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Alun
September 4th, 2009, 02:06 AM
Is it just me, or is there an increase in the number of threads with titles addressed to "women" or "ladies"? About 10% of our members are male, although it's hard to give an exact number when some people list their gender as "cheese"! When posts appear not to be speaking to our gender, we don't always post a response. I know I don't.

Of course, I'm not talking about threads that really are gender specific, although strangely no-one finds it necessary to specify females when they are asking for replies from members who are currently pregnant, for example. There obviously are some gender specific topics, but so often lately I see posts that talk about something gender neutral, and yes, hair is gender neutral, but have a title that begins with something like "Ladies, have you ever ...?" or that kind of thing. I am not singling out any specific thread. There are a few of them.

So, please, kindly knock it off.

LittleOrca
September 4th, 2009, 02:40 AM
I hope I didn't offend you with my post where I had the genders for my friend's problem (who is male) switched around to make it easier for the women here to identify with him and understand what he was going through. I thought about adding a parenthesis with a note acknowledging the guys on here, but since I figured more women would see it that it would make sense to change things around.

:flower:

AutumnLeaves
September 4th, 2009, 02:42 AM
Actually, Alun, I've often thought the same thing. Good point!

Heidi_234
September 4th, 2009, 02:45 AM
I've read that in languages where the plural form of a verb is still changed according to the gender there's a problem is one should address in male or female form when in group he or she targets women outnumber men. The logical thing is address them as women, but it tends to sound 'wrong' in a way.

When I first started listening to spoken English in movies I was surprised to hear a girl addressing her girl friends "hey guys listen...". Seems okay the other way, isn't it?

Despite the noticeable male presence in the forums, I doubt every tenth member here is a male. But it's not the point. My point is, sometimes it's still awkward, even in English, to address a mixed group of people , and the female presence here is still more dominant. I'm sure a member who writes "Hey ladies" doesn't mean to exclude you and definitely not to insult you.

Quixii
September 4th, 2009, 03:07 AM
While I definitely agree with you and don't enjoy the lack of guy-acknowledgement, I agree with the other posters that the issue comes up with if you're trying to address people in general, saying "Hey people" sounds rather odd compared to "Hey guys" or "Hey gals." I agree with Heidi that it's interesting that "Hey guys" to a group of girls is not offensive at all, but the other way around is. I wonder why that is?
But yeah, I don't know if there really is any need to specifically address one gender in threads other than the obviously gendered ones.

hmmm
September 4th, 2009, 03:28 AM
I didn't even know there were so many guys! :P
Don't worry about it, just because females are in the majority doesn't mean you're being sidelined or anything :)

juliaxena
September 4th, 2009, 03:28 AM
I wonder why it is OK to address women as "you guys" too. I never complain about it. I will try to specify there are guys in this forum but I wonder if I should insist on being addressed as a woman or is that just not worth my energy, attention... Nah, I don't think I need to be specifically addressed as a woman, I'm a human being and I'm aware of that first of all.

Calista
September 4th, 2009, 03:36 AM
I think it´s a very good point, Alun. :flowers: One might see the term "guys" as somewhat gender neutral - like "people" (though it isn´t) -, "ladies" definitely is female. :)

Medievalmaniac
September 4th, 2009, 03:56 AM
With a group of mixed people, the gender-neutral standard can still be upheld in English in a variety of ways (for those who are interested):

Hey, All

Hey, Group (or Groupmembers)

Hey, List

Hey, Folks (or Folkmembers)

HTH! :)

bte
September 4th, 2009, 04:02 AM
I've noticed this as an increasing trend, too, and although I don't particularly object to it, I do wonder if it comes as a shock to some posters to find that a reply comes from a male.

"Guys" seems to have moved from being the male counterpart of "dolls" (!) into being a general informal term for "people", so I think it's OK to apply to all on a forum like this one.

rapunzhell13
September 4th, 2009, 04:24 AM
I'm with you on this one, Alun. It annoys me too and I'm not even male.

magpielaura
September 4th, 2009, 04:28 AM
I tend to assume members are female unless their avatar or name is obviously male, since there are more ladies here... I have often done a double take when the wording of a post somewhere indicates someone who I had long assumed was female is in fact male! Since many photos are of the back of heads, and names often gender-neutral I suspect that many of us have had conversations where gender was irrelevant and never picked up on or even concidered which gender the others in a conversation were. As a result I think we underestimate the number of blokes. It takes threads like this sometimes for me to figure out who is who!

(and then most of the worst blabberfingers are female too!)

Konstifik
September 4th, 2009, 04:33 AM
Yes, I definatley agree!
Although, I've heard that sometimes in the army, with the majority of males, the officers still call everyone "Ladies"... :)

WelshLocks
September 4th, 2009, 04:50 AM
This wouldn't be a problem if English had genders.I swear every other language has gender rules and English just kind of stuff everything it can into as many words as possible.

We're not trying to exclude you at all. :) I suppose it is a little rude.If I should post a new thread anytime I'll make it gender neutral. :)

oogie
September 4th, 2009, 04:55 AM
Does Hey ya'll count?

Madame J
September 4th, 2009, 05:34 AM
Does Hey ya'll count?

Heh. It used to irritate my very proper, English Latin professor to no end that I would translate the 2nd person plural as y'all in my homework. But it is a good way to differentiate between the singular and plural.

Little Orca, I just assumed that you were making a point about how we would react with the genders reversed and to show that same kind of judgment in your friend's case. I know a lot of girls that would blame a single guy for sleeping with a married woman, and yet blame the married man when he sleeps with a single woman.

:waving: Hi, boys!

missfortune9335
September 4th, 2009, 05:39 AM
Ahhhh! That started my day out with a laugh Alun, that part about people listing their gender as "cheese" just cracked me up for some reason. But I see your point, it would get annoying. I don't think I've ever started a thread that way but I'll be mindful of it in the future.

longhairedfairy
September 4th, 2009, 05:40 AM
I wonder why it is OK to address women as "you guys" too. I never complain about it.
I do.:pIt's just something that irritates me. Anyway, yes, I have seen people (mostly newbies, I think) say "Hey, girls, what do you..." blah blah blah. That irritates me as well.

longhairedfairy
September 4th, 2009, 05:47 AM
This wouldn't be a problem if English had genders.I swear every other language has gender rules and English just kind of stuff everything it can into as many words as possible.
Yet people still try to eliminate words such as "actress" so that we won't have gender-specific words.:rolleyes: Although I admit that memorizing the masuline and feminine when learning other languages is sometimes difficult (How can a telephone, towel, shoe, etc. have a gender?:p).

Ravenwaves 88
September 4th, 2009, 05:49 AM
I do remember posting a comment or two thanking the ladies. I'll try to include everyone next time. I would never intentionally offend!

Thank you for the reminder.

Lamb
September 4th, 2009, 05:51 AM
Is it just me, or is there an increase in the number of threads with titles addressed to "women" or "ladies"?

Alun, I have just looked at the titles of the threads on p. 1 of the Mane forum, and I didn't see a single one specifically addressed to either gender.
:twocents:

Growing out bangs, man grows longest hair, trims, cuts, daughter's boy-cut, etc. I have also seen Gumball and GlassEyes post on these several times.

So, while I get what you are talking about, honestly I don't think it's as bad as all that. ;) But perhaps your complaint will help people focus on remaining gender neutral more, who knows. ;)

Silver & Gold
September 4th, 2009, 06:28 AM
I have to note your request with just a bit of amusement. Although I understand your reason for the complaint, I cannot resist pointing out that living in a patriarchal society, women are subject to this and worse on a daily basis.

Humans are addressed in the male form always in a patriarchal society. We are not humankind, we are mankind. We are not human, we are men.

Worse yet, when conducting business, be it writing our will, purchasing a car, purchasing insurance . . . whatever it is, the salesman always addresses my husband as if I am not in the room even though he eventually figures out that my husband doesn't handle the business affairs, I do.

So after dealing with a lifetime of being 'invisible' both figuratively and very nearly literally I find it amusing to read your squawk about about it on the board.

I hope you understand that I'm not saying you're wrong or that you don't have a legitimate complaint. I just find it amusing to see the shoe on the other foot. I just hope you take what happens to men here and let it open your eyes when you are out in public towards how these things affect women.

And I will take note of your complaint. If I haven't been careful about how I address gender here before, I will try to be more careful in the future.

RavennaNight
September 4th, 2009, 06:34 AM
Does Hey ya'll count?

Yeah, you beat me to it! :lol: I like "ya'll." It's informal enough to be disarming. It's kinda charming, too. I always imagine that cool southern US accent with it:). And it's gender neutral.

didrash
September 4th, 2009, 06:37 AM
You are so right! In Bulgarian language the word for human is synonimous with man, but not with woman. If you say "human", everybody would assume "man". And when I go to buy a computer or something, tahking my hubby for company, the salespeople start talking and explaining to him...

Alun, you do have a point, though. I have always been careful not to start with "ladies" unless I adress the girls here in particular, but I guess slips of the -- tongue? -- happen...



I have to note your request with just a bit of amusement. Although I understand your reason for the complaint, I cannot resist pointing out that living in a patriarchal society, women are subject to this and worse on a daily basis.

Humans are addressed in the male form always in a patriarchal society. We are not humankind, we are mankind. We are not human, we are men.

Worse yet, when conducting business, be it writing our will, purchasing a car, purchasing insurance . . . whatever it is, the salesman always addresses my husband as if I am not in the room even though he eventually figures out that my husband doesn't handle the business affairs, I do.

So after dealing with a lifetime of being 'invisible' both figuratively and very nearly literally I find it amusing to read your squawk about about it on the board.

I hope you understand that I'm not saying you're wrong or that you don't have a legitimate complaint. I just find it amusing to see the shoe on the other foot. I just hope you take what happens to men here and let it open your eyes when you are out in public towards how these things affect women.

And I will take note of your complaint. If I haven't been careful about how I address gender here before, I will try to be more careful in the future.

halo_tightens
September 4th, 2009, 07:03 AM
Lol... In "real life," I call everyone "dude" or "man," regardless of gender! Oh, and the plural for me is indeed "guys." I feel weird and almost condescending if I address a group of women as "Hey girls..." or Good morning, ladies..." It's all "Hey guys..."

Most of the people I know do the same. No offense is meant or taken by it! So for future notice, when I say "Dude!" or "Hey guys..." it does indeed mean anyone and everyone. :D

ericthegreat
September 4th, 2009, 07:04 AM
As a fellow guy here, I see your point Alun. Unless say a thread title is specifically calling for the advice of other women like on the Friendship board about pregnancy and mothering, I really also feel that posters here from both genders should really try to include everyone in their posts.

I think "Hey everyone." or "Hey ladies and gentlemen." would be the best all including greeting to address everyone here.

UncommonTart
September 4th, 2009, 07:08 AM
Heh. It used to irritate my very proper, English Latin professor to no end that I would translate the 2nd person plural as y'all in my homework. But it is a good way to differentiate between the singular and plural.

Little Orca, I just assumed that you were making a point about how we would react with the genders reversed and to show that same kind of judgment in your friend's case. I know a lot of girls that would blame a single guy for sleeping with a married woman, and yet blame the married man when he sleeps with a single woman.

:waving: Hi, boys!

My somewhat proper Latin teacher always translated the second person plural as "y'all," for that very reason! (Mind you, he never used it in any other sense, and acknowleged its impropriety, but English doesn't really have another word that works as well there, does it?)

Sorry for the brief threadjack, I'll be on topic now:

You know, "gender neutral" or not, I've always slightly resented being addressed as "guys" in a group setting. It's not really something I complain about much (or else I'd never talk about anything else, it being so common), but it does get to me. If there are guys there, fine, but I am not one. I can see where the reverse would really get to the guys here, and I'm sorry if I've participated in that. I'll do my best from now on to address my posts to all. (Except for those that are directed to the ladies only, obviously- Menstrual Cup thread, anyone?)

ericthegreat
September 4th, 2009, 07:22 AM
Well Uncommontart, the intent behind how you address someone is really the key here. When you say "Hey guys." it is understood that it could refer to both a group of men or a group of women or a co-ed group of people. However as you know, addressing a group of males as "Ladies" is clearly intended as an insult to that group of males.

Ehhhh let's all just hold hands and hug! :cheese:

marikamt
September 4th, 2009, 07:44 AM
going forward, I will address everyone as my "fellow hair-peeps".... :D

bte
September 4th, 2009, 07:45 AM
Yet people still try to eliminate words such as "actress" so that we won't have gender-specific words.:rolleyes: Although I admit that memorizing the masuline and feminine when learning other languages is sometimes difficult (How can a telephone, towel, shoe, etc. have a gender?:p).
You've used a telephone and you can ask that question?

Only joking!

ericthegreat
September 4th, 2009, 07:46 AM
I love that idea marikamt!

"Greetings my fellow hair peeps!" Sounds kind of catchy especially on this forum.

SHELIAANN1969
September 4th, 2009, 07:47 AM
I usually say *folks* :D

thankyousir74
September 4th, 2009, 07:51 AM
Well Uncommontart, the intent behind how you address someone is really the key here. When you say "Hey guys." it is understood that it could refer to both a group of men or a group of women or a co-ed group of people. However as you know, addressing a group of males as "Ladies" is clearly intended as an insult to that group of males.

Ehhhh let's all just hold hands and hug! :cheese:
<thread hijack>

Not to pick on you, Eric, but why is that?

Why is "guys" when directed at females neutral and hunky dory, yet "ladies" directed at males becomes a clear insult?

As an attendant on many of the gender-oriented threads I still have trouble understanding this. It's just kind of hard to accept that IRL many people think of women as "weak". I mean I'll admit that typically most women do not have the same amount of muscle mass, but is that really all that it boils down to in society?

</thread hijack>

ETA: This isn't all directed specifically at you, Eric, but more just some thoughts that were floating around :lol:

Silver & Gold
September 4th, 2009, 07:57 AM
Well Uncommontart, the intent behind how you address someone is really the key here. When you say "Hey guys." it is understood that it could refer to both a group of men or a group of women or a co-ed group of people. However as you know, addressing a group of males as "Ladies" is clearly intended as an insult to that group of males.

Ehhhh let's all just hold hands and hug! :cheese:


<thread hijack>

Not to pick on you, Eric, but why is that?

Why is "guys" when directed at females neutral and hunky dory, yet "ladies" directed at males becomes a clear insult?

As an attendant on many of the gender-oriented threads I still have trouble understanding this. It's just kind of hard to accept that IRL many people think of women as "weak". I mean I'll admit that typically most women do not have the same amount of muscle mass, but is that really all that it boils down to in society?

</thread hijack>

Ha! I caught that too. "Hey Guys" is clearly gender neutral? and yet "Hey Gals" is an insult to men. Too funny! And even more so because his statement makes my point. Women shouldn't be insulted to be grouped as males and yet, shoe on the other foot . . .

In some ways this really does matter and in others it is merely semantics. But it is an interesting conversation.

hmmm
September 4th, 2009, 08:13 AM
Psh, why shouldn't we call them ladies? They have the hair to qualify...

Kidding, kidding.

ericthegreat
September 4th, 2009, 08:15 AM
Psh, why shouldn't we call them ladies? They have the hair to qualify...

Kidding, kidding.

Careful now. Joking or not, that kind of remark is uncalled for.

thankyousir74
September 4th, 2009, 08:18 AM
Careful now. Joking or not, that kind of remark is uncalled for.

Seconded...

JamieLeigh
September 4th, 2009, 08:23 AM
I don't think I've ever really taken anyone's gender into consideration when posting on the Mane Forum - usually I'm all about the hair, lol, and not worrying about whether I'm talking to a male or female. "People are people, so why should it be....?" ;)

I agree - the Mane Forum is not a place to post gender-specific topics, as hair and hairtyping are not specific to a certain gender. Everyone has hair, everyone has hair issues and there is no difference on this particular board.

I can understand this being an issue on a different topic board, like Health & Body Beautiful or Friendship Board, where the topics actually have a chance of being gender-specific. :shrug:

Tanuki
September 4th, 2009, 08:33 AM
I like Y'all. That IS distinctly gender neutral and it has such a friendly ring to it

Don't y'all think so?

I also like "folks"

hmmm
September 4th, 2009, 08:34 AM
Careful now. Joking or not, that kind of remark is uncalled for.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way. It was meant more in the 'why should it even matter' vein, but it came out all rude-sounding. Sorry.

melrose1985
September 4th, 2009, 08:37 AM
Lol... In "real life," I call everyone "dude" or "man," regardless of gender! Oh, and the plural for me is indeed "guys." I feel weird and almost condescending if I address a group of women as "Hey girls..." or Good morning, ladies..." It's all "Hey guys..."

Most of the people I know do the same. No offense is meant or taken by it! So for future notice, when I say "Dude!" or "Hey guys..." it does indeed mean anyone and everyone. :D

This is the same for me too. I call every one "dude" and a group for me is "guys".

probably of subject, but when i got my full time job two of our male shop workers are from Jamica. I would walk pass them and greet them with "hey guys" or "morning guys" and then ask my boss to talk to me because in their county to say something like that was like calling them gay. I had NO clue!

Tanuki
September 4th, 2009, 08:41 AM
Yeah, gender identity means something strong in some places. I'unno; to me the only thing separating men and women is two letters XD

Thinthondiel
September 4th, 2009, 08:58 AM
This is the same for me too. I call every one "dude" and a group for me is "guys".


Me three... I always say "guys" when I address my friends (in English - my friends and I speak a lot of English to each other even though we're Norwegian), and I say "dude" sometimes as well, but more as an exclamation than actually adressing someone.

ETA: And I agree that it's much more insulting to call guys "ladies" or "girls" than to call girls "guys".
No one says "guys" to a group of girls with the intent to insult them. By convention, "guys" has become close to a gender-neutral word.

loyaboya
September 4th, 2009, 08:59 AM
Ha! I caught that too. "Hey Guys" is clearly gender neutral? and yet "Hey Gals" is an insult to men. Too funny! And even more so because his statement makes my point. Women shouldn't be insulted to be grouped as males and yet, shoe on the other foot . . .

In some ways this really does matter and in others it is merely semantics. But it is an interesting conversation.

So true! Even the title is interesting. It says "We're not all girls". Uh, actually it seems that most of the females on this board are adults. I don't know the actual age split but there seem to be very few 'girls'.

But as you said, in some ways it matters, in some ways it's just semantics. Interesting though!

trolleypup
September 4th, 2009, 09:12 AM
Female addressing has always occurred here...I don't get the feeling that it is much changed...in fact, I think that people may be a bit more aware of the presence of males[2] than they used to be.

