Updos, tangles, and damage

[Katze]

Ok, another philosophical post from me. :D

Lately, I've been noticing that my hair gets tangled, and that these tangles create more splits, bends, and kinks. The problem is exclusively at or near the ends, and is worse at the back, where I have long layers in baby fine hair (shoulder length now).

Unfortunately the tangles seem to come from wearing my hair up or in braids! For example, I went swimming on Friday and French braided my mostly dry hair into two braids (as in profile pic) because it was in my way. Lately I have also been 'throwing my hair up' (I can't do very many updos) into a messy coil on top of my head and clipping it with a claw clip or Ficcare.

When I take it down or take the braids out the length falls down on its own (my hair finally has WEIGHT!!!) but the ends stay all kinked and bent and tangled and it takes a while to 'rescue' them. Also, I end up having to S&D when my hair is down. I do put a LOT of leave-in (Fox's cream, oil, conditioner, misting) into my hair, especially at the ends, but have been using shampoo (sulfate and non sulfate) with every wash.

If I wear my hair down and don't touch it, this doesn't happen. Even if I sleep on it down.

Anyone have an idea of what's going on? Is it because I am sleeping on these hairdos?

My hair is nicer than it has ever been before and I am so happy with it, so I am wondering if this is just the last of the old color/heat damage, or if this has something to do with my hair's desire to naturally "fairytale" or what? Thin ends (which I am trimming) are more susceptible to tangling and damage? Could it be from the shampooing after swimming? Or do I need to comb thoroughly before even 'throwing my hair up' (I don't comb very much, as my hair looks better wavier).

Sitting around waiting for my baby to come I have a lot of time to think about hair, and I would like to be able to put it up and away during birth and afterwards, so any help is appreciated. :D

thanks!

Katze

[Phalaenopsis]

I think it has to do with the fact that you don't comb your hair when you put it up. I also have very tangly hair and if I don't comb it before putting it in a braid or something, it even becomes a bigger mess.

So I'd say you better start combing that hair, you untidy girl :p

[AutumnLeaves]

I've been wondering if you have had your little guy yet! Hope you are feeling well; it sounds like it!

[Katze]

I think it has to do with the fact that you don't comb your hair when you put it up. I also have very tangly hair and if I don't comb it before putting it in a braid or something, it even becomes a bigger mess.

So I'd say you better start combing that hair, you untidy girl :p

So even if you just 'throw your hair up' you have to COMB it?!? I guess that's the difference between my hair and hair like my sister's (fine, straight, thick) - she can just twist, clip, and go, whereas I need more maintenance. Maybe when the damage and dyed bits are all gone the rest of my hair will be less tangly? :silly:


I've been wondering if you have had your little guy yet! Hope you are feeling well; it sounds like it!

No, still waiting (trying not to 'wait') but thanks for asking. :flower: The sun is shining and we went on a bike ride yesterday so I am feeling better today. I hope to be able to tell my kid someday that 'I rode my bike even on the day you were born!'

[Phalaenopsis]

I also have fine, straight thick hair and I don't know how in the world your sister does it:eek:

But damaged hair is prone to tangles, so that also may be it.

[Carolyn]

I think the finer hair types are more prone to tangling. It may be something you have to just learn to deal with. I'd at least finger comb before thowing it into a messy updo. With my hair it would be tangles begetting more tangles. Another thing I would question is how much leave in you are putting on your hair. If I use too much then my ends kind of stick together in knots. If I understand from your other posts, you wash once a week but add leave ins daily? Could you be over doing the leave ins?

[Anje]

I agree with the others -- I at least finger comb before putting my hair up or in a braid, to get the strands aligned a bit. I also don't tend to twist the last few inches, and if I'm braiding I need to be careful to make sure all the strands are aligned under whatever I use to secure it, or a few hairs will have nasty kinks. Kinked hairs that do curliques at the ends, or that double back on themselves then love to catch other hairs and do similar things to them (they're like prions!).

I do wonder if some of the leave-in is encouraging your ends to take on whatever position the updos held them in -- it certainly can happen that way for me, or if my hair is damp when it goes up (SBCC seems to dampen hair, too).

I'll admit -- I keep checking your profile to find out if your kitty has hatched yet. I suspect that just like the cats I have, yours is curled up in a nice warm place and doesn't want to leave.

[JamieLeigh]

Don't make me have to come all the way over there and bounce on that tummy!! :D I too am sending well-wishes your way for you and that baby kitty. I wasn't very patient at all when my little ones were late...and late they ALL FIVE were. :rolleyes: *sigh* Kids....

Not to hijack the thread, sorry, LOL. I have pretty fine hair also, and I too find that I have less of a problem with braids and tangles when I comb through it first, if I can. Some days I just don't have time, thanks to the length, but luckily I haven't given up on my -cones completely yet, so I really don't get too many tangles, even from sleeping on it loose. Also, the rubber bands on the ends of the braids might be making the ends kink a bit more than usual, if they're in there for a long time. I've started oiling the bottom two inches of my braids, and securing them less tightly, to avoid that kinky-ness (;)) at the ends. Surprisingly, the rubber bands haven't fallen off yet. :D

[JamieLeigh]

Another thing....if you're braiding all the way down to the ends, that might be part of what's causing it. I should probably have clarified...my last two inches that I oil are mostly tassel.

[rags]

Another fine hair here, and I simply must comb my hair before I put it up, or it's tangle city! It seems like the very ends just have a mind of their own and if I don't tuck them in properly, they will make a snarly mess.

I'm sending good thoughts your way! My DD was two weeks late - stubborn even then! :D

[Bloodflower]

When I put my hair up I have to be careful to smooth my ends into the updo. If I just wrap until there's no more hair left and don't pay attention to how the ends lie they will come out bent like you described. It gets worse when my hair's damp.

And like others have said, my hair comes nicer out of an updo if I have combed it before putting it up.

[kdaniels8811]

Katze - I comb my hair upside down before putting it up, I could not do it without combing! So that may be the answer, smooth it before the updo. Yes, I am patiently waiting to see news of the "baby kitty" also. When a day goes by and I have not seen a post from you I wonder... Smile!

[mira-chan]

I think it has to do with the fact that you don't comb your hair when you put it up. I also have very tangly hair and if I don't comb it before putting it in a braid or something, it even becomes a bigger mess.

So I'd say you better start combing that hair, you untidy girl :p

It is likely a hair type thing. My hair is coarse and not very tangly. I barely finger combed my hair in the past couple of months and it's not tangled, up or down.

Plus the bit of damage left probably isn't helping things.

[spidermom]

I went swimming quite a bit in a chlorinated pool and the ocean in 2007 and spent the better part of the next year cutting away the damage. I always braided it to the very ends with oil and/or conditioner in my hair before going out each day, but I swear - the bottom 6-8 inches of my hair were trashed, and they were like Velcro. I think with the swimming you might be having problems like that, too. Even without the damage, to this day I have to very carefully comb and smooth my hair before braiding or bunning, else I get the worst tangles and knots and scrunched-up hairs that you can imagine. Sometimes I don't have the time, and do I ever pay for my haste later!

[Gumball]

I have to comb my hair before I put it up or the tangles and the hair hugging itself just get compounded and more frustrating later on. Sometimes, since my default daily style is a regular braid, I have to gauge at the end of the evening how it looks and whether or not I have to undo it, comb it out, and redo it, before I go to sleep. If it gets to a certain fluffy look I know the morning will just prove to have more tangles than I wanted it to.

Of course I never totally "throw it up and go" because I just know what that will mean when I take it down. I'm pretty sure it's a mix of hair condition, length, hair type, and the fact that my hair type and regular shed rate gives random length hairs time to get all over my head and meet and greet. Ugh. All those hair handshakes.

[Arctic_Mama]

It's a hair type thing, I think. Fine hair is more prone to tangles and easier to bend.

[Hypnotica]

Hehe, you will get an Aries :D They are nice little creatures - I'm one!

[DragonLady]

I almost always carefully comb my hair before putting it up or trying to braid it. But, I still get more tangles than if I'd left it down. It doesn't get as much damage from other stuff like doors and being dunked in the sink- but it does get tangles. And sometimes I end up with a thousand little bent, crinkly ends I'm forced to cut off because they tangle with the other hairs and cause splits. So I'm starting to believe that putting my hair up equals a small amount of length lost everytime because of having to pull out tangles and cut off damage it causes. :(

[spidermom]

I almost always carefully comb my hair before putting it up or trying to braid it. But, I still get more tangles than if I'd left it down. It doesn't get as much damage from other stuff like doors and being dunked in the sink- but it does get tangles. And sometimes I end up with a thousand little bent, crinkly ends I'm forced to cut off because they tangle with the other hairs and cause splits. So I'm starting to believe that putting my hair up equals a small amount of length lost everytime because of having to pull out tangles and cut off damage it causes. :(

It's not the same for me at all. The longer I leave my hair down, the more tightly it tangles and knots. I get a big fat matt at the back of my neck. I comb it out and carefully put my hair up when I'm going to be focusing on other things. I take it down and comb it out again at the end of my day (or night), which is relaxing. That's when I get to enjoy my hair.

