The CO (conditioner only) washing thread

[cmg]

Piggy's hair doesn't require such stringent water quality control as dwarf shrimp cultures :D
I guess not, he he.


For hair-washing purposes, I don't need to remove elemental chlorine altogether; I merely want to neutralize the hypochlorous acid by reaction with ascorbic acid, thus:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff33/shoppingpiglet/20120623.jpg
(Source: US Department of Agriculture and Forest Service (http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdf/05231301.pdf))
Firstly, you cannot neutralize an acid with another acid in the chemical sense. Secondly, the formula describes an aqueous solution. But we are not talking about the pool or an aquarium for that matter, we are talking about putting it into someones hair! This formula describes a situation that could happen in a pool of water, but not in your hair. Ascorbic acid is seen here as an reduction agent/anti-oxidant while the hypochlorite is the oxidant, in water. It will not break down hypochlorite or its damages when put in your hair. No gain for the hair there.There is no way, either with rinsing, rubbing or otherwise, the ascorbic acid can remove any chlorine or chloramines that might have attached to your hair from bathing in a pool.

And here is the basic reaction for this:
ClO- + Cl- + 2 H+ « Cl2(g) + H2O

The desinfectant based on natriumhypochlorite is designed to deliver the chlorine into the pool to do its mojo there. The hypchlorite-ion + a chloride-ion + two hydrogenium-ions form chlorine gas and water molecules. The chlorine gas is dissolved in the pool water and will later dissipate in the air, thus causing irritation when reaching your lungs. This is what it means, when an acid reacts with the desinfectant. It has nothing to do with what happens in your hair later on. See next post.

Remember, the chloramines are compounds that are very stable in water and dont readily separate (the amounts and turnovers in the pool in question is another discussion, also the light speeds up reactions, but lets keep it simple). But then, in practice you take a shower after the visit to the pool and any traces of this would have rinsed away if you are careful. The rest is PR and trying to make you buy various products.

BTW, boiling a solution of hypochlorite will result in its breakdown to chlorate and chlorides. No help for the hair here either.

You will always have HOCl and HCl in the pool water, regardless if you put ascorbic acid in it or not. The light (sunlight) starts to react with the desinfectant as soon as it appears out of the pipes (the hypchloric acid doesent react much inside there because of lack of sunlight) and the HCl will form (plus some oxygen statu nascendi). In the end you will have HClO3 which is the active compound that will do its oxidative mojo in the pool. Or you add some from a bottle = same strong oxidative effect.

After having done its mojo the resulting HCl is neutralized (buffered) by calciumkarbonates in the water column, not by adding another acid. During this process dihydrogen carbonate H2CO3 is formed. So there you have the HCl, which can bleach and harm your hair. It will be there in abundance, because of the large dosages. The remedy is protective hair sebum and taking showers afterwards.


With all due respect, I personally feel more comfortable relying on scientific studies conducted by the US Department of Agriculture and Forest Service, the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission, and the American Water Works Association, rather than information disseminated by a company that sells water purification products and a grassroots citizens' action group, KWIM? (^(oo)~)

There were several links to cited reports. Regardless, understanding is essential. You have to figure out what is really happening to your hair. As a rule, the desinfectant concentration is so big, there is always free elementar chlorine present in the water, along with lots of HCl. And then we have the amines and the hypchloric acid. So, what are we going to do with your hair? Is there a general method to prevent these substances from entering our hair and if so, does this method work against all of them? Answer as I see it: Yes the hair sebum will coat the hair and protect the hair proteines from getting damaged. Other than that, I dont think there is any one artificial method available today that does all this. Actually, I discussed this with another chemist from Colgate-Palmolive a few years ago, and they did not have a true remedy at that time either.

/ CMG

[mduggan]

Also I've never bought it but:
http://img2.etsystatic.com/000/0/6406781/il_570xN.282518690.jpg (http://www.etsy.com/listing/78795752/cacao-bark-deep-conditioning-hair-treat?ref=sr_gallery_10&ga_search_query=chocolate+conditioner&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_ship_to=ZZ&ga_min=0&ga_max=0&ga_search_type=all)

*enable enable enable*

BE STILL MY HEART....

and here's the ingredients:

Ingredients: Distilled Water, Prime Pressed Cocoa Butter, Virgin Coconut Cream, Kukui Moluccana Seed Oil, Agave Nectar, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Raw Cocoa Powder,Amalaki Fruit Powder, Cetyl Alcohol, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Butylene Glycol, Phenoxyethanol and Ethylhexylglycerin.

Naturally aromatic of dark chocolate (no additional fragrance added) - with a texture similar to soft chocolate icing.


I feel a splurge coming on....

[cmg]

This is what happens in your hair from the chlorine, and this is why you cannot "neutralize" it or its effects with adding some acid to your hair:

The hair shaft is subject to lysis from the chlorine. This means that the strong oxidative effect of the chlorine, HCl and so on, will break down the hair proteine thru denaturation. It is irrevokably damaged this way, and cannot be repaired with anything you put in or on the hair, like ascorbic acid for example. And this damage happens immediately during contact to the chlorinated water, afterwards any action is too late. So here we can only do the same as we do to otherwise bleached hair: Protect it from more damage.

The associated greenish or yellowish tint in fair haired peoples hair is not an effect from this bleaching from the chlorine compounds per se. It is an effect from the various minerals and metals in the water, depositing in the (damaged) hair shafts. This can be counteracted afterwards with chelating agents or coloring it in another color (like blue or violet) or even oxidating (bleaching) it away. Here is the only true market for the hair industry; a chelating agent has to be in the shampoo or condish.


Interesting! For some reason I had always thought the metal ions were sequestered in a dissolved state in the water . . . do you happen to know how the general chemical equation looks for the formation of the slimy layer? Curious piggies want to know! (^(oo)^)`
Dont want to dismiss you here or anything, :beercheer: but thats too much chemistry to cover for the CO-thread in a hairforum. I am sure you can find lots of info on water hardiness in other places on the internet. Also the hardiness is defined and measured differently in various countries of the world, so this discussion could risk becoming endless :( Putting it simple, the acid provides extra hydrogenium-ions that react to the hardiness compounds, dissolving the bonds between the negative and the positive ions in the hardiness salts. The new compounds leave the watercolumn and settle down on the bottom of the bucket instead. You are not in fact removing any OH-ions, but adding H-ions, which turns the water more and more acidic and "softer". But all methods have its flaws, the water becomes "salter" as well. You are removing something, by adding something else. :cool:

/ CMG

[cmg]

Dovetail and mduggan: You are making me hungry! :D


This is a common (FALSE) misconception. Buildup has very little to do with water-solubility, particularly when it comes to rinse-off conditioners. I don't know who originally perpetrated this erroneous idea years ago, but I think they have done a huge disservice to the hair care community. Think about it logically for a second: if anything that isn't water-soluble builds up on the hair, what about oils? They're certainly not water-soluble ;)

You are absolutely right there. And the cones are not the only culprits when it comes to forming coatings on the hair, so avoiding cones is not the one and only solution of all associated problems.


The following 'cones do NOT build up because they are water-soluble: dimethicone copolyols.

*Besserwissermodus on*

Regarding water-soluble or not: I would like to refer to what the term soluble really means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution
None of this applies to cones. There are no true water-soluble cones. This often misused word is just a laymans way to describe it. I quote wiki here: "Counterexamples are provided by liquid mixtures that are not homogeneous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_%28chemistry%29): colloids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloid), suspensions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_%28chemistry%29), emulsions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsion) are not considered solutions." The condish or shampoo etc. is a waterbased delivery system, but not a water solution. Calling it macroemulsion or simply emulsion would be more correct. Solution it is not.

To be even more accurate and specific:
The silicone fluid or polymer is the dispersed phase in an continuus phase, the water.

*Besserwissermodus off*

People here in Sweden who use dimethicone-copolyol products are washing it off with just a CO-wash. So there seems to be no problem in that way. Here you can read what specificly removes different cones from your hair (this part is correct, but they are still reffering to them being "water-soluble" :cool: :
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/whats-the-scoop-on-silicones

Here is some light reading on dimethicone-copolyol:
http://www.ehow.com/about_5057373_dimethicone-copolyol.html

And from a somewhat biased source, a toxic ingredients list at the alkalizeforhealth.net:
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Ltoxiccosmetics.htm#49
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Ltoxiccosmetics.htm

/ CMG

[-Cookiez-]

I love it!
My hair hasn't felt this soft in a long time. Once a week or twice a week (depending how much I sweat, etc) I mix a dull baking soda mix with my first CO rinse to just get the build up oil/dirt out. I use a cheap conditioner for the first rinse then a more pricey one for the second rinse.

[elvishkat]

Has anyone found a good washing conditioner available in France or perhaps on Amazon Uk? I'm kind of desperate :\ I need something reaaaaaally liquidy that doesn't leave any kind of build up. I am cone free and used to use something available in Australia that comes in a big pink 1l bottle (for about $2) and had only about 7-10 ingredients.

[Raponsje]

I have been Coing for two weeks now and I like it. I notice less tangles and snagging and also more texture and body/volume. My hair does get oily/greasy faster but not limp. With the right updo it still looks proper to the world. When people do notice I think they would sooner attribute it to the use of some product than not using shampoo. Greasy hair is often associated with frumpy. Have to get up now. I will share some more later this morning.

[caadam]

Has anyone found a good washing conditioner available in France or perhaps on Amazon Uk? I'm kind of desperate :\ I need something reaaaaaally liquidy that doesn't leave any kind of build up. I am cone free and used to use something available in Australia that comes in a big pink 1l bottle (for about $2) and had only about 7-10 ingredients.

I just found this list of conditioners in the UK. Hopefully this will help you out.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=12619

Also, I found this conditioner on Amazon UK that looked like a promising CO condish.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inecto-Pure-Coconut-Conditioner-500ml/dp/B0041RUKXA/ref=sr_1_1?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1340598288&sr=1-1

[afu]

I just found this list of conditioners in the UK. Hopefully this will help you out.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=12619

Also, I found this conditioner on Amazon UK that looked like a promising CO condish.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inecto-Pure-Coconut-Conditioner-500ml/dp/B0041RUKXA/ref=sr_1_1?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1340598288&sr=1-1

I have used quite a few UK conditioners, including the inecto coconut (which you can get from 'savers' cheaply) - I'll post a quick review of what ive used after work

[Raponsje]

I just now had time to look closely at the ingredients of the conditioner I bought. I was somewhat limited in choice and attention when I picked it up and only noticed one type of cone on the ingredientlist. It is our good old friend demithicone so I do expect some build up. I don't worry to much though. It is a problem that is easily cured and it tends to take about six months to see the downside of build up in my hair. I do have a condish without any cones from urtekram but my hair tends to tangle and snag more when I use that and it is rather expensive for CO washing. Another thing is that I am a little lost in cone land. Piggy is a big help in distinguishing the good from the bad and the ugly, but it still feels like the wild west when I stand in the conditioner isle. For now I like the results and I will make it up as I go along.

[pandora114]

Still using the mane and tail and my hair feels thicker, nicer and not all crinkly. I guess it's good for my hair type. YAY!

[elvishkat]

I just found this list of conditioners in the UK. Hopefully this will help you out.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=12619

Also, I found this conditioner on Amazon UK that looked like a promising CO condish.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inecto-Pure-Coconut-Conditioner-500ml/dp/B0041RUKXA/ref=sr_1_1?s=drugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1340598288&sr=1-1

Thanks for this!! I will investigate, I think :) Thanks so much!!

[brave]

Oh piggy, you have made my day. I was wanting a list of cones that were build-up-less.

As far as other ingredients go, will co-washing deal with the problems of PVP and polyquaterniums (I know I read that some polyquats were more washable than others, but which particularly should be avoided)?

Those of you who do use coney conditioners -- do you do a two-step CO or do you use the coney stuff on your scalp too? For probably about 2, 3 years I was COing with cones because I didn't know any better and I often just did a one-step. Surprisingly I didn't suffer that much from build-up. Do those of you who use coney conditioners with cones that don't build up, do you have to clarify at all?

[Neecola]

The following 'cones MAY build up if used in excess without shampooing, but are unlikely to do so at normal use levels: behenoxy dimethicone, cetyl dimethicone, cetearyl methicone, phenyl dimethicone, phenyl trimethicone, stearyl methicone, stearoxy dimethicone.

The following 'cones do NOT build up due to the inherent nature of their chemical structure: amodimethicone, bis-aminopropyl dimethicone, silicone quaternium, trimethylsilylamodimethicone.

The following 'cones do NOT build up because they slowly dissipate from the surface of the hair within a day: cyclomethicone, cyclopentasiloxane, and any other 'cone beginning with "cyclo-".

The following 'cones do NOT build up because they are water-soluble: dimethicone copolyols.

This list is very helpful-- thank you luxepiggy!! :applause

[afu]

For those who want to learn more about ingredients and how hair products work try this
book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dont-Shopping-Hair-Care-Products-Without/dp/1877988316), it is meant to be really good - im just waiting on mine to arrive from the US

[fridgee]

Oh piggy, you have made my day. I was wanting a list of cones that were build-up-less.

As far as other ingredients go, will co-washing deal with the problems of PVP and polyquaterniums (I know I read that some polyquats were more washable than others, but which particularly should be avoided)?

Those of you who do use coney conditioners -- do you do a two-step CO or do you use the coney stuff on your scalp too? For probably about 2, 3 years I was COing with cones because I didn't know any better and I often just did a one-step. Surprisingly I didn't suffer that much from build-up. Do those of you who use coney conditioners with cones that don't build up, do you have to clarify at all?

If I use cones I do a 2 step. First with diluted cone free then with a nonbuild up cone conditioner, which doesn't touch my scalp. I don't think cones on the scalp are automatically bad because many shampoos have cones in and are intended for scalp use.

ETA: I do need to clarify, but not more often than when I never used cones.

[cmg]

I suspect with an M or C hair, you would not have so much problems with the buildup as with F hair. There is less surface area and fewer hairs that would be affected. Just speculating, but I seem to notice any buildup much sooner with my F hair. I sometimes use a condish with amodimeticone and another with behentrimoniumchloride, and I can feel the buildups relatively soon. At least at the head area I have to take extra steps to remove those. But there are others "much worse".

/ CMG

[arjay.d]

Okay. So, two nights ago, I did my first CO this time around (only my second.) My hair was really greasy immediately. It didn't really rinse out all the way apparently. I looked through here and think I will put the conditioner on dry hair tonight. Is there anything else I can try to get rid of this or is this the transition period? My mom doesn't like it and I have interviews this week. Also, does it ever get easier to rinse out? I feel like I'm using so much more water than when I SC or CWC. Thanks! :cheese:

[afu]

Okay. So, two nights ago, I did my first CO this time around (only my second.) My hair was really greasy immediately. It didn't really rinse out all the way apparently. I looked through here and think I will put the conditioner on dry hair tonight. Is there anything else I can try to get rid of this or is this the transition period? My mom doesn't like it and I have interviews this week. Also, does it ever get easier to rinse out? I feel like I'm using so much more water than when I SC or CWC. Thanks! :cheese:

My suggestions would be to apply to dry hair (which you've already picked up on) and/or dilute your conditioner as it will make it easier to rinse out, i dilute mine about 50:50 but it depends on your personal preference and the thickness of whatever you are using

[Thenolegirl]

Hey guys.

I've been COing for a few weeks now, and it was great...But I'm at my college apartment and I washed my hair here with my regular CO method and Kiwi Lime V05 (the most cleansing in my stash).

My hair feels oily and coated - the same result I had last semester with the method. I think I will have to go back to CWC while here. It's a shame - it works great at home and anywhere with soft water.

[arjay.d]

My suggestions would be to apply to dry hair (which you've already picked up on) and/or dilute your conditioner as it will make it easier to rinse out, i dilute mine about 50:50 but it depends on your personal preference and the thickness of whatever you are using

What do you dilute it with? I don't think I've seen that yet on here. Is it oil? Coconut or EVOO?

[GRU]

What do you dilute it with? I don't think I've seen that yet on here. Is it oil? Coconut or EVOO?

Water. Plain old water.

[arjay.d]

Neat. I wouldn't have thought that. Thank you. You guys are great at replying! I really appreciate that on here.

[afu]

In case anyone from the UK/europe is interested I've just done a quick review of the CO products I've used on my blog (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/blog.php?b=102013); hope they can be of help and feel free to comment :)

[GRU]

Neat. I wouldn't have thought that. Thank you. You guys are great at replying! I really appreciate that on here.

It seems counter-intuitive, that watering something down makes it work better, doesn't it?

For me, I put 1-2 ounces of conditioner and 4-6 ounces of water in an applicator bottle and shake it up. The conditioner gets kind of sudsy, and with the pointy nozzle on the applicator bottle, I can apply it directly to my scalp (which is the part needing to be cleaned). The conditioner also spreads around better when it's watered down, which allows me to get more complete coverage of my scalp.

Before I tried it, I never would have believed how well it works. Like I said, the whole thing seems counter-intuitive! But tons and tons of people here have had good results doing it this way, so it's definitely worth a try!

[kitschy]

I've been CO washing as usual, but while my hair is still saturated with conditioner, I squirt in about a 1/2 tablespoon of mineral oil. Then I squeeze and comb through (with my shower comb) the oil and conditioner so it mixes and covers every square inch, and let it sit and soak while I do the rest of my shower. Then I rinse it out, reapply conditioner ony and rinse again.

I live in an arid climate, and I have 3B curly, porous hair, so I need tons of moisture - this works very well for me, but it wouldn't work for every type hair.

[annah]

Hi guys. Just wanted to pop in an say Hello! I've been doing CO for about a month now. I'm still trying to figure out my routine. But my scalp and hair are loving the change!

