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rhondalicious
August 28th, 2009, 07:35 AM
Just when I finally reach waist length for the first time since I was 10, I have finally come to realize that my SD (dandruff/itchy scalp) is only getting worse. I can't enjoy my long hair if I have grotty flakes all through the length. :(

I've been thinking about this for more than 2 weeks, too!

When my 3 year old was born, I cut to a chin length bob, and so I know I can grow my hair back out from it fairly quickly. I just feel like I need to cut it all off, take care of my scalp FIRST, then once I'm in a maintenance cycle for the scalp problems, allow my hair to grow back out.

Has anyone else had to do this?

I just find it so difficult to treat my scalp with tea tree oil/vinegar/doctor prescribed glop, while having this giant, heavy mass of hair. I'm also pretty sure that the weight of the hair itself is a factor in the distress my scalp is under.

So, I'm planning on starting fresh, with a short pixie, moving towards all natural remedies (Since everything I've been prescribed tends to help for a short while until I develop a sensitivity to it). I plan on using shampoo bars, vinagar rinses, and SMT to condition. Any other advice or suggestions? I'm all ears!

SimplyViki
August 28th, 2009, 07:49 AM
Hmm... A member on another hair site mentioned once that using Chagrin Valley bars helped with her seborrheic dermatitis. That's what you have, right? I'll go see if I can dig up some more info on her routine for you. The person I'm thinking of has waist length hair, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe you don't have to chop, I'd start moving towards the natural routine first to see how your hair and scalp like it.

ETA: I give up, I can't find anything like what I said, maybe my mind made it up?? But the vinegar rinses did come up in my searching, they seem to be a good idea. Also there was a method of removing dandruff that involved washing, exfoliating (fingernails gently, or you can use a sugar scrub), washing again that might help.

Now I'll keep quiet and hope someone with actual experience with SD will come along with some advice. :)

Anje
August 28th, 2009, 07:55 AM
Hopefully some of the folks with SD will weigh in...

Personally, I doubt the length of your hair is going to have any effect on your SD, though I can understand that less hair might make it easier to apply treatments to the scalp.

There's no reason why you can't let vinegar and tea tree oil run through your hair. Oftentimes, the hair likes stuff like vinegar, since it smooths down the cuticles.

ETA: No reason you can't use shampoo bars with your long hair -- people here use them all the time! You may want an acidic rinse, depending on your water conditions and whether you follow with conditioner, but that's more likely to help with the SD than harm it.

rhondalicious
August 28th, 2009, 08:10 AM
I am mostly worried about the stuff my doc may or may not prescribe - I'm heading back to a dermatologist to see if they have anything that THEY want me to take/use, then I have to decide whether or not I want to do it!

I've already moved to 2 washes a week, using V05 no cone condish. I do have to use shampoo, or else the flakes get even worse than they are now. That's why I want to try a bar, to move away from the sulfates - I already know I'm sensitive to them, and it's just about impossible to find any shampoo on the shelf of a local store that DOESNT have something I'm allergic to.

But even with all these changes, my scalp is still awful. My doc thinks it has something to do with Utah - I grew up in California, and never had dermatitis until I moved to Utah, and every year here it gets worse and worse. Nizoral doesn't work any more, neither do shampoos like Head and Shoulders or Selsun Blue or the Neutrogena Coal Tar. We got a water softener specifically to see if it would help my scalp issues, and nope, still troublesome.

That's why I think maybe starting with virgin hair, short enough where I can actually get at all of my scalp, maybe that would help me clear this up. With my long hair, I have a hard time getting at certain spots on my head, and I can tell that those spots are the worst, and the scalp condition spreads from those bits to the rest of my head.

It feels like I'm playing Risk on my own head! Me vs the scalp itchies/crusties!

Longlocks3
August 28th, 2009, 08:12 AM
If you really want to chop, then you should. But I have a horrible scalp, SD that I was perscribed topical steroids for. I lost huge patches of hair before I found effective medical treatment. I cut from waist to chin when I was a teenager because of the huge hair loss. I am now almost classic. And I no longer need steroids, I believe. I found that SLS was a big irritant and that CO most days with a SLS/ALS and paraben free shampoo once a week with scalp massaging every wash has made a HUGE difference. I do still have patches here and there but they are shrinking and I no longer feel so desperate about my hair.

I didn't find my longer hair to get in the way of my steroid applications(which I did for 5 years until about 3 months ago). if anything, doctor/derm treatments only resulted in a 50-60% better scalp while changing my routine/products/diet/vitamins made a much larger impact.

Good luck, its a stressful thing to have. Oh and scritching made a big impact.

SHELIAANN1969
August 28th, 2009, 08:17 AM
Just a thought, I had awful dry scalp and it was driving me crazy, I finally discovered the culprit was the fragrances in my conditioner.

I now use only natural conditioners, with EO's as fragrance, and am flake free, itch free, and so so happy with my scalp. If my lips would reach, I would kiss it myself! :D

I hope you find out what is causing it, I know it's NO fun.

Longlocks3
August 28th, 2009, 08:20 AM
I am mostly worried about the stuff my doc may or may not prescribe - I'm heading back to a dermatologist to see if they have anything that THEY want me to take/use, then I have to decide whether or not I want to do it!

I've already moved to 2 washes a week, using V05 no cone condish. I do have to use shampoo, or else the flakes get even worse than they are now. That's why I want to try a bar, to move away from the sulfates - I already know I'm sensitive to them, and it's just about impossible to find any shampoo on the shelf of a local store that DOESNT have something I'm allergic to.

But even with all these changes, my scalp is still awful. My doc thinks it has something to do with Utah - I grew up in California, and never had dermatitis until I moved to Utah, and every year here it gets worse and worse. Nizoral doesn't work any more, neither do shampoos like Head and Shoulders or Selsun Blue or the Neutrogena Coal Tar. We got a water softener specifically to see if it would help my scalp issues, and nope, still troublesome.

