Flat/thin volume issues et al

[Cheros]

I don't know where to start, so i'll outline my current hair "care" routine.

1. Wake up, get into shower and rinse hair with warm water. Pushing it straight back until it's time for shampoo.
2. A big dollop of shampoo in my hands, and then on to the crown of my head. It gets "rubbed" around until it lathers and then usually I run my hands through my hair in sections to make sure the shampoo reaches all of the hair.
3. Then I rinse it back out starting with the back, and then the rest until it's all gone. Step out shower and freeze to death.
4. Rub relatively dry with terrycloth towel and then go blowdry it on cool.
5. THen when it's pretty dry I let it airdry the rest of the way.
Brush until dry with plastic ball tipped barrel brush.

Currently i'm in the process of buying a new boar bristle brush, microfibre towels and a pure silk pillowcase. And my hair reaches just past my shoulder.

My question is this:
My hair is normally flat and thin, I can get some volume from the process above but it seems to just come from the static frizzy brush.
How do I get my hair to have volume "and" be long-ish ?
And what/how should I cut it, if at all ?
I just want it to be slightly poofy on top so it hides my angular face, creating the illusion of a round and soft face.

[Cheros]

And what would you recommend as a change to my current system ?

[OhioLisa]

How long is your hair now? How long are you wanting to grow it? What kind of shampoo do you use? Do you ever use conditioner?

Just off the top of my head, I am thinking you might be washing too often. Also, rubbing your hair with a towel is never a good idea. Friction = damage, especially for fine, fragile hair. Also, you might want to cut down on brushing, for the same reason. Some of us don't even use brushes at all. A boar bristle brush is only meant for distributing oils in the hair, so unless you have that specific need, it probably will not do much for you.

The truth is, if your hair is fine and thin, it will be difficult to get poof on top at longer lengths without a LOT of product.

[Cheros]

I shower every other day, and wash in the shower.
I have some pictures if that will help, otherwise it's just past shoulder length.

I use Clairol Herbal Essences mositure balancing or something.
I've never used conditioner, I always have that fear of it being too heavy and not doing much.
brushing and rubbing is bad, but it's a habit. That's what the microfibre towels are for, and the brushing is because it gives my hair volume. Otherwise I feel horrible when I walk out the door.

[Sarahmoon]

From your description, I understand you wash your hair every day?
I would recommend to try to wash it less often. Also, try to not "rub" around the shampoo, but gently massage it on your scalp only. You don't need to bring the shampoo to the length of your hair because most of the time, only the hair near the scalp is greasy.
Consider buying a conditioner. It will protect your hair against harsh shampoo.
Blot your hair gently with the towel instead of rubbing it and consider not blow-drying at all but air drying all the way.

If you want your hair to grow longer, it's best to not cut too often, unless you feel your hair is very damaged.
I'm not sure if there are ways to cut it so that it looks more voluminous. I'm not in favour of layers for people with fine, straightish hair because I think it usually makes the ends look even thinner. Some people create a slight poof on top of their head by pinning a bit of hair back.
I hope you'll get more advice and good luck :)

EDIT: oops someone else answered before me... I just wanted to add I used to not use conditioner for the same reason as you, but now I'm using a coneless conditioner I feel it makes my hair less "flat".

[Cheros]

Coneless ?
And I wash it every other day, so like Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

I think without going too far into good and bad shampoo's at the moment, a conditioner might be a good idea.
And the reason I blowdry it is because of college, I have to be out and ready by about 8am. So I don't have a lot of time to wait around, and I don't like going out the house with wet hair.

I can't think of any cuts either, all I ever hear from my mother is layers. Which I never really notice anyway. Pinning back, well that could work but there's the added fact of being a guy. Some things I can get away with, some not so much without being beaten up or noticed.

One thing i'm looking for is a change to my routine, whether it gives it volume or not. As in, should I detangle it before, is it ok to use wrap the towel on my head so it dries quicker.

What does tying the towel on your head do for flat/thin hair ?

[Cheros]

Oh you mean silicones.

