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Paliele
August 22nd, 2009, 10:05 PM
So I've been reading Miss Manners' Guide to Rearing Perfect Children (because...um...I don't know why. I don't have kids, nor do I plan on any in the near future. I tend to devour any book I can get my hands on, relevant to my current life circumstances or not.) and I came across one entry asking the age-apropriateness of long hair. I found Miss Manner's answer very interesting, and thought I would share:

"Fashion has retained the essence of the old-fashioned custom of a lady's putting up her hair on reaching maturity by frequently assuring women that shourt hair is more flattering and more appropriate than long to anyone over twenty-five. Actually, long hair put up achieves the same effect, only (in the opinion of such romantics as Miss Manners) better. As you will learn from looking at nineteenth-century fashion plates or paintings, the basic "bun" can be adapted to any type of hair or face, and a slightly slipshod look is considered part of the charm. It is as appropriate for daytime as for evening, when fancy combs or flowers may be added. Besides, when your husband begins to look forward to watching the ritual of your slowly taking down your hair at night, for his eyes alone, daytime fashions will seem less important to you both."

Interesting, yes?

Fiferstone
August 22nd, 2009, 10:19 PM
Very! Hooray for Miss Manners :) I am a regular reader of her column in the Boston Sunday Globe Magazine and I find I rarely disagree with her. It's interesting that the "avatar" that accompanies her column is a pixie-cut. I wonder if she's growing it out in real life?

Themyst
August 22nd, 2009, 10:42 PM
:hmm: I don't know. It seems she is acknowledging the fact that long hair is unacceptable in society after the age of twenty-five, but you do not have to cut your hair to conform, you can wear it up and hide it all in a bun. :confused:

RavennaNight
August 22nd, 2009, 10:55 PM
I'm not a fan of the idea that women over 25 must wear their hair up in a bun. The way she describes buns she is equating them with what is acceptable for "older" women. I personally don't like buns, as they are very severe for my face, and the aesthetic quality of a sock bun is the exception. Age is just a number. Requiring a woman of a certain age to wear a bun is as offensive as requiring a woman of a certain age to cut their hair off. And not all husbands love their women hiding their hair in buns all day. My husband shares my dislike of buns, and the only updo he likes is a ponytail. I think this article adds to the misconception that buns are "old lady styles." and I do not appreciate the age cutoff being lowered again, now to 25. First it was 40. Then 30. Now 25? Gimmie a break.

Amraann
August 22nd, 2009, 11:12 PM
It is a very antiquated notion that woman with long hair should not be over a certain age. (or put it up if they are)
Miss Manners lost me at the notion of "perfect children" LMAO!!!

Is she still living in the fairy tale land of Little house on the Prairie?
Hell, most people do not even have husbands anymore.
IMO the chick needs to retire.

apynip
August 22nd, 2009, 11:13 PM
the hair up after 25 was originally around 20 back in the 1800's and before.
This is what i'm gunna guess what she is reffering to when she says to cut or wear your hair up after 25 but dont take my word for it.

most all young ladies/girls wore their hair down or partually up to show that they were young i will use the term maidens due to the fact that i work at a renaissance festival.
Once they became of age they were required to put their hair up otherwise it would deem them harlots or very naughty ladies.
before Queen Elizabeth I took the throne it was required for sanitation reasons to have your hair covered but that was nixed after Bess took the throne.
In teh victorian era it was a huge deal for a girl to beable to put all her hair up and normally got her 'comming of age' picture taken at this point. i have several family photographs that hint torwards this.
this is just my guess though.
All in all the basic 'manners' supposedly still applies.

apynip
August 22nd, 2009, 11:17 PM
It is a very antiquated notion that woman with long hair should not be over a certain age. (or put it up if they are)
Miss Manners lost me at the notion of "perfect children" LMAO!!!

Is she still living in the fairy tale land of Little house on the Prairie?
Hell, most people do not even have husbands anymore.
IMO the chick needs to retire.

I agree that its a very old tradition and there is a very overrated notion that one can have 'perfect' children although her books are only a guide to raise what i like to call the 'nuclear' family. (1950's referance.)