That's why I think maybe starting with virgin hair, short enough where I can actually get at all of my scalp, maybe that would help me clear this up. With my long hair, I have a hard time getting at certain spots on my head, and I can tell that those spots are the worst, and the scalp condition spreads from those bits to the rest of my head.

It feels like I'm playing Risk on my own head! Me vs the scalp itchies/crusties!

Yes, derms and regular docs prescribed me many different things. In my case my derm wasn't aggressive enough and tar/tea tree oil and that, didn't work. My doc had to prescribe the steroids and I only started on them because it was so bad at the time.

I tried all the shampoos you listed above too. Head and Shoulders burns me! Nirozal didn't help much and neither did Neurtrogena Coal Tar shampoo. I did find some relief with Neutrogena Salyic Acid shampoo. If I had a bad break out I would use it again. The salyic(sp?) acid eats the crude from my understanding.

heidi w.
August 28th, 2009, 08:30 AM
Just when I finally reach waist length for the first time since I was 10, I have finally come to realize that my SD (dandruff/itchy scalp) is only getting worse. I can't enjoy my long hair if I have grotty flakes all through the length. :(

I've been thinking about this for more than 2 weeks, too!

When my 3 year old was born, I cut to a chin length bob, and so I know I can grow my hair back out from it fairly quickly. I just feel like I need to cut it all off, take care of my scalp FIRST, then once I'm in a maintenance cycle for the scalp problems, allow my hair to grow back out.

Has anyone else had to do this?

I just find it so difficult to treat my scalp with tea tree oil/vinegar/doctor prescribed glop, while having this giant, heavy mass of hair. I'm also pretty sure that the weight of the hair itself is a factor in the distress my scalp is under.

So, I'm planning on starting fresh, with a short pixie, moving towards all natural remedies (Since everything I've been prescribed tends to help for a short while until I develop a sensitivity to it). I plan on using shampoo bars, vinagar rinses, and SMT to condition. Any other advice or suggestions? I'm all ears!

I have Seborrheic Dermatitus. Length of hair will not change the scalp skin's issue. Period. While not dealing with the volume of hair may be easier for you, that's a fine decision to make, but don't assume that shorter hair will somehow relieve you in some way of SD.

In the hair care world of products, SD is NOT attended to.

Prior to my recent discovery of products that work which I am not able to mention here, here was my routine.

First, if you have length yet also SD, you need to learn to scalp wash. This will work for hair that is BSL or longer. The fuller scalp wash tends to get hair wet to the shoulders and then some, BUT with SD, you likely have a faster rise on the front hairline and top of head, and slower progress on the back of the head. THEREFORE, you can do an abbreviated scalp wash frequently throughout the week where you bun and shower cap the hair, then face the shower water, and lean quite forward and ONLY get the front and top of head wet, and wash that with shampoo, such as NIZORAL which I found, for many years, rather helpful with SD. I ended up liking a lemon rinse BETTER than ACV rinse, too. Same dilution as ACV.

This way you can keep your length and not wash it often at all, wear hair up, do a full hair wash around once a week and get by on these scalp washes during the week which is approximately the same amount of time as washing a pixie, once you get the hang of it. It WILL take a little practice to learn how to target the zonage you wish, if you want to try this idea out before making a large cut and starting over.

I COMPLETELY understand your frustration.

You might want to also get the book NATURALLY HEALTHY HAIR by Mary Beth Janssen as there are a lot of wonderful recipes in there that I found helpful in managing my SD until I found the products I now use.

Also as an SD person, you will want to 'scritch'. This helps to lift and loosen debris prior to a hair wash, ensuring a clean scalp after any hair wash (whether scalp or full hair wash). In winter, if you live in snow country, you may well like using a humidifier in the sleeping room.

The other thing I recommend is scritching. Prior to all hair washes, take a very fine tooth comb and gently scratch the scalp. You can purchase, say, a tick comb or flea comb, perhaps, or look for a close-toothed comb.

Then draw the hair away from the forehead, back over the crown and down the back. Taking the fine-toothed comb, angle the comb at around 45 degree angle or steeper to get a slightly deeper 'dig' for lifting debris and detris. Beginning in the center, use little short back & forth strokes, nothing that lifts the hair too much, and slowly proceed back in a row. Continue this process in a methodical manner, such as one side of the head on the top, then the other side. For around the ears, draw the hair to the other side of the head somewhat, lower the ear flap, place the teeth towards the inside edge of the ear where it meets the head, and flip the comb, and do likewise. Be sure to do the temple zonage just above the ear (especially if you wear glasses). The underside hair can be lifted and you can go up the back of the head a little bit. You can also divide the hair in the back down the center, and from this center line, angle the comb as prescribed, and use the small back&forth 'itching' motions, proceeding in a row, slightly down, not straight across.

This will NOT pull hair. You will have perhaps some hair loss yet all hair washes tend to produce a bit more hair loss, too.

This will loosen and help lift detris caked on the scalp skin. Doing so will help a hair wash be yet more productive in removing old scaley buildup of any sort. Expect to see detris dots on the fine-toothed comb and in your hair. It will wash out.

Then wash the hair with a regular shampoo first to break any surface tension. Do so twice, and THEN really wash the scalp skin. Take care to not overly aggravate any tender spots where there's a bump or outbreak, though.

This scritching is a vital part of my process for managing my SD, and now my scalp skin is devoid of cakey buildup, scaliness, bleeding spots and weeping spots because of the products I've discovered that, unfortunately, I can't share here.

You might consider some experimentation with spearmint or peppermint. Just a drop or two in your shampoo or conditioner. With SD you should NOT condition the scalp skin hair. This typically exacerbates the condition.

With SD, and using Nizoral and Lemon Rinses, I did have a greater need to clarify a bit more often.

ALSO, with SD it's imperative to CLEAN YOUR HAIR DETANGLING TOOLS EVERY SINGLE HAIR WASH, and to also consistently use clean pillowcases. I once had a very bad outbreak and foul odor from SD because I didn't realize how dirty my hair comb was and hadn't cleaned it and kept re-introducing old bacteria and old sebum and such back into the hair and scalp skin. SD can creep a bit and get into eyebrows, between eyebrows, eyes, and create some small acne around the forehead hairline and a bit down. So cleanliness is important.

I used the medicated NIZORAL shampoo to clean my detangling combs, but you can also disinfect with a spritz of water and rubbing alcohol. I first use a toothpick to go along the length of each and every tooth to lift up old crud. You'll be surprised at what's there!! Then I use a nail brush to clean well between the comb's teeth and bridge of the comb in HOT water with some of that medicated shampoo. Without fail I do this every single hair wash. I do it in the shower while some shampoo rests on my hair. Then spritz with the water/rubbing alcohol mixture, or put in the top tier of your dishwasher for disinfection. Horn combs can be similarly cleaned if swiped dry immediately. Same for wood combs. These latter two materials should NOT be placed in the dishwasher though.

I found in SD that sodium laureth and sodium lauryl very much aggravated my condition as did any perfumes in the shampoo or coloring agents. PM me with your private email, and I'll give you yet more info that may set you on a path to relief and stellar management of this condition.

Using ACV or Lemon Rinse, I managed most times to have to wash every third day. That's when the itching arose again and bumps formed that wept. I had to catch it right before such outbreaks.

I hope these suggestions help you. Even if you do go shorter for a meanwhile, I suspect that some of these suggestions will prove helpful to you.

I chose to publically reply over a PM because the concern of SEBORRHEIC DERMATITUS (SD) is this little known problem that is very badly attended to in most places. This issue is not curable, but it IS manageable.

heidi w.

marikamt
August 28th, 2009, 08:34 AM
Are your flakes yellow or brownish/ grey and greasy?? Or are they Dry, white scales?? Also, it may be a yeast infection on your scalp??

heidi w.
August 28th, 2009, 08:46 AM
Yeast can occur and is actually a part of the problem with SD. There's an accelerated rate of sebum production, sloughing of skin that doesn't actually slough and rather scales instead, clinging mightily to hair strands.

It's VERY important to get a clear diagnosis from a qualified physician, such as a dermatologist. I assume that has been garnered.

heidi w.

Fractalsofhair
August 28th, 2009, 08:52 AM
I have a very very dry scalp, and I can say that cutting my hair short simply made it worse. I don't have your exact condition, but oiling generally does the job. Try separating your hair into 8ths and then putting the products on your scalp.

rhondalicious
August 28th, 2009, 09:18 AM
My flakes are mostly white, not super greasy unless I am at t he very end of a wash cycle. I was diagnosed with SD about 7 years ago, my dad also has it, and other family members.

Scritching FEELS good, but often my scalp is so tender I get bloody spots from even gentle scritching. Lately I've been doing it with my knitting needle hair pins, the blunt, round ends irritate my scalp less than a whole comb against my head. Also, when I scritch, should I avoid the areas that build up higher? Those are the places that bleed, but once the thick flakes are off the scalp, it feels much better (Well, until I scritch again and scratch off the scab, and it starts all over again. Thus why I've been trying not to scritch - a two edged sword, there)

I'm probably bad, but I ONLY detangle in the shower, so my big wide tooth comb (plastic, smooth) lives in the shower. It has a hook that hangs on the water knob thing.

I already do scalp washes(the fuller kind), I just let the suds run down my length and that's PLENTY. I'll try the other style, because YES, the SD absolutely does start worse at the hairline and top. The other place that drives me batty, and the one that is harder for me to scrub (I don't know why, hair thicker there, maybe?) is just above and behind my ears, and then just under the ball of my skull towards the back of my neck. I have carpal tunnel in both hands, so scubbing those spots underneath all my hair is what causes most of my hairwashing pain/fatigue, and the main reason why I've been thinking of cutting. I'm also half tempted to just do an undercut like I had a decade ago (Then, to be edgy and punk. Now, because I'm crippled in the hands and can't care for my head!). Then I could keep my hair down, and still be waist length, but there'd only be half as much.

I was on cortico-steroids(non-topical) before, it did nothing at all for either of the things they prescribed them for (scalp issues and chronic swollen eustacian tubes), just made me fat and grumpy. My thinning from that (back in January) has pretty much cleared up, I just have a ton of baby hairs around my hairline (that's the reason I cut bangs in spring, to kind of blend them into my hairstyle instead of slicking them down with hair junk, which makes the SD worse!)


And SHELIAANN1969 - I didn't even THINK about fragrances. I'm allergic to perfume! But now that I think about it, yup, I'm slapping perfume on my head every 3 days. Even though I'm cone-free, the condish I use has Parfum as the 5th ingredient!!!

Longlocks3 - is it the Neutrogena T-Sal? Is that the stuff that helps? That is one I haven't tried, I'll have to look around and see if someplace around here stocks it.

So, what conditioners/shampoos can I find that don't have artificial perfumes? Would it be worth making my own conditioner(I already make my own solid perfumes and lip balms, I'd imagine it wouldn't be too much tougher)? If I don't use conditioner at all, I find that my wavy hair tangles terribly and takes FOREVER to detangle - as a mom to 2 young kids, I can't spend an hour detangling, I have to be ready to get up n' go!

Edit: Woohoo, my library has the Naturally Healthy Hair book, I'll have to go check it out.

heidi w.
August 28th, 2009, 09:19 AM
I don't want to tell someone what to do, but SD is an issue of overly wet scalp already, from OVER-production of sebum mixed with scaly skin that simply won't slough off and instead forms a kind of seal (and in bad cases cause hair loss)--in babies this is known as 'cradle cap', and also is compounded by bumps that form with fluid, sometimes yellowy or clear fluid that weeps and other times, if aggravated enough, bleeds. The bumps are quite painful and very itchy.

This is not a condition where oiling the scalp skin will help, typically. If one truly has SD, oiling will only make it ten times worse as it adds to what's on the scalp skin and creates an environment for more festering, more wetness, more yeast to rage, and more imbalance of pH.