[morningstar]

I have very fine hair and it gets flat on top. It is what it is and I can't change it much. I get more volume from shampoo bars and no condish but I stopped it for a while since I love the sleek feeling from using cones. I use Pro Vive now by L'oreal but I switch a lot back and forth with shampoo bars and Vinegar rinses.
I would stop daily washing and rubbing.
I would find a root lifting product.
Layers give me more volume but I do not have any at present and I think about it once in a while. Long layers always soften the face too.

[Cheros]

Not sure if it will make any difference, but here's a photo from a while back.
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1166/82731431.jpg

It's a bit blurry but I can't get anything better.
Thanks for the help by the way.

[Sarahmoon]

Oh you mean silicones.

Yes, sorry, should have explained myself better :oops:

[Cheros]

It's fine :) I've been looking around for a while and my brain clicked what it meant.

[bttrfly857]

5. THen when it's pretty dry I let it airdry the rest of the way.
Brush until dry with plastic ball tipped barrel brush.


I don't know how long you're wanting to grow, but brushing wet hair is a BAD idea (as is a plastic ball tipped barrel brush, but you seem to know that alread). How about a wide tooth comb?

[karli]

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=39

This is a very good article to start with!

[Cheros]

Im sorry that was a type, it meant to read "when dry". But the brush is still evil.
I actually bought the Body Shop wooden comb earlier so I will try that to detangle my hair, should I do it when it's dry or wet ? And I was wondering, do you run your fingers through first to try work some of the tension out and then with a comb ?

I will read that article thank you.

[OhioLisa]

Your hair looks possibly "fine" but I don't really think it looks "flat". :shrug:

[Lilli]

Definitely use conditioner on the shaft and ends. Don't use so much shampoo. Do an experiment - try not combing or brushing it while wet and see what it does when it dries naturally. That usually gives me more body. I have the bottom two inches of my hair layered (a round bob.) It does make the top look more volumized since the bottom now curves in, BUT layers can also look really bad, so you have to do your research and be careful.

[Cheros]

Thats my hair, post brushing and hair drying. Anything touches it and it dies, water, wind, a hand. And I have healthy-ish hair I think, people sometimes comment on it.

I'll assume the shaft is the base/roots, so I will try that. And i'll try combing it before I shower instead of after. And I'm seeing a family friend soon, who used to be a professional hairdresser down in London. So i'll ask their opinion on cutting styles.

[rags]

Well, in that picture you have more volume than I used to get in the eighties with a perm! So I don't think I'd call your hair either thin or flat, per se. Fine however, it could be, and fine hair will just lose its volume very easily.

If you don't mind using product, then I second the idea of either a root boosting product, or (I prefer) an alcohol free mousse.

I comb my hair before I shower to detangle, and then while damp. But I have straight hair. With your hair, you might want to let it dry without combing, or else only comb in the shower with conditioner on. If you can keep your waves, they will give you more natural volume.

Good luck!

[Sarah4983]

Once you get the advice on the style of cut from your family friend try using large rollers on the crown of your head (or all over) in damp hair for volume. I had a flat/fine hair issue but have been using these large velcro rollers for the past week or so and they do wonders.
Thread with pics is here:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=30290

*edit* dude, you're a dude :) I just looked at the pic link you posted. So ummm sorry. I take back the rollers idea ;-)
They are right, looks like you have lots of volume in the pic you posted

[Cheros]

I think it's my brush that does it, it does wonders for volume but it dissapears pretty fast. And as it goes down you can see I really don't have that much hair. Male pattern baldness also runs in the family, which i'm obviously looking forward to.

Thanks for the info, I will watch when to comb. And i have waves, really ? I always thought my hair was pretty straight.

And those pictures sure are encouraging, i'll have a think about it :)

[Lilli]

Dude, you have waves and a lot of volume. Also you have very nice cheekbones and a narrower jaw proportionately, so I would recommend NOT putting more volume at the top. You actually want to let your layers grow in a bit at the bottom to balance you out. As for styling, definitely use conditioner, and I would put a nice, moisturizing leave-in cream and NOT comb or brush it. Just let it air-dry in peace. The better you care for it, the healthier it will look, and you should get a nice, wavy look. And you have TONS of volume.