Though i disagree that she lives in the ideals of little house on the prairie. Manners have always been important in life and i use them even as a 17 year old and respect them. She does have a some what severe ideal for them but its a guideline not a rule book.

Fiferstone
August 22nd, 2009, 11:18 PM
I got a totally different read on it. It seemed to me that she was saying it was not necessary to have short hair after a certain age, and that this fixation that you must have short hair once you are XX age or older was an outmoded ARTIFACT from the time when mature women wore their hair up as a matter of course, and I also thought she was praising the versatility of long hair, the fact that updos can be flattering to any face shape or hair type, and that there was a certain special pleasure in having the long hair as a "secret" to share between intimate partners. I didn't get the sense at all that she was bashing long hair or dictating how it must be worn.

color me confused...

BranwenWolf
August 22nd, 2009, 11:27 PM
I like that she supports the idea that buns aren't just for grandmas or women looking to be inconspicuous.
I also think letting my hair down for a man is sexy.

Very interesting article. I loved Miss Manners take on phones too- that they're annoying and rude.

pradabacon
August 23rd, 2009, 12:25 AM
I got a totally different read on it. It seemed to me that she was saying it was not necessary to have short hair after a certain age, and that this fixation that you must have short hair once you are XX age or older was an outmoded ARTIFACT from the time when mature women wore their hair up as a matter of course, and I also thought she was praising the versatility of long hair, the fact that updos can be flattering to any face shape or hair type, and that there was a certain special pleasure in having the long hair as a "secret" to share between intimate partners. I didn't get the sense at all that she was bashing long hair or dictating how it must be worn.

color me confused...

That's pretty much how I interpreted it, too. The idea that she was saying we have to wear it up in public didn't occur to me until the others said it.

Now, I have to say it does seem a little like she is implying that putting the hair up is more appropriate after a certain age, but I still give Miss Manners a thumbsup. :thumbsup: I like her, too.

And I'll always wear my hair however I please. I don't give a rat's patootie what anyoneelse thinks of it. As long as DH and I are happy (well, mostly me :D), it's all good. He tends not to like buns much. He likes braids and ponytails...which is what I prefer as well.

Stevy
August 23rd, 2009, 04:52 AM
It is a very antiquated notion that woman with long hair should not be over a certain age. (or put it up if they are)
Miss Manners lost me at the notion of "perfect children" LMAO!!!

Is she still living in the fairy tale land of Little house on the Prairie?
Hell, most people do not even have husbands anymore.
IMO the chick needs to retire.

I've read the book, and I'm pretty certain the title is meant as tongue-in-cheek.

Charentais
August 23rd, 2009, 08:26 AM
Besides, when your husband begins to look forward to watching the ritual of your slowly taking down your hair at night, for his eyes alone, daytime fashions will seem less important to you both."



Oooh, I love this part! If I ever bag me one of those husband-thingies, I'd love to do that.

mellie
August 23rd, 2009, 08:32 AM
Haha, you're awesome Charentais! :D

I wonder if the tradition of putting one's hair up after age 20 was based initially out of practicality when dealing when children, cleaning, cooking and scrubbing all day? I know there is not much more aggravating thing in the world than trying to scrub the bathtub with my hair down...:mad:

Elfling
August 23rd, 2009, 08:38 AM
She's saying that the current "you shouldn't have long hair after XX age" is a holdover from the days when the transition from hair down/pigtails to bun/up marked the coming of age of a girl.

She's supporting long hair.