For those not in the know, SD is a particularly bad form of dandruff. There are dry dandruffs and wet dandruffs. This is the latter.

For each person, the same medicated dandruff shampoos will not work per se. There is also a degree factor in this condition. Some have it quite bad--where it can be around ears, eyes, even sometimes a corner of the nose or mouth, or elsewhere on the body, such as armpits, groin, under chest, and others have a mere touch of it.

If one uses a medicated shampoo, often folks use these improperly. Notably, it's important to ensure the shampoo reaches the scalp skin itself and then is LEFT ON for several minutes, such as 5 minutes, to 'treat' or 'medicate' the skin. One may need to separate hair. ALSO, if you have some buildup, it's imperative to do an initial wash with shampoo of your choice to simply break up the surface tension and to begin to break down any sebum that is possibly slightly caked and sealing against penetration of shampoo. THEN use the medicated shampoo once that tension is broken. (You can tell there's a 'barrier' if you will because it will take several moments for the hair to become fullly wet with water. This 'barrier' will resist the water.) Further, using fairly warm water may be very useful in better cleansing. Too tepid of water may not allow shampoo to emulsify well and thus spread onto the skin itself.

I personally fared reasonably well with Nizoral, BUT this leaves a coating on the hair, so I had to scalp wash rather frequently.

Hair washing more frequently, especially of the scalp skin is required. Piling stuff, such as oils or conditioner, for example, on to scalp skin can greatly exacerbate the condition.

This condition is very much an issue related to hygiene. This is not to say that those with SD are unhygienic, BUT to manage the condition, keeping that scalp skin able to 'breathe' (removing the scaliness and excess waxy ester that skin tidbits can get lost in, and not allow this to sit overly long on the scalp skin to become hardened or yellow or worse, gray/grey in color) is vital. This means a bit more frequent washing than those with no SD. AND I can't emphasize enough the importance of keeping hair detangling tools and pillowcases clean.

http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/common/skin/disorders/157.html

http://mayoclinic.com/health/seborrheic-dermatitis/DS00984
BE SURE TO PROCEED THROUGH THE PAGES

Patchy scaling or thick crusts on the scalp
Yellow or white scales that may attach to the hair shaft
Red, greasy skin covered with flaky white or yellow scales
Itching or soreness
Skin flakes or dandruff

Seborrheic dermatitis predominately affects the scalp, but it can occur between folds of skin and on skin rich in oil glands.

Though the exact cause of seborrheic dermatitis isn't known, several contributing factors seem to play a role, including:


A yeast (fungus) called malassezia that grows in the oily secretion found on the skin (sebum) along with bacteria — antifungal treatments, such as ketoconazole (Nizoral), are often effective, supporting the idea that yeast is a contributing factor
Stress and fatigue
Change of season — outbreaks are usually worse in the winter
Neurological conditions — seborrheic dermatitis may also occur more frequently in people who have certain neurological conditions, such as Parkinson's disease
HIV/AIDS —
people with HIV/AIDS have an increased risk of seborrheic dermatitis


http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000501/2703.html
This site has pictures of what it looks like in more advanced cases.
KNOW THAT SD CAN OCCUR ANYWHERE ON THE BODY WHERE THERE'S AN ABUNDANCE OF SEBACIOUS GLANDS AND WHERE THE ENVIRONMENT IS MOIST AND WARM.

heidi w.

heidi w.
August 28th, 2009, 09:31 AM
My flakes are mostly white, not super greasy unless I am at t he very end of a wash cycle. I was diagnosed with SD about 7 years ago, my dad also has it, and other family members.

Scritching FEELS good, but often my scalp is so tender I get bloody spots from even gentle scritching. Lately I've been doing it with my knitting needle hair pins, the blunt, round ends irritate my scalp less than a whole comb against my head. Also, when I scritch, should I avoid the areas that build up higher? Those are the places that bleed, but once the thick flakes are off the scalp, it feels much better (Well, until I scritch again and scratch off the scab, and it starts all over again. Thus why I've been trying not to scritch - a two edged sword, there)

I'm probably bad, but I ONLY detangle in the shower, so my big wide tooth comb (plastic, smooth) lives in the shower. It has a hook that hangs on the water knob thing.

I already do scalp washes(the fuller kind), I just let the suds run down my length and that's PLENTY. I'll try the other style, because YES, the SD absolutely does start worse at the hairline and top. The other place that drives me batty, and the one that is harder for me to scrub (I don't know why, hair thicker there, maybe?) is just above and behind my ears, and then just under the ball of my skull towards the back of my neck. I have carpal tunnel in both hands, so scubbing those spots underneath all my hair is what causes most of my hairwashing pain/fatigue, and the main reason why I've been thinking of cutting. I'm also half tempted to just do an undercut like I had a decade ago (Then, to be edgy and punk. Now, because I'm crippled in the hands and can't care for my head!). Then I could keep my hair down, and still be waist length, but there'd only be half as much.

I was on cortico-steroids(non-topical) before, it did nothing at all for either of the things they prescribed them for (scalp issues and chronic swollen eustacian tubes), just made me fat and grumpy. My thinning from that (back in January) has pretty much cleared up, I just have a ton of baby hairs around my hairline (that's the reason I cut bangs in spring, to kind of blend them into my hairstyle instead of slicking them down with hair junk, which makes the SD worse!)


And SHELIAANN1969 - I didn't even THINK about fragrances. I'm allergic to perfume! But now that I think about it, yup, I'm slapping perfume on my head every 3 days. Even though I'm cone-free, the condish I use has Parfum as the 5th ingredient!!!

Longlocks3 - is it the Neutrogena T-Sal? Is that the stuff that helps? That is one I haven't tried, I'll have to look around and see if someplace around here stocks it.