[Cheros]

You learn something every day, for all the consideration I give my hair, I never really looked at it like that. I love the volume I get from brushing, but I only get it from brushing. naturally it's pretty flat. I'll upload another picture to show what I mean.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9020/72378439.jpg

[Lilli]

You learn something every day, for all the consideration I give my hair, I never really looked at it like that. I love the volume I get from brushing, but I only get it from brushing. naturally it's pretty flat. I'll upload another picture to show what I mean.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9020/72378439.jpg

I still don't think that's flat. But hey, look at my hair!!! Well, what if you let the waves dry without combing or brushing, and then brush when dry? What happens then?

[Cheros]

That's what I do, and that's what I get. Afer rubbing with a towel and blowdrying :p

Maybe it's not, but it seems it to me. I like it when it poofs out, because it hides my face (if that makes sense) and softens my features. I see what you mean by volume at the top, it's the sides I want the most.

[missy60]

I am not advocating drying your hair, but if you have to try drying it with your head upside down. I would always dry it upside down until almost dry. I have to agree conditioner would be a plus. No cone conditioner seems to help with volume for me. Conditioner with cones always seemed to flatten my hair.

[Lilli]

That's what I do, and that's what I get. Afer rubbing with a towel and blowdrying :p

Maybe it's not, but it seems it to me. I like it when it poofs out, because it hides my face (if that makes sense) and softens my features. I see what you mean by volume at the top, it's the sides I want the most.

I feel you on the softening-features thing. I have fairly strong features and having just had a fringe cut, it definitely makes them stronger-looking, which I don't like. Your hair is pretty heavily layered so you're going to have to let those layers grow and don't cut anymore if you want volume on the sides.

I suppose you had better start conditioning and oiling the heck out of it if you want to continue to blow it dry and rub it and all that!

[Cheros]

Upside down hair drying seemed to come naturally to me, i always end up doing it. But if my new towel is as epic as I think it's going to be, I might not need to blowdry it.

I think I have strong features, and I don't like it so. That's bad, but at least it grows back and you know what you do and don't like :) I'm going to try blotting it if I can muster the patience and determination, and conditioner is on my to do list now. I'll look for a silicone free one.

If i still decide to brush it after, which I probably will for a while, would a boar bristle brush be beneficial ? Or would that spread the already depleted oils too far apart ?
When you say oil, is there a specific type of oil or any old oil ?

[Cheros]

And on another note, will wrapping up my hair do anything to volume? be it positive or negative.

[Cheros]

*edit* dude, you're a dude :) I just looked at the pic link you posted. So ummm sorry. I take back the rollers idea ;-)
They are right, looks like you have lots of volume in the pic you posted

Indeed, I might still try them. In the comfort and privacy of my bedroom. :p
I'll experiment with some other stuff first though and see how it goes. How does it cope with the wind and rain, or even putting a hat or hood on it ?

[rags]

If you want to get away from blow drying, then you ought to look into "plopping". I have straight hair, so I don't know a lot about it, but if you search it, lots of people get more waves/curls/volume by drying it that way.

[lundmir]

I have baby fine, stick straight hair. So most of the time it looks flat as a pancake, or it used to, since now I'm doing conditioner only washes and noticed a huge improvement.
I rotate my conditioners, but the best ones are specifically for body and volume, and silicone free since they weigh it down. I wash every other day or every two days (and use cocoa powder on the second day so it doesn't look greasy), and only oil the very ends or it's back to Flatland for me.

If I want even more volume and waves, I tie my hair high on my head the night before and then either bun it or braid it, it helps.

Sometimes I plop it, it never gives me too much of a wave but great volume, and I sleep on it when I don't want to go out with wet hair in the mornings.

Henna gives me great volume too, but then again it isn't for everyone.

Also, leave it alone, don't play too much with it because then all the work is gone.
I hope you find a routine that works for you!

[WaimeaWahine]

Acceptance goes a long way. ;) Experiment but work on learning to love your hair.

[Cheros]

You're right, and that applies to me as well as my hair :) I will be able to accept it as soon as I learn to take care of it properly.

Hmm, do you have any specific brands, cheap or expensive brands ?
I know they will probably differ from person to person, but I may as well start on something that I know works for someone else.