Belledandy
August 23rd, 2009, 08:51 AM
I didn't get that she was knocking long hair or saying older women had to wear their hair up at all. Binding or putting up the hair has marked the coming of age in many cultures. In times past, the last time a woman would wear her hair down was on her wedding day, so calling out 25 as too young just depends on the era and culture you live in. In Scandinavian cultures there was once the tradition that the bridesmaids would plait the bride's hair into pigtails (A girl's style) one last time before the wedding and then later the mother in law would take it down before the wedding and braid it into a single plait to symbolize her becoming a wife.

marikamt
August 23rd, 2009, 09:00 AM
I got a totally different read on it. It seemed to me that she was saying it was not necessary to have short hair after a certain age, and that this fixation that you must have short hair once you are XX age or older was an outmoded ARTIFACT from the time when mature women wore their hair up as a matter of course, and I also thought she was praising the versatility of long hair, the fact that updos can be flattering to any face shape or hair type, and that there was a certain special pleasure in having the long hair as a "secret" to share between intimate partners. I didn't get the sense at all that she was bashing long hair or dictating how it must be worn.

color me confused...

That it the read I got on it too....... I actually liked the article.....

Carolyn
August 23rd, 2009, 09:23 AM
I got a totally different read on it. It seemed to me that she was saying it was not necessary to have short hair after a certain age, and that this fixation that you must have short hair once you are XX age or older was an outmoded ARTIFACT from the time when mature women wore their hair up as a matter of course, and I also thought she was praising the versatility of long hair, the fact that updos can be flattering to any face shape or hair type, and that there was a certain special pleasure in having the long hair as a "secret" to share between intimate partners. I didn't get the sense at all that she was bashing long hair or dictating how it must be worn.

color me confused...I took it that way too. I like Miss Manners. She writes in a kind of formal way but what she has to say is usually right on.

noelgirl
August 23rd, 2009, 09:25 AM
I just had to laugh at 25 being the designated age. At 25 I barely even feel like an adult, let alone a lady of a "certain age" or what have you. Maybe that's just me.

Elfling
August 23rd, 2009, 09:27 AM
I just had to laugh at 25 being the designated age. At 25 I barely even feel like an adult, let alone a lady of a "certain age" or what have you. Maybe that's just me.
Well yeah, but times have changed :) Miss Manners typically writes from a Victorian/turn of the century perspective.

ole gray mare
August 23rd, 2009, 10:15 AM
I got a totally different read on it. It seemed to me that she was saying it was not necessary to have short hair after a certain age, and that this fixation that you must have short hair once you are XX age or older was an outmoded ARTIFACT from the time when mature women wore their hair up as a matter of course, and I also thought she was praising the versatility of long hair, the fact that updos can be flattering to any face shape or hair type, and that there was a certain special pleasure in having the long hair as a "secret" to share between intimate partners. I didn't get the sense at all that she was bashing long hair or dictating how it must be worn.

This was my read on it too. I felt she was in defense of long hair, how versatile it is, and how truly womanly it can be...not just for young girls.

spidermom
August 23rd, 2009, 10:22 AM
I'm with Fiferstone, too.

I used to read Miss Manners frequently when we subscribed to a newspaper, and she can be quite funny in an understated way. Someone once asked her the correct way to eat potato chips at a party, and she went through a short discussion of the proper plate and how to serve yourself, and then she finished with "and then you pick them up one by one with your fingers and put them into your mouth. Chew with your mouth closed, please."

FreakyGreenEyes
August 23rd, 2009, 10:23 AM
Very nice. I love it when media realizes long hair isn't just for the young (whatever arbitrary/'it' age that happens to be at the moment).

LittleOrca
August 23rd, 2009, 10:26 AM
Besides, when your husband begins to look forward to watching the ritual of your slowly taking down your hair at night, for his eyes alone, daytime fashions will seem less important to you both.

This sounds almost very modest. Not that I am bashing people are are modest in this fashion and keep their hair up or covered for those reasons, but that is the feel I got when I read this. We LHCers know wearing the hair up is a good way to protect it, but making it seem like your hair is an aphrodisiac that drive men (or your husband in this example) wild when it comes down (or is down) and you need to control it sounds very close to other ways women have been told by various religions to control themselves so they don't tempt men. :rolleyes: But then again, it is Miss Manners....

going gray
August 23rd, 2009, 12:26 PM
I too agree, she's simply states no one should cut there hair because they are getting older.

Carolyn
August 23rd, 2009, 02:15 PM
I'm with Fiferstone, too.

