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Heidi_234
April 27th, 2009, 04:34 AM
The thread about the possible flaw in the hairtyping system we use made me thinking. I do miss something here. Something obvious, something that makes a big difference between people when it comes to hair care. It's the oliness/dryness extent of one hair/scalp.
Hair care for people with oily hair is abysmally different than mine (my hair and scalp tend to be excessively dry). They might not need conditioner, oiling might not work for them at all, and so on, whether conditioners and oils are corner stones of my hair routine.
I know it would be hard to determine how oily/dry one's hair is. Sebum production can change due to routine changes, but even commercial products have separation for normal, dry and oily hair. It would make life on LHC a tad easier if I could see what a member recommended and what kind of hair it worked for.
Isn't it so?

Silver Strands
April 27th, 2009, 04:42 AM
I think you make a good point here.

But one thing that I have noticed is those with more curls deal with more dryness.
And of course those with straighter hair tend to lean towards more oiliness.

Heidi_234
April 27th, 2009, 04:53 AM
I think you make a good point here.

But one thing that I have noticed is those with more curls deal with more dryness.
And of course those with straighter hair tend to lean towards more oiliness.
Yeah, I thought of it too. But it's not necessarily that type 1 hair would be super oily, type 2 normal and 3 and 4 extremely dry. Some have not too oily straight hair, some are curlier than me but don't have hair as dry as mine. :shrug:

Silver Strands
April 27th, 2009, 05:02 AM
I think age may also play a role.
My hair is a little less oily the older I have gotten.

Milui Elenath
April 27th, 2009, 07:28 AM
I was thinking this just yesterday! In particular it would be helpful in the wash threads, I often wonder if it's something only people with oily or dry hair have had sucess with. I think it's definitely a worthwhile classifier.

On the hair curl/ oil factor - my hair is stick straight and my scalp is normal but prone to dryness.

Anje
April 27th, 2009, 07:44 AM
I've thought something similar -- that you need to compare with someone with a similar scalp as well as hair type, to find what is likely to work.

My thoughts are more along the lines of letter classifiers, though, than simply a spectrum, based on the person's dominant scalp issues. Something along the lines of dry, normal, oily, dry sebum (such as what Mira-chan describes), seborrheic dermatitis, excema/psoriasis, and reactive (to chemicals). Maybe "itchy when dirty" as well.

mira-chan
April 27th, 2009, 08:19 AM
I've thought something similar -- that you need to compare with someone with a similar scalp as well as hair type, to find what is likely to work.

My thoughts are more along the lines of letter classifiers, though, than simply a spectrum, based on the person's dominant scalp issues. Something along the lines of dry, normal, oily, dry sebum (such as what Mira-chan describes), seborrheic dermatitis, excema/psoriasis, and reactive (to chemicals). Maybe "itchy when dirty" as well.
Instead of being part of the hair type classifier this would probably be best as a category in the profile. There is more space there and you can write in your scalp issue(s).

LiraelQ
April 27th, 2009, 08:28 AM
A newbie's two cents--I think this is a fantastic idea! I'm only just beginning to realize how great a separation there can be between hair and scalp type (it took me a few months of paying attention to my hair to realize I don't have oily hair, just an oily scalp), and how drastically a difference in scalp type can alter a washing method's results.

These things change with age, certainly, but so do other aspects of our hair types, like thickness, texture, and color. I don't think that should stop us from using scalp condition as a classifier.

Again, just a newbie opinion :)

Heidi_234
April 27th, 2009, 09:07 AM
I've thought something similar -- that you need to compare with someone with a similar scalp as well as hair type, to find what is likely to work.

My thoughts are more along the lines of letter classifiers, though, than simply a spectrum, based on the person's dominant scalp issues. Something along the lines of dry, normal, oily, dry sebum (such as what Mira-chan describes), seborrheic dermatitis, excema/psoriasis, and reactive (to chemicals). Maybe "itchy when dirty" as well.
Well, then I fall into 4 of those you mention. I think that we should stick to the main characteristic - as in the dry-normal-oily spectrum. Scalp issues and other things are much more specific and individual. But we need to widen it, not just 'dry' or just 'oily', that's too general. Some experience kind of oily scalp, whereas other have very oily scalp, both go under 'oily'. Maybe we should determine oiliness (or lack of thereof) by days it takes the scalp to get greasy? For example, some have to wash everyday, mine doesn't get too greasy on day 7.