I think showering in the evening might be the way forward, it used to go so flat and that's why I never bothered. I'll look into the plopping, henna, maybe not so much at the moment.
I'll try not to play with it, I guess if i stopped brushing it all the time I might have more hair and wouldn't "need" to brush it to get that volume I want.

Thank you all for the help :)

[Lilli]

You can see my hair type in my profile. I really like the Giovanni hair products b/c they don't have silicone or harsh cleansers and don't smell strongly. I am using the Smooth as Silk conditioner and 50/50 Shampoo. They do make a mousse that you could use to get some volume and tackiness.

[Cheros]

I can't see it, I think new accounts aren't allowed to see certain pages until they reach a certain age or post count, I'm not sure.

I'll note that down and have a look to see if they sell it in the U.K. Mousse is intriguing but i'm trying to get as much volume as possible without extra product. So it would be a final measure.
Tackiness ?

[Lilli]

I can't see it, I think new accounts aren't allowed to see certain pages until they reach a certain age or post count, I'm not sure.

I'll note that down and have a look to see if they sell it in the U.K. Mousse is intriguing but i'm trying to get as much volume as possible without extra product. So it would be a final measure.
Tackiness ?

No, to the left of my post you'll see a bunch of letters and numbers indicating my hair type. You can type yourself. By tackiness, I mean it will make it less slippery so that it will stand away from itself and have more volume. (My hair is so fine and silky that without something in it to give it tackiness, it just lies flat.) There is nothing drying or damaging in the Giovanni mousse. There's actually a bunch of conditioning extracts.

[Cheros]

Oh I see. Well that means nothing to me so i'll find out what all the categories mean and try categorise myself.

Ohh, I get you now. I'll have a look for that and test it out thank you :)

[Kirin]

If your goal is volume I would disagree and not advise washing it less often. Fine thin hair looks lank and flat faster than any other, and dirty fine hair at least on me makes me look almost bald AND unwashed. Its worth a shot to try less frequent washing, but do not be disappointed if the results are less than satisfactory.

Make sure to get conditioner on the ends at the very least, it will help with body but avoid the scalp / root area which will flatten the hair. To get more volume out of it, do not rub your hair with a towel to dry it, but wrap it in a towel after a shower turban style. Keep it this way as you dress, apply make up, eat breakfast, or whatever other routine you have going on. Up wrapping will help absorb excess moisture without roughing up the hair, and, has the added bonus of "up lifting" at the root while it absorbs water.

If you must blow dry on cool, do part of it upside-down at the root area, which I find helps me loads with volume and lift at the crown.

[Cheros]

That's what I find so far. If i leave it longer than every other day, it turns out like comb over hair. So I'm not going to change up my routine too much at the moment, one thing at the time and experiment with what works.

The towel thing is an idea i'm going to try out tonight or tomorrow, being a guy it was confusing at first to figure out the turban but that's all sorted now. I was going to buy a microfibre towel as well, seeing as if i'm in a hurry I may as well get the process over as quick as i can with as much quality as i can. If i have time left over, then cool.

I adamantly avoid heat on my hair where I can, so it's always the cool setting for me. And I seemed to naturally blowdry my hair this way which is, interesting. I'll see if I still need anymore.

[Loviatar]

Hey, Cheros.

I used to be all about the volume. I would do so many damaging things to get more volume. Since joining LHC, I found ways round it.

1. Ditch your brush. Buy a wide tooth seamless comb. A Denman, Mason Pearson or Kent brand are the ones I like. If you get one in plastic, bakelite or similar you can use it in wet or dry hair. Do not use a wooden comb in wet hair, it will soak up water and warp like regular wood when it gets wet. (I ruined a Body Shop comb that way.)
I have a Denman brush; I found the plastic ball tips on my paddle brush were ruining my hair and snagging on any tangles. (Yes, I used to brush wet hair.) I only use my brush to put my hair up, to gether a ponytail for example. All other times, I comb. And I never comb with an actual comb until I have combed through with my fingers.