[ginalaurie]

I think it's a fine hair thing. I have to comb before braiding or putting it up. What's helped me most in dealing with tangles is to start combing from the bottom and to angle my comb tines up instead of down. Also, some of the kinks you see may be caused by your ficcares. Those jagged teeth on the inside of them caused so many bends and kinks in my hair until I got DH to pull off the teeth and sand down where they were. Now no more kinks and I love my ficcares, mutilated though they may be.

I can't wait until we find out what kind of hair baby cat has!

[Darkhorse1]

I don't tend to notice as much of a difference. My hair doesn't tangle much unless I'm out in the wind or keeping my hair in a ponytail when riding. then my ends are a mess. Braiding it is the best for me.

I wonder if it's due to fine hair? I have a client with very fine hair and it's very straight, and she said it tangles easily. My hair isn't that fine, so I can't really comment. I do notice if I try fancy hair styles, I do break hairs unfortunatley.

[Babyfine]

Hi Katze- I have babyfine hair 2aFi/ii that is also colour treated(demiperm). I treat it like antique lace in every other way(no heat,ect)
I know for my hair it is an absolute MUST that I comb through it first before I put it in an updo, braid it or ponytail it- or - massive tangles at the end of the day!
I can't wear my hair down as much as I'd like, unless I detangle it frequently or I have big knots at the end of the day. Even low ponytails(which I think look much better on me than high pony's or updo's)cause my hair to knot. Probably due to the rubbing against my shirt/blouse in back.
My hair is BSL now- It has never been longer in the quest of constantly thickening up my hemline- then giving in and cutting back to above shoulder length in late2007 to get rid of old bleached highlights and starting again.
It's very windy where I live most of the time so when I step outside -up it goes. I do like it down more, though so I will wear it that way occasionally, or a half up.
It probably doesn't help that I color it but my hair has always been very tangle-y, even when it was "virgin", when I was young.
I think your hair looks great BTW- good growing!
I know what you mean about the bends and kinks my hair does that too- I have to comb through it after taking it down from an updo, too.

[rhubarbarin]

My hair doesn't tangle (except in the one small spot I have fine strands, and only under certain circumstances). But my ends seem to hate updos, also. They get dry, rough, and bent. I wear my hair down a lot, and really that seems to be what agrees with it. When I put it up, I usually leave the ends loose (I always have a very long tassle when I do a braid), or do a style where they can be tucked in but not have any tension on them (like a french twist). Things like cinnabuns and peacock twists make the last 8" nasty. Like you Katze I am slowly trimming off lots and damage and taper.

[Katze]

My hair doesn't tangle (except in the one small spot I have fine strands, and only under certain circumstances). But my ends seem to hate updos, also. They get dry, rough, and bent. I wear my hair down a lot, and really that seems to be what agrees with it. When I put it up, I usually leave the ends loose (I always have a very long tassle when I do a braid), or do a style where they can be tucked in but not have any tension on them (like a french twist). Things like cinnabuns and peacock twists make the last 8" nasty. Like you Katze I am slowly trimming off lots and damage and taper.

After wearing my hair in high, messy buns the past few days, combed, I have less tangles but still a lot of bends and kinks and splits. I don't get it.

It's almost impossible for me to get my hair into a smooth updo. But I combed and carefully coiled it into my version of a cinnamon bun (which looks more like a birds' nest with my taper and layers) and wore it like this. So I am thinking with the state of my ends (many different lengths, longest bits heat/chemical damaged) that they get more damage being contained than not.

Rhubarbarin, it's exactly as you describe - 'dry, rough, and bent.' Despite using Fox's cream and misting and oiling, combing, etc my hair was really dry each time I took it down to redo, and hard to comb through.

Back to the drawing board...

[Anje]

I know you suspect the updos as a culprit, but "dry, rough, and bent" describes my hair when it gets dry, and usually protein-overloaded. Any chance that could play in?