JamieLeigh
April 27th, 2009, 09:51 AM
I think you make a good point here.

But one thing that I have noticed is those with more curls deal with more dryness.
And of course those with straighter hair tend to lean towards more oiliness.

Maybe the increased oil production on the scalp is what causes hair to be straighter? I never thought of that before, but when you put your sentences that way, it jumped to me. Do you think that if straight-haired people managed to decrease the oil content on their scalps, they might have wavier hair eventually? :confused:

misstwist
April 27th, 2009, 09:55 AM
Maybe the increased oil production on the scalp is what causes hair to be straighter? I never thought of that before, but when you put your sentences that way, it jumped to me. Do you think that if straight-haired people managed to decrease the oil content on their scalps, they might have wavier hair eventually? :confused:

Hair is straight or curly based on the shape of the hair follicle.

Heidi_234
April 27th, 2009, 09:58 AM
Maybe the increased oil production on the scalp is what causes hair to be straighter? I never thought of that before, but when you put your sentences that way, it jumped to me. Do you think that if straight-haired people managed to decrease the oil content on their scalps, they might have wavier hair eventually? :confused:
I doubt that. Hair texture is a result of different shape of individual hairs. If the hair is round, it will be straight, if it's oval, it will curl. I'd say that the fact that one hair is curly, might explain why it is also dry - the shape of the hair might make it lose moisture more easily.

Silver Strands
April 27th, 2009, 10:03 AM
Maybe the increased oil production on the scalp is what causes hair to be straighter? I never thought of that before, but when you put your sentences that way, it jumped to me. Do you think that if straight-haired people managed to decrease the oil content on their scalps, they might have wavier hair eventually? :confused:

No, I don't think so.
I think they go hand in hand genetically.

LiraelQ
April 27th, 2009, 11:54 AM
I doubt that. Hair texture is a result of different shape of individual hairs. If the hair is round, it will be straight, if it's oval, it will curl. I'd say that the fact that one hair is curly, might explain why it is also dry - the shape of the hair might make it lose moisture more easily.

This is what I learned in school (emphasis mine):


For many years, it was believed that the shape of a personís hair was determined by the individual hair shafts, and that curly and 'kinky' hair get their shape because the cross-section of the hair shaft was flatter and had more intertwined layers than straight hair, which was round. But scientists have determined that whether your hair is curly, 'kinky', or straight is determined by the shape of the follicle itself and the direction in which each strand grows out of its follicle. Curly and/or 'kinky' hair is shaped like an elongated oval and grows at a sharp angle to the scalp. This growth pattern, in turn, determines the cross-section of the shafts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_texture

Lady Copper
April 27th, 2009, 12:06 PM
I think it would be cool to add another classifier (under a different section). It could be really helpful.

I actually have straight hair that is naturally very dry. The difference now from before LHC when I just did wash/condition once a week, with NO heat even, is amazing. But naturally it is dry and so is my skin.

Heidi_234
April 27th, 2009, 12:21 PM
LiraelQ, that's right. My bad. But OTOH, the hair comes out the shape of it's follicle if I'm not mistaken, so I wasn't entirely wrong (ot at least I hope I wasn't... :p).

jel
April 27th, 2009, 12:21 PM
LOL, do you know how hard it was for me to pick the first three classifiers? :p

I wouldn't know where to start with the fourth one! :D

Especially as, well, I don't know what my scalp is like... It used to be oily, now it's mostly normal and occasionally dry and itchy. Or oily and flaky! Either way, massaging a bit of jojoba oil (with EOs) makes it normal again. And it doesn't really impact my hair at all - any oiling/conditioning takes place below the ears, a few inches away from the scalp.

lapushka
April 27th, 2009, 12:29 PM
The Raponsje forum (a Belgian/Dutch longhair forum) added this 4th classifier to the code a long time ago. Hope you can see this list:
http://raponsje.forumup.be/viewtopic.php?t=86&mforum=raponsje

We've added D N V to the code, at the end of the code - in English this is: D N O (dry normal oily (or G for greasy, whichever you prefer)).
My code there is 2aFiiiV or 2aFiiiO/2aFiiiG.