2. Volumising Washes. I wash my hair almost every day. 3 days is my limit. I like to have clean hair and I feel like my hair is thinner and flatter when I do not wash as often. The best way I have found for getting more volume into my hair is how I wash it. I used to wash standing up in the shower with my head tilted back. Now that makes for very shiny straight hair but next to no volume. If I want height and volume I bend forward at the waist and wash with my hair forward. My hair hangs down and I can shampoo the roots well without shampooing the length. (If I shampoo the length, my hair feels dry and seems to get flatter somehow.) Then I put some conditioner on. My hair is only shoulder length but I use at least 2 palmfuls of conditioner. For volume I ADORE Revlon Flex volumising conditioner which I buy from my local pharmacy for £1. I also like VO5 Extra Body, Aussie Real Volume, Samy Fat Hair or something similar, silicone free. The only good volumising conditioner I have found which has silicones is Hebral Essences Fresh Balance. Samy is the most expensive one of those; it costs maybe £4 (8 dollars ). The others are all drugstore brands.

I do not use shampoos with sulphates in them: ammonium lauryl sulphate, sodium laureth sulphate etc. They made my hair feel finer and more fragile. I do however maybe once a month use a clarifying shampoo (Tresemme vitamin C) which has A.L.S. in it. Then I follow that up with a silicone-free extra-long conditioning treatment which usually contains some protein.

These days I conditioner-only wash more than shampoo+conditioner, but each to their own. I usually shampoo on days where I want volume, though.

One great volumising treatment I do is to cover (and I mean COVER) my hair in Revlon or Vo5 Extra Body conditioner, then twist it up gently and pin it up on the top of my head. I leave it for maybe an hour, then rinse out (again bent forward over a bath). Then I follow the drying method below.

3. Drying. I never blow dry unless I am in a major rush. I have blowdried maybe 5 times this year, no more. Blowdrying for me is ALWAYS done on a cold setting as hot air makes my scalp sweat, which in turn makes my hair flat. So my best drying method is to again bend forward at the waist and 'shake' my hair into a towel. I sometimes use a microfibre but not all the time. I then wrap the towel gently round my hair like a turban and leave to dry for maybe 30 minutes. (ETA: I see Kirin advocates this too in her post above!) Then I take the towel off and allow the rest to air-dry, hanging loose. As it dries I frequently tip my head upside down, bending forward again, and rake through any tangles with my fingers. I never pull or break tangles though because I do this carefully.

If you can bear it, being a guy and maybe not wanting to do 'styles', I also get great volume from putting my hair up in a damp bun on top of my head, then letting it down maybe 6-8 hours later. This is good for when I know I have a party to go to or something and I want big bouncy hair. Gives my hair a curly effect though.

4. Leave-in treatments. I only do these overnight now, as I find they flatten my hair a little too much during the day if I have left it down. Sometimes I use a leave-in on my hair if it is in an updo style though. I find Amodimethicone works on my medium-fine hair. Cyclopentasiloxane is too heavy and makes my hair feel plasticky. (These 2 ingredients are silicones.) I like the LOreal royal jelly repair treatment although you might find it too heavy.

5. Oils. I oil my hair overnight maybe twice or three times a week like leave-ins above. I use oils more than leave-in conditioners though these days. I usually use sunflower seed as a light oil, monoi (frangipane scented coconut oil) as a slightly heavier scented oil and a mixture of castor oil and bhringraj oil as a full-on heavy oiling. There is a great article by Heidi W about oiling in the Articles section. Needless to say I never put oil on my scalp if I am wearing my hair down. I always oil my scalp when I use the castor mix.
I also find that conditioner-only washes get oil out much easier than shampoo does.

I'll pop back and comment if I think of anything else, but believe me, I know your pain! Volume is so hard to get when you have fine or medium-fine hair, especially if it's straight. Luckily you look like you have some wave patterns.

Oh and you have kicka$$ bone structure! Please don't wish for a softer or rounder face, your high cheekbones look great :)

[Cheros]

That... that's.. a lot of information to take in in 1 minute. I'm going to have to read your comment again a few times.

1) I was going to buy a BB brush, just for the sake of having a good brush at my disposal should I need one. I will remember that about the wooden comb, it never entered my head. I try to comb through with my fingers beforehand anyway, so I'll only use the brush when dry.