So, what conditioners/shampoos can I find that don't have artificial perfumes? Would it be worth making my own conditioner(I already make my own solid perfumes and lip balms, I'd imagine it wouldn't be too much tougher)? If I don't use conditioner at all, I find that my wavy hair tangles terribly and takes FOREVER to detangle - as a mom to 2 young kids, I can't spend an hour detangling, I have to be ready to get up n' go!

Edit: Woohoo, my library has the Naturally Healthy Hair book, I'll have to go check it out.


I can help you. Please PM me with your personal email, and I will explain the need for this privately.

Naturally Healthy Hair has recipes for making one's own shampoo and conditioners.

Yes, SD can run in families.

Sites where one has a bump tends to re-occur in the same exact location, and the zonages of ears and back of head at the base are VERY common SD outbreak zonages. It's hard because the itchiness is maddening, but TRY NOT TO SCRATCH these and let these heal.

I'm going to help you solve this problem. I did, and the cost is worth every penny! You will be able to get up and go!

If you can, use a tweezer to lift a scale instead of scratching it in any way. That'll be relief. It comes off in a sheet, and with tweezers you can avoid pulling a hair out. With scratching, you'll get the sheet off but it'll form again cause the site bled or wept. Also, this method means you might lose an otherwise healthy hair.

I STRONGLY ADVOCATE that SD, Psoriasis, Exzema folks get a shower head filter!!! Get that water as clean as you can. I softened my water, and then also have a shower head filter. You can do this for around $25, the shower head filter. Be sure to buy a filter that's easily replaceable. Religiously replace the filter. Water quality can affect the condition to some extent.

WASH THAT COMB and any tool you put in your hair (see my instructions above and follow them; it makes a difference)! Make sure it's clean. Your scritching comb, you can use it to very gently help to work in medicated shampoo on scalp skin.

Right, SD does not respond to steroid anything--to the best of my knowledge.

You can use conditioner without EVER touching the scalp skin. Lean way over to one side and you can condition pretty high up on the hair length. Just don't apply it to the scalp skin.

Yes, Neutrogena T-Sal has the salycylic acid in it.

heidi w.

AutumnLeaves
August 28th, 2009, 09:36 AM
Just an added thought to Heidi's wonderful guidance. When my oldest daughter was born, her doc gave me a small, soft, scrub brush and I was instructed to use it on her scalp to prevent the formation of cradle cap. It worked wonders and was gentle enough that it did not hurt her. I couldn't find a similar brush when I had my second daughter but used one of those small baby brushes instead when I shampooed her hair.

It might help to use something similar when following Heidi W's suggestion for using medicated shampoos properly. This may help slough off the buildup of sebum/dead skin cells. Neither of my girls ever had cradle cap, nor did my grandbabies when they lived with me and I was doing their baths and hair for their moms/my daughters.

Again, just thinking aloud and sparked by Heidi's words of wisdom.

Zombiekins
August 28th, 2009, 09:45 AM
Your scalp sounds a little bit like my sister's. It's dry, flaky, and often has scabby blood spots from her scratching. I assumed it was from harsh shampoos ravaging her scalp (her hair is terribly dry down the length), now I wonder if it's a combination of things....

Anyway, a couple of years ago I got a flaky scalp problem pretty much out of the blue. If I scratched at my scalp there would be flakes, even after washing, and by the third day after washing it was awful. I hated wearing my hair down and even up (my hair is kind of dark so the flakes showed up really well). Scritching my scalp only loosened up more, there was never an end. A few months in to the flaky scalp I joined a gym and went swimming in the pool a couple of times and - viola - no more flaky scalp. It was weird, just kind of vanished as quickly as it came. Since that point I've had one other case of flaky scalp - it seems to happen after visiting my family - and swimming once in the gym pool took care of it again.

I'm not suggesting it could fix your issues, as they sound pretty serious, but maybe it's worth a shot.

heidi w.
August 28th, 2009, 09:50 AM
Just an added thought to Heidi's wonderful guidance. When my oldest daughter was born, her doc gave me a small, soft, scrub brush and I was instructed to use it on her scalp to prevent the formation of cradle cap. It worked wonders and was gentle enough that it did not hurt her. I couldn't find a similar brush when I had my second daughter but used one of those small baby brushes instead when I shampooed her hair.

It might help to use something similar when following Heidi W's suggestion for using medicated shampoos properly. This may help slough off the buildup of sebum/dead skin cells. Neither of my girls ever had cradle cap, nor did my grandbabies when they lived with me and I was doing their baths and hair for their moms/my daughters.

Again, just thinking aloud and sparked by Heidi's words of wisdom.

ah, GREAT SUGGESTION. I wonder that if you go to a pet store and get the uber soft boar bristle brushes for doggie coats that this might work? Regular BBB brushes sold are likely too stiff. But I have found nearly baby soft BBBs at the local Petco!

ALSO, I just read that if you have a lot of scaliness & need to remove it, you can apply a warm, damp compress of mineral oil or olive oil to the site to help remove that scaliness. This will soften things up and allow a hair wash to be productive. Then I would wash the hair because you don't want that sitting on the scalp skin and drying either.

heidi w.

heidi w.
August 28th, 2009, 09:51 AM
Your scalp sounds a little bit like my sister's. It's dry, flaky, and often has scabby blood spots from her scratching. I assumed it was from harsh shampoos ravaging her scalp (her hair is terribly dry down the length), now I wonder if it's a combination of things....

Anyway, a couple of years ago I got a flaky scalp problem pretty much out of the blue. If I scratched at my scalp there would be flakes, even after washing, and by the third day after washing it was awful. I hated wearing my hair down and even up (my hair is kind of dark so the flakes showed up really well). Scritching my scalp only loosened up more, there was never an end. A few months in to the flaky scalp I joined a gym and went swimming in the pool a couple of times and - viola - no more flaky scalp. It was weird, just kind of vanished as quickly as it came. Since that point I've had one other case of flaky scalp - it seems to happen after visiting my family - and swimming once in the gym pool took care of it again.

I'm not suggesting it could fix your issues, as they sound pretty serious, but maybe it's worth a shot.

That is accurate. SD can appear and disappear like this; however, I did find swimming in chlorinated pool helped actually.

heidi w.

rhondalicious
August 28th, 2009, 09:51 AM
OK, shower head filters - can I find those at the hardware store? I know my city has all sorts of icky stuff in the water, every year they send information letters to residents to let us know what percentage of nasty things are in what we drink/wash in. We already filter our drinking water, and got the water softener last summer (which has helped SO MUCH in the bits of SD I used to get in other parts of my body, the worst was armpits, and that's all gone now). I generally only get SD in my eyebrows if I'm REALLY stressed out, thankfully.

I actually have a cradle cap brush(my baby girl had cradle cap), but since my hair is so thick, the soft little bristles on it never even reach the scalp (that's one of the other things I thought about regarding cutting my hair! I have the brush sitting in my bathroom cabinet, taunting me!)

Tweezing the flakes is a good idea - I've done that before, but often I get them where they surround a hair or two, and it's awfully fiddly to slide it down the full length of my hair! Sometimes I can crumple them and they pop off the hair, but sometimes they are just very stubborn. And of course, I notice those stuck ones the most in the 10 minutes before I leave the house for a dance performance, and they are the flakes that don't just brush off!

Mostly, the parts of my hair that need conditioning/moisturizer start about 4 inches from my scalp, I'll try just conditioning from that part on down - I'll have to see if the local health food store has any shampoo without artificial fragrances in it, see if that helps things, as well.

Once, when my hair was much shorter, my doctor recommended scrubbing my scalp with a sea salt mix. I haven't dare try it with long hair, but would something like that help?

So, if I switch to a shampoo bar, I'll want to wash with that first, then the medicated shampoo, right? Maybe I'll give Nizoral another try, I still have 1/4 of a bottle under my sink that I think is still good. I always just used it straight, and didn't do any sort of a pre-wash.

Also, about how often should I change around my pillowcase?

Isilme
August 28th, 2009, 09:52 AM
I don't know if this will help, but on the label of my bottle of jojoba oil it says that it helps with this condition.

heatherdazy
August 28th, 2009, 09:54 AM
If you only have to do the treatment twice a week, why don't you go into a salon and have it done? It is very easy for a stylist to reach every area on your scalp... that's how we apply color.

To have it shampooed then that stuff applied but no blow out wouldn't cost much. If you find an independent stylist (rather than an employee who will likely be required to charge you for a blow out as well) I can't imagine her charging you more than $5 for something so quick and easy, especially if you're bringing in your own product. She may even braid it for you if you want.

Elbereth
August 28th, 2009, 09:55 AM
I think that if your shampoo is gentle enough. For me, soap based shampoo bars work wonderfully, but other methods could also work. If your shampoo is very gentle, you don't absolutely need a conditioner. You might be able to get away with oiling only. Say, a couple of drops of jojoba applied to your length.

You could supplement that with making a homemade deep treatment every now and then, using natural moisturizing ingredients like aloe vera gel, egg, oils etc (depending on your hair type). The bottom line is...you don't NEED chemicals to keep your hair clean and healthy. Women have had great, long hair for millenia while the modern beauty industry has been around for barely 50 years.

Fractalsofhair
August 28th, 2009, 09:56 AM
I did get bloody spots and white flakes from a very dry scalp. Separating your hair is probably what will help you the most in washing it. Whole food makes unscented shampoos and conditioners(recently reformulated sadly), under their 365 brand. You can often get unscented soap bars, which work well for some people. Do essential oils bother you? Is there a cheap local salon where you could pay $10 or so dollars to have your hair washed for you? (A cost cutters or such would be good for this. You wouldn't need to pay for a blowout or even detangling in all likelyhood and may get a discount if you ask for one and bring your own products) Do you have a friend or partner who can help you get the back of your scalp?

heidi w.
August 28th, 2009, 11:10 AM
OK, shower head filters - can I find those at the hardware store? I know my city has all sorts of icky stuff in the water, every year they send information letters to residents to let us know what percentage of nasty things are in what we drink/wash in. We already filter our drinking water, and got the water softener last summer (which has helped SO MUCH in the bits of SD I used to get in other parts of my body, the worst was armpits, and that's all gone now). I generally only get SD in my eyebrows if I'm REALLY stressed out, thankfully.

I actually have a cradle cap brush(my baby girl had cradle cap), but since my hair is so thick, the soft little bristles on it never even reach the scalp (that's one of the other things I thought about regarding cutting my hair! I have the brush sitting in my bathroom cabinet, taunting me!)

Tweezing the flakes is a good idea - I've done that before, but often I get them where they surround a hair or two, and it's awfully fiddly to slide it down the full length of my hair! Sometimes I can crumple them and they pop off the hair, but sometimes they are just very stubborn. And of course, I notice those stuck ones the most in the 10 minutes before I leave the house for a dance performance, and they are the flakes that don't just brush off!

Mostly, the parts of my hair that need conditioning/moisturizer start about 4 inches from my scalp, I'll try just conditioning from that part on down - I'll have to see if the local health food store has any shampoo without artificial fragrances in it, see if that helps things, as well.

Once, when my hair was much shorter, my doctor recommended scrubbing my scalp with a sea salt mix. I haven't dare try it with long hair, but would something like that help?

So, if I switch to a shampoo bar, I'll want to wash with that first, then the medicated shampoo, right? Maybe I'll give Nizoral another try, I still have 1/4 of a bottle under my sink that I think is still good. I always just used it straight, and didn't do any sort of a pre-wash.

Also, about how often should I change around my pillowcase?


Yes, shower head filters can be purchased at any hardware store, or places such as Menards, Lowes, Home Depot. Some fit on the arm of the shower head, the bracket that sticks out of the wall; there are others that fit inside a shower head itself, such as a handheld shower head (if yours is an 'open' system--some handhelds you can't get the cap off). Again, be sure to buy a brand you can easily find replacement filters.