Personally, it just doesn't bother me that much. It doesn't bother me out in public either, so long as the intent is benign...I guess that is really the key to me...if someone isn't being intentionally offensive, I'm not going to take it that way, even if the actual words may not be the best inclusive choices. Either it is a mistake or something in their background is prompting their usage. Depending on the situation, I can let it go, or use it as an opportunity for discreet education.

Diversity and taking things in the best possible way...makes life a lot easier.

And...

I use 'Folks', or 'You All'...I have way too much history of harassment for my background[1] to use 'Y'all'.

ETA: In addressing groups, I prefer that the most appropriate and/or respectful terms be used...best of all is to use what the group itself prefers.

[1] Growing up in the Deep South in the 70s was miserable.

[2] Well, yes I am, even though my profile still says 'N/A'

Heidi_234
September 4th, 2009, 09:15 AM
ETA: And I agree that it's much more insulting to call guys "ladies" or "girls" than to call girls "guys".

It's not/less insulting because you're used to that. I was somewhat puzzled to learn that little piece of spoken English.

Teakafrog
September 4th, 2009, 09:23 AM
Oy. Somebody's always got to be offended by something. I mean in every sector of society. Why can't people just get over it? Always gotta be somebody get their panties in a bunch. (or was that too feminine of an expression???)

And I find it funny that the same dudes who said it was absolutely FINE to call women 'guys' find it offensive if someone refers to them in the feminine. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander? This thread is hilarious.

Fractalsofhair
September 4th, 2009, 09:24 AM
Hmmm, I have noticed this as well. Since English really doesn't have a gender neutral plural word to describe people(other than people), the general rule of thumb is to say whatever group most people are, or revert to masculine if it is equally split. Most people on here are female(or cheese!) and I haven't noticed a thread that says "Ladies only" or some such thing, so it's just referring to people in general.

Oddly enough, the word "girl" is mildly offensive/inaccurate to describe a post pubescent woman, IMO. So I certainly hope not all people on here are "girls" in any sense of the word(Though I'm not personally offended, just a thought.). English is a tricky language with the genders.

Beldaran
September 4th, 2009, 09:24 AM
I either start posts with something like "Has anyone noticed this..?" or I just jump right in as in "So I just took my cat to the vet.."

To me, it's a message board, not an e-mail or a letter. I don't feel the need to have a greeting, introduction, letter body, closing, salutation and sign it with my name. So I don't see a need to say "Hey everyone, I was wondering.." because if everyone can read it, one would think you're addressing everyone. Also, on "women specific" topics, I personally don't see a need to specify that you're only talking to women, because people who don't have an answer (men or women) likely won't answer and you wouldn't want to exclude any males who may know something about the topic.

Being addressed in a group as "hey guys" doesn't bother me, but I'd encourage people here who think it's 100% fine to address women as "guys" but it's obviously an insult to address males as "ladies" to think about why that is.

oogie
September 4th, 2009, 09:28 AM
Oy. Somebody's always got to be offended by something. I mean in every sector of society. Why can't people just get over it? Always gotta be somebody get their panties in a bunch. (or was that too feminine of an expression???)

And I find it funny that the same dudes who said it was absolutely FINE to call women 'guys' find it offensive if someone refers to them in the feminine. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander? This thread is hilarious.

Pardon me for saying so but if we were in their shoes we'd probably feel the same way. We wouldnt' want to read all about how to trip nose hair and such when we wouldn't want to. But playing nice and being sensative to each other is part of what makes LHC a different kind of site. kwim? :flower:

Ain't that right ya'll?

Dvips
September 4th, 2009, 09:29 AM
Just to clarify: "guys" as gender-neutral is a culture-specific thing. It is not acceptable in general to use "guys" for females in English, nor in all parts of the USA. It depends on one's culture. :shrug:

That being said, it is not a bad thing for members to be aware of how certain thread titles as the OP mentions affects other members.

(And, for the record, I believe that Alun is quite aware of the issues that women deal with in RL and doesn't need the lesson of "the other shoe" here. Still some people may not be aware of it, so it is always interesting to have such conversations as these.)

EvaSimone
September 4th, 2009, 09:36 AM
Bravo Alun! Totally agree.

:agree:

Lady Godiva
September 4th, 2009, 10:03 AM
Yeah, unless something is specifically a female or male subject, there's little reason to specify an audience based on sex. I'm also aware of the different standard of acceptance where "guys" for women v. "ladies" for men is concerned. I've never liked that dichotomy.

Equal counterparts
Women and Men.
Ladies and Gentlemen.
Guys and Gals.
Chicks and Cats.
Girls and Boys.

English has many gender-neutral terms for the plural, as have been suggested already in this thread. It's more difficult to find them in the singular.

thankyousir74
September 4th, 2009, 10:09 AM
Chicks and Cats.


There's also Chicks and Dudes :D

Lamb
September 4th, 2009, 10:09 AM
After having gone back 3 pages on the Mane Board, I'm still a bit puzzled. I haven't seen a single thread title (or introductory line) addressing "ladies" or female members by any name.
:shrug:
Alun, perhaps it would be more helpful if you could refer to a specific thread title that has inspired you to start this thread?

ETA: just ran a search for thread titles on the Mane Board containing the word "ladies". I found six (6) altogether (no date limit). Just wondering whether it would be worth while searching for thread titles with "girls", "gals", etc. But I think not.

eadwine
September 4th, 2009, 10:15 AM
Eh.. panties in a twist comes to mind, but you're a guy so that can't be it. ;)

Honestly.. lighten up. The majority here IS female, things WILL be said like "gals, girls" now and in the future.

Ask yourself: How important is this in your life? Will you worry about it a year from now?

It can't be knocked off either, as new members will come along who have never seen this post to begin with, and they will post the same thing over and over again.

Just let it go, much better for the nerves and bp and all :)

Nightshade
September 4th, 2009, 10:17 AM
I solve it in the Order of the Long Haired Knights thread by calling everyone, "Goodly Knights", but that's not too helpful elsewhere :lol:

halo_tightens
September 4th, 2009, 10:30 AM
probably of subject, but when i got my full time job two of our male shop workers are from Jamica. I would walk pass them and greet them with "hey guys" or "morning guys" and then ask my boss to talk to me because in their county to say something like that was like calling them gay. I had NO clue!

I made a similar cultural mistake... I went to lunch with a co-worker from Jamaica, and we ran into some friends of mine. I introduced them, saying, "This is my buddy M, from work..."

He explained later that in Jamaica, "buddy" is a slang word used to refer to the male genitalia!! That explains why he started to crack up at the restaurant...:o

(sorry for more off-topic-ness)

SimplyViki
September 4th, 2009, 10:32 AM
I made a similar cultural mistake... I went to lunch with a co-worker from Jamaica, and we ran into some friends of mine. I introduced them, saying, "This is my buddy M, from work..."

He explained later that in Jamaica, "buddy" is a slang word used to refer to the male genitalia!! That explains why he started to crack up at the restaurant...:o

(sorry for more off-topic-ness)
Oh my! :o Good thing to know. I have at least one Jamaican classmate, now I'll know to avoid making that mistake.

Tanuki
September 4th, 2009, 10:33 AM
Dude is gender neutral. I don't care what anyone says. I'd laugh if someone tried to use dudette. That was a fad that never caught on. It didn't need to. Dude is the ultimate word. It's a verb AND a noun,

Finoriel
September 4th, 2009, 10:39 AM
I always think its kind of paradox that the majority of females show very allergic shoc reactions, like hyperventilating and red skin patches :wink:, when people or texts exclusively address the male form of a word. Like "All repairmen of the building need to meet... etc." it absolutely needs to be "All repairmen and repairwoman of the ..." perfect would be "All repairwoman and repairmen of the ..." even though its just a historically caused name for a job and not meant as an insult. But no, doing that is sexistic and intentional mean and the person who wrote/said the offending phrase is from the stoneage and needs a lecture in properly addressing both genders.

And Alun caught us basically doing the same thing :lol: shame on us.

I think its a very good point, if we i.e. women expect others i.e. men to use both genders or a gender neutral choice of words when they address something to a mixed group, we i.e. females should stick to that motto and not do the same thing the other way around assuming that would be fine because its the majority. If you cant get over it yourself - dont recommend that to others. :wink:

I try to use gender neutral forms if I address a large group of people, because I know that many are sensitive to be addressed the wrong way or feel excluded if only one gender is used. I myself never had a problem with anyone calling me a mechanic or engineer though. :wacko: What would be the female form of that anyways... mechanicette, engineerette?

longhairedfairy
September 4th, 2009, 10:40 AM
You've used a telephone and you can ask that question?

Only joking!
Haha!:laugh: Actually, I seriously dislike telephones and have had problems with a weird phobia of them. So, what's the gender of a pencil or a bowl?;)

Finoriel
September 4th, 2009, 10:43 AM
Pencil is he.
Bowl is she.

:wink: You can see that ... :eyebrows:

Nightshade
September 4th, 2009, 10:45 AM
I always think it&#180;s kind of paradox that the majority of females show very allergic shoc reactions, like hyperventilating and red skin patches :wink:, when people or texts exclusively address the male form of a word. Like "All repairmen of the building need to meet... etc." it absolutely needs to be "All repairmen and repairwoman of the ..." perfect would be "All repairwoman and repairmen of the ..." even though it&#180;s just a historically caused name for a job and not meant as an insult. But no, doing that is sexistic and intentional mean and the person who wrote/said the offending phrase is from the stoneage and needs a lecture in properly addressing both genders.

And Alun caught &#180;us&#180; basically doing the same thing :lol: shame on us.