[afu]

I've been CO washing as usual, but while my hair is still saturated with conditioner, I squirt in about a 1/2 tablespoon of mineral oil. Then I squeeze and comb through (with my shower comb) the oil and conditioner so it mixes and covers every square inch, and let it sit and soak while I do the rest of my shower. Then I rinse it out, reapply conditioner ony and rinse again.

I live in an arid climate, and I have 3B curly, porous hair, so I need tons of moisture - this works very well for me, but it wouldn't work for every type hair.

How long have you been doing this kitschy? It has always been my knowledge that mineral oil should never go near your roots because it severely limits oxygen supply to the follicle. I guess the second application of conditioner may be what is saving you here

[Lauren710]

So it's been almost 2 weeks now (my last shampoo was two weeks ago Thursday) and I'm loving CO so far :D I think I need more moisture though, so I have a couple things coming in the mail to try. My birthday is coming up so I splurged a little :o

Current routine is wash with Suave Naturals Coconut, 365 Lavender as my RO, Kinky Curly Knot Today as my leave-in. I've been playing around with styling products but I don't think they're adding much moisture, just trying to stay away from ingredients that seem to make my hair even more dry/frizzy (alcohols, mostly). My hair feels nicer than it used to but still a little dry (still somewhat frizzy and a shed hair snaps when I pull with very little effort) so I'll be playing around with adding more moisture into my routine once my new stuff arrives. For now I'm sitting with some pre-wash oil on my head to see if that does anything for me, I could probably use another SMT but that will have to wait until tomorrow when I have a few hours to hang around with a shower cap and towel wrapped around my head.

[kitschy]

How long have you been doing this kitschy? It has always been my knowledge that mineral oil should never go near your roots because it severely limits oxygen supply to the follicle. I guess the second application of conditioner may be what is saving you here

I've been using mineral oil since Ktani started posting about the oil shampoo method.

My dad used mineral oil in his 'Lucky Tiger' hair balm for 70 years. I got my curls from him. He had a full, glorious head of white hair when he passed away.

I'm not sure when mineral oil started getting such a bad rep. A lot of conditioners contain it.

[kitschy]

Oh yes, and afu, (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=47087) I am sure you could just as well use your favoirite EVOO or Coconut oil or grapeseed, or whichever oil you prefer.
(http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=47087)

[caadam]

How long have you been doing this kitschy? It has always been my knowledge that mineral oil should never go near your roots because it severely limits oxygen supply to the follicle. I guess the second application of conditioner may be what is saving you here

Actually, ktani did an article on applying mineral oil onto the scalp and how it won't clog pores if applied correctly: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=231

I've not used mineral oil on my scalp, but I have used it on my skin (I have xerosis on my left foot), and it really helps to keep my skin moisturized where I need it the most. :) And I've not had any negative side effects from it, either.

[firegypsy]

I've stopped COing for a bit. It just wasn't working out for me, but I plan to come back soon.

The next trial will tell me something. My scalp was so itchy and my hair was shedding like mad. That stopped when I went back to 'poo. It I start COing again we'll see if it happens once more.

I only tried 4 different kinds (both cone and non-cone) but none worked well. I'm going to scope out this thread for more ideas, because I love the idea.

I am only 'pooing every other day now, and will try to stretch even longer if possible. In fact, I may poo every 4 days and CO every 4 alternating so I'm cleaning every 2 days for now....that might just work....

[caadam]

kitschy, I used to really be paranoid about mineral oil myself until I read more about it, Ktani's articles along with other articles about it. I can see where the stigma against mineral oil comes from, but what I've learned is that if you use it wisely and in moderation, there's really no issue unless your body and hair just happen to not agree with it for different reasons.

I know mineral oil has had a serious reputation for being a bad product that clogs pores and causes all sorts of problems, but really, I've used products in the past with mineral oil, and I've not experienced any of these stigmas despite my past prejudices against it. Maybe it happens to some people, but I either think it's because of an excessive amount of mineral oil, or their body just doesn't like it.

[kitschy]

caadam, I'm the sort of person who will try anything, especially when someone warns me not to.

I was raised in a generation that slathered it on our babies, and used it in our hair. We didn't suffer from it, it kept us moisturized, healthy and supple. It is now the style to avoid MO in favor of oils that are 'natural.' It is just another fad IMO.

[caadam]

caadam, I'm the sort of person who will try anything, especially when someone warns me not to.

I was raised in a generation that slathered it on our babies, and used it in our hair. We didn't suffer from it, it kept us moisturized, healthy and supple. It is now the style to avoid MO in favor of oils that are 'natural.' It is just another fad IMO.

Yeah... I get that notion, too. lol I really do appreciate using natural products and all, but if something like MO works, and there's plenty of evidence that's positive about it (not to mention it's a vegan product, which is a plus, I think), I'll give it a shot. It's worked wonderfully for me.

And yeah—my mother kept my skin all nice and soft with baby oil when I was little, too.

[kitschy]

I just wanted to say, that adding oil to your co-wash is similar to 'Oil Rinsing (http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2011/04/how-to-oil-rinse-and-why-you-should/),' but quicker.

I would only recommend it to curlies, or to those with extremely dry or damaged hair. My hair drinks oil for happy hour. I can literally put a palm ful of EVOO into my hair and it disappears into softness.

This isn't for everyone, but if, like me, your hair is corrse, curly and you live in a dessert, it might help you through the summer. Try melted coconut oil if you prefer - I'm sure it would work wonders.

[PolarCathy]

I just wanted to say, that adding oil to your co-wash is similar to 'Oil Rinsing (http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2011/04/how-to-oil-rinse-and-why-you-should/),' but quicker.

I have been doing oil rinsing and my hair quality I (still) don't know (in terms of m/f/c); I used to be a curly but not anymore, and it's not damaged + I don't live in the desert :) yet it works. Oil rinsing is awesome!!

[afu]

Oh yes, and afu, (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=47087) I am sure you could just as well use your favoirite EVOO or Coconut oil or grapeseed, or whichever oil you prefer.
(http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=47087)

I do actually use the exact same technique as you, except with sweet almond oil instead of MO :) I do that every other wash and a normal CO in between.

Thanks for the corrections re: MO, I guess im just not that clued up because it doesn't seem to work for me. I always used MO on my horses manes and tails to stop tangling but of course their hair was extremely course compared to mine, however little I used it always gave my hair a slimy feel! My hair is quite picky with oils though, coconut oil and sweet almond work well but nothing else ive tried is suitable. Classic case of YMMV

[caadam]

I just wanted to say, that adding oil to your co-wash is similar to 'Oil Rinsing (http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2011/04/how-to-oil-rinse-and-why-you-should/),' but quicker.

I would only recommend it to curlies, or to those with extremely dry or damaged hair. My hair drinks oil for happy hour. I can literally put a palm ful of EVOO into my hair and it disappears into softness.

This isn't for everyone, but if, like me, your hair is corrse, curly and you live in a dessert, it might help you through the summer. Try melted coconut oil if you prefer - I'm sure it would work wonders.

If that's oil rinsing, I've done that once before, and it was awesome. :D

But I've been adding oil to my conditioner every wash so far for the past three washes, and it's been working out great for me. I use olive oil and jojoba oil every time, about a teaspoon altogether, maybe a tiny bit more than that. It hasn't left my hair oily all the times I've done it, and I don't have coarse or curly hair.

My hair really likes EVOO... but if I do use too much, my hair won't soak it up. So I don't know. lol

[caadam]

I do actually use the exact same technique as you, except with sweet almond oil instead of MO :) I do that every other wash and a normal CO in between.

Thanks for the corrections re: MO, I guess im just not that clued up because it doesn't seem to work for me. I always used MO on my horses manes and tails to stop tangling but of course their hair was extremely course compared to mine, however little I used it always gave my hair a slimy feel! My hair is quite picky with oils though, coconut oil and sweet almond work well but nothing else ive tried is suitable. Classic case of YMMV

Yeah, I know some people's hair just doesn't like MO. lol I kind of have that problem with coconut oil. I know a lot of people love it on this forum and really suggest it, but my hair hates it (it makes my ends feel and LOOK like wire. It's terrible).

[brave]

I might have to try the adding oil thing. Thin cone-free conditioners aren't cutting it and thick cone-free conditioners are expensive. I wonder if using it on the length would work well -- I have grapeseed oil on hand.

[caadam]

I might have to try the adding oil thing. Thin cone-free conditioners aren't cutting it and thick cone-free conditioners are expensive. I wonder if using it on the length would work well -- I have grapeseed oil on hand.

I use Suave Rosemary & Mint mixed with a tsp of olive oil and jojoba. I put it all on my hair and scalp. It works for me, so I guess you could try it with your oil of choice and see how it works for you. :D

[mduggan]

QUESTION: how do I add volume to my hair? I CO and moisture-wise, I think my F hair is fine, but even when squeaky clean it frequently lies flat......

[caadam]

QUESTION: how do I add volume to my hair? I CO and moisture-wise, I think my F hair is fine, but even when squeaky clean it frequently lies flat......

That tends to happen to a lot of people who CO wash...

In my case, what really helps to give my hair some extra volume is my BBB. I brush with that for a few minutes and my hair has a bit more body (however, this doesn't really matter because I just put my hair up in a bun LOL. That just takes all the volume away).

Other than that... I don't know. o 3o Hopefully someone does, though!

[brave]

I use Suave Rosemary & Mint mixed with a tsp of olive oil and jojoba. I put it all on my hair and scalp. It works for me, so I guess you could try it with your oil of choice and see how it works for you. :D

How does that one effect you, build-up wise, since it has dimethiconol? Do you need to clarify often?

Also dammit, I can see that they still MAKE Suave sun-ripened strawberry, but I haven't seen it in stores since I don't know when. I used to use that all the time and I loved the way the smell clung.

[caadam]

How does that one effect you, build-up wise, since it has dimethiconol? Do you need to clarify often?

Also dammit, I can see that they still MAKE Suave sun-ripened strawberry, but I haven't seen it in stores since I don't know when. I used to use that all the time and I loved the way the smell clung.

I find myself not having to clarify very often, even with the dimethiconol. I clarify about once a month, or less.

Also, if you like that conditioner a lot, you can always ask your grocery store to stock it! They'll usually comply unless they can't for some weird reason. lol I actually asked for my local Walmart to stock the family sized bottle of the Suave Rosemary Mint a couple of years ago. A week after I asked, the bottles were on the shelves and have been there since. :D I guess my request was beneficial for me and them. lol

[brave]

Oh I never even thought of that. I don't know if I still like it a lot -- I hadn't quite mastered "hair care" back then -- but the smell was amazing. I know VO5 has the strawberries and cream one but I hate the cream smell.

[mduggan]

That tends to happen to a lot of people who CO wash...

In my case, what really helps to give my hair some extra volume is my BBB. I brush with that for a few minutes and my hair has a bit more body (however, this doesn't really matter because I just put my hair up in a bun LOL. That just takes all the volume away).

Other than that... I don't know. o 3o Hopefully someone does, though!


Funny thing... I don't own a brush...have always used my fingers. I'm not sure I'd even know where to find a good brush... LOL

I have tried misting (the mister containing distilled water, a few drops of avocado and apricot oil and a squirt of Tresemee Naturals) and scrunching.... that helps for a while, then flattens out again...

[afu]

QUESTION: how do I add volume to my hair? I CO and moisture-wise, I think my F hair is fine, but even when squeaky clean it frequently lies flat......

I find that the leave-in you choose has a big effect on body, I love how sleek sweet almond oil makes my hair so I use that if im bunning or braiding, but if im wearing it loose I will use coconut oil and give it a good scrunch because I find that holds my curls up and retains more volume

[luxepiggy]

I know that you use cones now, but did you ever try without them? I just wonder if you had the same reaction and determined that it was because you needed cones, or if you had the oily scalp but your scalp acclimated and you realised you needed cones for other reasons (like tanlgies and so on)?

Back when I was still doing a conventional shampoo & condition routine I tried going 'cone free, and my hair objected in no uncertain terms. As a result, I had no desire to attempt 'cone free CO-washing. FWIW, I didn't experience a transition period when I switched.


Note: I'm a bit confused by this:
"The 'cones that are most likely to build-up are among those most commonly included in hair care formulations: dimethicone "
but then you go on to say: "The following 'cones do NOT build up because they are water-soluble: dimethicone copolyols."

So I assume then that Dimethicone and Dimethicone COPOLYOLS are two diffrent things despite the similar beginning?

Yup. Totally different (^(oo)^)v


Oh piggy, you have made my day. I was wanting a list of cones that were build-up-less.

As far as other ingredients go, will co-washing deal with the problems of PVP and polyquaterniums (I know I read that some polyquats were more washable than others, but which particularly should be avoided)?
I'm wary of polyquaterniums as many have been shown to build up even with shampoo ( ' (oo) ' )


Those of you who do use coney conditioners -- do you do a two-step CO or do you use the coney stuff on your scalp too? For probably about 2, 3 years I was COing with cones because I didn't know any better and I often just did a one-step. Surprisingly I didn't suffer that much from build-up. Do those of you who use coney conditioners with cones that don't build up, do you have to clarify at all?

I use 'coney stuff on my scalp as part of a modified 2-step CO. First I use cheapo 'coney conditioners to cleanse the scalp, then I follow up with nicer 'coney conditioners to impart a long-lasting conditioning effect. I never clarify (^(oo)^)v

[mduggan]

I find that the leave-in you choose has a big effect on body, I love how sleek sweet almond oil makes my hair so I use that if im bunning or braiding, but if im wearing it loose I will use coconut oil and give it a good scrunch because I find that holds my curls up and retains more volume

afu, do you mist with coconut oil and water or put the oil in undiluted? Are you using just a few drops?

[Tisiloves]

QUESTION: how do I add volume to my hair? I CO and moisture-wise, I think my F hair is fine, but even when squeaky clean it frequently lies flat......

I use the jazz hands fingercombing air dry method, it might make you a little frizzy, though. Just finger comb your hair occasionally as it dries and shake your hands as if you're doing jazz hands. I get a fair wedge of volume and faster drying, YMMV, though.

[afu]

afu, do you mist with coconut oil and water or put the oil in undiluted? Are you using just a few drops?

I put it in just 'as is', I use quite a lot compared to most people (I've heard lots of people on LHC say they use a finger nail size amount) but I can get away with quite a lot - id just say as much as you can get away with on ear level downwards without getting a greasy look. Oils on the lengths never seem to weight my hair down because the curl pattern is strong enough, but just experiment and see what suits you. I find that if you mix coconut oil and aloe vera gel you can apply quite a bit without going too quickly over the 'greasy look' threshold so I use that route if applying to dry hair and use it neat on damp hair.

[mduggan]

many thanks for the quick responses, Tisiloves and afu :-D

[Dovetail]

Thank you so much piggy =^-^= it's so interesting to see all the things that work for different people! Hopefully some day I'll figure out my perfect rapunzel hair routine <3

[EndlessSunshine]

Going to get my hair cut tomorrow. I have a quite of bit of damage and my hair is just a few inches past my shoulders so I am getting it cut to my shoulders again. I have been using my coney conditioner all weekend since they are going to wash and such with god knows what. I will ask them to not use any products on my hair and to let it air dry.

[Tisiloves]

Going to get my hair cut tomorrow. I have a quite of bit of damage and my hair is just a few inches past my shoulders so I am getting it cut to my shoulders again. I have been using my coney conditioner all weekend since they are going to wash and such with god knows what. I will ask them to not use any products on my hair and to let it air dry.

Can't you just come in with wet hair/ ask for a "dry" cut?

[EndlessSunshine]

Can't you just come in with wet hair/ ask for a "dry" cut?
Tomorrow is a busy day. I need to clarify anyways.

[afu]

Going to get my hair cut tomorrow. I have a quite of bit of damage and my hair is just a few inches past my shoulders so I am getting it cut to my shoulders again. I have been using my coney conditioner all weekend since they are going to wash and such with god knows what. I will ask them to not use any products on my hair and to let it air dry.

Lots of people on LHC take their own products into the salon and request that those are used, if you can't be bothered explaining the whole reasoning behind it you can always just say you are allergic to a lot of things and so must use 'X' product

[cmg]

I do actually use the exact same technique as you, except with sweet almond oil instead of MO :) I do that every other wash and a normal CO in between.

Thanks for the corrections re: MO, I guess im just not that clued up because it doesn't seem to work for me. I always used MO on my horses manes and tails to stop tangling but of course their hair was extremely course compared to mine, however little I used it always gave my hair a slimy feel! My hair is quite picky with oils though, coconut oil and sweet almond work well but nothing else ive tried is suitable. Classic case of YMMV
Same here, SAO or coconut oil. My hair is somewhat picky but usually I can put pretty much anything in terms of oils in it. I do stay away from petroelum products though, because I made a commitment years ago to avoid things that coat the hair unnaturally and/or have to be removed by harsh methods.

Here is my list of mineral oils/mixtures that I try to avoid in hair products because I can feel a buildup when they are present (in no particular order):

E 905 (microcrystalline wax)
Isododecane
Isoparaffin
Mineral oil
Ozokerit*
Paraffinum
Paraffinum liquidum
Petrolatum
Petroleum
Polyisobutene**
Vaseline

I am not saying the hair does not look better or frizzes less with these products, I do however prefer to attempt to keep my hair in such a condition that it doesnt need them. Those substances need to be removed with cleaning agents and the biodegradability of it all is also an environmental issue. Just trying to leave a small mark.

*Ozokerit is the same thing but of natural origin, waxy
**Rubber-like stuff, more in lipstuffs but also in hairproducts

/CMG

[luxepiggy]

Thank you so much piggy =^-^= it's so interesting to see all the things that work for different people! Hopefully some day I'll figure out my perfect rapunzel hair routine <3

Don't worry, you will find it if you are stubborn enough (^(oo)~)

[louzen]

Just jumping on the mineral oil bandwagon :) - I've been reading a book called 'Skin Deep' by Pat Thomas here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Skin-Deep-essential-toiletries-cosmetics/dp/1905744234/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1340827226&sr=1-1).

She mentions mineral oil quite a bit throughout the book, and not in a good sense. A quote:


Mineral oil, the by-product of the distillation of gasoline from crude oil, impedes the skin's ability to breathe, attract moisture and detoxify. It can also slow down cell renewal and promote premature skin ageing. It is used for its lubricant qualities which in the short term appear to make the skin softer, used over longer term, however, mineral oil can dry the skin out. This is because mineral oil dissolves the skin's natural oils, thereby increasing water-loss from the skin. Any mineral oil derivative can be contaminated with cancer-causing polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) ....

I never touched it myself due to the fact it's a petroleum product, but after reading this, I'm staying well away! :eek:

ETA: I'm not suggesting the above quote is the absolute truth, just thought I would quote it for the benefit of others - I tend to be more on the cautious side of things and would rather be safe than sorry. Note, I think the cautions would apply to putting MO on your scalp/skin but not so much the hair.

[afu]

Thanks for that louzen :) I stay away because it's a petroleum product and im trying to make my hair and skin care as natural as possible and reduce my environmental impact - but thats another reason to add to the list

[cmg]

I quite agree! I dont use it either myself. But there are benefits also, which makes alot of people use it. It has great cosmetic benefits in lots of areas. And in its defence, a lot of the risks involved stemed from inpurities, not the oil itself. Since 1980-1990 something, the production methods have changed considerable and these risks have largely dissapeared. Although, we still have to consider the damages and risks from the oil itself today. In my country there has been a lot of world leading research in this field lately. This research tells us, that the presumed inability to penetrate the skin has been underestimated. Also there has been RA and other problems detected in direct connection with these products. This affects mostly people working in the industries directly involved with these products, but also people in the cosmetics industry and hair dressers etc. These health problems are scientifically investigated and proven.

However, any negative effects on the health in regards to its cosmetic use, has not been researched enough, and therefore is "undisclosed" to this date. Nor have petroleum oils in different combinations in cosmetic products been researched properly, so these remain undisclosed as well. All presumtions it would be safe are speculations, because of this fact. There are several negative effects presumed, but these are at best anecdotal to this date. So we dont know, really. We just think they are safe.

And then there is the issue of the biodegradability. It is not 100% there either.

/ CMG

[silverthread]

Trying something new today to supplement my CO, CWC, and OWC rotation. This is day 4 after a CO, and my scalp is still fairly clean but my hair is kinda crunchy from build-up. So, I rinsed with a gallon of filtered water and 2T ACV. No conditioner or shampoo. That's it. After squeezing out extra water, I worked a drop of sweet almond oil through the ends. Air drying now. I'll keep you posted on the results.

[caadam]

The thing is that cosmetic mineral oil doesn't contain PAHs or carcinogens, so that claim is rather untruthful (which is nothing against you, louzen. I'm just saying that what this person said isn't exactly adding up). Mineral oil that is used for machinery and such usually is found to have these carcinogens and is a TOTALLY different grade than cosmetic mineral oil which is highly purified to be safe for the skin.

I'm sure most chemists will tell you that mineral oil is the best moisturizer you can ever use, and is far better at this than botanicals (which is just true; many botanicals don't have as long of a lasting moisture retention ability as mineral oil does). Mineral oil is also easy to wash off, and its molecules are too big to clog pores. It just sits right on top of the skin, actually. Also, mineral oil DOES allow for moisture to get to the skin, and also keep present moisture on the skin. This same effect happens with hair. I would imagine mineral oil wouldn't be able to do this if too much is used, though.

As well, from my own personal experience, I find mineral oil to be kind of a lifesaver heavy-duty moisturizer for my skin. I have xerosis on my foot, and mineral oil is the only thing that helps to treat it. I've been using mineral oil on my xerosis now for 4 months and I've not seen this detrimental drying effect the quote talks about. I've actually seen an increase in my xerosis being LESS dry since using mineral oil.

The cons of mineral oil lie in its complete lack of nutrients compared to botanicals. While mineral oil is very moisturizing, it has no vitamins, no fatty acids to offer the body. However, and this has been suggested through ktani and others, including myself, using a choice oil first and then applying mineral oil can be especially beneficial. You get the benefits of mineral oil along with all the good stuff from that choice oil.

Mineral oil has also proven to help prevent damage on hair for lots of people, and some (though there's no real scientific evidence for it) believe it's a rather effective UV protectant for hair.

But another con of mineral is yes, it is a petroleum product. Buying it contributes to petroleum industries, and mineral oil is not a renewable source or biodegradable. However, when used the way it is suggested to be used here on LHC, it's likely to have less of an impact on the environment than using conditioner every wash (because most conventional conditioners are simply not entirely biodegradable, either). The amount of mineral oil used would only be a fraction in this case.

Another con is that mineral oil just doesn't work for everyone, just as not one oil is for everyone, too. Some people have sensitivities to mineral oil and can't use it, or find that it might make hair stringy no matter how little they use (or maybe it feels "greasy" on the skin). That doesn't make mineral oil bad, though, in the sense that it should never be used (not saying that anyone on this thread said that, but it's just a point I want to make). It's like saying because my hair doesn't like coconut oil, other people shouldn't use it because for me, it's just bad news. Doesn't work that way.

Either way, I can understand if more eco-conscious persons choose not to use mineral oil, but, well... I'm one for doing what works best for me. lol And again, I don't use a lot of mineral oil. I suspect my bottle will last me for YEARS. ;) Much longer than my family-sized bottle of Suave conditioner. LOL That won't even last a quarter of a year. Oi.

[Dragon Faery]

I just wanted to say, that adding oil to your co-wash is similar to 'Oil Rinsing (http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2011/04/how-to-oil-rinse-and-why-you-should/),' but quicker.

I would only recommend it to curlies, or to those with extremely dry or damaged hair. My hair drinks oil for happy hour. I can literally put a palm ful of EVOO into my hair and it disappears into softness.

This isn't for everyone, but if, like me, your hair is corrse, curly and you live in a dessert, it might help you through the summer. Try melted coconut oil if you prefer - I'm sure it would work wonders.

Thank you for posting this link! I'll try this on really dry days, as I live in a semi-desert climate. :cheese:

[kitschy]

Thank you, caadam, for posting that.

I use Mineral Oil, and I love it. I've used it on my skin, and in hair products for 55 years. I don't look old, I don't have cancer, I am not a walking grease-ball. I am not uninformed, nor ignorant.

Mineral oil has proven to be safe and effective in the 100 years it has been in use. One of our own, Ktani, has done research and written articles about MO safety and effectiveness.

I don't go on threads where someone has posted how they love their bleached highlights, or their SLS shampoo or even their cones and post about how 'bad' they are - it isn't really a very 'KNIT' thing to do.

Some posters might not want to try it - they've read negative information or whatever. That is their right, and that's great.

[cmg]

Good points, caadam!

And you are so right about when you compare the amounts used, in relation to other stuffs we put in our hair. Some people go thru alot in a year.

/ CMG

[firegypsy]

would the mineral oil sold as a "laxative" be cosmetic grade? I'd assume so. either way, mineral oil is a miracle for my hair. nothing else I've tried has done what mineral oil has. I'm an all natural gal, but when the natural products don't do diddly then I'm willing to look outside the biodegradable box. :p

[cmg]

The thing is that cosmetic mineral oil doesn't contain PAHs or carcinogens, so that claim is rather untruthful
That claim is untruthful, but not in the way you might think. Old production methods left inpurities in the oil products. It does not apply in a great extent today except for some of them, and they are used in cosmetics. All mineral oils used to contain some amounts of cancerogene PAH's = Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbones, as a residue from the production. There are very strict rules about the highest allowed amounts of these and the general public was concerned in many countries where traditionally animal fats or plant based oils were preferred. Concerning was also the fact (and still is!) that these oils were used everywhere. On top of chocolate, on apples, on licorice, on fabrics, in cosmetics, in home decoration, in paper-bakingcups, in heating oils, break oils, asphalt, solvents, pesticides, gasoline, hydraulic oils, perfume, sun tans, vitamin creams, nature-cure medicines, powders, shawing creams, eye-cosmetics, tooth paste, creams, soaps, hair dye, cleansers this and that EVERYWHERE and still is. Phuhh.

The problem is perhaps not so much the drops in our hair. Its everywhere.

Like I said in my earlier posting, these PAH amounts have decreased alot since the production methods became more refined in the 80:ies. But also there are additives of antioxidants like BHT and E-vitamin to prevent the forming of peroxides in the finished product. These substances will not be listed in the finished product.


Mineral oil that is used for machinery and such usually is found to have these carcinogens and is a TOTALLY different grade than cosmetic mineral oil which is highly purified to be safe for the skin.
Yes its totally different. There are hundreds of different types. But the ones used on skin care are not 100&#37; free of PAH even today. For example, the soft (medium to soft) parafines are still subject for testing and rigorous laws in Europe, because of the risk of these PAH still being found in them. These parafines are used fex in ointments, as parafine liquidum in cosmetics and for lubricating finer instruments And also: It was not the crude oils used in the tests that caused RA. It was specificly baby oil parrafine in some of the tests! These tests have been done repeatedly since 1998 until recently. They specificly target oils used in cosmetics.

/ CMG

[Dragon Faery]

Hi all! Just popping in to post a link to the third installment of my CO washing blog:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/blog.php?b=102086

Sorry it's been so long in coming. Life gets crazy sometimes. :p

[caadam]

would the mineral oil sold as a "laxative" be cosmetic grade? I'd assume so. either way, mineral oil is a miracle for my hair. nothing else I've tried has done what mineral oil has. I'm an all natural gal, but when the natural products don't do diddly then I'm willing to look outside the biodegradable box. :p

I use the laxative mineral oil. That's actually probably around the same exact grade, maybe even better because it's sold to be something you ingest (I'm not entirely sure, though). lol However... I don't think I want to ingest mineral oil. I know some people do, but... well, I'd rather take other routes. lol

And that's another thing, too. A lot people believe that mineral oil will somehow get into the bloodstream if you use it on your skin, and again, it doesn't work that way. Mineral can't even get into your pores because its molecules are too big! As well, the amount of detoxifying the skin does is not as much as your own liver does. We do most of our detoxifying through the liver and our urine. The skin actually doesn't do much detoxifying. As well, the skin doesn't actually "breathe," per se. While oxygen is good for it, mineral oil won't choke your skin, pun intended. ;)

The only ways mineral oil would be able to enter into the bloodstream is if you inject it (which is just like... duh), or if you ingest it. However, you would have to ingest A LOT in order for it to affect the bloodstream. It's also advised that you not inhale mineral oil. It sits on top of skin and creates a kind of sealant, right? Imagine what it'll do once it's inside your lungs. shudder:

ETA: Also, mineral oil IS technically natural. It was derived from the earth, after all, but has gone through many processes before being sold as the product it is. "Natural" has become such a interchangeable word nowadays.

[silverthread]

Trying something new today to supplement my CO, CWC, and OWC rotation. This is day 4 after a CO, and my scalp is still fairly clean but my hair is kinda crunchy from build-up. So, I rinsed with a gallon of filtered water and 2T ACV. No conditioner or shampoo. That's it. After squeezing out extra water, I worked a drop of sweet almond oil through the ends. Air drying now. I'll keep you posted on the results.

Post AVC-only experiment....YIKES! Lank, stringy hair. Won't do that again. Had to turn right around and do a CWC, and forgot to do a post-wash AVC rinse. My hair seems okay now. I just wish I could get consistent wave instead of almost straight/bendy on the left side and poofy/wave on the right. Guess I'll just have to keep growing it to see if the waves normalize at my goal of BSL.

[Louise148]

I've been Co'ing with Inecto Coconut conditioner for a few weeks now and find it suits my hair really nicely. However I do tend to get bored using the same thing all the time so i brought some Alberto Balsam Rassberry ripple conditioner (only 97p...bargain :D and used it this morning. Have to say it is equally as good as the inecto Coconut and smells lovely.

I love finding new things that float my hair (or in this case my haor boat) :)

Lou x

[caadam]

I have a question, cmg: do you know if the purification process of mineral oil in Europe and these other countries you mentioned is the same as the process in the US? Or is that relevant? lol I was just curious because I thought about it right now and figured I'd asked. And if you DO know, would you mind linking me to some sources I can read about it (if it's possible)? I would really appreciate it. :flower:

[caadam]

Like I said in my earlier posting, these PAH amounts have decreased alot since the production methods became more refined in the 80:ies. But also there are additives of antioxidants like BHT and E-vitamin to prevent the forming of peroxides in the finished product. These substances will not be listed in the finished product.

/ CMG

Actually, I just looked at my bottle of mineral oil, and the inactive ingredients were listed: vitamin E! :D So it makes me wonder, again, if there is some difference in how Europe and other countries handle their mineral oil.

[cmg]

would the mineral oil sold as a "laxative" be cosmetic grade?
I have no clue, this seems to be traditionally an American "thing". Mineral oils have been used as wondrous healing oils in many ways over there (historically: Drake oil, Indian oil etc). It has been used in folk medicine as a laxative here in Sweden too since the 1700-hundreds, but other uses seem to have dominated. Usually this was actually clear mineral oils coming from wells, rather than distilled modern products. Today this is not a big thing in Sweden, this seems to be more of a industry over in America, so I cant answer what "grade" this would be today.


Actually, I just looked at my bottle of mineral oil, and the inactive ingredients were listed: vitamin E! So it makes me wonder, again, if there is some difference in how Europe and other countries handle their mineral oil.
Was this relly listed as "inactive ingredient"? An ingredients list is a list of active ingredients, not an analysis of contents. The E-vitamine here has probably nothing to do with the mineral oil (or other ingredints). It is added for specific purposes in the end product.

/ CMG

[caadam]

Was this relly listed as "inactive ingredient"? An ingredients list is a list of active ingredients, not an analysis of contents. The E-vitamine here has probably nothing to do with the mineral oil (or other ingredints). It is added for specific purposes in the end product.

/ CMG

Well, The active ingredient is mineral oil (dur, I'm stating the obvious lol), and the vitamin E is listed under "Inactive Ingredient" as a stabilizer. So it's like what you said before (about additives being used in mineral oil), but it seems that on my bottle, this ingredient is clearly listed.

[cmg]

I see, this classification is different here. We have all of these listed as "active ingredients" and things being added to the ingredients themselves are not listed at all. Only ingredients in the end product are listed if this makes sense to you :) Exeptions of course are fex allergenes, like "this product may contain trace elements of nuts" if the product has been in touch with baking forms that previously contained them and so on.

(I hope my internet doesnt breake off again, this is the third time I write this down :(


I have a question, cmg: do you know if the purification process of mineral oil in Europe and these other countries you mentioned is the same as the process in the US?
To my knowledge the laws and regulations may differ, but not so much the processing. The mineral oil found in different places varies in composition (se list below). The essential destillation process and refining should be the same though. The petroleum oils are harvested thru drilling (natural springs occur but they are rare). They are practicly useless before further treatment. They are distilled and then fractionated. They are usually mixed at this stage, so that the desired properties are achieved. The oil typically contains paraffinic, naphtenic and aromatic compounds, which percentage varies with the origin:

If you whish to google for info on oils, perhaps this easy classification will help for starters:
These are the base oils:
1.
Paraffinic base oils CnH 2n+2 containing paraffinic hydrocarbons. They come from USA (Pennsylvania, Ohio). Good petrol and low proportion of asphalt.
2.
Naphten base oils CnH 2n containing naphtenic hydrocarbons. Them you can find in Russia and Rumania. Also good petrol.
3.
Asphalt base oils which are very viscous. They come from the american continent: California, Mexico and Venezuela.
4.
Mixed base oils. They can be a blend of 1, 2 and 3. This type you can find in the American continent and Asia: Kansas, Oklahoma, Mexico, Irak and Iran.

Not all oils come brown and thickish out of the ground, they can be like "greek fire" or like water. The oil industry classifies "crude" by their origin and often by its weight and or viscosity. Also they can be reffered to as "sweet" (with or without sulphur content). Before they are finished products for the cosmetic industry fex, they are tested in laboratories for their molecular characteristics and mixed to perform in various ways. The compositions are then sold to manufacturers under different names, who use them in various products where they perform as desired. All and any of these end products can appear in cosmetic products.

The production isnt really any mystery. Its the legislations regarding safety that seems to differ a lot. Last winter I was trying to find out more about the diffrent classifications in the US continent and compare them to what's what in Europe, and there were alot of differeneces. Its a djungle. Also there is alot confusion as to terminology. So read anything with caution. Example: fotogen in Europe means petroleum in many languages, but is translated to paraffin or kerosene in English. Historical texts also refer to different things than today. In my line of work I often have to correct translations or mislabellings.

/ CMG

[caadam]

Thank you very much for your informative post, cmg! You're very helpful. :D

[firegypsy]

I have never heard of mineral oil being used in folk medicine. Castor oil, yes, but never mineral oil. Huh. Learn something new every day...

[caadam]

I have never heard of mineral oil being used in folk medicine. Castor oil, yes, but never mineral oil. Huh. Learn something new every day...

Mineral oil hasn't been around for a VERY long time (a little over a century, I believe), but long enough there are lots of older remedies that revolve around it. :)

[firegypsy]

It's fascinating-that's my world and I've just never heard of it. I must go forth and gather information. :)

[Tisiloves]

Ok, so I 2-step CO washed and it was great the problem is that my usual wash routine looks like this (I swim twice a week):

Heavy oil hair (1-2 tbsp of olive or coconut) and wear a swim cap.

Swim (try not to drown the stupid people that get in your way).

Wash hair at swimming pool with L'Oreal Kids Swim n Sun 2in1.

Go home with wet hair and apply generously coconut oil then Timotei Cherry Conditioner for coloured hair, let sit for 30 mins+.


So big question, do you think I could apply my step one conditioner (ASDA smart price, cone free, very runny) before swimming, rinse at the pool and do the second step as normal?

[cmg]

Not sure about medical uses, but mineral oils have already been used by the old egyptians for enbalming (asphalt type mineral oil)! In china there were also some very early uses centuries ago. It does occur naturally in "springs" and us humans are very inventive as soon as we detect something new and intresting. :stirpot:

I would say, there is a big leap though between putting it inside dead humans and coating chocolate bars with the stuff :disgust:

Just to be complete: I forgot to mention that besides the distilling and fractionating, the oils are also filtered before various usages.

/ CMG

[cmg]

Tisiloves: I suspect your conditioner will rinse away too easy. At least from the outer parts of your braid. The only thing not rinsing away would be oil. How about this mixture: olive oil, coconut oil and honey in equal amounts sprayed on as a coating before swimming? Dilute with water if necessary. Aloe Vera and glycerine might also work, but they will rinse off easily in the pool. I think you really need to take care of your hair if you swim several times every week.

/ CMG

Hmm, I just assumed there was a braid. Perhaps there wasnt :)

[Tisiloves]

Tisiloves: I suspect your conditioner will rinse away too easy. At least from the outer parts of your braid. The only thing not rinsing away would be oil. How about this mixture: olive oil, coconut oil and honey in equal amounts sprayed on as a coating before swimming? Dilute with water if necessary. Aloe Vera and glycerine might also work, but they will rinse off easily in the pool. I think you really need to take care of your hair if you swim several times every week.

/ CMG

I do wear a swim cap, so it's only really my edge hairs that are exposed to the pool water. I do end up damp, but it's a pretty good cap.

Also I already heavy oil and my hair hates honey ( maybe it has a pollen allergy:p).

[cmg]

Oh OK, hair with pollen allergy :D

I cant wear swim caps myself, I am allergic to them (really).

/ CMG

[Tisiloves]

Oh OK, hair with pollen allergy :D

I cant wear swim caps myself, I am allergic to them (really).

/ CMG

Even the silicone ones?

ETA: It make sense that my hair's allergic to pollen, because the rest of me's allergic to hairspray.

[cmg]

Even the silicone ones?
I have not dared to try them yet, because I am allergic to all sorts of surgical gloves. Funny though, I am not allergic to my silicone baking molds :p


ETA: It make sense that my hair's allergic to pollen, because the rest of me's allergic to hairspray.
Ha ha ;)

/ CMG

[brave]

What's the consensus on cones like Phenyl Trimethicone? I'm dying to try Aveda's Be Curly Curl Enhancer, ingredients:

Aqueous Extracts: Linum Usitatissimum Extract, Althea Officianalis Extract (marshmallow-natural hold), Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Extract, Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetyl Alcohol, Phenyl Trimethicone, Behentrimonium Chloride, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein, Panthenol, Fragrance, Geraniol, Linalool, Citronellol, Amly Cinnamal, Limonene, Cinnamidopropyltrimonium Chloride, Polyquaternium 11, Glycerin, Tocopherol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Phenoxyethanol (reformulated late 2006)
I'm hoping the hydrolyzed wheat protein will be slight enough to not cause too many problems, but my hair seems to really like products with Althea Officianalis Extract. However the cone and the polyquat make me wonder if this product will require shampooing.

[afu]

Ok UK CO'ers - I've used Morrisons jojoba for 4 washes now (single stage) and it is the most perfect conditioner for CO I've ever used :D I dilute it equal parts with water because it is very thick (even diluted it is still only like yoghurt consistancy), It lathers up brilliantly and I can be in and out of the shower within a few minutes. It makes my hair feel squeeky clean but leaves it hydrated, soft and silky. So glad I found this stuff :D

p.s. It cost be about 80p for 750ml (diluted makes double) and the ingredients are cone free and simple

[Louise148]

Ok UK CO'ers - I've used Morrisons jojoba for 4 washes now (single stage) and it is the most perfect conditioner for CO I've ever used :D I dilute it equal parts with water because it is very thick (even diluted it is still only like yoghurt consistancy), It lathers up brilliantly and I can be in and out of the shower within a few minutes. It makes my hair feel squeeky clean but leaves it hydrated, soft and silky. So glad I found this stuff :D

p.s. It cost be about 80p for 750ml (diluted makes double) and the ingredients are cone free and simple

Thanks for this heads up. I will probably be poppoing into Morrisons at some point over the weekend so I will keep my eyes open for this one.

Lou x

[kaydana]

Ok UK CO'ers - I've used Morrisons jojoba for 4 washes now (single stage) and it is the most perfect conditioner for CO I've ever used :D I dilute it equal parts with water because it is very thick (even diluted it is still only like yoghurt consistancy), It lathers up brilliantly and I can be in and out of the shower within a few minutes. It makes my hair feel squeeky clean but leaves it hydrated, soft and silky. So glad I found this stuff :D

p.s. It cost be about 80p for 750ml (diluted makes double) and the ingredients are cone free and simple

wow, I thought the Tesco one was cheap! I'll have to find a Morrisons and give this one a try, thanks!

[Alexblue]

Thought I'd post a little update: I am 5 weeks into my new CO wash routine and now can't imagine ever returning to shampoo!. Other than the occasion chelating shampoo (curse the hard water in my neighbourhood!).

My hair is much softer and shinier these days. There was a bit of a transition period the first 2 weeks but it wasn't too noticeable.
As an unexpected bonus, I see my hair is much wavier than I originally thought. I'm pretty sure that since cutting out drying shampoos, my hair has a lot more moisture now and if I want to scrunch while drying, I can get pretty epic curls (well, epic for me). Or gently fingercomb wet hair for soft waves. Best of both worlds!

I'm also having fun experimenting with different conditioners (must try the Morrisons Jojoba too, thanks Afu).

Anyways, sorry for gushing but I'm really excited to see this improvement in only 5 weeks.

Sincerely,
Newest member of the CO appreciate society

[Dovetail]

Alex! Im so glad it's working for you.

I'm very happy. I was having some issues with greasiness using the v05 but I clarified for my hair typing, and now the v05 is working like a charm! I figure it must have been cone buildup. It's kind of hard to stretch washes when all I want to do is use up all the conditioner so I can go buy more "flavors" :p the $$ shop had a pretty bad selection so next time I'm going to check the Walmart.

[luxepiggy]

What's the consensus on cones like Phenyl Trimethicone? I'm dying to try Aveda's Be Curly Curl Enhancer, ingredients:

I'm hoping the hydrolyzed wheat protein will be slight enough to not cause too many problems, but my hair seems to really like products with Althea Officianalis Extract. However the cone and the polyquat make me wonder if this product will require shampooing.

I can't answer for the polyquat, but I LOVE phenyl trimethicone. My shine spray (which I use daily) contains it, and I've not had any problems (^(oo)^)v

[cmg]

What's the consensus on cones like Phenyl Trimethicone?
What do you mean "like Phenyl Trimethicone"? Shiney ones versus conditioning ones? I dont really know, but I would speculate this one would not cause as much of a buildup as the thicker, coating ones.

/ CMG

[cmg]

Sounds great, Alexblue!

/ CMG

[violinmom]

is this method good for fine/ thin hair? I've lost a lot due to illness but am on the road to recovery now and working to do right by my hair. This sounds like a gentler option?

[Dovetail]

I have fine hair, and it's been great for me so far, I'm not a curly as you though. The only issue I had was switching from cone to non cone, I had to clarify inbetween since my hair got all gunky on me from the switch up. :o your mileage may vary though!

[Alexblue]

Thank you Dovetail and cmg :-)

Violinmom, I have fine hair and it works for me as well. I had a massive shed in 2011 with my first and last Brazilian Keratin Treatment (you can see my thin ends in my avatar). Slowly getting back my hair back. CO is definitely worth trying. It doesn't coat or weigh down fine hair, just try different conditioners and see what works best for your hair.

[brave]

What do you mean "like Phenyl Trimethicone"? Shiney ones versus conditioning ones? I dont really know, but I would speculate this one would not cause as much of a buildup as the thicker, coating ones.

/ CMG
Phenyl Trimethicone just seems to not be mentioned much anywhere, so I guess that's what I meant "like" for. Bad phrasing, sorry.

Pantene Ice Shine seems to work well for clumping but it feels a little dry and tangly in the shower. After my splurge today I have forbidden myself from buying any more conditioners for oh, quite some time. The Aveda Curl Enhancer does seem to work quite well -- my hair is clumping probably better than it ever has and looks full and happy and a little curlier than usual.

I would be interested in seeing some kind of poll or something to see if there's a correlation of any kind between coarseness/fineness of hair and use of cones. It seems like finer haired individuals are better able to stick to the original curly girl concept -- thin coneless conditioner, thick coneless conditioner left in slightly, and gel. But I might be completely wrong here.

[luxepiggy]

Pantene Ice Shine seems to work well for clumping but it feels a little dry and tangly in the shower. After my splurge today I have forbidden myself from buying any more conditioners for oh, quite some time. The Aveda Curl Enhancer does seem to work quite well -- my hair is clumping probably better than it ever has and looks full and happy and a little curlier than usual.

That is really, really odd. My experience with Ice Shine is exactly the opposite. It is my #1 choice for showertime detangling; I put it on my length and ends to prevent tangles as I turn my head upside down to rinse out my "cleansing" conditioner from the scalp/root area.

What else are you using right now? Maybe there is some kind of adverse interaction with another one of your products?

[brave]

I've been using a coneless conditioner to clean -- either Suave ocean something or Trader Joes Tea Tree Tingle. I rinse that off, use Ice Shine all over. After rinsing I put in Kinky-Curly Knot Today, and I think last time I used a coney spray with amodimethicone which might be the culprit?

Silicones let me have 2d day hair, I've discovered. And you were right, the Aveda Curl Enhancer really does boost shine.

[JellyBene]

I have a question for ling time COers, evry time I try Coing, it works heavenly for the first couple weeks, and then I start massively shedding. I have heard of a few other people experiencing this and I am wondering, is there anything to be done about this? Does it ever go away on it's own?

[firegypsy]

I have a question for ling time COers, evry time I try Coing, it works heavenly for the first couple weeks, and then I start massively shedding. I have heard of a few other people experiencing this and I am wondering, is there anything to be done about this? Does it ever go away on it's own?


this was me too. I'm curious about it as well. I think maybe I'll try it again, without putting CO on my head before getting in the shower? I don't know....

Can I get some targeted feedback on TJ's condish? Does anyone know if it has wheat?

I keep reading it's cone free, so I think I may try that next....

[caadam]

Trader Joe's condish? I got that! Well, at least one of them...

TJ's tea tree condish is the CO washing-friendly one. I have the Nourish Spa one, and from personal experience, it didn't do the job. It works as a very nice body wash, though. :D

I looked at the ingredients for the tea tree condish and didn't see any wheat in it, and it is cone-free. It's mostly water, botanicals, fatty alcohol, and just a couple of preservatives.

[firegypsy]

Maybe I'll try it.

My hair seems to like cones (probably because I dyed the hell out of it.) But I'd like to see if I can find a cone free CO that works.

[cmg]

it works heavenly for the first couple weeks, and then I start massively shedding.
What you are experiencing is the effect of the cones, waxes, mineral oils etc. leaving the hair shafts. The hair is back to its original state and has to support itself. By itself the old worn out hairs only last for a while. The bad ones shed, thats inevitable. The inustry gives you a false sense of security with the cones, thats it. With the new CO-regime you have a chance to take care of your hair so it wount need this extra support. I for one will never go back to that state. My hair has never felt better!

/ CMG

[firegypsy]

If that's actually what it is, then I'll go back. I just get really sensitive since losing so much hair due to a health issue. I see sheds and I get uncomfortable. I don't freak out, but I may make false assumptions based on my observations.

Is it possible that leaving CO on the scalp too long can be a problem?

Why or how do cones make you hold on to hair longer? If you don't mind taking the time to explain that is!

[cmg]

I just remembered another thing: Conditioners usually have lower pH-level than shampoos. If you use conditioners and no shampoos any more, also mineral deposits from the water hardiness can be rinsed away, which adds to the softening of the structural support of the hairs. Every little thing will contribute to this initial negative outcome.

I didnt experience this shedding very pronounced myself. I guess I have so much shedding at any given day, it didnt turn up on the radar really.

/ CMG

[firegypsy]

CMG, thank you.

That's my problem though....I never shed less than 100 hairs a day-usually more. When I did the CO I had a few days where I had to clean out the hair trap MID SHOWER to keep going. And combing it out it just continued to fall.

I have significant sheds daily (not worried about it really-it's nothing like it was) so the massive uptick was unnerving.

[cmg]

If that's actually what it is, then I'll go back. I just get really sensitive since losing so much hair due to a health issue. I see sheds and I get uncomfortable. I don't freak out, but I may make false assumptions based on my observations.
I know! I am sensitive that way too. But since I started the CO-regime I realized "I still have enough hair on my head". I'm taking this much more relaxed nowadays. Today, about two years in the routine, I have never had better hair. Still have the hair loss for medical reasons, but my hair looks and feels better than ever before!


Is it possible that leaving CO on the scalp too long can be a problem?
I have read from a lot of people, that this could have some importance. I guess, neither shampoo or condish should be left for too long on your skin. Some people may be more sensitive than others. I never leave it on for very long. My washing process does not involve any reaction time or waiting. I rub some in and then I rinse it out. This may not work for everyone or with every condish.


Why or how do cones make you hold on to hair longer? If you don't mind taking the time to explain that is!
The coating on the hair supports it. The hair on its own is weaker.

Also the whole process of putting cones in your hair with the condish, then cleaning it away with a SLES (or similar cleaning agent) will bring every single hair shaft thru a trip of cleaning and coating, with is damaging in the long run, thus weakening the hairs own protecting surface. When the surface is ruined, the structural damage will follow. The cones etc will prolong the durability of damaged hairs, but this is a false security. Left on its own, the hair is still damaged. So when the cones etc are removed, the hair brakes off.

When the cones and the SLES are removed from your washing routines, the hair will recover (not really recover, but the hair that grows out from now on will not become damaged to begin with).

Perhaps there is also an additional effect of long lasting, hardened waxes loosening from the scalp, leaving the hairs abit looser letting them fall off. They may have been some hairs that should have fallen off earlier (being at the end of their normal life cycle).

I dont know of any real scientific research on what happens on hair that changes over to the CO-method, so I am only speculating of course. But this seems to me be the most fitting explanations to the initial hair shedding. I have not read anywhere, that this effect would be a lasting one.

But then again, your mileage may vary.

/ CMG

[caadam]

Hmmm... I never experienced extra shedding with CO washing. When I first came to LHC, I was CO for about a year and then went into WO for 4 months. WO method didn't really reveal to me the true state of my hair other than dealing with excessive oil production, but now that's pretty under control. My hair is pretty much the same with or without conditioner, except for some extra slip and softness from conditioner, which I expected.

Actually, my hair was pretty soft during WO once I learned what worked for me. The only reason I stopped was because my scalp refused to transition no matter what I did to help it. I find that using an oil on my scalp works best, though, but I prefer using oil on my scalp teamed up with conditioner for distribution purposes.

My hair will get dry on its own or when I'm dealing with buildup. I just treat it when it needs moisture and do what works for me. :)

[JellyBene]

Cmg I actually don't use cones to begin with, so maybe my hair just isn't used to such a gente cleansing method.

[louzen]

Hi everyone

Apologies for going a bit off topic, but I would like to get some advice from the very knowledgeable people on this thread :)

I have some dry patches on my scalp which regular oiling for 7 months has not budged. CO washing has been helping me greatly, however, I still have these stubborn patches. I found a non-steroidal ointment that I would like to apply to the dry patches on my scalp. The ointment isn't targeted for the scalp - it's just a general ointment for dry skin. The ingredients are:

Ingredients (Natural Origin):
Aloe Barbadensis, Butyrosperum Parkii (Shea Butter), Cetearyl Alcohol (from Palm and Coconut Oil), Borago Officinalis (Borage Oil), Cera Alba (Beeswax), Prunus Dulcis (Sweet Almond Oil), Glycerin (Vegetable source), Cetearyl Glucoside (from Glucose), Brassica Campestris (Rapeseed) Sterols, Zinc Oxide (Mineral source), Capryloyl Glycine (from Palm and Sunflower seeds), Rosa Moschata (Rose Oil), Theobroma Cacao (Cocoa Butter), Tocopheryl Acetate (from Cereals), Glycyrrhetinic Acid (from Liquorice Root), Hyaluronic Acid (Natural Mucopolysaccharide), Xanthan Gum (Natural), Citric Acid.

What I would like to know is this - Is it ok to rub in an ointment like this onto the scalp and leave it on? I wash my hair every 2-3 days, so it would be on my scalp for that duration. I wouldn't do it all the time - perhaps once a week and only on the dry patches. I tried it a bit and it seemed to help greatly, but I'm worried it would cause more harm than good in the long run, possibly blocking pores? (apologies for being so paranoid, but I had a reaction on my scalp a while back which took me months to recover from and I'm also trying to recover from some hair thinning so want to tread very carefully)

[louzen]

is this method good for fine/ thin hair? I've lost a lot due to illness but am on the road to recovery now and working to do right by my hair. This sounds like a gentler option?

Hi violinmom. I have fine hair too and it works great for me. I get lots of volume that I don't get with shampoo. You might have a transition period where your hair gets more greasy than it usually would, but that's normal. Make sure you massage the conditioner very well into your scalp as you would shampoo to thoroughly clean the scalp and rinse off well. Happy CO-washing :)

[fridgee]

Louzen I can't see any problem with that cream, it actually sounds lovely! I heard beeswax can build up on hair and be, well, waxy, so you may need to clarify occasionally, but that's a small price if it finally makes your scalp happy. :flower:

[Tisiloves]

What I would like to know is this - Is it ok to rub in an ointment like this onto the scalp and leave it on? I wash my hair every 2-3 days, so it would be on my scalp for that duration. I wouldn't do it all the time - perhaps once a week and only on the dry patches. I tried it a bit and it seemed to help greatly, but I'm worried it would cause more harm than good in the long run, possibly blocking pores? (apologies for being so paranoid, but I had a reaction on my scalp a while back which took me months to recover from and I'm also trying to recover from some hair thinning so want to tread very carefully)


It seems to be mostly typical hair stuff (aloe, oils, butters), but zinc oxide can block pores although it is very low on the comedogenesis scale. So as long as you wash really well when you do wash I should imagine you'd be ok, if you scalp is fine with oiling.

[cmg]

Yes I think so too. If there is enough of it, zinc oxide dries out the skin, but is also protecting it. The composition of the product seems ideal. PH could be set to a slightly acidic level, which is ok and similar to the scalps own sebum.

Sometimes just plain water can make the skin dry. It is different for everyone. The other stuffs in that ointment are not really clogging pores under normal conditions.

/ CMG

[caadam]

Hey, ya'll. I gotta share some thoughts about my CO routine:

I'm feeling a bit conflicted. :( So, a few days ago, I clarified my hair due to some buildup making my ends dry and crunchy. I clarified my length with Neutrogena anti-residue 'poo and washed my scalp with Suave Rosemary Mint 'poo (I didn't want to clarify my scalp TOO much, or else it'll flip out). After I got out of the shower, I squeezed the excess water out of my hair, combed, and then put on a light coating of mineral oil.

When my hair was dry, I was very surprised. I've always had nice results from mineral oil, but not like this—my hair was super soft, frizz-free, and incredibly shiny. My ends were so soft and happy.

A few days past after I clarified and I did my usual CO wash. As my hair dried... I was a little flustered. I finally started to notice an obvious difference between my hair when it had no condish on it at all and when I was using condish, and really, my hair seems to be in better condition without it. My ends felt dry and slightly crunchy again, and the overall softness and shine of my hair was much duller.

So I'm not sure what to do. Maybe change my conditioner? I got so much of it, though, because it was really all I knew, and anything else usually made my hair and scalp worse (VO5 usually makes my scalp itch and smells a bit too strong; White Rain made my scalp itch, too). I think what's creating this difference is the silicone in it, which I never figured was a problem until after I experienced my hair without it at all! It's like my hair doesn't need silicone in its current condition, but just some extra moisture to keep it happy.

So... what do you ladies/guys suggest? Get rid of my beloved Rosemary Mint condish, or maybe consider not doing the CO method? The only issue I got with shampooing every few days and using mineral oil is that I don't want my hair to suffer any damage from being clarified too often. The matter is that my oil production usually gets out of hand after 3-4 days, and my scalp needs the extra help in order to keep dandruff under control. I'll need to wash at least twice a week.

Any suggestions would be well appreciated. :flower:

[firegypsy]

I wish I had advice. So far my hair seems to prefer shampoo, conditioner and mineral oil. I'm trying to get away from the poo, but haven't found a CO that my head likes yet.

If I were you I would try another CO. I am not an expert at all, but people talk about protein heavy CO's and moisture heavy CO's. Is it possible (and others may know off the bat) that you're using a protein rich CO, hence the crunch?

[caadam]

I wish I had advice. So far my hair seems to prefer shampoo, conditioner and mineral oil. I'm trying to get away from the poo, but haven't found a CO that my head likes yet.

If I were you I would try another CO. I am not an expert at all, but people talk about protein heavy CO's and moisture heavy CO's. Is it possible (and others may know off the bat) that you're using a protein rich CO, hence the crunch?

You would think, right? But actually, this conditioner doesn't have protein in it! I know that silicone will cause some dryness and crunchiness for people, much like how protein will do the same thing.

Maybe I can list the Suave ingredients:

Water (Aqua), Cetearyl Alcohol, Cyclopentasiloxane, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Eucalyptus Globulus Leaf Oil, Mentha Viridis (Spearmint) Leaf Oil, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice [Aloe Vera], Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Oil [Lemongrass], Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Oil, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower/Leaf Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Dimethiconol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Fragrance (Parfum), Dipropylene Glycol, Potassium Chloride, Lactic Acid, Disodium EDTA, DMDM Hydantoin, TEA-Dodecylbenzenesulfonate, PEG-150 Distearate, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone

[Amanah]

I had to quit using Suave Coconut as it eventually made my scalp and hair dry.
Instead I've been using Hair One, and Ice Shine conditioner with a dab of a blend of SAO & Jojoba oil from the ears down.

[Dovetail]

Maybe try a cwc once every few days or whatever? :3 it's hard to find that ONE THING that makes your hair commercial perfect. I'm still looking too

[Neecola]

So I'm not sure what to do. Maybe change my conditioner? I got so much of it, though, because it was really all I knew, and anything else usually made my hair and scalp worse (VO5 usually makes my scalp itch and smells a bit too strong; White Rain made my scalp itch, too). I think what's creating this difference is the silicone in it, which I never figured was a problem until after I experienced my hair without it at all! It's like my hair doesn't need silicone in its current condition, but just some extra moisture to keep it happy.


I vote for trying a different conditioner before giving up. It sounds like maybe the silicones are building up?

I thought CO wasn't working for me until I started experimenting with different conditioners. For me, the Trader Joe's Tea Tree Tingle is my favorite. I can now also switch off with VO5 (something I couldn't use before TTT)

That said, there is no one-size-fits-all routine and it is possible that CO is not the ideal way to clean your hair. Keep us posted!

[firegypsy]

I just bought TJ's TTT today. I'm psyched to try it!

[caadam]

I vote for trying a different conditioner before giving up. It sounds like maybe the silicones are building up?

I thought CO wasn't working for me until I started experimenting with different conditioners. For me, the Trader Joe's Tea Tree Tingle is my favorite. I can now also switch off with VO5 (something I couldn't use before TTT)

That said, there is no one-size-fits-all routine and it is possible that CO is not the ideal way to clean your hair. Keep us posted!

You're totally right and I've always believed that. :) There is no universal routine for hair, and I do like to remind others of that. We're all so different and we need to figure out what works for ourselves, and realize that it could be a different story for someone else.

I'll try TJ's tea tree condish. I haven't tried it yet, but I have tried the Nourish Spa from TJ with little success. It left my hair oily and heavy.

And I think it might be the silicone in my current condish. It wasn't so much a buildup problem, because as I said, I noticed this dry and crunchy problem after I used my conditioner three days after I clarified. So I think my hair just doesn't respond very well to silicone in general, which is a shame. lol

I've also gone through Tresemme, Vive, and like I said, TJ's Nourish Spa conditioner, along with VO5, White Rain, and Suave. Oh, and also Pantene's Aqualight condish, which worked pretty well, but I wasn't crazy about the smell.

When I first came onto LHC, I went into CO after experimenting with what I thought worked best for me. I was CO for a little over a year, then was WO for 4 months. Now I'm back to CO, have been for a few weeks now, so we'll see what happens. The only reason why I'm kind of considering either just trying a different condish or trying a different method is because I wasn't really aware of the immense difference clarifying and using mineral oil would do until I tried it for myself. So now, I'm kind of at a crossroads, but I'm definitely not going to jump any boats too quickly. lol :) That's why I wanted some suggestions so I can think on it, which I'm really appreciating from everyone so far.

[cmg]

Maybe I can list the Suave ingredients:

Water (Aqua), Cetearyl Alcohol, Cyclopentasiloxane, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Eucalyptus Globulus Leaf Oil, Mentha Viridis (Spearmint) Leaf Oil, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice [Aloe Vera], Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Oil [Lemongrass], Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Oil, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower/Leaf Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Dimethiconol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Fragrance (Parfum), Dipropylene Glycol, Potassium Chloride, Lactic Acid, Disodium EDTA, DMDM Hydantoin, TEA-Dodecylbenzenesulfonate, PEG-150 Distearate, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone
Lots of stuff coating the hair here. Perhaps the alcohol is dulling the hair in the long run too.
And no less than four powerful preservatives/antifunguses. One of them releasing formaldehyde.

This was very educational for me to see the ingredients of the Suave product. So many people using it and finding it great here on LHC. But I must say, the ingredients seem contraproductive for the whole concept of the CO-method, which is to avoid cones and the harsher removals of them.


...., and really, my hair seems to be in better condition without it. My ends felt dry and slightly crunchy again, and the overall softness and shine of my hair was much duller.

So I'm not sure what to do. Maybe change my conditioner?
That may very well be the solution for your hair at this time. I can tell you from my experience, that I had a period like this also, and I threw away alot of products then. I havent missed them since. Perhaps your hair is telling you its time to do the "real" CO-thing whithout cones?

The hair does not always behave the same. It will change many times. You may have to modify your products and methods more than once in your hair journey :)

Some articles you might want to read:

Something about overusing silicones or oils can dull the hair:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=185
And more reading:
http://www.curlynikki.com/2011/10/silicone-hair-products-not-so-bad.html
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=194

/ CMG

[caadam]

Technically, I wasn't overusing my conditioner; I realized the difference between using my conditioner and not using it after just one CO wash. lol Not multiple washes. :)

I've also changed my hair routine multiple times over a year and a half, so yeah, I've experienced many changes in my hair's condition and needs. This is just another, I suppose.

I read that article on silicone. I'm glad ktani wrote about it. I've also got a couple of things to try, see how it works out for the next couple of weeks.

Though one thing: there are some people on here who CO wash pretty successfully with conditioners with silicone products and find they don't need to clarify often, so I don't think a silicone conditioner is completely counterproductive in a CO routine, but less common. I just don't happen to be a part of that group, heh. One of the original ideas of CO washing was to avoid harsher cleansers more often, like SLS. Instead, the idea was to use gentler cleansers that can be found in conditioner. Silicone seems to just be a preference for people.

[brave]

You might try looking into Everyday Shea's conditioners.

Aqueous Shea Leaf (Butyrospermum parkii) Extract, Handcrafted Shea (Butyrospermum parkii) Butter, Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Behentrimonium Chloride, Emulsifying Wax, Palm Stearic Acid, Lavender Essential Oil, Phenoxyethanol, Potassium Sorbate, Citric Acid.
One of the thicker cone-free conditioners I've found. A little harder to get through the hair, since it doesn't have a ton of slip. But it sounds like your hair enjoys something a little heavier than the normal suave/VO5. Good luck! I hope you find your magic solution :)

[CurlyCap]

WOW.

Based on the rave reviews in this thread, I picked up some Pantene Ice Shine today. I was skeptical because the last time I used Pantene (over 10 years ago), it was just smelly and did nothing for me, regardless of the formulation.

This stuff was magical. You have to understand that as a curly, I NEVER have an easy time detangling. That's why I detangle in the shower with my head full of conditioner. With the Ice Shine, my hair just coasted through my fingers. I hadn't felt anything like that before.

I was so impressed that I put some (just a little! it was amazing!) in as a leave-in. I want to see how it does in terms of clumping and defining my curls.

But I am very, very impressed. Totally didn't expect this result. I'm gonna keep my eye out for build up due to the cones, but I figure even if I have to alternate with low-cone conditioner, it'll be worth it for that kind of easy in detangling.

WOW.

[battles]

I may have finally gotten CO to work for me! :rockerdud

It turns out that my hair doesn't like V05 or Suave, and that was all I had tried before. They both made my hair immediately feel waxy and kind of greasy and gross, no matter what I did with it.

I recently bought a bottle of Tressemme Naturals and it makes it feel all lovely and silky. :inlove: I haven't found a single tangle for days. I just need to find a better second conditioner.

I just hope this continues to work!

[fridgee]

WOW.

Based on the rave reviews in this thread, I picked up some Pantene Ice Shine today.

(snip)

But I am very, very impressed. Totally didn't expect this result. I'm gonna keep my eye out for build up due to the cones, but I figure even if I have to alternate with low-cone conditioner, it'll be worth it for that kind of easy in detangling.

WOW.

Great news! And you'll be happy to know the silicone in ice shine is resistant buildup because it doesn't like to stick to itself, so you shouldn't find you need to clarify often :) I actually just tried ice shine last wash too. Wasn't blown away, but I was already using a conditioner with a similar cone in it and I'd say they gave very similar results (which I like nonetheless!)

Congratulations on getting it to work battles! :cheese: I use tresemme Naturals too :)

[louzen]

Thanks fridgee, Tisiloves and cmg for your replies. You have put my (paranoid) mind at rest :)

I'll continue to use it but sparingly since I find it hard to clarify. Every clarifying shampoo I've tried totally dries out my scalp (even when I apply conditioner afterwards) and is then upset for about a week afterwards *sigh*



Sometimes just plain water can make the skin dry. It is different for everyone. The other stuffs in that ointment are not really clogging pores under normal conditions.
/ CMG

Yep, I found this. I tried WO once but had to stop since it was drying me out! I live in a hard water area, so I guess that could be contributing to my scalp woes.

[louzen]

You might try looking into Everyday Shea's conditioners.

One of the thicker cone-free conditioners I've found. A little harder to get through the hair, since it doesn't have a ton of slip. But it sounds like your hair enjoys something a little heavier than the normal suave/VO5. Good luck! I hope you find your magic solution :)

This conditioner looks lovely - might give it a try :) I find it so hard to find shampoos and conditioners with as few harsh chemicals/fragrances/preservatives in the ingredients (I'm using Green People unscented conditioner (http://www.greenpeople.co.uk/organic-base-no-scent-conditioner-200ml.aspx) at the moment). When I do find them, they're always expensive :(

[GRU]

This was very educational for me to see the ingredients of the Suave product. So many people using it and finding it great here on LHC. But I must say, the ingredients seem contraproductive for the whole concept of the CO-method, which is to avoid cones and the harsher removals of them.

Just wanted to point out that this ingredient list is not indicative of all Suave products, in case someone reading it would misinterpret that to be the case. The Suave Naturals line of conditioners that I've looked at have all been cone-free, while the Suave Professionals line of products (which includes the conditioner in this particular post) have all been chock full of cones.

[brave]

This conditioner looks lovely - might give it a try :) I find it so hard to find shampoos and conditioners with as few harsh chemicals/fragrances/preservatives in the ingredients (I'm using Green People unscented conditioner (http://www.greenpeople.co.uk/organic-base-no-scent-conditioner-200ml.aspx) at the moment). When I do find them, they're always expensive :(

It was around 11$, but the bottle is huge. I wish it smelled more strongly of lavender though!

[caadam]

It was around 11$, but the bottle is huge. I wish it smelled more strongly of lavender though!

Where can one find this brand anyway? I've actually never seen it before! :o

[brave]

Where can one find this brand anyway? I've actually never seen it before! :o

I found it in the health section of a grocery store, and I've seen it in other co-ops and health food stores I think. Go to the fancy organic conditioner shelf, and look for the biggest bottles, hah.

[caadam]

Well, I just got back from doing some grocery shopping and I got a bottle of Suave Naturals. I haven't used it in a while, but it's cone-free, so I'm going to see how it turns out.

I'll be going to Central Market later, which is a pretty fancy all-natural/organic grocery store, and they may very well have Everyday Shea. I'll keep my eye out for it. :)

[BlackbirdFly]

Hi Patrycja, I share your pain of expensive shampoo bars. I just wanted to share with everyone (who hasn't already discovered this) that etsy.com has many shops with excellent, inexpensive shampoo bars. I'm using Nature's Muse Rosemary Mint bar ($4.50) and I LOVE it.

[NoRush]

Hello ladies (and gentlemen) I'm having a bit of trouble, so I thought I'd ask the experts first, before I pill out my hair :rolleyes:

So, I CO-washed my hair for the 3rd time today, with largely the same results as the two previous tiems...:justy: And here is my problem: when wet it all feels as it should (as it normally does when I shampoo and condition) then it dries and.... The most frustrating thing ever! My scalp and roots are fine and dandy, clean, soft and shiny... and my lengths are matted, stringy and sticky :justy:

First time it happened I figured I had to be doing something wrong because my roots were also kinda greasy , it happens when you try something new, no problem. So I tried again, went back to the instructions here on LHC, the scalp and hair on my crown area nice, clean and soft everything from ear level down stringy and greasy, so try again. Come the third attempt all of my scalp and roots (save for a small patch on the back of my head) is nice and clean and my ends are so sticky I can't french braid because the ends stick together and snag.:horse:
So here is what I do and use:
Cone free conditioner.
Take a good amount slightly diluted (just a few drops o fwater to make it a bit runnier) in an old dye bottle (the ones with the narrow nozzle) and apply generously to the whole scalp until slick, then massage well put it up in a showercap for a few minutes and then rinse well (I rinsed until my hair felt squeaky)and then applied a bit of conditioner to the ends, rinsed well again.:suspect:

I tried both coating the lenghts as well and not, but the result didn't change.
I did use a different conditioner before the final rinse, a cone free as well, could that be a problem??