Uh, yeah, my city sends out those letters too. My area the water is mightily hard.

Yes, when I let my SD go a little too long or don't change the pillowcase or have a bit of stress (I find it sometimes flares in combo with my mensus although I am in transition!), and it gets between my eyebrows, and I have a spot in the very corner of my left eye that I've been fighting recently. A new flare-up spot.

What if you were to lean forward and well over, draw hair over you and brush from underneath with that cradle cap brush? I know it kinda makes some tangliness when you go back to standing up....but maybe......whatever you do, don't flip hair: draw it in the direction gently to help minimize tangling.

Yes, SD bumps and scales feel like they show at the most important times! The uber stubborn scales, try the hot compress with mineral or olive oil, spread the hair away as best you can, and apply to the site, and see if that helps.

The last time someone I knew tried a sea salt application hair length they ended up with pretty crunchy hair and had to chelate to get the bond removed at the cortex level. I have heard some people did well with a Brown Sugar scrub -- not sure about this for SD? I would be very interested in any experiments you conduct and how they work out for you. Be sure to try one thing at a time so you know very clearly the outcome and results.

Do your best to keep your fingers/fingernails off the scalp skin. Tons of aggravation derives from oils on fingers and dirt that you may not even be aware of. Use a tool whenever possible, such as that cradle cap brush, or scritching. Make sure tools are CLEAN.

I say two nights on a pillowcase side, turn over, 2 nights, and then wash. This will help control any creeping to other areas of face.

In groin, armpits and even, say, nose, you can use ACV. This is pH balancing on the skin. Diluted but maybe not quite as much as for a hair rinse. This also will help control any odor from it. During application ACV smells, but once rinsed off, you're all good. (Also helps with perspiration.) I have actually taken a dab of ACV straight out of the bottle, on a Q-tip and applied directly to a sore SD spot. It actually helped to dry it up!

heidi w.

Deborah
August 28th, 2009, 01:10 PM
Sally Beauty Supply sells a nice conditioner called CURE CARE CONDITIONER that contains no fragrance or coloring. It's quite good for CO-washing, and probably good as a light conditioner as well. It's $2.79 for a 20 ounce bottle, but they sell it by the gallon for a good deal cheaper. Also, if you get a Sally card, everything is discounted a little.

I'm sorry you have to go through this. Good luck with finding a cure for your problem. :flower: I do agree that cutting your hair short will not likely help your scalp issue at all, but if you feel that it would make it easier for you to more vigorously fight the problem, then cutting may be worth considering. But, don't be too quick to cut. :scissors: You could find yourself with a hair length that you dislike, PLUS the scalp issue. :shake:

heidi w.
August 28th, 2009, 01:26 PM
If you only have to do the treatment twice a week, why don't you go into a salon and have it done? It is very easy for a stylist to reach every area on your scalp... that's how we apply color.

To have it shampooed then that stuff applied but no blow out wouldn't cost much. If you find an independent stylist (rather than an employee who will likely be required to charge you for a blow out as well) I can't imagine her charging you more than $5 for something so quick and easy, especially if you're bringing in your own product. She may even braid it for you if you want.

I understand the perspective this suggestion is coming from, and it's a lovely idea.

However, the problem we have here is the Seborrheic Dermatitus, and most salons are using products and techniques that greatly exacerbate the issue. Indeed, many stylists are not aware of issues such as SD and what it looks like. I was lucky because my hair guru saw the early signs of the reddish rash and bumps in a few locales on my scalp skin and told me to go see a dermatologist immediately. He also was the one who helped me understand about skin pH, along with my dermatologist. I just got very lucky.

But those with SD have incredibly TENDER scalp and issues with opening the sores with too much scrubbing action. And the usual shampoos with coloring agents, perfumes and sulfates tend to aggravate the situation.

I am not trying to rain on your parade. I don't actually know many stylists that actually would say yeah, I'll wash your hair with this product you brought in, and certainly not for so little cost. I have several friends who went to beauty school and they consistently, across the board, report there is little-to-no-training identifying scalp skin or even facial skin issues. Only some experience reveals it.

I've interviewed those who actually create shampoo products for market and most of them have never even heard of SD, yet it's quite prevalent. I brought this issue to light to one purveyor of products and only recently has this person began to look into designing a 'clean' shampoo to effect management of the problem. This would include those who specialize, even, in long hair care. Indeed, when I used to get salon magazines for professional stylists (2 mags, one even for Latino/Latina stylists) not once did I come across an article on dealing with clients who have scalp skin issues.

This is part of the reason I posted publically instead of PMing privately: this type of issue and topic is very important to a wider audience than the iniator of this thread. Those with SD are driven crazy by their symptoms, and it's upsetting to lose hair behind it.

I at least want to be a testimonial to the idea that one can have lovely, long tresses and live with SD and endeavor to have a healthy scalp skin that breathes and isn't all caked up and bleeding and scaling.

ETA: I'm not saying no one would, but it might be a bit difficult to find the way most salons are run. I think your idea is entirely well-intentioned. Maybe a one-person show in a private house might be up for this type of arrangement.......

heidi w.

heatherdazy
August 28th, 2009, 02:11 PM
By no means am I suggesting that the stylist would automatically know all about your scalp and how to handle it. We are not medical professionals and are not allowed to diagnose/recommend treatments, only able to refer to a dr when we see something unusual. You would certainly have to explain your situation, bring in products approved by your dr, etc.

The stylist wouldn't be able to advise you on dealing with your scalp issues, they would just have an easier time applying things to the scalp evenly and thoroughly in a timely manner than you or a friend would.

My suggestion actually came because I've known many stylists who have regular clients come in for unusual services like this and it is very common for clients to bring in their own products if they have allergies or other medical problems. (Color and perms would be different, of course.)

I have a coworker with a client who has knee length hair. She comes in five days with her own shampoo, has it shampooed three times and not conditioned, then leaves with wet hair. I believe my coworker charges her $20/month.