I think it&#180;s a very good point, if &#180;we&#180; i.e. women expect others i.e. men to use both genders or a gender neutral choice of words when they address something to a mixed group, &#180;we&#180; i.e. females should stick to that motto and not do the same thing the other way around assuming that would be fine because it&#180;s the majority. If you can&#180;t get over it yourself - don&#180;t recommend that to others. :wink:

I try to use gender neutral forms if I address a large group of people, because I know that many are sensitive to be addressed the &#180;wrong&#180; way or feel excluded if only one gender is used. I myself never had a problem with anyone calling me a mechanic or engineer though. :wacko: What would be the female form of that anyways... mechanicette, engineerette?

LOL I agree, very well said.

Though the easiest way to be gender neutral in your example is "All repair personnel" as it also puts it in the plural, so you can use they/their through the rest of the sentence :p

longhairedfairy
September 4th, 2009, 10:45 AM
Ehhhh let's all just hold hands and hug! :cheese:
Ach, thanks so much for getting "Why don't you reach out and toooouuch somebody's hand, make this world a better plaaaace if you can..." stuck in my head.:lol:


Pencil is he.
Bowl is she.

:wink: You can see that ... :eyebrows:
Yep, but maybe you need two bowls.;)

Tanuki
September 4th, 2009, 10:57 AM
What if you need a plate?

UncommonTart
September 4th, 2009, 10:58 AM
Well Uncommontart, the intent behind how you address someone is really the key here. When you say "Hey guys." it is understood that it could refer to both a group of men or a group of women or a co-ed group of people. However as you know, addressing a group of males as "Ladies" is clearly intended as an insult to that group of males.

Ehhhh let's all just hold hands and hug! :cheese:


Please don't take offense, but I disagree completely with that idea. "Guys" as a gender neutral term is not even universally accepted in America, much less in every other English-speaking part of the world. In many places, it's considered just as offensive as referring to men as "girls" or "ladies." I'm not saying that it's insulting to be called a guy because of anything offensive about guys, mind you. It feels dismissive, though. I also don't see where addressing a group that includes males as ladies is "clearly intended as an insult." (Let's be honest, the boards here are a group that includes males, not a group of males. There is an important difference. Don't even get me started on addressing a group comprised solely of women as "you guys." That's just as bad as calling a group of men "ladies," in my opinion.) I can see where it would be insulting or offensive, but I would never say that it's obviously intended that way, any more than I think that it's intended as an insult when a group that includes females is collectively addressed as "you guys." It makes one feel marginalized, and I'd agree that it is a bit rude, but I see a big (huge, really) difference in intentional versus unintentional insult. I'm sure that none of us would wish to insult our gentlemen compatriots in long-hair-land, just as I fervently hope that this post does not offend you in any way. :flower:

Let's just try to be more inclusive in our language, shall we?

LittleOrca
September 4th, 2009, 11:09 AM
Little Orca, I just assumed that you were making a point about how we would react with the genders reversed and to show that same kind of judgment in your friend's case. I know a lot of girls that would blame a single guy for sleeping with a married woman, and yet blame the married man when he sleeps with a single woman.

Exactly, that is what I was trying to do. :)


And "guys" isn't a gender neutral term. I know a few people have said that, but there are a few that still consider it to be. A teacher was tested on this with a coworker. She thought it was gender neutral and the coworker said, "Alright. It is. Hey, look at that guy over there in the orange shirt." The teacher looked but didn't see him. When she asked about it, the coworker said, "That's because the he you are looking for was a she... I though you said it was gender neutral." I love that story. :D

I think something more like "hey folks" or "Longhairish/Longhairicans/Longhairians" etc might be better. (ok, those last three were a joke. ;) )

Gumball
September 4th, 2009, 11:10 AM
Sometimes I think it might be due to some having the notion of a community like this being more feminine, so there could potentially be a higher likeliness of thought processes gearing toward women. It may simply not occur to a poster to be general in their inquiry for advice or response.

If that's the case in either a title or the text in the initial post of the thread, but the thread is still something relevant to something I can say, then I'll either say my piece or preface the fact that I'm aware the thread wasn't specifically geared toward me, specifically being used simply due to the target word used. I don't think it's too big a deal, as I haven't been admonished for replying in a thread like that. Now if that actually happened then it might be a whole different story now, wouldn't it?

Sometimes people just forget, sometimes it is actually can be geared toward women, but it all depends on the subject matter and potential of useful posts from the ones gearing up to reply.

eadwine
September 4th, 2009, 11:30 AM
I know the easiest solution to this all.. that solves it all, no debate whether it is too lassy or too guyyie.

Let's just say it like this:




YO! Look at this!

Yo being the operative word here ;) Everything guy gal whatever related, replace it by yo and word the sentences a little different. Prob solved. :)

JamieRose
September 4th, 2009, 11:34 AM
I know the easiest solution to this all.. that solves it all, no debate whether it is too lassy or too guyyie.

Let's just say it like this:




YO! Look at this!

Yo being the operative word here ;) Everything guy gal whatever related, replace it by yo and word the sentences a little different. Prob solved. :)

Or even, "YOU! Read my thread right now!" or "Respond to this now!"

If we all use commands all the time, 'indirect you' is always gender neutral. :p

eadwine
September 4th, 2009, 11:36 AM
EXACTLY!

Doesn't that just solve it all in one blow?


Thank goodness the English language doesn't have two forms of you (the Dutch do, jij and u)..

thankyousir74
September 4th, 2009, 11:39 AM
I know the easiest solution to this all.. that solves it all, no debate whether it is too lassy or too guyyie.

Let's just say it like this:




YO! Look at this!

Yo being the operative word here ;) Everything guy gal whatever related, replace it by yo and word the sentences a little different. Prob solved. :)

Awesome. Totally starting my next thread like this, mark my words ;)

Tanuki
September 4th, 2009, 11:43 AM
I tend to reverse my Yo's and go the football hooligan route

Oy! Listen up!

eadwine
September 4th, 2009, 11:43 AM
:lol:

Hey, that works too you know! :D

Igor
September 4th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Is it just me, or is there an increase in the number of threads with titles addressed to "women" or "ladies"? About 10% of our members are male, although it's hard to give an exact number when some people list their gender as "cheese"! When posts appear not to be speaking to our gender, we don't always post a response. I know I don't.

Of course, I'm not talking about threads that really are gender specific, although strangely no-one finds it necessary to specify females when they are asking for replies from members who are currently pregnant, for example. There obviously are some gender specific topics, but so often lately I see posts that talk about something gender neutral, and yes, hair is gender neutral, but have a title that begins with something like "Ladies, have you ever ...?" or that kind of thing. I am not singling out any specific thread. There are a few of them.

So, please, kindly knock it off.

:applause:

nmarie33
September 4th, 2009, 11:52 AM
Amen! Long hair guys are a rare and wonderful thing, so we should always be aware of our male LHC friends' feelings too! I know I for one would never want to alienate any of our guys. Thank you for the reminder Alun.

Ruvie
September 4th, 2009, 12:10 PM
I have to note your request with just a bit of amusement. Although I understand your reason for the complaint, I cannot resist pointing out that living in a patriarchal society, women are subject to this and worse on a daily basis.

Humans are addressed in the male form always in a patriarchal society. We are not humankind, we are mankind. We are not human, we are men.

Worse yet, when conducting business, be it writing our will, purchasing a car, purchasing insurance . . . whatever it is, the salesman always addresses my husband as if I am not in the room even though he eventually figures out that my husband doesn't handle the business affairs, I do.

So after dealing with a lifetime of being 'invisible' both figuratively and very nearly literally I find it amusing to read your squawk about about it on the board.

I hope you understand that I'm not saying you're wrong or that you don't have a legitimate complaint. I just find it amusing to see the shoe on the other foot. I just hope you take what happens to men here and let it open your eyes when you are out in public towards how these things affect women.

And I will take note of your complaint. If I haven't been careful about how I address gender here before, I will try to be more careful in the future.
I'm with her on this one. I have never seen a title labeled "hey ladies" or any other variation of the word for woman :P Thing is, this website would attract more females, so thinking about "is this thread title going to insult someone because they would feel left out?" isn't in my mind. Go to a video game forum and you would rarely see threads that go "hey ladies".

BranwenWolf
September 4th, 2009, 12:13 PM
Can I go redneck and use the general term "y'all"?

eadwine
September 4th, 2009, 12:17 PM
As far as I am concerned, yep. That would fall in the lines of "yo" "oy" "you" earlier suggested :)

Lady Mary
September 4th, 2009, 12:21 PM
I used to post on another board that had as many woman as this board has men. We were in quite the minority over there. Threads were titled... "Hey guys, gentlemen, fellas, sirs, dudes, etc." We were not excluded from responding just because it says that.

Now, there really isn't a lot of reason to use a gender specific thing in your title unless you want to ask a question addressed to one gender only ("Ladies, bla bla pregnancy bla bla") but I still don't see what the big deal is about. When women are in the minority, we are not usually addressed separately, it's strange to see the one place I find where it's the other way around and a man is complaining that he's not being represented? :shrug:

Tanuki
September 4th, 2009, 12:21 PM
Can I go redneck and use the general term "y'all"?