2) It is frustrating, but I guess it must be done if you want to look and feel good. And my hair is the one reason I can walk out the door in a morning feeling ok, so hair insults are taken rather personally for a guy. Interesting, I will try that method, I always wash head back at the moment... I don't know quite why I do it.

Thanks for the product recommendations, I'll have a looksie when I get chance.

3) Huh, sweating. Never thought of that, and it makes perfect sense. I'll try 30 minutes and see how dry it gets, I may have to adjust for towel absorption etc :)
And a bun, I dont think so. Not if i'm going to college anyway, I try to remain out of sight. Not speaking unless spoken to, and that will only attract attention from the "wrong sort" of guys.

4) I bought a leave in conditioner today from Boots, I was planning to leave it in overnight and see how it turns out. My mother is adamant that it will not work and I will have to wash it again and style it "every day" if i want to get the volume I desire.
What do you think ?

5) Oils are foreign to me, but i'm becoming more knowledgeable about them every day. From shaving soaps to hair treatment, it's been an interesting holiday :p Are there specific types of oil I should be looking for, or will any oil do ? Sunflower ? As in the olive oil ?
I'll read that when I get around to it, i have a lot of bookmarked articles at the moment and I procastinate.

I talked about that today, I noticed that my hair does in fact curl at the edge. It's not like I never noticed, it just never clicked.
And :D Thank you, i've never had that compliment before.

[Cheros]

I'm going to have to make a list I think, thanks for the beginners help. It is appreciated :)

[Cheros]

Not sure if anyone's following. I tried the conditioner on my ends and it ended up with quite a few hairs being pulled out. I think i'll wait for it to dry some more next time before I manhandle it with my hands.
Also, it's a spray condtioner so it makes it a bit harder to direct onto the right bits of hair.

:rolleyes:

[lundmir]

I have to second the suggestion for VO5 Extra Body, that one works great for me. As for other brands, I liive in Mexico so I'm not sure wheter it is available but Galaflex is another favorite, and really cheap too. I look for the cheapest conditioners since they tend to be cone free, and I forgot to mention I don't use any product ever. Nothing! Even the lightest mousse weights my hair down.

The oil I use is extra virgin coconut oil, and I only do a deep oiling the night before a wash. My max is also 3 days, I don't like to do it every day but I like it best clean.

I don't use brushes except for when I apply cocoa powder, and fingercombing seems to work best for my hair. I do it when it is dry.

[Ashley]

I have flat/straight thin-ish hair too, without any volume. For me, it does make a difference what kind of products that I use, and I found out that mostly natural products do the trick... I think the main thing is to be gently with your hair, don´t use too much shampoo or conditioner (most conditioners make my hair very flat). Without conditioner it´s more voluminous, you may want to switch cond. for oils, they care for the hair very gently and can replace the conditioner. Just a liiiittle bit (couple of drops in your handpalm) of coconut or avocado oil, those are very rich and good starters.

Anyway, I personally do not strive for more volume but rather the best version of my hair the way it is, so I don´t think my information is useful...

[Cheros]

It's still appreciated :) And who knows, maybe in time i'll learn my hair is thick naturally and i've been ruining it all along. I'll have to wait and see.

I'll remember that brand thank you, and I haven't heard of the galaflex before. It sounds like you know your hair well, i'm gonna have to experiment to see what works. And I think I may turn to finger combing in a morning, maybe run through with the comb if I feel like it.

Do you really find without condtioner you get more volume ? Huh, interesting. I guess the more product you have the heavier it gets. So it becomes counter intituitive for some hair types. Regarding the oils, it's confusing me a little. Does it act like the natural hair oils would (roughly) ? Providing the locked in moisture and conditioning effects ?

[Cheros]

I still don't think that's flat. But hey, look at my hair!!! Well, what if you let the waves dry without combing or brushing, and then brush when dry? What happens then?

Aha I figured out the classifications. I get it now :) I think I will take your advice on board, I'm going to let it grow out and see what it looks like. All i've ever had since not cutting it entirely short, is layers. :rolleyes: