume that you wouldn't question why your daughter

a) had a new hat.
b) was so upset.

Bah!

[Darkhorse1]

I was just thinking that boy sounds like he has mild autism and most likely will need a special school if he doesn't listen/can't control his impulses. If he found your daughter's hair interesting, he needs to know he CANNOT touch her, and the school acted quickly and had the child removed from the situation ASAP. I think the big problem I see is that they should have notified you that your daughter had been ASSAULTED by another child!! The hair is a secondary issue--the assault is bothersome to me!

Honestly? Don't wait. I would ask to speak to the principal. If that child had such an impulse problem, then what's to say her ponytail won't start a problem? The sooner things are addressed, the better for all kids in that class room.

[Gingevere]

I'm no child behavioral expert, but that sounds like typical little kid behavior to me. Anyone here read Ramona the Pest? Young children are just beginning to learn how to regulate their own behavior and be respectful of others. Little boys also tend to be a little obsessive-compulsive, in my experience. He probably just saw that cool braided style and couldn't resist. Still, I hope his mother and/or the Pre-K disciplined him properly because part of the reason for day care and early-childhood education is to teach kids how to relate to others. He needs understand that what he did is not okay and that consequences always follow rude actions.

The proper handling of the situation would have included the Pre-K fixing your daughter's hair so that it wouldn't be distracting to her, not just leaving it a "hot mess". At least the day care tried to fix it, but giving her a hat wasn't such a good idea because of the possibility of lice. Throwing away the bobby pins was very wrong, even if they are just bobby pins, but that can be blamed on the inexperience of the young assistant. And your daughter definitely should have been sent home with a note. Just sending her home in tears and confusion with no explanation was the height of irresponsibility, in my opinion.

[PatGear]

I agree with everyone that the school really should have sent your DD home with a note and that they should have kept the bobby pins. I would make my expectations known but not make a big deal out of it...unless it happens again, that is.


I don't think it' should be the teacher's job to find misplaced possessions. If it's something that the teacher has in hand that belongs to the child, yes they should set it aside for the parents.

But if the kid lost it? It could be a $300 dollar mp3 player, it doesn't matter, the teacher shouldn't have to stop what they're doing to go look for something.I agree 100% with this. If your child is not old enough to care for an item, then you probably shouldn't send them to school with it.

[misspriss]

Umm ... a kid was sent to a 'time-out' chair and subsequently sent home for his behavior towards your little girl and they didn't think that was a BIG DEAL? Good grief, what goes on there that IS a big deal?!!


If they had to call the boy's parent to take him home because his behavior towards your daughter was unacceptable, I believe they should have at least given you some explanation. Since when is having to call parents to take a child home not a big deal?Also, they should have kept the bobby pins, but a mistake is a mistake. I consider trashing the bobby pins forgivable, but not telling you that your daughter was basically assaulted, that is a little different. I am glad you got to talk with the teacher and at least got an explanation!

[Lamb]

It's not rocket science to figure out why no note was sent: the teachers did not prevent the boy from acting out towards the OP's daughter (and, to be fair, it takes all of one second for a little boy to get out of the naughty chair).
It could easily be pointed out to them that when a child is behaving mischiefous against the other kids in the classroom (in this case, the OP's daughter), the solution is not to send him to the time-out chair but to send him to a different room, away from "temptation."

[pinkbunny]

I'm not condoning what the boy did, but I doubt he was "disturbed" - he probably just likes her and he's too immature to know how to act. When I was in Pre-K, there was a little boy named Casey Byrd who would TERRORIZE me constantly. At first I thought he was just mean, but one day after school the class was waiting in the carpool area and he tried to kiss me so I clobbered him with my lunchbox! lol (not that I would condone that, either, but he had it coming...)

[BranwenWolf]

I had almost-classic length hair from age 4 through age 17. I got it pulled on constantly but never had any playground accidents... there was this d**k on the bus that pulled my hair until my teacher caught him one day. He was a middle-schooler picking on a kindergarten girl and got in a LOT of trouble.

This thread makes my blood boil, along with others. This sort of incompetance from faculty (no offense to teachers, I have family that are teachers) is why I left public school, mom homeschooled me from 4th grade though high school.
I realize that's not an option for everyone but just letting you know you're not alone.

After re-reading I realize the teacher was probably between a rock and a hard place but I still don't think throwing the pins away was acceptable, and not telling you about it until you questioned again.

[enfys]

If the boy had a particular interest in braided hair, and the school nev er told, you'd never know to avoid the situation by not braiding her hair.

I agree that an item being lost is different to a person in authority binning it. One of my sister's teachers snapped my sister's eraser in half so another classmate could use it. Yes, the teacher vandalised something precious to my sister (it had Peter Rabbit on) It's in the same league. She's 26 now and still hates lending out her things after that.

At least the school won't bother you over every little assault, disrupting your day and all....

[lilish]

My guess is that things are like that every day and him assaulting another student is nothing new, and therefore nothing to write home about. I know that with pre-k they are still learning how to control their bodies and a certain amount of misbehavior is expected. However, this boy seems out of control. If they thought that behavior that sends a student home early is no big deal, then it is probably happening every day and they simply feel embarrassed having to call the parents of the assaulted students every time something happens. I would be concerned and make an appointment to see the principal. Voice your concerns over the lack of communication as well as your concern with your daughter being in the same class with this boy. He could just be a rambunctious boy, or he could be a boy that needs help and the teachers are jumping through hoops and red tape to get him help. A parent's voice adds weight to whatever is going on and can expedite the process. Yes I know I made some pretty big assumptions, but I figured another viewpoint may be helpful and you can take what you wish from it.

[Fractalsofhair]

To be honest, that sounds like normal male behavior(No offense to guys!), esp for a preschooler. Guys in high school still often lack control of "impluses", and older men as well(Not in a pervy way, but with close friends, guys do try to touch what they like. Esp with the non sexual things that they haven't thoughly been taught to NOT touch ever in public). When I dyed my armpit hair blue, a few guy friends wanted to touch it to see if it was real. In 8th grade, I got pink hair extensions for charity. A boy(who still does similar things with women's hair that he finds pretty.) grabbed an extension and it fell out.He started screaming and was quite upset about it since he thought it was my real hair. Women do the same thing, look at all the threads at "A STRANGER TOUCHED MY HAIR" and such. It's just how humans admire each other. I do think a no touch policy in preschool is silly, since preschoolers do grab each other and it's how we learn what contact is socially OK and what isn't. It's like having a no hugging policy in elementary schools. A no violent touches policy is better, and a time out if the kid is simply shoving someone, and a sent home if it's a serious repeated case of bullying, or something that could actually hurt any of the children. The difference between children and adults is that we can somewhat control our impulses, but with a close friend, if we liked their hair, we might grab it or run it through our fingers and comment on how soft it is or something like that. I mean, does anyone here seriously object to a close friend helping them brush or comb their hair(If one brushes/combs one's hair. Otherwise, putting it into an updo, or helping with a scalp massage etc)? Or a partner? As a sign of admiration of how pretty our hair is. Preschoolers have yet to know the difference between close friend and random friendly person who they go to school with, though most have learned the difference between family and non family, and total strangers. I do think it's sad he destroyed her hair style, and I do think a "time out" is worthwhile for a situation like that, as it did mess up something that took a while for you to put in her hair, and that she liked. It's not autism for a child to be a child. It's not ADHD for a child to be a child. Children ARE NOT miniature adults. Boys are loud and often "immature" in the sense they can't sit still and such generally speaking. Girls are the same way when we're not socialized to be quiet. My favorite hobby as a child was killing my barbies in morbid expansive plots, and I was certainly not neat or always polite. It's not a sign I was depressed or autistic, or had ADHD since I couldn't sit still, but a sign I was a child with a creative mind. My (sorta) boyfriend would try to throw paint on girls who wore tutus since he liked his, but wasn't allowed to wear it outside of the house unlike girls. My nephew has tried to pull out my hair when I had it blue since he likes strange hair colors.(I swear, the little kid will end up a punk rocker when he's older. He's already told his dad that he wants "Aunty A-'s music for Christmas" (I think he's referring to the Dead Kennedy's CD I let him listen to since he started to sing a very garbled version of "Holiday in Cambodia"(I think. It might have been another song.) when I asked him what type of music he liked.)) He has also tried to pull out his dad's hair because he likes the color(dark brown/black) compared to his mother's hair, which is a dark blonde/light brown, but reddish colored, which is the color my nephew has. My nephew is mature for his age, and remarkably well behaved compared to other children. He prefers to read to playing with bugs, and he paints and even tries to clean up after. He's very social, and gets along well with the kids at the gifted program he goes to. But, he's 4. He's a little kid. It's a sign generally of admiration, not dislike. I thought an adult teacher was willfully taking out her hairstyle, which is something an adult should be able to control in regards to non friends, and even with friends to a degree. The difference is, as adults, we say nice things about the hair we're pulling on, as opposed to just pulling it with no comments! The child was probably angry at being put in time out for what he thought was being a kind guy, complementing her hair in his childish way, hence why he acted out trying to remove it. And with the hairpins, that is understandable, but it does still seem strange to not collect them at all, but if the teacher is young, cutting her some slack is a good idea. Perhaps plain braids and plainer updos would be a better idea on a regular basis? My drugstore has GIANT boxes of bobby pins(500 per container) for about $6, in brown and black, so buying in bulk may be a good idea, along with using a scrunchies for most of the support so it's not as a big of a deal if it gets removed. (As 1-2 bobby pins aren't a big deal to lose, but 20-30 are.)

[Delila]

To the OP: I think you're right on track with the notion that a four year old shouldn't have been the one to explain what happened to you. The school should have stepped up, and since they didn't, I think it's a good idea to let the administrators (principal?) know your opinions. The teachers seem to have dropped the ball. Yes, the kid with impulse control issues was the main problem, and it sounds as though that was dealt with, but still.

[Gvnagitlvgei]

Merseaone- OMG you've got to be kidding. They cut her braid!!!

I would have CUT the teacher!

[Lamb]

It's not autism for a child to be a child. It's not ADHD for a child to be a child. Children ARE NOT miniature adults.
I agree with this, thank you for pointing this out Fractalsofhair.
On the other hand, I don't excuse impulsive and uncontrolled behavior in anyone regardless of gender. Tearing apart a girl's hair is naughty - you go to the naughty ROOM, not the naughty chair from whence you can get up and have at it in a split second. That's where the teacher made the mistake: not removing the boy from the scene until he calms down. But once the damage was done, you dont brush it off as if it was no big deal. I get it, noone died, but at least let the mother know that elaborate updos and little boys don't mix well.

[LittleOrca]

All I can say is just wow.

You should have been notified, point blank.

I am at a loss for any other words.

[Sissy]

I agree with this, thank you for pointing this out Fractalsofhair.
On the other hand, I don't excuse impulsive and uncontrolled behavior in anyone regardless of gender. Tearing apart a girl's hair is naughty - you go to the naughty ROOM, not the naughty chair from whence you can get up and have at it in a split second. That's where the teacher made the mistake: not removing the boy from the scene until he calms down. But once the damage was done, you dont brush it off as if it was no big deal. I get it, noone died, but at least let the mother know that elaborate updos and little boys don't mix well.

yes, I agree with this. Also, if this boy really does have more serious issues then he should NOT be in that daycare... he should be in a special needs daycare or a respite of some sort. IMO, inclusion can be intrusion and delusion in some cases. Of course maybe I'm a bit biased because I am a special education teacher in a facility where students have already been removed from the public school settings. Some of the behaviors I see would be very intrusive to the education process of other students and are very out of control and physical... you often wonder how the student was maintained in public school for the length of time they were.

[Sissy]

also, to the OP. I'm very sorry your daughter had to go through this. Let's just be thankful it didn't take her becoming injured for you to find out about these going ons. Now at least you know of this student and can keep abreast on any future issues. You have also done the right thing by stressing to the day care staff that you want to be informed of ANYTHING concerning your child. Hopefully, they'll respect your wishes and do just that. Best of luck!

[PseudoScot]

I am glad you got a decent explanation, but no idea if it's been said but I would let the bobby pins go. I can get why the gal threw them out - she thought them no big deal. Who knows, maybe they were on the floor or in the kid's mouth or wherever. Thing is, bobby pins are a dime a dozen. Yes, they were your property but considering all that was going on, the kids should come first, bobby pins second. They are utterly replaceable and are like the paper clips of the hair world. In the scheme of things they really aren't that important.

What is important is the care and it sounds like they handled it fine. Perfect? Perhaps not, but they did look out for your daughter and removed the troublesome child and took the time to explain it to you. I would consider it resolved at this point.

[Flynn]

Hmmm, another child attacks your daughter's hair, and you are not only not immediately notified, but not notified at all until you ask, because it was "not a big deal"?

I hope you made it extremely clear that they do not have an appropriate understanding of "not a big deal."

[hmmm]

I was just thinking that boy sounds like he has mild autism and most likely will need a special school if he doesn't listen/can't control his impulses. If he found your daughter's hair interesting, he needs to know he CANNOT touch her, and the school acted quickly and had the child removed from the situation ASAP. I think the big problem I see is that they should have notified you that your daughter had been ASSAULTED by another child!! The hair is a secondary issue--the assault is bothersome to me!

Honestly? Don't wait. I would ask to speak to the principal. If that child had such an impulse problem, then what's to say her ponytail won't start a problem? The sooner things are addressed, the better for all kids in that class room.

What's wrong with you people? I feel bad for that little boy... I can picture any of my brothers or little boys I know being fascinated with her hairdo. The school was WRONG to punish him for being fascinated with it. For heaven's sake, he's four years old, and a normal curious child! I completely understand the way he acted - he wouldn't have done it if he hadn't been punished.

In addition, the school was wrong to not make your daughter feel better. She would obviously have been traumatized by the whole thing, and putting her hair things in the trash was... a little silly. They should have a LOT more responsibility as adults taking care of young children.

[LittleOrca]

What's wrong with you people? I feel bad for that little boy... I can picture any of my brothers or little boys I know being fascinated with her hairdo. The school was WRONG to punish him for being fascinated with it. For heaven's sake, he's four years old, and a normal curious child! I completely understand the way he acted - he wouldn't have done it if he hadn't been punished.


There is being curious and there is being obsessive. In this case it appears more obsessive and not punishing the child in any form (not saying which is best here, just saying any punishment) could sent the message that it is alright to nearly maul another human just because you want to see something they have done with their hair or something they are wearing. Yes he is four, but I do not think that excuses his behavior. I am not claiming he is a little adult and therefore understands his actions, but no punishment does not seem beneficial in the long run. I do think things could have been handled a lot better than it was. I also think that beating a dead horse seems a little pointless. It's over, hopefully the school and the boy have learned a lessons and this will be prevented in the future.

[Rebelkat]

There is being curious and there is being obsessive. In this case it appears more obsessive and not punishing the child in any form (not saying which is best here, just saying any punishment) could sent the message that it is alright to nearly maul another human just because you want to see something they have done with their hair or something they are wearing. Yes he is four, but I do not think that excuses his behavior. I am not claiming he is a little adult and therefore understands his actions, but no punishment does not seem beneficial in the long run. I do think things could have been handled a lot better than it was. I also think that beating a dead horse seems a little pointless. It's over, hopefully the school and the boy have learned a lessons and this will be prevented in the future.
Well said, LittleOrca. I do kinda wonder if the little boy might be diabetic or hypoglycemic because when I was little and had a low blood sugar, I often turned aggressive and violent. The image in my head when I read the incident made me think of those episodes. Whatever the problem might be ("normal curiosity" or some kind of physical or mental disability), I hope that it can be sorted out before he really hurts someone else.

I'm really sorry that you're daughter experienced this, suicides eve. :flower:

[Flynn]

What's wrong with you people? I feel bad for that little boy... I can picture any of my brothers or little boys I know being fascinated with her hairdo. The school was WRONG to punish him for being fascinated with it. For heaven's sake, he's four years old, and a normal curious child! I completely understand the way he acted - he wouldn't have done it if he hadn't been punished.

In addition, the school was wrong to not make your daughter feel better. She would obviously have been traumatized by the whole thing, and putting her hair things in the trash was... a little silly. They should have a LOT more responsibility as adults taking care of young children.

If this was a case of repeated inappropriate behaviour following warnings, well, I think the school was probably in the right to take further action to make it clear that the boy wasn't doing the right thing. The fact that he reacted to punishment in such an agressive manner suggests that there is something unusual about him, and perhaps the school were not handling things as well as they might, if he was a special case.

There is a difference there. Fascination, fair enough. Go over, give it a poke, get told not to, stop. Fine. Repeatedly go over and touch it... not so fine, and for the sake of the child on the recieving end, action really needed to be taken.

[hmmm]

There is being curious and there is being obsessive. In this case it appears more obsessive and not punishing the child in any form (not saying which is best here, just saying any punishment) could sent the message that it is alright to nearly maul another human just because you want to see something they have done with their hair or something they are wearing. Yes he is four, but I do not think that excuses his behavior. I am not claiming he is a little adult and therefore understands his actions, but no punishment does not seem beneficial in the long run. I do think things could have been handled a lot better than it was. I also think that beating a dead horse seems a little pointless. It's over, hopefully the school and the boy have learned a lessons and this will be prevented in the future.

This is one depressing thread.
As far as I understood from the OP, the boy was just 'poking' her bun, which I would also probably do if I were four years old. They made him sit in a corner, not because he was being a nuisance to the girl - left to their own devices, it probably wouldn't even be an issue - but because there was a 'no-touch policy'. What sort of adult expects a kid to understand something like that? How else was he supposed to react, other than with anger and frustration? People value everything in children except the things that are important. How much better is a child as a human being if he does everything he's told to as meekly as possible?

All children have one problem which seems universal: not being able to communicate with adults. They are then punished when they express their frustration at not being able to communicate. What do you expect, man? It isn't 'spoiling' a child if you just understand him and his motives. Of course he has to be told what is acceptable and what is not. But shouldn't that be done in a way that he understands, rather than a way that he resents and makes him angry (and more likely to 'attack' her bun)?

I get really upset when ordinary children are called 'attackers' and said to have behaviourial problems when it's so clearly not their fault. This is why bright kids have such a hard time in school, and children who are 'good' (and not often as imaginative or creative) do much better. On the one hand we accept that it takes all kinds of people to make the world, and on the other we condemn the things they do simply because they aren't acceptable to the adult present. How can you judge what a four year old does? How can it be 'right' or 'wrong'? The only rule I can see for a child that young to follow is to be kind to people around him - which children usually are, unless something is bothering them.

I disagree with the idea that 'punishment' makes the child a better person in the long run. I wasn't punished in any conventional sense of the word (barring the rare slaps), but I was spoken to every time I did something that was unacceptable. It made an even firmer impression than if I had been sent to my room to 'think about' what I had done - that would be frustrating and puzzling for me as a child. Children, or humans, are born with a different sort of moral sense: it doesn't revolve around 'listen to your elders' or 'what your teacher tells you is right', but being gentle and sensitive to people around them, they aren't 'naughty' but insatiably curious, and they're always asking to be validated. Being harsh to a child like that would make him feel miserable. Why some people think that making him feel miserable is the thing to do is beyond me. I can only see bad things coming from it 'in the long run'. Being that way is in our genes, our species would never have got this far if it hadn't been that curious. I can't express how wrong it is to try to suppress that urge in a young child by saying it's 'wrong', but that seems to be a universal thing too.

Sorry about the rant, but it's sad to see educated people talking like that about a four year old.

[mizk5110]

It's amazing the things that don't communicated to parents. When I was in second grade, I attended a private church school that was on the main street of our town. Now I wasn't the most popluar kid, but I got along pretty well. My classroom was in the front of the building with a huge display window, along with a double door with glass windows (which was always locked). One day half the boys in my class and one of the girls (maybe 5 kids?) got me in front of the big display window and pulled my skirt up over my head. The teacher finally broke it up, and I think their only punishment was to write sentences during recess the rest ofthe week. My parents still don't know about it, and my mother was TEACHING at that school at the time!

So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that you weren't informed. Good on you for making it clear you want to know what happens!

[hmmm]

If this was a case of repeated inappropriate behaviour following warnings, well, I think the school was probably in the right to take further action to make it clear that the boy wasn't doing the right thing. The fact that he reacted to punishment in such an agressive manner suggests that there is something unusual about him, and perhaps the school were not handling things as well as they might, if he was a special case.

There is a difference there. Fascination, fair enough. Go over, give it a poke, get told not to, stop. Fine. Repeatedly go over and touch it... not so fine, and for the sake of the child on the recieving end, action really needed to be taken.

I don't agree. It wasn't unusual behaviour. I've interacted with other kids too when I was young, and I've never needed adult intervention just because some kid was poking my hair. If it got aggressive, yes, I would call my mom, but anything less would be something between me and the kid.
Come on, even adults look at hairdos and want to see how they're done. If the person wearing them is a friend they might even ask them to let it down. Is it really so odd that a four year old does it?

If I was a sensitive child dying to play with the bun (having not fully understood that it wasn't a toy), I would react in exactly the same way as the boy did. The school is at fault, yes, in more ways than one, but I object to the boy being called an attacker and not normal.

[Merlin]

Lets not get too overwrought about this shall we, and avoid words like 'attacked'?

At the end of the day, as every parent knows, kids push, shove, pull, kick, shout, scream, and pretty much everything else at each other. If we were writing some poncy article for the sociology press then perhaps we might describe kid a pulling kid b's pigtails in terms like attacking and assaulting, but we all know as parents that it's not, it's just how kids carry on. EVERY sane parent and childcare worker knows what is within normal and acceptable parameters for kids of various ages. I've got boys, do I want to know about every time somebody pushes them over in the playground? Not really. Do I want to know about every time somebody pushes them over in the playground? Nope. I do want to know if one particular kids is always doing it or or if my son is always doing it to another kids because we're moving from normal kid stuff into bullying.

At the end of the day one boy messed up one girl's hair, the care worker managed it in a manner which seemed to her, at the time, to be a workable solution. I'm guessing loads of kids come home from nursery with hair which is unravelled or messy or whatever as a result of just playing with the other kids - few hairstyles will, I imagine, withstand being part of a group of half a dozen pre-schoolers rolling around on the floor. When my sons were in nursery I know I saw the staff re-doing ponytails or pigtails which had just come undone during play.

Hair gets messed up, clothes get torn, things get lost, kids get injuries - within limits it's just part of being a kid really.

[florenonite]

I'm sorry about what happened to your daughter, suicides eve. IMO, the teacher should have written a quick note explaining why the hair had been taken down and the bobby pins should have been returned. I get that the assistant wasn't thinking (it was probably his/her first stressful moment there and he/she was too busy panicking), but I don't quite see how you throw out someone else's property accidentally. Right now I'm sitting in my boyfriend's flat, which is a tip, and I want to tidy it but I don't know where to put anything and don't want to accidentally throw out something that I think is rubbish which isn't.

As for your daughter's hair being a mess when you picked her up, was she wearing any hair elastics when you sent her to school? If so, I would have expected her hair to have been left in the base ponytail for the style. If not, I can understand why her hair might have been a mess. The average person's knowledge of hair styling extends to ponytails and English braids. Put pins in the picture and if they've got a child who does ballet they can do a bun with a hairnet and hairspray, if not they're probably clueless. Yes, us LHCers can pull five thousand styles out of the air when faced with a handful of bobby pins, but the teacher's probably not an LHCer ;)



Bottom line:There is no reason for anyone else but you and your child to handle any part of your child's body.

I think this and the comments about the young boy assaulting the OP's daughter are a bit excessive. Would you complain if your child's teacher fastened up his or her jacket to go outside in the winter? In this situation I think the OP's daughter was a bit distressed by her hair being taken down, but I think that was a failure of communication, not a problem with who took it down. The image I got from reading the post was that they quickly took the hair out to avoid any further incidents and didn't explain to the OP's daughter why they were doing it.

As for calling it assault, I agree with Fractalsofhair that it's just normal boy or child behaviour. I've had university-age boys pull my hairsticks out before, partly because they think it's funny to see how much it irritates me and partly because they're fascinated that I can hold my hair up with one stick. The wee boy was probably fascinated by the hairstyle and that was why he was poking at it. IMO it's only assault if it's done with design to harm, and this boy, as far as I could tell, was not trying to be harmful but was merely curious.


I agree with this, thank you for pointing this out Fractalsofhair.
On the other hand, I don't excuse impulsive and uncontrolled behavior in anyone regardless of gender. Tearing apart a girl's hair is naughty - you go to the naughty ROOM, not the naughty chair from whence you can get up and have at it in a split second. That's where the teacher made the mistake: not removing the boy from the scene until he calms down. But once the damage was done, you dont brush it off as if it was no big deal. I get it, noone died, but at least let the mother know that elaborate updos and little boys don't mix well.

While I agree in principle that the child should leave the room, perhaps they have a policy of children being supervised at all times, and there was nowhere he could go and still be supervised. If it was in a school, the only other place to go would likely be the hallway, and that might not be feasible because he'd probably run away :p

[Milui Elenath]

The school was most definitely wrong for not communicating to the OP as for the little boy I don't think we can speculate as to whether the behaviour was a fascination or a deliberate harm and it doesn't matter ,what matters is whether or not the OP's daughter felt threatened by it. It can still scare children when other children are only fascinated and it seems like these children are only 4 or 5 they still require a lot of guidance in appropriate behaviour.

We also don't know whether this is a repeating issue for the boy child, whether the child is diagnosed with a social delay or whether he has behavioural problems.

However I'm assuming if the parents were called that it was not a one off.

The issue I have is that teachers have a duty of care that they failed in. - the OP and her daughter have every right to expect that they will be upheld. By removing the child's hairstyle - which seems to have upset her - they have infringed on the childs rights. Whilst there might have been good intentions you can't take one childs hair down because another is poking her. It unfair to the child who is simply minding her own business.

I can't say whether ultimately they dealt with the boy child fairly but I do think sending a 4 or 5 yr old child out of the room without supervision is ludricous. You simply can't do that!

If they had a teacher to spare they might have been best to remove him but not simply because he was 'naughty' - isolating a child from their peers is not going to help acceptable social skills develop. I would expect a child to be removed only if they were a danger to other children and could not be managed by the teacher.

I think the OP has done the right thing - those teachers now know to inform her and are unlikely to allow anything further to happen. It always best to let them know you are watching and you care - take it from a childcare teacher who works with other childcare teachers - sadly some people require a little extra incentive to do their job.

[Fiferstone]

he kept leaving his table to poke at it.<snip> The teacher and her assistance had place him in the time out chair because they have a no touch policy in class. Well something happen and he jumped up from the chair and started yanking seriously yankin at her hair and the pins. He was quickly pulled off her her but the damage was done. The boys mother was called in an he was picked up from school. <snip>
My main concern now is this child who obviously has some kind of issues. If something so simple as that had sent him off into a fit.. should he really be in class with other kids? So far my daughter has not had any more probblems from him.

Several things jump out at me: 1. The boy was told his behavior was not acceptable. 2. He persisted in the behavior to the point where he was put in time out (presumably for 4 minutes, and I HOPE that the reason for being put in time out was explained to him at a level that he could understand - "You were told not to poke [girl's name], you kept poking her, and now you will sit in time out for 4 minutes." 3. He not only continued the behavior, but left time out and escalated the behavior to the point where it could be classed (legally) as assault and the school felt it necessary to remove him from the class. 4. The OP wasn't informed what happened 5. Her child was clearly upset when the OP came to pick her up that day, and there was no explanation from any adult on the scene, who could explain to the OP why her daughter was upset and why her daughter's hair was not in the style she had arranged it in.

As the parent of a now-12-year-old boy, I know that boys can be more physical and agressive, but this was way out of bounds. The boy has issues (the teacher admitted she has difficulty controlling his behavior to the OP) and I read the behavior as an attempt to gain attention, regardless of the fact that his means of getting attention were frightening and hurtful to the girl. It's not unreasonable to expect a 4-year old boy to stop poking another child when he is told told to stop. That's an entirely reasonable expectation. If you cannot gently guide children to learn to modulate their behavior for themselves, then it becomes impossible to teach groups of children, full stop. To defuse his behavior I'd try separating him from the child whom he's interacting with, and focusing the attention on the little girl who had her hair pulled FIRST, making certain he has not injured her, and soothing her (because clearly she was frightened). He gets NO attention, no reinforcement for this assaultive behavior (I would have had the assistant sit him back down in the time out chair, tell him your 4 minutes starts over, with no other interaction). I fear that by sending him home, the school gave him exactly what he really wanted: to go home and be with his mother. He may simply be too immature for a group day care situation, and may need more 1:1 interaction with a sole caregiver. I don't envy his parents and I hope they are getting some assistance to help him to learn how to modulate his own behavior. It's a skill everyone must learn.

[Igor]

What's wrong with you people? I feel bad for that little boy... I can picture any of my brothers or little boys I know being fascinated with her hairdo. The school was WRONG to punish him for being fascinated with it. For heaven's sake, he's four years old, and a normal curious child! I completely understand the way he acted - he wouldn't have done it if he hadn't been punished.

Being fascinated with it is fine. Touching, when it’s the school policy that touching isn’t allowed, is not. Tucking on hair (or any property or body part for that matter) is not

Any boy (Or person for that matter) needs to learn this and as soon as possible

“He is just a little boy” or “he is just fascinated” is no excuse and should not be tolerated for breaking simple rules that applies to us all

[Lamb]

While I agree in principle that the child should leave the room, perhaps they have a policy of children being supervised at all times, and there was nowhere he could go and still be supervised. If it was in a school, the only other place to go would likely be the hallway, and that might not be feasible because he'd probably run away :p
Oh I didn't mean he should have been sent out to wait in the corridor by himself. But sending him to a different schoolroom for a few minutes would have been appropriate.

I agree with hmm and Merlin, using words like "assault" and "attack" are over the top here. OTOH, the word "yanking" indicates more than a little boy satisfying his innocent curiosity about the hairdo. :hmm: He was told not to do something to another child's hair. He gets frustrated and takes out his frustration on the girl, causing her pain. That's not normal boy behavior, or even if it is natural it should not be tolerated.

[Themyst]

Oh I didn't mean he should have been sent out to wait in the corridor by himself. But sending him to a different schoolroom for a few minutes would have been appropriate.

I agree with hmm and Merlin, using words like "assault" and "attack" are over the top here. OTOH, the word "yanking" indicates more than a little boy satisfying his innocent curiosity about the hairdo. :hmm: He was told not to do something to another child's hair. He gets frustrated and takes out his frustration on the girl, causing her pain. That's not normal boy behavior, or even if it is natural it should not be tolerated.

I agree. But then, I also think that a 'no touch policy' for a group of four-year-olds is utterly ridiculous. I was under the impression that either something else happened or he was actually hurting her and not caring (indicating a type of retardation, perhaps?) I really do hope this was not the case of a typical little boy having fun and just goofing around a little bit. Public educators have been known to go too far with their asinine 'policies'.

[angelthadiva]

Being fascinated with it is fine. Touching, when it’s the school policy that touching isn’t allowed, is not. Tucking on hair (or any property or body part for that matter) is not

Any boy (Or person for that matter) needs to learn this and as soon as possible

“He is just a little boy” or “he is just fascinated” is no excuse and should not be tolerated for breaking simple rules that applies to us all

This! :thumbsup:

DD7 has TBL hair which I constantly experiment with. By trial and error, I have discovered which styles stand the test of time. I don't send her to school with any hair toys that I don't mind losing. She has a Ficcare, but she does not wear it outside of my supervision. She did once at my in-laws and it took days for them to relocate it.

As to school, she's currently in 2nd grade, but from pre-school on I've had strict rules with her and her hair. She's not allowed to take her hair down (she used to do this from time to time) and she's not allowed to let other people play in her hair either. This has been a hard one to enforce because people love to play with her hair. My thought behind that was I don't want other people using their combs/brushes etc on her hair.

We've had a couple lice outbreaks I've had to deal with and I don't wish that on anyone. I think she had 3 in Kindergarten one in 1st grade and so far none this year. What sucks is that I discovered it in her hair before it was discovered in her classmates. I'm assuming she got it from them because their infestation was more progressed than DD. The classmates would return before I sent DD back and would re-infest the class :mad:

Since your DD was virtually attacked by this classmate; you should have been notified. I can see why you weren't though; they probably didn't want it getting out that they lost control of the boy/class. Not making excuses or anything just explaining. I'm glad you have your expectations spelled out.

When DD was younger I had a care provider that took my expectations as suggestions after repeated attempts to resolve this I finally pulled DD. The gal was not working for free; I was paying her; therefore she should do what I want.

[suicides_eve]

Thank you all for your support and thoughts on this...

I did want to clarify one thing as it seems people are unclear on it.. The no touch policy.
the policy isn't so much saying you can't bump into some one or give hand shakes,
it is in place so kids learn to respect boundaries or others "bubble space".
No touch goes toward any unwanted physical contact. In this case leaving his table to walk across the class room to poke at my daughters hair several times was clearly an seen as unwanted contact.

Obviously, most of us don't like people breathing down our necks while waiting in line or having random people grab you on the arm to get your attention and i think the No touch policy is a way to teach the kids about this types of things.

I hope this kinda cleared things up a bit.

[above_rubies]

Thank you all for your support and thoughts on this...

I did want to clarify one thing as it seems people are unclear on it.. The no touch policy.
the policy isn't so much saying you can't bump into some one or give hand shakes,
it is in place so kids learn to respect boundaries or others "bubble space".
No touch goes toward any unwanted physical contact. In this case leaving his table to walk across the class room to poke at my daughters hair several times was clearly an seen as unwanted contact.

Obviously, most of us don't like people breathing down our necks while waiting in line or having random people grab you on the arm to get your attention and i think the No touch policy is a way to teach the kids about this types of things.

I hope this kinda cleared things up a bit.

Makes sense to me. I don't think the boy is a monster. However, even though he may just be curious about her hair he should not be allowed to poke it and yank it. That is definitely unwanted touching and it was right that he was punished.

Put yourself in the girl's shoes. If you were sitting there minding your own business would you want some guy to come over to you and start poking your hair? Would you want him to start yanking on it after he was asked to stop? 4 years old is a perfect time to learn that this behavior isn't acceptable.

ETA: That last section is directed to those who may feel sorry for the boy in this situation. I tend to feel more sorry for the person who was hurt than the person who was doing the hurting.

[mizk5110]

Apparently there is a boy in her pre K class at public school who is very umm not controlled. The teacher was explaining some of his odd behaviors to me and she constanly has problems with him.

Since this is the case, I don't blame the teacher one bit for placing him in time out and eventually sending him home. Though if this is the case, perhaps the teacher should be speaking with the principal about having this child removed from her class altogether? In any case, this was obviously NOT an isolated event with this child.

[GlennaGirl]

Come on, even adults look at hairdos and want to see how they're done.

Does anyone remember hootietoot (I think it was hootie, anyway...was that you, girlie?) saying her sock bun was poked "in the hole" repeatedly by adult coworkers?

No, "obsessive" behavior is not unnatural when a big, huge, ridiculous deal is made over something (like "No touch policy...you horrid little autistic ADHD attacker! Go away from everyone and sit in a chair because you dared to touch someone's hair with your finger")...in fact, just the opposite; it causes more interest because the object is now "forbidden". It makes the child want to know why it's forbidden.


Candy is forbidden too. So is going down the slide chin-first. And peeking at the Christmas presents in the closet, and taking a cookie from the jar without asking. But those things are fun and wonderful. Maybe there's more to this hairdo than meets the eye...let's go investigate and see...and if they won't let me...I'd better do it FAST and just jump for it, because I'm four years old, I'm curious and these adults are acting like the fact that I touched someone means I should be away from the public in general (as reinforced by sitting me down in a chair away from everyone for it). So I just know this is my very last chance, maybe ever, of touching anyone's hair and finding out what the fascinating forbidden thing is.

Why do you think so many adults are messed up about sex? Because it's "bad" and it's "no no" and it's "don't touch" for so many years. (ETA: that's just one example; I'm not equating this boy's actions with s*x, certainly.)

Thank you SO MUCH, hmmm, for standing up for this little boy's actions. I think sometimes our reactions as adults are what make little kids more fascinated with something they otherwise probably would have done once, then forgotten about.

I mean, please. Suggesting respite care or a controlled school for special needs because a kid wanted to grab another kid's hair??

Sorry, but folks, really.

As for the teacher spilling about the boy's "odd" behaviors, I wonder if they're similar to this (very natural) one...and I also wonder about exaggeration, given the fact that these teachers hide things, do inappropriate things (throw away others' belongings, for example), aren't sure how to handle behaviors and admit that they don't have much control over at least this one little boy. That doesn't necessarily mean the boy is "uncontrollable". It could mean they just aren't very good at teaching (which, sorry to say, it sounds like they may not be). The teacher first said she didn't write this up because it was no big deal. Then suddenly, a parent who is loaded for bear and looks like she just might eventually sue is upset and it's "Oh, it was SUCH a big huge deal that we sent the little boy home for it!" Why do I believe neither interpretation? Dollars to donuts the boy was sent home for some other reason and this unreliable, untruthful teacher just pulled something quick out of her you-know to make the parent feel "avenged" or what have you so that she would back off and not complain any more.

Also, do you trust someone who will first lie to you and cover something up, then babble on about information that should be confidential to the boy and his family? The only information the little girl's family had the rights to was what happened to her daughter in regards to the little boy. And BTW, if he's all that bad, why do they cover things up and then, when cornered, babble on inappropriately about the boy's personality traits (as they see them)...yet they keep the boy in the school...if he is repeatedly breaking literal, written policies, how can he still be there and not have been expelled? Why is there no policy on that? Yet he's sooooo bad. Well, folks, which is it?

Something doesn't add up here. It sounds like the teacher, when cornered, freaked a little and (yet again, apparently) didn't know what to do so she went overboard trying to describe this terrible little boy, probably in her own defense ("oh, it's not us, it's HIM...he's just sooooo uncontrollable").

I do agree that the school should have briefly written up and photocopied what had happened and had the parents of each student sign a copy. That's what my son's daycare used to do. The parents are informed, they show that they were by signing the paper, a copy goes in the file; done.

[eadwine]

That boy should be in special care/school. Geez.

[GlennaGirl]

That boy should be in special care/school. Geez.

On a personal note I would ask that people not toss this suggestion around lightly based on one post by a very upset poster, without actually knowing the poster, the girl, the boy or the teachers. My son is in special education and it is not an easy, "toss the child in there because he pulled someone's hair several times" kind of thing.

It is a complete process involving a combined psychiatric/intellectual/behavioral evaluation, which is then approved by the state or county (here in the U.S.), then has very specific follow-ups (known as IEPs), etc. It also involves social services, which means the family being open to and subjected to continuous scrutiny (this is just the way things have to be, I'm not complaining about it, but it is intrusive and uncomfortable and bottom line, a special needs DX in school involves the entire family and usually, a child's full 13 months in primary school).

It is not a quick-fix "that kid pulls people's hair" sort of thing. It is a matter of permanent record, school placement and in many cases, emotional tug-of-war for the parents.

As a personal favor I would ask that people please not use this suggestion so lightly.

[Gulbahar]

Thank you, GlennaGirl!!! I was already steaming silently, but held my tongue because I thought, well .... may be it's just a cultural difference .....

[GlennaGirl]

Thank you, GlennaGirl!!! I was already steaming silently, but held my tongue because I thought, well .... may be it's just a cultural difference .....

You are welcome, sweetheart.

[Merlin]

And children go to special schools for their benefit, not just to make classroom management easier for mainstream teachers.

[GlennaGirl]

And children go to special schools for their benefit, not just to make classroom management easier for mainstream teachers.

THANK YOU, Merlin. Exactly. Special ed isn't a quickie service for teachers who don't know how to control any student who doesn't follow the exact status quo. It's not a babysitting service.

[Rivanariko]

Thank you, Glennagirl.

It drives me crazy when I see people labeling (not officially diagnosing, just labeling) small children with ADD or mild autism. A friend of mine has a son who's in first grade and they've been trying to pin him as ADHD since he started kindergarten. Why? He doesn't like to sit still and be quiet. He gets in trouble a lot and could be considered "uncontrollable". He's six years old. He likes to run around, play, and he's an active kid. He doesn't like to sit still, but at the age of 6, who does? Quite frankly, I wonder about a five year old boy who CAN sit quietly with his hands folded in his lap for hours on end.

I think this is probably a similar situation with this boy. He doesn't need a label. He doesn't need a special class. Yes, children should be being taught about boundaries, which I think was the teacher's intent, and I agree that starting that early is a very good thing. But expecting them to figure it out right away? Kids test boundaries. They push limits. Sometimes it's out in the open, like running over and playing with someone's hair that they think is interesting, sometimes it's sneakier like trying to get another cookie from the cookie jar without mom noticing. In this child's mind, there's probably not a big difference. Does it make it okay that he pulled her hair? No. But saying that he "attacked" her and that he needs to be removed from the classroom because of his "uncontrollable behavior" is silly.

As for not being notified, I have to agree with Merlin. A lot goes on during the day at a pre-school. If the teacher had to notify every parent every time a kid tripped or poked someone else, they'd spend all of their time writing notes to parents. I think that the OP has made it clear that she would like to be notified in the future when incidences like this occur, and hopefully the teacher will respect that request.

I had kids pull my hair all the time through school, but I didn't make a big deal out of it, and neither did anyone else. Worst case scenario, we had to go to the principles office and they had to apologize. That was when we were a little bit older. In kindergarten, I remember we made a game of the boys chasing the girls and the girls chasing the boys during recess. A lot of people got pushed, tripped, and ran into things. It wasn't a big deal, just part of being a kid. The only time my mother was ever notified, to my knowledge, was when I tripped on grave and tore my knee up bad enough to need stitches. Even then, no one was upset (I was at first, but then I was fascinated by the stitches, which I promptly ripped out by trying to run) because it was accepted that that's just what kids do. It's part of growing up.

[Bene]

Thank you, GlennaGirl!!! I was already steaming silently, but held my tongue because I thought, well .... may be it's just a cultural difference .....

Well, I was thinking the special ed thing too :shrug:

Not necessarily in this case (I don't know this kid's issue), but if a child in general is missing those skills that would keep him from disrupting a class, then yeah special ed. Not because the teacher is unable to control them, but because other kids are missing out when the teacher has to take time out to deal with them.

[shadowclaw]

I think some of us here are getting a little too riled up over this thread! Some people are really mad that an uncontrollable little monster tried to maul the OP's daughter, and other people are mad that we are painting this little boy as such. I do think it's a wonderful example of how people react so differently to the same event. However, I think all of us need to calm down a little.

That said, now that I know what really happened in school, I do think the school should have sent you a note, suicides eve. Your daughter was clearly upset over the whole situation, and the little boy was sent home because his actions were so inappropriate. It's not something I think they needed to call you about at work or anything, but a note really should have been sent.

As for the little boy, we shouldn't be judging him on one incident and saying that he should be thrown into a special school, diagnosed with autism, or pumped full of medication. He definitely behaved inappropriately, but the teachers did try to punish him and he was removed from school when he couldn't be controlled. He was taught a lesson about behavior from the teachers (and hopefully at home from his parents), and hopefully in the future he will learn from this and not pull at other people's hair.

I really doubt you can say at this point that he has a mental disorder-- lots of little boys pick on little girls and do things like pull hair, kick, bite, etc. Little boys also act out like this sometimes, too. Maybe his goldfish just died and he doesn't know how to deal with it, so he decided to make a scene at school. You never know. There are plenty of reasons for little kids to behave badly. And they grow and they learn from it.

[Lamb]

Well, I was thinking the special ed thing too :shrug:

Not necessarily in this case (I don't know this kid's issue), but if a child in general is missing those skills that would keep him from disrupting a class, then yeah special ed. Not because the teacher is unable to control them, but because other kids are missing out when the teacher has to take time out to deal with them.
But by when are those skills supposed to be fully formed? Kids develop on their own schedule. That is why we have a number of different kids in classrooms with different levels of maturity, even at high school. They are not peas in a pod. In a pre-K class, such differences should be expected and budgeted for in terms of time and staff.

[Gingevere]

I don't think that this boy necessarily has an actual behavioral disorder or anything, but... if a young child does have a mental or behavioral disorder it needs to be addressed. I should know. Throughout elementary school, my teachers told my mom that I exhibited signs of ADD and that I should get checked out. My doctor took one look at my perfect grades and test scores and dismissed that notion. The only reason I was getting good grades, however, was because teachers were excusing assignments for me because they knew that I knew the material like the back of my hand and considered it unnecessary for me to do the busy work.

So I developed the habit of not getting my work done, which has not served me well since I left elementary school. In middle and high school, teachers aren't so keen on letting assignments go. My grades dropped, and I fell into a severe depression- we're talking real, clinical depression. Those years were hell and very nearly ruined my life. My mom even suggested that I just drop out of high school and get my GED. Luckily, I was able to get a scholarship to a private school that has helped me put my life back together. The depression was dealt with, revealing the true problem. I was diagnosed with mild OCD and severe ADHD, which I experience mentally instead of physically. In other words, my brain is hyperactive, which makes focusing nearly impossible. I'm being treated now and developing better study skills in order to cope with my condition.

All this trouble because I wasn't diagnosed properly in first grade. The moral of the story is that you can't just ignore problems like this and hope they'll go away. But, of course, caution should be exercised as well, especially given that ADD/ADHD are the most over-diagnosed disorders in the US.

[Bene]

But by when are those skills supposed to be fully formed? Kids develop on their own schedule. That is why we have a number of different kids in classrooms with different levels of maturity, even at high school. They are not peas in a pod. In a pre-K class, such differences should be expected and budgeted for in terms of time and staff.


I understand that kids don't develop at the same speed. I just feel bad for the other kids who are missing out because of one. In this case (I'm so outing myself as a trekkie here :o) the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Also, I think those skills should be learned before they get to school age. I think too much responsibility is handed over to teachers. Their job isn't to discipline or raise children, that's the parents' job.

[Lamb]

Also, I think those skills should be learned before they get to school age.
The boy is 4. That's early enough to learn social skills, and he is learning those now. The above incident is one instance of his learning curve.He has 2-3 more years before elementary school (I don't consider pre-K "school" in the conventional sense of the term, just as I wouldn't consider toddlers in daycare as being "in school".)

[GlennaGirl]

But by when are those skills supposed to be fully formed? Kids develop on their own schedule. That is why we have a number of different kids in classrooms with different levels of maturity, even at high school. They are not peas in a pod. In a pre-K class, such differences should be expected and budgeted for in terms of time and staff.

Exactly. If "poorly developed impulse control" is cause for expulsion, high schools across the nation are about to empty out rapidly. :rolleyes:

[GlennaGirl]

I understand that kids don't develop at the same speed. I just feel bad for the other kids who are missing out because of one. In this case (I'm so outing myself as a trekkie here :o) the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

The child did not set off a bomb in the teacher's lounge. :rolleyes: He pulled someone's hair. Exactly how much academia do you believe these four-year-olds suffered and missed out on due to the disruption? I hope this wasn't the segment where they were teaching physics, eh?

When school-age children are physical with one another, they, too, are removed; typically to the principal's office. Or should they too be removed entirely from the school, to a special facility for the remainder of their education? (I'm not talking suspension here, but then what I'm hearing isn't suspension either, but rather, that the little boy is developmentally delayed, dangerous, scary and should go to a special facility.) Say if a child pulls another's hair or pushes another child? Expulsion and special ed testing time? NOBODY would stay in "regular" ed if these criteria were accommodated.

Besides which, he was removed from the area. (Supposedly. I mean according to the OP's account, the teacher changed horses midstream in her explanation, from how it was no big deal to how it was so huge and anti-policy that the child was removed from the class for the day.)

As for the part about it not being the teacher's responsibility to discipline his or her students, yes, it surely is. In fact, during school hours the school typically acts as the children's guardian, usually (up to and including taking the child to the emergency room, per the signed sheets parents are required to send home at the beginning of the school year granting permission for various acts).

Saying it's a parent's job to discipline a child for something at school doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Does it work in reverse, then? If a child gets bad grades and won't do his homework, should the parent say, "This is the school's job; I am not a teacher" and just send the child in to school with incomplete homework?

Yes, while the child is in school, the school is expected to take certain disciplinary measures which are typically outlined in the school's guidebook, available to any parent.

[Bene]

The boy is 4. That's early enough to learn social skills, and he is learning those now. The above incident is one instance of his learning curve.He has 2-3 more years before elementary school (I don't consider pre-K "school" in the conventional sense of the term, just as I wouldn't consider toddlers in daycare as being "in school".)


I suppose I'm looking at this from personal experience. I was in daycare at the age of 2 and 8 months. I knew even then (yes, I do remember that far back), and most of the other kids knew that there's indoor and outdoor behavior. Those skills need to be learned at home. For example, many daycares here don't take kids unless they've been potty trained.

Even if it's not technically "school" daycares do spend time to teach the alphabet and counting. I'd be ticked off if I sent my kid to daycare and they didn't learn anything because someone else failed to teach their child how to behave.

[Bene]

The child did not set off a bomb in the teacher's lounge. :rolleyes: He pulled someone's hair. Exactly how much academia do you believe these four-year-olds suffered and missed out on due to the disruption? I hope this wasn't the segment where they were teaching physics, eh?

When school-age children are physical with one another, they, too, are removed; typically to the principal's office. Or should they too be removed entirely from the school? Say if a child pulls another's hair or pushes another child? Expulsion and special ed testing time? NOBODY would stay in "regular" ed if these criteria were accommodated.

Besides which, he was removed from the area. (Supposedly. I mean according to the OP's account, the teacher changed horses midstream in her explanation, from how it was no big deal to how it was so huge and anti-policy that the child was removed from the class for the day.)

As for the part about it not being the teacher's responsibility to discipline his or her students, yes, it surely is. In fact, during school hours the school typically acts as the children's guardian, usually (up to and including taking the child to the emergency room, per the signed sheets parents are required to send home at the beginning of the school year granting permission for various acts).

Saying it's a parent's job to discipline a child for something at school doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Does it work in reverse, then? If a child gets bad grades and won't do his homework, should the parent say, "This is the school's job; I am not a teacher" and just send the child in to school with incomplete homework?

Yes, while the child is in school, the school is expected to take certain disciplinary measures which are typically outlined in the school's guidebook, available to any parent.

I wasn't speaking of THIS child, which I stated earlier. I was giving a reason why someone would think "ok, that kid needs to be somewhere else"

And no, it doesn't work in reverse. ALL the responsibility falls on the parent. Teaching and discipline takes place at home. If a kid continues to show up with incomplete homework, that's the parent being a failure as a parent.


At school, the teacher's main responsibility is to teach.

[GlennaGirl]

Even if it's not technically "school" daycares do spend time to teach the alphabet and counting. I'd be ticked off if I sent my kid to daycare and they didn't learn anything because someone else failed to teach their child how to behave.

Isn't this an assumption on your part...that the kids were learning something at the moment, and that the entire segment was destroyed by the interruption? How do you know either of those things happened? Do you truly believe that disruptions during school time mean the other children just don't learn? Again, disruptions happen in every grade of school. I don't see the schools begging the state to re-test on the quarterlies because on June 9, some kid pulled another kid's hair and the class stopped for 90 seconds while his mother was called.

I think these excuses for not wanting "non-average" kids in the class are getting to be a little over the top. I'm sorry, but I do.

[GlennaGirl]

I wasn't speaking of THIS child, which I stated earlier. I was giving a reason why someone would think "ok, that kid needs to be somewhere else"

And no, it doesn't work in reverse. ALL the responsibility falls on the parent. Teaching and discipline takes place at home. If a kid continues to show up with incomplete homework, that's the parent being a failure as a parent.


At school, the teacher's main responsibility is to teach.

No, ALL of the responsibility for maintaining a calm classroom and performing discipline for actions within the classroom does not fall on the parent; period. Not legally; not logistically; not realistically. Not in any way. If you're unsure about this, you can feel free to look up your own school district's codes and rules (for public school, they will be immediately accessible to you if you are a parent; that too is the law). You will see disciplinary actions by the school outlined right then and there, in black and white. After a certain documented amount of certain types of rules are broken by the student, he or she is then put on suspension (or for something truly horrendous/dangerous, expulsion).

If parents were solely responsible for discipline for negative actions while in school, the teachers would be pretty much helpless, parents would be called 50 times a day and the wilier kids would know they had plenty of time between the action and the parent hauling herself out of work and driving 1/2 hour to the school to make up some story and confuse the issue and figure out how to worm out of it. If teachers had no right to (and responsibility for) disciplinary actions during class time, it would be absolute pandemonium.

[Lamb]

Okay, I never thought one day I'd stand up for my own schoolyard bullies, but here it goes.
From the age of 10 (more than twice the little girl's age) I was bullied and picked on a lot at my (new) school. One day, a boy my own age spat in my face in the schoolyard during recess. It was unprovoked and fully intentional on his part. He was old enough to know better, right? He attacked and assaulted me, right?
A few years (4) on, the same boy is a successful high school student and we are actually getting on pretty well. A few more years on, he is a paramedic and a great guy to be around.

I dread to think what would have become of him had he been sent to some special needs school.

ETA: I see the last sentence could be seen as disrespectful. I do not look down at special needs ed, but it would have been disastreous for that kid (given what special needs ed in my country looked like at the time... :tmi:)

[GlennaGirl]

ETA: I see the last sentence could be seen as disrespectful. I do not look down at special needs ed, but it would have been disastreous for that kid (given what special needs ed in my country looked like at the time... :tmi:)

I knew what you meant, sweetie, not to worry. I agree that for children who shouldn't be in special education, things have to be pretty hairy. The child would always feel out of place, would feel nobody listened to him/her or believed that he/she had certain capabilities, etc. I mean I can see what you're getting at here and it's true, from either angle: special needs never being recognized and a child being forced through the standard ed system never feeling "good enough," or a child crying out "but I'm like everybody else...give me a chance" and nobody listening.

[Flaxen]

Since the original topic of this thread has been updated, let's call it case closed. :thumbsup: