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ktani
March 13th, 2009, 11:21 AM
I do a lot of research on the safety of ingredients. I have had reactions to both natural and conventional cosmetic products.

I got to wondering recently, where the research reports on adverse reactions come from. Are they limited to research studies? Reports from doctors and hospitals? No doubt all of these.

However, not too long ago in an attempt to track down a safety reference for a specific herb, I kept getting redirected to this site and page, although I eventually found exactly what I was looking for, elsewhere.

"By reporting adverse reactions to cosmetics, consumers will be helping the Cosmetics Program identify worrisome products and indicate where corrective action may be required."
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/person/cosmet/reactions-eng.php

Governments are actively seeking feedback from consumers on problems with products and the information they are asking for, is not limited to emergency reactions.

"Why should I report?
The testing that helps to establish the safety of products, such as drugs and medical devices, is typically conducted on small groups before FDA approves the products for sale. Some problems can remain unknown, only to be discovered when a product is used by a large number of people.
When problems with FDA-regulated products occur, the agency wants to know about them and has several ways for the public to make reports. Timely reporting by consumers, health professionals, and FDA-regulated companies allows the agency to take prompt action. The agency evaluates each report to determine how serious the problem is, and, if necessary, may request additional information from the person who filed the report before taking action."
http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/problem.html

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 11:48 AM
To me the issue is helping to prevent others from having to go through the same reaction.

It is certainly not in the best interests nor is it the intent, of the governments to shut business down over infractions. The econamy is bad enough and business generates jobs and income and supports taxes.

However, making sure businesses toe the line on regulations and safety is very important. With all of the concerns voiced on these boards about the safety of ingredients in conventional and natural cosmetics, this is one way someone can make a small but significant difference.

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 12:19 PM
Let me put this another way. Here in Canada, a property owner be it of an apartment, business, house or condo is responsible for clearing sidewalks of snow and ice within 12 hours of the end of a storm (the regulations may vary slightly city to city, province to province). That means all sidewalks, in front of and adjacent to a property.

I phoned the City of Toronto, to check on this last year. I finally reported the condo across the street because getting to my grocery store requires me to use the stretch of sidewalk in front of that building (there is no other way) and it was trecherous.

Surprise surprise, all this winter, that sidewalk was kept snow and ice free.

I do not care how much the owners were fined. If I fell and seriously hurt myself, suing them would be the only compensation I may or may not of had for lost income. A number of elderly people live in my building. I watched as they tried to traverse that sidewalk last year, walking with canes.

Sometimes the system works!

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 01:13 PM
I know that this thread is going to die a lonely death, lol.

There is a general culturally ingrained taboo, on reporting certain kinds of things to authorities. IMO, that is a shame.

ratgirldjh
March 13th, 2009, 01:36 PM
hmmm
i don't really know what you are getting at
but i am allergic to sooo many things - that i rarely try anything made by commerical companies these days.

my last attempts at trying something that was new - was v05 and white rain for CO-washing and it was horrible.

then i was also sensitive to shikakai and chandan powder.

btw - i regularly write emails to companies if i have been sensitive to their products.

usually for me it is the fragrances that bother me. but it appears that saponins (sp?) bother me too....

weird, how i can use chandrika soap and other 'smelly' soaps - but not ivory or even aveeno.

i have gone to a website like that and listed products that 'bothered' me.

btw - i try to refuse to use products that are tested on animals.

twilight
March 13th, 2009, 01:39 PM
ah, this is a canadian site. i think it's important for people (consumers) to have a way to give feedback about products, especially when it comes to adverse reactions! companies don't test this stuff--they rely on "previous studies" which 9 times out of 10 were funded by the manufacturer of the ingredient they are using. you can't trust them to make the right decision for you.

i'm sure we have something similar in the US, also. if more people cared enough to research their products they would probably think twice about many of them!

this is reminding me of the vaccine adverse event reporting system (http://vaers.hhs.gov/) here in the US, the problem with which is that only doctors are "supposed" to report these events, so many of them go unreported even if the patient comes in with a reaction. it's just not in the best interests of the docs to say bad things about vaccines.

Beldaran
March 13th, 2009, 01:42 PM
..it hadn't even been 2 hours yet, how many responses were you expecting?

Anyway, the one time I had a really bad reation to a product, I called the 1-800 number on the box and told them what happened. They requested I send the rest of the product back, and they sent me a replacement (it was a specific version of the product I had an issue with, the other worked fine) as well as coupons for at least $10 for their other products.

So I haven't seen any change in the product I had an issue with, being that my issue arrised from the fact that it wasn't very well advertised that there was menthol in the product I bought for my face, and I turned red from my eyebrows down to my mouth. (the product was applied on my nose.) But at least I got a refund of sorts and they made it right.

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 01:52 PM
hmmm
i don't really know what you are getting at
but i am allergic to sooo many things - that i rarely try anything made by commerical companies these days.

my last attempts at trying something that was new - was v05 and white rain for CO-washing and it was horrible.

then i was also sensitive to shikakai and chandan powder.

btw - i regularly write emails to companies if i have been sensitive to their products.

usually for me it is the fragrances that bother me. but it appears that saponins (sp?) bother me too....

weird, how i can use chandrika soap and other 'smelly' soaps - but not ivory or even aveeno.

i have gone to a website like that and listed products that 'bothered' me.

btw - i try to refuse to use products that are tested on animals.

Sorry if I was unclear.

I have had a reluctance to report, myself. I waited and waited and waited last year before reporting that condo. I even called the property manager of my own building to give him a heads up, that I had reported them but was not reporting my building, just stating that I now knew the regulations because the Super and I were both unsure of who was responsible for the sidewalks in front of buildings (we both thought it was the City).

The property manager argued with me. He thought that it was the City too. I told him that I had double checked and gave him the number to the City.

This year my building's sidewalks were trecherous. I called head office 3 times but did not report them. They argued again that it was the City's responsibility. It turns out that it is in the contract of the people they hired to do the sidewalks in question but they were not doing them.

I recently spoke with an elderly lady in my building. She is about 75 or so. Do you know what the propery manager told her when she complained this year? "Stay in then". She just looked at me and said "What am I supposed to do, stay in all winter?

Guess who is going to call the City only next year, if those sidewalks are not cleared? Me.

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 01:54 PM
ah, this is a canadian site. i think it's important for people (consumers) to have a way to give feedback about products, especially when it comes to adverse reactions! companies don't test this stuff--they rely on "previous studies" which 9 times out of 10 were funded by the manufacturer of the ingredient they are using. you can't trust them to make the right decision for you.

i'm sure we have something similar in the US, also. if more people cared enough to research their products they would probably think twice about many of them!

this is reminding me of the vaccine adverse event reporting system (http://vaers.hhs.gov/) here in the US, the problem with which is that only doctors are "supposed" to report these events, so many of them go unreported even if the patient comes in with a reaction. it's just not in the best interests of the docs to say bad things about vaccines.


This link from the first post is for the U.S. I posted both.

"Why should I report?
The testing that helps to establish the safety of products, such as drugs and medical devices, is typically conducted on small groups before FDA approves the products for sale. Some problems can remain unknown, only to be discovered when a product is used by a large number of people.
When problems with FDA-regulated products occur, the agency wants to know about them and has several ways for the public to make reports. Timely reporting by consumers, health professionals, and FDA-regulated companies allows the agency to take prompt action. The agency evaluates each report to determine how serious the problem is, and, if necessary, may request additional information from the person who filed the report before taking action."
ttp://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/problem.html

The doctors have an ethical dilemma then about vaccines. I would like to think that they will make the right (to me) choice and report.

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 02:01 PM
..it hadn't even been 2 hours yet, how many responses were you expecting?

Anyway, the one time I had a really bad reation to a product, I called the 1-800 number on the box and told them what happened. They requested I send the rest of the product back, and they sent me a replacement (it was a specific version of the product I had an issue with, the other worked fine) as well as coupons for at least $10 for their other products.

So I haven't seen any change in the product I had an issue with, being that my issue arrised from the fact that it wasn't very well advertised that there was menthol in the product I bought for my face, and I turned red from my eyebrows down to my mouth. (the product was applied on my nose.) But at least I got a refund of sorts and they made it right.

You are right. I must be impatient today.

I think that it is great that companies take responsibility for their products and have customer service policies that actually make the consumer feel that their reaction matters. Not all companies do that.

The fact that the advertising did not make the menthol that you reacted to apparent enough, does definitely matter, and your contacting them hopefully made a difference in that.

Beldaran
March 13th, 2009, 02:04 PM
Nope, I haven't seen a change in the product packaging. They still give no hint that there is anything close to menthol in it. Even a note with "fresh minty smell" would have tipped me off. But nope.

ratgirldjh
March 13th, 2009, 02:06 PM
i am actually in the apt. rental business.
we own and rent apts. and warehouses to people.

while we don't have snow here - if we did we would probably clear it off for our tenants.

we try to help them all we can; and we have maintenance people esp. for that purpose; plus we would not want anyone to fall down and hurt themselves if for no other reason than that they could sue us...

is there anything in your lease that says they are supposed to clear the sidewalks of snow?

definitely call the city - i'm suprised, actually, that the city doesn't take care of it - aren't sidewalks in cities government property, actually?

hmmm - you are in canada - it may be different there

here - the road we have 'used' to be 'our' responsibility. now that it has gotten to be bigger and we are now in the city limits - the city makes sure our road is paved and safe.
but our parking lots and driveways are our own responsibility. and our sidewalks are our responsibility too.

maybe you could get a petition of all the tenants that live there to get them to maintain the sidewalks safely in the winter?

good luck :)

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Nope, I haven't seen a change in the product packaging. They still give no hint that there is anything close to menthol in it. Even a note with "fresh minty smell" would have tipped me off. But nope.

I would just contact them again and tell them that you were very pleased with how you were treated about the issue but that the reason you bought that version of the product in the first place, is because you thought that it was safe for you.

If you point out (probably for the 2nd time) that the advertising is a strong issue in this, someone may actually listen, as this time, you are not looking to be (you were not necessarily looking for that last time), compensated.

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 02:19 PM
i am actually in the apt. rental business.
we own and rent apts. and warehouses to people.

while we don't have snow here - if we did we would probably clear it off for our tenants.

we try to help them all we can; and we have maintenance people esp. for that purpose; plus we would not want anyone to fall down and hurt themselves if for no other reason than that they could sue us...

is there anything in your lease that says they are supposed to clear the sidewalks of snow?

definitely call the city - i'm suprised, actually, that the city doesn't take care of it - aren't sidewalks in cities government property, actually?

hmmm - you are in canada - it may be different there

here - the road we have 'used' to be 'our' responsibility. now that it has gotten to be bigger and we are now in the city limits - the city makes sure our road is paved and safe.
but our parking lots and driveways are our own responsibility. and our sidewalks are our responsibility too.

maybe you could get a petition of all the tenants that live there to get them to maintain the sidewalks safely in the winter?

good luck :)

In Canada this is a by-law issue, not a lease issue. Trust me, one fine from the City next year and those sidewalks will be kept clean. That comment to the elderly woman, was the last straw for me.

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 02:49 PM
Years ago, when I reacted so badly to the conditioner that changed the way my scalp reacts to a number of products now, I made no report. The hotline for the company just told me to stop using the product. No kidding. I asked if there had been my kind of reaction to the product line and I was told yes. I did not ask for and they did not offer, any kind of compensation, whatsoever.

I do not know if there was any government system, for consumer reporting of adverse reactions to cosmetics then. This was pre internet for me.

I am aware of it now though and if anything like this happens again I will still call/contact the company. Depending on how they respond, I may just report to them, or report to the government agency anyway, as well.

ktani
March 14th, 2009, 12:52 PM
I have only asked for compensation from 2 companies in my life, for bad customer service and neither involved cosmetics.

One is my internet provider from hell, which has actually improved their service. I got 3 months free service and I earned that, lol. I also now "charge" them for down time (their idea actually after I mentioned that I should as a joke). I let them offer the discount for time I have reported to their technical department for the record, and we discuss it (accounting and me).

The second is my computer customer service people, when a rep was waaay out of line. My calls were recorded and I got a rebate in coupons after purchasing customer support time. I simply did not let it go. The rebate was a negotiated compromise, based on my taped calls (the rep who got me the rebate, actually tried to get me more).

I did not report either company to any agency.

Sissy
March 14th, 2009, 12:59 PM
Sorry if I was unclear.

I have had a reluctance to report, myself. I waited and waited and waited last year before reporting that condo. I even called the property manager of my own building to give him a heads up, that I had reported them but was not reporting my building, just stating that I now knew the regulations because the Super and I were both unsure of who was responsible for the sidewalks in front of buildings (we both thought it was the City).

The property manager argued with me. He thought that it was the City too. I told him that I had double checked and gave him the number to the City.

This year my building's sidewalks were trecherous. I called head office 3 times but did not report them. They argued again that it was the City's responsibility. It turns out that it is in the contract of the people they hired to do the sidewalks in question but they were not doing them.

I recently spoke with an elderly lady in my building. She is about 75 or so. Do you know what the propery manager told her when she complained this year? "Stay in then". She just looked at me and said "What am I supposed to do, stay in all winter?

Guess who is going to call the City only next year, if those sidewalks are not cleared? Me.

yeah, you did the right thing. I would have reported it much sooner. I live with the feeling that once someone has been given notice of the issue and still doesn't correct it then it's time to take it further. Otherwise, you'll get walked all over in this life. I come from a long line of law enforcement (lots of family involved in police work). I have always been what I would consider a good citizen in terms of reporting wrong doing I'm seeing (so long as it is safe to do so). If I see a person driving strangely I report it. I hope I have taken a few drunk drivers off the rode before they could seriously hurt someone.

Sissy
March 14th, 2009, 01:02 PM
I have only asked for compensation from 2 companies in my life, for bad customer service and neither involved cosmetics.

One is my internet provider from hell, which has actually improved their service. I got 3 months free service and I earned that, lol. I also now "charge" them for down time (their idea actually after I mentioned that I should as a joke). I let them offer the discount for time I have reported to their technical department for the record, and we discuss it (accounting and me).

The second is my computer customer service people, when a rep was waaay out of line. My calls were recorded and I got a rebate in coupons after purchasing customer support time. I simply did not let it go. The rebate was a negotiated compromise, based on my taped calls (the rep who got me the rebate, actually tried to get me more).

I did not report either company to any agency.

yeah, I don't let stuff like that go either. I was having a hard time with my Internet Service Provider a couple years back and it was at a time when my husband and I were separated UK and US and needed to use Skype everyday. Having reliable, high speed internet was of utmost importance to me. I complained and complained and was shrugged off several times. I was also being billed improperly. Finally both issues were resolved and I was issued several credits. One lady got so tired of arguing and trying to explain her points against my points that she issued me $80 credit which gave me like 2 months of Internet and telephone free.

ktani
March 14th, 2009, 01:04 PM
yeah, you did the right thing. I would have reported it much sooner. I live with the feeling that once someone has been given notice of the issue and still doesn't correct it then it's time to take it further. Otherwise, you'll get walked all over in this life. I come from a long line of law enforcement (lots of family involved in police work). I have always been what I would consider a good citizen in terms of reporting wrong doing I'm seeing (so long as it is safe to do so). If I see a person driving strangely I report it. I hope I have taken a few drunk drivers off the rode before they could seriously hurt someone.

That is fantastic!

I did report a business years ago for the same reason but I did the same things. I waited too long IMO, and I made sure that I was right first, by finding out what the by-law was (in this case the owner was renovating the building to move in but that still made him liable even though he was not on the premises yet).

Sissy
March 14th, 2009, 01:09 PM
the bottom line is... it pays to complain. Now, everytime I call up a company I start out very politely but if they give me an issue then I calmly, politely, but FIRMLY tell them that this is not acceptable. Recently, my husband called our mortgage company as they sent us our monthly bill after it was due! They told him it's because they switched us over to paperless statements (without our knowledge or agreement) and that we would get a negative on our credit report if the payment was not received by a certain date. They wouldn't let him make an over the phone payment without a $20 charge. He told me all this and I called them immediately and put it all on the line. I told them that we had NOT been informed of paperless statements and if we were in fact set up for paperless statements how come neither my husband or myself received an email to our inbox about this? I also told her I was very upset that my husband was treated in that manner when he called and that threatening us with a negative on our crediet (which is spotless by the way) was not appropriate. I told her that if we did in fact recieve any sort of penalty for the payment not arriving in time I would personally take it up with whatever agency I needed to. I told her I have made payments to their company for over 5 years (as long as I've owned my house) and have never once been late! She apologized promptly and said she had no clue why the person who took my husbands call had acted that way. She said that she would personally oversee this and would call me on Friday to let me know if the payment had been recieved. She said if the payment doesn't get there in time she would make sure there was no negatives or late fees associated with it. She made a note on the system and she did personally call me back on Friday to say the payment was recieved and everything was fine.

You just have to take the time to call them and deal with them. Honestly say what you expect and what is fair. If you get a snotty associate ask to speak to someone higher up.

Sissy
March 14th, 2009, 01:14 PM
That is fantastic!

I did report a business years ago for the same reason but I did the same things. I waited too long IMO, and I made sure that I was right first, by finding out what the by-law was (in this case the owner was renovating the building to move in but that still made him liable even though he was not on the premises yet).

Thanks. I mean yes, there is right and there is wrong. Luckily, many of us live with good values and treat each other properly with respect. We respect our environment and our neighbors rights. On the other hand, some people think they don't owe a thing to anyone and behave in reckless careless and inconsiderate manners. Those are the people that need to be put in check by the responsible citizens. Otherwise, they just continue on with their disrespectful, illegal, and dishonest ways. Like your sidewalk issue. Those sidewalk ordinances are put in place for the greater good... the safety of the community and the right of each person (young, old, disabled, etc) to walk on the sidewalk. I live by a elementary school and I am always sure to keep my sidewalk cleared so the kids can get to school safely. There are fines if your sidewalk isn't cleared but I'd clear mine even if there wasn't the threat of fines.

Sissy
March 14th, 2009, 01:16 PM
I have only asked for compensation from 2 companies in my life, for bad customer service and neither involved cosmetics.

Exactly. I mean I'm sure there are some cheap people out there who complain about EVERYTHING and try to get refunds or compensation when they aren't truly deserving of them. I know I'm not like that... I've only ever complained about companies when I truly feel I have been wronged by them. I don't even report bad customer service a lot of the time. I usually just let it go as I figure the person might be having a bad day.

ktani
March 14th, 2009, 01:16 PM
yeah, I don't let stuff like that go either. I was having a hard time with my Internet Service Provider a couple years back and it was at a time when my husband and I were separated UK and US and needed to use Skype everyday. Having reliable, high speed internet was of utmost importance to me. I complained and complained and was shrugged off several times. I was also being billed improperly. Finally both issues were resolved and I was issued several credits. One lady got so tired of arguing and trying to explain her points against my points that she issued me $80 credit which gave me like 2 months of Internet and telephone free.

They do not argue with me. When they see my file, they feel sorry for me, lol. I have the cell phone number to the rep in the President's office (he gave it to me). I am the Murphy's Law customer for everything that can go wrong and did.

Ironically enough I have had their cable TV for over 20 years, without one missed payment, free service or any problems, whatsoever. Just the internet is a very bad joke. I am paying for 24/7 hi-speed and I am receiving intermitent slow to no-speed.

ktani
March 14th, 2009, 01:24 PM
Exactly. I mean I'm sure there are some cheap people out there who complain about EVERYTHING and try to get refunds or compensation when they aren't truly deserving of them. I know I'm not like that... I've only ever complained about companies when I truly feel I have been wronged by them. I don't even report bad customer service a lot of the time. I usually just let it go as I figure the person might be having a bad day.

When I complain it is outrage at the lack of ethics, not a desire to get what I can from them. Those 2 cases were exceptions.

And when I get good customer service, I make it a point to report that to supervisors, to have that put on the record of the reps. I have done customer service work. I know about the stress involved. The superisors thank me and tell me how much it means to the reps. I know that too.

ktani
March 16th, 2009, 10:12 AM
This underlines the importance of one kind of reporting of adverse reactions, making the information available to as many people as possible, as quickly as possible.

Allergic contatact response to pure henna

2009
".... because of its low allerginicity, contact dermatitis to henna seems to be rare in individuals without occupational exposure .... majority of cases of allergic contact dermatitis to henna are associated with the application of coloring agents (usually PPD) to produce more intense coloration as well as to reduce fixation time .... Natural substances such as lemon oil, vinegar, and eucalyptus oil are added to obtain different shades .... Our patient used vinegar to enhance the effect of henna. .... there was no reaction at the site of vinegar only, there was a stronger reaction at the site of pure henna mixed with vinegar compared to henna alone. Vinegar might have contributed a nonspecific irritant effect or may cause a chemical change in the henna such that it is more allergenic."
http://dermatology.cdlib.org/1501/letters/henna/polat.html

ktani
March 16th, 2009, 01:56 PM
2007
"Can the reporting of adverse skin reactions to cosmetics be improved?
.... use of cosmetics is rising .... adverse reactions to these products are increasing. In Sweden, the Medical Products Agency .... keeps a voluntary reporting system for such adverse reactions. .... reporting is sparse, consisting almost only of cases with test-proven allergic contact dermatitis, thus under-reporting the more common irritant reactions.
Objective: .... aim of the study was to try to improve the reporting system.
Patients and Methods: Dermatologists at 3 dermatology departments used a structured protocol during the clinical investigation of 151 consecutive patients reporting skin reactions to cosmetics. .... protocol included symptoms, signs, affected body site, suspected products, and final diagnosis after patch testing. ....
Results: Allergic contact dermatitis was found in 28% of the patients .... irritant reactions were equally common at 27%.
Conclusions: Using this structured protocol .... cases of irritant dermatitis were also reported .... recommended that such a protocol is used as a standard to improve the reporting of adverse reactions to skin care products."
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119397973/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

ktani
March 16th, 2009, 02:49 PM
In the U.S.
"To report adverse reactions or other problems with FDA-regulated products, contact .... FDA district office consumer complaint coordinator for your geographic area. If you require .... use of a Relay Service, please call the Federal Relay Services (1-800-877-8339). This is a toll free relay service to call Federal agencies from TTY devices.
http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/complain.html

ktani
March 16th, 2009, 03:49 PM
Any small or home based business that makes and sells cosmetics is subject to the same safety regulations as the large companies and that is the way it should be, example, http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/guidance.html#cos.

No company should IMO, feel threatened by a reporting system for adverse reactions, that is to the benefit of everyone, including the vendor, especially if it can help correct any error that may be made.

ktani
March 21st, 2009, 08:40 AM
Sometimes, just documenting can be enough, if there is no reason to report something that is not an adverse reaction.

I just sent this to Canada Dry/Schweppes. Their email in reponse to my inquiry said that the latest their reply would be is 10 days (usually within 72 hours). I tested the club soda more than twice, and it matched what was given online for their club soda and club soda in general. I phoned them twice but this is now documented.

"It is well past 72 hours and 10 days, guys. It cannot be that difficult to answer a simple question, not a general question. What is the pH of your club soda?, not all of your seltzer waters by average, just club soda. I tested the pH myself and it matched what someone else said online. I got for a pH of, between 5.5 and 6, closer to 6. I cannot believe someone in one of your departments does not know the answer to this, or is it that you just do not want to answer this question? I do not consider this good customer service, but your phone reps are exemplary. This does not make me want to choose one of your brands over another if you just ignore a very simple consumer inquiry. I am not asking for free goods, just specific information. I am very disappointed."

ktani
March 21st, 2009, 08:50 AM
For any adverse reaction to a product, I suggest documenting everything you can before reporting or contacting the company involved. It goes to credibility and can make things go more smoothly. I am referring to things like where and when the product was purchased, the approximate dates the reaction started, etc., and of course, the specifics of the product itself.

K_Angel
March 21st, 2009, 09:01 AM
Thank you, Katani for the links! :)

I think it's so important to report adverse reactions to products to someone who tallies that kind of information for the betterment of the population. I figure, if I suffered and I let them know this can happen, it may save another person from the pain and suffering I went through.

Thanks for starting this thread! :flower:

ktani
March 21st, 2009, 09:08 AM
Thank you, Katani for the links! :)

I think it's so important to report adverse reactions to products to someone who tallies that kind of information for the betterment of the population. I figure, if I suffered and I let them know this can happen, it may save another person from the pain and suffering I went through.

Thanks for starting this thread! :flower:

You are most welcome and that is exactly what the reported information can help to do, prevent someone else from going through the same thing.