It does help having the 4th classifier, it does make a difference with product use and such and with various methods. It's not just about texture, or fine or normal hair or thickness.

neon-dream
April 27th, 2009, 01:29 PM
I think this is a good idea! It'd help people with finding the right products for them :).

freznow
April 27th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Well, I've had anything from dry to oily hair depending on products/what time of year/etc., and my scalp issues change more too. Frankly, I'd find the scalp issues thing more helpful. CO can clean oily and dry hair without stripping, even with the same conditioner, though it is, I suppose, more likely that the oily and dry people may use different ones. It depends on more than whether you have oily or dry hair (which is so hard to qualify - I know people who complain about oily hair when it's no more oily then my typical hair, which I consider dry to normal), such as what type of sebum you have.

So, I'm not sure. There is the good point in that product companies use oily/normal/dry to market their products. But the differences seem minimal - it's like in pet foods, they say kitten/adult/senior/inside/whatever, when there's only a *minute* difference like 1% more fat in the kitten stuff, and it makes nearly NO difference. It's just a way to market things. I think with the hair products it would be similar. I'm sure there are people with different amounts of oiliness who use the same product with similar success rates, and people with the same hairtype, some of whom love a product, others who hate it...

Then there's also the issue of "It creates more work for the mods." It is ultimately up to the mods. It doesn't LOOK like adding at least something to the profile page would be all that difficult, though, and I think it would be helpful to have some sort of category in the profile page relating to this, similar to the 'routine' box. :shrug:

As per curly/straight: it's how the oil is distributed. Say a curly and a straightie produce the exact same amount of oil. With the straightie, the oil goes smoothly down the hair, coating it rather well as the shaft tends to be a smooth circular shape. However, curly hair tends to have more rough spots (at least, I've read that African hair has a groove along one side. I'm not sure if this is typical of all curls, or if they have something similar, but I'd think so), and the oil has a harder time covering the oval hair shaft efficiently. (So, which came first, the curl or the dryness? The amount of wave tends to cause dryness [depending on oil production], not the other way around.)

Heidi_234
April 27th, 2009, 02:28 PM
The Raponsje forum (a Belgian/Dutch longhair forum) added this 4th classifier to the code a long time ago. Hope you can see this list:
http://raponsje.forumup.be/viewtopic.php?t=86&mforum=raponsje

We've added D N V to the code, at the end of the code - in English this is: D N O (dry normal oily (or G for greasy, whichever you prefer)).
My code there is 2aFiiiV or 2aFiiiO/2aFiiiG.

It does help having the 4th classifier, it does make a difference with product use and such and with various methods. It's not just about texture, or fine or normal hair or thickness.
I would even expand it -
OO - very oily
O - oily
ON - normal to oily
N - normal
ND - normal to dry
D - dry
DD - very dry
Although it would be hard to objectively determine where you belong, unless you're in the extremes. So, again, maybe a use of number to classify, by days hair gets too oily to be tolerable, is better. :shrug:


Well, I've had anything from dry to oily hair depending on products/what time of year/etc., and my scalp issues change more too. Frankly, I'd find the scalp issues thing more helpful. CO can clean oily and dry hair without stripping, even with the same conditioner, though it is, I suppose, more likely that the oily and dry people may use different ones. It depends on more than whether you have oily or dry hair (which is so hard to qualify - I know people who complain about oily hair when it's no more oily then my typical hair, which I consider dry to normal), such as what type of sebum you have.

So, I'm not sure. There is the good point in that product companies use oily/normal/dry to market their products. But the differences seem minimal - it's like in pet foods, they say kitten/adult/senior/inside/whatever, when there's only a *minute* difference like 1% more fat in the kitten stuff, and it makes nearly NO difference. It's just a way to market things. I think with the hair products it would be similar. I'm sure there are people with different amounts of oiliness who use the same product with similar success rates, and people with the same hairtype, some of whom love a product, others who hate it...

Then there's also the issue of "It creates more work for the mods." It is ultimately up to the mods. It doesn't LOOK like adding at least something to the profile page would be all that difficult, though, and I think it would be helpful to have some sort of category in the profile page relating to this, similar to the 'routine' box. :shrug:

As per curly/straight: it's how the oil is distributed. Say a curly and a straightie produce the exact same amount of oil. With the straightie, the oil goes smoothly down the hair, coating it rather well as the shaft tends to be a smooth circular shape. However, curly hair tends to have more rough spots (at least, I've read that African hair has a groove along one side. I'm not sure if this is typical of all curls, or if they have something similar, but I'd think so), and the oil has a harder time covering the oval hair shaft efficiently. (So, which came first, the curl or the dryness? The amount of wave tends to cause dryness [depending on oil production], not the other way around.)
Well, I agree, and I said that hair care routine might influence it. Constant use of shampoo might force the scalp to overproduce sebum. But routine can influence hair type too. It's not one time thing, just like hair type changes (or you get to know the typing system better and realized you chose it wrong).
I agree, it's not accurate, and somewhat abstract. But as a person with very dry hair and scalp I can tell you that it is a big factor for some people (like me) and very easily determined too. When I started this thread, I thought of the oiliness of the hair and the scalp as one thing, and it became clear to me it's a scalp thing. We're yet to come up with a perfect classifier. And I agree with you, right now it's much more subjective too.
But I still think that there's a place for such classifier, it would give at least a rough estimate of what kind of hair a person have, in terms of oiliness/dryness, which is the number one factor in hair care IMO.

lapushka
April 27th, 2009, 02:35 PM
I would even expand it -
OO - very oily
O - oily
ON - normal to oily
N - normal
ND - normal to dry
D - dry
DD - very dry
Although it would be hard to objectively determine where you belong, unless you're in the extremes. So, again, maybe a use of number to classify, by days hair gets too oily to be tolerable, is better. :shrug:

We've classified it as such:

O -> when you HAVE TO wash more than once a week
N -> when you HAVE TO wash once a week
D -> when you DON'T HAVE TO wash every week, and can leave it much longer than that, some people even up to 2 weeks, a month

Combinations are possible, just like you would do this: ii/iii or i/ii, you can do this: N/O, D/N.

Heidi_234
April 27th, 2009, 02:38 PM
We've classified it as such:

O -> when you HAVE TO wash more than once a week
N -> when you HAVE TO wash once a week
D -> when you DON'T HAVE TO wash every week, and can leave it much longer than that, some people even up to 2 weeks, a month

Combinations are possible, just like you would do this: ii/iii or i/ii, you can do this: N/O, D/N.
That's weird, because I see many people people struggling with each day they go without washing, so washing everyday and every 3 days makes a big difference to them. I mean, I think it should be more detailed on the O side there. :shrug:
But it makes sense overall.

lapushka
April 27th, 2009, 02:45 PM
Well finding something that works for everyone is generally impossible, you have to make a choice and draw a line somewhere. I remember reading this somewhere, that normal hair is washed about once a week, oilier more often and dryer less often.

My mom's hair is dry and she can go without washing for weeks. My aunt has to wash it about as much as me, 2 to 3 times a week. How can you tell if your hair's oily, normal, dry? It's the pace at which it gets oily at the roots, I guess the first half to half an inch. That's how I'd "measure" it. If you can't stretch washings by delaying them, then I guess it's just your hair type and that's how you find out what your hair type is. Most people are used to washing often, daily, every other day, regardless of their hair, when it might not even be necessary.

Anje
April 27th, 2009, 04:13 PM
Like Freznow, I vary seasonally with how oily I am. Right now, the oil at my roots would probably be noticeable to someone other than me after about 5-7 days, depending on handling. In the winter, that goes down to about 3 days. But I don't have other problems, and I appreciate that, but I also appreciate that people who have sensitive or weird scalps are also the ones who most need to compare notes with others on what works. For someone like me, just about anything is possible if it doesn't overdry my ends.

snowbear
April 27th, 2009, 05:18 PM
There was discussion about this ages ago, and from what I can recall, the general consensus was "if it's not broken, don't fix it."

kwaniesiam
April 27th, 2009, 05:37 PM
+1 to that. I think this type of information is best left to your individual profile, since we are talking about HAIR type, not scalp type after all :shrug: Yes, I know they go hand in hand, but someone with the same hair type as you can have a completely different scalp type. Also things like even thickness can play a role in how often you need to wash your hair. I personally need to wash daily not because my hair is excessively oily, but because the small bit of oil causes my scalp to be seen through how fine my hair is.