Do you have any idea as to what might be the problem?:shrug:

[afu]

Hello ladies (and gentlemen) I'm having a bit of trouble, so I thought I'd ask the experts first, before I pill out my hair :rolleyes:

So, I CO-washed my hair for the 3rd time today, with largely the same results as the two previous tiems...:justy: And here is my problem: when wet it all feels as it should (as it normally does when I shampoo and condition) then it dries and.... The most frustrating thing ever! My scalp and roots are fine and dandy, clean, soft and shiny... and my lengths are matted, stringy and sticky :justy:

First time it happened I figured I had to be doing something wrong because my roots were also kinda greasy , it happens when you try something new, no problem. So I tried again, went back to the instructions here on LHC, the scalp and hair on my crown area nice, clean and soft everything from ear level down stringy and greasy, so try again. Come the third attempt all of my scalp and roots (save for a small patch on the back of my head) is nice and clean and my ends are so sticky I can't french braid because the ends stick together and snag.:horse:
So here is what I do and use:
Cone free conditioner.
Take a good amount slightly diluted (just a few drops o fwater to make it a bit runnier) in an old dye bottle (the ones with the narrow nozzle) and apply generously to the whole scalp until slick, then massage well put it up in a showercap for a few minutes and then rinse well (I rinsed until my hair felt squeaky)and then applied a bit of conditioner to the ends, rinsed well again.:suspect:

I tried both coating the lenghts as well and not, but the result didn't change.
I did use a different conditioner before the final rinse, a cone free as well, could that be a problem??

Do you have any idea as to what might be the problem?:shrug:

My hair gets like this if it gets too much protein (for me that means pretty much any protein at all!) - does your conditioner contain protein? and have you checked your hair's moisture : protein balance lately using the stretchy strand test?

[Tisiloves]

Do you have any idea as to what might be the problem?:shrug:


Are you always cone free? I find I need cones to even fingercomb my hair.

ETA: Finger combing the conditioner through your length is also a great idea.

[NoRush]

My hair gets like this if it gets too much protein (for me that means pretty much any protein at all!) - does your conditioner contain protein? and have you checked your hair's moisture : protein balance lately using the stretchy strand test?

:hmm: I have no idea, more than tangly my hair is sticky/waxy and I don't know what sort of ingredients to look for for protein?:bigeyes:


Are you always cone free? I find I need cones to even fingercomb my hair.

Yep, I've been mostly cone free for about six now (sometimes I use a shampoo that has a few cones but not often and I don't notice a big difference when I stop using it) but I've never had a problem.

[Tisiloves]

:hmm: I have no idea, more than tangly my hair is sticky/waxy and I don't know what sort of ingredients to look for for protein?:bigeyes:


Usually it'll straight out say like hydrolised silk protein, but also anything with keratin or -amine-.

I'd also check the conditioner for anything like lanolin or beeswax, it sounds like you have a heavy, sticky ingredient in there.

[NoRush]

Usually it'll straight out say like hydrolised silk protein, but also anything with keratin or -amine-.

I'd also check the conditioner for anything like lanolin or beeswax, it sounds like you have a heavy, sticky ingredient in there.

No protein, or wax :shrug: in either shampoo, they're both just a healthy mix of natural oils, both "green" products, perhaps they're just too much to be used on their own, I think I'll give it another shot and if it doesn't work maybe I could try with a more "chemical" conditioner :hmm:

Thankyou!!!

[Tisiloves]

No protein, or wax :shrug: in either shampoo, they're both just a healthy mix of natural oils, both "green" products, perhaps they're just too much to be used on their own, I think I'll give it another shot and if it doesn't work maybe I could try with a more "chemical" conditioner :hmm:

You could try diluting them by half like afu does with her CO conditioner.

[Dovetail]

Huh...I know it sounds silly, but are you rinsing the length thoroughly after rinsing the scalp? :/ I know it's something obvious but it's something I forget to do quite often.

[NoRush]

Huh...I know it sounds silly, but are you rinsing the length thoroughly after rinsing the scalp? :/ I know it's something obvious but it's something I forget to do quite often.

At this point I'm not ruling anything out:thud:, wich is why I'll try again, I gave pretty much the same attention to the lengths as I did the scalp but :shrug: who knows!

And Tisiloves, I'll try that as well, it can't hurt :D

[caadam]

I went on my second grocery trip and found Everyday Shea! :D They had a few options, and decided to get the vanilla mint scent. It smells kind of like Wrigley's spearmint gum, but I like it. lol

32 ounces (590 ml, I think) for twelve bucks. A pretty good deal for what it is!

[brave]

Yay! I hope it works out well for you. If not... well, it makes a good lotion too!

[Cafe au Lait]

I think, after so much experimentation, I have finally found my ideal CO wash conditioner. *cross fingers* It is Tresemme Naturals Nourishing Moisture Conditioner. So far, so good. No cones, and no protein that I can see.

[battles]

I think, after so much experimentation, I have finally found my ideal CO wash conditioner. *cross fingers* It is Tresemme Naturals Nourishing Moisture Conditioner. So far, so good. No cones, and no protein that I can see.

I'm using the same one! It works so well.

[mduggan]

I have been CO-only for about a month and LOVE it. I have had major success with VO5 over Suave. :disco:

Last week I tried a coconut oil treatment.....which left my hair soft but greasy, needing four CO washes to finally get rid of the grease. :eek:

Any suggestions as to what to try the next time I do a Coconut treatment?

Also, I have tried Coconut oil on my ends, but they wick right up, and within the day my scalp is greasy. :confused:

thanks, all!

[caadam]

So I tried out Everyday Shea. What I did was wash my scalp with my Suave Naturals condish (Everlasting Sunshine. Smells amazing), and then put the shea condish on my length.

My hair is seriously in love with Everyday Shea. I put it on and my hair soaked it up IMMEDIATELY. lol I only used a little, maybe a half dollar sized amount. It didn't seem like much because my hair was practically drinking it like some elixir of life, but my hair is still drying, and it feels incredibly soft. :) Yaaaaay, haha.

[caadam]

I have been CO-only for about a month and LOVE it. I have had major success with VO5 over Suave. :disco:

Last week I tried a coconut oil treatment.....which left my hair soft but greasy, needing four CO washes to finally get rid of the grease. :eek:

Any suggestions as to what to try the next time I do a Coconut treatment?

Also, I have tried Coconut oil on my ends, but they wick right up, and within the day my scalp is greasy. :confused:

thanks, all!

When you do an oil treatment, how long do you leave the conditioner on for? It's best to leave on the condish for a while. I usually will slather on condish after an oil treatment and let it do its job for 45 min-1 hour. This gets everything off perfectly, and my hair will feel very soft. :D

[mduggan]

When you do an oil treatment, how long do you leave the conditioner on for? It's best to leave on the condish for a while. I usually will slather on condish after an oil treatment and let it do its job for 45 min-1 hour. This gets everything off perfectly, and my hair will feel very soft. :D

caadam,

I left the condish on for about 30 minutes, I believe... Next time I will leave it on longer - thanks. :)

How often should I do a coconut treatment?

[caadam]

caadam,

I left the condish on for about 30 minutes, I believe... Next time I will leave it on longer - thanks. :)

How often should I do a coconut treatment?

That's really going to depend on you. For me, I'll do an oil treatment once a week, or when my scalp needs some extra TLC. I think the best way to figure out if your hair needs help with moisture is to clarify. This way you can see the real condition of your hair without any residue from conditioner or other oils coating it (because residue will sometimes make hair feel dry, but it very well might not be; it just needs to be clarified). If your hair feels especially dry after being clarified, it might be a good time to slather on some coconut oil and do a treatment! :D

[cmg]

When you do an oil treatment, how long do you leave the conditioner on for? It's best to leave on the condish for a while. I usually will slather on condish after an oil treatment and let it do its job for 45 min-1 hour. This gets everything off perfectly, and my hair will feel very soft. :D
Ouch, that sounds like a long time. Isnt the oil gone completely then, and you are just feeling the condish effect?

If I get any oily spots somewhere after my normal CO-wash (it usually removes any excess oils), I put abit oat meal (or soy, chick peas etc) on the spot and simply brush it away.

/ CMG

[caadam]

Ouch, that sounds like a long time. Isnt the oil gone completely then, and you are just feeling the condish effect?

If I get any oily spots somewhere after my normal CO-wash (it usually removes any excess oils), I put abit oat meal (or soy, chick peas etc) on the spot and simply brush it away.

/ CMG

I thought so, too, but I don't get the same effect if I just do a regular conditioner treatment without an oil treatment beforehand. So it's definitely the oil. ;)

And it's really not a long time, at least it's not excessive for some people. I guess it's just another preference.

[Cafe au Lait]

I'm using the same one! It works so well.

My hair lurves it. I finally found my conditioner! *sob*

[louzen]

So I tried out Everyday Shea. What I did was wash my scalp with my Suave Naturals condish (Everlasting Sunshine. Smells amazing), and then put the shea condish on my length.

My hair is seriously in love with Everyday Shea. I put it on and my hair soaked it up IMMEDIATELY. lol I only used a little, maybe a half dollar sized amount. It didn't seem like much because my hair was practically drinking it like some elixir of life, but my hair is still drying, and it feels incredibly soft. :) Yaaaaay, haha.

Thanks for the review caadam. I was about to lament about how it's not available in the UK, but did a quick search and found a site in the UK who sells it (and ebay UK sell it too woohoo) :disco:

ETA: Do you plan to use it on your scalp also?

[louzen]

Hello ladies (and gentlemen) I'm having a bit of trouble, so I thought I'd ask the experts first, before I pill out my hair :rolleyes:

So, I CO-washed my hair for the 3rd time today, with largely the same results as the two previous tiems...:justy: And here is my problem: when wet it all feels as it should (as it normally does when I shampoo and condition) then it dries and.... The most frustrating thing ever! My scalp and roots are fine and dandy, clean, soft and shiny... and my lengths are matted, stringy and sticky :justy:

First time it happened I figured I had to be doing something wrong because my roots were also kinda greasy , it happens when you try something new, no problem. So I tried again, went back to the instructions here on LHC, the scalp and hair on my crown area nice, clean and soft everything from ear level down stringy and greasy, so try again. Come the third attempt all of my scalp and roots (save for a small patch on the back of my head) is nice and clean and my ends are so sticky I can't french braid because the ends stick together and snag.:horse:
So here is what I do and use:
Cone free conditioner.
Take a good amount slightly diluted (just a few drops o fwater to make it a bit runnier) in an old dye bottle (the ones with the narrow nozzle) and apply generously to the whole scalp until slick, then massage well put it up in a showercap for a few minutes and then rinse well (I rinsed until my hair felt squeaky)and then applied a bit of conditioner to the ends, rinsed well again.:suspect:

I tried both coating the lenghts as well and not, but the result didn't change.
I did use a different conditioner before the final rinse, a cone free as well, could that be a problem??

Do you have any idea as to what might be the problem?:shrug:

Sounds like you might need to clarify the length. Sometimes this happens to me, and I clarify the length with my clarifying shampoo. After clarifying, the CO wash seems to work fine again on the ends. Keep us updated! Good luck :)

[mduggan]

I thought so, too, but I don't get the same effect if I just do a regular conditioner treatment without an oil treatment beforehand. So it's definitely the oil. ;)

And it's really not a long time, at least it's not excessive for some people. I guess it's just another preference.

Can someone share the instructions for clarifying? Is this using vinegar?

thanks!

[caadam]

Can someone share the instructions for clarifying? Is this using vinegar?

thanks!

Here's an article on clarifying: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=224

Hope that helps you out. :flower:

[firegypsy]

I used the TJ's TTT today. Not to CO....I clarified with neutrogena shampoo and then used it as the conditioner. So far, it's awesome. I love it. But my hair tends to be compliant initially and then throw a hissy fit, so we'll see if it continues to be awesome. Right now though, I'm VERY happy.

Last time I clarified I used V05 after and it did not feel anywhere near this good....so I have high hopes!

[annah]

An odd observation. The last time I used Nexxus Hydrasleek, my hair went totally sleek, and um, limp I guess you'd say. (An amazing feat, getting my wild hair limp). It actually looked really nice, and felt soft and sleek.

Granted, I'm trying to learn to keep the curls that I have, but it is nice to be able to comb my hair and not have the crazy frizz.

Does anyone know if there's some ingredient in there that makes that happen, or is it just the fact that there's cones in there, and I don't normally use cones?

[mduggan]

Success!:disco:

I just clarified using baking soda, followed by a white vinegar/water rinse (already had this on hand). I finished with V05's extra body volumizing conditioner.

My hair dried more quickly (always a bonus) and is soft and FULL of volume.

It looks great! And I didn't need as much condish :D This is how I remember my hair feeling when I was a kid... and running from my mother who was always trying to give me a pixie cut.....:luke:

I believe I am getting the hang of this ;)

[caadam]

ETA: Do you plan to use it on your scalp also?

Well, my major concern was having something for the length of my hair. My scalp does well with almost any conditioner, and the Suave Naturals condish works well enough. It's just that the length tends to need a bit more attention, so I got the shea conditioner.

[Dovetail]

Im kind of curious what you all do before you go swiming, if you do. My sister-in-law was on a swim team (and has VERY curly hair) and she would coat with conditioner, then braid. She'd rinse it once she got out and it wouldn't "feel" damaged (so she says) What do you all think?

I have pretty fine hair, and I don't think it could take oil on the scalp (though I thought it couldn't take conditioner there either!) I'm using sulfate/cone free v05 right now.

[annah]

We've been swimming alot lately (joined the Y a few months ago) and I've been slathering on the conditioner before we go. After I get back, I rinse it out really well, and it feels fine so far. Not sure what the long term effects might be, but so far, no issues.

[RitaPG]

I started Surf lessons recently and I've found that CO washing isn't enough to keep my hair soft and moisturized :(
I've been thinking of leaving conditioner on my hair before braiding, maybe add a bit of my regular sunscreen to it to protect my hair from sun bleaching.

I've been advised to use oil on my hair before going in the water, but I don't think it's such a good idea. In here, it's common for people to use coconut oil on their bodies to increase their tan, they get sunburn every time. Somehow I don't think oiling my hair prior to staying under the sun for hours would work well for it :run:

[caadam]

I started Surf lessons recently and I've found that CO washing isn't enough to keep my hair soft and moisturized :(
I've been thinking of leaving conditioner on my hair before braiding, maybe add a bit of my regular sunscreen to it to protect my hair from sun bleaching.

I've been advised to use oil on my hair before going in the water, but I don't think it's such a good idea. In here, it's common for people to use coconut oil on their bodies to increase their tan, they get sunburn every time. Somehow I don't think oiling my hair prior to staying under the sun for hours would work well for it :run:

I've read in the past that a good "sunscreen" oil for hair is sesame oil. Like, SPF 30, I believe. Coconut oil is also a natural sunscreen, but is not as strong.

I've used it before on the ends of my hair during one very sunny day and it left my ends very soft and happy. :D

[RitaPG]

Sesame oil? That's interesting. SPF 30 is a lot, you have any idea where you found out about it? I'd love to know more about it.

[caadam]

Sesame oil? That's interesting. SPF 30 is a lot, you have any idea where you found out about it? I'd love to know more about it.

http://www.naturalnutritionadvisor.com/blog/?p=981

This also talks about a good number of other oils that have been proven to protect against UV rays.

[cmg]

http://www.naturalnutritionadvisor.com/blog/?p=981

:bigeyes: What a boatload of :bs:
The conclusions there are really scary.

/ CMG

[caadam]

:bigeyes: What a boatload of :bs:
The conclusions there are really scary.

/ CMG

I appreciate your opinion, but can you explain? I'm sure everyone would like to know why, especially me. lol

[Dovetail]

I've had several friends, myself included use virgin coconut oil as a sun protectant (not a sun SCREEN persay) it helped us tan, but we never got burnt. And I burn FAST with nothing on. I'm not sure of its qualities for hair protection though. I don't think it would protect you from uva or UVB rays or cancer causing damage and so on.

Eta: I only glossed over that article btw so I'm not making any statements about it, just intrested in what everyone thinks <3

[RitaPG]

I've had several friends, myself included use virgin coconut oil as a sun protectant (not a sun SCREEN persay) it helped us tan, but we never got burnt. And I burn FAST with nothing on. I'm not sure of its qualities for hair protection though. I don't think it would protect you formula or UVB rays or cancer causing damage and so on.

I guess if you're cautious enough you don't get sunburned. Where I'm from people still think that having super tanned leather skin is pretty and our beaches are full in the most dangerous hours of the day.
But then again, we're not famous for being smart :p

I'm not sure coconut, or any other oil, would give me enough protection, and if it did, it'd just feel weird, I'm not into the oiled look. I think I'll stick with my original idea of mixing leave-in + regular sunscreen. If it works on my skin, it should work for my hair. Pretty sure it'll give me some crazy buildup, we'll see, but that can be washed off ^^

[Dovetail]

Do let me know how it goes!

Also, has anyone here had their scalp get all ticked off when wearing hair up?
I just got my first hair fork, so the past couple of days I've been wearing my hair up (aka yesterday and today). Now, I've worn my hair up before in cinnabuns held by bobby pins, and in sock buns ect held by elastics and bobby pins. I've noticed a sore spot on my scalp when I wore an infinity bun but it didn't feel tight. Now today I've had it in a lazy wrap bun and it's still sore in that same spot. I don't think the fork is actually touching my scalp there, maybe it's because I've had my hair up for a longer amount of time since its holding better?
Anyhow, Im really wondering what I can do to soothe it until it gets used to being up.

[arjay.d]

So. I have been doing CO for about two weeks now, and I never seem to get the C. all the way out of my hair. It feels like it's gone, but it keeps lathering under the water. When I get out, my hair is still separated. Is there a way that I can tell and is there a faster way to get it out? Just wondering. Thanks.

[anitacs9101]

I CO'd for the first time today and my hair dried feeling lovely and soft! Although lovely and soft sometimes means greasy and oily the next day lol so I'll see how long I can go. Usually I can go a little under a week before having to wash again. What conditioners are you supposed to use with this method? Less oily ones? I used suave humectant moisture

[caadam]

I CO'd for the first time today and my hair dried feeling lovely and soft! Although lovely and soft sometimes means greasy and oily the next day lol so I'll see how long I can go. Usually I can go a little under a week before having to wash again. What conditioners are you supposed to use with this method? Less oily ones? I used suave humectant moisture

You use whatever conditioner that works best for your hair. You'll find that people use many different kinds of conditioners, but the most common are usually Suave, VO5, and White Rain. Those conditioners tend to be lighter, but Suave is usually the heaviest of the three.

You'll also see some people use Pantene conditioners, which is another heavy conditioner, and it has cones in it. People use Aubrey Organics, Trader Joe's, and other brands. I use Suave and Everyday Shea. I'm really loving the latter conditioner for my length and ends. :) It's a heavy conditioner, has no cones, no parabens, none of the cleansers that are in conventional conditioners. It's just pure goodness, and smells delicious. :D

If I were you, I'd keep a very simple shampoo around for clarifying. If I'm correct, the conditioner you're using might cause some buildup in the future, and you will need some way to get rid of it. If you don't want to use a basic clarifying shampoo to do this, you can also use a diluted BS rinse, and chase it with a diluted vinegar rinse (always important to chase BS with vinegar to close the hair's cuticle).

I found that the best way to clarify with a shampoo is to dilute it in water and pour it on the hair. This way, you're not using more product than you need to, and you're still removing any residue from conditioner. This also goes for any hair products with added ingredients, such as emollients and botanicals. Unless there is some kind of clarifying agent as the main ingredient, most products will build up over time.

[Cafe au Lait]

I'm still trying to find Everyday Shea in a store, no luck for me so far..

[caadam]

I'm still trying to find Everyday Shea in a store, no luck for me so far..

If you have a fancy natural grocery store near by, you can always talk to management and request they stock it. They usually comply; they want your money after all. ;) lol

I've also seen the conditioners for about ten dollars on Amazon... before shipping and tax. Boo.

[afu]

I'm still trying to find Everyday Shea in a store, no luck for me so far..

I've heard some LHC'ers say that Everyday Shea is often seperate from the main conditioners and instead it is in the ethnic hair section so might be worth a look . P.s. I'm not from America so have no personal experience, this is just what i've heard

[GRU]

I'm still trying to find Everyday Shea in a store, no luck for me so far..

Go to their website: http://www.everydayshea.com/

Then input your ZIP code in the box in the upper right corner.

Otherwise, you can order online from their website.

[Cafe au Lait]

Go to their website: http://www.everydayshea.com/

Then input your ZIP code in the box in the upper right corner.

Otherwise, you can order online from their website.

THANK YOU! There is only one place in town that sells it, but they're only 3 miles from me. Perfect.

[Dovetail]

Geeze! I checked just for kicks and my nearest one is *60* MILES away! I guess I wont be trying that one :p

[GRU]

THANK YOU! There is only one place in town that sells it, but they're only 3 miles from me. Perfect.

You're very welcome! I'm so glad it worked out for you! :cheer:


Geeze! I checked just for kicks and my nearest one is *60* MILES away! I guess I wont be trying that one :p

Yeah, but they sell online, too.... :eyebrows:

[caadam]

And as I said on the last page, you can always request your local natural grocery store to carry it. Don't be afraid to talk to management about it. :D

[Dovetail]

The Enablinator! is at it again! :3 we honestly dont have a health food store in my town, its rather pathetic really. But i'm not opposed to buying online!

Also, have any of you had a transition with your scalp going from sulphates and cones to both sulphate and cone free? my hair isn't really... greasy but it is pretty oilly after a day or two whereas before I could go 4-5 days. and its also a bit itchy-ish after a few days too.

I'm just kind of wondering. I'm going to try a different method of putting Conditioner on my ends and then working it up to my roots rather than the other way around to see if it helps.

[GRU]

The Enablinator! is at it again! :3 we honestly dont have a health food store in my town, its rather pathetic really. But i'm not opposed to buying online!

Well, I have a reputation to uphold around here, ya know! ;)


Also, have any of you had a transition with your scalp going from sulphates and cones to both sulphate and cone free? my hair isn't really... greasy but it is pretty oilly after a day or two whereas before I could go 4-5 days. and its also a bit itchy-ish after a few days too.

I'm just kind of wondering. I'm going to try a different method of putting Conditioner on my ends and then working it up to my roots rather than the other way around to see if it helps.

Have you tried the "dilute and apply with an applicator bottle" method yet?

If your scalp is oily and/or itchy, it sounds like you need to do a better job of rubbing the conditioner in. For me, that entails watering down the conditioner so it "spreads" more easily (also SIGNIFICANTLY cuts down on quantity used!) and putting it directly onto my scalp with the tip of the bottle. (This (http://www.sallybeauty.com/Color-Applicator-Bottle/SBS-265100,default,pd.html) is the bottle I use, but you can use anything -- even a squeeze ketchup condiment bottle!)

I put 1-2 ounces of conditioner in the bottle, then add 4-6 ounces of water from the shower (if I mix it ahead of time, it's COLD when I put it on my head!), put the lid back on, put my finger over the hole on the end, and shake it up. After wetting my hair thoroughly, I apply the condish directly to my scalp in several areas, kind of like if I were injecting marinade into a turkey -- point and squeeze, move to another area, point and squeeze, etc.

When my scalp is adequately covered, then I massage it in everywhere, making sure to leave no follicle undisturbed (I'm prone to seborrheic dermatitis if I don't do a super-duper job of scrubbing). When that's done, I go ahead and work the rest of the condish into my length, adding more (undiluted) if needed for adequate coverage.

It seems counter-intuitive to water down the condish to get better washing, but I'd guess that 90+% of the people here who have tried it have had good results with this (plus saved oodles of money on condish... more money for buying hair toys! :eyebrows:).

[robanna]

Does the co method work for people with straight/wavy hair? It seems like a lot of people who use this method have curly hair

[brave]

Luxepiggy has stick-straight hair and CO works wonderfully for her. Some people have better luck than others with it but yes, straighties can use it too!

[caadam]

Does the co method work for people with straight/wavy hair? It seems like a lot of people who use this method have curly hair

My hair isn't curly, and will sometimes become straight if I use my BBB often. :p

[Tisiloves]

It works fantastically for me (and I'm about as far from curly as you can get).

[meishkamooshka]

Would it be considered excessive or damaging to CO every day or every other day? I'm just wondering because my main mode of cardio lately has been swimming, and I hate the idea of not washing my hair afterwards. ^.^

I'm new to CO wash, by the way, so hi everyone! :D Just recently discovered I am a wavy, so I experimented with the CO method & scrunching and this is what I got:



http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u487/MeishkaMooshka/P1140999.jpg

[cmg]

Also, have any of you had a transition with your scalp going from sulphates and cones to both sulphate and cone free?
I did. I'm one of the lucky ones I guess. I didn't experience anything like a transitioning period from this. I just went on with it and my hair and scalp loves it. I think my sebum production has slowed down a bit, but this might be an age-related thing that came gradually anyways (this was very bad for me as a child and teenager). :)


Would it be considered excessive or damaging to CO every day or every other day?
Not as such. Chances are the ingredients are probably worse with shampoos. A lot of people do CO-wash every or every other day. So welcome to join the CO:ers :-)

/ CMG

[meishkamooshka]

Not as such. Chances are the ingredients are probably worse with shampoos. A lot of people do CO-wash every or every other day. So welcome to join the CO:ers :-)

/ CMG


Thank you so much! I appreciate the expedient response, too! ^_^

[Tisiloves]

Would it be considered excessive or damaging to CO every day or every other day? I'm just wondering because my main mode of cardio lately has been swimming, and I hate the idea of not washing my hair afterwards. ^.^





I don't think it would be excessive, but when you do swim I would advise a very heavy oiling, with a heavy hard to shift oil (I like coconut) and wetting your hair thoroughly beforehand). Also, you might want to look into a swim cap, I find it helps massively and they even do ones for long hairs (if you do get one remember to baby powder).

[cmg]

Oh right - that was two minutes! There you have the benefits of LHC :D

[meishkamooshka]

I don't think it would be excessive, but when you do swim I would advise a very heavy oiling, with a heavy hard to shift oil (I like coconut) and wetting your hair thoroughly beforehand). Also, you might want to look into a swim cap, I find it helps massively and they even do ones for long hairs (if you do get one remember to baby powder).

Thank you for the recommendation! I have a swim cap around here somewhere, I just haven't been able to find it. I'll try wetting, oiling, and braiding it until I can find my swim cap. Thank you! I bet baby powder helps tremendously...I used to hate using my swim cap because it pulled my hair.

[meishkamooshka]

Oh right - that was two minutes! There you have the benefits of LHC :D

Hahaha! So very true...always someone knowledgeable and helpful here!

[Tisiloves]

Thank you for the recommendation! I have a swim cap around here somewhere, I just haven't been able to find it. I'll try wetting, oiling, and braiding it until I can find my swim cap. Thank you! I bet baby powder helps tremendously...I used to hate using my swim cap because it pulled my hair.

Yeah, not so much now because I swim with my step one conditioner under my swim cap (most effecient swimming/washing technique ever), but I used to really know if I'd forgotten to re-baby powder when I put my cap on:(

[meishkamooshka]

Yeah, not so much now because I swim with my step one conditioner under my swim cap (most effecient swimming/washing technique ever), but I used to really know if I'd forgotten to re-baby powder when I put my cap on:(

That's a good idea, too! Yah, yikes! It's one sensation I'd like to avoid if I can, haha.

[leylusha]

Last night before going to bed with my hair down I CO'd consciously for the first time. My hair today feels weird... not damaged or technically bad, per se, but unusual. When I run my hands through it, especially near the scalp, I get a lot of resistance and eventually my hand is stopped by tangles. Not big ones, mind you, but lots of individual pairs/trios of hairs that seem to form a wall. I googled some of the ingredients in my condish, which, although I didn't read the label carefully yet, SEEMS to be 'cone-free, I stumbled upon this (http://community.babycenter.com/post/a650595/good_vs._bad_alcohol_in_hair_products.):


Fatty alcohols
This group includes Lauryl alcohol, Cetyl alcohol, Myristyl alcohol, Stearyl alcohol, Cetearyl alcohol and Behenyl alcohol.
[...] often used as an emollient in skin and haircare products. They give a smooth, soft feeling to the hair shaft by helping the cuticle to lie flat on the surface of the hair. However, if used in excess, fatty alcohols can combine with the natural sebum found on the scalp and form a sticky substance that makes the hair look greasy.

Seems to be exactly what happened. Anyone else have experienced with this issue?

[afu]

Last night before going to bed with my hair down I CO'd consciously for the first time. My hair today feels weird... not damaged or technically bad, per se, but unusual. When I run my hands through it, especially near the scalp, I get a lot of resistance and eventually my hand is stopped by tangles. Not big ones, mind you, but lots of individual pairs/trios of hairs that seem to form a wall. I googled some of the ingredients in my condish, which, although I didn't read the label carefully yet, SEEMS to be 'cone-free, I stumbled upon this (http://community.babycenter.com/post/a650595/good_vs._bad_alcohol_in_hair_products.):

Seems to be exactly what happened. Anyone else have experienced with this issue?

All of the CO conditioners I've used have contained this group (if i remember correctly) and I've not had a problem, they are extremely common. Have you ruled out the possibility of not rinsing enough? It might help if you dilute your conditioner.

The only time my hair tends to get 'clumpy tangly' is when it needs protein (which is very rare) - have you checked your hair moisture: protein balance recently using a stretch strand test?

[earthnut]

I've decided to try CO (again). The last time I tried, I ended up doing it modified, using small amounts of baby shampoo and a coney conditioner. That worked for years, but recently my frizz has gotten more stubborn, and I've just gotten sick of it.

This time I'm trying to go as natural as possible, no sulfates or cones at all. I have the CG handbook, and I've also done a lot of research online. I have done a protein treatment and a couple coconut oil deep treatments, and my hair is already greatly improved! Much less frizz, and I can see some 3a ringlets peeking through, though my hair still has a ways to go before being fully moisturized.

I used this homemade protein treatment: http://scienceyhairblog.blogspot.com/p/recipes-and-projects.html

I spent my entire childhood using mostly shampoo, very little conditioner, and I'm not sure I even know that my curl potential is. I always assumed I was wavy, but I might really be curly. :cool: My hair has always been natural, but I'm starting to see that harsh shampoos can be very damaging too, even if one has never had a chemical treatment.

[Neecola]

I used this homemade protein treatment: http://scienceyhairblog.blogspot.com/p/recipes-and-projects.html


Neat blog~ thanks for the link, earthnut!

[cmg]

Seems to be exactly what happened. Anyone else have experienced with this issue?
The feeling of resistance etc, couldnt that just be the condition of your natural hair without the coatings from cones and such? I had that sensation at the beginning. After switching the (leave-in) condish to a thicker one and adding more oils and sour rinses it felt smoother again.

/ CMG

[earthnut]

Neat blog~ thanks for the link, earthnut!

Glad you liked it! A lot of good info there! :thumbsup:

This is another great blog: http://livecurlylivefree.blogspot.com/
And this one: http://www.curlynikki.com/ :bounce:

[brave]

Glad you liked it! A lot of good info there! :thumbsup:

This is another great blog: http://livecurlylivefree.blogspot.com/
And this one: http://www.curlynikki.com/ :bounce:

Has anyone done the hair analysis from livecurlylivefree? I found that pretty interesting but I'm not sure I want to throw 20$ that way.

[moltabella]

Can CO everyday be harmful?

I've been conditioning everyday and deep conditioning once or twice a week and i am still noticing white spots and splits popping up.... I also use macadamia nut oil for styling/fighting frizz.

I CWC maybe once a week, so I know i'm not full CO, but it's what I do most of the week.

Could conditioning everyday be harmful for my hair?

[caadam]

Can CO everyday be harmful?

I've been conditioning everyday and deep conditioning once or twice a week and i am still noticing white spots and splits popping up.... I also use macadamia nut oil for styling/fighting frizz.

I CWC maybe once a week, so I know i'm not full CO, but it's what I do most of the week.

Could conditioning everyday be harmful for my hair?

I know some people on this forum who CO wash every day without a problem. I think it's going to depend on each person's hair, really.

White spots and splits are usually due to mechanical/heat damage, like brushing/combing hair too roughly, or using too much heat when styling. Are these things a factor in your hair routine?

[Vivalagina]

Could conditioning everyday be harmful for my hair?

It depends on your hair, I think. My hair tends to be dry, so it's hard to over-condition it. As long as I rinse really well, I can co-wash every day without any problems and clarify only when I feel like it needs it (maybe once a month or so).

I've heard that some people experience some breakage if they go to co-washing from silicone products. The silicone coats the hair and keeps broken pieces together longer because it has that seal (since silicone doesn't get absorbed by the hair). When they start co-washing the hair catches up with itself, and they think it's the conditioner causing the problem when it's really the previous product. That explanation makes sense to me.

[meishkamooshka]

I was just wondering if anyone used Coconut Oil as a condiitoner for CO? Either as the first, second, or a leave-in? I am currently not in possession of any cone-free conditioners and was wondering if this would work or not....

[Tisiloves]

I was just wondering if anyone used Coconut Oil as a condiitoner for CO? Either as the first, second, or a leave-in? I am currently not in possession of any cone-free conditioners and was wondering if this would work or not....

I use it as leave-in/ detangler. Not sure how well it'd work for washing though.

[brave]

I was just wondering if anyone used Coconut Oil as a condiitoner for CO? Either as the first, second, or a leave-in? I am currently not in possession of any cone-free conditioners and was wondering if this would work or not....

I used it once sort of as a WO-but-with-coconut-oil wash? Slathered it on my hair right before hopping in, scrubbed my scalp a bit and rinsed it out. It was actually very moisturized feeling -- one of the few things I've done that actually left me a little greasy (I probably overdid it). A lot of people on the indian hair care thread have tried it that way.

[meishkamooshka]

I use it as leave-in/ detangler. Not sure how well it'd work for washing though.

Yah...I was kinda thinking the same thing...

[earthnut]

I was just wondering if anyone used Coconut Oil as a condiitoner for CO? Either as the first, second, or a leave-in? I am currently not in possession of any cone-free conditioners and was wondering if this would work or not....

I use coconut oil as a deep conditioning treatment, and you could use it as a first conditioner. You could also use it as a leave-in. However, since it is not water soluble, too much will only build up in your hair and cause greasiness without some kind of surfactant. Conditioners have a mild cationic surfactant, usually Behentrimonium chloride or Cetrimonium chloride, which is a major component to how CO works. See a big list of ingredients and what they do here (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/ingredients-commonly-found-in-hair-care-products).

Coconut oil can be used alone in a WO routine. However you have to be careful not to use too much, only as much as your hair can absorb, since it's not water-soluble.

[moltabella]

White spots and splits are usually due to mechanical/heat damage, like brushing/combing hair too roughly, or using too much heat when styling. Are these things a factor in your hair routine?

No, and that's why I'm confused. I stopped using heat about a month and a half ago, and I don't comb my hair (just gently finger comb when conditioning, only sometimes), and I sleep in a braid tucked into a satin hair cap.

The only thing I can think of that can possibly damage it is that I wear it down everyday. But it's not even at APL (almost there) so I don't have lots of options for protective styling.

I also use oil to style it and I make sure to put it on my ends.

So..... Idk why i have white spots and splits when I'm basically pampering my hair :confused:

I don't drench it in oil though, and apparently a lot of people do that?

[Tisiloves]

No, and that's why I'm confused. I stopped using heat about a month and a half ago, and I don't comb my hair (just gently finger comb when conditioning, only sometimes), and I sleep in a braid tucked into a satin hair cap.

The only thing I can think of that can possibly damage it is that I wear it down everyday. But it's not even at APL (almost there) so I don't have lots of options for protective styling.

I also use oil to style it and I make sure to put it on my ends.

So..... Idk why i have white spots and splits when I'm basically pampering my hair :confused:

I don't drench it in oil though, and apparently a lot of people do that?