Another thought: how are you securing your buns? Securing anything with a hairband would create all kinds of kinks for me, so I vastly prefer sticks or wavelength pins. (No Amish pins yet, but my U pins, even the 3 inchers, are too flexible and don't hold as well as a wavelength pin.)

[Katze]

I know you suspect the updos as a culprit, but "dry, rough, and bent" describes my hair when it gets dry, and usually protein-overloaded. Any chance that could play in?

Another thought: how are you securing your buns? Securing anything with a hairband would create all kinds of kinks for me, so I vastly prefer sticks or wavelength pins. (No Amish pins yet, but my U pins, even the 3 inchers, are too flexible and don't hold as well as a wavelength pin.)

This is very well moisturized hair (oil, Fox's cream, CO washed last time) so it is less so than usual. I honestly don't usually pay much attention to protein, but don't think that I use anything with too much protein...

I clip my bun with a Ficcare or claw clip. Bobby pins work for my length, but they also seem to make more kinks in my ends. U-shaped pins do not hold my hair at all - the last time I tried them, they fell out all the time, and my hair 'ate' (bent) them.

Sticks...haven't really practiced enough. I can stick a stick in and make it hold if I twist it in my hair, pull it out a bit, and weave it back through, but I am not comfortable with them for updos - they feel insecure. I do only have one (Ketylo) hairstick and some chopsticks I wear if I am not biking. Some day, I will try a hair fork...

[Katze]

I know you suspect the updos as a culprit, but "dry, rough, and bent" describes my hair when it gets dry, and usually protein-overloaded. Any chance that could play in?

Another thought: how are you securing your buns? Securing anything with a hairband would create all kinds of kinks for me, so I vastly prefer sticks or wavelength pins. (No Amish pins yet, but my U pins, even the 3 inchers, are too flexible and don't hold as well as a wavelength pin.)

This is very well moisturized hair (oil, Fox's cream, CO washed last time) so it is less so than usual. I honestly don't usually pay much attention to protein, but don't think that I use anything with too much protein...

I clip my bun with a Ficcare or claw clip. Bobby pins work for my length, but they also seem to make more kinks in my ends. U-shaped pins do not hold my hair at all - the last time I tried them, they fell out all the time, and my hair 'ate' (bent) them. Sometimes I use mini claw clips, but find them to be time consuming.

Sticks...haven't really practiced enough. I can stick a stick in and make it hold if I twist it in my hair, pull it out a bit, and weave it back through, but I am not comfortable with them for updos - they feel insecure. I do only have one (Ketylo) hairstick and some chopsticks I wear if I am not biking. Some day, I will try a hair fork...

I guess I am just looking for ways I can wear my hair like my (straight haired) sister (and several other straight haired friends) does - twist, clip, and be done. But her hair is all one length and smooth, if fine. Mine is wispy and willfull and messy, leading me to have to redo updos anyway, meaning I get even lazier...

[rhubarbarin]

I don't use any protein - my hair hates it. And I use lots of super-moisturizing products.

What seems to disagree with me ends is a)being under any tension when styled, or b)letting them exist in the air for too long. :) Unless they're heavily oiled, my hair feels and looks it healthiest when it's recently been submerged in water. Which after all is the most 'moist' moisturizer there is.

Katze, have you experimented at all with using water on the dry parts of your hair between washes? Lots of curlies and wavies with dry hair do this.

[Deborah]

I have super-fine hair. It tangles MUCH more when I wear it down or in a pony tail. Braiding helps some, but wearing it up = no tangles for me.

You have mentioned that you still have damaged ends. I wonder if they might be the problem. Also, in a messy bun, some leave the ends out. This could add to the dryness and tangling.

I hope you find a good solution soon. :)

[spidermom]

Another thing to realize is that wavy and curly hair structure is flatter, so it takes on new configurations easier. This is nice when you want curl but not so nice when you take out your bobby pins and have scrunched-up-looking ends. Straighter hair is round, which is why it won't hold things like curls or braid waves, also why it doesn't get scrunched-looking from being pinned.

I've found that it's best to avoid up-dos that require twisting because it causes the ends to friction against each other and grab. When I try to separate them, they're like Velcro in some areas. Extra length has given me more options in nontwisted updos ... something to look forward to for you.

[julya]

Even if I detangle very well before I but it up, my hair still has some new tangles when I take it down. Buns are much better than braids for tangles. I can't even do a braid without spending time combing it pretty throughly. Sleeping in the same braid I wore for the day is a big no-no for me, tangles galore!

I don't usual detangle before putting my hair up into a bun. I don't think that it is any more tangled than it would be otherwise. Fine hair is pretty tangly, I guess, but I have a couple of fine haired family members that wear their hair down all the time and still don't get many tangles at all.

[Amoretti]

Definitely try a good, sturdy hairfork.

[manderly]

Katze, I have the exact same problem. I really think it's because we're wavies, we don't get our hair perfectly smooth when we wrap our buns....the waves fight and still try to go their own way, so when we compress them into buns the little dissenters gets kinks and bends in them.

It doesn't matter how much I smooth my hair or comb it prior to twisting and wrapping! Doesn't matter if it's wet/dry, oiled or siliconed, nuthin.

I think I cut more kinks, bad angles, and single haired knots than anything else when I S&D.

[Mishka_84]

I have noticed more tangles from certain buns, and definitely more when I braid my hair. So it leaves me not wanting to put my hair up, to keep from damaging it, but at the same time, it's so windy here if I leave it down I'll have just as much damage.

One bun I've found that doesn't damage as much is the Lazy Bun. (I think that's what it's called, anyways). There's no twisting with this bun, which I think helps.

[patissegrietje]

Katze, I have the exact same problem. I really think it's because we're wavies, we don't get our hair perfectly smooth when we wrap our buns....the waves fight and still try to go their own way, so when we compress them into buns the little dissenters gets kinks and bends in them.


I think the waves could be a big part of the problem.
I made a close up of the coarse unruly hair on top of my head, and i think by examining it that it's just impossible NOT to get it tangled it is in all different directions, and thes are just a few hairs:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k210/ouwekrakkemik/unruly.jpg




One bun I've found that doesn't damage as much is the Lazy Bun. (I think that's what it's called, anyways). There's no twisting with this bun, which I think helps.

I'm going to check out this bun :D

And Katze, i'm hoping your little one is finally there! :flower:

[spidermom]

I think the waves could be a big part of the problem.
I made a close up of the coarse unruly hair on top of my head, and i think by examining it that it's just impossible NOT to get it tangled it is in all different directions, and thes are just a few hairs:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k210/ouwekrakkemik/unruly.jpg



I'm going to check out this bun :D

And Katze, i'm hoping your little one is finally there! :flower:

Different color, but my hair looks very much like this.

[ravenreed]

If I use ANY extra protein, my hair gets kind of stiff and dry feeling on the last couple inches and I get little hooks on there that seem to catch everything. I am guessing protein is your culprit. It is in a lot of conditioners. I am having trouble finding a nice, moisturizing conditioner with no cones and no protein... they all seem to have one or the other!

That being said, I have to constantly comb my hair or I get tangly mats, especially at the back of my neck, where I seem to have a small patch of baby fine hair. I comb before washing, or I can't detangle it after... I comb it several times a day unless it is up... I can remember having to cut knots out of my hair as a kid, so it isn't color damage, just my persnickety hair. It is better when I keep it saturated in coconut oil, but then I get the oily, stringy look I hate. So I only do that on days I intend to keep it up.

[patissegrietje]

Different color, but my hair looks very much like this.

Glad to hear i'm not the only one with hair like this! :D

[Katze]

I think the waves could be a big part of the problem.
I made a close up of the coarse unruly hair on top of my head, and i think by examining it that it's just impossible NOT to get it tangled it is in all different directions, and thes are just a few hairs:
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k210/ouwekrakkemik/unruly.jpg



I'm going to check out this bun :D

And Katze, i'm hoping your little one is finally there! :flower:

My hair is the opposite - finer and straighter on top. These hairs seem to be more fragile, are therefore probably more damaged, and tangle much more easily.

Also, I *have* to twist my hair, especially at the sides, to get it to stay in any updo. Otherwise I have what looks like a chin length bob in front from layers and new growth.

Waves are definitely part of it - I can't get my crown hair to lie smooth unless I really torture it.

Little one is, finally, coming...slow start to labor so I am just chilling. Getting a lot of practice with 'buns' (my version which do not look like LHC buns, and which I would not wear out of the house) as I wait for each contraction, climb in and out of the tub, etc.

[manderly]

OMG!! You're in labor!!! WHOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

Welcome to the world, little one :D

[Kazazi]

Oooh, good luck with baby kitty's arrival, Katze!

[Kaeri]

*fingers crossed* for a relatively easy birth for you. :)