Another coworker does a wash and set every week for a very very low price because her client has a medical issue that prevents her being able to lift her arms to style her hair and her only income is a few hundred dollars a month in disability.

A former coworker had a client who would come in every morning with detangled hair and have it put into a single french braid for $1 at a salon where updos were $60 an hour, because it only took her a minute or so to do.

Services are generally priced to account for time and product used plus special skill or ongoing education, so I don't think the price I mentioned was a low estimate.

heidi w.
August 28th, 2009, 03:07 PM
WOW! That's awesome! Live and learn. Kindness does exist in the world.

Thanks for sharing.

Just goes to show.
heidi w.

3Girls
August 29th, 2009, 05:54 AM
Oh my goodness - THANK YOU!!

I've posted earlier about my *scalp issues*, and this is exactly what I have - this is the name the GP and biochemist gave for it but I couldn't remember.

Lots of really helpful tips here and so nice to know that i don't have to put up with it.

Thanks again!
T

Periwinkle
August 29th, 2009, 06:27 AM
I remember seeing a thread in the henna forum about how to henna your roots and one of the suggested methods was making several braids a way out from the head and applying the henna to the loose hair. Perhaps something like that would help you reach your scalp? If it were me, I'd probably do something like this:

1) Divide the hair so that you have 3 sections: one on the left, one on the right and one in the middle (so the middle one would be like a mohawk if you cut the rest off).

2) Twist/tie up the two side sections, so that you just have the middle one loose.

3) Divide the middle section in two, like you're parting your hair.

4) Braid each of these sections, leaving loose hair near the scalp.

5) Depending on how much hair there is, do the same for the side sections or do one braid for each side section.

I don't know how well it would work, but possibly it would enable you to get your hair away from your scalp enough to use the brush?

Lilli
August 29th, 2009, 08:23 AM
I just want to put in a plug for T-sal and other salicylic acid products - awesome with the itching and flaking. Also treating the yeast helps a lot. Nizoral did work for me.

But I vote don't cut it - try everything else first.

Fractalsofhair
August 29th, 2009, 10:51 AM
I understand the perspective this suggestion is coming from, and it's a lovely idea.

However, the problem we have here is the Seborrheic Dermatitus, and most salons are using products and techniques that greatly exacerbate the issue. Indeed, many stylists are not aware of issues such as SD and what it looks like. I was lucky because my hair guru saw the early signs of the reddish rash and bumps in a few locales on my scalp skin and told me to go see a dermatologist immediately. He also was the one who helped me understand about skin pH, along with my dermatologist. I just got very lucky.

But those with SD have incredibly TENDER scalp and issues with opening the sores with too much scrubbing action. And the usual shampoos with coloring agents, perfumes and sulfates tend to aggravate the situation.

I am not trying to rain on your parade. I don't actually know many stylists that actually would say yeah, I'll wash your hair with this product you brought in, and certainly not for so little cost. I have several friends who went to beauty school and they consistently, across the board, report there is little-to-no-training identifying scalp skin or even facial skin issues. Only some experience reveals it.

I've interviewed those who actually create shampoo products for market and most of them have never even heard of SD, yet it's quite prevalent. I brought this issue to light to one purveyor of products and only recently has this person began to look into designing a 'clean' shampoo to effect management of the problem. This would include those who specialize, even, in long hair care. Indeed, when I used to get salon magazines for professional stylists (2 mags, one even for Latino/Latina stylists) not once did I come across an article on dealing with clients who have scalp skin issues.

This is part of the reason I posted publically instead of PMing privately: this type of issue and topic is very important to a wider audience than the iniator of this thread. Those with SD are driven crazy by their symptoms, and it's upsetting to lose hair behind it.

I at least want to be a testimonial to the idea that one can have lovely, long tresses and live with SD and endeavor to have a healthy scalp skin that breathes and isn't all caked up and bleeding and scaling.

ETA: I'm not saying no one would, but it might be a bit difficult to find the way most salons are run. I think your idea is entirely well-intentioned. Maybe a one-person show in a private house might be up for this type of arrangement.......

heidi w.

It depends on the salon. If the salon is a brand salon(Aveda, Paul Mitchell etc.) they might flat out refuse to use your own products, even if you state you have "severe allergies"(as I do at times to fragrance. Aveda claimed their products only have natural plant like fragrances so I shouldn't be bothered...). If it's a no specific brand salon, that may sell certain products, you should be fine. A wash at my salon costs $10, and a person with scalp issues may simply have to explain it and how they want their scalp washed. It's a lot harder for a stylist to mess up a wash if you tell them how you want your hair washed(gentle, tough etc) and provide your own products than it is for them to mess up a haircut...

ll
August 29th, 2009, 05:04 PM
A strong rosemary tea can work wonders for this issue. (Note that rosemary can temporarily darken light hair.) Put 1/4 cup dried rosemary in a mug, add boiling water, let sit for about eight hours, and then strain out the rosemary. Pour onto scalp (over a sink or in the shower), gently wring out excess from hair, leave on for about an hour or so, and then shampoo out. Although I've never heard of any problems, it's always advisable to try new things out on a small area first. HTH :flower:

Rivanariko
August 29th, 2009, 07:20 PM
Heidi W., THANK YOU for responding in a public post! I have been dealing with scalp issues that sound very similar to what you are describing with SD for years. According to my mom, I had pretty severe cradle cap when I was a baby, and I can remember going through product after product when I was in elementary school trying to find something, anything, to get my oozing, bloody dandruff under control. My parents were about to take me to a dermatologist when my GP suggested we try Nizoral. I used it religiously for several years (actually, according to the instructions on the bottle, I OVER used it) and it cleared up. However, I have had scaley, weepy, itchy and flakey skin problems behind my ears, around my armpits, and, more recently, on my chest in the past few years. I never dreamed that they might be related. I'm going to go do some more research now, I might need to try to fit in an appointment with a dermatologist before my health insurance expires in October!

Again, THANK YOU so much!