How heavy was your heat usage before you quit? It can take a while after you've stopped for the damage to stop appearing (it's taken me nearly two years for perm and mechanical damage to stop showing up).

Putting your hair up might help as well why not have a look at Roscata's list of short hairstyles. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=2118178#post2118178)

[moltabella]

How heavy was your heat usage before you quit? It can take a while after you've stopped for the damage to stop appearing (it's taken me nearly two years for perm and mechanical damage to stop showing up).

Putting your hair up might help as well why not have a look at Roscata's list of short hairstyles. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=2118178#post2118178)

thank you for the link. ;)

my usage of heat wasn't heavy, but i did do some damage before giving it up completely. It's very possible that those areas are still hanging around and are just popping up. I know sometimes it's easy to disguise damage and I may just be seeing damage that was already there.

I guess I will continue doing what I'm doing and just S&D as much as I can.

[Neecola]

I was just wondering if anyone used Coconut Oil as a condiitoner for CO? Either as the first, second, or a leave-in? I am currently not in possession of any cone-free conditioners and was wondering if this would work or not....

I use it as a pretreatment before co-washing with good results. I try to put it on the night before but sometimes I put it on just before I hop in the shower and it still works well. Makes my hair soft and less frizzy.

[brave]

It depends on your hair, I think. My hair tends to be dry, so it's hard to over-condition it. As long as I rinse really well, I can co-wash every day without any problems and clarify only when I feel like it needs it (maybe once a month or so).

Here (http://thebeautybrains.com/2012/06/13/three-ways-conditioner-can-be-bad-for-hair/) is an article about conditioning every day, although I don't think it totally applies for CO. It does make the point that simply the act of getting your hair wet and dry again puts stress on the strands.

Currently I cowash every day because it's summer and I want to. Wet hair yes please. My hair also seems to dry out easily although I've been finding ways to help it.

A lot of people make a refreshing spray or something similar by mixing conditioner, water, and maybe a few other things (aloe, oil, glycerin) in a bottle and misting their hair, or just mixing it in their hands. I'm still perfecting this as a way of getting rid of second-day frizz.

[meishkamooshka]

I used it once sort of as a WO-but-with-coconut-oil wash? Slathered it on my hair right before hopping in, scrubbed my scalp a bit and rinsed it out. It was actually very moisturized feeling -- one of the few things I've done that actually left me a little greasy (I probably overdid it). A lot of people on the indian hair care thread have tried it that way.

Hmm...that's a thought...thanks for responding! :D


I use coconut oil as a deep conditioning treatment, and you could use it as a first conditioner. You could also use it as a leave-in. However, since it is not water soluble, too much will only build up in your hair and cause greasiness without some kind of surfactant. Conditioners have a mild cationic surfactant, usually Behentrimonium chloride or Cetrimonium chloride, which is a major component to how CO works. See a big list of ingredients and what they do here (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/ingredients-commonly-found-in-hair-care-products).

Coconut oil can be used alone in a WO routine. However you have to be careful not to use too much, only as much as your hair can absorb, since it's not water-soluble.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your reply and for the link!


I use it as a pretreatment before co-washing with good results. I try to put it on the night before but sometimes I put it on just before I hop in the shower and it still works well. Makes my hair soft and less frizzy.

I usually forget, too! Haha. I'll have to try it, too, and see what I get :D Thanks for your answer !

[Elithia]

I use it as a pretreatment before co-washing with good results. I try to put it on the night before but sometimes I put it on just before I hop in the shower and it still works well. Makes my hair soft and less frizzy.

Yeah I do that too - oil it before bed, braid it, and then rinse in the morning. The summer dry heat caught me before I realized it so I have been doing it every single day to catch up. I think possibly I'm keeping an eye on it right now, because my hair's elasticity is showing signs of maybe needing some protein -- but it's also still looking pathetically dry, so I'm still oiling for the time being. My hair has NEVER, in 6 years of CG, overconditioned. I live in the desert. :P

[Dragon Faery]

Does the co method work for people with straight/wavy hair? It seems like a lot of people who use this method have curly hair

The reason so many curlies CO wash is that we're more prone to dry hair. But this seems to work well for anyone who needs a lot of moisture, and there are plenty of straight-haired people who need more moisture. :)


Would it be considered excessive or damaging to CO every day or every other day? I'm just wondering because my main mode of cardio lately has been swimming, and I hate the idea of not washing my hair afterwards. ^.^

I'm new to CO wash, by the way, so hi everyone! :D Just recently discovered I am a wavy, so I experimented with the CO method & scrunching and this is what I got:



http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u487/MeishkaMooshka/P1140999.jpg

Hi! Welcome (belatedly!) Nice waves! :)
Your question's been answered, but I just wanted to agree that you can CO wash every day. It will certainly be less damagin/drying than a sulfate shampoo! What I do when I know I'll be washing my hair several days in a row is to heavily oil it at night in between, just to keep it from getting too dry from all the washing.


Can CO everyday be harmful?

I've been conditioning everyday and deep conditioning once or twice a week and i am still noticing white spots and splits popping up.... I also use macadamia nut oil for styling/fighting frizz.

I CWC maybe once a week, so I know i'm not full CO, but it's what I do most of the week.

Could conditioning everyday be harmful for my hair?


No, and that's why I'm confused. I stopped using heat about a month and a half ago, and I don't comb my hair (just gently finger comb when conditioning, only sometimes), and I sleep in a braid tucked into a satin hair cap.

The only thing I can think of that can possibly damage it is that I wear it down everyday. But it's not even at APL (almost there) so I don't have lots of options for protective styling.

I also use oil to style it and I make sure to put it on my ends.

So..... Idk why i have white spots and splits when I'm basically pampering my hair :confused:

I don't drench it in oil though, and apparently a lot of people do that?

I agree with what others said about it being mechanical damage rather than the conditioner.
Even when I treat my hair as nicely as I can, I still battle splits and white dots like you're experiencing. Some of it is just left over from past abuse (in my case, just rough handling, as I've never used heat). And some of it is from things that I don't realize are damaging at the time that I do them. Things like handling it too roughly in the shower, or getting too impatient with a knot whe fingercombing, or failing to oil my fingers before fingercombing, lying on a rough pillow or leaning my head against any hard/rough surface ... Things like that. Oh, and elastics, even the "ouchless" ones. spidermom had a great tip in another thread: take a bit of satin ribbon and wrap it, smooth side in, around the ends of a braid and put the elastic over that. All those things, plus sleeping on satin pillowcases and keeping my hair contained in any kind of wind, have made the biggest difference for me.
But I do still get splits. It's a constant battle, and I think some of us just have it worse than others. It does get easier to protect my hair the longer it gets. Once my bangs were long enough to fit in braids and buns, they split half as much, which meant they gained length twice as fast since I didn't have to keep S&D-ing them.

Good luck!

[cmg]

Currently I cowash every day because it's summer and I want to. Wet hair yes please. My hair also seems to dry out easily although I've been finding ways to help it.
Is it possible, you only moisturize your hair, but then not manage to seal it? Or not moisturizing it enough?


A lot of people make a refreshing spray or something similar by mixing conditioner, water, and maybe a few other things (aloe, oil, glycerin) in a bottle and misting their hair, or just mixing it in their hands. I'm still perfecting this as a way of getting rid of second-day frizz.
Keep up the good work! Moisturize your hair and then seal in the moisture (water) with something like an oil or butter etc (perhaps a little heavier on the ends if they seem to need it). One of the best ways to do this is to make up a spray with BOTH the moisture and the sealant in it. You will have to experiment what combinations or oils works for your hair. So just keep on trying.

/CMG

[brave]

Is it possible, you only moisturize your hair, but then not manage to seal it? Or not moisturizing it enough?


Keep up the good work! Moisturize your hair and then seal in the moisture (water) with something like an oil or butter etc (perhaps a little heavier on the ends if they seem to need it). One of the best ways to do this is to make up a spray with BOTH the moisture and the sealant in it. You will have to experiment what combinations or oils works for your hair. So just keep on trying.

/CMG

I think the sealing is an issue. Oils don't seem to do it for me but silicones do. As for the spray I finally found something workable. Conditioner + a coney curl cream + oil in water.

Yesterday I used AOHR for the second conditioner, no rinse, and used a coney curl cream over that. That actually let me wake up with almost over-moisturized curls which was a lovely change. I think if I keep it slightly lighter than that and either seal or use a very coney conditioner as a leave-in it might keep behaving.

[BambooBeauty]

Hi! I'm new here! :) I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with a problem I have. I stretch my shampoos out as long as I can and I co wash inbetween washes. Since I started doing that I've had atleast one painful pimple on my scalp at all times. Does anyone else have this problem? I used to wash my hair every other day but now I'm co washing. Does anyone have any advice on how I can stop getting scalp pimples? No one can see them but I know there are there and they do hurt. Also I do have acne and pretty oily hair but I think thats because my hair is used to being shamooed all the time Will an acv rinse help?... Thanks! :)

[earthnut]

Hi! I'm new here! :) I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with a problem I have. I stretch my shampoos out as long as I can and I co wash inbetween washes. Since I started doing that I've had atleast one painful pimple on my scalp at all times. Does anyone else have this problem? I used to wash my hair every other day but now I'm co washing. Does anyone have any advice on how I can stop getting scalp pimples? No one can see them but I know there are there and they do hurt. Also I do have acne and pretty oily hair but I think thats because my hair is used to being shamooed all the time Will an acv rinse help?... Thanks! :)

Yeah I'd try a vinegar rinse. That's what I use on my face as a mild exfoliant for pimples.

Also make sure you're really massaging your scalp well when you wash (with either poo or condish). The mechanical action is what really cleans your scalp.

Also, the oiliness of your scalp is likely to diminish in time as your scalp gets used to not having to compensate for the drying action of the shampoo and produce so much oil.

[louzen]

Hello! Just an update since my last post. So I've been CO washing for about a month now. The biggest benefit for me is that it has cured my dry scalp issues which I'm really pleased about. :) The pre-oiling overnight has been even more beneficial with CO. When I used to shampoo ater oiling, the dryness would just come straight back. Guess I'm just hyper-sensitive to detergents/soaps?

I have mixed it up a little bit sometimes, like using shampoo on the ends when they get too greasy after oiling, sometimes rinsing with 'vinegar only' mid week, and even using a non-SLS shampoo (think I did this once in the month)

I find my hair has so much more volume with CO. The only downside is that I'm still getting the greasies on day 2. I can stretch it 2 days, but it ain't pretty ;) I've never been able to stretch my washes long (3/4 days max with shampoo). Maybe this is a result of my overly oily scalp, or simply because the strands of my hair are ultra fine?

Anyway, I'm going to keep at it because my scalp is happy and if it feels good then that must be a good sign :) I hope that I can increase the washes to every 3 days. At the moment that's an impossibility but I hope one day I can.

[louzen]

Hi! I'm new here! :) I'm hoping someone will be able to help me with a problem I have. I stretch my shampoos out as long as I can and I co wash inbetween washes. Since I started doing that I've had atleast one painful pimple on my scalp at all times. Does anyone else have this problem? I used to wash my hair every other day but now I'm co washing. Does anyone have any advice on how I can stop getting scalp pimples? No one can see them but I know there are there and they do hurt. Also I do have acne and pretty oily hair but I think thats because my hair is used to being shamooed all the time Will an acv rinse help?... Thanks! :)

Welcome BambooBeauty :) I'm getting scalp pimples too - although I am properly scrubbing the conditioner into my scalp and rinsing well. My only theory at the moment is that my hair is getting greasier than normal while it's going through the 'transition' phase. I'll be interested to read the replies to your thread..

[Louise148]

I was getting scalp pimles too but as the weeks go by these seem to be reducing, in fact I only have one at the moment. I do wash my hair once a week with 'Keracare sulphate free detangling shampoo' (which i love) as I have very fine greasy hair and maybe this helps with the pimples. But I suspect it is more to do with my scalp slowly adjusting to mainly CO washing which i was not used to before.

I used to wash my hair everyday, can't imagine going back to that routine again.

[RachieBaby]

Ok so i've been CO for a week, i've been using V05 Revive me daily conditioner as my 'scrubby' conditioner and Doves intensive repair express treatment conditioner on my length and ends afterwards. My hair hasn't been getting overly oily but I still think I could do with a lighter conditioner than V05 for washing with so yesterday I bought Superdrug Naturals Tea Tree and Peppermint conditioner for 99p I'm hoping to have better results with this, anyone else on here used it for co?

So far i've been having lovely results, I'm hoping that i'll be able to reach waist with this method as hopefully it'll stop my ends from drying out as fast.

[Tisiloves]

Ok so i've been CO for a week, i've been using V05 Revive me daily conditioner as my 'scrubby' conditioner and Doves intensive repair express treatment conditioner on my length and ends afterwards. My hair hasn't been getting overly oily but I still think I could do with a lighter conditioner than V05 for washing with so yesterday I bought Superdrug Naturals Tea Tree and Peppermint conditioner for 99p I'm hoping to have better results with this, anyone else on here used it for co?

So far i've been having lovely results, I'm hoping that i'll be able to reach waist with this method as hopefully it'll stop my ends from drying out as fast.


If the Superdrug condish doesn't work for you try the Asda Smartprice (500ml 24p), it cleans better than their shampoo. Or you could try diluting, that might make it lighter.

[RachieBaby]

If the Superdrug condish doesn't work for you try the Asda Smartprice (500ml 24p), it cleans better than their shampoo. Or you could try diluting, that might make it lighter.

Ok thanks for the recommendation :)

[rcblinn]

I am new to LHC (but have been a lurker for several months!) and am very curious about the co-washing method as my hair is dry. I swim alot and would rather avoid using an anti-residue shampoo since these are very harsh; can I effectively wash out the chlorine just using a conditioner? Also, does anyone have any tips on a good cheapie conditioner that has worked well for oily hair? The roots of my hair get oily within 24 hours! Thanks! :)

[earthnut]

I am new to LHC (but have been a lurker for several months!) and am very curious about the co-washing method as my hair is dry. I swim alot and would rather avoid using an anti-residue shampoo since these are very harsh; can I effectively wash out the chlorine just using a conditioner? Also, does anyone have any tips on a good cheapie conditioner that has worked well for oily hair? The roots of my hair get oily within 24 hours! Thanks! :)

The problem with chlorine (as I'm sure you know) is that it attaches to hair and continues to cause damage long after the initial exposure. Regular shampoo and conditioner will not remove chlorine completely. Eventually the chlorine will get washed away but not before damage is done.

You can't neutralize chlorine in the hair without an antichlor. Antichlors include Sodium Thiosulfate (which is in Ultra Swim) and hydrogen peroxide. There's a bigger list here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichlor). You could buy an antichlor and add it to a shampoo of your choice if you wish. Here's one source. (http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/620804-AA.shtml)

Most COer's try to prevent chlorine damage by moisturizing their hair very well before swimming. Though, highly oiled hair is frowned upon by pool owners because it can foul the water. Many also wet their hair thoroughly before getting into the pool. The theory is that if the hair is already saturated with water, the chlorinated water won't penetrate the hair as much. Personally, I doubt this. As a dyer, I soak wool in water before dyeing and the dye still penetrates fully into the wool.

Your scalp getting oily quickly is a normal reaction to stopping harsh shampoos. Your scalp is used to getting dried out and compensating by producing a lot of oil. As it gets used to your new routine, the oil production will slow.

[afu]

Ok so i've been CO for a week, i've been using V05 Revive me daily conditioner as my 'scrubby' conditioner and Doves intensive repair express treatment conditioner on my length and ends afterwards. My hair hasn't been getting overly oily but I still think I could do with a lighter conditioner than V05 for washing with so yesterday I bought Superdrug Naturals Tea Tree and Peppermint conditioner for 99p I'm hoping to have better results with this, anyone else on here used it for co?

So far i've been having lovely results, I'm hoping that i'll be able to reach waist with this method as hopefully it'll stop my ends from drying out as fast.

I've not tried it but let us know how it goes, is it cone-free? I think the UK versions of VO5 have cones so you might see a difference just because of that. My recommendation for UK CO is Morrisons Jojoba. I think it's 80p for 750ml and I dilute it equal parts with water as it is pretty thick

[Tisiloves]

I am new to LHC (but have been a lurker for several months!) and am very curious about the co-washing method as my hair is dry. I swim alot and would rather avoid using an anti-residue shampoo since these are very harsh; can I effectively wash out the chlorine just using a conditioner? Also, does anyone have any tips on a good cheapie conditioner that has worked well for oily hair? The roots of my hair get oily within 24 hours! Thanks! :)

For swimming I would suggest heavy oiling and a swim cap, it's better to stop the chlorine getting in there in the first place than to strip it out afterwards.

[RachieBaby]

I've not tried it but let us know how it goes, is it cone-free? I think the UK versions of VO5 have cones so you might see a difference just because of that. My recommendation for UK CO is Morrisons Jojoba. I think it's 80p for 750ml and I dilute it equal parts with water as it is pretty thick

Yes I think its cone free, when I read the label I couldn't see any. It was definitely a lot lighter than the V05 conditioner and easier to rinse out. It also worked up quite a good lather especially if you added some more water to it. Im going to use it again tonight to see if I get the same result, hopefully i'll be able to continue to use this one. Also because its Tea Tree and Peppermint your scalp does feel really clean.
I'll keep an eye out for the Morrisons one though as that sounds exceptionally good value for money :) I think the Superdrug one is around 250mls.

Tomorrow I plan on a shampoo, DT and COing the DT out. Using shampoo as I don't think I could keep using CO without a shampoo once a week.

[afu]

I don't think I could keep using CO without a shampoo once a week.

Thats what I originally thought, now I barely touch shampoo! Most people find that once their hair has adjusted they have no need for shampoo in their regular routine, but by all means just listen to your hair and do what works best for you :)