I used to read Miss Manners frequently when we subscribed to a newspaper, and she can be quite funny in an understated way. Someone once asked her the correct way to eat potato chips at a party, and she went through a short discussion of the proper plate and how to serve yourself, and then she finished with "and then you pick them up one by one with your fingers and put them into your mouth. Chew with your mouth closed, please."A lot of the mannerly things she gives advice on are really just common sense and common curtesy. I liked her sense of humor too. Sometimes it was so subtle it was hard to get.

rhubarbarin
August 23rd, 2009, 02:57 PM
"Fashion has retained the essence of the old-fashioned custom of a lady's putting up her hair on reaching maturity by frequently assuring women that shourt hair is more flattering and more appropriate than long to anyone over twenty-five. Actually, long hair put up achieves the same effect, only (in the opinion of such romantics as Miss Manners) better. As you will learn from looking at nineteenth-century fashion plates or paintings, the basic "bun" can be adapted to any type of hair or face, and a slightly slipshod look is considered part of the charm. It is as appropriate for daytime as for evening, when fancy combs or flowers may be added. Besides, when your husband begins to look forward to watching the ritual of your slowly taking down your hair at night, for his eyes alone, daytime fashions will seem less important to you both."

Her interpretation doesn't make much sense to me because when women put their hair 'up' it was when they reached adulthood, not mature womanhood or motherhood (matron). Around ages 15-17, or at marriage which happened young, from everything I've read.

Historically though flowing, uncontained hair has either been associated with childhood (innocence) and sexuality.

It was very nice though to read something supporting longer hair. I didn't see that she was saying it should always be up, just that if you are thinking of going short for reasons of 'appropriateness' (and many people are influenced by this) you can keep it long and put it up for the same effect.

Fractalsofhair
August 23rd, 2009, 06:34 PM
I like her take on it. She's supporting long hair!!!

Anyways, her manners may be antiqutdated, but most manners are. Or maybe we all just have poor manners in this era.

JamieLeigh
August 24th, 2009, 08:34 AM
Oprah needs to read Miss Manners. :D

pradabacon
August 24th, 2009, 08:43 AM
^^^For reals. http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu287/hootalicious/lol-1.gif

Honestwitness
August 24th, 2009, 08:56 AM
Hmmm... I usually feel the need to put my hair UP, when I'm in intimate situations with my DH, to keep it out of the way.

nowxisxforever
August 24th, 2009, 10:41 AM
Hmmm... I usually feel the need to put my hair UP, when I'm in intimate situations with my DH, to keep it out of the way.

Me too. I have a quick knot I do to get it out of the way. It's long enough that it gets all over the place and in places I don't really want it to go elsewise.

Norai
August 24th, 2009, 11:02 AM
That sounds like something I would pick up and read for kicks too, and I don't have kids either ;)

David's Bride
August 24th, 2009, 11:37 AM
I didn't get that she was knocking long hair or saying older women had to wear their hair up at all. Binding or putting up the hair has marked the coming of age in many cultures. In times past, the last time a woman would wear her hair down was on her wedding day, so calling out 25 as too young just depends on the era and culture you live in. In Scandinavian cultures there was once the tradition that the bridesmaids would plait the bride's hair into pigtails (A girl's style) one last time before the wedding and then later the mother in law would take it down before the wedding and braid it into a single plait to symbolize her becoming a wife.

This was a beautiful, yet sad, custom. Maybe it's my PMS, but this brought tears to my eyes.

Wicked Princess
August 24th, 2009, 02:10 PM
I have only read a couple articles by Miss Manners, so I'm not too familiar with her, but from what I've seen, I really liked her.

I, too, did not see that she was knocking long hair - to me, it actually seemed that she was giving us an alternative to cutting our hair short if we were tempted into cutting our hair at a certain age, as dictated by current hair fashion. :)

StarShine
August 24th, 2009, 02:23 PM
Is there a set of rules for men to follow as they age so that they are more visually appealing? Why do women always have to be the ones worried about being appropriate?

I'm really not into manners because as a woman, I always find my role very restricted. Some of the crap is beyond antiquated.

I'll be 27 soon, and look forward to many more years wearing my hair down. Mercy me, my husband doesn't even really like buns! Whatever shall I do!

Atlantic
August 24th, 2009, 03:19 PM
Is there a set of rules for men to follow as they age so that they are more visually appealing? Why do women always have to be the ones worried about being appropriate?

You've never read Dress for Success, have you. ;)

RavennaNight
August 24th, 2009, 03:29 PM
Is there a set of rules for men to follow as they age so that they are more visually appealing? Why do women always have to be the ones worried about being appropriate?

I'm really not into manners because as a woman, I always find my role very restricted. Some of the crap is beyond antiquated.

I'll be 27 soon, and look forward to many more years wearing my hair down. Mercy me, my husband doesn't even really like buns! Whatever shall I do!

Exactly. And what littleorca said as well. I don't like the idea that it is proper for a married woman, or a woman of a certain age, to wear her hair up. It sounds restrictive. If me wearing my hair flowing in the breeze is bad manners for someone of my age, and I am only 30 not dead folks, then so be it. I realize she is not k ocking long hair and never said Miss Manners was. But she is still trying to dictate what hairstyle is age appropriate. I disagree with that wholeheartedly. I know many of you ladies love updos and buns and whatnot, but for me personally, that is not why my hair is long. And the thought of hiding it from the world and only showing it to my hubby at night is pretty restrictive too. If it's up in a bun all day and then I take it down it would have weird waves and kinks in it and not be at it's smoothest best. I don't think this scene would be attractive at all!

pradabacon
August 24th, 2009, 08:13 PM
Exactly. And what littleorca said as well. I don't like the idea that it is proper for a married woman, or a woman of a certain age, to wear her hair up. It sounds restrictive. If me wearing my hair flowing in the breeze is bad manners for someone of my age, and I am only 30 not dead folks, then so be it. I realize she is not k ocking long hair and never said Miss Manners was. But she is still trying to dictate what hairstyle is age appropriate. I disagree with that wholeheartedly. I know many of you ladies love updos and buns and whatnot, but for me personally, that is not why my hair is long. And the thought of hiding it from the world and only showing it to my hubby at night is pretty restrictive too. If it's up in a bun all day and then I take it down it would have weird waves and kinks in it and not be at it's smoothest best. I don't think this scene would be attractive at all!

I agree with this 100% I wear my hair down often (or shock and horror, in pigtail braids! :p), and I intend to keep doing so as long as I feel like it.

But I really didn't interpret Miss Manners as saying it was necessary for women of a certain age to wear their hair up, just that an updo is a good alternative to cutting for those who do feel uncomfortable or feel that having it down is somehow inappropriate. For some people, hair is a very sexualized thing and can make them feel conspicuous. I don't feel weird with my hair down, but I can see how others might.

ETA: Actually, now that I think about it, there are some situations where I would feel uncomfortable wearing my hair down. Appearing in court, for example. I absolutely don't think everyone should have to wear their hair up for court, but I personally wouldn't feel right with mine down. I would feel like it made me look younger and less-polished. And on another occasion, that might be exactly the look I'm going for. :) I decide what image I want to project in any given situation and act and dress accordingly. Some ladies might feel most confident wearing their hair up whenever they're in public...that's fine, as long as they aren't telling me I have to.

:shrug:

pradabacon
August 24th, 2009, 08:28 PM
^^^That was my hair UP reply.

*lets hair down*

Hey! Let's write Miss Manners and ask her to clarify what she meant! http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu287/hootalicious/nuts.gif

We could get in the paper, y'all! :cheese:

Sissy
August 24th, 2009, 09:56 PM
It is a very antiquated notion that woman with long hair should not be over a certain age. (or put it up if they are)
Miss Manners lost me at the notion of "perfect children" LMAO!!!

Is she still living in the fairy tale land of Little house on the Prairie?
Hell, most people do not even have husbands anymore.
IMO the chick needs to retire.

ha, good one. Yeah, I thought it was odd sounding and that she is implying long hair might be inappropriate for older women but would be OK if only their husbands see it down.