I suggested y'all about two pages back. Apparently someone who got made fun of for being southern in the 70's :shrug: wasn't fond of it. I can't imagine the weak sort of mind it would take to bear down on southerners. I'm a New Yorker born and bred and I think I would have preferred to have been a southerner

rach
September 4th, 2009, 12:21 PM
I think its a very good point, Alun. :flowers: One might see the term "guys" as somewhat gender neutral - like "people" (though it isnt) -, "ladies" definitely is female. :)
ok this has just me aware of my speaking ways. "Guys" - i see it as gender neutral , even call my kids collectively that because they are a mixture of both genders.
but saying "Guy" that seems male to me.
analyzing english from an outside point of view must be a nightmare and there are also so many oddities. something also i've had to think hard about is not to use phases like - "opening a kettle of fish" which is really common in english usage but is confusing if you start to read it literally .


I have to note your request with just a bit of amusement. Although I understand your reason for the complaint, I cannot resist pointing out that living in a patriarchal society, women are subject to this and worse on a daily basis.

Humans are addressed in the male form always in a patriarchal society. We are not humankind, we are mankind. We are not human, we are men.

Worse yet, when conducting business, be it writing our will, purchasing a car, purchasing insurance . . . whatever it is, the salesman always addresses my husband as if I am not in the room even though he eventually figures out that my husband doesn't handle the business affairs, I do.

So after dealing with a lifetime of being 'invisible' both figuratively and very nearly literally I find it amusing to read your squawk about about it on the board.

I hope you understand that I'm not saying you're wrong or that you don't have a legitimate complaint. I just find it amusing to see the shoe on the other foot. I just hope you take what happens to men here and let it open your eyes when you are out in public towards how these things affect women.

And I will take note of your complaint. If I haven't been careful about how I address gender here before, I will try to be more careful in the future.
yep that is rather irritating and anoying. you go into the DIY(tools) stores/car repair places and they will always asume it's for my DH and i become "invisible" somehow.


I don't think I've ever really taken anyone's gender into consideration when posting on the Mane Forum - usually I'm all about the hair, lol, and not worrying about whether I'm talking to a male or female. "People are people, so why should it be....?" ;)

I agree - the Mane Forum is not a place to post gender-specific topics, as hair and hairtyping are not specific to a certain gender. Everyone has hair, everyone has hair issues and there is no difference on this particular board.

I can understand this being an issue on a different topic board, like Health & Body Beautiful or Friendship Board, where the topics actually have a chance of being gender-specific. :shrug:
i'm with her on this one.

something else i am noticing is people do seem to be becoming tetchy on here recently and members i think need to remember tolerance and expectance levels and to all make efforts to hold the peace and to continue existing in happy hairy harmon :silly:

Gumball
September 4th, 2009, 12:22 PM
I'm with her on this one. I have never seen a title labeled "hey ladies" or any other variation of the word for woman</snip>

For me I see less instances brought up in titles if ever, but more for the body of the introductory posts that bring that to light, although it never really fazes me anyway. :D A post is a post! A thread is a thread!

oogie
September 4th, 2009, 12:24 PM
Can I go redneck and use the general term "y'all"?

Why is that considered a redneck thing? I thought it was a southern thing.

I agree btw that we should all just hug and enjoy some :cheese:

Heidi_234
September 4th, 2009, 12:24 PM
There are 9 gals and one guys in the room. somebody comes up and says "Hey ladies, ...".
Why does that sound wrong?

I think that in formal English both "guys" and "dude" are definitely gender specific. For those who grew up (at least in some parts of) USA, that doesn't hurt the ears, and doesn't sound out of place, but it's a cultural thing. I'm still amazed to find how many things that suggest gender inequality still rooted deep in your languages. Not just using "hey guy" and "dude" for women. The job titles are a good example.

I fail to see how a member, as a men, would care if someone who whats to address the entire forum uses says "hey ladies". For me it just shows that humanity has alot of growing up to do.

getoffmyskittle
September 4th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Hey, I feel the same way! I constantly read and hear about "men" and "mankind." It's such a drag.

aada
September 4th, 2009, 12:37 PM
Coming from a language study aspect, in Spanish (and all Romance languages, i believe), if one male is in a group of x-million females, it changes the group to a male gender.

I understand where you are coming from Alum, but I also agree with the idea that we're not all girls: we are often women! :P Actually, we are most often adults, really.


In the long run, I don't think it matters how the threads are addressed. If you want to comment, comment. I really don't see any difference if the thread was labeled "Hey guys" or "Hey ladies." It just...doesn't affect the content, really. I doubt there will ever be a resolution. I think it would be overly limiting to have a "rule" that says one cannot start a thread with a female noun...but there is no other way to eliminate this, is there? Yes, we can be more attentive to using gender-neutral wording, but *shrug*...

Comment where ya want! Life is too short for political correctness in all areas. ;)

Unofficial_Rose
September 4th, 2009, 12:56 PM
I have to note your request with just a bit of amusement. Although I understand your reason for the complaint, I cannot resist pointing out that living in a patriarchal society, women are subject to this and worse on a daily basis.

Humans are addressed in the male form always in a patriarchal society. We are not humankind, we are mankind. We are not human, we are men.

Worse yet, when conducting business, be it writing our will, purchasing a car, purchasing insurance . . . whatever it is, the salesman always addresses my husband as if I am not in the room even though he eventually figures out that my husband doesn't handle the business affairs, I do.

So after dealing with a lifetime of being 'invisible' both figuratively and very nearly literally I find it amusing to read your squawk about about it on the board.

I hope you understand that I'm not saying you're wrong or that you don't have a legitimate complaint. I just find it amusing to see the shoe on the other foot. I just hope you take what happens to men here and let it open your eyes when you are out in public towards how these things affect women.

And I will take note of your complaint. If I haven't been careful about how I address gender here before, I will try to be more careful in the future.

Amen to this. Exactly what I would want to say, if only I were articulate enough!

Spring
September 4th, 2009, 01:02 PM
Alun, I am definitely guilty of saying "ladies" when talking here at lhc. I'm going to try to correct that in the future :flower:

Elenna
September 4th, 2009, 01:16 PM
One other thing is that many of us are shy which could be another reason not to address threads properly to the males here at LHC. Quote from LOTR: "live and learn..." Directly addressing someone is kind of like looking them in the eyes. Shy people veer away from eye contact.

bte
September 4th, 2009, 01:20 PM
I'll give up on the pencils and bowls discussion!

I think "guy" in the singular is gender specific, in the plural it's mainly gender neutral and is increasingly used in British English. There are of course phrases where the context makes it obviously gender specific in the plural eg:
more guys have beards than gals"
but
Are you guys coming for a drink?
is non specific.

This is a fun thread!

Anje
September 4th, 2009, 01:35 PM
I'm another from a culture where "guys" is neutral. I've tried to not use it as much, because I got criticized by friends for it when I would approach an all-female group of friends and great them "hey, guys!" But "folks", "y'all", and "people" will always feel unnatural for me, despite that those are the words I try to use around here.

It occurs to me that if we (or someone else) came up with truly gender-neutral singular and plural forms for English and got them broadly used online (blogs, twitter, etc), it might eventually become standard.
ETA: I figured there would already be some work on this stuff.... Wikipedia has a decent blurb on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun) and I could handle the Spivak forms.

practikalmagik
September 4th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Another suggestion: "peeps" as in "Hey peeps".

Gender-neutral and less formal then "people". Plus ithink it's cute hee hee

Anje
September 4th, 2009, 01:50 PM
I think I'm just going to go to "Yo, Humans!"

Any objections?

Mutinous
September 4th, 2009, 02:04 PM
I've lurked these forums for a while and I still am a new (male) poster, and I have to say it has never bothered me that there is often a preference for female pronouns and the like.

A word is just a word, it only refelcts the meaning you give it, and as far as I can see there has never been a deliberate attempt to exclude the male members of the board. :)

Mutinous
September 4th, 2009, 02:05 PM
I think I'm just going to go to "Yo, Humans!"

Any objections?


Hmm, what about. Greetings homo-sapiens? Human still has a gender about it. :P

dearladydisdain
September 4th, 2009, 02:08 PM
"Guys" seems to have moved from being the male counterpart of "dolls" (!) into being a general informal term for "people", so I think it's OK to apply to all on a forum like this one.
Agreed. "Guys" has always been a gender neutral term where I'm from, especially when saying "hey, guys." I never even thought about people thinking it might be excluding women until I heard a girl from another area say that she was "not a guy." (Her all-inclusive greeting was "hey, y'all!" Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's less heard in some areas.)

thankyousir74
September 4th, 2009, 02:14 PM
Another suggestion: "peeps" as in "Hey peeps".

Gender-neutral and less formal then "people". Plus ithink it's cute hee hee

I always think of these when I think of "peeps"

http://showclix.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/peeps2.jpg

pdy2kn6
September 4th, 2009, 02:18 PM
Haha thanks for posting this, it made me laugh. You're right, I too have noticed an increase in those sort of threads. It really gets to me when I read gender neutral threads which say things like ''hey ladies'' or stuff like that. It's only hair, its not like we wear pink bows in it, we are just regular men on the quest for healthy long strands.

Lamb
September 4th, 2009, 02:24 PM
Hey, I feel the same way! I constantly read and hear about "men" and "mankind." It's such a drag.
:lol: "Do I detect you in irony?" :eyebrows:

Okay, now I'd really like to know what is going on because searching the titles of all threads in the discussion forums has only brought up 16 threads with "ladies" in the title, some of these also have "and men/gentlemen", and quite a few are in the off-topic forums discussing health issues.

I guess I just really don't see the real issue here. :shrug: I am repeating myself because I keep hoping someone will do a reality check and discover that "increasing number" of threads specifically addressed to women or girls.

SimplyViki
September 4th, 2009, 02:33 PM
:lol: "Do I detect you in irony?" :eyebrows:

Okay, now I'd really like to know what is going on because searching the titles of all threads in the discussion forums has only brought up 16 threads with "ladies" in the title, some of these also have "and men/gentlemen", and quite a few are in the off-topic forums discussing health issues.

I guess I just really don't see the real issue here. :shrug: I am repeating myself because I keep hoping someone will do a reality check and discover that "increasing number" of threads specifically addressed to women or girls.
I tried searching for these increasing threads, too. I did a search for threads with "women", "ladies", or "girls" in the thread titles. Most of the titles I came up with were specifically addressed to the female gender, not just a hair topic. :shrug:

Shiva
September 4th, 2009, 02:33 PM
We're not all girls, you know!
... and thank Goddess for that!

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l226/NorthernXposure/emoticons/laugh_2.gif

GlennaGirl
September 4th, 2009, 02:58 PM
When I've had "feminine concern" posts, I haven't specified "ladies" for the simple reason that I assume some men might also have the answers. Many men live with women, after all. Some are doctors. There's no reason to exclude men from them.

I'm not seeing any huge trend on "hey ladies" stuff either...(shrug)

Tanuki
September 4th, 2009, 03:06 PM
If we're inventing a gender neutral word, I'm throwing in my ideas now. I suggest "pogs." It just sounds fun and people-y

GlassEyes
September 4th, 2009, 03:23 PM
I don't really care, to be honest. It does bug me, but I delight in posting in them anyway and making my presence known. It's quite fun. :D

getoffmyskittle
September 4th, 2009, 03:50 PM
:lol: "Do I detect you in irony?" :eyebrows:

Okay, now I'd really like to know what is going on because searching the titles of all threads in the discussion forums has only brought up 16 threads with "ladies" in the title, some of these also have "and men/gentlemen", and quite a few are in the off-topic forums discussing health issues.

I guess I just really don't see the real issue here. :shrug: I am repeating myself because I keep hoping someone will do a reality check and discover that "increasing number" of threads specifically addressed to women or girls.

I'm looking...

6/16 threads, in all forums, are directed to "ladies" when they probably mean "people at LHC."

Vegasrenie
September 4th, 2009, 03:50 PM
I don't think I've ever really taken anyone's gender into consideration when posting on the Mane Forum - usually I'm all about the hair, lol, and not worrying about whether I'm talking to a male or female. "People are people, so why should it be....?" ;)

I agree - the Mane Forum is not a place to post gender-specific topics, as hair and hairtyping are not specific to a certain gender. Everyone has hair, everyone has hair issues and there is no difference on this particular board.

I can understand this being an issue on a different topic board, like Health & Body Beautiful or Friendship Board, where the topics actually have a chance of being gender-specific. :shrug:

And now that I've entered the menopausal time of life and growing my own beard, being gender-specific is really irrelevent!:jestor:

Arashi
September 4th, 2009, 03:54 PM
I don't recall ever seeing any threads specifically addressing women in the title... there certainly aren't any on the first few pages of the mane forum right now.. :confused:

Even so, no need to get one's undies in a bunch, I'm sure that no one is intending to offend anyone, be exclusionary, or threaten their masculinity or whatever.. :neutral:

Toadstool
September 4th, 2009, 04:10 PM
Oddly enough, the word "girl" is mildly offensive/inaccurate to describe a post pubescent woman, IMO.
Quite.

I also appreciate Alun's original point. It is not difficult to use inclusive language, and that goes for both genders.

Tap Dancer
September 4th, 2009, 04:24 PM
Can I go redneck and use the general term "y'all"?

I'm not a redneck (far from it) and I say "y'all" sometimes. It's common in the south.

Alun
September 4th, 2009, 04:42 PM
Lots of interesting replies.

One person doubted that there really are 10&#37; males here, but it has been polled a couple of times quite a long time apart, and I've no doubt it's about that. OTOH, the proportion of posts by males is definitely a lot lower than 10%. We just don't "talk" as much it seems. Now, how's that for fitting in with a stereotype?

Another person mentionned newbies, and I suspect that it probably is mainly newbies who think it's a long hair board so everyone must be female. Probably even born too late to remember the sixties and seventies. Or is that an ageist remark?

The guys as generic plural thing is interesting too. I am a Brit, but have lived in America for quite a while. Going back to before I first met Americans I had never heard this usage. It has been pointed out by bte that this is becoming British usage to some extent, but it never was when I lived there. This, however, doesn't surprise me. Americanisms have a tendency to be taken up in the UK. What did surprise me were the posts that point out that it still isn't common in all parts of the US, as all the Americans that I know use it, but of course there are many states where I've never been.

I really like 'peeps', both the idea of using this as an address, especially 'hair-peeps' for LHC members, and the edible kind, LOL! Y'all is fine too, for the terminally Southern amongst us, LOL! [ETA: Hey! I'm a Southerner! I'm from London] However, I don't really see why thread titles have to begin with any kind of address atall, and several people already pointed out that they don't think that's necessary either.

Then there's the big one, the fact that women have to put up with male forms of address so often, and men should just get over it. I think that's already been answered, and by women too. Women do complain about it all the time, so why shouldn't we?

As for why referring to women as guys wouldn't be seen as insulting, but referring to men as girls would be, this is historical baggage based on the supposition of men having higher status, and those who posed the question knew this. It was just a rhetorical question. I wouldn't say it was any longer true that men do have higher status, although YMMV, but which one is or isn't considered to be an insult is carried over for historical reasons.

I don't think it's really about insults, anyway. [ETA: or even supposed threats to masculinity] It's more about being ignored. That's why women get annoyed by similar things, I think. If someone addresses only men, they feel (and maybe are being) ignored. Ditto when it's the other way around.

getoffmyskittle
September 4th, 2009, 04:50 PM
Then there's the big one, the fact that women have to put up with male forms of address so often, and men should just get over it. I think that's already been answered, and by women too. Women do complain about it all the time, so why shouldn't we?

Alun, it's not that you complained about it (at least to me), it's the way that you said it. You have the world, we have a forum. I actually agree with you, we should be inclusive of all genders, but I have trouble really sympathizing when you complain about something we experience everywhere else, every day, and then end your post with "knock it off," even if you say please first.

Tangles
September 4th, 2009, 05:09 PM
Yeah, the "knock it off" wording struck me as harsh, though I don't think Alun meant it that way.

Gemma
September 4th, 2009, 05:13 PM
Alun, it's not that you complained about it (at least to me), it's the way that you said it. You have the world, we have a forum. I actually agree with you, we should be inclusive of all genders, but I have trouble really sympathizing when you complain about something we experience everywhere else, every day, and then end your post with "knock it off," even if you say please first.

Perfectly said, Skitts! :thumbsup:

aada
September 4th, 2009, 05:14 PM
Lots of interesting replies.


Another person mentionned newbies, and I suspect that it probably is mainly newbies who think it's a long hair board so everyone must be female. Probably even born too late to remember the sixties and seventies. Or is that an ageist remark?

Women do complain about it all the time, so why shouldn't we?


1) I am a newbie. I was definitely born too late for the 60's and 70's. The MAJORITY of my long-hair friends are male. So yes, ageist, and inaccurate... :p

2) Women complain about it because it is a VALID complaint. Really, I tend to argue with most feminists I know, but this comment just got to me a bit. I agree with the poster who said "you have the world; we have a forum." Honestly, you complaining about gender inequality...is rather odd to me. When, in the world at large, have you ever been discriminated against based purely on gender? It's a rather null issue. You aren't being discriminated against. No one is telling you that you aren't masculine enough. No one is deliberately excluding you BECAUSE you are a man.

I agree that greetings aren't needed; a simple title explaining thread content is plenty. But people generally begin a written statement with a greeting, as it is common in virtually all communication: we say hello, we say "dear john" in our letters, etc. So, until we can decondition the masses, we are stuck with greetings. And until we can convince everyone to follow one path (hah), we may have some threads with feminine nouns in the titles!

Tanuki
September 4th, 2009, 05:18 PM
The world? I have a basement. I come from a family of mostly women. I never had power

Gemma
September 4th, 2009, 05:28 PM
The world? I have a basement. I come from a family of mostly women. I never had power

You might feel as if your personal situation means you have no power, but you are still part of a society that treats men and women very differently, with men often coming out on top. Women are still paid less than men, to use an obvious example, despite the fact that this is illegal.

GlennaGirl
September 4th, 2009, 05:29 PM
The world? I have a basement. I come from a family of mostly women. I never had power

My dear, hate to bring it down to this level but try the following:

1. Work your butt off for 25 years for a salary lower than a man's for the same work (that last part is important) due to a mildly altered, carefully created job description that's basically the same thing (also important). If you complain about it, find yourself on the sudden receiving end of being written up for various errors you KNOW but can't prove other people in your company are making. This is in preparation for your firing. Once you're fired, attempt to take the company, which is worth $3billion, to court against you, a former $35K/year earner and now unemployed, with their verification that you "made mistakes" and that's why you were fired; and with the big bosses giggling in the background, and now you with no job, no credibility and a bad reputation as a troublemaker. Try getting another job after that. That's the REALLY fun part. You just won't. Result? Nobody complains. Because even comparatively sh*tty pay is something, and we all need to eat.

Once you're fired, attempt to take the company, which is worth $3billion, to court against you, a former $35K/year earner and now unemployed, with their verification that you "made mistakes" and that's why you were fired; and with the big bosses giggling in the background, and now you with no job, no credibility and a bad reputation as a troublemaker. Try getting another job after that. That's the REALLY fun part. You just won't. Result? Nobody complains. Because even comparatively sh*tty pay is something, and we all need to eat.


2. Okay, next: Go on some internet forum and be forced to see the word "ladies" maybe every 4 weeks to 6 months.

3. Tell me which makes you a skooch more uncomfortable. :rolleyes:

Women have been fighting for equality for so long because inequality directly impinges upon our ability to support ourselves and therefore, survive. That's why we put such stipulations on details.

Not because it makes us feel mildly annoyed.

Saying "No fair...if women get to complain, so do I" in light of the absolutely hideous treatment of women throughout recent employment history (and to stretch a point, at least the past millennium in all crevices and corners of daily life) in comparison cheapens the whole thing and is amazingly immature to boot. Why do you think it's an "insult" to call a man a woman but not vice versa? Literally because we are taught, by action if not by words (remember--we must be politically correct! At least in what we say) that men are superior to women.

You don't think that's something to complain about? Maybe a hair more to complain about than a woman-dominated board asking women to respond to a question?

Getting back to the point: you don't like being excluded (Alun--not the poster I'm quoting)? Bring it up. But kindly leave off the "knock it off" rude directive next time...and you might be received a little better.

Altocumulus
September 4th, 2009, 05:50 PM
My dear, hate to bring it down to this level but try the following:

1. Work your butt off for 25 years for a salary lower than a man's for the same work (that last part is important) due to a mildly altered, carefully created job description that's basically the same thing (also important). If you complain about it, find yourself on the sudden receiving end of being written up for various errors you KNOW but can't prove other people in your company are making. This is in preparation for your firing. Once you're fired, attempt to take the company, which is worth $3billion, to court against you, a former $35K/year earner and now unemployed, with their verification that you "made mistakes" and that's why you were fired; and with the big bosses giggling in the background, and now you with no job, no credibility and a bad reputation as a troublemaker. Try getting another job after that. That's the REALLY fun part. You just won't. Result? Nobody complains. Because even comparatively sh*tty pay is something, and we all need to eat.

2. Okay, next: Go on some internet forum and be forced to see the word "ladies" maybe every 4 weeks to 6 months.

3. Tell me which makes you a skooch more uncomfortable. :rolleyes:

Women have been fighting for equality for so long because inequality directly impinges upon our ability to support ourselves and therefore, survive. That's why we put such stipulations on details.

Not because it makes us feel mildly annoyed.

Saying "No fair...if women get to complain, so do I" in light of the absolutely hideous treatment of women throughout recent history (and to stretch a point, at least the past millennium) in comparison cheapens the whole thing and is amazingly immature to boot. Why do you think it's an "insult" to call a man a woman but not vice versa? Literally because we are taught, by action if not by words (remember--we must be politically correct! At least in what we say) that men are superior to women.

You don't think that's something to complain about? Maybe a hair more to complain about than a woman-dominated board asking women to respond to a question?

Getting back to the point: you don't like being excluded (Alun--not the poster I'm quoting)? Bring it up. But kindly leave off the "knock it off" rude directive next time...and you might be received a little better.

*standing ovation*

orbiting
September 4th, 2009, 05:54 PM
GlennaGirl, :applause

Seriously - The "Knock it Off" really bothers me.

Let me also ask about this:

I wouldn't say it was any longer true that men do have higher status, although YMMV, but which one is or isn't considered to be an insult is carried over for historical reasons.
You do not think that men have a higher status in (at least) Western society any more? Did I read that right?
:undecided

GlennaGirl
September 4th, 2009, 05:57 PM
You do not think that men have a higher status in (at least) Western society any more? Did I read that right?
:undecided

EXACTLY. Okay, not to get all excited and bra-burning over here, but only somebody who hasn't lived every day of every year of his (her) life repressed all over the map could possibly think, "Oh, they don't have it so bad."

Easy to say...

Silver & Gold
September 4th, 2009, 06:00 PM
Can I just say one tiny thing? I'm not a girl.

"Cause I'm a wooooooman, W - O - M - A - N, let me tell ya again. Ya I'm a woooooman, W - O - M - A - N!"

Shiva
September 4th, 2009, 06:03 PM
Can I just say one tiny thing? I'm not a girl.

"Cause I'm a wooooooman, W - O - M - A - N, let me tell ya again. Ya I'm a woooooman, W - O - M - A - N!"
you can bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan!

oh yeah.

rusika1
September 4th, 2009, 06:04 PM
I'm not too fond of "girls" or "ladies" as a form of address anyway, in general I find them to be somewhat condescending.

What's wrong with "fellow LHCers" as a greeting?

GlassEyes
September 4th, 2009, 06:06 PM
Saying "No fair...if women get to complain, so do I"
.

You know, I generally do agree with what you said, but this, THIS annoys me. Saying someone has no right to complain or voice their opinion on something because another person has suffered MORE than them, thus making their opinion illegitimate is wrong. WRONG.

Men may have more privileges than women, but have you ever thought of what we DON'T have? We can't easily take time off work for newborn kids, if we go the slightest bit out of our gender definitions, our sexuality is insult and we can be attacked. If we so much as try to go against any way that society thinks of as 'not masculine' we take crap for it. Does that negate that women have been mistreated throughout history? No. But does the fact that women have been mistreated make us unable to have any sort of complaint about how WE'RE treated? No. You have no right to say that. EVER.

If you want a comparison, I'd liken THAT statement to someone saying 'Oh, a genocide in Italy is nothing compared to a genocide in Africa because all those poor brown people have been discriminated against for a millenia'. Guess what? Both matter. Both really, really, REALLY matter.

Dvips
September 4th, 2009, 06:09 PM
Mod hat on Regardless of the state of affairs in the world at large, a member has a right to mention something that is bothering him and to ask that we try to avoid it. We do not have to agree to do so, though it would be polite to try.

You may, of course, discuss the way that it was phrased. Just please keep in mind that the way we read something is not necessarily the way it was intended, and consider giving our members the benefit of the doubt in general.

ClareDee
September 4th, 2009, 06:20 PM
Alun, I for one think your point is fair.

I've been struggling with this post, and typed it out twice, and have finally realised I'm just not eloquent enough to say what I mean.

Anyway I feel a bit of an alien among the women here at the moment, because I saw nothing wrong with your request. "Ladies"/"girls" is exclusionary to you. Nobody here should be excluded.

So, inclusionary beerchug for you :beerchug:

Lamb
September 4th, 2009, 06:21 PM
However, I don't really see why thread titles have to begin with any kind of address atall, and several people already pointed out that they don't think that's necessary either.
Okay, Alun, I'm lost. So what exactly is your problem? We have pointed out that there aren't that many threads addressing "ladies" or "girls" or "females" as you claim there are. You have started a thread about threads addressing women and thus, in your perception, excluding men. You have asked people here to "knock it off." Knock what off, exactly? Addressing women (a grand total of six times on the Mane board for as long as the search engine goes back, and 16 times on the boards at large), or adressing anyone at all?

Sorry, Alun, but I am lost. Please clarify. What is your problem?

sapphire-o
September 4th, 2009, 06:23 PM
Ok I'm a nerd and just did a search on titles containing "ladies" and only found 16 results. :)

I checked the contents of those 16 threads and 7 of them are gender specific topics like period, breasts so the ladies in the title were appropriate. 2 of them included "men" in the title. 7 of them could be gender neutral but only used "ladies". That really doesn't seem to be too many among the thousands of threads we have here. :)

ETA: I just did the search on "girls"and got 22 results. One is this thread of course. 14 of them are gender specific topics, 4 have "guys" in the title, too. Only 3 could have been neutral but used "girls" only.

Any other keyword I should check?

Medievalmaniac
September 4th, 2009, 06:24 PM
I've got it! I've got it!

We'll just begin such threads the way the Anglo-Saxons would do it:

HWAET!

Solves everything, no gender involved. :D

But for those who are interested in the wording bit, read Isidore of Seville. His early medieval, Latin Etymologies set the standard for why women are linguistically and thus in actuality inferior to men and it's been going strong ever since.

Actually, for a deeper and more meaningful discussion of gender discrimination and inequalities in the western tradition, start with Genesis in any good study Bible, and then the versions of Genesis found in The Other Bible (available pretty much anywhere that sells both new and used books). Next, read the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John in the Bible, and then the Gospel of Mary Magdalene in the Other Bible.

Follow this with The Myth of the Goddess.

Then get a copy of Alcuin Blamires's Women Defamed, Women Defended for a broad and varied selection of medieval texts from Church Fathers and other writers of the Middle Ages.

After reading these selections, it is so easy to see why things are as they are. For even greater depth, you can read widely in 19th century texts featuring Victorian theories of the woman (you fell into one category: Madonna/Virgin/Whore/Spinster...which seriously screwed up a lot of men in terms of their relationships with their wives.)

I have a lot to say on this, because I have studied it, taught it, and written on it widely - besides, of course, the obvious of my having lived it. But I also think that an open forum in which there's no face- to - face contact and I can't judge everyone's reactions as I go on and on would likely result in my being banned...and I like it here. So, respectfully, having given these suggestions, I withdraw from the discussion...but if you want my syllabi or further suggestions or to discuss anything further with me, feel free to pm. :)

Lamb
September 4th, 2009, 06:28 PM
Ok I'm a nerd and just did a search on titles containing "ladies" and only found 16 results. :)

I checked the contents of those 16 threads and 7 of them are gender specific topics like period, breasts so the ladies in the title were appropriate. 2 of them included "men" in the title. 8 of them could be gender neutral but only used "ladies". That really doesn't seem to be too many among the thousands of threads we have here. :)

Yeah, skitts and I did that too. In fact, I also searched for "girls." 22 results since time immemorial. Two of which contained "and guys", and most pertained to really "girly" stuff, so the address was quite legitimate.

All issues regarding gender equality etc. etc. etc. aside, I still don't see what Alun's problem is (in terms of real numbers, that is, I do get his general drift I just can't see the real basis for it).:shrug:

ecologystudent
September 4th, 2009, 06:30 PM
So, how many titles have "guys" in the title? La la la la....

Lamb
September 4th, 2009, 06:35 PM
So, how many titles have "guys" in the title? La la la la....

My search came to 48... :D So, the male/neutral version still has the lead. Ugh, did I just invalidate someone's complaint?

sapphire-o
September 4th, 2009, 06:40 PM
Ya, I tried to do a search on "men" but the word is too short. I bet we'd have quite a few of those threads, too. I personally remember seeing at least 7 or 8 separate threads asking about updos for men. :)

GlassEyes
September 4th, 2009, 06:54 PM
Question--you've only searched for 'ladies'? Have you tried girls, or any other name for the female gender? I got 22 hits for 'girls' alone.

Lady Mary
September 4th, 2009, 06:56 PM
Question--you've only searched for 'ladies'? Have you tried girls, or any other name for the female gender? I got 22 hits for 'girls' alone.



I just did the search on "girls"and got 22 results. One is this thread of course. 14 of them are gender specific topics, 4 have "guys" in the title, too. Only 3 could have been neutral but used "girls" only.

Sapphire-o did a "girls" search already. Looks like only 3 total of those threads could be considered "offensive?" :shrug:

UncommonTart
September 4th, 2009, 07:02 PM
Ya, I tried to do a search on "men" but the word is too short. I bet we'd have quite a few of those threads, too. I personally remember seeing at least 7 or 8 separate threads asking about updos for men. :)


Hmmm... you know, we have more than a few female-specific threads and no one sees anything wrong with that. What's wrong with male-specific threads? The usual type of LHC updo threads might not be as helpful. (Gibson tucks, et cetera) And since "men" is too short a word for the search function to work, why haven't we got a sticky for "Popular Updos for Men" or something? Surely that would make it easier for anyone looking for such a thread, no?

I don't think that anyone was complaining about the number of gender-specific threads here, but about the language used in the ones that are really gender-neutral in content. No one likes to feel marginalized. Let's be friends. :flower:

ETA: Yes, the sticky idea is completely off topic, and I just realized that it appears as if I'm suggestion slapping a band-aid on a problem and calling it fixed, but it's a slightly unrelated something that just occured to me as I read Sapphire-O's post.

Ruvie
September 4th, 2009, 07:04 PM
My dear, hate to bring it down to this level but try the following:

1. Work your butt off for 25 years for a salary lower than a man's for the same work (that last part is important) due to a mildly altered, carefully created job description that's basically the same thing (also important). If you complain about it, find yourself on the sudden receiving end of being written up for various errors you KNOW but can't prove other people in your company are making. This is in preparation for your firing. Once you're fired, attempt to take the company, which is worth $3billion, to court against you, a former $35K/year earner and now unemployed, with their verification that you "made mistakes" and that's why you were fired; and with the big bosses giggling in the background, and now you with no job, no credibility and a bad reputation as a troublemaker. Try getting another job after that. That's the REALLY fun part. You just won't. Result? Nobody complains. Because even comparatively sh*tty pay is something, and we all need to eat.

Once you're fired, attempt to take the company, which is worth $3billion, to court against you, a former $35K/year earner and now unemployed, with their verification that you "made mistakes" and that's why you were fired; and with the big bosses giggling in the background, and now you with no job, no credibility and a bad reputation as a troublemaker. Try getting another job after that. That's the REALLY fun part. You just won't. Result? Nobody complains. Because even comparatively sh*tty pay is something, and we all need to eat.


2. Okay, next: Go on some internet forum and be forced to see the word "ladies" maybe every 4 weeks to 6 months.

3. Tell me which makes you a skooch more uncomfortable. :rolleyes:

Women have been fighting for equality for so long because inequality directly impinges upon our ability to support ourselves and therefore, survive. That's why we put such stipulations on details.

Not because it makes us feel mildly annoyed.

Saying "No fair...if women get to complain, so do I" in light of the absolutely hideous treatment of women throughout recent employment history (and to stretch a point, at least the past millennium in all crevices and corners of daily life) in comparison cheapens the whole thing and is amazingly immature to boot. Why do you think it's an "insult" to call a man a woman but not vice versa? Literally because we are taught, by action if not by words (remember--we must be politically correct! At least in what we say) that men are superior to women.

You don't think that's something to complain about? Maybe a hair more to complain about than a woman-dominated board asking women to respond to a question?

Getting back to the point: you don't like being be received a little better.
:cheer::applause:cheer::applause::cheer:

Lamb
September 4th, 2009, 07:07 PM
Question--you've only searched for 'ladies'? Have you tried girls, or any other name for the female gender? I got 22 hits for 'girls' alone.

Yessir:


Yeah, skitts and I did that too. In fact, I also searched for "girls." 22 results since time immemorial. Two of which contained "and guys", and most pertained to really "girly" stuff, so the address was quite legitimate.

morecharacters

missfortune9335
September 4th, 2009, 07:09 PM
my goodness, this opened a whole can of worms didn't it?

rusika1
September 4th, 2009, 07:10 PM
You know, I generally do agree with what you said, but this, THIS annoys me. Saying someone has no right to complain or voice their opinion on something because another person has suffered MORE than them, thus making their opinion illegitimate is wrong. WRONG.

Men may have more privileges than women, but have you ever thought of what we DON'T have? We can't easily take time off work for newborn kids, if we go the slightest bit out of our gender definitions, our sexuality is insult and we can be attacked. If we so much as try to go against any way that society thinks of as 'not masculine' we take crap for it. Does that negate that women have been mistreated throughout history? No. But does the fact that women have been mistreated make us unable to have any sort of complaint about how WE'RE treated? No. You have no right to say that. EVER.

If you want a comparison, I'd liken THAT statement to someone saying 'Oh, a genocide in Italy is nothing compared to a genocide in Africa because all those poor brown people have been discriminated against for a millenia'. Guess what? Both matter. Both really, really, REALLY matter.

This.

You know, the first step to true equality is consistently behave as if everyone is equal. Do it long enough, and maybe others will start to follow along. To paraphrase Arlo Guthrie in Alice's Restaurant, "if one person does it they might think (s)he's crazy, if 50 people do it, they might think it's a movement."

I don't know if it's the hot weather, or the bad economy, or the alignment of the stars, but it seems like lots of people on this board have been going out of their way to be offended by stuff that really shouldn't elicit so much anger, angst or hurt feelings.

Oh, and Alun? I understood 'knock it off' to be an attempt to make your request more light-hearted.

rusika1
September 4th, 2009, 07:14 PM
I've got it! I've got it!

We'll just begin such threads the way the Anglo-Saxons would do it:

HWAET!

Solves everything, no gender involved. :D



Well, you SAY it solves everything, but my college phonetics instructor insisted the HW/WH aspirate doesn't exist in 'real life'; so we would have the problem of pronunciation to deal with.:D

GlennaGirl
September 4th, 2009, 07:27 PM
Hmmm... you know, we have more than a few female-specific threads and no one sees anything wrong with that. What's wrong with male-specific threads?

Nothing is wrong with this. And I have seen a few "I'm a guy, what styles are good for me" or what-have-you-threads. What I haven't seen is a mass hissy fit over a guy-specific thread. :rolleyes:

GlennaGirl
September 4th, 2009, 07:29 PM
You know, I generally do agree with what you said, but this, THIS annoys me. Saying someone has no right to complain or voice their opinion on something because another person has suffered MORE than them, thus making their opinion illegitimate is wrong. WRONG.


I never said complaining or voicing one's opinion (about something with at least a little validity--I mean now we're even seeing that there's no such "growing trend" of addressing "ladies" at all) was wrong.

I said saying one can complain because someone else complained about something that functions entirely differently is wrong; and in fact, belittling to a cause that's about survival and things rather larger than "but sheeeeeeeeeeeee said it."

Never, anywhere did I say simply complaining is wrong.

Nor did I say men have nothing to complain about. I was specific to this particular, exact issue. Not all issues as a whole. Where do you see me telling men that whatever complaints they have don't count any more because of women's struggles in general?

Nowhere. Rather, I said the comparison of seeing the word "ladies" maybe a few times on a message board does not compare to the inequality in general between men and women in western society. And it doesn't.

As to the gender issues you alluded to, I have no idea and therefore would never be so smug as to sound off and say "well, if GlassEyes can complain about these issues, then I can complain about anything I want--and I can even rudely tell people to knock it off!"

Dvips
September 4th, 2009, 07:34 PM
Okay, Alun asked "Is it just me, or is there an increase in the number of threads". There may or may not have been an increase from less than 22 (or 48, or whatever) to these current numbers. Regardless, he had this perception. There are times when each of us perceives something that does not hold up to the numbers.

It doesn't seem that anything new and positive forthcoming from this thread at this point (since we've started repeating each other) and so I am closing the thread for the time being. It may be open again under Moderator consideration, should we feel I acted too hastily.